subtlety

[warm marlin]

I think our logger swapped sides since prog

Prob why

[glad rampart]

rotten loses to finality in aoe and st longer fights

whats the reason playing it

[surreal grove]

Guys is there any sound WA for combo points restoration?

[autumn condor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[surreal grove]

Thanks

[short aurora]

[tame terrace]

for m araz double on use, we just send nether normally ? or hold 18 for amp

[hollow spear]

Without autum, are we skipping 2nd flag on nexus?

[tepid trellis]

no

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[scenic plover]

is there anything i can do against the slow zones on dimensius plattform 2?

[warm marlin]

Vanish

[viral phoenix]

just double checking on the pulls w/ hulking bloodguards in arakara its best to use evsiscerate over black powder right?

even if the target count is high?

[warm goblet]

50% DR on everything around him

if he doesnt die, nothing else will

so my gut feeling says evis that fella to death

might not be the highest dps depending on target count, but will definitely speed up the key

[wild tide]

Can someone tell me why I dont get coup in my opener sometimes?

[scenic plover]

wdym vanish

also can i shadowstep when entering p3 dimmy?

[wet echo]

because it's not guaranteed?

[wild tide]

Its not?

Thats crazy

[wet echo]

if your 2p doesn't proc

[lilac stag]

Hulks & Scaffold dudes (floodgate) are basically your only evic targets in high target counts.

[wild tide]

It procs so much for me that i thought it was a bug or some shit xD

[wet echo]

you get 3/4 of the way to coup

you can also get the CD reset from autoattacks

but, once again, not guaranteed

[limpid sage]

are you sure you can't do it outside raid if you don't take summon?

I thought it was just dungeon shenanigans so you couldn't do prism cheese

[warm marlin]

vanish makes you immune to movement impairing effects for 3s

you save it for the first slow circle on plat2 so you can walk through it normally

also gives you ms from fade to nothing

[scenic plover]

so do i use it when in the slow or just before?

[warm marlin]

either

i press it when im about to walk through the slow

[scenic plover]

will be hard to get vanish out of my muscle memory

is not using vanish a big damage loss

[warm marlin]

no its just one shadowstrike out of cds

[shy flare]

What is the best way to determine trinket setup for m+? Dungeon slice sim or just looking at top 50 on murlok?

[limpid sage]

this late into the season top 50 murlok is best choice imo

[shy flare]

I’m late to the party. Played assa until 2 weeks ago and didn’t raid much. I need a netherprism like I need air

[hazy vigil]

when is vanish on the GCD and when is it not?

[wet echo]

never

[scenic plover]

i tried that, and it removed the slow for 1s and then i was instantly slowed again

[warm marlin]

if you break it with a gcd it prob will make you get slowed again

[maiden oar]

yeah i get into the puddle then press it and then gcd when im out of the puddle

and it works np

once i got so far ahead of pargoth that i shadowstriked behind him and died though

so be careful!

[hazy vigil]

why is it not able to be macro'd together with shadowstrike then?

[wet echo]

not sure about the technical side of it but it has a minor delay (way shorter than a GCD) from pressing it until it actually takes effect

and i might be imagining things but i feel like vanish worked way better in the past

[scenic plover]

aahhhh

very new to rogue didnt know how that worked

[brisk thunder]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[fossil forge]

[jagged hamlet]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[viral phoenix]

there's nothing wierd with dimensius hitbox when it comes to shadow cloens right?

nothing like rookery first boss yeah?

[short radish]

ignorance is bliss my friend

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

sectech on boss = not hitting adds
sectech on add = hits both

[viral phoenix]

GG

so what you like open on the boss than target swap on sec techs?

do you just hold dances for when ads are alive how does this play out functionally

[short radish]

personally i never target the add because they die fast enough

[tepid trellis]

i time all dances to adds

more overall dmg

[short radish]

im bad at the game and i cant click targets quick enough

[bleak night]

so real

[short radish]

[bleak night]

holy

[viral phoenix]

and it has to be close ads targeted yeah?

or does that not really matter

what is happening lol

[short radish]

well youre not going to target the add at the back

you'd just sectech off the melee one

[tepid trellis]

melee add

[viral phoenix]

kk cool

[tired dome]

Is it worth it to Rupture twice on the same target for Finality+RepShadows on Soul Hunters and keep Rupture up on all 3 targets? Or just Evis spam and not worry about 3rd Rupture?

[tepid trellis]

just keep up 3 ruptures

nothing more too it

[tired dome]

Okay, just wondering if it was worth it or Evis was more effective

[jagged hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-what-are-you-waiting-for-determined-angry-gif-5247874

[viral phoenix]

did prog dimensius tonight, question, does this apply to ads that are at 1 hp as well? is it worth to hit 1 hp mobs with sec tech to get clones to hit dimensius? (my raid is not killing them that evenly rn)

[short radish]

if the mob is 1hp

its dead* anyway

you cant make it deader

[viral phoenix]

right but its to make the clones hit the boss right? I didnt test if that worked or not

well I guess true or false would basically saccing the damage of the initial phys hit so then the clones attack land be worth it

in that scenario

[warm marlin]

the clones always hit the boss

casting on adds is just to kill them faster or pad

neither of which would benefit from secteccing a 1hp add

[viral phoenix]

ahhhhh ok that makes sense

[alpine wraith]

one thing you can do is hit the far add with your back to the other

and use storm

if you are a bit in the middle you hit dimmy + the 2 adds

[fleet wharf]

Hey, so for Dimmy, I have hero prism, hero lily and myth antennae. Do i still run prism and lily or stick with antennae?

[alpine wraith]

prism and antenna should be good

you will use prism with almost full stacks 1 plat then on amp

[fleet wharf]

Yea, that's what I figured. Thanks!

[alpine wraith]

good thing is if you killed araz next week you can buy forge

[upbeat sorrel]

we doing dimmy prog and im landing on p3 platform with like 4s on flag CD

is this normal or do i need blessing of autumn or something

[gilded jungle]

!logs

[fleet wharf]

i'm buying myth prism first, should I prio forge?

[alpine wraith]

hmm actually nvm yea

prism is better

[alpine wraith]

autumn does help yea otherwise it is very tight

or you need to do skip flying

and evasion to not get 1 tapped or have a tank that also does skip flying

but others have said it is doable

[warm marlin]

you can have it up right as amp starts or 1s away if you fly the perfect route and instacast + ahve your raid perfect hold

if you have it 4s away already i assume you're holding properly already so its prob just flying a bit better

[upbeat sorrel]

Oic what is the skip flying I'll have to look into that

[maiden oar]

https://www.twitch.tv/shindigwow/clip/RefinedObliqueMochaRitzMitz-sBqUAzLCNXbQeFMD

idk if this is what ryldd means but

this is what i do (stole from this clip) and it feels pretty fast

[warm marlin]

I got most of the route from shindig as well, think using skyward ascent after that last ring is faster though

I initially was just doing surge forward but another good flyer in our guild was catching up hard spamming ascent

[maiden oar]

ok ty for the tecch

i think next week its disaster time though because its just push as fast as u can

[upbeat sorrel]

Oic so we just get there turbo fast to send the flag before p3 a bit quicker

But yeah I guess it all goes out the window with turbo boost next week

[fossil forge]

Guys wat was the lore on saladbar

About not getting the thing u shoot the star with

[winter elbow]

!belt

[shut sphinx]

Yo guys, quick question — I’m running Mythic Netherprism and Mythic Antenna right now. Would swapping the Antenna for Heroic Eternal Weave be better? I’ve seen some top players using the Heroic Eternal Weave, so I’m wondering if it’s worth it.

[hoary bloom]

Depends if they own both like you do or if it’s pure st or m+?

[haughty rose]

that's a new record for me. tank pulled the pack with the snipers + the two 2 mob packs around big momma to the boss and i had 18 stacks of prism

[shut sphinx]

I own both in the raid

[upbeat garden]

Probably your big hitting abilities also crit

[keen yew]

if you mean like doing everything so you are not targeted, well saladar targets the tank and the 2 shades target the closest player and spawn behind the boss, so do ur best to not be there

[fossil forge]

Yea i meant that

So i just stay the fk away

[void ocean]

morning, Kings, what is the SQW value u folks play with?

@vale pine any takes on this

[mild lance]

I cant find any good or reputable sources on sub rogues, anyone know why there's so much less than ele/ret etc? are the stock wowhead/icyveins guides any good?

is the method guide the best one?

by stealthi

[limpid sage]

250 is the sweet spot for me

doesn't feel clunky and doesn't reduce amount of gcds I get with slight lag

[void ocean]

what is ur ltc

[limpid sage]

don't know that abbreviation

[void ocean]

latency

[limpid sage]

oh xd

like 30 on avg I think

• I have an mmo mouse so my buttons get spammed

[void ocean]

hmm dunno then, i played on 250 with same ltc and i had multiple weird behaviours

[limpid sage]

you shouldn't reasonably go lower than (1000/[clicks per second])+latency

[void ocean]

like my shadowstrike gets qued or smth, and if i want to quickly change my mind and go for coup, it still fires another SS and i lose global

[limpid sage]

ye you can go lower - only reason I put up my SQW is because of lag

(given you click fast enough ofc)

[void ocean]

i set it now on 100 and it does feel a lot smoother

yea i also have mmo mouse and i fckin click the shit out ot dem buttons

[limpid sage]

100 is very low though

I doubt you don't get some kinda added delay between your gcds with it that low

without accounting for latency you have to press your button 10 times a second to be guaranteed queueing a spell

[void ocean]

I'll pay attention how it behaves tonight in keys

[mild lance]

is this really the right aoe rotation?

[mystic bough]

Well yeah, guide list everything you need

[limpid sage]

ye why wouldn't it be?

[mild lance]

@mystic boughthere are multiple guides though, no? which one is the best

@limpid sageidk, some other rotation i tried seemed to deal more damage but maybe its a skill issue

[limpid sage]

iirc they all kinda say the same thing

[limpid sage]

what'd you do before?

[mild lance]

what is the reasoning behind shuriken storm > rupture > shuriken storm?

[limpid sage]

you spread ruptures until the mobs are gathered as it's one of your highest dmg finishers

you don't wanna send cds on 4 mobs when you can send it on 10 mobs 5 seconds later is the logic

[mild lance]

before I did

Stealth>shadowstrike>flagellation>rupture>SD>SoD>Thistle Tea > backstab > SB > ST > and then literally shadowstrike > eviscerate spam

seemed to deal more damage

but idk

seemed braindead though

it seems all u do is kinda just spam ss>evis and keeping track of the major cooldowns

idk, seems easier than ret even lol maybe im missing something

[hoary bloom]

you rupture when tanks is gathering and send cds once the pack is gathered

[limpid sage]

do you remember to prioritize coup over bp when it's up?

[mild lance]

@limpid sageill keep thjat in mind

the rotation i got from youtube doesnt even use BP which was kinda weird

but it did deal good admage

probably not as high as this stealthi guide tho if done right

@hoary bloomyeah makes sense, thx

i dont wanna spread rupture after this, right?

after the opener

since i assume everything should be dead at that point

idk BP seems kinda weak

i assume the set bonuses are quite strong for sub?

[limpid sage]

ye during downtime it still makes sense to spread rupture

iirc it does more dmg than sectec per cp

[limpid sage]

if you've got a prio target it's ethical dam to use evis on it instead of bp

[upbeat sorrel]

Ya depends how prio the target is

Our aoe damage is good anyway with sec tecs and coups

And nimble flurr

[limpid sage]

ye and if you reach target counts over 8, it's prob not worth it

[mild lance]

"Spread Rupture until the mobs are gathered then send your cooldowns"

on this step, what is teh best way to spread rupture (i.e. get enough cp)? shuriken storm?

[void ocean]

yes

[mild lance]

and if the mobs are already gathered, like the training dummies, should I skip this step?

or still wanna apply rupture?

[void ocean]

thats more of like a feelcraft, personally i prefer to put 2-3 ruptures

[mild lance]

alright, thanks a lot

[void ocean]

i even flag ad then spread 2-3 ruptures but with that u gotta pay attention on ur next window cause then flag and blades will be desynched a bit more

[limpid sage]

if they're already stacked I'd just send

[limpid sage]

ye + with TFD you don't really like that as you'll have more flagless dance

[hoary bloom]

after your cds you can but it depends on the remaining hp of the pack etc. I sometimes rupture on low hp for cd on sd if i messed up

[mild lance]

@limpid sageDo you skip the rupture in that step?

So SS > Evis > Flag > SS/TT/SoD ... etc

or do you still do rupture aafter flag?

@hoary bloomkk, makes sense

[limpid sage]

no you don't wanna flag into builder

[mild lance]

im doing around 7m at best on the 5 pack dummies in dornogal, but i only have 666 ilvl and no set bonuses yet

but it drops off to 4-5m after that

on my ele i peak at 17-18m with 690 and 3 set pieces

[limpid sage]

and I'd prob do SS>Flag>Rupture>Dance>Backstab>cds+sectec

[mild lance]

but does that seem par for the course?

[limpid sage]

ye we're not ele xd

[mild lance]

ele dmg drops off fast tho lol and has no dmg outside of ascension

just trying to feel out some classes before midnight

[limpid sage]

I'd gear up and play a bit before trying to minmax

it'll come naturally for the most part

[mild lance]

i want to play rogue but i fear outlaw will be meta in m+ and i hate outlaw

@limpid sageyeah for sure, but i'm not new to wow so i want to get at least a decent rotation going early so i know what to expect

ret was stupid, pumping more damage than any other of the classes i tried with no effort

ele sham is too much piano turret idk

[mild lance]

I see what u mean now, flag shoudl wlays be into spender

looking at the tooltip lol

[ruby ginkgo]

i basically did this all keys. But i saw people just using BP and only using Evis when Coup is available ... besides prio dmg, above which target count this is better?

[errant steeple]

look pretty good but u can optimise it a little with using your flag before applying 2-3 ruptures before going crazy with your cds

[limpid sage]

4+ you BP over Evis

[ruby ginkgo]

Okay, but i still build with SS to generate Unseen Blade right?

S*shadowstrike not Shuriken Storm

[errant steeple]

alwasy shadow strike during shadow dance execept when u need combo points between 2 coup de grace

[ruby ginkgo]

Thank you!

[errant steeple]

and backstab on first ofc

[tidal marsh]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[ruby ginkgo]

yes sure

[errant steeple]

but using BP is padding on some case

like if u have arcane + dh dps in ur key

i would prefer using bp because they both have some funnel to prio dmg

if im playing with boomi or something like this i ll do more evis to win time even if im lower overall

[limpid sage]

on stuff like shard of halkias I just default to evis>bp

cba singletargetting for 20+ seconds

[ruby ginkgo]

yes i guess halkias / minibosses in priory its a nobrainer

[raw flicker]

gear tunned on versa/mastery/crit. In practice doing much better as assassination on keys around 12-13 (rogue is my alt). Not sure if Sub is more tank dependant since I see myself holding cds for big pulls while tank is getting 2-3-4 adds.

this 8.5M is kind artificial for me.

[wet echo]

bad tanks make playing sub miserable

chad tanks who pull big for your CDs are my source of dopamine

[hoary orchid]

hey guys, is there any channel for remix? i had a question if i should just go full mastery or aim to 100% crit

[haughty rose]

yo adding onto this:

in aoe situations isn't it better to flag and then rupture 3 times to have the flag buff ready earlier? i found that rupturing 3 times with flag up is ideal but maybe the science says something else

[queen kraken]

Idk the science behind it but ull create some gap between flag and first sectec unless u delay flag later which in Return may result in lost usages

[limpid sage]

you lose out on dance+flag overlap if you have first dance or would be able to dance 3x back to back

[wet echo]

with supercharger and potential coup hits, flag stacks are a non-issue

3 finishers and you're capped

with some luck, you get to 30 stacks in 4 GCDs

[runic trail]

There's a legion remix thread in general chat

[kindred compass]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[plush roost]

You desync your flag and you stack it so fast its kinda w.e

The only niche advanved thing in aoe with flag u can do is if you start a pack with 10-15 seconds left on flag cd and both dances ready u can spend a global during tfd to flag and start your cds 5 seconds "early" and still maintain the buff through your dances and both sec tecs

It can be insane burst because:

Everything is ruptured
Youre likely to have couped so you have 30-42% finisher amp already
Sec tec cdr is so fast that it is up in time and results in 2 30 stack sec tecs with 15+ flawless stacks each

Its basically triple dancing

And prism is 20 seconds as well so you maintain value with it

[hallow night]

Anyone mind looking at my logs a bit and looking for what I’m not understanding?

I’m good at aoe, but I’m really bad at single target and I’m not sure why

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XCKaDpMc2dNj9PGr?fight=11&type=damage-done

[vale pine]

200-250 or default, there isn't rly a reason to set it lower than that

[vale pine]

all 3 (method, iv, wowhead) are good

[haughty rose]

when playing HoA, which talent should i drop for improved wound poison? either rushed setup, iron stomach or leeching poison

[hallow night]

I have a 97 soul binder so I know how to do aoe.

I think my mini goes are just bad in single target encounters

[limpid sage]

this can also mean that you're just allowed to pad btw

[hallow night]

I think I’m not consistently combining 2 shadow dances between the major goes

To roll the flawless buff into the second sec tech

I also have 94 avg in heroic so I know how to play on a basic level

But I’m missing something and idk what it is on these mythic st bosses

[azure thicket]

convince tank to pull adds into boss

end fight before pad averages out

[void ocean]

heres one super noob question, but lust reduces our gcd, right?

or is it capped to 1s?

[warm marlin]

No energy spec has reduced gcd based on haste

Except outlaw with AR up

[void ocean]

oh

[warm marlin]

Energy is historically supposed to limit your gcd instead and haste giving you more energy reduces it indirectly, but obviously that isn’t how wow works anymore

[void ocean]

aye, tnx

im still doing my napkin math in terms of SQW

everyone everywhere says i shouldnt lower it from 200-250 but with 100 just feels smooth as babys ass

did one key and didnt have one unwanted SS, tho the sample aint rly that general

[warm marlin]

You have to really mash your keys to not drop micro globals with 100 SQW

I used to play 250 until an extended period of outlaw gaming where I dropped it to 150, think 200 is my sweet spot

I don’t really send unintentional globals anymore

[void ocean]

ye i guess i will have to test it a bit

the thing is i use mmo mouse and i spam my builder button a lot, like probably 4-6 times during gcd

but my finisher (evis) is on a mouse wheel up so its defo not the case of confusing buttons or smth

and from time to time i do start to try dumping my finisher and nothing happens, meanwhile i hear shadowstrike going off

so yea, hitting 7cp shadowstrike during burst can be quite annoyin... might be my mouse is bugged or smth, not sure

this is one of my openers last night where it happened

[limpid sage]

wait is it like this for feral as well

I just checked and shred was 1 gcd

[warm marlin]

Feral, ww should both also be static 1s yes

[limpid sage]

crazy that I didn't know this

having mained both xd

[warm marlin]

Blizzard tooltips are of course very good at explaining this

[limpid sage]

but makes sense that they'd ignore haste so much until recently

[warm marlin]

it’s just a game feature that you kinda have to know

[limpid sage]

:^)

[warm marlin]

Outlaw AR reducing gcd isn’t in the tooltip either

Nor is the exact haste amount required of 25% stated anywhere except the patch notes where they added it in tww beta

[limpid sage]

actually crazy that they haven't updated the tooltips or given some kinda indicator for mechanics like this

when you think about how hard they're trying to bring new people on board

[digital aspen]

if you didnt get an answer, i personally drop shadowrunner

[warm marlin]

“You shouldn’t need to read a guide to figure out how to maximize your class”

[north schooner]

it's almost as if it's a half-assed attempt

[limpid sage]

you need to wait with using cds till your next gcd is up. Here you waste around 1 second of sblades+prism (even though it's just 1 stack) on autoattacking and it seems to be a pattern as well further into the timeline

obviously it's not the whole diff, but just from taking a quick glance at it

ye you often waste time in dances

[hallow night]

What should I set my spell queue window to?

Mine is 250 atm I think

[bleak night]

thats too high

should be at 249

[hallow night]

My binds are a bit weird

I have symbols on z, sec tech on 2, sdance on f2 (mouse), and blades on f5 (mouse)

Flag shift r

So if I enter dance with full combo I press f2 with right hand, symbol with left ring, and sec with left middle

Other wise I have shift s for dance + back stab

The tier set rng makes dance a lot harder to play mechanically

I tried sub without tier for the first time on remix and it was so easy lol

[limpid sage]

ye that sounds like an active handicap you've made for yourself

[hallow night]

There I can try to hold blades till I press 2

[limpid sage]

ye or just bind sectec to blades

that's what I've done

[hallow night]

I could make a shift 2 bind for it

[limpid sage]

your first gcd in blades should be sectec anyways

[hallow night]

I’m pressing back stab with dance for premed

[ancient leaf]

guys got a question about coup. i feel like sometimes i will only get the 2nd coup at the end of the dance window when it fades is worth spending the first coup on lesser cp so i can get that 2nd fully valued?

[hallow night]

But I’ll try to press f5 and 2 closer together

Or make a macro

[limpid sage]

you always just send coup at whatever cp you get

[hallow night]

Can you macro symbols in there too or does it break?

[limpid sage]

you can but I wouldn't do it

because ideally you want symbols running before sblades to farm ShT stacks

[hallow night]

Makes sense

Maybe I’m not pooling enough before blades

My best guess is my mini goes (2x dance no blades) are random and terrible

Is 3x dance in opener fine? Or with pot only?

I see like in araz most logs only 2x dance starting at about 20 seconds, but a couple logs send 3

[limpid sage]

wait are you Screw or volotas

you have 2 subs

[hallow night]

Volotas

I’m guessing the 3x dancers are assigned to soak

[limpid sage]

wdym

[hallow night]

Using 3 shadow dances in opener

Instead of 2

[limpid sage]

oh ye always

got lots of FF stacks going from opener

[hallow night]

If you look at araz it’s a mix and match

Of 3 dances and 4

[void ocean]

honestly, u should sit down and rethink ur binds when the season is over or so... u will have plenty of time to relearn them

[hallow night]

I probably won’t play sub again

[void ocean]

😄

[hallow night]

I just picked it up for the guild

[void ocean]

i mean, same goes for anything

[hallow night]

I think the binds are pretty good tbh

Putting cds on right hand and global on left lets me control it a bit more

I just didn’t know it mattered to gold blades there

[void ocean]

to each his own, i guess

[hallow night]

I just need to learn all the really small intricacies

[void ocean]

i like to leave my left hand for movement and modifiers, while right hand does most of the spells, cause of the mouse

i do have some keyboard binds tho, but only a few

[hallow night]

It’s an inversion of what I do lol

Most things that target something on left

Some mods like symbols on left

Mods like dance, blades, defensives etc on right

[void ocean]

well i have 19 buttons on my mouse it would be a shame not to utilise em

press most of them with just a simple move of a thumb

[hallow night]

I got 12 and I use them with shift version too

I tried control binds forever ago but hated them

[void ocean]

i even have lalt mods 😄

but only for like one i think

ctrl+mouse wheel down is healthstone and lalt+mouse wheeldown is a health pot

[hallow night]

I used to be a big pvper and dedicated part of my mouse for targeting and focusing

But it’s been bad for me since dragon flight

So I haven’t played

[void ocean]

same, used to have all those shadowstep + something macroes

long forgotten past

focus blind focus kick focus w/e

but i stopped when SL came

[hallow night]

I got a few glads in sl and bfa

But stopped at dragon flight with the crazy utility creep

Game just isn’t fun trying to play around someone rotating 8 utility and defensive just to die in one shot when you finally run out

[void ocean]

funny thing is, i became a pve player in SL so i could be better in pvp 😄

cause in bfa, especially in like 8.3 u rly needed to have some pve items to be good in pvp, like trinkets, weapons etc

so i decided to join raiding guild in SL, but then realised SL is probably the first exp where u dont need any pve items

[hallow night]

Bike meta lol

[void ocean]

yea, bike, drestagath or w/e the name was

i had none of those

[hallow night]

I played lock and raided in 8.3. Ended up playing double destro and flew to glad lmao

[void ocean]

lol

fear, fear fear fear... oooh u kicked this fear then heres chaos bolt of 100% of ur hp good bye xD

u kick chaos bolt u get feared and then chaos bolt, and if u kick fear... well...

[shrewd lantern]

yeah you played rmp with spites

and just win in opener on any lock not playing defensive corruption

[odd knoll]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[supple parrot]

what is better for m+ tea or cold blooded??

[shrewd lantern]

they're about the same

[mild lance]

How accurate is the Sample Ability Log on raidbots/simbot? does it show the oiptimal rotation?

[void ocean]

Havent rly, hpala was my last 2s partner

And 3s with hunt and rdrood

[vale pine]

it is fairly good, but due to how simulations work can show some weirdness

[mild lance]

So how do you guys learn the rotation? should I read all talents first and then log my ability/button sequence?

is there a good addon for logging ability sequence?

[shrewd lantern]

practice

[mild lance]

yes but u need to nkow what ur doing wrong, no? lol

[shrewd lantern]

log yourslelf then

you should always read the talents though

[warm marlin]

Wowhead guide is accurate, there isn’t too much mechanical difficulty to executing your burst windows. Learn the opener, redo it every 90s, learn how to manage and move your miniburst windows outside of your 90s (i.e. 2 dance outside 1 dance outside repeat) press cds when adds spawn

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[mild lance]

what is this@wicked jolt log tool?

[uneven scarab]

warcraftlogs?

[lusty solar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[velvet hawk]

Any reason why to use cb over tea?

[haughty rose]

why is that? i love the speed gain for tfd actually

[haughty rose]

more damage if the sim says so. i did many sims and CB always came out on top.

• it's way more satisfying

[languid harness]

Does secret techniques snapshot the buffs from flag, shadow dance, etc.?

For the hits after the initial one

[vale pine]

secret does not snapshot

[languid harness]

Rip, okay thanks

[wet echo]

"snapshots" CB tho

[mystic ether]

Is a second myth track dagger worth it from vault? Or just take the gem? Everything else is ass

[tidal marsh]

I mean

If it's an upgrade over what you have, take it

You can take a socket any week

[alpine wraith]

unless you want to move the embellish from wep

it is usually not that good

but socket is also not huge so whatever you prefer

[mystic ether]

Isn't this statement very near-sighted? Don't you want to get upgrades for the future? Not just for now?

[hazy breach]

A socket is neither of those really

Theyre inconsequential as fuck, if you can take anything else that gives you dps you dont want to take a socket

[mild lance]

which set obnus is better?

2 or 4?

[left ledge]

4 because it includes 2?

i dont get it

[mild lance]

which one gives a bigger dps boost

[left ledge]

you'll get a bigger boost with the four set

the two set serves to set up the four set

you're going to more than double your coup counts basically

[tepid trellis]

0set to 2set is around like 12%

and 2set to 4set is around 17-19%

[mild lance]

@tepid trellisNice, thx!

do i always use sectec only with SB and SD?

[tepid trellis]

once per shadow dance used

[mild lance]

as in.. i save it for shadow dance?

both of them?

[tepid trellis]

general rule is, you always use 1x sectech per 1x shadow dance, they are always paired

[cursive oriole]

hi, sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, just joined the server. im trying to get into subtlety because i love the idea of the spec, but having trouble in pvp. whats the basics of opening on someone from stealth?

i tried looking through the method and icy veins, but felt a little lost

[swift tinsel]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/226359213427916800 they should be able to answer your pvp-related questions here

[cursive oriole]

thank you!

[proper stone]

hey guys, quick question - im obviously missing something...why are rogues using fok inside dances and also after 1st coup proc?
I thought it was, squeeze as many ambushes inside of dance rather then fok and just double use of coup?

[plain jay]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[proper stone]

ahh ic, ty

[haughty rose]

we use shuriken storm and shadowstrike instead of fok and ambush :p

fok and ambush is for L poison people

[fathom adder]

i am thinking about our nexusking progress. We tend to bait relatively near to the inner circle and run out nearly to the most outter one. In that situation, the boss is like 3 or 4 seconds out of range and jumps into the puddle when soaked. Thats also during the 2nd shadowdance of my cds into the pull. I am unsure how to play that. I did try to just stick as long as possible on the boss and sprint into the soak, losing like 2 gcds or just not using the 2nd dance asap and waiting for the soak to happen (claws afterwards etc) but that costs me dance during blades. How would you do it there?

[short aurora]

Flame tank

There is no reason your tank needs to be a roadrunner cosplay

[fathom adder]

they say thats how it is needed to be done, idk what needs to be played there as a tank

need to look into it then

[willow bobcat]

The soak doesnt need to be far from the boss at all. That being said if you cant convince your team to have the soak in closer you are probably SOL and just have to deal with it.

[fathom adder]

yeah we will see, arguments are mostly heard and it was chaotic anyway

ty

i think we run just before the drakes to soak so no beam goes through our soak because we baited them far away or sth like that

i am no expert on the fight yet myself

[haughty rose]

anyone playing sub in remix? i just got blades and even tho it says it in the tooltip, it doesn't generate full CP

[alpine wraith]

someone got hacked

[vale pine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hoary stag]

could anyone have time to help me out with what i am doing wrong during araz fight? tho my overall dmg seems to be lacking it is most evident on araz. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MWGQqnT8ajzDZPxV?fight=37&type=damage-done&source=59 (in general i tend to do 5 cp finishers unless it is sectech, and try to line up flag cds, from what i gathered by myself: my rupture uptime sux, symbols uptime between cd phases could be better, lining up double shadowdance for flag is abysmal)

[lilac stag]

we finish at 6+ not 5

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

its fine to finish earlier if you have coup up, especially on the 2nd (tier set) one outside of dance.

[lilac stag]

you're striking between coups

[hoary stag]

oh frick, didnt know that, thank you

[lilac stag]

when you have have adds up

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hoary stag]

thank you for those pointers, i appreciate it a lot

[mild lance]

do you guys use Cold Blood?

[glacial kraken]

yes

[vale pine]

yes

[dense perch]

!prekey

[pastel acorn]

Sinister strike doesnt work with blades

[left ledge]

^ it’s an oversight, blades works by whitelisting abilities to generate more cp

Eventually sinister strike becomes backstab for sub

Your sinister strike I believe won’t even do the shadow damage from blades either

[daring pike]

guys i m new to rogue guild needs me to play it, the guides all say not to macro Shadow Dance and SoD together but every log i check it seems they re macroed together. So can i save myself a button or no macro?

[left ledge]

It is better to not macro them together, there are niche situations in which they are not pressed at the same time

If you don’t care about optimal play you can macro them

[short aurora]

You can macro them and have them seperate

Thats how i do it

[mild lance]

waikt do we run both thistle tea and cb?

[dry zodiac]

No. CB in raid, either in m+. But only ever 1 at a time. Take deeper strat and supercharge always

[upbeat sorrel]

Most people just press them together but they're not macro'd

[left ledge]

Well he wants to save a button so I’m guessing he might not do this

But honestly I doubt you lose much by macroing them, might need a cast sequence or something to prevent multiple symbols usages if you spam the dance button

Our opener requires that you instantly dance again esp if you’re running tfd so that might be problematic for a simple macro

[mild lance]

@dry zodiacSo which one is better?

[left ledge]

Just play CB call it a day

Tea is marginally better for specifically aoe

[short aurora]

Cb in priory

Hitting that big sectech into a defend

[lilac stag]

Hit it into a reflect.

[supple verge]

I saw a hdh kill himself 100-0 on that reflect once

Legit gotta cloak it lol

[eager locust]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

going left is troll anyways

right is infinitely easier for everyone

[void ocean]

Id lie if I said it happened to me only once 😂

[void ocean]

Bruh boss fight when u go right is cancer

[left ledge]

you just kick?

have you tanked left side

the boss fight when you go left side is turbo dogshit for the tank

[void ocean]

Ye, no, im dps always, melee one

[left ledge]

you eventually start needing externals because of how fkin hard it hits

[void ocean]

And hate dancing around fckton of puddles

[left ledge]

even then it eventually just isnt enough

yeah i mean its inconvenient for you

but its just better

[void ocean]

Well

Sounds like a tank issue to me 😂

Just tank better, lol 😝

[left ledge]

yeah the issue is

you cant

eventually that boss fight just becomes a wall for tanks

maybe if you're a brewmaster

its okay

[void ocean]

I mean theres probably a hefty discrepancy between ur keys and mine 😂

So on my lvl its more of an annoyance

[left ledge]

yeah i mean sure i dont think right is the answer on all key levels

but in a coordinated group right is always better

[uneven scarab]

left blows cheeks when you go past anything above a 13

right is infinitely easier

[vale pine]

think we did left in our last 15

was in time iirc

but close

[mental shore]

!prekey

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[vale pine]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mild lance]

should i do anything to prevent downtime when i have like almost no energy and i feel like a limp dick for 30 seconds?

i dont really get it. i dont feel like im dealing that much damage. im using sectec with shadowdance and cold blood and shadow blades on cd

and always flag > rupture(?)

and always black powder on 4> mobs

is that it?

is there some trick im missing?

maybe im misplaying coup and unseen blades(?)

or is the trick to use coup with sectec?

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[mild lance]

it seems simple but i feel like im getting insanely outrdamaged by everyone else

alwasy third dps

[hazy breach]

No way of knowing without a log, but my guess is holding cds too much for boss/big pull. If your target will live for most of it just send

[lilac stag]

if you're talking keys, you're likely not agressive enough with your CDs. we are going to have downtime, but depending on key level you'll always have cds

you can also try running vigor and see if that is more enjoyable for you

[mild lance]

so just pop all offensives on cd?

@lilac stagyeah m+

how do i access my logs? everytime i enter a dungeon theres an option to log

and i always select yes but i have no idea which addon that is lol

[lilac stag]

There’s a cadence to m+. It’s one big encounter. I’m not popping dance + Sectech if a pack is at 4% health. I’m likely not saving it if blades is on CD and the pack is at 20% health

[mild lance]

so always blades with flag and
sectec with sd?

that's generally it?

[lilac stag]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[lilac stag]

Cycle dance/sod/sectech s much as possible while still having them ready for flag window

[limpid sage]

Upload them to warcraftlogs. If you have raiderio it should automatically log for you

[mild lance]

yes but where do i find them? @mild lance@mild lance

@limpid sage *

[mild lance]

Always two of each ready for flag + blades window?

[limpid sage]

Should be in your logs folder in retail

Along with all the other folders like Interface, WTF, etc. iirc?

[lilac stag]

1.5 dance, 1.4 symbols

Symbols is your limiting cd in keys

[mild lance]

@lilac stagHow come?

is there a reason not to put symbols with shadow dance?

in the same macro

theyh donmt share gcd it seems

[tepid trellis]

they arent always pressed at the same time

due to you wanting to supercharge sectech

[mild lance]

this is way too aids

i double my rogue's dps on my retri literally pressing only the shiniest button

asnd ignoring all mechanics

i dont even have enough keybinds atm for sub to make it work and i've been 2.4k rating in arena

what is even the point of this?

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/despair-suffer-suffering-sad-sad-quotes-gif-14270258133567956444

[mild lance]

not even kidding, hopped on my retri just now, havent even put everything on my bars due to changing my interface

almost 2x dps at just 5 more ilvl

with no effort

just facerolling

[tepid trellis]

i quite enjoy the complexity

[mild lance]

the issue is, its not enjoyable or balanced complexity if u cant do it with the default interface

fully agree with blzizard, they've catered to addons too much

game's just cancer atm

have to download 10 addons and configure my ui for 2 days before i can even start to play

really dread coming back to wow every single time

[charred kestrel]

Keep the qq in the ret discord plz

[mild lance]

im not a ret main, i just tried it this season

[lilac stag]

What is preventing you from playing sub with the default setup? nothing

If you want turn on one button and face roll

or try assa

[wet echo]

there's literally nothing you can't do with base blizz UI

[lilac stag]

Shut down the rogue discord. Sub is difficult to learn!

[wet echo]

tbf, shutting down the discord if we don't get some midnight love could be the play

[lilac stag]

No one would notice if this discord closed.

[charred kestrel]

They would just say it

Vanished

[limpid sage]

You are comparing one of the harder specs with arguably the easiest spec in the game tbf

I agree that the harder a spec is, the more rewarding it should be though

[ancient vapor]

hey guys for m+ we are trickster ya ?

[limpid sage]

For everything except pvp

[shrewd lantern]

solo shuffle doesnt count

[ancient vapor]

Hmm I wonder if it’s worth starting my rogue

This late in season.

[tepid trellis]

well there is a long ass time until next expansion

[ancient vapor]

How long?

[tepid trellis]

like 4 months

[ancient vapor]

Ohh okay

Maybe I will

[shrewd lantern]

Theres never really a late time

to start something

Also like, didnt all the tourney players play sub with no addons

[alpine wraith]

yea lots of time

you used to not be able to use addons

[languid harness]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[alpine wraith]

because lots of tourneis were LANs

what you had were the blizz stock frame and all the pager bars

so if you see someone playing it is kinda silly

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah so they just got used to not playing with anything but default

and maybe gladius

[forest stump]

Am I crazy and going into the wrong direction, or unseen blade is not trackable by any means in blizz ui?

[mild lance]

Do we always backstab immediately after shadow dance?

[hazy breach]

Its not trackable right now either

Not accurately trackable anyway

[hazy breach]

When you have premeditation up (ie your first builder) you should backstab yes, however its fairly minor

And not something you realistically need to care much about until youve nailed the cooldowns

[mild lance]

@hazy breachand always sectec after that right? so 2 sdhadow deaths = 2 symbols and 2 sectecs

[shrewd lantern]

in an optimal opener yeah

also gives you disorienting to hopefully have coup near the end of first dance

[mild lance]

@shrewd lanternnot just opener, right? since in every big burst window we should do back to back shadow dances

[shrewd lantern]

Well yeah you want 2 of everything per burst sequence

[mild lance]

so flag > rupture > sd+sod > backstab > sectec > blades > rotation (ss/evis spam) > then the exact same sd+sod > backstab > sectec right?

if that makes sense

if so that explains my lack of damage before lol

now that im doing sd + symbols > backstab > sectec im doing a lot more damage

[shrewd lantern]

I mean you want to blades before the sectec goes off

Blades/on-use/racial

[hazy breach]

Use blades before sectech

[shrewd lantern]

can macro cb to sectec if still learning tbh

rather than trying to nail it on the second secret in dances

[orchid rampart]

on big momma is brest to hold burst for dmg phase or on rip?

[rough sigil]

Random question, how much of Sub's overall damage happens in the cd burst windows? Would we say like 70% in - 30% outside? Is it more or less? Just kinda curious and I am too high to look at data right now lmao.

[warm depot]

probably closer to 80-20 if i had to guess

[warm marlin]

are you including dance or just the 90s

[rough sigil]

I would say dance included, since I would probably have used two of them outside of the flag/blades window.

[warm marlin]

the current rank 1 fractillus log has 67.5% of their total damage occur during flagellation

dance is a bit more annoying to look at but its probably 90% if you include all of those as well

[proper stone]

Is CB build vs thistle build still kindve preference (thistle better aoe, CB more ST)?

Seeing so many ppl using thistle build now?

Thought they were somewhat even?

[alpine wraith]

one does more aoe the other more st

a dungeon is around 80% trash

wonder what will do better

the diff is not big tho between them like 1% each way

just vigor is very comfy

[mild lance]

How good is sub right now?

[alpine wraith]

not horrible not great

it does decent dmg but no good group buffs

[upbeat sorrel]

https://tenor.com/view/sometimes-maybe-good-sometimes-maybe-bad-sometimes-maybe-shit-not-good-feeling-shit-gif-16938525

[mild lance]

@alpine wraithso its not s-tier in m+?

[alpine wraith]

the dmg is fine but you need more to be s tier

[warm depot]

you gotta be able to contribute more than damage

unfortunately rogue does not offer much more than that

[shrewd lantern]

wow community logic is not s tier is f tier

[winter harbor]

oh its gonna happen

he dies tonight

[tepid trellis]

curse of ra

3 hours of wiping inc

[winter harbor]

nm guild disbanded after 11 p1 wipes

LFG

[hazy lichen]

hows sub rogue looking in midnight

[shrewd lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/coffin-dance-gif-21318528

[deep iron]

can anyone decent share their details

to see the top damages

[winter harbor]

ez

we all grey parsed

[shrewd lantern]

most vague statement

[deep iron]

i want a ss to see the details

of any good sub rogue

on any M+

i just need a baseline

[shrewd lantern]

better off checking wcl

to actually see casts

breakdowns dont tell much

Like these are both 12 ecos and dont really say anything besides how the run kind of went

@deep iron neither of these ss indicate anything since no casts are shown

[dawn summit]

boss died tho

[winter harbor]

yeah but is it even worth it if you dont parse well

[hoary stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[dawn summit]

just means you have to kill dimensius quickly so you can parse on reclear

game

[winter harbor]

helllll no, dimmy dies im shelfing my rogue i think

[hoary stag]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[wispy crystal]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[wispy crystal]

If we go into dance with 7 combo points stored up, can our opener be

dance-symbols-evis-backstab-sTec instead?

So we clear the initial 7 CP, and still have supercharger for the next finisher which is sTec

[rancid crow]

Can anything compare to the feeling of popping shroud of concealment just for the tank to attack the first pack anyway? 😮‍💨

[plush roost]

In cds? No. Outside of cds its "fine" but usually u want the unseen procs inside dance from disorienting so its worse

[kind edge]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[kind edge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lusty tangle]

gm guys if i want to parse 90s/100os while pugging as sub isn't the parse super reliant on kill timewindow to be able to parse high and is there a way to play optimaly assuming shitty killtimes during pug kills ?

[frigid schooner]

we got the damage but thats about it

[frigid schooner]

its all about kill timers

if the group sucks, you suck

[lusty tangle]

ok thank you for the quick reply

[magic fog]

Hey there!

May I ask, what are the most optimal settings for raidbots simming (m+)?

[fathom adder]

dungeonslice

[magic fog]

is this a bug? I can't change to dungeonslice? 😄

[wispy crystal]

Because ideally we want coup to be supercharged did I understand correctly?

[fathom adder]

idk, its under fight style

[magic fog]

that is what it looks here and I can't drop down / change or anything lol

Oh wow, it has to do w/ my AdLock lol
I disabled it - the .exe and the Chrome extension, now it works like yours... strange.

[wispy crystal]

im confused. in the 2nd Shadow Dance,

Dance is used to clear the 7 CP eviscerate, then symbols come a little later when about to use the 2nd sTec

[hazy breach]

In cds dance immediately after the first one ends

And symbols when sectech has 10 seconds or less left

(can do <15s if you have coup ready)

[willow pollen]

Hey fellow rogues, its been a while since i showed myself here (enjoying classic atm since tww didnt catch me at all)
Just wanted to let you know that im keeping the rogue flag high on anniversary servers 🌚🫶🏿

Hope all of you have a blast in TWW, cant wait to get back to retail HoF raiding with midnight

But nice to see that familiar faces are still here to this date 🫶🏿

[fallow nimbus]

That's some wierd looking rogues

[willow pollen]

Yeah i know, cant be asked to play rogue in classic/tbc cause its so insanely boring with how energy works in classic

Atleast if youre used to retail rogue

But still, keeping the retail rogue flag high on anni servers 🌚

[lilac stag]

@short radish gone to the dark side I see.

[short radish]

that's the SEA fimb

been pinged by like 2 other people

[lilac stag]

the what ?

[short radish]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[lilac stag]

I need a translation from roo fucker to English. Hahah

[hazy breach]

If he is the sea fim are you the land fim?

[lilac stag]

is there an air fim? space fim?

[short radish]

yeah

land down under

it was really wack in dragonflight when i first found out about him

because i was a hpal called Fimbulvter on FM

and he was also a hpal called Fimbulvter on barth

but i was higher IO than him so i was the superior fimb 😎

and i had already claimed all the fimb name variations when he came to FM

[mild lance]

1. should I ever use sectec outside of shadow dance + symbols?
2. i should always spend all combo points i have right before popping dance cuz the next builder gives 6 cps?

[vale pine]

1. no, its usually too risk

2. you can dance on high combo points too, so dance-finish-....

[mild lance]

thanks, i ahvent read every single talent so i will but what is it that makes the second dance last 8 seconds instead of 12?

[plush roost]

Well thats not what you asked, in cds during your second dance using sod on an eviscerate at 11~ seconds left for sec tec is fine since it will be enough cdr for the sectec to be supercharged

[plush roost]

The second coup being supercharged is a gain but not one we go out of our way to play for, its just nice to have happen

[vale pine]

yes, shadow dance is 8 sec.
The first dance makes your very first one 12 instead

(the first dance is the name of the talent)

[wispy crystal]

ty so much guys for the tips

really appreciate it, understand better now!

[mild lance]

@vale pinethx!

[vale pine]

no problem, and if you have more questions just ask

[light tiger]

How many cbs should be spent for the 2nd Coup?

[vale pine]

it does not matter as much

so can also finish on lower combo point values

you want to do so outside of dance usually, because the buff can run out before using else

[light tiger]

Ok thats what i was thinking too, Ty!

[mild lance]

@vale pinejust realized something, its not THAT important to pop symbols the next gcd after the SECOND dance, right? the same goes for second sectec. thge only thing thats important is that sectec is supercharged and iut can happen anyh time in time in the second dance, right? but preferrably as early as possible

cuz i was sitting on teh second dance a bit cuz sectec hadnt refreshed. but the second dance should be popped immediately after the other one, right?

[vale pine]

you essentially want symbols to empower your secret techniques with supercharger

it just aligns well to dance typically

[mild lance]

yeah, but I noticed during the 2x dance 2x symbols window, sectec is not available immediately when i pop the 2nd dance

but that doesnt mean i should hold the dance

[vale pine]

it is often delayed in your 2nd dance in 90 sec cooldowns

[mild lance]

i just need to make sure the sectec is supercharged and popped in the dance thats it

[vale pine]

which is why its not recommended to macro dance + symbols

you want to dance back to back

because of how short shadow blades is

only during 90 sec cooldowns ofc

[mild lance]

i dont really get supercharger. does it empower just the next finisher or all during the entire duration?

[vale pine]

it works like this

if you use symbols, you get two super charged combo points

you can store up to your maximum combo point amount, so if you use symbols two times, you have 4 of them as an example

if you use a finishing move after symbols, you consume one of these combo points

and the finisher is calculated as if you used <your combo point value> + 3 combo points

so if you finished on 5 combo points, it counts as 8

so if you had 4 supercharged combo points, and used one finisher, you have 3 left

and your next 3 finishers get the same +3 on top

this is exactly what happens in the opener

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[vale pine]

so, if we look at the opener, to visualize it

you use symbols pre pull, so get 2 of these combo points stored

[mild lance]

then I dont see why i cant just pop the symbols on dance with a macro together every time? since the only thing thats delayed is the sectec

[vale pine]

because of secret

[mild lance]

hmm

[vale pine]

you can pop it together outside of the 90 sec cooldowns

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

ill show you something

[mild lance]

on ret I just pop divine hammer and then whichever button glows more

hahaha

but yeah i get it, im gonna play iwth it a bit more on dummioes

definitely getting better. my dps improved by 30-40% yesterday in my m+ runs so that's nice

[vale pine]

this is the damage breakdown of our spells

secret technique is just a very big part of it

[mild lance]

but i assume i need to do some form of logging and reviewing to actualyl eek ouit the last damage

@vale pineis that the optimal breakdown?

[vale pine]

yes

what you ask for or compare here is

simply comfort

[mild lance]

should coup really be at the top? in ym damage meter its not even close

[vale pine]

if you want to macro it, just do so

its all about optimizations

[mild lance]

even woith the primary rotation

let me try

[vale pine]

and weather you are comfortable doing them

if you come from ret

[mild lance]

this is what i get on a dummy

[vale pine]

ret is, let me word it nicely, very straight forward with not a lot of things to optimize, it also does not punish you for mistakes

[mild lance]

yeah i know, ret is dumb

[vale pine]

so its basically the easiest spec in the game to play

and subtlety is the polar opposite

its the hardest to learn and master

[mild lance]

cleave dummies tho, 5 targets

[vale pine]

and for every mistake

[mild lance]

i just sent btw no rupture

[vale pine]

you lose a lot of damage

ret also got a insanely high amount of dev time, with subtlety being one of the specs with little dev time budget

[mild lance]

why is that lol?

well i guess cuz ret is more popular

[vale pine]

blizz has only certain time budgets

so they need to triage

what to spend time on

for rogue its

most time spend on assassiantion, then outlaw and subtlety of what time is left

and rogue is already the clas with low amounts of time to begin with

[mild lance]

monk seems the worst tho

i want to play monk

ww is just always garbage tho

[vale pine]

wow devs in general work on multiple classes, so one dev needs to split time between can go up to 12+ specs

how good/bad something is is tuning

which is a seperate discussion

you can make somehting good, without spending a lot of time on it

simply by giving it high numbers

[mild lance]

yeah i know, i've done some game dev in my spare time (im a web dev / cloud professionally)

but wow is its own beast entirely

but it seems monk is gettign no love lol

[limpid sage]

the paladin fantasy tends to be more popular than rogue fantasy for some reason

I personally don't find palas cool at all

[vale pine]

i think its a design problem

[mild lance]

@limpid sagewell... global religiosity is pretty high haha

sounds stupid but might play a role in that

[vale pine]

rogue is in tabletop rpgs, arpgs extremely popular

[mild lance]

divine warrior = cool

[vale pine]

there are multi million dollar games which specialise around rogue archetype gameplay

like assassinas creed

[mild lance]

@vale pinebut rogue classes are almost ALWAYS syhnonymous with complexity

in every game i've played htye are the hardest classes

in lol you got zed, yasuo etc

[limpid sage]

ye the thing is that the rogue fantasy is hard to balance

[mild lance]

in guild wars it was the same

[vale pine]

my theory is the following

[mild lance]

in supervive you had jin which was also mega hard

nobody would ever play ret if it was complex

it doesnt feel right lol

[vale pine]

• arpg's have a lot less concerns about balance, so they can make glass cannon builds and other trade offs to make rogue gameplay fun.
• Tabletop games have perception, stealth and trickery as an excellent way to impact storries

[limpid sage]

you could do a thousand cuts type rogue that would be easier to balance, but that's basically outlaw and no ones touching that

[vale pine]

but for mmorpgs

they essentially took the archetype of a glass cannon

then went to balance it

[mild lance]

@limpid sagecombat was pretty easy way back when

[vale pine]

to just do the same amount of damage any other spec/class does

which means, you are a glass cannon

but also do the same damage as someone who is not

[mild lance]

@vale pinei guess but glass cannons are alwasy gonna require more complexity

thew trade off is low survivability for big damage

and if u have big dmg, it shouldnt be easy to dish it out

[vale pine]

and you see this in remix

play a rogue

and compare it to a heavy armor class

rogue, you see 3 mobs

jump into them

die

[mild lance]

everything's gotten more complex tho

[vale pine]

you log on a heavy armor

you do the same with 6 mobs

[mild lance]

i've played on and off since vanilla and rogue was considered difficult back then but in hindsight

wit htaht kit

it was extremely simple lol

[vale pine]

and stand there with not even half hp after

[mild lance]

yeah

[vale pine]

so in a sense, the reason rogue is not appealing

is simply because of incompetence in design

at least thats my theory

[mild lance]

@vale pineyou dont think its inevitably complex due to the nature of melee glass cannons?

[vale pine]

i think complexity is fine

if your outcome is good

if you do twice the damage as a easy spec

but require twice the effort

thats rewarding

it also means, you don't get punish as hard for not playing optimal on the more complex class

as you might still do enough damage to be relevant

[limpid sage]

I personally like the idea of granting more utility to the classes with harder rotations

[vale pine]

but then more you shift it towards

both needing to do the absolute same output

then more i think its impossible to make it fun

[limpid sage]

and keeping dmg output kinda the same

[mild lance]

im not gonna lie... i had trouble doing well with ele shaman so i respect ele shamans. not sure if you've ever tried but they also have some very fun utility

stun totem, interrupt, move speed totem, nice defensives etc

have to keep up lightnign rod on multiple targets constantly, was kinda stressful

[vale pine]

btw. the problem is not exclusive to wow

final fantasies rogue archetype

also is more complex

[mild lance]

@limpid sagefor sure, that's whyt i enjoyed ele shaman

[vale pine]

and not super popular for similar reasons

[mild lance]

lots of utility

but htey are too turret-y

[vale pine]

i can't play ranged

[mild lance]

@vale pineyeah cuz the people who play assassin classes are usually interested in that kind of gameplay

[vale pine]

you just want a reward for expertise

[limpid sage]

I haven't played a caster properly since MoP xd

[vale pine]

because if its not there

you just punish everyone for no reason

[limpid sage]

closest thing is mm hunter

[vale pine]

which is i think why rogue isn't that popular

i tried: shadow priest, balance druit and mage

and i could not stand the gameplay of either

worse was balance

[limpid sage]

big fan of spriest previously

haven't touched it in a while

but I like dotting up lots of targets

[vale pine]

just to be clear, its just personal preference. Everyone likes diffrent things

[mild lance]

@vale pinei definitely like mage and think many people who enjoy rogue enjoy mage, too. but yeah, some people just don t wanna play casters

ele shaman is cool cuz elemental nukes

very very satisfying

but

idk you're so immobile

@limpid sagei like the idea of spriest too, always wanted to play one

but they are gimped 90% of the time

i also want to play monk and see a lot of overlap with rogue but ww always sucks too

[vale pine]

i did not play it with the DF updates, so maybe its better now

shadow priest was the most fun with surrender

but that was very short

doing multiple times the damage of your other raiders in a short damage window

was extremely satisfying, but also very much not balanced

[limpid sage]

if they just gave them a void warp ability or something during cds I'd def play them

like a blink with super short cd

[steel zinc]

STM its like adrenaline rush for outlaw rn

[wispy crystal]

For Araz is it normal to be top overall on add damage, but not on the boss?

felt like played this pretty well, top overall for adds by a mile. But damage on boss was much lower compared to other classes

i started shadow dancing 4s before the 100% dmg amp, so i try get 2 sTecs in during that part

[vale pine]

it sadly never went back to the fun version it wa before

[wispy crystal]

its a little confusing for damage amp, do i flag early 4s before AMP.
or just start flagging the moment the AMP begins