subtlety

[queen plinth]

Fury war, ret paladin I get wrist pain

[limpid sage]

I had like 43% unbuffed haste on my warr the other day because everything dropping just has extreme amounts of haste on it

it went to 81% when I fully stacked the rampage thingy + frenzied enrage

[queen plinth]

Yea would afk

Ain’t dealing with wrist pain

[limpid sage]

tbf it's like 10% more haste than what bis geared fury warrs have currently

35% haste above gcd cap when lusted

[stable ore]

whats the best trinket combo for st? araz+frac?

[lilac stag]

depends on fight timings.

or ya just play assa

for Pure ST

[vale pine]

prism + antenna
but
prism + forge is close in value

[opal basalt]

Nether Portal demo felt like a galaxy brain spec and I kinda liked it (even tho I’m not a huge caster fan)

[sweet turret]

Sub fellas, I enjoy playing rogue in m+ very much but in raid I think I cannot compete. Is this the general state of rogue right now?

[karmic harbor]

depends on the boss innit

[sweet turret]

In pure ST as example
At araz & dim sub is blasting as it seems

[native zodiac]

On st bosses you wont be able to compete

[karmic harbor]

fractilus ye we suck

[native zodiac]

Anything with adds/dmg amps you are good

[sweet turret]

Kinda odd, that rogue is not doing good in pure st

No power fantasy

[karmic harbor]

this is very funny to me

[sweet turret]

Ouff

[vale pine]

thats nothing new

we knew subtlety is literally one if not the worse pure st in the game

[hoary stag]

so in my vault is hero antenna, i have hero track lily and prism. ive simmed the vault, myth track memento sims higher, hero logic gate alpha sims higher, do i go via sims or go with antenna?

[supple quail]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[native zodiac]

god bless i dont have to buy the boe ring

[karmic harbor]

ye just funny that all the rogue specs are bottom 6

i thought assa did decent st

[vale pine]

well assassiantion does better

but both outlaw and assassiantion have a shared bug that impacts their output

we do have bugs too that do that, but subtlety is baseline tuned worse

[native zodiac]

the killtimer on frac is also playing against us now

[proven plover]

Its because i die on that fucking Boss each reclear

[vale pine]

how so

if i look at top logs, its within ~4-5 minutes

[vale pine]

the 3% buff should bring it down slightly soon, no?

[native zodiac]

ye

i think with the extended track and 3% buff next week it might be getting into good territory for us again

as soon as that timers hits 3:20 its gaming time

[vale pine]

ye, i feel like its not bad if timers go down

[native zodiac]

yeah defo

[vale pine]

90 sec cooldowns

make us slightly less sensitive

than higher ones

[native zodiac]

yup 3mins means also straight after our 18 stack prism if you are playing 1 on use

[vocal pine]

3% buff on what ?

[vale pine]

raid buff

[vocal pine]

oh ok

guys im still learning the spec and still not sure when to use heavy CDs in aoe fights like forgeweaver Araz

should I use it on opner and adds only ?

[lunar rain]

yo whats the add on that streamers uses, that tells you what spells they are pressing?

[vale pine]

you hold for adds

https://www.lorrgs.io/

^ this website is a great learning tool

[vocal pine]

so never use it in opener or single target ?

[vale pine]

as you can see how cooldowns are used

well the answer is

[vocal pine]

just use symbols of death and shadow dance ?

[vale pine]

you optimize your cooldowns

so you do both

you don't "ONLY" use your cooldowns on adds

and do nothing else

but you align your cooldowns smartly to be able to have the most damage on adds

the problem now i found most people have is

they have no clue how to use lorrgs

or a lack of understanding of subtlety cooldowns in general

most have both

so what i like to do is give this information on cooldown management

keep in mind, that i only wrote "dance" there, but its the cluster of symbols/secret/dance

the 4 dance - 3 dance - repeat is a very easy pattern you can practice, even if its not covering all edge cases

[native zodiac]

Imagine this tier is if shadowdust was still around, fuu would lose his mind

[main pawn]

Are there situations where you'd be sending sectec with only dance, only symbols, or alone?

[native zodiac]

Never with only dance, sometimes with only symbols or completely naked

[vale pine]

and you can easy see what i mean if you use the website above.
This is the first parse on one of the pure single target fights

you see the 4-3 pattern in the screenshot

but also a 4th one at the end of the fight

so why is this?

[main pawn]

I feel like I've had situations (only mass AoE) where the CDR of dance is enough that it comes back faster than symbols

[vale pine]

because of the extra symbols charges, the fight was about to end so you send your cooldowns

and knowing the above

you can also fast identify a probably mistake

the player likely had one symbols charge left at the end of the fight

but thats rly over optimizing it

[limpid sage]

blackmail your hpala

or blackmail someone into playing hpala

[vale pine]

you don't do blank secrets in aoe

its only a thing in single target

[native zodiac]

My pala already hates me when he gets the whisper on nexus and dim

[vale pine]

and even then, you probably shouldn't

see the log above

[limpid sage]

what why not

[vale pine]

it does not do a blank symbols

and its the #1 log

[vale pine]

you have more cooldown reduction

[limpid sage]

free sectec > not free sectec no?

[vale pine]

because storm generates full combo points

so you don't need to do blank symbols

you can align a dance to it

[limpid sage]

hmmmm

[stable ore]

its hard for me to know 100% when i should press stuff or not

[vale pine]

so in e.g. m+ you likely wouldn't

[limpid sage]

I feel like if I hit dummies I can send a free sectec sometimes

[vale pine]

thats because subtlety is unique in how it functions

ill explain why you and probably most others struggle

subtlety has a lot of nuances, other specs simply don't have

so you can't follow your learned gameplay patterns

this comes from a mix of things

Number 1 Cooldowns don't naturally line up

[karmic harbor]

trufigcd

[lunar rain]

ty!

[vale pine]

This is a big one because almost all classes have things naturally align, so having symbols on 25 sec vs. no other multiplicative of 25 is difficult

it does not help that we have dynamic cooldowns on two spells

and both of them are even diffrent

secret techniques has 1 sec cdr per combo point spend

shadow dance 0.5 sec

[stable ore]

so secret allwasy comes first no matter what?

[vale pine]

but this alone isn't enough to make you not align things

[vale pine]

secret is highest priority finisher in dance

[limpid sage]

as long as you supercharge it

it's ok

[vale pine]

so then there is
Number 2
Spells have stacks, shadow dance has 2 stacks, symbols of death has 3

this gives a dynamic where you can hold cooldowns for a specific moment with little loss.

[limpid sage]

so i.e. you have 7 cp and 10 sec cd on sectec left, you can send a finisher into sectec and still have sectec supercharged

[vale pine]

but also means this dynamic is nothing you do elsewhere

almost everyone who starts subtlety

just fires cooldowns as ready

and then wonders why the output is shit

this does not work, because you need 1.5 charges of shadow dance for your 90 sec cooldowns

and if you just fire everything asap

whats the default on most specs these days

[delicate stag]

do you need double dagger for sub?

[vale pine]

yes

[karmic harbor]

Yes

[delicate stag]

ty

[native zodiac]

@warm marlin just seen your nexus log

black powder on platform

[stable ore]

this seems so complicated, its so antinatural to hold off cds

my opener is super strign but then everything goes to shit for that i think

[vale pine]

and then there is the third thing, subtlety has a lot of small optimizations to know and interactions to learn

many are not intuitive

[leaden prairie]

wtf ..

[fallow nimbus]

Keeping the dynamic but also making it a bit more straightforward for beginners is the big dev task for sub and probably nothing will happen with midnight

[native zodiac]

Kinda crazy he got r1 by holding flag until 2:50 after on pull

[fallow nimbus]

Assa gets another tool from sub/outlaw and qol and that's about it

[native zodiac]

With autumn you could crank that even harder

[still depot]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[limpid sage]

did he go into platform with 8 supercharged or what

[native zodiac]

Nah just 18 stack prism

[grave mortar]

Why does Crit/Mastery sim so much better than mastery vers?

[native zodiac]

This is defo the way to parse now if your raidleader wont murder you after seeing what you done

[limpid sage]

dr on vers would do that

[karmic harbor]

prism on pull, is this guy trolling or what?

[fallow nimbus]

Which boss?

[native zodiac]

Nexus

[karmic harbor]

nexus

[vale pine]

i think you can't solve the inherent problem

or well two

[native zodiac]

You just black powder instead of hitting the titan

[limpid sage]

does he have forge

[fallow nimbus]

18stacks prism into adds?

[vale pine]

• People inherenlty want to use their cooldowns when they are up
• People want to spam buttons and not wait between cooldowns

[karmic harbor]

astral

but he wouldve had 1 more stack for platforms if he didnt use on pull

[limpid sage]

ig so ye

[native zodiac]

You can also squeeze in 1 more flag set if you have autumn

[vale pine]

and again, most classes are designed without these problems.
Stuff naturally aligns, so you can with minor delays just send, and spam buttons

[limpid sage]

don't you always send 18 stack into platform?

and then forge for amp or

[native zodiac]

Nah forge pull 1:30 prism forge playform prism amp

[limpid sage]

(I haven't gotten to platform part yet)

[native zodiac]

That was what ppl did on prog

[fallow nimbus]

Lets reduce flag and blades to 10sec, vanish gets down to 1.5mins for sub and triggers tfd, sectec becomes a stealth finisher. We dance every 30sec. Now we can spam stuff on cd

[vale pine]

i don't think you want to fundermentally change the spec

if anything, legion had the most satisfying one

where you had a very short but strong burst every ~25 sec

[fallow nimbus]

Legion tos

[vale pine]

yes

[limpid sage]

ig you could forge on pull, hold prism on second flag, send forge with a dance, have 18 stacks for platform and then forge amp

[stable ore]

is there a rule to use secret tech. alone? like if shadow dance has 20sec cd or sm?

[vale pine]

but also, the dev team stated the clearly don't want this damage pattern to return

it was probably for the same reason phased out quickly after legion

[fallow nimbus]

Dfa at mistress sassy

[native zodiac]

Youre better off not playing forge at that point im p sure

[tidal jacinth]

Hello guys.. i have a simple tricky question...when i play my rotation i feel like that i lose some gcd, sometimes i have not time to react a full combo points proc in dance to eviscerate back to back and other times it feels i do not press any button (but maybe i'm spamming shadow strike).... it feels weird...someone experienced same thing? i also tried to fix the spell queue window, maybe it is slightly better but not smooth. is it possible that is 60hz monitor fault?

[vale pine]

(they did say the same with funnel, and now assassiantion and arcane do very good funnel)

[limpid sage]

you don't think a 'naked' forge + dmg amp forge would outweigh?

[fallow nimbus]

What they say only counts for sub

[vale pine]

no, its the fault of bugs

coup de grace has a 1.2 sec gcd instead of 1 sec

you can see as a bug

[tidal jacinth]

AH

[vale pine]

and it is a 3 part attack, with 2nd and 3rd hit delayed

which means if you use coup

[tidal jacinth]

what the fuck

[native zodiac]

You always have to factor in a passive trinket would give you 8k mainstat + its passive on every cd set, a forge gives around 25k or so stats for 1 cd window

[vale pine]

it might happen that you get the refund triggered on the 2nd or 3rd hit

which is delayed

[native zodiac]

And its not like you will not have prism ready for the amp anyways

[vale pine]

to make matters wrose there is another bug with premeditation too^^

[fallow nimbus]

Use coup and then vanish, coup shoots you out of stealth

[maiden oar]

how many extra monsters during flag is equivalent to a 100% dmg amp anyway

[vale pine]

also just to add some natural latency

can also be seen as bugs

the 2p proc can be delayed slightly

[tidal jacinth]

holy shit... and there is not way to improve this behaviour right?

some trick or something

[vale pine]

nope

[maiden oar]

i was thinking of different 2x on use lineups w/ the 2nd flag at 2:50 but without knowing that info im not sure whats correct

[vale pine]

you sometimes just lose a gcd in dance

by how spells are currently implemented

[fallow nimbus]

Forge into bp add spam and then 18 stacks into amp should be fine

[limpid sage]

ye true + crit is more dmg per point than agi at this point

[vale pine]

you can see it as a pile of bugs

[tidal jacinth]

good job blizzard... btw thanks a lot @vale pine 🙂

[limpid sage]

forge does give a little bit of crit as well though :^)

[vale pine]

but also could say its intentional, because ... well its how they implemented it

(some things are easier to lable as bugs)

[fallow nimbus]

Imagine we had no bugs, how overpowered we would be, not as a class alone but as players aswell

[graceful osprey]

I like how sub plays, I just wish damage outside of CDs was a little better

[limpid sage]

1T ~5m
2T ~7.5m
3T ~10m

for me

so 3 targets ig

[maiden oar]

oh wtf

thats way lower than i thought

[limpid sage]

I mean our dmg scales crazy on low targets

[maiden oar]

yeah

i see

[limpid sage]

from 8 targets to 10 targets though:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qUagpsRjT7Nd8ukX3Mtkv6
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sPKsKgEzu9qHZvGxFCGPcr

nimble falls off pretty rapidly

for obvious reasons

only a ~4.5% increase of dmg when increasing target count by 25%

[maiden oar]

[maiden oar]

is this just for the duration of flag

or just 5min

[limpid sage]

no it's 5 min

[maiden oar]

oh ok

[limpid sage]

don't think it should change that much

[maiden oar]

[limpid sage]

maybe slightly more dmg amp favored since shadow blades turns to phys dmg through nimble

[maiden oar]

ah ok

[limpid sage]

ok nvm it's actually a pretty big difference

1T https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jWT2Fuaec5waNwXUgA3BiH
2T https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5yQWVuHGg7EGaoZoEvwbro
3T https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eayhe1TXBFZDugB3cqWK28
4T https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4eVEvKjx8QzyJgCe5CipHt

[autumn pawn]

there are somes bugs on sub spec too ???

[native zodiac]

"some"

[hazy breach]

[cosmic fossil]

sorry im kinda clueless about this flag and target count can u expand how that buff works?

[hazy breach]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[limpid sage]

we're just comparing if it's better to send cds during dmg amp vs higher target counts

[cosmic fossil]

ow i see ty

[limpid sage]

flag doesn't have a specific interaction with higher target counts as such

[autumn pawn]

oh thanks

[vocal pine]

I see he align all CD's together

[vale pine]

what you see on this is

how there are always 3-4 dances used in every 90 sec cycle

and how we stack up cooldowns

[tulip portal]

When using two on use trinkets in raids, is it just Araz (first blades+flag) > prism next flag + blades and then keep rotating too? it seems like some logs do that and some logs just send prism every time blades after first one and i guess last dance of the fight?

[limpid sage]

3-4?

isn't it 2-3 besides when it's the first send

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vale pine]

its 1-2 dances outside of blades/flag

[tulip portal]

ty

[limpid sage]

ahhh I misunderstood then

I thought I had missed something

[lunar rain]

Kinda new to this spec

Is our big damage coming from flawless form?

[lucid jackal]

Flag

[lunar rain]

i noticed i can get it up to around 39%

[hazy breach]

What do you mean by 39%

[lunar rain]

flawless form, makes your finsher stronger

[hazy breach]

Im aware what flawless form is '

[lunar rain]

So do i stack up flawless form before sending it?

[hazy breach]

you shouldnt be looking at your flawless form stacks

Its not something you base any decision around

[tulip portal]

You can hold coup before your flag dance (like 5-10 seconds)

if thats what you mean

[hazy breach]

Youre likely just sending your cooldowns incorrectly

If you feel like youre doing low damage

[lunar rain]

yeah i think youre right, im probably just doing it wrong

[limpid sage]

what is it then

[sharp hatch]

Can't sub have a one hand sword in one hand and the other a dagger or this doesn't work?

[lunar rain]

i can only get up to like 10 mil ST with full stack nether prism

where i see other rogues going way past the moon

[limpid sage]

have you read the wowhead guide

[lunar rain]

Yeah but its still complicated

[limpid sage]

or any of the guides, they're all pretty good

[lucid jackal]

Doesn't work

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[limpid sage]

you don't play around anything outside of what's mentioned in the guides

[hot ibex]

Trying out Sub - do you have any tips for a small WA that indicates beforehand that "next finisher will give max CP"?
I'm keep getting supprised and accidentaly shstrike instead of finisher

[limpid sage]

except encounter to encounter stuff

[lucid jackal]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[lucid jackal]

Mine changes color of the glow based on stack count

There's a few tho

[sweet turret]

Regarding shadowcraft & the loading of combo points from shadow techniques..:

Am I the only one, who thinks that it works very cluncy
It loads the combo point sometimes 1sec after my last finisher , when I already pressed the next builder

[limpid sage]

coup bug

[hot ibex]

Also, for m+ do we go for Tea (wowhead) or Cold blood (archon)?

[limpid sage]

every hit of coup triggers shadowcraft refund

[lucid jackal]

If you go from under 7, to 7 during the 3 swing of coup, it'll refund at the end of the swings rather than the start

[hazy breach]

Either is fine

[sweet turret]

It's a bug? I thought im dumb
Direct refund or none would be optimal , I have no problems with having the CB after the next finisher

[sweet turret]

That is dumb... The whole animation of the thing is dumb. Could be the same as evis & I would love kt

[limpid sage]

very dumb yes

[sweet turret]

I would love to play deathstalker..

I have the feeling my rogue is kinda looked while doing coup, feels just bad. Evis & sec tech feels great

[limpid sage]

hopefully they implement coup in our future hero tree

but it's a big void empowered evis or something

[sweet turret]

With no new animation at best

[limpid sage]

and doesn't deal dmg over multiple hits

[maiden oar]

ty

[hazy breach]

Have you tried it, especially on aoe

[limpid sage]

yw

[maiden oar]

i am full of wisdom now

[sweet turret]

I love sub, but I just don't enjoy the trickster gameplay... Sadge that Deathstalker can't compete in any way

[limpid sage]

me too

[sweet turret]

! spreadsheet

!spreadsheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Genuinely deathstalker feels significantly worse to play

[lucid jackal]

Trickster is like, perfect sub rogue lol

[hazy breach]

Especially now that you cant cancelaura darkest night

Youll just have to tank not having a hero talent for most of blades

[maiden oar]

i think they should make coup 2 hits and make the gcd faster

and maybe make it look cooler

[sweet turret]

You think? I like it as assa rogue

[lucid jackal]

Yeah deathstalker sin is good

For sub it's really bad

[hazy breach]

Well as assa rogue you press envenom and it does aoe damage

As sub you press eviscerate and it does nothing, so you dont want to press eviscerate

[sweet turret]

I could work for that, but 1 hit would be best

[hoary bloom]

how much is a socket approximately in numbers dps increase?

[hazy breach]

Blackpowder does more damage than darkest night eviscerate at 4 targets

[hazy breach]

Like 0.15% or so

[maiden oar]

i like the coup sfx

so i wanna hear multiple stabs still

im selfish

[sweet turret]

I mean with new balancing, make black powder work for it or something else

[hazy breach]

Well ofc if you massively change deathstalker it could be good

But right now it isnt

[crystal bone]

i took a socket from vault yesterday, 17k dps increase in patchwerk

[hoary bloom]

ty

had to take socket as well today

[hazy breach]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1143988582437101608/1422909883619086437/image.png?ex=68de6398&is=68dd1218&hm=ccfaacdb7d845aaaa5b899515011c0416d46fc65586b93baa4cda157623bf8ec&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=588&height=572

[maiden oar]

sockets are not that bad

[sweet turret]

Sound could be same, but the animation lock is not feeling good for me

[maiden oar]

i just dont like the longer gcd

[hoary bloom]

had some shit necks with haste

[maiden oar]

and the delayed refund being so late

so 2nd hit being faster + no 3rd hit and gcd being faster is good enough

[sweet turret]

100% agree, always shiit.. when you press build & right then the CB is coming up

[vocal pine]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[lucid jackal]

The delayed refund is skill expression

[maiden oar]

it is

but i wish it was less delayed

[sweet turret]

Lol

[hazy breach]

Surely it gets fixed with .5

[tepid trellis]

Doubt

[vale pine]

🚪 👈

[tepid trellis]

Midnight at best

[hazy breach]

Yep

Its joever

[lucid jackal]

Noobs pissed at skill expression being in sub

[maiden oar]

i think the delayed refund could be upside if less ticks and quicker refund

but its just delayed to the point where its annoying imo

stealthi coup bar helps a ton

[limpid sage]

I just read deathstalker talents

looks awesome wtf

how'd they mess it up this badly

[hazy breach]

I mean it should just be one hit to begin with

[hazy breach]

Its just flat +plague damage onto every spell

[maiden oar]

probably but i like how its more lenient with sht

[limpid sage]

yes but big evis and prio dmg

[maiden oar]

since easier to avoid ub munch without storm

if u go from 5 to 7 mid coup

wish could get that upside without being annoying

[hazy breach]

Ye but like i said BP is still better even at 4 targets, so you'd just sit with darkest night

And not use it on aoe

[limpid sage]

ye that's the part they messed up though

[maiden oar]

feels nice to auto to 7 before last hit of coup and get refund

[hazy breach]

And even if we would use it

[limpid sage]

could just have made it aoe

[maiden oar]

and not press storm

[hazy breach]

It feels awful

To use a pure ST spell

In big aoe

[plain ember]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[hazy breach]

Also clear the witnesses does insanely high damage

Like almost at BPs level

So the ideal way to play it is to strike and apply 3 marks > bp (2 marks) > storm (to use ctw) > bp (1 mark) > strike another target to reset your marks to 3 and proc ctw again > repeat

[limpid sage]

how does rotten interact with clear the witnesses

[hazy breach]

It doesnt

Nothing interacts with anything in deathstalker

[tepid trellis]

Be Nice eleem DS is still in its alpha stage

[short radish]

that'd go against subs primary design of delayed damage

[hazy breach]

Well yeah it hasnt changed since then

So youre right

Or well, it did get worse

With the DN mark bug

[karmic harbor]

they suck when you already have sockets in all your gear

[hazy breach]

So it was actually better before

[maiden oar]

ok yea

[limpid sage]

it's weird that they decided DN has to be used on Evis and then didn't make the Evis aoe

[maiden oar]

but u can get a socket for a really cool belt or wrist upgrade! the most exciting slots in the game!

im aching to get a better belt and a better bracer! i just cannot wait!

[limpid sage]

me when the function has a 0.05% upgrade

[sweet turret]

Couldn't they just make it work with BP

[limpid sage]

that's what I'm saying

[maiden oar]

im actually considering buying a boe belt

but i know its a waste

[limpid sage]

why

you want to lose dmg?

[maiden oar]

for next reset

[sweet turret]

Im opening my vault tomorrow evening 1 hour before raid 🥲

[maiden oar]

i know i can just get a plexus / king one eventually but we are starting sales soon and i dont want every belt to go to buyers forever

[raven sail]

Hello champs, what do you do when you got 2 stacks of SD but FLAGGELATION and SB have 30-40 sec cd remaining?

[maiden oar]

theyre nerfing disc belt next reset

and its like 550k for a bis belt

[sweet turret]

Go for it!

[limpid sage]

you send one

[sweet turret]

And spam coup in that time

[lucid jackal]

You stop using them at 30 seconds

[sweet turret]

It will be back by over 50% when flag is up

[lucid jackal]

But if Ur at 2 stacks, u didn't use one earlier

[ivory vigil]

I have the opposite problem, I like assa, but don't enjoy deathstalker 😄

[lucid jackal]

Sin without deathstalker is genuinely the most boring spec ever made lol

[maiden oar]

i hope they make sin st more fun in midnight

[lucid jackal]

Deathstalker is a lot of fun!

[maiden oar]

it is if theres more than 1 guy

[raven sail]

I do proper opening. After that, don't know when to stop using SOD and SD and sometimes I stand having rdy to use SOD AND SD but on SD FLAG and SB

[limpid sage]

[maiden oar]

but i dont like it that much if theres 1 guy

its better than fatebound for sure

tbh id like ds more if vv wasnt the correct talent

master assassin ds was more fun

[sweet turret]

Envenom with the purple Bar is giga Chad, even better with caustic spatter

I would like the poison build to be giga Chad, and supercharging that finisher even more

[limpid sage]

last time I played sin I felt like the whole spec was perma backstab soup

in terms of apm

it's a while ago though

[maiden oar]

fb is very slow

[hazy breach]

Thats just green sub

[lone halo]

whats rule on BP

4 targets?

[limpid sage]

yep

(if you don't need prio dmg)

[lone halo]

do you cast it once to buikd danse mac?

even if under 4?

[white siren]

Hello I did terrible damage on soul hunters, by analysis of logs from other plyers available, it seems i did more rupture. So what is the gameplay about this ? only rupture your target and playing with the jump from talent or use rupture so each boss have it all the time ?

[limpid sage]

sim doesn't do that

but I do sometimes

[white siren]

also, is the tank movement on bosses affecting damage highly or not ?

[glad raven]

you got a log?

[white siren]

I struggled to do 6,1 to 6,5M

[limpid sage]

if you lose gcds in crucial moments then yes

if you lose gcds outside of cds then it hardly matters

but you can position yourself better to account for this most of the time

[white siren]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yWmP46rv7jcKL8hQ?fight=29&type=damage-done&source=5

[limpid sage]

ah ye soul hunters mess up your uptime sometimes

[white siren]

the complete group did terrible damage, but i'm checking how to improve myslef and not hiding behind guild overall performance for next time

[queen plinth]

Its like flag cds 2 dances in between + 2 sd outside then your cds come back up then u got 2 sd inside 1 outside
Then 2 in 2 out again

Basically

[karmic harbor]

I think watching a video and seeing when a good player uses their cooldowns is helpful on fights like that

[queen plinth]

Sometimes u are sitting there spamming black powder outside cds and you sit on 2 dd stacks when u still have cd on everything then u just send a sd

[warm marlin]

We do a little bit of testing

[warm marlin]

Mb king

Used to doing it on prog

-1 stack on plat gg

[crystal bone]

if i have forge and prism, what is the strat for sending on nexus?
forge, send neither trinket, send 18 stack on platform, forge on amp?

[native zodiac]

Ima black powder this week

Hope my rl doesnt see it

[karmic harbor]

Are you progging or do you want to parse whore

[crystal bone]

we are progging it

[karmic harbor]

Cause if you're progging using prism on platforms is gkickable

[limpid sage]

same thing no?

[karmic harbor]

Imo

[karmic harbor]

TRUE

[limpid sage]

[crystal bone]

is it tho, if we hardly have the dps check for titans

and i evis over BP

[warm marlin]

I’d send prism on platform until your raid figures out how to kill the titan

Unless you have double on use

[crystal bone]

i have myth prism and forge

[limpid sage]

wait do you not have double on use

[warm marlin]

oh ye then it’s forge time

[crystal bone]

so its forge, prism, forge, prism?

[karmic harbor]

I used prism during some prog pulls when people died or something just so we saw p3

[crystal bone]

hmm

ill just look at lorrgs

can i see trinket usage there

[karmic harbor]

Lorrgs might be filled with parse whores

Its forge prism forge prism

[crystal bone]

probably lol

ok

[limpid sage]

is it just me or is lorrgs severely outdated

[crystal bone]

so literally a macro angle

[limpid sage]

like the data on it

[crystal bone]

and ill have 18 stack for dmg amp

[lucid jackal]

It's not this complicated

[karmic harbor]

Sure, but you get 1 more flag after amp so prolly want that to be a prism too

[lucid jackal]

Just do forge prism

Use 13 use 14

There is no thinking

[crystal bone]

ok ty lol

[long marlin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[long marlin]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hazy breach]

Imagine if you had a hpala and could use flag at 1:20 instead of holding it for 2:50 though

Silly that they decided to have the fight be timed this way

[native zodiac]

I guess antenna is prob the play aswell with those timings

Forge seems kinda pointless

I guess you could technically forge pull + amp and then send another 18 stack prism after

[hazy breach]

A 9 stack prism is better than forge for the amp anyway

[native zodiac]

Yup

[warm marlin]

Well it was testing for deep farm when the theoretical 4 seconds delay from autumn would cause the adds to turbo die before cb sectec

This week just sending like normal would have been completely fine the adds lived to like 3:25 I just didn’t think we would kill it so I wanted to see what the profile would look like or how much boss damage u would lose

[hazy breach]

We dont have a hpala anymore either

[native zodiac]

Im gonna try it with autumn this week

Drop the forge send prism on platform

[warm marlin]

you’ll gap me for sure

[quiet smelt]

is d slice our best sim otion ?

[native zodiac]

Depends on our killtimer tbh

[warm marlin]

and on the topic of autumn for damage amp I nearly beat my prog damage on amp with 8 stack prism no maghar no pot

turns out the extra time in amp is kinda op

[native zodiac]

It is

Allows a 3rd dance

[hazy breach]

You can 3 dance anyway

But you get the big prep for your flag+blade dances

Instead of for a pisser dance

[native zodiac]

Oh realy even without autumn?

[warm marlin]

It’s like 2.75 dances

If you do them all after flag

[hazy breach]

Well its dance > flag

[warm marlin]

You drop the last 2 seconds of dance if you wait but you still get the prep

[native zodiac]

Good thing i dont have to worry about that

[lone halo]

guys

we only use tea in 90 cd window right

how do you keep it from auto using it

[hazy breach]

Macro it to dance

And forget it exists

[lone halo]

dont go below 30 energy?

[crystal bone]

[lone halo]

well?

are you serios..

[crystal bone]

yes he is serious

[wraith sphinx]

Yes. Macro it and ignore it

[lone halo]

omg

[swift tinsel]

nope you don't play around it at all

rogue talents baby

[limpid sage]

I wonder why that is

Maybe because you overcap energy in cds anyway?

[native zodiac]

Bc you hit like a wet noodle outside of dance whats the point of having mastery then

[lone halo]

right

[limpid sage]

That argues for playing around the autouse though?

[lone halo]

but if you spam shit it will use all the charges

[limpid sage]

Or nvm you use all 3 teas in opener anyway

[swift tinsel]

yeah you burn through them fast on the opener

and I assume its like tfd where that's the big time to have them

[limpid sage]

Wouldn’t that make it better to bind it to sectec?

[lucid jackal]

Nope

If it was it would

[hazy breach]

You can bind it to sectech if you want, it doesnt matter

[swift tinsel]

realistically you're hitting sectech right after dance anyways

so its w/e

[limpid sage]

Not if you get it at the end of TFD

[limpid sage]

I mean the APL only does what we’ve instructed it to do through trial and error

[swift tinsel]

since that isn't guaranteed tho

it makes more sense to do dance

[ebon saddle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[limpid sage]

Imma experiment a lil when I get home

[crystal bone]

the only tea i play around is my iced tea irl

[vale widget]

So.... in all situations hero prism > myth antenna
Thats myth pacemaker btw

[hazy breach]

DId you put like 50% missrate or something on antenna

It should be roughly the same or slightly better than pacemaker

(paired with prism ofc)

[vale widget]

Gonna change it, but prism is so busted tbh

[upbeat garden]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[vale widget]

At 50% missrate prism is still ahead by far

[crystal bone]

nothing will replace prism

even a raid finder prism

[hazy breach]

I wasnt talking about replacing prism, i was talking about pacemaker vs antenna

[vale widget]

Ye, but on vault I have to choose between hero prism or myth antenna

[swift tinsel]

then you obv take prism

[vale widget]

Im sure the best is antenna + prism, but I have time

[swift tinsel]

if its that far ahead of antenna

there's a bit of flexibility on 2nd trinket

[hazy breach]

Prism + antenna/forge/pacemaker

[swift tinsel]

pacemaker, forge, antenna

[hazy breach]

all good

[lucid jackal]

Do reclear

Then take prism

[upbeat garden]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[upbeat garden]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

ye always take vault after reclear if you have the possibility to get it from raid

or if you're guy never take vault bc you're biblically cursed

[vale widget]

In my case, pray for prism because I only do first 2 on myth
No raiding

Well, lets clear hc until fract and pray

But ye, prism is a must

[crystal bone]

yup

even if u macro it to blades and forget u even have it

it still beats everything by miles

[vale widget]

Forge on hc is worse for my char, 2 weeks ago was on vault but in any situation pacemaker + lily was better

[upbeat garden]

I have forge on hc and antenna on mithic,all sims puts antenna as the winner by 0.6%

Wasnt forge better ?

[swift tinsel]

not necessarily

[crystal bone]

its better in certain situations

[quiet smelt]

is dslice our best sim for m+

[swift tinsel]

double on use is more situational

[upbeat garden]

For m+

[swift tinsel]

yea

[quiet smelt]

ty sir

ive been tying to use some routes but i get diff results for each sim so

[swift tinsel]

any time you're holding either trinket it makes double on-use worse

[upbeat garden]

I see ,in general I hold since I cant throw burst on fcking 3 mobs ,I mean holy molly these tanks

[crystal bone]

what i do is get 3.5k+ io asap, then only invite 3.4k+ tanks to 12s

[olive jacinth]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[olive jacinth]

Can i put both trinkets into blades macro? With araz first?

[crystal bone]

yes

[sly loom]

Should I be using rupture in aoe?

[frigid latch]

hell yea

you only finish with rupture

in aoe

[swift tinsel]

put it up as the tank gathers, then refresh after cds

any mobs that'll live >10sec should have one minus lil piss adds

[hazy breach]

Generally if the mobs are not gonna be dead halfway through your cds you should be sending if your cds are ready

[limpid sage]

wait is it renown 9 this week

[fathom adder]

yes, 9

[limpid sage]

big

[fathom adder]

dmg buff is at 10

[limpid sage]

no need to speedrun normal then

[fathom adder]

[frigid latch]

and if they are gonna be, then would you like send a dance generally?

if you have to delay cds anyway

[glossy turtle]

It’s double active the ideal trinket setup for m+. Thinking prism + forge

[weak mortar]

Hey, why ppl rates TheFirstDance if you can take weaponmaster instead that would work the whole fight?
Also, ppl take improved shuriken in st and never use

[swift tinsel]

weaponmaster is very weak

hilariously weak

same with the alternative to imp storm

and since we use storm between coups it's a bit of a nudge to imp storm value

[weak hamlet]

can someone help me out please? shoulder sims higher by 0.2% after catalyst and I currently have main dagger (myth) as well as crafted dagger with lens.

[weak mortar]

But tfd only gives 4 seconds improve. Checked a bunch of top logs with IS taken but not used, so then why while you can take any other talent even weak?

[weak hamlet]

might be a socket angle tbh

[swift tinsel]

tfd makes our opener very strong because you can fit 2x secret technique in that first dance

[karmic harbor]

weaponmaster does no damage

[swift tinsel]

and unless the fight is what, 7+ minutes tfd is just numerically better

[lone halo]

Do we save vanish for the 90s cds?

[swift tinsel]

nah you just kinda use it when you want/need

[lone halo]

k

[swift tinsel]

can use for vanish+premed between coups if you want

to throw in a storm or w/e

[weak hamlet]

Vanish between coups huge

[lone halo]

ok

[swift tinsel]

it's a comfort thing

idk if there's much you can cheese with vanish this raid that's worth holding it

[weak hamlet]

Also if pack is dying 2adds/etc u can pre vanish to get tfd faster

[swift tinsel]

ye

[weak hamlet]

Haptics help me out bro

[subtle palm]

Is there some interaction with escalating blades and unseen that makes it stack faster? Going through some logs and I have fewer coup de grace casts.

[weak hamlet]

Im forced to choose between a moveable object or a stoppable force

[weak hamlet]

.

[swift tinsel]

rng from the 2pc

[rancid spade]

for sub/sin can u use fist weapon off-hand?

[swift tinsel]

35% chance to strike/stack twice per hit

[swift tinsel]

no

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[weak hamlet]

Secret techinques give 2 guarenteed unseen blades maybe u wasting them

[viscid dagger]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[pure yacht]

Maybe this has already been discusses or there's some bug but how are these top parses on NK getting their shadow blades and flag up like 5 seconds earlier.

Everyone is popping SB at ~5 seconds

[clever cradle]

blessing of autumn

[pure yacht]

but then a ton of these use it again at ~1:25, how is that possible if its a 1m30s CD

fuck that's right

[subtle palm]

I am assuming the sectec unseen blades can benefit from 2pc?

[clever cradle]

yes

[weak hamlet]

Im saying, maybe ur proccing unseen blades while already having coup ready (4stacks) therefore getting less coup casts than normal

[subtle palm]

Yea that is some of the procs for sure. Just looking at other logs and I see stacks on another rogue jump from 0 to 3-4.

Thanks

[pure yacht]

When you have Coup de Grace up- you should be shuriken storming instead of backstabbing/shadowstriking to build CP so you don't accidentally proc unseen blade while CdG is up thus wasting a stack

[wintry holly]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

only in blades/aoe would you storm for cp

[glad raven]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[subtle palm]

Is the tooltip about unseen only being able to happen once every 20 seconds accurate?

[pure yacht]

That's its default CD but some things cause that to reset

[pure yacht]

Default is a 20s cooldown, auto attacks have a change to reset that, tier 2pc allows the proc to potentially happen twice, and sectec always gives you 2 back to back ones.

[hollow spear]

Subjective question: would you guys take a juicy chest with leech or a socket?

[limpid sage]

leech

[slate marlin]

Depends what your current chest ilvl is

[jade urchin]

sockets come and go but leech stays

[hazy breach]

You can always take socket next week, cant take leech next week

[lucid jackal]

How many sockets on non jewelry do u have? How close are u to not taking anything from vault

[hazy breach]

Not to mention to dps increase from sockets are miniscule anyway

[limpid sage]

also think about the healing logs

[hollow spear]

got 0/3 sockets yet

but the socket value is kinda lamé

[hazy breach]

Exception being if you are like currently progressing p3 dimensius and need more damage right now

[hollow spear]

We are currently progressing Saladbar

So no, damage is not the problem

Holy, chest with leech and helmet with avoidance

Why does that stuff always show up in the same vault

[crystal bone]

becuz john blizzard coded the vault to never be reasonable

[bleak night]

[sullen hare]

[keen dome]

We should pickpocket the vault

[swift tinsel]

get an extra item

rogue numbers skyrocket

[keen dome]

lmao could you imagine

[bleak night]

rogues can pick the vaults lock to get next weeks item early

[swift tinsel]

one hour til deep dive, forgot that was today

[orchid rampart]

!log

[signal moth]

are you lot crafting the binding of binding if in a group with 3 others that have it?

also do i have too much haste? 😛

[vale pine]

haha ^^ nice

[karmic harbor]

is there an addon/weakuara that'll auto apply to specific keys for me

[signal moth]

@vale pine how do i sim the binding of binding ring in raidbots?

[karmic harbor]

or do i have to do 1h queue simulator manually

[signal moth]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-what-are-you-waiting-for-determined-angry-gif-5247874

[charred kestrel]

There’s addons that let you select which dungeons, and you can specify key level with x-y

[karmic harbor]

ye, i want them to scan through group finder with those args and apply for me too

[graceful osprey]

Is there a soft cap or a diminishing return cap for vers and mastery?

[vale pine]

every stat has less benefits once you hit a certain value

if you mean "should i not use the stat"

[warm marlin]

They specifically broke the functionality for this

Pretty sure it used to exist

[vale pine]

well just sim it, the simulations considers those

[warm marlin]

But bots and stuff abused it

[karmic harbor]

oh ok

right it was the world quest group finder thing

[vale pine]

does it not work if you just put it in?

[karmic harbor]

i remember

[warm marlin]

Ye

So u gotta do it yourself

[graceful osprey]

Ahh okay, just checking, so that’s why a higher vers/ lower mastery ring sims higher for me right now

[signal moth]

well nope, and also you cant seem to select how many people have it etc

[vale widget]

With a 34 I will get prism, sure

Better take from vault and done

[warm marlin]

When I was pugging I set very specific filters and put an autoclicker on to refresh every so often while watching stuff on other monitor

[signal moth]

this is bannable lol

[warm marlin]

mildly

[chrome palm]

Reporting you so I can parse

[warm marlin]

[signal moth]

pugging = 4 huors of clicking sing up

friends = 4 hours of waiting for 1 guy to make a drink

[vale pine]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ExpansionOptions

[warm marlin]

In df3 I applied for about 4 hours while doing work on the side a day and it took a week to get into an io key

if they banned me for auto clicking so be it (don’t pug high keys it sucks especially when you’re not hard meta)

[chrome palm]

I’m 1 guy

[vale widget]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[graceful osprey]

In M+ outside of CDs, how much should you rupture spread and I should be shurikening instead of BS correct?

[bleak night]

in m+ outside of cds you might as well go refill your drink

[glad raven]

Depends on the target count and how much HP stuff has

[pastel raptor]

hey is this accurate i didnt expect to get medaillon so i crafted neck 2 days ago 😅 i did 0% miss on antenna which might have been dumb can anyone please tell me what an accurate % is? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1amhBcT1BFQsf2ZRGos2Lp

[signal moth]

how do you do this lol?

[vale pine]

you can put it under custom apl

just <nameofthing>=value

[graceful osprey]

Hmm, is there a general rule?
Like if I’m caught without flag/SB I’ll shuriken and spread ruptures a few times and then shuriken BP. Of course keeping in mind CD timing and not sending too many dances

[warm marlin]

Look at one of your logs and check yourself to give you a more accurate number

[vale pine]

so for example
thewarwithin.binding_of_binding_on_you=1

[pastel raptor]

i dont have antenna yet its my vault 😅

or did i misundderstand

[warm marlin]

Oh yea hmm

[signal moth]

is that just in the custom bit in top gear or do i need to run an advanced?

[warm marlin]

Idk like 10-20%

Depends a bit on how much movement there is

[vale pine]

can put it in custom apl in top gear

[pastel raptor]

okayy ty

[warm marlin]

In keys 10% is probably safe

[vale pine]

yes

[pastel raptor]

🙏 ty

[opal basalt]

!log

[vale pine]

ofc you can set it to the number you want

to specify whatever you want to test

the table shows the range you can use

[signal moth]

ok i am crafting a ring but i want to see as 3 people in our stack already have it

we cant figure out if its worth lol

to craft for me or all 5

[flint ravine]

ive got 16k vers and 24k mastery them stats look good?

[vale pine]

if you have low amounts of haste

you are good to go

[flint ravine]

sweet. was gonna buy creephide cord

dunno whether or not to get more mastery or vers

101% mastery unsure of the diminishing returns

pretty much 19k vers with flask

[flint ravine]

is that with flask?

[opal basalt]

nope

not even food actually

[flint ravine]

should i look for a more vers heavy belt then?

since im 101 mastery

[hot creek]

are you chad used to be top dps on keys ? i feel like im always 0.5M behind, playing 16/17 keys

[warm marlin]

13k/20k/20k is certainly where raidbots likes me to be

[opal basalt]

idk too well about the stats

but yeah raidbots gravitates me towards that too

[warm marlin]

You should sim it

[flint ravine]

yeh i got 11k crit

[warm marlin]

Can look at some different belt types

[flint ravine]

11k crit 23.9k mastery and prety much 19k vers with flask

[opal basalt]

vers flask?

[flint ravine]

ye

[opal basalt]

oh lol didnt even see wowhead suggests that, i just looked at what raidbot sims with and that was chaos flask

[warm marlin]

They’re almost identical and if you aren’t potting then a single stat flask is better

[graceful osprey]

Should we be aiming for 20k vers with flask or without?

[warm marlin]

Chaos only gains from the pot thing

[opal basalt]

yeah i do always use pot

[lucid jackal]

Not something u should pay attention to

Just Sim don't think or look at stats ever

[warm goblet]

is it sketchy to macro araz to blades while running araz + prism?

[swift tinsel]

nah that's what you do

[warm goblet]

obviously not the most optimal thing to do, but am i really screwing it by doing that?

[swift tinsel]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[warm goblet]

aight cool, thanks!

[wild spindle]

Anyone here willing to look at some logs to give me some insight on NK platform damage?

[swift tinsel]

rogue shown adventuring with Arator, we're so back

lol showing a clone attack spree for valeera but not outlaw

[long matrix]

Hey guyz, i'm switching sub for araz MM and i need a good POV with a historic of skills used, any suggestions ?

[charred kestrel]

YouTube search “mythic araz rogue pov” and take your pic.

[long matrix]

i did and they're not that good

[charred kestrel]

Show them how it’s done then

Dam pos iPhone

[swift tinsel]

the top 3 results all show ability use

idk what more you want

go to lorrgs.io to check cd use that's all you really need to know idk

[charred kestrel]

Could look at lorggs to for what others used CDs

[swift tinsel]

was hoping to see something about apex talents in the deep dive but we'll see what comes up in the QA

[long matrix]

Thanks for your absolute useless answers, i already know these tools, dunno why i'm losing time post a question on a discord with people that just answer useless things that i didnt ask

[swift tinsel]

I asked what more you want besides kill vids with ability use

you said nothing

because the top results all had that

so that's on you

[signal moth]

this makes me want to help you so much

[long matrix]

dw i'll never ask smtgh here

again

[signal moth]

https://tenor.com/view/bye-okay-slide-gif-15172486

[tepid trellis]

[hollow spear]

What did I just read?

[swift tinsel]

idk some cringe shit

[crystal bone]

[tender frost]

this is the funniest thing

[ripe flame]

good thing he knows those tools

[swift tinsel]

defensive pruning, very nice

new talent trees up

[keen dome]

Oh, they're up? I gotta see the sub apex

[crystal bone]

[swift tinsel]

rogues not tho lmao

[fiery crater]

any way to sim all different soleah stats at once?

[keen dome]

THEY KNOW

[swift tinsel]

must be populating still

[crystal bone]

its stealthed

[swift tinsel]

so our hero talents are off to the right of the regular hero tree

[mental kettle]

wow useful vault

[long matrix]

what a shame i pref watch a video and analyze logs than just analyzing logs. I asked a POV, there isn't that much on YT and i don't know good raid streamers on Twitch. If you can't answer to my question don't say "go on lorrgs "

[charred kestrel]

What other answers do you want? Go to Warcraft logs and watch replay?

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel

[hollow spear]

Go on lorrgs mate

[vale pine]

alpha Midnight Collection post.

Alpha comes with a bunch of talent changes and the new apex talents.
This post collects information pieces released, i will update it as more information comes out.

Articles:

• Updated Talent Trees
• Patch Notes

TL;DR:

• Shadowstrike is our main damage source.
• We most likely send our cooldowns once every 90 sec and have 74 sec downtime between.

For discussions and Information around Midnight, we created a seperate channel: #midnight-subtlety

[swift tinsel]

holy shit outlaw lost crackshot

and UHUH

[hollow spear]

Spec "rogue-subtlety" not found

[lilac stag]

Told ya fuckers they’re deleting it

Bring on gunslinger

[swift tinsel]

biggest W

[strange chasm]

Cold blood changed

[swift tinsel]

where those trees?

they don't load for me

[dreamy badger]

f5

f5

[swift tinsel]

FUCK

[lilac stag]

Sorry, like Lashga, Wowhead has banned you

[swift tinsel]

WHY

GO AWAY

[vale pine]

talent trees

[swift tinsel]

interesting PV change

ig

[lilac stag]

Tone deaf dev

[crystal bone]

i see the icon for weaponmaster

[tepid trellis]

NONONONONO

[swift tinsel]

rotten crit gone

[vale pine]

cold blood rework

F

[crystal bone]

weaponmaster changed?

[dreamy badger]

wait where is flag

[vale pine]

a lot of talents did

[vale pine]

purged

[swift tinsel]

flag gone yessssssssssssssss

[dreamy badger]

lole

[maiden oar]

wtf

i liked flag

[dreamy badger]

we haste stacking now xdd

[keen dome]

Wow

[dreamy badger]

no you didnt

[maiden oar]

yes i did!

[swift tinsel]

whoa

Danse stacks just do damage instead of increasing damage

ncie

[dreamy badger]

well ok then

[vale pine]

-.-

pv at least not terrible anymore

[tepid trellis]

no more split dmg on evis tho

[left ledge]

TELL ME

THAT DANCE CD THING

[autumn condor]

#midnight-subtlety

[left ledge]

IS FAKE

ITS FAKE

RIGHT

[keen dome]

no

we haste

[dreamy badger]

we are hasting

[left ledge]

WHAT A SHIT WAY

TO INTRODUCE HASTE

HOLY SHIT

THATS SO GARBAGE

[dreamy badger]

the law treatment

[keen dome]

nooo they made FW more important

[icy mulch]

It literally is law treatment

[keen dome]

why would you do this

[maiden oar]

hmm

[keen dome]

yeah it's a passive now

[lilac stag]

I love friction with my 1 second gcd

[keen dome]

Which is interesting

[dreamy badger]

you love waiting for coup? wait for storm as well now

i love waiting

in dance

[lilac stag]

fucking dumbasses designing

[swift tinsel]

yeah some of these changes are realllllllll weird

[keen dome]

Really not a fan of that change to Shadowed Finishers

'cos it makes FW even more impactful and FW fucking sucks.

[tepid trellis]

its the same

[swift tinsel]

really not a fan FW is still there and also the first node

[tepid trellis]

just no longer split

[swift tinsel]

ye the non-split part is nice

since for SOME reason

they won't get rid of FW

[keen dome]

Danse change is cool

[warm marlin]

A lot of crit synergy

[patent lichen]

https://tenor.com/view/darth-vader-no-noooo-gif-7347380959994097336

[lucid jackal]

LMFAOOO

[steel zinc]

also sectech

[warm marlin]

RIP vers stacking

[lucid jackal]

Holy

[swift tinsel]

yeah that part was neat

[alpine wraith]

wait i just got home

[steel zinc]

also coldblood is now a chance

[alpine wraith]

oh boi

[steel zinc]

you want to stack haste/crit

[swift tinsel]

crit synergy

[left ledge]

what about mastery

we have mastery interactions too

esp in aoe

HAHAHAHA

[quartz prism]

Does ilvl on MH still matter? I just got a 723 dagger, do i put it MH and my crafted 720 in OH?

[icy mulch]

Just equip highest ilvl

[tepid trellis]

i dont see that

[swift tinsel]

flag being gone is huge

love it

[steel zinc]

thats bad no more burst

[left ledge]

????

[icy mulch]

Highest in mh

[left ledge]

wait

[swift tinsel]

unironically goated