subtlety

[short radish]

in keys you don't have 99% uptime

on every single mob that does damage

in raid sure though

[tepid trellis]

make nimble spread poisons

ong

[limpid sage]

spam shuriken storm in dance

[keen dome]

hell yeah, nimble poisons

Maybe that'll be one of our new hero talents. Just one node: "Nimble can now spread poisons"

[limpid sage]

just all our abilities really

[haughty mural]

[limpid sage]

the non-lethal part anyway

[haughty mural]

Nimble will get removed

[keen dome]

Nimble removed, replaced with..

[limpid sage]

rogue hardcapped on 1 target pog

[tepid trellis]

bring back funnel sub ong

[keen dome]

Cau... Shadowy Sp.. uh... Shadowy Strikes

[tepid trellis]

fuck doing AoE

let me nuke the prio targets or bosses with adds

[limpid sage]

50 mil dps to 1 mob

[keen dome]

Yeeeeeees

Do it

I want to point at a mob and go "See that guy? He's already dead."

[haughty mural]

Nimble gets replaced by a 80% BP dmg node

[keen dome]

5 gold says that during the alpha / beta cycle, they buff BP.

[haughty mural]

Bet brotherman

we are going back to this

https://tenor.com/view/world-of-warcraft-gif-27554945

[short radish]

honestly

i miss shuriken storm black powder spam

not having to be in melee range

and still doing rotation

is comfy

[keen dome]

Acro....

[short radish]

good times

i cant wait for shadowlands classic to play with acro again

[tepid trellis]

sub did not have acro in SL

so

[short radish]

oh didnt it?

was it a DF thing

okay

[tepid trellis]

that was DF

[short radish]

i cant wait for dragonflight classic to play with acro again

and also have the flattest damage profile known to man

[upper narwhal]

DF Classic 2032

[tepid trellis]

and you had to pick between acro and Cheat in the .0 patch

very noice

[short radish]

i pick acro

[keen dome]

Same

Just don't die

[haughty mural]

[short radish]

gloomblade my beloved

[wheat elk]

XD

[keen dome]

Make sure to include the joke method

[wispy crystal]

Feeling so good doing M+. Pushing 15s.

Top DPS, no deaths (cheat death saved me once).

Life is good with nimble flurry

So much better than doing ST raids ☺️

I don't understand how DKs can die so much in M+

Shoulders hurt from carrying

[vagrant fulcrum]

frost in m+ is probably the slowest spec ingame

but its still not really an excus

e

that entire class feels like playing with cheats

[limpid sage]

ye not when you can live most instakill mechanics xd

[vagrant fulcrum]

the amount of shit

you can just press ams and stand in

[limpid sage]

it's crazy

[vagrant fulcrum]

or da and the mechanic doesn't exist

[limpid sage]

imagine if we had cloak on 45 sec cd

[vagrant fulcrum]

makes cloak look balanced

our class litterally lives and dies by cloak and they have it on 45s

[limpid sage]

not to mention being platewearer + having some of the most broken selfhealing

[vagrant fulcrum]

ye the ds reset in keys is so omega broken

[scenic plover]

Find me a dps dk actually pressing death strike

[vagrant fulcrum]

and just generally trading some dps for a healthstone at minimum

if rogue ain't it dk is deffo in the running

[scenic plover]

Most of those meta rerolling dks barely know they can grip adds

[limpid sage]

they have to actually drop for them to press it, so you won't find anyone below 18s pressing it

[lucid jackal]

Outlaw rework. Hero talents looked at and given a 2nd pass, mainly deathstalker sub, trickster outlaw, and fatebound on the whole.
Sub talent tree 2nd pass. Too many good talents exist behind other talents, which was the entire point of the initial changes set in s3 dragonflight.

I think rogue is a lot more fun than a lot of ppl in here act sometimes but there's still some rough edges as there always is

[vagrant fulcrum]

any kinda rot if for w/e reason ams, icebound and lichborne can't cover it 1-3 ds will make you survive anything

[silk isle]

dAnyone got a details breakdown of a standard M+ run?

[vagrant fulcrum]

its so op

[wispy crystal]

It does so much damage both ST and AOE. But the gap between good frost DKs and those FOTM rerollers is really big

[vagrant fulcrum]

I like frost rn, super simple to pick up but there is room for mastery

[limpid sage]

I wish vial was actually a decent selfheal cd

[vagrant fulcrum]

the length of my breaths now compared to right at the start of the patch is noticable

both gear and skill went up

[vagrant fulcrum]

im still waiting for those upgrades to it they promised in sl kekw

[lucid jackal]

I think what happened in sl was they tried it and realized it was a shit play pattern

Ppl complain about wax xd

I think it'd be cool to add after the wax experiment though

I love bubbling wax

[vagrant fulcrum]

I think a questline to upgrade it with mutually exclusive options would be cool

[limpid sage]

me too esp in open world

[vagrant fulcrum]

maybe one would give it a small 10% dr or something, another could up the potency of the heal while a third could make it passive for the casuals

[limpid sage]

and our proc effects makes it somewhat bearable xd

[vagrant fulcrum]

heck, just giving it a free reset on killing blow

would go a long way

[velvet nova]

Guys do you reckon I should use Mythic antenna or heroic forge for dimensius mythic?

[scenic plover]

Idk sub is great. I started the season first time trying outlaw and now i am happy first time playing sub.

Not to take away from the changes you mention but regarding the comment of people hating on rogue

[lucid jackal]

I mean I've read the reddit threads about people talking about how bad rogue is and they are clueless

[tepid trellis]

my top 4 things i want changed for sub in midnight
Coup refund delay fixed
FW removed/shadowed finishers
Backstab not useable in dance/stealth
Bring back funnel mechanics for trickster so you are incentivized to never press BP as trickster

[limpid sage]

shhh let them sandbag

[lucid jackal]

I agree with 1 2 and 4 but disagree but 3 but I get why u don't like it

[slate marlin]

ye got to agree on all of it

[tepid trellis]

fwiw point 3 isnt really for myself, people complain about the piano like rotation so its just me projecting their complaints if anything

[keen dome]

Baseline purple backstab or bust

[leaden prairie]

put dance sod blades on gcd

[slate marlin]

Ye, sub is good, assa is bugged, and outlaw has killing spree

[leaden prairie]

!

[slate marlin]

But its fun overall

[keen dome]

They should rename killing spree to "Power Word: Guns"

[slate marlin]

no

[leaden prairie]

too late

[limpid sage]

personally, I would like BP to only be used above 8 targets, but not entirely useless

[hazy breach]

Bro is a BFA developer

[slate marlin]

Alright

Then reduce ks cd by half, double its channel and make it no longer cancelable

deal zac?

[leaden prairie]

[tepid trellis]

and make it only target your non target

[limpid sage]

OR make them increase nimble flurry dmg but hardcap it to 5 targets

[silk isle]

Does this breakdown look good over a M+

[slate marlin]

Prioritices adds with the lowest hp

[silk isle]

Or am I spreading ruptures too much

[leaden prairie]

bp pressers

[keen dome]

make it so that after you use KS, it spawns 12 flintlocks you have to go and pick back up

[leaden prairie]

I see you all

[queen plinth]

@short radish 17 eco btw

[leaden prairie]

pressnig bp in arakara

[slate marlin]

Typical outlaw player mad about softcapped abilities

[tepid trellis]

i did catch myself do that on the AoE dr mobs and was like "what in the fuck am i actually doing right now"

[leaden prairie]

i know

sub players

[slate marlin]

Ye i only press evis on araka

[leaden prairie]

bet you all press bp on the minibosses aswell

[tepid trellis]

i just defaulted to my bp mode, and caught myself 4 globals later

[keen dome]

I forget to BP and just evis. Ara is the only dungeon this works in my favour

[slate marlin]

Btw is nimble unable to cleave on 1st mini in arakara?

[silk isle]

Wait, what dungeons do you not BP in and only funnel Evis?

Just Ara?

[leaden prairie]

prolly wokrs in yuor favor in every dungeon im ngl

[slate marlin]

my dmg on that pull is lower compared to other similar pulls

[limpid sage]

excuse me what dr

[keen dome]

Maybe!

[leaden prairie]

once you get to a certain level of key you just need more prio

[tepid trellis]

[keen dome]

Yeah but I'm baby who only does up to 13's

[slate marlin]

Big scarabs make near mobs take 50% less dmg

[limpid sage]

EXCUSE ME WHAT

[keen dome]

Although I've done multiple Ara's where people just brainless AoE on the big DR packs

[slate marlin]

Ye, its why u only cleave not pad

[tepid trellis]

you never wondered what the grey floating aura was?

[slate marlin]

In arakara

[tepid trellis]

lmfao

[slate marlin]

Minibosses need to die, big scarabs need to die

[limpid sage]

[slate marlin]

Although on some pulls u bp

[leaden prairie]

[keen dome]

Big scarab DR auras are cool

[leaden prairie]

which pulls

[short radish]

woooooo arcane mage

[keen dome]

pull before the second miniboss if the tank is scared

[tepid trellis]

the ones where i wanna top dmg ofc!

[slate marlin]

The ones at the end, where u got drones+the 2 guys

[leaden prairie]

no but i see you guys

[queen plinth]

cause u said u havent seen a good arcane mage and they be 3 mil behind everytime 😄

[leaden prairie]

bping the whole pack to then finiish the miniboss sting

I see all of you sub players

[remote shuttle]

BP Is nice dmg... Still, i'm happier anytime i send and Evi and i'm sadly sad whenever i touch bp button

[slate marlin]

Mainly bc with coup the prio on those mobs is enough

[queen plinth]

but thats my first 17 timed of the season btw, got instantly invited as arcane into a 17 wwith like 3.2k io

[hazy breach]

I mean it is obviously better to evis on the minibosses, but its not ultra griefing to BP as its like 5% less prio

[limpid sage]

I only recently found out that scaffolding reduced architect dmg taken as well

I just thought it was to annoy melee dps

[tepid trellis]

ill stop bp'ing when your killing spree stops padding on off targets yeah?

[keen dome]

Haha

[short radish]

that wasnt me

[tepid trellis]

imagine being THE prio dmg class since like introduction

[queen plinth]

oh my bad then

[tepid trellis]

to just be nothing

[keen dome]

I wish I was the prio king..

[leaden prairie]

i wish

[keen dome]

I wish this Mythic pug would fill up already, too

[limpid sage]

that was me

[queen plinth]

oh yea u saw the screen?

[leaden prairie]

dont even know if you are talking about outlaw or sub

[limpid sage]

ye

first time seeing that

[tepid trellis]

should be renamed to collateral damage or random spree

[leaden prairie]

dogshit spree ye

[tepid trellis]

outlaw sub wasent a prio spec

[keen dome]

Power Word: Gun, imo

[queen plinth]

its so sad man, i instantly got invited into a 17 with half the dungeons on 14 still. and as rogue i struggle to get into 16s when i have 3 16s elft to do

[leaden prairie]

it is what it is

[tepid trellis]

i cast gun prepare to meet god

[leaden prairie]

at least we have a st focused hero talent so we can get more prio

(no)

[tepid trellis]

[limpid sage]

lol what

[queen plinth]

yea

thats out community in a nutshell

[hazy breach]

If i was pugging 17s i would absolutely not invite an arcane mage to my group

Because theres a 99% chance theyre some fotm reroller that have no idea how to play and think them doing terrible overall is fine because they "funnel"

[slate marlin]

Mages in general are a gamble, either they blast or u wonder why u didnt invite a 2nd tank, same dmg, less deaths

[sick jackal]

i depleted a 15 flood with a mage if he did tank damage it would have been a time

[tepid trellis]

should only ever invite actual mage players

[sick jackal]

15-16s atm are hell

[tepid trellis]

its similar to rogues in that regard

[leaden prairie]

I never invite sub rogues to my keys

im still convinced sub rogue m+ players dont exist

and i dont want no raid one trick in my keys

[tepid trellis]

tbf you playing outlaw means you arent allowed to invite other sub-optimal classes you already bring the chance of timing it low

[leaden prairie]

ayo

[tepid trellis]

(i have no idea how outlaw is in keys)

[sick jackal]

ayo me and the 5 other subrogue m+ players are sad now

[tepid trellis]

im mentally checked out of wow

[swift tinsel]

I'm at raid-logging level atm

[tepid trellis]

i barely do that

i showed up on 2 hours of sleep

[swift tinsel]

I did one whole key this past week and felt nothing

[tepid trellis]

and a coffee

this reset

[leaden prairie]

i bottom dps while having 5 more ilvl than the other 2 guys, while not bringing raid buff, while in a comp specifically made for me, pulling around me, while having the lowest st, lowest prio damage, lowest aoe, hardcapped, no cds

other thn that its great

cool vibes

[tepid trellis]

sounds pretty decent

[leaden prairie]

yuh

[swift tinsel]

we're in mythic finally and re-progging plexus and soulbinder each night is meh

I cba

[tepid trellis]

we are just doing 6/8 mythic runs while we wait for new recruits to be done with the tier in their current guilds

[swift tinsel]

weekly rotating bench is not in our favor

esp when it includes healers

ah yeah that sounds like a Not Engaging Times angle

[slate marlin]

sounds like you need to play the rotation a bit better you know? Like, have zeross log review you or smth

[swift tinsel]

RL is also doing a thing now where people are benched for every fight for both nights in a week

now that we're starting mythic 2 nights a week instead of 1 hc reclear 1 myth prog night

which translates to "I'm not logging in that week" for me lol

[leaden prairie]

yuh

[weak hamlet]

I feel like a wow dev was planning on buffing outlaw then opened up your stream and said “naaah, seems like they’re doing fine”

[swift tinsel]

you lost me at "wow dev was planning"

[weak hamlet]

💀💀💀

[swift tinsel]

they're more checked out of the season/xpac than I am lmao

[slate marlin]

Dev was watching a rogue

[weak hamlet]

Might have been fantasizing too hard my fault

[swift tinsel]

I bet you see legit no notes or anything beyond 11.2.5 for the rest of the expansion

or anything between now and then

[leaden prairie]

idk even I am not doing fine

and usually I am

[buoyant wadi]

just play with hunter lol, almost every prio mob dies before small ones

such a dumb spec its crazy

[leaden prairie]

am not used to that

with outlaw in grp

your prio mob

[buoyant wadi]

[leaden prairie]

is 20% hp at the end of the pack

[weak hamlet]

Wait hunter has prio dmg?

[buoyant wadi]

just aim ur killing spree better wtf...

[leaden prairie]

ye about 4 times outalw prio damage

[leaden prairie]

my bad cuh

[weak hamlet]

I mean like compared to a real spec

[buoyant wadi]

yes

[leaden prairie]

2x then

[weak hamlet]

They really gave them everything lmao 💀

[leaden prairie]

bro any

i tuned up in wox stream yesterday

[weak hamlet]

And outlaw still paying for BFA’s sins

[leaden prairie]

they were in priory 19

they do 2nd boss

[buoyant wadi]

lmao

[leaden prairie]

[limpid sage]

How do you pull around outlaw, don’t you have cds perma? (I have 0 clue how you work)

[hazy breach]

Passanger princess

[leaden prairie]

you pull perma

[limpid sage]

Ah

[leaden prairie]

you dont do big pulls

you pull on bosses

you pulll

then you pull again

[hazy breach]

Fury likes that too dont they

[leaden prairie]

yu

[limpid sage]

Isn’t outlaw just fury but significantly harder and significantly worse

[tepid trellis]

raging blow goes brrrt

@viral patrol thoughts on raging blow?

[leaden prairie]

rn ye sure

[weak hamlet]

Significantly harder, worse, more punishing, worse ST worse AOE, undesirable, not raid buff, less utility

[lilac stag]

you’re forgetting fury is actually fun

[leaden prairie]

outlaw is fun

[lucid jackal]

The entire expansion has been hunter is average/above average but somehow look underpowered on wcl

• They get an undeserved 5-10% buff
• becomes the strongest st, and also aoe spec in the entire game

[tepid trellis]

stil not the dumbest thing we have seen this expansion

nothing beats the dev buffs last tier

[lilac stag]

Hunters, warlocks & mages have it figured out

[tepid trellis]

third best class already

lets give 6%

cuz why not

[short radish]

don't forget hunters have had a defensive powercreep from being rather fragile to tanky as fuck

because i swear 2 expacs ago hunters were fragile

they had one turtle and exhil on a 2min cd

[tepid raven]

Love raging blow would hate to press anything else

[limpid sage]

Doesn’t help when 95% of the playerbase are unknowingly sandbagging the spec(s)

[tepid raven]

Glad it went from the best button to press last tier to even better this tier

[short radish]

and when the TCers are sandbagging the sims

[lucid jackal]

That doesn't happen

[limpid sage]

[tepid trellis]

was with tmy about it not long ago and he might have had a lil crashout (rightfully so)

[autumn condor]

Fotm rerollers don't have the right to opinions 🙂

[tepid trellis]

dont you have 3x symbols of deaths to press in a row?

[tepid raven]

[autumn condor]

YOU'RE TAKING HIS SIDE?

[lilac stag]

Ronkley loves 🏈 in 🇮🇪 and Raging Blows

[tepid trellis]

he is my boss i have to

[steady sphinx]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[tepid raven]

He’s getting a raise for this

[tepid trellis]

@autumn condor get this

bozo

[autumn condor]

You already gave it to me after the incident

[lucid jackal]

Fury is fun

[limpid sage]

Was even more fun before they killed my boy Reckless Abandon

[tepid raven]

This is true

[keen dome]

Fury is fun

[tepid raven]

RA>AM

[slate marlin]

Fury is giga fun

But cant play anything other than rogue, nothing is as fun for me

Except aff when they remove mr

[limpid sage]

Unbridled not proccing when playing AM

[swift tinsel]

aff Agony refresh then Vile Taint coming off cd 3 sec later is my 13th reason

[tepid raven]

I mean they essentially removed UF from the game but it’s better I did not like how it played when you were just trying to maintain 90% uptime of reck

[slate marlin]

Designing a talent that makes agony deal aoe dmg whe refreshed below 5 seconds as a solution only to give sp 2 charges of crash is diabolical

[swift tinsel]

most unnecessarily tilting experience

[swift tinsel]

yeah whoever is hard-locking the spec out of 2x Taint is a literal menace

[astral axle]

fury manages to be both simple and fun

and a damage profile as flat as the earth

[swift tinsel]

"ye lemme mouseover refresh these 8 agony dots and now I can just do that with one button press a few seconds later with an ability I need to use on cooldown to line up with soul rot"

[hazy breach]

Just let them drop

Lose all the stacks

[swift tinsel]

ggez

[hazy breach]

Brilliant design truly

[swift tinsel]

devs playing 5D chess

[limpid sage]

Trying to parse on ST bosses in Aberrus was one of the worst experiences just because of that talent

[vale pine]

meanwhile you did only hear "best balance has ever been" everywhere ^^

[slate marlin]

i would love for aff to be truly dots, maybe make it so the st strengh comes from drain soul proccing ticks on your main target so aoe isnt op

[swift tinsel]

like old Malefic

[slate marlin]

What was old malefic?

[swift tinsel]

did DoT damage while you channel

[slate marlin]

I only now currwnt rapture, i was too young to remember specific talents

ah so im a design genius then

[swift tinsel]

sec

[slate marlin]

Why the fuck did they remove that

[swift tinsel]

so basically your idea but 12 years ago lol

[slate marlin]

kekw

and they removed that

But insist on currwnt nr

mr

ok blizz

[tropic parrot]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[slate marlin]

Just make it so its only on your main target, and a talent that cleaves ds to 3 target idk

[swift tinsel]

yeah idk if that was in mop and wod but def mop

[slate marlin]

But PLEASE remove mr

[swift tinsel]

UA spender was nice

[slate marlin]

Well im sure a lot of aff players like it

but i completely hate it

Aff should not be a hard cast spec imo

Dots+drains

[hazy breach]

Idk ive never seen somebody say something not negative about it

But im sure those people exist

[slate marlin]

Ye

But i wont care about them

their opinions are wrong

Burn mr

[lime edge]

so erh i got a myth track prio trinket that sims well with the fracc trinket, but i also got the eco trinket. should i follow the sim or go with fracc/eco trink?

[sterile quarry]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[sterile quarry]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tepid trellis]

[plush jackal]

is it worth playing thistle tea?

[vale pine]

in m+, yes

in raid, nah

[plush jackal]

even for saladhar for that small burts phase?

[silk isle]

[short radish]

no

[plush jackal]

also, is there universal enchant i gotta have on weapons or i gotta sim it?

[placid crown]

still hesitating between bis shoulders in mythic or good trinket in heroic. Knowing that with my guild we are close to kill araz in mythic, we easily kill the boss that drop these shoulders, and atm i have prism and ovo passiv trinkets in heroic.

[zinc river]

when is bliz gonna ban ppl who make keys and set note tip ?

[hollow creek]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hollow creek]

Guys sorry to bother, just to be sure i'm doing things correctly, to sim myself in dg runs which fighting style should i choose?

[tepid trellis]

dslice

[hollow creek]

ty ❤️

[hollow creek]

weekly nightly or latest? i always used weekly

[tepid trellis]

latest

[plush jackal]

which settings do yall use for simming? dungeon slice?

[tepid trellis]

depends on the content

you are doing

m+ = dslice
raid = a form of patchwerk usually

[hybrid compass]

anyone knows how to stack netherprism before dung start? I heard its possible somehow

[plush jackal]

dummy ig

portable one

[tepid trellis]

they fixed it

it gets reset when entering an instance

[plush jackal]

also a question, ive seen people run araz+prism, but when i sim myslef with lily and with araz i have same dmg output +-

[lucid jackal]

What

[plush jackal]

ive seen some guy araz+prism, so i simed myself with those trinkets cause i have araz in my bag, i had same dmg output with prism+araz as with lily+prism, why did the guy went araz then

[lucid jackal]

Link this sim

[plush jackal]

and guy had like #1 dmg in leaderboard on that boss

second

gotta find it

[tepid trellis]

his araz is probably higher ilvl than his lily where as for some its the reverse

[plush jackal]

aaaaaaaaaa ye that would make sense as my araz is only champ and lily hero

but i thought main stat is more important than sub stat so that why i got confused

[tepid trellis]

champ/hero if crest saving is the same ilvl

704

[sharp hatch]

I'm so confused on quick sim it says black powder is my second most damage ability beside nimble but do you actually use it/spam it in packs or spam evis on main target

[tepid trellis]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[rough olive]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[plush jackal]

are these talents good?

for m+

ive seen a lot of diff builds so im not sure which one is the right one

[vale pine]

they are fine, most players go with inev for a bit more single target damage

[surreal epoch]

Is there ever a world were you use cold blood on your first secret technique in shadow blades if you are using ritual forge because the trinket is giving more agi at the beginning?

[lucid jackal]

Nope

No world

[bleak night]

Be the change you wish to see in the world

Do it and parse well and some day someone will show up here asking why you did it

[wet echo]

i was wondering this same thing, but the amount of flawless form stacks you get from first dance going into 2nd sectech seems to outweigh the trinket's value

• obviously flag stacks

[solemn creek]

With tfd u get your cold blood s.t in your 1st dance window. So it shouldnt be that bad

In m+ how do play around rotten? Last time i played rotten was with the gloomblade build in "dragonflight"

[hazy breach]

You dont want to storm in dance for rotten specifically

But most of the time you should be going into a big pack with coup ready, so youll be doing storm for that, which incidently also applies fw

!coup the number 2 here on this

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[solemn creek]

Lets say u dont have coup and ur about to open: I.e. first pack of the dungeon

Would the sequence change?

[minor sorrel]

Since they buffed Black arrow to be the top st hunter Loadout weile still having good aoe + burst.

[minor sorrel]

I still keep eviscerating if there is a prio mob. FDK can kill all the smallies within 2 GCD anyway.

[hazy breach]

Frost loses way more prio doing aoe than sub does

BP vs evis is like a 5% difference in prio for 5% overall

As most of the damage comes from coup, unseen blade and sectech anyway

[urban egret]

when in the opener

do we press stone idol

before sec tec and shadowblades?

[lyric violet]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[rough patio]

why would you not hit it before flag

[lyric violet]

Hi ppl, someone of you know what my WA want to say to me with "Bug"?

[ornate lake]

It's so over roguebros

[alpine wraith]

only so many times "decent" dmg and no buffs is enough

[mystic bough]

Just re-apply poisons and it's gone

[iron plover]

[lyric violet]

Yep, thanks

But why? XD

[hollow creek]

guess it's your wa way to sign leeching

[urban egret]

idk bro im still learning

[swift tinsel]

after rupture before blades

[hollow creek]

coldblood or thistle tea?

[urban egret]

gotcha thanks

[mental kettle]

quick q

if we get sec tec back in first shadow dance during flag and blades

do we send or hold for 2nd dance

like if you send sec tec in last 1s of first dance is it grief because clones get unbuffed briefly

[hazy breach]

If the clones hit while you dont have dance up its bad yes

But you should generally still send whenever sectech is ready

It shouldnt line up in a way where thats possible (unless you wait a long ass time inbetween your dances)

[spice escarp]

Thats the leeching poison bug, can happen when you swap talents

[sterile quarry]

outside of flag/SB window should I be sending secret tech on CD as long as i have symbols up or should I be holding for SD as well?

[vale pine]

you should have both dance and symbols ready

[sterile quarry]

so hold until I can use both and don't worry about sending secret tech if I need to pool SDs and symbols for next flag/SB window?

[vale pine]

this might help

[sterile quarry]

appreciate it. I think I was getting caught up on sending secret tech as much as possible and led to some bad CD usage

[robust saddle]

is there a better way to sim for myth nexus king than patchwerk/light movement?

[signal moth]

pugging keys is torture

please, make us giga meta so i can play keys that are fun again lol

[wind path]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[solemn creek]

See it this way.. the aoe portion last 3 dance window.. rest is s.t

[wind path]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[lucid jackal]

Nope

[limpid sage]

how does light/heavy movement even work for us

do we sacrifice any uptime

[hazy breach]

Its jank as hell and not recommended for anybody afaik

[lucid jackal]

There's also no reason to use a different Sim style

Just put the patchwork in the bag

[spring trellis]

Where is the spreadsheet that shows what atrophic poison works on for raid

[swift tinsel]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[scenic plover]

there is no way i use black powder on add phase nexus king right?

[bleak night]

Ethically no

However

[scenic plover]

nah i wont then

[shrewd lantern]

the difference is minimal

[scenic plover]

we kinda miss some aoe dam but i dont see myself doing that when we also struggle for titan dam

[shrewd lantern]

this point in the tier the titan should just die

since your cds are back

[lucid jackal]

We should also be at a point in the Tier where all the adds die instantly

Just press evis on the titan

[scenic plover]

this is not true for people taht prog that boss right now :)

we are on 4 heals too

!log

if anyone wants to take a look for fun

[warm marlin]

If I remember correctly the princess gets clapped and the reaper damage shouldn’t matter too much

I pressed eviscerate always

[thorn yacht]

what's the optimal way to use the Lily/Netherprism trinket pairing?

raidbots says it's what i should use, but i don't even know how the APL handles it

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[thorn yacht]

thank you

[old scroll]

hey guys, is simming dung slice for sub rogue, for M+ the way to go?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[old scroll]

Once again, thanks!

[zinc river]

which Tt are ppl playing now subtle m+ ?

can someone send link

i see some ppl with finality some without

[wet echo]

you can play a few different versions, the difference is minimal

if you like finality play finality

if you like rotten play rotten

[limpid sage]

if you're cool you play rotten

[astral axle]

and if you're rotten you play finality

[slate marlin]

i dont think rotten is that valuable with the amount of crit we can have

[limpid sage]

yeah well you're wrong and I'm right

[astral axle]

[dusty totem]

Just feels bad when rotten sims worse

[dusk stone]

For keys you want a lot of crit, with crit flask im at around 33%

Storm itself is like 60% crit chance

So what happens if you have FW application on pull and it falls off during the end 1/3rd of blades

[lucid jackal]

U just suck it up

[dusk stone]

You should be storming between coups and you will have coup

[shadow mason]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[dusk stone]

So its a 40% chance to not have FW maybe

Rotten just doesnt have that much value

[edgy hinge]

Do you use Coup De Grace in aoe or do you prio black powder before using your coup de grace if more than 5 targets?

[latent finch]

!aoe

[swift tinsel]

coup over bp

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[edgy hinge]

thanks

[swift tinsel]

coup is a big button

[karmic harbor]

@fossil forge i see you, 17 resi note floodgate

[fossil forge]

@karmic harbor this u bro

HNAHAH

i need playtime money

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/now-kith-mike-tyson-gif-13249709

[fossil forge]

come donate

we can do dps race on my alt

[mental kettle]

everyone in my guild is going bm

i cant

nerf this shit already please

[lucid jackal]

OP and its easy

Perfect combo

[mental kettle]

yeah i know

melee class but at range

that alone is broken

bm should be ranged outlaw

RTB = roll the beast

you pick 1-5 pets

[swift tinsel]

should randomize Pack Leader pets for the effect

[crystal bone]

surely tuning patch soon

or at least a bug fix patch

seems like they just clocked out of tww

clocked into midnight

[tropic nimbus]

idt they are gonna nerf anything pretty sure they are making it a 4fun season before stat squish

[mighty citrus]

did anyone manage to play dim myth with only 1 wl? 😄

[chrome palm]

wl?

[mighty citrus]

one warlock

due to gates in p1

oh there are some logs

[sullen hare]

debatable

we'll get a tuning pass that breaks things a week before launch and that's it

[chrome palm]

i believe its been killed on reclear with 1 lock not sure if for prog

[mighty citrus]

need to fine the log

[sacred magnet]

is weaponmaster really that bad for a boss like nexus king?

[chrome palm]

basically any fight with aoe/cleave weaponmaster loses lots of value

[karmic harbor]

removed from party

per attempt tip is actually disgusting

[slate marlin]

Kek

How much was that guy expecting

Well how much are people actualy paying?

[karmic harbor]

depends how many times he intentionally griefs the key

i paid 100k to get priory 17 done

but for the piss dungs i just wanna spend 50k

[slate marlin]

I refuse to pay

To these guys

[karmic harbor]

seems like nobody knows that a good sub rogue will perform better than these fotm rerollers

at least at 17

prolly 18+ hunters and dks actually have hands maybe

yet to be in a key where a dk outdpsd me

[hazy breach]

I looked at the top log on nexus king, he is using weaponmaster. He got a total of 9 combo points from it

And also the +15% damage on backstab and strike

Thats over the entire 7 minute fight

Because of the way the talent works it procs after shadow technique has already given you your combo points, so most of the time you never get any combo points from it during dance.
Lets assume you have 4 shadow technique stacks and 0 combo point, you press strike > puts you at 3 > comsumes your 4 sht stacks and puts you at 7 > weaponmaster procs and strikes which completely wastes all of the cp

But unfortunately we have to path through either this or the first dance to get inevitability, and 4 seconds of extra dance across a 7+ minute fight aint too hot either

[sullen hare]

tfd feels great in m+. shame it isn't a choice node with something that goes well with raid, like something similar that makes sblades give the tfd longer dance

[rugged relic]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[rugged relic]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[solemn lance]

I can thit that magic 10mil overall in keys

[dusk stone]

who here runs exhilarating execution in keys

[solemn lance]

i do

[dusk stone]

well im seeing a lot of fotm sub rogues actually X.X

[karmic harbor]

crazy

why wouldnt you just go hunter

absolutely bonkers class rn

[left ledge]

because sub rogue was op since the start

hunter gained traction just a bit ago

[karmic harbor]

sub rogue op?

[empty plume]

Top dimensius dps in rwf!! Op!!

[fossil forge]

@karmic harbor i gave up

[calm haven]

How much of an optimization is it to use cold blood on ur second sec-tec during SB/Flag

like 1%?

[left ledge]

ye sub rogue is pretty op

just has weak ST

but kind of doesnt matter for almost all the meaningful content

[hazy breach]

Idk if its fair to call it OP, i mean yeah its good, but other specs are better/similar at the things we are good at and also good on pure ST

[left ledge]

yeah sure, frost dk and what

[hazy breach]

Hunter

[left ledge]

ok so because they're better

we're not op?

we still take a shit on most specs

[dusk stone]

what sub really has going for it at least in keys is how survivable it is

[hazy breach]

I mean idk

[solemn creek]

Sub is not even close to op

[dusk stone]

i get so much value from the 10% shield on exhilarating

[hazy breach]

Again, im not saying sub is bad

[dusk stone]

i dont think its op

its good and has some weaknesses

[hazy breach]

Or perhaps we just have different definitions of the word overpowered

[left ledge]

ok maybe you can argue the exact semantics of "op"

[thorn yacht]

people don't even know what op means

[left ledge]

yeah

im not saying it is broken

lmao

[regal sky]

Opening post? One piece

[left ledge]

i mean even if we have diff definitions of op

saying "not even close to op" has to be a reach

come on

[karmic harbor]

So many people have been streaming floodgate 17 resi keys today and just depleting over and over again

[thorn yacht]

"overpowered" basically means there's no reason to use anything else

[left ledge]

not really?

that would imply only one spec/combination is ever "overpowered"

[hazy breach]

Spec is really good on dimensius, forgeweaver and soulbinder. On those bosses id agree

But then its the worst or among the worst on 4 other bosses

[thorn yacht]

maybe only one spec is ever overpowered, then

[left ledge]

i mean it was very good at nexus prog too

[thorn yacht]

overpowered is not the same thing as overtuned

[left ledge]

considering tuning is literally the power you give a spec

i would say overtuned is overpowered?

[thorn yacht]

something can be overtuned without being overpowered

but something overpowered is sure to be overtuned, that much is true

[left ledge]

overpowered can be from design too you know

not just tuning?

[thorn yacht]

that's true too

[hazy breach]

Like how boomkin was OP in undermine?

Because it was good on stix

[thorn yacht]

or like shadow priests on OAB

[left ledge]

whats the comparison there

i dont get it

im not talking about only raid

just so we're aware here

im talking about sub in general right now

including m+

i dont think its fair to say we're just "good"

[hazy breach]

All the fotm andies have swapped off sub for m+

its all DKs and havoc

[left ledge]

ok well this is just a semantics thing i guess

im not trying to say sub is the best there is in the game

i just think for the content thats out, the bosses, and m+ sub has done pretty well

[keen yew]

i think a good starting point would be for you to state what "op" means (for you thus)

[tidal marsh]

I think a good starting point would be for you to state what "over" means

[shadow lance]

I think a good starting point would be for you to state what "power" means

[left ledge]

I think for the main pain points of high end content in this game, sub has performed clearly over average. In my opinion at least, this isn't an absolute thing lmao

[lone basin]

Does interlopers reinforced sandals work in PvP ?

The 40% boost to reshii wraps boots

[keen yew]

imo, it might be arguably above average for m+ (if you consider non meta specs of other classes) but sub feels rather average on the raid content whatever the rwf shown, this is quite comp dependant

[wet echo]

unlikely but wrong place to ask, we only do pve here

#pvp might have an idea

[solemn lance]

Mplus feels strong until you play with a good frostdk and a hunter lol

[hybrid beacon]

Is it better to macro backstab into your shadow dance button or should I just keep hitting it naturally?

[crystal oasis]

You can macro it together, if you only hit it once you wont cast backstab

[daring marlin]

Some bm hunter mocked me for having low dps on first pull with s+ tier sub, are we s tier?

[karmic harbor]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[karmic harbor]

they're delusional dw about it

very curious that there are 25 bm hunters on the front page of raiderio and 0 sub rogues

[civic lava]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusk stone]

were really strong yeah but its a bm hunter

they have brain of ret paladin

[signal moth]

this note meta needs to fuck off

i list a key and its just spammed by people wanting to pay me to play

any pug keys i have to pay to play like wtf

boring ass shit is this

[karmic harbor]

im gonna have to pay to get floodgate 17 done

[signal moth]

they have to sort out m+ finder, unless mates are on its legit impossible to play the game

like lol

i put note to see what people are offering, this is a joke

150k for a try lol

[lilac stag]

Lashga’s friends seemed to have expanded their friend zone

[hazy breach]

Until the last week when theyre likely to help him out once more when they realize he is a bit below cutoff

Some nice friends fr fr

[signal moth]

you saying this guy who lists all his achievements isnt legit?

[neat surge]

!

[prime sable]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lilac stag]

At one point he was. Now he’s washed and bought his way back into relevancy.

tried to bullshit his way saying friends helped him last season.

showed his lgbtq phobia jn here and is now banned

[light imp]

Is there an easy way to sim just the crafted rings with different stats. gear compare on raid bots basically say "dont use me" and on droptimiser i dont see an option to separate out the rings

[lilac stag]

Congrats. You’re up to date on a shithead.

[lilac stag]

Top Gear. Add it. Hit the + and change stats

[light imp]

how do i add it to top gear? am i really this blind?

dont anser that

i just found it

[lilac stag]

There a text box towards the top of the page

Select 720 ilvl

[light imp]

leave me to wallow in my blindness lol

thank you

[lilac stag]

np

There’s a lot of text on that page. People miss it all the time.

[urban egret]

any1 wanna go through my logs and see what im doing wrong on sub for soulbinder i didnt realize i was THAT ass lmao

[lilac stag]

Use !log

[urban egret]

!log

[hazy breach]

Did you use shadow dance when adds werent up

[urban egret]

oh sick

[hazy breach]

Because that fight is all pad

[urban egret]

gotcha

the adds died in 2 seconds

it was a stacked pug

so i jus focused on boss damage

[lilac stag]

either bad dance or sent flag too early on the big add group

You won’t parse like that

You need Sectech going off as they spawn

[urban egret]

gotcha ok

[lilac stag]

assuming you’re playing the rest correctly

[urban egret]

then im not so worried about it them

thats what im mostly asking

[lilac stag]

[urban egret]

am i playing it right i got noooo clue

i jus press the buttons

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lilac stag]

this ain’t ret hahaha

You do need some thought to the buttons

[urban egret]

well yk what i mean like i jus press em when i think i should press em

like if sec tec is up

and 1.5's are like 30s out

i send a symbols + dance

[versed swift]

does shiv increase our heal cut from wound poison? for hoa mini boss?

[urban egret]

are we ever supposed to run wound posion? i jus use instant poison+numbing/atrophic

like always

[versed swift]

no, only for last mini boss in hoa

[urban egret]

ohhh gotcha

[short radish]

potentially also first bit of eco dome

[urban egret]

gotch

[lilac stag]

The kelp in floodgate

[short radish]

and spinny mobs in floodgate

[urban egret]

riiiight ok i didnt think of that tbh

[versed swift]

good to know

but like

does shiv make it stronger

[lilac stag]

@hazy breach are you pushing keys at all this season?

[hazy breach]

Not now

Maybe later

Depends

[lilac stag]

Can’t be bothered to spec into it.

[lilac stag]

Seems weird to push before turbo, but idk

Prophet says he needs to or he’s not sharp

[urban egret]

weird question if i press symbols and i press it like again 5 secs later do i lose uptime on it pressing it in the middle of the first one?

[lilac stag]

It should be additive, but you’re gonna fuck your whole reason to really use it (empowering Sectech)

We actively try to not use it 2x

[versed swift]

thats fair, just seems like that hoa miniboss's heal is a tough dps check so anything you can get to help with ti

[lilac stag]

Wound is enough

[urban egret]

gotcha. i think im screwing up empower combo point for sec tec slightly

[lilac stag]

Sectech needs to be first or second finisher after sod is activated

[urban egret]

i havent gotten it down to a science yet

right but sometimes sec tec's cd

like doesnt line up at times?

[lilac stag]

You either had bad uptime /CDR or wasted sod at some point.

You can send dance and hold sod til the middle of it

[urban egret]

gotcha

just to get sec tec off cd?

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[prime sable]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[gleaming locust]

feel like my secret technique dmg is kind of low in keys. Doing 13-14s and it is only doing about 1.2B overall and only attributing to 900k dps for the key, does this sound right or low?

[hollow snow]

very niche question but do you guys feel like it's a waste storming for coup opt in the araz damage amp?

[sullen hare]

I don't because I assume it's a damage loss to not do it

[hollow snow]

yeah under normal circumstances 100%, i just figured because the amp is so short it almost feels like a wasted global

but then again the delayed coup refund exists🙃

[plush roost]

Its not bad to push early so you learn the small tech znd strats

Learned you can stealth and grab the rp item in streets without pulling the lackeys for example

Just do all the rp while mail room is gathered

[still depot]

Hold up? You can? So picking up the thing don't break you out from stealth? Hmm gotta try that next time

[topaz agate]

bro i dont fuggin recognise anyone in these channels anymore

who tf do i harass

@pliant topaz oi cutie wyd

[pliant topaz]

my goat ikr...

i miss when we had the homies here

pxb and push and stealthi and scana

good times

[topaz agate]

dont make me cry

ill fkin do it

[pliant topaz]

fuck i made myself cry its cooked

atleast we still have subti and hacha and eleem

[topaz agate]

how hard is sub to pick up

wth

@vale pine why racist

[lucid jackal]

Not really if U have any experience on rogeu tbqh

So ur probs fine

[topaz agate]

do you rly sectech outside of dance?

[lucid jackal]

Not really

Its like a super minor minmax that without doing properly is a massive massive DPS loss

So idt anybody actually does it

[lucid jackal]

Oh

Like yeah, sometimes

but rarely

[topaz agate]

i assume you still do a dance/symbols rotation outside of cds right

[vagrant sinew]

fotmdk why are playing rogue

[topaz agate]

as long as you're going into cds with 3 stacks of sod and 2 stacks of dance?

[topaz agate]

cuz

multi spec freakazoid

[lucid jackal]

U need like 1 and a half of both

U do symbols + dance + sectec with 10 or less seconds on its CD

[topaz agate]

we also only CB on 2nd sectech right

[lucid jackal]

and then u stop using symbols/dance at 30 seconds left on flags CD

Only on 2nd sectec in CDs yeah

[topaz agate]

on 2nd flag would you still rupture for DM stack?

[wind canopy]

You’re suppose to be retired

[topaz agate]

even if you've already kept it up outside of cds?

or you would just go flag + sod + dance + sectech

[lucid jackal]

u dont ruptuire ever in dance

[topaz agate]

nah i mean on opener you flag + rupture

then dance rotatoin

[lucid jackal]

Yeah

[topaz agate]

would you do the same thing on your second flag

[lucid jackal]

It usually just lines up to be the case

[topaz agate]

oh dm is only during dance i forgot

[lucid jackal]

but if rupture is already up, or u want fast CDs for dimensius or smthing

U just do flag dance sod sectec blades

[topaz agate]

kk

minmaxing blades press for during sectech global is cringe

but im guessing a big deal?

[lucid jackal]

minor defal

but the spec is like, 10-15 nickle and dime optimizations

[topaz agate]

seems pretty chill tbh

kind of a fan

when you guys vanishing?

as a filler?

[lucid jackal]

whenever ur bored

[topaz agate]

oh also why tfd?

[lucid jackal]

cuz WM is very bad

WM is better when fights are like, 7? minutes

[topaz agate]

but does tfd even do anything after first use

[lucid jackal]

Nope

but it does big things on the first ones

Especially when fights rae short (even shorter during turbo boost)

[topaz agate]

damn

crazy that wm is that bad mlao

[lucid jackal]

It just doesnt do a lot

For example I played it on dimensius because we didn't need P1 damage

It proced a grand total of 2 times in the encounter

Which is like, 0.05% damage or smthing

[topaz agate]

surely thats just bugged no?

[lucid jackal]

Nope

Just not a very high impact talent

Think right, when it procs on backstab, its effectively nothing right

So its about when it replicated shadowstrikes

But in dance, the combo points matter less, so its just about raw damage

and then its just like, 15% of your shadow strikes deal double damage"

Like this was our first dimensius kill for example

Oops

cropped out the hits

16 total shadowstrike casts

15% of 16 is 2.4

So yeah, 2 extra shadowstrike hits

[topaz agate]

oh but thats p3 only

[lucid jackal]

Well sure, but the extra hits also dont flurry with nimble flurry

[topaz agate]

ah

[lucid jackal]

U can call that a bug if you want but it is how the talent works

Even in p1 its 19 shadowstrike casts vs 23 hits

Meanwhile I started playing TFD because I wanted more P1 damage, and realized how inconsiquential it is in P3 anyway

I had 21 total shadowstrike casts

So I got 2 additional shadowstrike casts compared to weaponmaster (even if it got 2 more hits from TFD)

[topaz agate]

what about the haste during dance talent

the other choice node

i know haste is ass

[lucid jackal]

Bad

[tepid trellis]

Dog

[topaz agate]

but like surely you get some benefit out of it

[tepid trellis]

Shit

[lucid jackal]

Just trust tfd is good

[topaz agate]

nah i trust

i meant more for long fights like dimmy

[lucid jackal]

U can either day tfd for p1 damage, or weapon master for a near irrelevant amount of p3 damage

On that fight, neither do much

[topaz agate]

and sub still does that much damage

crazy

[lucid jackal]

Good spec

[warm marlin]

Don’t listen to this noob, I had a whole 4 procs of shadowstrike WM during p3

[tepid trellis]

Prism broken

[warm marlin]

Highrolled a WM during the damage amp that also crit

+5M damage

[topaz agate]

ye prism is kinda pumpin

[warm marlin]

Humongous

[topaz agate]

gotta get me one of those on like

every spec i play lmao

thank you for all the answers gentlemen

ill be back some time in the near future to hassle you again

[teal dock]

one question, do we use ST with Symbols outside of shadowdance?

[alpine burrow]

!spec

[wicked jolt]

All Specs are good and have niches and strengths that they play to. All three specs are looking viable with Assassination/Subtlety being preferred in raids. Mythic+ meta has not solidified yet but Assassination looked promising during beta.

Be aware that Simulations are a tool to be used to compare things like talents/gear/rotations, they are not the definite answer to what is meta or not meta. While outlaw is ahead in sims right now, especially dungeonslice, you have to take a step back and realize these are synthetic/generic situations that we use as a baseline. Dungeonslice has always been a great showing for outlaw simply due to the fight style matching well with the spec. This is not unusual or unheard of.

You can view logs of the raid when it comes out Here, or view the mythic+ run leaderboard Here.

[thorny stump]

unless im reading it wrong why does wowhead say to use shuriken storm for 2nd proc of coup de grace, when it seems like only back stab and shadowstrike proc it from unseen blade

[empty plume]

tier set lets you coup twice in a row (without building up Escalating Blade again)

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[thorny stump]

but why would it specifically say to shuriken storm? just letting us know to use it in aoe for combo points before you coup?

[empty plume]

read the above

"explanation"

and "number 2"

[thorny stump]

ah

[empty plume]

sectech gives you two unseen blades for free

[thorny stump]

how much of a dps loss is it actually if u mess up seems like maybe very low ?

[empty plume]

but you don't want to waste those unseen blades with coup available

dunno dps diff

the optimization is easy enough to perform

[thorny stump]

ye tru

[empty plume]

you only do the storm like that during shadowblades or with 4+ targets

sometimes it's coup storm coup

sometimes it's like... dance-sod-backstab-sectech storm coup coup

the purpose is preserving an available unseen blade proc

which would be 'wasted' if you are already 4/4 Escalating Blade (it does damage but does not progress toward the next coup)

just depends when your coup becomes available and whether you have unseen blades from sectech that would be wasted etc

[crystal atlas]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[hoary stag]

how could i up my overall dmg in m+? atm i am stuck in 12s/13s with average of 6mill dps, dungeon slice on 6 minutes says dmg should be around 8mill. And while i understand the value of simming, sims wont have difference in tanks/pulls/teamcomp and i am not good at comparing log to average dungeon ran

[winter ice]

is there a command in this discord for simming crafted items

[stuck lance]

rasid bots

[short radish]

!simulationcraft

!simulation

!raidbots

i tried my best

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/how-to-use-raidbots-and-run-character-simulations-6050

a bit out of date

but good enough

[winter ice]

was professions - epic i was looking for in droptemizer

[shadow lance]

What's your ilvl? Do you have prism? Overall vary a lot from a key to another

[short radish]

play with a shaman/warrior/monk

also dont hold cooldowns

[jade summit]

Trying out sub today for vibes after years of being an Assa Only Andy and having the absolute most day 1 noob question that I can't seem to find an answer for in the guide..... what poisons am I running?

[tepid trellis]

[jade summit]

i might be stupid just bear with me here

[tepid trellis]

Guess

There are 2 Lethal ones and 2 non lethal

[jade summit]

I mean my assumption is instant + atrophic

[tepid trellis]

And you use one of each

Bingo

[jade summit]

cool

[tepid trellis]

See u aint stupid

[jade summit]

Sure, but "hey which poison" "instant+atro" "k thx, thats what i thought" is the exact same amount of mental effort from both of us

[tepid trellis]

Also there are No stupid questions

Only stupid answers From a bored me on the train

[jade summit]

that explains it :P thanks for sort of answering it in a roundabout way

[tepid trellis]

[jade summit]

enjoy ya train ride im gonna smack some delves and see if im not back on assa tomorrow

[ivory vigil]

i was. Was way too focused on my action bars while playing sub. Too many CDs to keep track of

[jade summit]

I feel that, I'm gonna try and stick through long enough that I'm not staring at my bars but it's def been faster so far. tracking secret tech is the hardest for me so far

[short radish]

it seems like it but it's really not as much as you think

speaking purely from a single target raid standpoint

sectech is the only cd that you need to track

for the majority of it

sectech and flag

because when you sectech you press symbols and dance

and those are generally up if sectech is up

the way you kinda manage your cooldowns is

look at sectech

then look at flag

if flag has less than 40 seconds on it then you look at sdance/symbols

its just a prio system

you don't need to know the status of everything all the time