subtlety

[scenic plover]

not all caps i think

[mental kettle]

!log

if anyone can take a look at my mythic araz log i would love help

i put some more context in the thingy

[severe fox]

question about netherprim, if im running it with antenna do i just pop it on every cd set?

[karmic harbor]

you can pad harder on soulbinder

https://tenor.com/view/rookie-numbers-gif-26135237

[scenic plover]

i wasnt in for soulbinder for a while

also idk i am not good enough to pad there

my nexus king add dam looks sad too, getting outdamaged by bm hunters and stuff

shouldnt i be way higher here? i even use cloak to stay in circles

[obtuse shard]

There is no way you would win against bm hunter in its current state brother

[near copper]

I'm new to the spec, a silly question, in the guides I see that you always have to use secret technique along with death symbols, but these can only be used 1-2 times between CDs, if I have a secret technique available but I don't have any dance or symbols to use, should I use it anyway or is it only used in combination with those two CDs?

[dusk stone]

The only rule there is you need sectec up for cds

[near copper]

ok, thanks! that wasn't clear to me from the guides. 😊

[pure flare]

wtf am i doing wrong

[warm marlin]

why is your black powder all the way down there

[pure flare]

i only black powder out of dance and above 3 targets

[vale pine]

perfect 👍

[warm marlin]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[warm marlin]

you should definitely be casting BP in dance

[pure flare]

so i shouldnt evis in aoe in dance

unless coup de grace is rdy

so i generate with shuriken strike then spend on blackpowder

?

[vale pine]

you evis in dance if you have coup

else you bp

[pure flare]

ah lol

ty

[vale pine]

(evis transforms to coup)

4+ bp as stated in the comand above

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[signal moth]

hey guys reckon i should craft for 18% dps increase?

[pure flare]

i thought i had to evis all time in dance

but okay, makes sense

[gray falcon]

I need an adult!!

[shrewd lantern]

I mean the gain is bigger to bp in some pulls like the murloc area of gambit.

[amber thicket]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[gray falcon]

how do i get coup to come up more often?

[shrewd lantern]

rng

[gray falcon]

seen peoples logs and its like 4th out? mine is like 7th -_-, spamming backstab

[shrewd lantern]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[gray falcon]

i see

[nocturne shard]

anything i can read about prism and how to use it correctly?

[shadow lance]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[nocturne shard]

ty

is this for st and aoe?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[flint ravine]

Worth doing a third craft on a neck? Or just try get mommas

Had no luck on saldahars neck or mommas

[rugged relic]

is there a bad side to using a sword/mace/etc on offhand?

[hazy breach]

Yes

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[dusk stone]

If youre using logic gate omega and nerubian signet you have a lot of crit and vers, the neck craft can be used to fix mastery

[lofty cave]

How this looking boys this a timed 14 prio where do I need to improve appreciate all feedback

[fathom adder]

how many gcds fit into a first dance buffed dance? 10?

[tepid trellis]

12

1gcd Per sec of Dance

[scenic plover]

can we get less pixels on those phone pictures

[scenic plover]

use win+shift+s pls

[shadow lance]

Press more BP and do a freaking screenshot pls

[scenic plover]

:)

[shadow lance]

?

[iron plover]

How realistic is it to pug mythic mana forge to fract 🤔

[fair anchor]

if I wanted to use Nado in M+ before CDs, I'm absolutely not pooling sht stacks before sending right ?

[tepid trellis]

Doable

Only araz is annoying

[spark sandal]

hi, quick question, on HoA, the miniboss before the last boss, does wound poison work on him?

[latent finch]

yea

[tepid trellis]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[spark sandal]

alrighty, then it was worth putting it on

[scenic plover]

even better when you skill the node that makes it 5 stacks

barely heals then

[random comet]

I forgot that wound poison doesn’t proc caustic and played that key as assass the other day

Oops

[plush roost]

died to last boss of floodyG

hate this game

[scenic plover]

that damn against a frost dk an dh is big

i mean i cant do that much

[random comet]

I can barely do that much on a single aoe pull 😭

[plush roost]

6 mins left and we brick ntlikethis

[fair anchor]

was this the dark brew cook ?

[plush roost]

No normal tea 2x finality

[karmic harbor]

https://www.take-a-screenshot.org/

also a log would probably tell people more

[frail path]

I find it hard to even find any group listing aiming for anything more than 3/8. Been in one or two but they never fill up

[fallow ginkgo]

sup homies are we playing the rotten or do we hate it atm

[finite sequoia]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[mental kettle]

Can someone explain to me why macroing symbols and dance is bad?

[hazy breach]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[mental kettle]

thanks

why dont we macro symbols with sec tec then

[kind dust]

I'm barely using black powder in M+ which I'm assuming is incorrect? Is it only on specific pulls that I should be relying on prio + nimble?

[lucid jackal]

because you dont always symbols sectec

If ur sectec is 10 seconds left, u can go sylbols evis sectec

[lucid jackal]

4+ targets press BP

[mental kettle]

i dont get this part, but then you are supercharging evis instead of sectec?

[lucid jackal]

Supercharger is 2 finishers

[mental kettle]

ah I've must've misread

thanks

[rugged relic]

do i need to track fazed on my target for aoe

[alpine wraith]

yes you dont want to coup a target without fazed and FW

[flint ravine]

ive got myth logic gate and the ring from priory atm

[flint ravine]

necromancer band

[last gate]

is crafting shoulder dumb?

[placid elk]

depends what else u got

[hazy breach]

Nah its fine

If it sims higher go ahead

[rugged relic]

whats FW?

[hollow snow]

find weakness

[rugged relic]

oh yeah

i just swapped from outlaw to try sub and doing some 10s to try stuff

and this is my break down on a 10 floodgate maybe things dont live too long but

nimble flurry should be higher no?

i dont understand it

[placid elk]

nimble should be first lol

and by a large ammount

maybe you just pad too much, hard to say since we didnt see the dungeon

[warm marlin]

Where is your coup

And why is shuriken storm so high

[random comet]

We’re playing DF sub by the looks

[warm marlin]

Almost certainly you just aren’t pressing shadowstrike in dance (you should be) so you aren’t proccing unseen blade and getting coup

And coup is a massive portion of your nimble flurry

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[plain void]

is it worth to do a ss with the rotten to apply find weakness in larger packs?

[hazy breach]

Not during dance

[rugged relic]

thats exactly what i have in my mind, DF sub

[random comet]

It’s changed a bit, Ryldd has you sorted

Sub is actually outlaw now

[rugged relic]

do i not press shuriken storm in aoe then during SD?

when do i press shuriken storm? outside of SD?

[plain void]

you press after coup if you have 4 set

[hazy breach]

If youre just getting started and are confused about lots of things, i would just recommend to just do the singletarget rotation even on aoe

Just swap backstab out of dance for storm

[rugged relic]

is it because of flawless form?

should i be tracking it

[sullen yarrow]

hey, how my dps looks?

halls 17

[rugged relic]

kms

[iron plover]

Ah is it that bad?

[still depot]

I track it. But with how the rotation works out in a key, it's very little time where you don't have flawless form. I personally try to keep it up but when watching vods of some of the greats, it does not feel like they actively track it

[iron plover]

I spent a bit in one on week 3, haven’t been back since

[random comet]

Does knowing how many stacks you have affect your decision making?

[karmic harbor]

If you upload a log it'll tell you how good your dmg was compared to other sub rogues at that key level

[sullen yarrow]

i mean in %

it was really bad

i know

[upper narwhal]

Number of stacks has 0 impact on your decision making, just need to know if it's up or not but even then that's only really relevant in low target aoe

[plain void]

m+ parses don't mean much tbh

[random comet]

Agreed. I try and hide anything that doesn’t change how I play, with FF I think you still want to track if it’s up or not at all but could probably get by just fine not bothering

Most WA packs seem to err on the side of showing everything though

[vast tusk]

Hi guys, i just started PVP and i cannot use cheap shot more than once idk why?

[chrome palm]

must be in stealth or subterfuge or dance to use cheap shot

using cheap shot breaks stealth

[vast tusk]

I was using shadow dance and I was hitting Cheap Shot for sure, but it wasnt doing anything

[plain void]

probs dr

[vast tusk]

dr?

[plain void]

diminishing returns

i think the duration goes down to 1/8 and then stuns stops working

or they have bubble or some shit and is immune

[still depot]

Are these 14M numbers in FG achievable without both prism and forge? I'm running mythic pacemaker and H prism and my best is like 10.4M... or am I just missing skill. XD

[plush roost]

No idea i havent been pushin much this season so i kinda wowed myself with that one (would really end up 12.5-13m since we had last boss to kill still but we bricked)

Pacemaker prism is "fine" i think but i think forge+prism pushes the limit of sub in keys

[still depot]

Like I felt pretty good with 10.8 but the fact forge and prism could add another 2-3M

Makes me wanna do raid haha

[plush roost]

Well forge isnt creating 2m

Thats just routing/skill/good raidbuffs

[wispy crystal]

sub is literally so garbage on mythic loomithar progression.

parsed a 14 / 100 cause soaking pylons, dodging shit, and the boss hit box being so tiny on P2 🙁

[plush roost]

Your ranged probably arent baiting well of youre forced to dodge things and the beam soak can be in melee range

[still depot]

Fuq, i need more skill! I knew it. Ty for feedback tho

[plush roost]

And your tank isnt moving enough if youre losing p2 dam

[wispy crystal]

for progression, everyone is swapping to the tangles so sending shadowdance +sTec on it. yikes man

[wispy crystal]

yeah the top Damage for that fight was hunter, mage and frost dk

basically any class with some form of ranged attack

[plush roost]

That wont affect the parse tho, threads count

[zinc river]

Hi, in a situation where you have coup de grace ready and you have your dance Window ready too, should we consume 2x coups and then start dance window or should we enter dance into back stab into secret and then using 2x coups?

[short radish]

bad tanking can defs play a part in p2 with uptime

but also

you got 4 flags in a 6 minute flag

aka you lost a flag cast

you also got unlucky in the opener

so just roll unseen blade higher or do the cheese

reminder that parses are based on the spec

not every single log in the game

[hidden jasper]

Is buffing a coup cast with supercharger worth it, or is it there some sort of "cap" at that point

[short radish]

no

evis scales linearly (im pretty sure)

or at least there's no point in going out of your way to buff coup

you just want to buff sectech

[hidden jasper]

Sometimes would just happen that it would land on a coup after a sectech so was wondering

[wispy crystal]

yeah flag could have been better. i was running around soaking pylons, then breaking webs.

[chrome palm]

you can supercharge 2nd coup if it doesnt make a difference in when you cast secret technique

[wispy crystal]

what do you mean by unlucky in the opener fimbul?

[short radish]

there's doing mechanics and then there's setting yourself on fire to keep the raid alive

[fossil forge]

no double ub i think

[hidden jasper]

Yeah, I found in dungeons this was possible to do quite frequently

[short radish]

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[short radish]

you didn't get your coup off in your first dance

[wispy crystal]

oh dang, i just realized

wow how did you pull this out, it looks good

[short radish]

sending sdance on breaking tangles is fine

but you still gotta do your rotation normally

you cant delay your flag for 30 seconds

[wispy crystal]

im wondering where i missed my flag

[short radish]

1:30

[wispy crystal]

AH, i wasted dance charge on tangle

[short radish]

i assume because you sent a dance charge

[wispy crystal]

and had no dance when blade/flag was ready

[short radish]

at like 1:20

yeah

just dont do that

[wispy crystal]

damn, yeah that was a mistake

[short radish]

you'd rather wipe than do that

[wispy crystal]

i probably just go assas for ST 🙁

[short radish]

when you get the kill

no one is going to go

thanks luurch for fucking up yourparse so you could kill the tangles. we really appreciated it

[wispy crystal]

we got the kill on that pull though

[short radish]

but yeah 6.5minute f ight should have gotten 5 flags

[wispy crystal]

LOL!!! yeah in fact the hunter that won a astral antenna on heroic won the astral antenna again on mythic

fcking hell

[short radish]

exactly

you do your rotation

[hidden jasper]

What are your current trinkets?

[short radish]

you adjust if required

[hidden jasper]

Luurch

[short radish]

so maybe you save a dance for a tangle

but if you need to hold you hold

[wispy crystal]

my trinket is Champion track Netherprism + heroic Pacemaker

[hidden jasper]

Oof

[wispy crystal]

got it ill do that next week during our clear again

[hidden jasper]

But welcome to the pacemaker gang haha

[wispy crystal]

im so annoyed cause DKs are rolling on netherprism

[hidden jasper]

Stuck in mythic prism + mythic pacemaker prison myself

[wispy crystal]

and i lost the roll

[hidden jasper]

Not too bad though tbh

[wispy crystal]

goodness you got mythic prism + pacemaker? XD

[hidden jasper]

Yeah but our Forge drops have been awful everytime haha

[wispy crystal]

can i ask for soulbinder, when the big group of adds spawn in the middle

we hold flag/blades for that group right?

[short radish]

yes

[hidden jasper]

Your second set of cds yes

[wispy crystal]

or do we send flag/blades on the tube break adds?

[short radish]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/soulbinder-naazindhri

[wispy crystal]

some idiots fcked up during the raid, and the adds didnt spawn. gimping my DPS significantly

they didnt break the tubes properly, but we still killed mythic soulbinder

so my sTec usually hits 1 add or none

instead of 2 adds

[wispy crystal]

this is the point where the remainer adds all come out right at 2mins ?

[short radish]

yeah

[wispy crystal]

ok so for the adds that come out in the container before them...do i send a dance + stec?

let me take a look whether dance was used

[short radish]

click around on lorrgs

and see when dances are being casted

[wispy crystal]

seems like it does cause those adds take 200% increased damage. great for pad

[short radish]

its not pad

the adds need to die

[wispy crystal]

1.47mins - dance + sTec
2.03mins - dance / blades / flag +sTec full send

[wispy crystal]

oh yes sorry. btw, do we use blackpowder when all the 5-7 adds are grouped up?

raid leader is yelling priority damage on phaseblades

i feel like evis would give higher cleave damage with flawless form?

[short radish]

yeah you use black powder

you dont get that much "prio"

from not black powdering

[wispy crystal]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xBcgqH2PDVvwQnA6?fight=25&type=damage-done

i went assas for plexus and did decently.
reminder to self to stick to assas for pure ST in future

sub shines when we can actually USE flawless form + nimble flurry to do something

[short radish]

i mean yeah sure

but youre also misunderstanding parses

the parse is in comparison to your spec only

so even if MM hunters are doing 2mill more damage to sub

that has 0 impact on your parse

[plain zephyr]

Can someone please explain this to me? I'm not fully understanding the interaction. What I think I'm understanding is, we basically eat an Unseen Blade stack because we cannot gain stacks while the buff is applied to us, and therefore any Shadow Strike we cast with the buff up to gain combo points is eating Unseen Blade procs?

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[wispy crystal]

oh. but it looks bad on details though seeing myself on 10th place instead of possible higher with assas

even though im only competing against other sub players technically on the logs

cause people only see details mainly. whether you are 99 percentile of the spec, they probably wont care other than myself

[short radish]

details are temporary

parses are forever

[wispy crystal]

so if you are 99th percentile but 10th place behind all the mages/hunters/frost dks.

then thats what most people would see you as

[short radish]

parses allow you to leave shitty guilds and move up

and like okay sure

sub is really dogshit on loomi

its 250k behind assi

but its not like assi is still amazing

assi is just lesser shit

[wispy crystal]

im in weekend casual sunday guild with 1 raid night haha.

we do free loot here. so no raid council or anything.

[wispy crystal]

omg warriors are so high lol

[wheat sentinel]

isn't that only because of the amp during execute

[short radish]

probably but also sub ST is dog tier

[wispy crystal]

i wouldnt mind choosing the lesser shit spec if it makes me feel a little better though LOL

[wheat sentinel]

true

isn't sub like the lowest pure st sim in the game

[short radish]

same as frac

[wispy crystal]

i just dont understand how Sub does so well in M+

[short radish]

because we don't lose much ST to do aoe

and vice versa

[wheat sentinel]

because they get blade flurry

[short radish]

eg ret paladin loses 20% ST to do aoe

we lose like

3%

or 2

[wheat sentinel]

Sub has a better blade flurry than outlaw.

it's actually sad.

[wispy crystal]

rogue ST buffs please 🙁

[wheat sentinel]

instructions unclear, buffed hunter again

[short radish]

yeah survival is next in line for buffs

[wheat sentinel]

gotta buff ret, they can't beat hunters in raid fights

shut the discord down

[wispy crystal]

the one raid tier i decide to come back for and push.

they make sub ST dogwater

how was sub last raid tier though?

[wheat sentinel]

I was a lock so idk

[wispy crystal]

just curious overall in TWW, how has rogues been overall on ST ?

[wheat sentinel]

I'm just hoping these idiots don't fuck our class up in midnight at this point.

[short radish]

why would you leave warlock for rogue

thats crazy

[wheat sentinel]

Boredom.

[short radish]

good at the start then its all downhill after w2

[wheat sentinel]

the demo changes basically removed all skill expression.

and the bar was already low, I might as well play bm at that point, not great.

[wispy crystal]

week 2? for real?

[short radish]

yeah

well at least it was week 2 this season

last season it was week -1

[wheat sentinel]

I know the meme is to mock scaling questions

but rogue scaling seems really fucking bad dude

[short radish]

well last season we went into the patch with our BiS trinket already equipped

and for some reason blizzard didnt understand that

[wheat sentinel]

I'm told by friends at blizzard that the balance team is very ivory towerish

[short radish]

i mean taht being said, sub was brought to the last 2 fights

so we should be grateful or something

[plain zephyr]

!backstab

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[short radish]

we're so strong that they brought one of us

and liek 3 arcane mages

[plain zephyr]

How bad is it to not use Backstab when entering Stealth?

[short radish]

[short radish]

like 0.5-1% or something

its not the end of the world

[wheat sentinel]

It had better dps than arcane on the world first kill, therefore it's fine - some blizzard moron

[plain zephyr]

Ah sweet. Thank you

[wheat sentinel]

I prefer sin over sub though. Curious what sub one tricks would really like changed with the spec.

[chrome palm]

Well sub is essentially strong because it pads well

Other classes killing your pad now

[short radish]

damage tuning

and minor bug fixes/QoL

this is probably the best sub has felt in ages

[wheat sentinel]

We both know they'd sooner rework things that don't need it than competently tune

[short radish]

rotation wise

[chrome palm]

They need to remove twist the knife from the game

[wheat sentinel]

Remind me what that was

[chrome palm]

Overlapping envenom

[wheat sentinel]

Oh

Perhaps, but before that they should probably fix our 20+% dps loss bugs

[chrome palm]

Would be cool

[bleak night]

kinda based

ttk makes any type of playing around envenom uptime pointless

[chrome palm]

Yep

[wheat sentinel]

if they touched improved garrote+IC we riot tho

[wispy crystal]

Oct 21st, we should be able to buy the raid trinkets with the coins currency right?

cartel coins last season or something

[jagged coyote]

What are people using for nameplates in M+ that is a recommendation?

[dusk stone]

Were competitive with dks and bm hunters in keys, that enough for me

And we outlive both of them, at least in my experience

I legit get mad when i see people take as much damage as they do in priory

[hazy breach]

Yes, but presumably its the same as last season so you can only buy 1 on the release week and then its 3 more weeks until you get to buy something else

[wispy crystal]

got it. well im buying mythic netherprism for sure!

[hazy breach]

Well you cant buying mythic netherprism unless youve killed mythic fract

[wispy crystal]

agreed. the BM hunter in my key dies a shit ton. and meanwhile im immortal

[wispy crystal]

oh damn. maybe mythic astral antenna or forge then. if my guild can kill forge next week

[hazy breach]

For the mythic look you need to have killed the respecitve bosses to unlock their loot from the chip vendor

[dusk stone]

Its not just bm. I see soooo many dks die its not funny. Hell i outlive tanks sometimes and save the pull

[short radish]

how the fuck do DKs die

[wispy crystal]

YESSSSS. EVEN IN MY RAID. the top DPS DKs just tunnel so much they flop over and die randomly

[dusk stone]

Idk they take a lot of damage

When you take like 800k damage overall to begin with and you cant deathstrike rot damage well

I see it a lot in priory, in flood you see the bad ones die to mechanics

[bleak night]

dying on dk is an impressive accomplishment

bm much more understandable

[dusk stone]

People keep saying that but ive got like 3 key levels to go

And it keeps happening

They dont mitigate damage well is what i see a lot

[bleak night]

regardless of key level one thing never changes

a pug is a pug

[dusk stone]

Meanwhile im sitting at 40% of their damage taken and healing half of that

[shrewd lantern]

none are 20

[wheat sentinel]

Pretty sure singular focus by itself is 15% on aoe, and you got another one

because caustic isn't feeding into it

[shrewd lantern]

...pretty sure whispyr said its like 2-3%

[gleaming plank]

Do we have any minimum haste requirement

[short radish]

no

we want negative haste

[shrewd lantern]

i remember when this was possible

in df with the thorn boots

[short radish]

good times

[wheat sentinel]

the video whispr made explicitly said it was like 15-20%

on aoe.

[shrewd lantern]

timestamp it

[teal coral]

do not drag me into your delusions please

if singular focus was -15% on its own, that would mean it would be doing more damage than CT and Caustic combined

which doesn't even remotely make sense

[short radish]

[lucid jackal]

5 barbilloon dps

[short radish]

can i drag you into my delusions?

[jade oasis]

in aoe in dance do i still build with shuriken

or with shadow strike

[lucid jackal]

Strike

[jade oasis]

kk

[tepid trellis]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[jade oasis]

ty was just making sure

so only for coup

[tepid trellis]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[jade oasis]

is there any time where using bp is better than evis when there’s a prio target in the pull?

like shards in hoa

i only evis there

[tepid trellis]

Well it Will always be less prio dmg to evis

Bp srry

[jade oasis]

sooooo

when do i bp

[tepid trellis]

For overall dmg in 4 or more

Simple as

[jade oasis]

kk

[wheat sentinel]

I remembered wrong, it was 10%, but lol https://youtu.be/Sy3vDx7jKD0?si=5JL8KDDGXvOc5UYE&t=1068

and it wasn't just focus, but still. I knew it was focus + something else, and forgot what that other thing was.

[shrewd lantern]

where is he saying 10% overall loss

oh we're counting the unintended doubledip

[teal prawn]

its combined with a bug fix of an unintended interaction, in raid tho

[minor spruce]

How do i fix the downtime in sub with out CDS?

my dps drops significant ly

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[wheat sentinel]

It's less bad in keys but it really just depends on a lot of stuff.

[chrome palm]

you can eat chips, drink coffee, etc

[fleet acorn]

U can be active and try dodge mechanics and be lowest on dmg received

[short radish]

i take my hands off the keyboard and give them a stretch

[minor spruce]

Damn LOL

[wheat sentinel]

I do kinda wish the filler dps was...more than nothing?

[short radish]

why

[wheat sentinel]

Arcane without burst is still doing something, idk.

[short radish]

eh

i like my downtime

having lower valleys

means enjoying higher peaks

[fringe lava]

wait so why do we want autumn for saladbar mythic, and when do we want it

[short radish]

we want the first one

so it lines up with the platform and then amp damage better

otherwise it comes up like 6-7 seconds later

which can be a bit janky to play around with

but not the end of the world

[fringe lava]

ah ok i see

oh you were the one i talked to about the no knockback strat on m forge

[short radish]

was i?

that doesnt sound like me

[fringe lava]

you said something about a certain waffle

[short radish]

oh

oh that convo

[jagged perch]

when i play sub in raid i get the sudden urge to kiss boys but in a good way

is that normal

[ripe flame]

yes

[silk isle]

In M+ should we only ever start saving 2SoD/SD for big burst periods? or can we full send on 1:1 (feels bad holding SoD/SD Sec Techs on big pulls before boss just to pool CD's)

[tepid trellis]

Can send as much as you want as Long as you have 2x Dance + 2x sod during your blades

[jagged perch]

ok ty just making sure

[ripe flame]

[random comet]

as the sub i'd expect you want the boys to kiss you

but these are just details

[wispy crystal]

I'm just curious.

On pure ST, if I just Shadowstrike instead of backstab.

How big of a difference is sacrificing the backstab / 1x danse macabre stack?

Because with Shadowstrike we can apply find weakness right away

[chrome fern]

they say like 0.5-1%

[wispy crystal]

With backstab, yes we get a danse stack. However it may not apply Find Weakness

[wispy crystal]

Supposing 1% of 5M overall damage, that's around 50k

[plush roost]

If you dont have fw up and no vanish and cant hit them from behind it is correct to strike instead

[chrome fern]

i'm just a bozo who doesn't press it, good enough for oranges on H

[plush roost]

Yeah it is just 1%

[short radish]

yeah

not doing backstab instead of shadowstrike won't be the reason you got a green parse

even not doing the coup thing as well

[wispy crystal]

Working on it😭.

The grey parse on Mythic Loomithar hurt my soul.

Can only get better 😉

[short radish]

jia you

whenever in doubt

just copy lorrgs

[stone patrol]

how important it is to apply FW to all targets in M+ before start blades etc.. ?

[tepid trellis]

Not something you really have to Think too much about. It naturally happens when you are playing correctly

[stone patrol]

hmm i try to find out where i fuck up in keys

[stone patrol]

while SD we use ST to get cbs but in this windows we do not apply any stack

[tepid trellis]

What

[stone patrol]

during dances we dont use shuriken storm in m# right? exception with coup procc

[tepid trellis]

Correct. You only do it outside of dances

[wispy crystal]

Yeah I just refer to lorrgs to have a better understanding these days now 💪🏻

[feral radish]

maybe its been asked before but how does secret technique work 😄

[alpine wraith]

you hit and the phys hit happens

then 1 sec then 1.3 secs later copies hit

and dynamic buffs things you gain or lose affect the 2 hits up to 0.33 secs before the hit happens

from server ticks

[feral radish]

so i dont have to press something else in a specific order I just hit the max combo points sec tech and it does it dmg

[alpine wraith]

you want to supercharge it

so using SoD before ar at least 1 finisher before it

and also be in dance with at least 1.3 secs left

[novel marlin]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[feral radish]

and what about range do the mobs have to be near the shadows

[brisk thunder]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[limpid sage]

It’s 8yds around the target you used sectec on iirc

[feral radish]

thank you for the info

[peak pendant]

im a lil confused about the rotation, every guide says to use 2 shadow dances, and 2 symbols of death during my opener, but then the guide only has one of each being used in the opener? when exactly do i use the second one?

[native zodiac]

You use your 2nd dance as soon as your first dance is over

2nd symbols you can use when your ST is off cd or has 10secs left

Just make sure when you use the 2nd symbols one of your next 2 finisher is a ST

[peak pendant]

oki, thankyou

[versed swift]

What's the dmg trade offs of evis vs bp in aoe? Example like first pull in flood, how much overall do you lose using evis instead of bp? How much prio dmg do you gain?

[short radish]

about 10% either way

[mighty citrus]

team what shadowstep macro do you use for dimensius myth to step your fellow dks? or do you just use mouseover?

[obtuse shard]

/focus your dk name

[native zodiac]

@focus is the best usually

[mighty citrus]

i see i see

[short radish]

i do
#showtooltip
/cast Shadowstep [target=dk]

because i dont like using focus for some reason

[dry plank]

With focus in case he dies you could switch dk and still work but with direct name you have troubles

[short radish]

yeah but im stupid

[keen dome]

same

[short radish]

if that happens i just rightclick on their raid frame

[native zodiac]

Also helps with p2 on pargoth i just swap my focus on the dh to get over easier

[short radish]

stop making valid and reasonable points

[native zodiac]

[limpid sage]

8T 5min

10T 5min

[cursive island]

Hey guy's, just started progressing on Nexus MM.
Can i cloak the spirits ?

Have issues seing the 3 spirits D:

[dry plank]

Also using cell add on you could take few stable dk/dh and put them in good place to easy mouse over step

Even no focus needed

[short radish]

use inky black potion

[short radish]

wait thats kinda good

too bad i use vuhdo

[cursive island]

I do, i clearly see first one, third one, but the 2nd miss it 60% on the time

[short radish]

just stop dps

[cursive island]

Eaven if i focus and stop dps a this moment lol

[short radish]

look at the first and aim straight away

then you can look at the 2nd

remember that one

then 3rd is just elimination

dw i also struggled remembering which order

[limpid sage]

the spirits aren't as tight as kyveza right?

[short radish]

nowhere near as tight as ??

as long as you are aiming in its general vicinity

its okay

still align the line though

[limpid sage]

ye ok that's what I felt as well

[short radish]

but you can be one spirit off

and its still okay

[limpid sage]

was just unsure if I accidentally got hit or it just is that forgiving

[cursive island]

Ty for advices, guess need some practice

[short radish]

have you done kyveza ??

[cursive island]

Yup

[short radish]

if youve done that, you should be okay

its just same same

[cursive island]

There is a big cloudy animation going out of my character for the first one

But not second right ?

[short radish]

should be animation for all of them

[limpid sage]

inky black sounds like a good idea actually

[tall girder]

should i use inky black on soul hunters

[short radish]

i dont like using it because in intermission it makes shit harder to see

[karmic harbor]

finally reached the 5m sim

[vale pine]

nice

[short radish]

gzgz

[limpid sage]

I tried it on soul hunters and it didn't mix well imo

[woeful barn]

Depressed learning remix will not have Legions iteration of sub.

At least it’s fun on live

[mighty citrus]

for nexus and dimensius many people use double on use. i only have prism, lily and signet hc. sigil passive on mythic. do i need to sim anything special for those fights to see if it would be better? currently did patchwork 7m but this does not really reflect these fights ofc

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rEfFQbdQpiPUGyBH8itcPB

[frail path]

Late reply, but yes, so far this season. I expect it to get better with time and the % buffs 🤞

[karmic harbor]

haven't seen anyone mention any sim strats, hc lily is kinda cooked i'd probably play sigil

[mighty citrus]

ah just wanted to find out what to use

normal sim just says lily hc shit

[frosty surge]

Is it wrong then to have symbols and dance macro'd together? I guess I should be using a separate macro for dance with cd's and dance outside?

[karmic harbor]

dance and symbols shouldnt be macrod together unless you have a seperate keybind for them

[frosty surge]

Then I am very confused why that seems to be one of the recommended macro's when I check YT guides alongside the written ones

[native zodiac]

You dont want to macro dance and symbols

Especially in raid it will mess up a lot in the opener

[finite sequoia]

its convenient but a dps loss, and most want convenience over optimization

[frosty surge]

All right, thanks.

i'm learning sub for M+ as I'm always trailing behind on outlaw

thanks for the advice

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

you can use these macros

for trinkets however

[limpid sage]

most yt guides are made by people that don't know what they're talking about

[vale pine]

i recommend using seperate binds if ou play double on use

[frosty surge]

all right, thanks!

[remote shuttle]

Also you can macro forge use and After It prism use with blades and keep a single Button for prism, in case both are ready but you want to use prism instead of forge (to always use prism when at full or close to full stacks)

If u don't find urself in a waiting time of 30s sitting on CDS, u Will Just use the macro 90% of times

[vale pine]

can probably do some macro shananigans

[remote shuttle]

(except when u wait something specific to send prism, like ad phase or amp on boss)

[remote shuttle]

I've been working on some macro fitting my playstile

Also i have a stealth macro (out of combat) which also send naked sectec (if in combat) and sod cb and sectec (if in combat and in dance stance)

With the !stealth to not break stealth when i spam It in m+ to restealth asap as combat ends and wo breaking stealth

[velvet hawk]

Hey guys, we always want to have 1 dance before we send sod and st right?

And always 2 dance and 2sod with cd?

[warm marlin]

It’s not a simmable question. You play 2x on use so you can have big stat for repeated cooldown windows. On nexus it lets you 18 stack the burn while still having forge for add platform, on dimmy you can prism plat1/forge plat2/prism the burn. But if you don’t need more add damage on nexus (we didn’t on my kill) you can skip 2x on use and just big stack the burn with a passive trinket and raw dog the adds. Dimmy same thing if you don’t need more pargoth damage

[tepid trellis]

cant wait to 18 stack the platform

maximun pad

0 brain

[warm marlin]

can’t wait to hold my 1:30 flag for 2:45

[minor sorrel]

Any Tipps for m+ regarding how many Rupturs we spread after Flag?

[vale pine]

[vale pine]

its dynamic, you typically spread rupture before going into a pack

or after cooldowns

[scarlet mulch]

Question about TFD on raid fights, do you vanish and wait 6 secs for it, or just pretty much have it at the start and dont worry about it again after that

[hazy breach]

You cant do that

Tfd only works when you leave combat, vanish doesnt drop combat in boss fights

[scarlet mulch]

Ah

So it would just be for the opener then?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[weak hamlet]

Is maghar orc that insane? I love the survivability on dwarf but lowkey being tempted 👀… on bloodmallet seems underwhelming

[dreamy badger]

#tc-research message
Just sim it

[vestal escarp]

Woke up this morning thinking about deathstalker

[dreamy badger]

Drenched in sweat?

[north schooner]

They deleted trickster while you were asleep

[limpid sage]

dwarf is the closest contender, so not really

it's like 20k dps diff?

[tropic parrot]

re: sub rotation/apl - I can see some top logs in their opener are sending a shuriken storm between eviscerates (more of them than not), what's the reason for that, I think it has something to do with preserving unseen blade? the apl doesn't seem to do it in my sims

from gramhehe's vid (most people are doing this) [same point in the rotation]

im an assa 1 trick forced to play sub on the last 2 mythic and still struggling to get my head around certain things 😅

[clever cradle]

that's not between normal evis, that is between coup, aka

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

^ 2 + explenation

[tropic parrot]

is it a big dps increase? the cognitive load is killing me

😂

thanks btw

im doing number 1, wasn't aware of number 2

[vale pine]

somewhere betwee 1-1.5% dps

[solemn creek]

If ur new. Focus on the basic

U can do that when ur more confy

[clever cradle]

either that, or make a weakaura that will just alert you when to storm instead of strike

[solemn creek]

Losing gcd during dance because ur hesitating will result in a lot more dps loss

Id say... Practice on dummy

The flow is mostly during dance anyways. U should catch up fast

[tropic parrot]

interesting, thanks guys

[west socket]

I made a weakaura reminder until i got used to it then turned it off

[tropic parrot]

still got it?

[west socket]

Sure it might not be what you like but you can try it, ill DM you

[queen plinth]

i just want to cry man

[short radish]

it's okay to cry

[queen plinth]

is it worth to vanish after flag rupture to put another evis in before going into the burst?

[queen plinth]

well yea , im just tired of wow. im missing 3 16s and i just dont get invits

[short radish]

just wait for turbo boost tbh

people will play the game again then

[wild vine]

Its not like there arent enough players, some people just struggle to get invited, because there are too many even

[keen dome]

Leeeeeeemix

[queen plinth]

i jsut dont know what to do, i dont get invites and im not the reason we are bricking keys

waiting 2 hours for an invite and the key always gets depleted

[short radish]

yeah but

its still a bit deadger atm

[wild vine]

Its just how it is, because there are higher rio people queuing

[short radish]

• its also end of week

so hardly anyone queueing

[keen dome]

Ye, a week away from turbo and Lemix. Game is chill. End of reset, too.

The best thing to do is network and try to find people to pug keys with.

[wild vine]

Idk I made a group the other day for my resi and a shitton of people queue up

There just arent enough keys for the amount of people

[short radish]

yeah there are still people running keys

but if you are going to compare now

vs keys in 2-3 weeks

its definitely deader now

[queen plinth]

well yea queues are filled all the way if u open the key

and then there is like 1 rogue in queue which is me

but 200 fdks

and hdhs

wow is a dead gasme

gonna play fellowship on 16.10 and be happy not playing such a garbage game design like wow is

bring queue to m+ and just make requirements for certain key lvls

like 16s if u have every 15 done

[wheat elk]

been queing for 18s for days now, some times i ask them what is it that you need ? and they reply "anything but rogues"

[limpid sage]

I really wish they'd just make soloqueue for m+

[queen plinth]

yea literally, just delete fkn keystones and make it a queue

[limpid sage]

I wouldn't say delete them

[queen plinth]

and be able to go into next key lvl the moment u have timed like 2 or 3 of previous

[zenith magnet]

half maybe

but ye

[queen plinth]

yea kinda, only in highkeys tho. that desing in 5s would be horrible

[wheat elk]

what is the point of playing the spec you like if you are not welcome in high keys=/

[limpid sage]

if you could queue for a range for each keystone that'd be awesome

[zenith magnet]

the whole que is anoying due to the community beeing annoying. I mean they inv arcan mage cause they are "meta" and then flame them for their lower aoe compared to dk. kekw

they understand nothing

[queen plinth]

+1

but arcane mages have good overall

even we do prio as fuck

[zenith magnet]

outlaw has better overall - meanwhile we are not meta

xD

[queen plinth]

it really looks like i have to switch back to my main and push there

or just boykott m+ and do 10s onkly

[limpid sage]

I haven't seen a single good arcane mage legit

they always do 3 mil below 2nd dps xd

[queen plinth]

cause there is too many rerolling fucks the moment arcane is meta

[zenith magnet]

I puged to 3500 rio last season - and at that point the people didnt got better still - just more mental and less kicks - no joke.

[queen plinth]

depending on dungeon and pulls its normal

[zenith magnet]

can aswell ignore m+ if you dont have fixed team

[wild vine]

They might do a queue type thing, but the last time they asked about what people think of some ideas it was like a side-system. I personally wouldnt want it to be a queue solely.
I do like the idea of having a key and you can just choose your dungeon tho

[short radish]

having to prog 2->3->4->5

etc

sounds absolutely horrible

[queen plinth]

this + make resi not 15 when u have everythign on 15 make it 16 so you can keep on trying to time a higher key

[limpid sage]

ye I want a side-system - not a complete overhaul of the current system

[zenith magnet]

yeah you shoud be able to somewhat choose dungeon - its anoying af to replay things you did allready

[keen dome]

With a queue, and without fundamental redesign of multiple systems to support it, you'd just have a group form and people'd go "oh a rogue. rip key" and leave.

it doesn't solve anything for push keys without fundamental design changes

[short radish]

not with our new abandon key system 🙂

[limpid sage]

well if you would +++ it you'd jump to 5 immediately

[keen dome]

Well, ye. But like people'd just stand around for 5 minutes and abandon.

You'd also have to make sure the queue included enough kicks, stops, heroism, cr, etc.

[limpid sage]

could easily implement a afk detection system

an*

[zenith magnet]

for me it also is only a time waster - instead of someone leaving - nobody leaves but it dosnt change the result - it just takes longer.

[keen dome]

Why not just solve the underling issues though

[limpid sage]

because the underlying issue is cultural

[short radish]

which underlying issue

there are multiple

[zenith magnet]

humans = monkeys without reflexes

[short radish]

[keen dome]

Stops, kicks, dungeon design, balance, heroism, cr's, etc.

[north schooner]

Replace humans with AI

[keen dome]

Solo queue is a good idea but I think it could only ever work for weekly keys, and as soon as you go higher it's gonna be insufferable and unworkable.

[tribal blade]

they need to fix this, it's still hard to get into groups even though rogue is blasting atm

[keen dome]

ye

[short radish]

the rogue stigma is too big

[queen plinth]

why do we not get invites then if we currently good

i dont get it

[short radish]

and in high keys, surely people dont acutally rely on tier lists

[short radish]

because we're good damage sure

[tribal blade]

when i timed 18 DB the havoc after the key was over whispered me saying he vouched to bring me over a dk

[short radish]

but so is 8 other specs

[keen dome]

Like, giving every tank a lust would be a good solution to one of the issues. Because then every group has lust and it's solved. And then they need to make sure every class has a kick by default (I.e., Boomkin solar is fine) or something similar.

[short radish]

and those 8 other specs have 600% more utility than us

[tribal blade]

sucks

[limpid sage]

ye + sub rogue is basically melee arcane mage

most of them are bad

[wheat elk]

every fucking day XD

[short radish]

man thats acutally the best feeling

[zenith magnet]

worst part of all, dispells - which result in some healers getting no invs in certain keys - and that is actually for a legit reason also. A

In m+ the group utility like CR and BL shoud be able to completly replaced by items. Both are very worse versions right now.
All dispells shoud dispell everything (atleast for healers).
You need seperate aura tuning like for pvp for each spec.
Every RP needs to be removed from m+ to fix pacing.

[tribal blade]

we bring basically nothing besides dmg

[wheat elk]

sometimes it will be about 6 7 hours and not a single invite

[tribal blade]

haha yeah, even better that i dunked on the other 2

he was gushing over my boss dam

[keen dome]

ye, I def agree with dispels being another issue. Items are a good stopgap but it doesn't resolve the underlying design problems that blizz COULD fix.

[short radish]

surely at that point you run your own key

[queen plinth]

MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN I DONT WANT TO PUSH ON AMGE

ITS SO BORIGN

[short radish]

make scrolls a thing again

[lucid jackal]

LOLLL

[short radish]

make drums not garbage

[tribal blade]

it's not boring when you get insta invites and go far

[keen dome]

There should be parity between melee / ranged for kicks. There's really no excuse for some classes not having a kick / having to talent into it, etc.

[keen dome]

Big agree

[wheat elk]

i do, but then in my 18, there will be a dk that will fuck the key up, and he will be in his next key within minutes

[keen dome]

Although I personally think giving every tank a lust achieves a better result than it being a consumable

[wheat elk]

and ill be in q again

its a lose-lose situation

[short radish]

then you gotta push it up again

idk

[limpid sage]

that's actually a good idea

[short radish]

i get where youre coming from

[zenith magnet]

this is not true. The poisons are very strong still - its still the best single stops in the game - we probably have one of the best defenses for any spec - and we have tricks, distract and shroud. Very underused is the alterantive for tricks which is blackjack which is imo hella broken.

[short radish]

but its also like

[runic trail]

Make my old drums work again while they're at it https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/842155709269147658/1402762179387588648/image.png?ex=68db9fd5&is=68da4e55&hm=ba6e52ff1414943097e8e943f36ef143bf77aa59e7cb1ca7368617140769708c&

[short radish]

"i dont want to brick my key" is a shit take

[queen plinth]

just got instant invite as mage btw

[keen dome]

It means every group has lust and the person who is most likely to know the best tming for it can push it.

And it helps for raiding too

[tribal blade]

correction, we don't bring anything people actaully care about

[wheat elk]

and people have learnt something about "note" and "tip" and now you gotta pay for a key

like tf

[lucid jackal]

Just make shroud op again. Stop giving every shit mob you want to skip truesight

[keen dome]

Just report those, tbh

[keen dome]

100%

[short radish]

i blame reddit for everyone malding about invis skips

fuck i hate reddit

[keen dome]

I'd like to see less kicks needed in dungeons, and less stops. But the actual casts and shit be a lot more impactful.

[wheat elk]

every mage below 3.8 3.9 dont have alter time binded and are geniunly ass at the game

[zenith magnet]

See - my whole point. people issue

[wheat elk]

but they get the invite within seconds

[tribal blade]

sure, but they're the people gatekeeping the keys

so it's very important

[keen dome]

Remember to include half a joke in your apply note to keys so they gotta invite you for the punchline

[short radish]

and also i really dont think you can seriously compare rogue "utility" to half the specs in the game

[tribal blade]

fact is rogue still doesn't bring anything people value besides dmg

i have never heard anyone ever go "nice, now we have atrophic"

[swift coral]

How can I sim netherprism with 18 stacks? 😮

[short radish]

having utility that stops 100% of damage is better than utility that reduces damage slightly

[queen plinth]

watch me be resi 16 in 2 days 🙂

as aracne

[limpid sage]

how much is shiv enhanced numbing poison?

[keen dome]

I return to my suggestion of smoke bomb as a utility. Choice node between an AoE LoS smoke bomb for 5s or a Darkness-style AoE defensive button.

[lucid jackal]

Rogue has a lot of utility in its stuns, it's just not been valuable in dungeons for awhile

[short radish]

yeah that'd also be good

smoke bomb would be amazing util for m+

and unique

man imagine that

having viable unique util

[runic trail]

It'd also be good for raids. Fuck yo grips

[tribal blade]

very true, and also the fact that aoe stops are more meaningful in general

[keen dome]

And if you had the choice, it'd be really good for raiding too.

[lucid jackal]

Like in bfa having gouge + bte stun was insane, but now st stops and cc's in general are just not as useful as they used to be

[runic trail]

No dks needed

[keen dome]

It'd just be a strong niche for us.

[wheat elk]

we got replaced by vengeance havoc we got somewhat a similar damage output

but Chaos nova is a big factor

[limpid sage]

I feel like 8 second kidney is hella underrated as well

[wheat elk]

and rightfuly so

that ability is op

[lucid jackal]

I think there should just be more utility poisons in general

[tribal blade]

8 second kidney is so good in ara

[short radish]

yeah good luck getting 8sec kidney though

when all the mobs are triple DR'd

[lucid jackal]

Maybe let all specs equip 2 non lethal poisons

[runic trail]

Maybe give blind a duration in pve content? Like, its just 2 seconds, irrespective of damage

[limpid sage]

using it on a caster pre send is amazing

[lucid jackal]

Crippling is so nice in some dungeons

[tribal blade]

FUCKING THIS

holy shit

[keen dome]

That'd be really neat.

Def agreed with letting all specs use 2 non-lethals.

[wheat elk]

we have nothing remotely close to chaos nova tho

[keen dome]

Being able to hot swap them as needed is also really nice

[limpid sage]

prot warr using shockwave just before you send it

[tribal blade]

"and now i line up my sexy kidney on this mob, BAM and it's immune gg"

[short radish]

idk 8 second stun is kinda pointless when you just stun all the mobs anyway

so theyre all on the same cast/stun timer

like the one mob you stun for 8 seconds

the other mobs around it will also be cc'd

for 8 seconds

except now its maybe not in the group

because youve stunned it in africa

[tribal blade]

the funniest part is you could kidney right on pull to get max value, which sub can do, but sin cannot

[wheat elk]

after all this time rogue aint got a aoe stop ( blind is ass )

[queen plinth]

make a aoe posion which kicks every 8 seconds or so

or 12

idc

[keen dome]

Less casts, but more impactful. More utility to rogue in AoE LoS / defensive. More poision utility (Stuns, slows, cast reductions, etc).

Let us be a cool utility knife

[wheat elk]

literally make the cd of blind 45seconds and make it a aoe stun for like 1 second

[limpid sage]

old blood elf racial on 8 sec cd doesn't sound broken at all xd

[short radish]

the other thing as well is, we can discuss all of this until the last titan drops but it's not going to matter unless blizzard acutally put some real dev time into rogue

blizzard can give us util, they just can't be fucked

[keen dome]

ye

[lucid jackal]

I think aoe blind is good, not every spec needs an aoe stun.

[keen dome]

I'm gonna submit my smoke bomb as an idea someday

[wheat elk]

but 1 minute cd?

[lucid jackal]

I don't think the solution to wow balance is just homogenization

[keen dome]

AoE blind is cool and I like the choice node on it. It's a good approach to it albeit I don't think there's any situation you'd not use the AoE variant?

[short radish]

i disagree. so many classes now have aoe stun that those who don't have one are suffering

[lucid jackal]

Blinding light is a 2 min cd innit

[lucid jackal]

Isn't hunter meta rn?

Isn't dk meta rn?

[tribal blade]

aoe blind has extra utility which we don't get to utilize very often, which is CCing mobs mid combat that need to be kited/left out of the fight

[lucid jackal]

Does dk have an aoe stun rn I forget

[short radish]

not stun

same as blind?

[wheat elk]

aoe stun is just 1 small thing

[lucid jackal]

Lol

[short radish]

except it affects everything

[wheat elk]

you look at mage and dk

[short radish]

and they can also grip

[lucid jackal]

The two meta key specs don't have aoe stuns

[wheat elk]

thhey have everything

[tribal blade]

ST stun

[lucid jackal]

Mage doesn't either

[short radish]

yes it does

gravity lapse

[lucid jackal]

Wtf

[short radish]

🙂

[tribal blade]

dk has grips, sleet and ST stun iirc

[short radish]

[keen dome]

AoE Blind is such an incredibly good button though. One of the best improvements we got for utility.

It's just.. more, plz

[short radish]

yeah DK has everything we have that's important except more

[lucid jackal]

I have never SEEN A mage use this

Is this a talent

[north schooner]

Blinding light is like 75s talented 90s baseline

[tribal blade]

wtf is that

[short radish]

yes

[wheat elk]

mages has SUPERNOVA aswell

tf

[keen dome]

I have never seen that talent before, geez

[slate marlin]

Doesnt hunter have 2 aoe stops tho? The knockup and idr the other one

[lucid jackal]

Is it a choice node

[keen dome]

That's a cool one

[tribal blade]

i think explosive shot

binding

traps

[slate marlin]

explosibe is dmg tho

[tribal blade]

one of their fire things does a knockback

[slate marlin]

they have binding, knockup but theres 1 more im sure

The knockback ye

they got 2

[limpid sage]

me neither wtf

[wheat elk]

yeah supernova

[keen dome]

I wish AoE blind worked on the dumb Xal orbs. But that's less of an issue 'cos it doesn't matter at 12 or above which is where the utility really matters.

[limpid sage]

fake news

doesn't exist

[short radish]

you probably dont notice it amongst the 50 other ccs that mages are casting

[short radish]

this is the problem with aoe blind as well

it doesnt affect so many things

[keen dome]

yeah

[tribal blade]

yeah mages are cc/defensive machines

they have EVERYTHING

[slate marlin]

blinds arent affected by cc dr iirc

[runic trail]

Mages have pretty much everything , yeah

[limpid sage]

they need it

[short radish]

yeah blizzard forgot they didnt have aoe stun until this expansion

[slate marlin]

which is good

[short radish]

so they added it

[keen dome]

I mean, it goes back to needing a change in design. Less is more so less reliance on needing stuns / cc / stops / interrupts but when they are needed it being more impactful

[short radish]

[slate marlin]

But feels like a lot of rogue utility budget is in shroud, and they actively try to make it useless (and so u need meld/ms rather than just shroud)

[keen dome]

I like the combo of AoE Blind + Blackjack too

[slate marlin]

which is also stupid

[short radish]

mindsooth is just better shroud

because it acutally works

[keen dome]

It really is

[tepid trellis]

1.5

[slate marlin]

if u give truesight to avoid shroud, then why the fuck do you allow meld and mind soothe skips

[tepid trellis]

and 1:15 with the reduction talent

[tribal blade]

it's classic blizz has a design philosophy, they take stuff away, then they change their minds and don't give it back to the specs that originally had it

[short radish]

that'd require dev time to make them not work

and im sticking with my conspiracy theory that the current blizz devs all were ganked by rogues in classic

and are still salty to this day

i will continue to spread this misinformation

no one can stop me

[keen dome]

Haha

[raw rover]

hey guys noob question: I'm currently learning more Sub and I have a spot in the rotation where i feel like im doing something wrong. After opener; after we use everything we have; We use the next 5th Symbols solo to ST. What do we do with the next set of Symbols and Dance? Do we throw it out 1 Symbols 1 Dance and then stack cds for SB Flag opener again? or do we hold for SB Flag?

[slate marlin]

Also u cant compare pala blind to rogue blind, palas have dispels and external and br

[lucid jackal]

They do

[short radish]

and bettr atro

[lucid jackal]

U just can't target the orbs

[keen dome]

Only if you cast off a mob.

[lucid jackal]

Atro is better than Dev aura

[short radish]

you generally send 1/2 dances between flags

[short radish]

dev affects everything

[slate marlin]

atro doesnt work on enviromental dmg no?

[tepid trellis]

they are about the same (if its from hpal)

[slate marlin]

Dev does

[raw rover]

but there's a point where you either have to sit on SB waiting for a Dance or Sit on 2x Dances waiting for SB right?

or am i doing it wrong

[limpid sage]

which dungeons would you guys say atro is better than numbing

[slate marlin]

I like atro in general

[lucid jackal]

Atro is also better when it works which is in 99% of cases, everything

[short radish]

feels less than 99%

espeically since it can drop off

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[slate marlin]

Anyway we should wait until thursdays alpha changes, it would be criminal to ignore rogue on them

[short radish]

!dr

[tepid trellis]

dimmy

so not always

aura mastery incrases dev aura quite alot if the dmg comes in chunks

[short radish]

we're not shuriken storming that much to have 100% up time on every single mob in m+

granted theres also 30 yd range on pal

but hpal is in melee

so unless its an mm hunter playing at max range on the complete other side

[tepid trellis]

this is wild tho

[short radish]

theyre in range

[tepid trellis]

350m dmg reduction

[short radish]

woooooooo druids

[tepid trellis]

not counting the dmg incrase

as well

[limpid sage]

give atro 3.6% dmg increase

:(

[tepid trellis]

they dont actually need to really play in melee anymore

[slate marlin]

Almost like its the best raid buff in the game

[tepid trellis]

so its kinda w/e

[lucid jackal]

What does that even mean

[slate marlin]

Guy what are your hopes for midnight