subtlety

[twin trench]

so im trying to figure out how to optimize my black powder in keys, i feel like i definitely lean on eviscerate more but i assume people use black powder way more often than me.

should i be shuriken storm and rupture UNTIL i get 4 find weakness's and then sending cds and using BP at that point or am i just rng on when i should use black powder

[azure thicket]

i dont think there's much play around find weakness and shindigg has a guide involving rotten gameplay if that's the case

rupture 3 targets, flag early for max optimization( i don't and just flag 3rd rupture target cause im scared) and start sending cds

[twin trench]

oh so first globals of dance go into shuriken storm so you get a bunch of find weakness applied then technique> strike> evis again?

w. coup for evis, i suppose.

[azure thicket]

most of the aoe damage from sub comes from nimble flurry due to shadowstrike/evis striking 7 additional targets

only time you shuri storm is outside of cds and in between coup casts

[twin trench]

okay so shadowstrike applies the find weakness also?

like i get the general sense of sub, i understand cd timing, holding dance sometimes etc

I'm just trying to figure out when to black powder

[azure thicket]

+4 targets

[twin trench]

i thought it was 4 targets with find weakness

[azure thicket]

nope find weakness isn't played around

[twin trench]

oooh

[short radish]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[twin trench]

okay, that makes it easier now

[short radish]

just do the above

thats all the optimisation you should bother with

[azure thicket]

yeah find weakness is just there hanging out

finding weaknesses

[twin trench]

rogue guide i read before said 4 find weakness

but i have also read this too

[short radish]

i think its like 3

but it also kinda doesnt matter

don't optmise for 1% gain

[twin trench]

okay, that makes it much easier

[short radish]

and lose 10%

because youre concentrating too hard

[azure thicket]

i saw casualaddict using shuriken tornado in a key and also did a wat

[short radish]

fuck shuriken tornado

[twin trench]

well, i saw tornado being used in stuff

[azure thicket]

fuck shuriken torando

[twin trench]

but really something i wanna include tbh

errr

not something i wanna include

xD

[short radish]

then dont

you dont need to

[twin trench]

true

okay, glad there's no special rule and ill use black powder more then :)

[short radish]

honestly even if you dont press black powder

its not the end of the world

[twin trench]

Yeah, i feel like it's pretty similar

i was teaching my friend sub and kinda told him to just not use it in cds and he was doing better

[short radish]

its something like 5-10% more prio and 5-10% more aoe

which is both a lot and not a lot at the same time

[limpid sage]

It’s only like 2.4% loss on 8t actually

[opal hound]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[limpid sage]

nvm it's actually ~1.9% overall loss for ~6% prio dmg

[raw wigeon]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[vale pine]

You can use```yaml
chart_show_relative_difference=1
relative_difference_from_max=1

[limpid sage]

oh thanks!

have you thought about making a theorycrafting guide?

[vale pine]

i have, but i don't think there are that many interessted unless we would create a lot simpler tooling

[limpid sage]

I'm interested 🖐🏼

but yeah it's prob a bit niche

might also be because the learning curve for this stuff is very steep though

[vale pine]

I think TC would be more interessting if there was super simple tooling

but thats also a lot of work to create and maintain

raidbots improved things by a lot

[limpid sage]

I'm currently working on something

[vale pine]

it did not exist when i started doing theorycrafting

But in general, i think the majority of people is rather interessted in results

than in the process

e.g. "what is the bis gear"

[limpid sage]

that's boring imo

[vale pine]

or how strong is funnel/etc

I mean, if i read a paper about a topic, i am most of the time first interessted in the results and to varify its reasonable also in the methology

so results are always a big factor

as mentioned, raidbots is probably the "easy" interface for TC

and it made it possible for a lot more people to take part

even if most usually just sim what gear piece performs best

[violet palm]

Your profile picture is beautiful, fuu

[vale pine]

thanks

[naive acorn]

fuu, u ARE beautiful!

[vale pine]

[violet palm]

And smart

[digital viper]

Fuu is such a departure from the old rogue tcers

[peak jetty]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[alpine wraith]

dont think many people were even playing when the old rogue tcers were there

some of them have armor named after them tho

was a cool thing blizz did once or twice

[drowsy plume]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[rain kernel]

So i have araz at 710, astral at 710 and lily at 710...since ppl are using two on use...i simmed it...and the araz and lily is 1.1% less damage...its telling me to use lily and astral...should I listen to the bot or...should i still be using two on use..?

[short radish]

depends on teh fight

but honestly

just play whatever you want

doesnt really matter

[olive remnant]

hey, does playing the rotten change the playstyle at all in m+?

[keen yew]

psure double on use is only worth it with prism+araz and maybe prism+lily depending on fight

[lilac stag]

Yes. Your SoD usage becomes much more static (and not worth it imo).

SoD-Storm-Dance (continue normal rotation and you have to be damn well sure you have Sectech ready in first two finishers)

With finality you have more freedom with SoD, and SoD is ultimately what we will get resource starved on first

[tepid trellis]

or just ignore the FW spread

and play like normal

same as the sim does

[lilac stag]

Or just ignore rotten and play finality

tbf I think eleem just hasn’t pushed the update yet (I could be wrong). Not sure where all of it landed from TC

[tepid trellis]

he tried to make it do sod into storm before dance but it was hard and its just a big nothing burger

so prolly not added

[lilac stag]

makes sense

[olive remnant]

i see ty

[left quail]

Is there any downside with macroing SoD with sec tech? I get it why you wont macro it with dance, but I kinda dont wanna press 7 keybinds in my burst, wanna simplify things if possible

[supple verge]

Do you guys send flag on big momma on CD to cleave adds or do you try to just send a charge of dance for adds and flag the amp?

Feels like such a waste to send for adds but my experience is they don't die in time if I don't send

[short aurora]

if the adds dont die key is over anyways

and how long do you want to hold your cds

jsut send

[supple verge]

Yep that's where I have landed but I wasn't sure what people were doing

[fallow nimbus]

Hold them for the next dungeon

[dense perch]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[lone halo]

!prekey

[fathom adder]

a little bit early don`t you think

no flag until dungeon #9

everyone knows

[modest spear]

some help with what rings to run pls, do I go with these 2 from the sim?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6LvK6pafmpfp3Qhjt84Kdi

[short radish]

craft a vers/mast 685 ring

if youre going to use a 691 one with haste

[quaint trail]

what u think its my best craft?

[short radish]

whatever the clanker says

(raidbots)

[modest spear]

oh alright ty

[short radish]

well

sim it first

but im gonna guess the 685 vers/mast ring will sim higher

than anything with haste

[modest spear]

so basically haste is a nono

[short radish]

we hate haste as sub

the general rule of ilvl > stats applies

with the exception of haste

[modest spear]

ohh okay

[limpid sage]

Idk I just do it whenever it fits and ignore it else

[plush roost]

⚠️ Warning Signs ⚠️ would like a word with you

[short radish]

BOOOOOOOO HASTE

[plush roost]

Uh

Wrong kmage

But yknow what

It works

To jail with u haste hater

[short radish]

I WANT NEGATIVE HASTE

[plush roost]

We cant

Dumb chest

[short radish]

[plush roost]

Giving us 600 haste

[short radish]

dumb chest

[plush roost]

Grrrr

[short radish]

cant even negative haste with proc from flask + 2 cursed rings

[plush roost]

Where are my slimy expulsive boots

To -300 haste me

[short radish]

trueeeeee

[lilac pendant]

How many damage gain is augment rune?

[plush roost]

Thats my prayer for next tier

[short radish]

like .4 or .6

[plush roost]

Embellishments being weird stat gain/losses to really fine tune

[short radish]

delete embelishments

acutally wait no dont delete them

i need token prices to tank again

[plush roost]

They should make embellishments

Enchants that can only go on tier pieces

Limit 2

[short radish]

hmmmmm

[plush roost]

And now youre choosing embellishment or crafted piece

Slowing gearing and making loot better

[short radish]

but then that kinda gets rid of crafted pieces

because whats the point of them

except for a temporary stop gap

[plush roost]

Does it tho?

[short radish]

i guess nothings wrong wiht that though

[plush roost]

Temp.stop gap, fill in your bad loot spots. Good for alts

I think having no crafted full BiS is a fine end goal

[short radish]

jokes on you, when turbo boost comes out and crests get uncapped

im running like 6 crafted pieces

woooooo loot

[plush roost]

When turbo boost comes out , and in 2 weeks*, youre running 6 crafted

[short radish]

slightly warm take but

i dont hate that the crests are being uncapped a week or 2 later

[plush roost]

Same

[short radish]

i dont want to take a day off

to grind crests

[plush roost]

2 weeks to top up a few pieces and grind the rest out later

[short radish]

yeah

[plush roost]

I actually like turbo boost cause i havent felt like pushing m+ and could just channel all my brain into raid

[native zodiac]

i saved all my crests to convert incase they uncapped it on the 7th

[short radish]

i saved most

[plush roost]

I used my runed cause we overtimed tuesday

[short radish]

weee woooo

[plush roost]

Worth we killed dimmy

Only OTd twice this tier kinda insane

30 minutes on saladbar prog on a thursday

And 1 tuesdau

[short radish]

i wonder if we're going to OT for dimmy next week

[plush roost]

U close?

[short radish]

if we lock in tomorrow

it feels killable in tomorrow + 2 more raid nights

[plush roost]

Yeah biggest hurdles are moving damage off pargoth so you have it for burn and living the 4th and 5th rings

Protip, if youre 2 onuse, move ritual forge from artosian to pargoth and dont trinket artosian

Helped me so much

[short radish]

wait shouldnt you get trinket again for burn

if you trinket artosian?

[plush roost]

Prism? No youll have 13/14 stacks

Cause flight youre not hittinf anything

[short radish]

ah true

[plush roost]

And idk how your artosian is going but we had to perma stop dps on our last few days

So why trinket there

[short radish]

true

true true true

we're close to perma stop

i think if everyones alive

we n eed to stop

kk so

0:00 - Araz
1:45ish - Prism
3:whatever - artorisan - nothing
4:whatever - pargoth - araz
5:whatever - damage amp - prism

[plush roost]

Yep

The forge and 18 prism again in P3 simple as

[short radish]

yeah after burn it just goes back to regular cycling?

[plush roost]

I died 2 seconds before my 18 prism at the end of p3 on kill cause our melee reverse gravity got confused NotLikeThis

Yeah just regular cycle

If u can identify who is quick to cross rings so you can set focus shadowstep them as well

Stepping the third ring is best imo since reverse gravity is right after

[short radish]

hopefully its our DK that im already stepping to

so i dont need to make a new macro

[plush roost]

You dont just have /cast @focus; Shadowstep or w.e the macro is?

[lilac pendant]

I hate soul hunters fight

[short radish]

i mean

i could just focus the DK

and change that focus during the fight

that sounds smart

ive kinda been getting by having mouseover shadowstep for most fights

[plush roost]

Yeah while youre falling is a great 10 second interlude

To do that

[short radish]

well more so, right click on frame to shadowstep

[plush roost]

Yeah i did the same but that fight forced me to be a good player

[short radish]

[plush roost]

And usee actual focus step macro

Which has helped me in m+ for kicks xd

So ty dimmy

[short radish]

tbh

i kinda do have a mouseover focus

that i use in m+

but im also kinda stupid and dont properly look at it

i try and mouseover focus, then mouseover my focus and use mokick

[plush roost]

Lol

I never learned mokick so it came easy to me

"Oh shit i dont need to tab target anymore this is op!" - me 1 season ago

[cold kernel]

i have like 3 keybinds for step that changed my life

[honest meteor]

hey guys , i see in some videos at soul binder boss, a text pops up just use a single dance, use CD , dont use cloak something like that, u guys know where u can find that weakaura?

[short radish]

MRT (addon) + kaze (weakaura)

• lorgs or something

[waxen moth]

Im having hard time learning sub, so shuriken i dont use at all? and black powder only when 4 or more targets ?

[short radish]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[honest meteor]

never heard of lorgs but

will find out

[short radish]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/nexusking-salhadaar?difficulty=heroic

!lorrgs

damn no command for that

[vale pine]

https://www.lorrgs.io/

the website is rly good to see cooldown management from top logs

[honest meteor]

what!!!!! ive been comparing logs second by seconds

[short radish]

ye its pretty good

[wheat sentinel]

I didn't know about lorrgs, huge.

[vale pine]

I started to promote it in s3 DF because cooldown management was very complicated

[onyx mulch]

aoe

[vale pine]

people learning subtlety in DF:

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[wheat sentinel]

Managing exactly wtf I should do between blades is my main pain point r/n, so that's huge.

[vale pine]

think this might give a good top level overview of cooldown management

[lilac stag]

If you’re ignoring it just run finality.

[wispy crystal]

For Forgeweaver Araz, we hold our sTec until the adds spawn right ?

[crystal bone]

https://tenor.com/view/charlie-day-gif-18564553

[wispy crystal]

Same for Soulbinder, always use sTec for the adds ?

[vale pine]

you can pmuch think of it like this

if there is a vulnerability or adds

you likely want to use your cooldowns there

so e.g. if we look at soulbinder

the first use of flgaellation is delayed for the add spawn

but you don't just do nothing up to this point, you use one dance before it

ofc other factors like kill time play into it, if your raid whipes out the first set of adds immidiatly

you might just use flag on pull

but still ideally want to use your cooldowns once you have the bigger add groups later in the fight

[hazy ice]

this season we still using storm as the second builder for find weakness on AoE?

[vale pine]

you can symbols-storm-cooldowns

but it isn't rly a gain

so no, we don't use storm as builder in dance anymore outside of the coup optimizations

[limpid sage]

I do the same xd

[hazy ice]

thx

[inland cliff]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[pure helm]

How much mastery is too much mastery? Cause my boi is sitting at 110%

[vale pine]

as much as simc tells you

[true inlet]

does this macro works as i think , use forge first time then nether second use when forge is on cd?i got forge on 13 and prism on 14

[vale pine]

should use forge first if you use it, but its just one key press away from knowing ^^

[lucid jackal]

itd just do forge prism forge prism yeah

[true inlet]

seems to work correctly , should just have tried myself before asking , sry :p

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[short radish]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[short radish]

Get that macro also

[unborn vault]

what is null?

[astral axle]

nothing

[unborn vault]

https://tenor.com/view/stupidme-whyi-why-you-hurt-gif-26181664

[fathom adder]

does it alternate between forge -> prism when you use them both in the macro, because prism is always "off cd" but forge gets used first when its ready, then prism, then forge etc?

[lucid jackal]

yep

[astral axle]

? it is literally what it is!

[fathom adder]

ty guy

[astral axle]

it is telling the cast sequence macro to cast symbols of death then nothing if the button is pressed again so you don't doubletap symbols

[rapid torrent]

Random question, but is there something (besides cloak) that makes us immune to the root pools in Arakara's last boss? I broke one with kick and tried to get into another one that was further out, but it wouldn't root me. I thought maybe you were immune to the root for a little bit after breaking one, but doesnt seem to be the case according to otheres

[vagrant fulcrum]

you didn't get freedom'd did you?

or spellwarded

[rapid torrent]

I thought that too but pally said they didnt

[vagrant fulcrum]

only other thing I can think of wouldn't make you immune to roots

which is vanish breaking roots

[rapid torrent]

Yeah, it was weird af and has happened to me before but i cant seem to be able to find exactly what causes it

[shrewd lantern]

tea confirmed for stinkers

/s

[latent finch]

They have some internal cd. If you get into a puddle break out and go instant in another one it sometimes doesnt work. sometimes you slide into the suck sometimes you just dong get stuck

[marsh palm]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[waxen matrix]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[waxen matrix]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[chrome sphinx]

Does anyone have a rough idea what % damage sub is phys/magic?

[limpid sage]

Think it was like 80/20 in m+ and 50/50 ST

[chrome sphinx]

80 phys?

[hazy breach]

Its definitely not 80/20

More like 60/40

[chrome sphinx]

Ok cool, ty

[dusk wave]

hey guys is that true that the shaman buff is 7% increase dps?

[rapid torrent]

yeah this was my theory but people were disagreeing, thanks

[inland cliff]

quick newbie question: say i'm in a big pull where i'm just spamming ST/black powders in dance and i trigger coup, do i just hold coup until the end of the dance or send it immediately?

[plush roost]

Always coup when available on a fazed target

Its number 2 prio spender (sec tec 1)

[inland cliff]

k thanks

[wispy crystal]

Will there be a tuning pass coming anytime soon?

[alpine wraith]

very unlikely

[plush glen]

Yeah they’re gonna nerf prism then we’re dead dead

[vale pine]

i don't think they will

most things hint at a focus on the next xpac

[alpine wraith]

i mean if we got around an 8% buff like warrior we would be a in a great spot

we already do quite decent on anything not strict st

just will go down hard over the weeks as pad becomes less needed

and kill times change

so a funny situation like s2 is going to happen around ending of october as turbo boost comes

we will be fighting with aug or losing again on many bosses pog

[mental kettle]

i've been looking at some m+ sub logs

seen quite a few people running rotten

but this goes against pins

[alpine wraith]

yea rotten is fine

in actual m+ performance the builds are not that far behind each other

each one has their strenghts

[torn shell]

We always ST before spending a coup proc right

[lilac stag]

Feels. Maths. Logical Thinking. They don’t all necessarily hit when looking at “top player” builds

[alpine wraith]

depends on situation but most of the time yes

unless it is a normal dance and using 1 coup would get you sec tech right away

you would SoD dance evis(coup) stab sec tech

of course check you have fw and fazed

otherwise just wait until sec tech is off cd and dance sec tech stab coup or even better dance stab sec tech and proc shadowcraft coup

[plush glen]

If robot says rotten does more damage just play rotten

I’ve been swapping between rotten and finality and see no significant difference

[tawdry marsh]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[plush roost]

Meh i bet tuning pass 2 weeks after HoF closes and when end bosses get nerfed one more time. But itll just be aura buffs to underperformers thats my bet

They gave sub 5% late in undermined so who knows

[weak hamlet]

Can we address the resi key mafia or

[karmic harbor]

tip 150k for a 17 pls x)

[weak hamlet]

😭😭😭

This cant be real bro

Legit not allowed to play the game

[hazy breach]

Morally decrepit tipping for resilient tries

[weak hamlet]

I can feel my will weakening…

Not sure how long I can last

[limpid sage]

Ya it’s crazy

[karmic harbor]

i paid a resiier for my 16 flodogate

cause i just wasnt getting into keys

[limpid sage]

When paying for resil keys, do you pay per try or if it’s timed?

[karmic harbor]

depends on the person

[scenic plover]

if i play m+ and only use evis instead of using blackpowder, is that fine or a giant loss?

[hazy breach]

Like 5%ish on big aoe

[scenic plover]

but nuking casters kinda good right

[hazy breach]

Per try is wild to me, because then theyre actively incentivized to grief the key so you need to do a second one

If you time is better but still yeah idk

[lucid jackal]

What entropy should I buy @hazy breach

[limpid sage]

Ye that’s what I was thinking as well

Soft inting is so easy in WoW

[hazy breach]

Kinda the cheapest one

Idk i simmed there was like 8 of them that all simmed within variance

[limpid sage]

Quickblade tends to be 33% less than the others

[warm marlin]

i picked the vers/mast one because its basically the db ring and i can feasibly recreate the bis profile very soon

u already get a lot of crit from the plexus ring

[hazy breach]

But like whatever stats you dont have you can use on your weapon enchants to make up for it anyway, so its kinda whatever

I went for the cheapest one with high vers because being tanky is comfy

[plush roost]

Resilient tipping has gotta be EU only yeah?

Never see this shit over the atlantic

[weak hamlet]

what key lvl

u doing

[plush roost]

I want you to guess

Uwu

[weak hamlet]

at 17s its a plague

no clue broski

[plush roost]

Nofun

[warm marlin]

aint nobody pugging keys in NA lil gup

[plush roost]

Rn im not pushing just weekly 17/18s and i never see that shit

[warm marlin]

who is there to even be tipping

[weak hamlet]

with that deathstalker mark maybe +12s?

[plush roost]

Real

[weak hamlet]

its real bad in eu

any resi key u are expected to tip for a spot

or be overqualified like shit

and meta class

[warm marlin]

last time i tried to pug near title range there were actually like maybe 5 total keys posted a day

[plush roost]

Thats kinda crazy. In NA people just yolo their resilient key or just do team keys

[vale pine]

wait has tipping culture entered regular keys?

[warm marlin]

NA pug scene omega dead compared to EU from what ive seen on streams

[weak hamlet]

im at lvl 17 key levels and it horrible

[plush roost]

Its not really too bad in NA but a lot of people dont post in group finder they just assemble in discords

[chrome fern]

that's ironic af, that tipping is an eu thing

and not an na thing

[warm marlin]

ah ye the boregeron stuff and whatnot

cba

[plush roost]

Like ryerson discord or the grollogs discord

Idk i just list my keys and accept whomever seems fun

How i met alot of giga gamers this expac haha

[chrome fern]

i got resilient 12's nd havent done a key on that character since

[weak hamlet]

well

people call it tipping but at this point its a comission fee

admission fee

or some shit

[chrome fern]

it's a cringe af key, somehow saving your time from bricking your key warrants payment

suss

[plush roost]

idk looks pretty healthy to me rn

[hoary lotus]

Depends on day and time

Weekend gonna see more groups for sure

[alpine wraith]

maybe my man needs those 4 am keys

[hoary lotus]

Pugging title is just a time commitment, you have time or you dont

[alpine wraith]

or you have great friends

[hoary lotus]

Yeah but that's not pugging

[warm marlin]

damn its popping

[dusk stone]

sub sadly doesnt get many invites to keys even if you look good, I'm resi 15 and can't get into 15s lol

[dry plank]

That’s true and after mdi will be worse

[dusk stone]

i think its just a lot of ppl having bad experiences with subs

[dense geode]

rogue just got no utility

[dusk stone]

well we dont die

i frequently take 30-40% less damage than other ppl on the team

[serene notch]

i feel like keys have slowed down significantly

[dense geode]

thats about it but even then other meta classes dont die eitherr

except like dh

[dusk stone]

yeah its true

[dense geode]

but dh is sick vs rot

[fleet ermine]

People are waiting for turbo boost likely

[dusk stone]

idk ppl keep telling me dk is tankier but at 15s i still see them die way more and take way more damage

[shrewd lantern]

insert joke about EU is unemployed

[dusk stone]

and heals equivalent pmuch

[dense geode]

dk is passively tankier but provides infinite utility

[fleet ermine]

And when pugs get stonewalled they just invite fotm to carry them

[dry plank]

You are playing with bad dk. All good sitting in 17-20

[dusk stone]

i mean if youre taking more damage

[shrewd lantern]

dks dont die

and even if they are at risk of

death strike xists

[dusk stone]

not on rot fights so much

[dense geode]

DK has feint when they are at 30% hp

[dusk stone]

well if you run elusive you have a stacked amount of defensive oppertunities

and exhilarating which is huge when you use defensives well

[shrewd lantern]

still not as strong as dk

[dusk stone]

frequently on 1st pull of priory my hp bar won't drop below 100% often

[serene notch]

DK seems a little overtuned ATM

[dense geode]

rogue also stacks vers dks p much have none

[shrewd lantern]

atm?

they have been good all expac

🤣

[dusk stone]

its like this

you have evasion + feint which is 50% aoe dr and 40% normal dr

[serene notch]

i dont think it was as bad S2?

[dense geode]

rogue is def unkillable but dk does the same thing but for team mates aswell

[serene notch]

significant outlier

[dusk stone]

ams is kinda big yeah

[dense geode]

both ams and amz

[dusk stone]

what ends up killing more more than other stuff is bolts

i can deal with rot fine and even huge amounts of damage is fine, its when its spikey and i don't have bolt mitigation

[dense geode]

thats why i like dk personally i actually have agency to stop those things

[lucid jackal]

Fdk is thanos yeah

All expac

But it needs a raid buff

[shrewd lantern]

yet all dk players do

is complain about db rng

swear they wrote literal essay about that shit

[shrewd lantern]

then again the same guy i saw yap about db

had the most deaths to ansurek yank

of all the melee

[dense geode]

what is db

[shrewd lantern]

deathbringer

[dense geode]

oh i see

[shrewd lantern]

yk s1 when they could just gamba and get

infinite scythes

[dense geode]

i dont know that much about dks i just made an alt and been doing 15s on him

[shrewd lantern]

i havent been paying attention to why rider frost fell off

when it was originally the play

[dense geode]

evidently theres a bug

that just makes it worse

[shrewd lantern]

i mean i heard on dimmy

the pet ai will just bug out

and afk

idk about other bosses/content though

[dense geode]

this class just feels so good to play

the only thing i miss about rogue ngl is the downtime inbetween CDS

i dont enjoy spamming

[shrewd lantern]

I like spamming just dont like dk as much

[plush roost]

what is this in reference to?

[serene notch]

https://mythicstats.com/dps?dungeon=&period=1029

last weeks run numbers

for keys

[shrewd lantern]

thats alot of sub runs...

all these fotm apes coming to this spec

[serene notch]

I think this is the most i have seen for sub

[vale pine]

nobod comes to sub

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah look how many weirdos overthink tea

smelly talent

[vale pine]

fotm people just play dh or hunter

easier and more damage

or dk

[shrewd lantern]

my dslice agrees that tea is stinky

[vale pine]

0.1% XD

[shrewd lantern]

[plush roost]

The top number is incorrecto for sure

[shrewd lantern]

my patchwerk sim really doesnt like logic gate alpha

but my dslice sim wants it

[serene notch]

WDYM?

[shrewd lantern]

is crit that much better in aoe

[dusk stone]

and they can't play sub either

so the rest of us look bad by default

[plush roost]

For example

[shrewd lantern]

i had a pug go wtf when i ended big momma

at 20m

[dusk stone]

crit is really good in aoe yeah

im at 33% and sims been telling me about that much is good

[shrewd lantern]

well tbh big momma neck and priory neck

both sim within error for me

but priory wins on aoe

[dusk stone]

craft if you dont have myth

helps fix bis ring issue

[shrewd lantern]

[serene notch]

your a god but also

[shrewd lantern]

what is this craft you speak of

[dusk stone]

neck

[shrewd lantern]

im spent on gildeds

[serene notch]

but also @plush roost

[shrewd lantern]

i have full myth tier and trinkets

[dusk stone]

were wanting to run logic gate alpha and nerubian signet this patch

[shrewd lantern]

and mh

[serene notch]

man....how do i do that crazy dam like you guys T_T

[dusk stone]

necklace required to fix the holes in your stats

[serene notch]

im over here struggling to be "avg"

[shrewd lantern]

nah i cant have a myth nek rn because i straight up dont have enough gildeds

717 and already upgraded other slots

[dusk stone]

i had a 9.6 in ara kara last night while carrying 2 other people

[plush roost]

Ah i see your image wasnt curated to all runs or smthn mb

[dusk stone]

i asked the tank after if he was watching omni cd and ye. like a lot of our damage isnt even on us tbh

[shrewd lantern]

i swear im not padding

when i hit arathi barrels for 50m

on rash

[serene notch]

yea it defaults to all runs on avg, and top on avg (I think?)

[shrewd lantern]

i have priory ring myth and fg neck and sim still wants nerubian signet over alpha

might change once we drop disc belt though

[dusk stone]

depends on gear setup

but logic + nerubian is bis

you can buy boe equiv of logic

[shrewd lantern]

i have myth logic alpha

its just simming worse on patch

higher on dslice

[dusk stone]

for patch yeah

our dslice is diff

raid is like 27 crit 27 vers but in keys its like 33 19

[shrewd lantern]

yeah might be even more

once disc is dropped

i could use a priory neck instead of mast>vers one since they sim within error but mastery neck has avoidance

[dusk stone]

31 24 my bad

[shrewd lantern]

heh

with alpha

[dusk stone]

i lost mastery because of these dumb boots

weve literally seen 6 cloths 9 plate and 6 mail soul hunters boots

and zero leather

[trail glen]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[sacred rose]

need help. can't climb out of 60-70 parses. don't know what i'm doing wrong.

[shadow lance]

Send a log mate

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[limber nest]

hey wheres a good place for me to look what i should be doing after big burst, like does sub work on a 45 sec burst, 1:30 burst? or is it just big burst and pooling until next big burst

[chrome palm]

small burst is dance/symbols/secret, big burst is flag/blades/cold blood. 2-3 small burst in big burst, 1-2 small burst between each big burst

[shrewd lantern]

You kind of just play and get a feel for it

You want to send 2 sets of your mini cds during sb flag

[sullen hare]

without a log we can't do anything but hit you with ! commands and maybe thoughts and prayers. !log will make a thread where you can put recent parses you'd like help with, I think. I forget the command honestly

[limber nest]

tyty

[bright sundial]

dum question is there going tobe a s4? or straight to new expac?

[shrewd lantern]

no s4

[glacial lintel]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[glacial lintel]

I know this has been asked multiple times but how do you guys deal with the first dance when tanks just chainpull

[alpine burrow]

!commands

[charred kestrel]

save vanish

[glacial lintel]

There are some adds that keep you in combat after vanishing is my issue. do i have to los or something?

[lucid jackal]

Either save vanish or just accept it will lose value sometimes

[late marsh]

Yo just a stupid question. Does coup de grace gain dmg from symbols and sd?

[tepid trellis]

yes?

[late marsh]

Xd thats what I thought

[tepid trellis]

Its just like any other class ability

[late marsh]

Yeah but previously theres been some interaction that doesnt add to spells/talents

[austere summit]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sullen yarrow]

!Plater

where the plater sat

[charred kestrel]

wago

[analog plover]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[alpine burrow]

!command

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[weary crescent]

Hey guys I just picked up the forge trinket and the prism trinket. Am i supposed to just alternate between the two on shadow blade windows?

[wispy crystal]

for soulbinder, when the adds spawn, do we send sTEC even if findweakness isn't applied on them?

because its easier to shadowdance -> shadowstrike the boss -> symbols + sTec the adds

so find weakness usually wont be spread to the adds

[tepid trellis]

You dont Care about fw for sectech

Sectech is like 70% shadow dmg

So the armor reductiob doesent really do anything

[random comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow snow]

honestly with adds i just use the coup optimization as a way to spread fw with storm but then i regret it cause my devoker/dks just insta yeet the fucking adds but yea doesnt really matter for sectec, more for BP @wispy crystal

@tepid trellis the dances after flag on Araz: are those always held for manifestation spawns 2&3 for p1 and after damage amps flag?

[plush roost]

You can dance every add set and farm back charges during intermission

Idk how fast intermissions are going now tho

[hollow snow]

ah ok

i can try that, i usually just backstab spam as it gets low tho to farm SHT etc

[wispy crystal]

ah so i dont need findweakness to send the sTec right?

e.g. im at max combo points -> adds appear -> dance+ symbols + sTec right away.
no shadowstrike to apply farm weakness

[plush roost]

Yeah on prog it was pull normal dance, 21 second flag 2x dance. Farm off echo for a bit. Dance adds 2 3 flag 4 5 6. Farm intermission 45ish seconds. Flag dancex2 burn. Dance add 7 8, hold 9, intermission 2. Kill boss

[hollow snow]

got you, ty king o7

[boreal fulcrum]

im trying to swap to sub from assassin, and it just feels weaker.. def more single target dmg but on AOE im doign way less-- here is a dmg breakdown from an 11 flood i just did. anyone see any obvious issues?

[plush glen]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[warm marlin]

hard to tell exactly what's going on from a details screenshot. however blades/sectec are quite low which kind of suggests you aren't using your cooldown windows very well. blackpowder is also very low, especially for the finality build. pretty much every pull in FG is 4+ targets. i also don't see shuriken storm at all, while it should mostly be used outside of dance (excluding the coup optimization in blades) it should certainly be above backstab

heres my breakdown from a 10 FG yesterday

[sacred rose]

need help. can't climb out of 60-70 parses. don't know what i'm doing wrong.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dXVxyrhfm1z8jCwL?fight=last&type=damage-done

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LaHR7K8XAw1PQTxG?fight=last

[warm marlin]

the overall parse% for keys is literally just score based

you wont get above a blue doing an 11

you could do 0 damage in a 17 and get an orange

[plush glen]

No you switch to the damage done tab and it shows parse for damage

if it says "points" it's based on the key level solely

Key parses are weird because it can be extremely route/pull dependent

I think it's best to just compare yourself to the other dps in group

I would say you should always be able to top damage by a wide margin in a 12 but if 12s are the level you're at just worry about your damage in the context of the 2 other dps

[still depot]

rotten v finality in keys - is it just a preference thing?

[alpine wraith]

kinda rotten can help put FW in aoe

but if you have decent crit they get FW anyway from random storms before dance

[still depot]

Ty

[alpine wraith]

so finality will be fine

[wraith hornet]

how many ruptures would we wanna do on aoe in like m+? wowhead guide just says spread rupture optional

[alpine wraith]

depends if pull will die fast you cast it once

or while tank gathers it

[wispy crystal]

Are guys guys running Vigor/Thistle Tea for M+?

[raw wadi]

Yeah

[wispy crystal]

Thistle does feel way more comfy for M+

Cold blood for raid ST / Cleave

[raw wadi]

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRFUVRihFDQAQOVUFEQVEVRUQWkUBQEVVVUCAQ

That's what i play in 18s

[wispy crystal]

You are Goated. Thank you bro. It's good build for high keys too?

[raw wadi]

I use it... Not sure but you have so many options.

Maybe there are other options but i like it.

Really good if you can restealth for first dance.

[raw wadi]

Be careful it's with elusiveness. You don't have cheat death

[upbeat sorrel]

Some people prefer cold blood build with the rotten

Both are playable just preference

[wispy crystal]

Got it. So need to know mechanics well

[wispy crystal]

I see. I just feel very energy starved in big packs with cold blood build sometimes

Have vigor kinda makes it feel smoother

[upbeat sorrel]

Usually for big pulls you would have a dance/symbols which gives you good energy but it can feel starved

[sullen yarrow]

hi

any good sublety m+ player down to give me some tip

i will give 100k for it

[wispy crystal]

Yeah I like to use feint to help the healer out. With cold blood in M+, there are times where my energy feels really low.

Especially if I'm using shuriken storm to build CP and then black powder

[crystal atlas]

Whats the cold blood build in M+? trying to see a pin for it or on Wowhead

[plush roost]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dckYm1XLJBD32g9V?fight=17&type=damage-done

Another one, only 2 raid buff edition

[shrewd lantern]

You spam too much most likely

[plush roost]

Literally raid build with replicating and rotten/finality instead of PE and imp sht

[shrewd lantern]

Its basically soulhunters build

I genuinely dont understand how people run out of energy in cds

[plush roost]

It can happen with cb and no procs

No imp sht

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah i havent encountered it with cb

and tea build i just macro the tea and forget its a button

[plush roost]

Tail end of cds ive missed a global cause no energy with cb

[shrewd lantern]

I kind of like it in gambit?

and fg maybe

[plush roost]

Tea?

[shrewd lantern]

not so much the others

yeah

[plush roost]

I think im just full tea gamer at this point

[wispy crystal]

Vigor and Thistle just feels more comfy in M+.

I think it's a small difference right compared to cold blood anyway ?

[shrewd lantern]

I dont have as gigantic openers

as with cb i feel

like im not hitting 14-15m openers as tea as often

The difference is giga small ye

[wispy crystal]

Ah right. Ok then play for comfort then

I just like having energy to feint and help my healer

And lowest on damage taken at end of dungeon. Always a feel good feeling

[plush roost]

Idk my openers always ride around 16-20m with tea

[shrewd lantern]

on st?

[plush roost]

Just push tea so youe sec tec is buffed by it

Oh st

Yeee opener is weaker for sure. Think i was 11m on braunpyke

Today

But i also playing 2x finality PV build

[shrewd lantern]

pv

honestly i cant notice a real diff between the builds even in energy

but i also pseudo afk outside dances as is

But yeah, comparing 1 finality tea vs cb

literally 10k dps on dslice

[plush roost]

Yea but i think with the way pull sizes are tea pulls ahead in reality

Like the priory paladin pull or floodgate or ecodome

[shrewd lantern]

the real fun is when im just filling vaults with dawnbreakers

and every tank decides on a new route

[plush roost]

Thats fun

When do i flag idk

[shrewd lantern]

like bro can you not

pull 2 minis in a row

i wanna cd both

[plush roost]

Pull 2 mini at same time no balls

Drag orb guy up the ramp

[shrewd lantern]

idk why but this season

alot of tanks like pulling elementals

with the first mini

into a corner

[plush roost]

Dawnbreaker? Elemwntals?

Wah

[shrewd lantern]

uhh

[proper temple]

!prims

[plush roost]

U mean blobbies?

[shrewd lantern]

the darkness blobs

that drop shit

[proper temple]

/prism

[plush roost]

House or orb

[shrewd lantern]

house guys

[plush roost]

Cause blobs with house was a thing in s1 as well

But its worse now that routes changed and u dont need that count

[shrewd lantern]

I've also noticed this season seeing alot more tanks pull packs by the renown npc area

or off to the side of the house

[plush roost]

Ew

Fountain banned

[shrewd lantern]

Idk im seeing alot less tanks pull the trash around the boss

now

[plush roost]

Yea they put a ritualist there

Banned banned banned

[shrewd lantern]

and by renown npc i mean

the tent area up top

[plush roost]

Oh

[upbeat sorrel]

The fountain area is terrible

[shrewd lantern]

by the duel aspirants wq

[upbeat sorrel]

With like 8 channeling mobs

[plush roost]

Oh yeab

I saw someone route like

[shrewd lantern]

theres a few packs in that area by the tent

[plush roost]

3 tact 3 shadows 2 castees 1 shadowwalkwe

In the twnt area

Like wrf

Wtf

No way thats legal

[shrewd lantern]

ngl you know whats more illegal

tanks who pull all 4 of the guards in gambit

the guys who do the giant lightning circles

[plush roost]

Nah thats fun, ontop boss

[shrewd lantern]

cant you only cloak it once

[plush roost]

If tank back pedals the boss stays out of circle and u just cleave them

[short radish]

yeah you pull it onto boss

and cleave from boss onto adds

makes it so much easier

[shrewd lantern]

nah this tank

had boss right in the middle

of all 4 their casts

[plush roost]

Lol

Unlacky

[short radish]

[plush roost]

We started doing sap imprison para the fish stick guy infront of those guards

Kill casters

And bring it all in

[shrewd lantern]

i feel like im doing something illegal tbh

[plush roost]

Murlocs do nothing, guards do nothing

[shrewd lantern]

when im doing rash however

and my sectech+coup hits arathi barrels

[plush roost]

Lol how lucky are u

To get barrels to spawn into cleave range

[shrewd lantern]

uhh pugs

if someone picks it up can you still

cleave it

[plush roost]

No idea but u cant hold it anymore

It ticks the holder now

[shrewd lantern]

idk i just checked details and i have

40m barrel damage

[plush roost]

For like 3m a second

[shrewd lantern]

for some reason

same db i dismounted and fell through the boat however

lost 9 prism stacks

[short radish]

wooooo db

[shrewd lantern]

love this place

love how carefully it was qa tested

[short radish]

i love that they brought it back as well

[shrewd lantern]

what even drops in there

that people wanted

[shrewd lantern]

LMAO

[tribal blade]

18 DB wtf

[short radish]

woooooooo rogue

[tribal blade]

goddamn

thing about having havoc and arcane too

you can legit just press BP

in almost every pull

except bosses

[willow pawn]

this is the shreddinator dead while soldiers at 90% comp

chain first pull into architect

then chain into second architect

😂

can chain first pull all the way to first boss

[tribal blade]

yes that exact thing happened in 1st pull lol

ritualist dies and then left fighting a few small shitter mobs before we can go

[sullen yarrow]

any good rogue down to some coaching for 150k gold

i mean good above 3.7k io

idk

sadge no one wanna teach me

[shrewd lantern]

lmao bro really said that when theres less than 20 rogues above 3.7

[hot creek]

16 rogues on this planet, including some chineses

[shrewd lantern]

including the chinese ones

[hot creek]

Bro

[shrewd lantern]

and zac is outlaw only

so -1

[bleak night]

ye but he offered 150k

w bait

[sullen yarrow]

oh

didnt know that

haha

mb i thinked there were more rogues 3.7

i just want a good rogue tbh

idc about io

[sullen yarrow]

ty

maybe this year

[alpine wraith]

who knows

[keen dome]

in awe of the damage

[random hare]

Well

I had this in my rio page back when i pushed for r1

I was getting minimum 5 msg’s per day

It gets quite exhausting ngl

U never get the time to reply to all of them

[teal prawn]

Would you reply to me

[keen dome]

Just reply to them with a nice picture of a cat to tide them over.

[dusk stone]

did they patch the loading screen trick?

anytime i tried to enter this priory it wiped my stacks

[keen dome]

I never managed to get it to work

[dusk stone]

you just have to be in a loading screen when shield goes down

i think it might still work but idk

[tribal blade]

try going into a dungeon with stacks, it gets wiped on going in now

i noticed it this week

means you can't do that tech anymore

thank god honestly, that was really stupid

[alpine wraith]

it did make some dungeons quite easier

like gambit or priory

if you had like dk+rogue pop prism

[vale pine]

good morning chatters, how was your sunday so far?

[random comet]

lovely thanks

[mental kettle]

!trinket

[mental kettle]

meh

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[mental kettle]

how do you play prism + passive trinket i mean

[limpid sage]

So many dungeons this season where the first pull is the most dangerous or just giga

[mental kettle]

am i just holding it till big stacks or

[limpid sage]

I wonder how many of the top keys were done with the trick

[mental kettle]

because looking at sims, pacemaker + prism sim higher than lily + prism

[limpid sage]

Wherever you get most value from it

[mental kettle]

but in practice, surely lilly is moer value?

Sinec you have lilly for every blade

and then you can still send giga prism

Is this feelcraft or am i thinking correctly here

[steel zinc]

Forge + prism

[mental kettle]

i dont have forge

(any difficulty)

my only other viable on use is lilly

[dusk stone]

prism 9 or 18 doesnt really matter unless its an amp or a specifically big pack

you usually send at 9 prism with passive

[mental kettle]

ok so like first pull of the key you send blades without anything

[dry plank]

Yday I realized that played without Improved Shuriken Storm in m+

[dusk stone]

yeah

[mental kettle]

My question is would Lilly not be better in practice in counter to what sim says

Since you have it for every blades till prism is giga

where the sim wizards at

[dusk stone]

i'm not understanding what youre asking

[mental kettle]

Playing around large prism with passive (and big pulls) means i am not sending anything for 1 or 2 blades in between

[dusk stone]

youre asking if lily prism or prism + passive is better?

[mental kettle]

with lilly i am always sending it bigger

yeah

[dusk stone]

passive + prism is better for keys for full stop

lily is fine with prism

[mental kettle]

One more thing with prism

i only got it this week

how quickly do you get stacks in araz

idk if you hold it for first damage amp or can send earlier

[dusk stone]

its 9 stacks every 1:30 with full uptime

[mental kettle]

aha ok

thanks 🙂

[dusk stone]

the whole double on use thing is largely just archon/murlok.io bait at least for keys

you lose too much passive agi for forge to be that good

[dry plank]

You don’t do that much damage outside of major CDs so double on use is giga. Also every 3min you giga blast and tank need to play around it and you will see all power of double on use

[dusk stone]

we do a lot more outside of cds this patch actually

[mental kettle]

this was my whole thought process behind keeping lilly

[dusk stone]

i still dont think its better even with preplanning you just lose so much

also you can just 18 stack with a passive its no diff

[fair anchor]

lily has passive agi tho

tho yeah not that big on an on use

[dusk stone]

yeah lily is actually ok as a trinket

the problem with araz is you have the 24k normalized stat every 3 minutes

passive has the entirety of 3 minutes to make it up

[dry plank]

I like double on use much more. I played 2 weeks with prism + passive and with araz I have more fun

[tepid trellis]

its not really about overall power, its more so power in specific windows where you need them, its the same principle as in raid

[fair anchor]

I'd play passive if I had a better one tbh I think

[dusk stone]

yeah forge is better priority for certain things but idk

[fair anchor]

playing lily + prism makes prism pop less flexible

[dusk stone]

if you were to stack 18 prism and passive with the big pull before big momma or big momma herself, thats just strictly more damage than if it were araz

so the araz pulls are actually where the value needs to come from imo

[limpid sage]

Prob with 1.5 min on use is that you miss out on a cast of it every time you full send 18 stacks prism

[mental kettle]

good point

[vale pine]

nice

[vale pine]

did you try to sign up for a m+ group and stuck in the 3h+ waiting simulation?

[mental kettle]

i was just practicing in a 14 floodgate and the tank did some demonic route missed 2 count at the end and we didnt even time it

[pastel radish]

Sounds about right

[tepid trellis]

self imposed harm

we take no pity

[vale pine]

[karmic harbor]

🤭

[vale pine]

time to start leveling a hunter ^^

or whats the current meta?

[karmic harbor]

hunter/dk/mage/dh

[vale pine]

ah ye, the classic

[pastel radish]

[carmine portal]

I was potentially going to play frost at the end of s2 into s3 but I saw the original buff list and was like

hell naw

aint no way I am hopping on that train

[steel zinc]

Frost is easy to reach skillcap compared to any rogue spec

[fathom adder]

sub meta

in coolness

[sullen hare]

We're always in the purple meta

[vale pine]

[short radish]

tbh

[sullen hare]

[short radish]

i know tier lists are memes

but archon putting us S tier

has made getting into groups somewhat okay

[vale pine]

we are lucky people don't click "only high keys"

[hollow spear]

I simmed for wowaudit on sin once and forgot to swap back to sub. Felt like it was much harder to get into keys as sin.

[short radish]

even "only high keys"

we're still S tier

and outlaw is there as well somehow

disclaimer - again yes i know tier lists are memes

[vale pine]

oh

interessting

we moved up from A

[hollow spear]

We're not meta, but we're pretty strong

[vale pine]

last tiem i looked

*time

[short radish]

yeah honestly

this is one of our best m+ seasons

in a long time