subtlety

[tribal blade]

comes down to preference or dungeon specific stuff like needing more funnel/prio or more aoe etc

right now all 3 specs are being represented at the top of the rogue leaderboards

[frigid latch]

why do first few rogues on raider io play cb and rotten

[vale pine]

CB is more single target and cleave

It is not that much difference to tea, so can switch based on preference

Rotten is in a similar position, tho it is probably more gear dependent when it's better or worse

[turbid peak]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[frigid latch]

ok thx

extra question, how does coup work when it lands as a last global of dance

since it kinda has like 3 hits

[limpid sage]

demonic queue times for 17s damn

[turbid peak]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[frozen halo]

Might be stupid question but i cant find info about it anywhere, Why is it so important to use rupture also on aoe scenarios? It feels counterintuitive on sub for me ^^

[slender zodiac]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[fleet wharf]

your rupture ticks harder when you gain damage modifiers

[frozen halo]

oh and rupture has live scalign instead of snapshot?

[vale pine]

Also keep in mind that replicating shadows means you apply or refresh 2 instances of rupture

[fleet wharf]

the only dots that don't dynamically scale are feral druid's

[vale pine]

All damage amps are dynamic on subtlety, so spells do more damage during them. Also means rupture ticks

[frozen halo]

I came back to rogue after like 2 years of break and yeah, it felt weird, thanks for explaining 😄 Was looking if there was a particular talent or some explanation in guides etc, but it seems way easier than i thought, just raw damage

[vale pine]

Only snapshot we have is finality

[fleet wharf]

wait really? I had no idea

[frigid latch]

so means if only my 1 out of 3 hits of coup land inside a dance

the 2 that are out are pee pee poo poo?

[vale pine]

Coup has

• first hit
• 0.4 sec second hit
• 1 sec third hit

[limpid sage]

pretty sure feral druid dots scale dynamically. It's just tiger's fury and bloodtalons that it snapshots

[vale pine]

So it's likely to lose the 3rd hit when used last gcd

[limpid sage]

but it's been a while since I played feral

[fleet wharf]

What else affects their damage? I mean I might be wrong there but I thought they were the only class taht kept old ish snapshot mechanics

[limpid sage]

ya tiger's fury and bloodtalons

don't remember if there are more

[vale pine]

Mastery makes finisher do more damage
Versatility makes everything do more

For us^^

Don't know what feral has as mastery

[lilac stag]

litter boxes

[raw flicker]

someone posted a picture with the sub loot on different DGs. Someone have that?

[fleet wharf]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[raw flicker]

thx

[plush jackal]

im using lily and unyelding netherprism, should i change them or?

lily for first burst and stacked up unyelding for second burst

[merry bolt]

Hi all , pretty new to sub. any guide you recommend to learn the spec in m+ focus ?

[karmic harbor]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[karmic harbor]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[merry bolt]

thank for your help

always feel good to be told to go to wowhead

[fleet wharf]

it's arguably the best guide out there, I dunno what you were expecting

[dusty totem]

Did we ever figure out if rotten was better when you did the strict opener for FW?

[merry bolt]

nvm

[fleet wharf]

if you wanna watch a video, shindigw has one

[merry bolt]

the one from previous patch ?

[fleet wharf]

no, he made another one for this season

[keen dome]

Not much has changed.

[merry bolt]

which one ?

[vale pine]

Wdym strict opener?

[dusty totem]

I mean where u symbols storm before dance to spread FW

[late oxide]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[peak jetty]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[plush jackal]

ye so i thought correctly thanks

[spark plover]

Fuu, am planing to finnaly try sub

am looking on the simulation sheet for some indication ; just want to tell that fiber is missing on the back for the dungeon slice

[hazy breach]

It is not

Its just showing weirdly

[spark plover]

ok, so its still mastery anyway ?

[hazy breach]

yes

[spark plover]

thx

[hazy breach]

But it doesnt particularly matter

As long as its not haste

Its fine

[spark plover]

was using haste on outlaw xd

should be ok

can we have 2 ring with exact same stat or not ?

[crystal bone]

nice feet

[waxen moth]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[regal sky]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[finite sequoia]

does rupture tick dmg dynamically update with flawless form?

[hazy breach]

Yes, almost everything in wow is dynamic

Except when it explicitly says its not

[finite sequoia]

good to know

thanks

[rough mountain]

Anybody here at the moment that would be up to take a look at a log and answer a few questions regarding sub rogue opener? I thought I understood what to do but apparently im missing sth that i cannot pinpoint myself

[fleet wharf]

try !log

[rough mountain]

!log

[empty plume]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hexed sluice]

You should be able to. I ran double mast/verse crafted last season

[olive remnant]

hey, i think i read sth about it before, but cant find it. Can som1 tell me how to sim for weapon enchants?

[rough mountain]

Go raidbots -> topgear -> at the bottom choose the weapon enchants for mh/oh that you want to sim

[supple steeple]

Are there any instances where you'd send technique outside of both symbols and dance? I macro'd dance and symbols together and press macro>backstab>technique whenever technique is about to come up. Just trying to think of any instances where I wouldn't be using the above sequence.

[sour sun]

Naked sectec comes up occasionally but is ultimately a minor gain you don't have to minmax iirc. Someone better can go into why you shouldn't be macroing those together though

[wind canopy]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[olive remnant]

yes but can i also sim multiple ones at the same time?

[hazy breach]

If you select multiple of them

[olive remnant]

i can only select one

in the simulation options ye?

[hazy breach]

Under enchants, right above gems

[olive remnant]

am i blind?

[hazy breach]

Right above that

[olive remnant]

ah fuck my bad, im looking for weapon runes -.-

[vale pine]

make sure to tick this if ou want to compare enchants on slots you have already enchanted

#tc-research message

^ you can use this for weapon oils

[olive remnant]

yes thats it, ty

[silk isle]

Am I blind or is Sub Raid Cleave and sub raid Council the exact same talents on WoW head

[shadow lance]

You not blind*

You just got a comment saying you can sitch CB by tea

[ornate lake]

Man pushing keys as a rogue is so hard this season for some reason imo

Waited for 45 hecking mins to get into a 15

Then just gave up and played my fdk alt

I miss the season 1 insta invites

[shadow lance]

We didn't play the same s1

[ornate lake]

I was playing assa though

[vale pine]

this season is actually easier than usual

[ornate lake]

Except for the disgusting dungeon pool, I was happy with the insta invites

Like now I'm 3200 rating and still can't get into a single 15

Maybe bad timing of the day but idk

[ornate lake]

Yeah except priory/arak it's a very easy season

[vale pine]

i am honest

i think wow needs a soloq system

[shadow lance]

Even playing that, 7th most dps played. Not insta invites

[vale pine]

pugging is a bad experience, and you can often wait for hours if you are not a meta spec

[ornate lake]

Yeah just bracket it with score range and let the leader have filters

[ornate lake]

Rogue meta when

[vale pine]

never tbh

[shadow lance]

BFA classic

[ornate lake]

Maybe why I think DF S3 was the best m+ season was because of outlaw and assa meta-ish i guess

[vale pine]

subtlety is tuned to low to be meta

assassiantion is the only spec with a niche strong enough else, which is the one niche that was stolen from subtlety

[gleaming plank]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

that does not mean rogue is bad

subtlety and outlaw just heavily rely on high tuning

e.g. if you remove the op trinkets, sub is actually not good

[ornate lake]

Only if singular focus worked

[vale pine]

but because we have the trinkets, people who have them are allowed to be good ^^

[ornate lake]

Hmmm

I was dreaming of 3500 rating but I'll be glad if I can hit even 3400 now

[shadow lance]

Moment where sub was the closest to be meta

Double dipping Db goes brew

[vale pine]

sub was meta at the start of the tier, but that was very temporary

df s1/s2 was the only time sub did good sustained aoe

since legion ^^

[shadow lance]

Currently behind balance

[ornate lake]

I'm currently at top 40 sub rogues in keys on twisting mether at 3200 rating lmao.

Not many people playing sub it seems

[ornate lake]

Diabolical.

It's so over bros

[shadow lance]

Issue is that I don't find any fun playing something else than rogue

[golden totem]

Same bro

[shadow lance]

Can't even go on alt to play

[north schooner]

honestly that's not that bad

[golden totem]

It's ok maybe sub rogue is good on fellowship

I've seen some spec on here with sub spells

[north schooner]

sub almost didn't exist last season (like WW and evoker and enh this season)

[ornate lake]

Same brother. Except fdk.

That shit is fun though

[reef walrus]

to me it felt like a watered down subtlety, was kind of fun to play for a bit, but it felt like subtlety without shadow dance and more energy

instead there's a stealth mechanic that applies a specific poison depending on what ability you use after stealthing, but you can stealth in combat

[hazy breach]

I went full pivot and played the uwu deer healer

Enjoyed it more than i thought i would (the game that is)

[vale pine]

s3 is still young but rogue was only rly popular in s1 DF for m+ and assassiantion was the by far most dominant rogue spec in m+ this xpac

[shadow lance]

S1 DF?

[vale pine]

TWW

[queen plinth]

would yall play 710 pacemaker over a myth antenna in m+

based on maybe missed uptime

[shadow lance]

I would say no

[vale pine]

its also interessting that assassiantion is almost on par with subtlety, if you look at 15+ keys which the statistic is

and this besides assassination getting nerfed

[shadow lance]

Wait

how you get 11% ?

[inland cliff]

hey, a few newcomer questions for sub stuff: 1. if we exclusively use symbols on secret tech, does that mean we also exclusively send ST when symbols is up, or can a non-symbols ST be sent while symbols is on CD and you have say... 20 sec until the next symbols? 2. if both symbols and ST are on CD, is it okay to use a dance charge to say pump black powders/eviscerates, or do we also reserve dances for those symbols+ST windws?

kinda lost on where to split these cooldowns or if i should just always hold until i have all 3

[vale pine]

we use st only with symbols, correct

but 99% of the time you will use it as your first finisher or asap if it still has cd if you start dancing

[golden totem]

I'm curious and I'll Def test other stuff than rogue. Deer healer is the one that damage or hot?

[shadow lance]

Melee DPS

[golden totem]

Yeah I imagine it would not be very fun to play same as wow but less good

[vale pine]

yes

[shadow lance]

Oh you answered

I don't think it's accurate to filter on it

Yes, it was one of the best melee

[vale pine]

if you apply it to all 3 seasons?

[shadow lance]

But 5 or 6 ranged were ahead

in s1 for exemple

[vale pine]

how would you filter ?

[shadow lance]

So, being a popular melee doesn't mean popular overall

Only dps

[reef walrus]

yeah I think the game would probably be very fun without any wow experience, but having played wow you just compare literally everything in that game to wow

and I'm not sure it has enough depth yet to be a long term fun game

[shadow lance]

Second most popular melee with 6 specs before

It's like the current state of sub rogue atm

[vale pine]

its the same relative seen if you go all dps

i added it below

[shadow lance]

Oh, you wanted to compare between rogue specs?

[vale pine]

yes

[shadow lance]

So forget my point

Sorry

[karmic harbor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[golden totem]

Think I'm probably gonna tank or heal if I try this game, to make it more different from what I'm used to

[hazy breach]

Hot one, but by the end my hots felt kinda worthless and i was mostly just spamming my ST big heal on tank with a cloudburst type totem that redistributed X of that healing

But they could obviously retune numbers at any time, since they did like 4 tuning passes during the beta weekend

Hotfixes at the speed of light compared to a few other games

[golden totem]

At least it's gonna be fresh for a couple of weeks minimum

New stuff is always good

[hazy breach]

Everything except the combat is very much diablo-esque rather than feeling like wow though

[golden totem]

Maybe it will speed up the soloq m+ on wow

[hazy breach]

It feels way more like the arpgs than it feels like wow to me, even though yeah the UI and the moment to moment gameplay is wow

[karmic harbor]

i liked that you could mark mobs with interrupts

v.nice

[frozen halo]

I can use fist weapon as offhand right?

[karmic harbor]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[frozen halo]

ah didnt know this command, thanks 😄

still 100 ilvl difference but yeah

screw it

[lilac stag]

buy a horrif vision dagger

[twilit oracle]

trying to do a streets for my last key to get some rating and ggs I guess game dead

[lilac stag]

put mythic rating of 1 required in your search parameters and you'll not see those again

[vale pine]

It does not matter that much in general, because rogue play rate is abyssal when its not meta.
Just comparing the Play rate on 15+ throughout the seasons:

• S3: Highest rogue spec is 1.5% of all dps (5.1% rogue combined)
• S2: Highest rogue spec is 2.3% of all dps (4.1% rogue combined)
• S1: Highest rogue spec is 4% of all dps (5.8% rogue combined)
  Which still means rogue was not played much overall.

[twilit oracle]

oh dang sweet, thanks

[karmic harbor]

games so easy everyones doing 10+ rn

[twilit oracle]

doesn't work

[lilac stag]

aint nothing easy about some of those 10s haha

[twilit oracle]

set minimum score to 100 and did nothing

[lilac stag]

it does work unless some dumb ass seller is using a real toon

[vale pine]

you should not, its abyssal

[vale pine]

1

[errant steeple]

wait what is this addon

[shadow lance]

Yes, we que the weirdos from the back of room

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[queen plinth]

would yall say 7.37 mil in a 16 dawn is good

dumped on them meta classes

[vale pine]

👍

[queen plinth]

dont even understand how this mage is below me

when i was not even padding in first pulls

[hot kayak]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[rough burrow]

Do rogues run dungeon slice

[ornate lake]

Chat will it be a massive loss to remove black powder from the action bar?

[chrome palm]

Ask the tank to pull <4 targets you’re goood

[ornate lake]

No but big guys die really fast

Had sir braunpyke melt to 15% HP before blades ran out

[vale pine]

yes

[queen plinth]

what keylvcl

[dusk stone]

did anyone elses elv ui break? or something i somehow got stuck in default wow UI i also cant use /ec or /elv ui

[ornate lake]

14

I had pots and 18 stack prism

[limpid sage]

idk they're all giga boosted somehow

they're supposedly meta but I'm yet to see one that pumps

[queen plinth]

play a key with me

[tropic nimbus]

Someone in guild last night said there was a update

[queen plinth]

u will love me playing mage

but i wanna do some sneaky slicen dice shit

way more fun

[karmic harbor]

are you guys tipping these people to do 17 resi keys

[queen plinth]

actually did for that 16 dawn

got instant invite

30k pain

[fossil forge]

Never fuck them

[queen plinth]

what am i supposed to do 🙁

[fossil forge]

(I just bought my playtime from tips)

[queen plinth]

actually i just got invited into a 16 halls

without paying

should start doing that with my 15 resi ngl

one offered me 300k the other day

[fossil forge]

There is 0 way someone is actually paying 300k for a 15

🧢

[queen plinth]

he was like 3.1k

so maybe

[clever delta]

people pay for all kind of shit

[lilac stag]

So wow rid itself of the cancer that is elvui and restored frame rate to game by returning the UI back to how thrall intended.

sounds like a win

[clever delta]

i was runing non elvui build for a bit

same fps

[shrewd lantern]

I feel like plater is a resource hog

most people i hear complaining about lag use it

[lilac stag]

It is. Run Kui in Raid

disable platter

[clever delta]

i have good plater profile

run smooth

had no issue on ovinax back than or razegath

[lilac stag]

What profile could you possibly need in raid?

[clever delta]

but my pc isnt potato either

[bitter halo]

What’s the rule with managing rupture in M+ for sub? Apply it to all mobs in a pack, or is there a minimum?

[warm marlin]

People have bad fps with plater/elv/details because they have things update every 2 nanoseconds

[hazy breach]

Apply it to things that will live for a while that you care about

But not while in dance

[clever delta]

yeah but most of good profiles dont have this crazy refresh rate

[hazy breach]

(so not small murlocs in gambit as an example)

[peak jetty]

Finally got my HC prism. Would you rather play it with myth antenna oder HC lily?

[warm marlin]

Details default update is like every 0.25s or something, I have it at 2 or 3 and it’s legit the same

[bitter halo]

Would you approach a new pack and apply rupture to prio mobs first then enter the rotation?

So Shuriken Storm from stealth, apply ruptures then into the rotation?

[vale pine]

you can apply rupture to mobs while the tank is gathering

and go into cooldowns once they are gathered

[bitter halo]

But using that method with SS?

[vale pine]

both storm or strike is fine from dance

*from stealth

[bitter halo]

Thanks, does apply rutures equate to much dmg?

[queen plinth]

its a decent amount outside your cds

[vale pine]

it adds up

but its not that important

you won't use rupture much in lower keys because mobs die too fast

[bitter halo]

Cool, and the last thing, what’s the best overall m+ spec to use atm?

[iron plover]

Valid but have you seen how hard a dance + symbols + blades + flag + prism boosted rupture hits??

[vale pine]

probably a hunter spec or dh, not sure

[charred kestrel]

Frost DK, BM/MM hunter

[bitter halo]

I mean sub spec sry

[charred kestrel]

Fury war

Feral

[bitter halo]

My apologies I meant sub spec

[left ledge]

Not as hard as aberrus ruptures

[vale pine]

then subtelty

[left ledge]

LMAO

[charred kestrel]

ROFL

[left ledge]

This guy tweaking

[bitter halo]

Ok I’ll try again, which sub talent spec is the best overall 🙈

[left ledge]

Do you mean hero talents

You play trickster

[north schooner]

they mean build

[left ledge]

Bro fuck

[bitter halo]

Build 🙈😂

I’m sorry yeah build

[vale pine]

trickster, talents can use either one of the top from r.io or from guides

[left ledge]

This guy got the MIND KRANGLER cranked up

[iron plover]

Do yall look at m+ parses at all

[bitter halo]

Sorry the right wording left me

[vale pine]

no

[iron plover]

This is so sad

[bitter halo]

Sorry for the confusion guys

[charred kestrel]

To many variables for m+ parses

[iron plover]

Gone are my dreams of parsing well and being instantly accepted for groups

[vale pine]

people will look at your r.io

[iron plover]

[vale pine]

and if your spec is meta

[iron plover]

But we’ve never been meta right

[karmic harbor]

@fossil forge when you make people tip do they only get 1 attempt or what

[dry stump]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[dry stump]

wasn't sub like meta in SL season 1

[vale pine]

spec distributions s1-3

% of melee dps

[dry stump]

oh lol i just remember a sub rogue in my guild at the time that was pumping in nathria and keys

[lilac stag]

Outlaw was highest in s1

[charred kestrel]

MA sec tech stuff in early s1 SLands was fun

[lilac stag]

S3 SL sub won the rogue popularity contest.

[vale pine]

oh wait

that was tww

shadowlands

let me look

[karmic harbor]

ok ig i need a new game to play

[vale pine]

sl season 1

[shrewd lantern]

lmao what

s1 was an outlaw season

[shrewd lantern]

i dont recall rogue being good in nathria

[vale pine]

sl s2

[lilac stag]

Assa was good after buffs

[vale pine]

castle nathria was a outlaw tier

then assassiantion got buffed like 100 times

and it was a assassination tier after

s2 was all 3 about equal

s3 was a "please don't play rogue" tier (in shadowlands)

[queen plinth]

damn i timed 2 keys today

whats going on

[willow pawn]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vale pine]

there is a certain irony that people asked if subtlety was afraid of nerfs first few weeks of the patch

[livid hamlet]

well apparently im an idiot cause i cant figure out how to add the shadowcraft refund sound in game

[stiff stirrup]

hey guys is it normal cold blood sims higher than tea for dungeon slice even though all guides are suggesting tea?

[stoic pier]

!pandemic

[wicked jolt]

Pandemic takes up to 30% of the duration of a applied dot/buff and adds it to your new applied one. The duration depends on the new instance.
Example: Garrote (18 sec) can be extended by up to 5.4 seconds from an existing instance.
Note: Pandemic applies to most but not all debuffs/buffs

[shadow lance]

Outlaw was so cool

Sub was better at s2

I mean, more popular

[stoic pier]

How does pandemic affect symbols and shadow dance ?

[livid hamlet]

im on step 3 of the instructions for shadowcraft refund sound "put media files in these folders". what media files? It's implied there are some provided somewhere but i see none.

[ornate lake]

Which begs the question, would sub be even this good if we didn't have prism and/or forge?

[pliant topaz]

crazy concept but specs are tuned with their items kept in mind

[plush roost]

I mean, i was playing lily pacemaker for all of prog till halfway through saladbar. Didnt feel awful

[ornate lake]

[fleet acorn]

We using Prism on pull with no stacks and blades in raid ?

[hazy breach]

Doesnt matter

[hazy breach]

Theyre also tuned with bosses in mind, who couldve known

Sub is awful at the pure ST bosses because the last 2 bosses+forge have pad and damage amps that line up well so they kneecapped us on the early bosses

[pliant topaz]

my friends are trying to convince me to come back

do i do it

[crisp lion]

ya

[pliant topaz]

or u think im gonna see the "pinaccle talents" and insta unsub again

[pliant topaz]

:C

[hazy breach]

Theyre actually called apex talents

But yeah wait for those ig

[pliant topaz]

apex

xd

[crisp lion]

could have been involved in race to stormrage second if you were playin

[pliant topaz]

soma my goat

o7

[warm marlin]

[crisp lion]

mb

[pliant topaz]

my friends are trying to get me to play with soma since im there all the time anyways

[warm marlin]

thats crazy

schizo just hates me or what?

[crisp lion]

buddy is unhinged i love it

[pliant topaz]

im in discord with him rn

hes coping

that g2 is gonna do well in worlds

dumbass

[crisp lion]

this year for sure.

https://tenor.com/view/ted-lasso-afc-richmond-believe-gif-22969950

[surreal cedar]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[pliant topaz]

he hates everyone fr

[pliant topaz]

dont worry if i play i wont be replacing you. might play dh or maybe we double rogue o7

but also most likely im gonna see the new talents

insta rage quit

[warm marlin]

I was meming i think double rogue would be fun

[livid hamlet]

do you use the shadowcraft refund sound triigger?

[maiden oar]

i did not realize it was that serious but my guild was really passionate about it

is every server like that

or is stormrage just funny

[elder furnace]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[elder furnace]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[warm marlin]

I believe there are some rather passionate actors (mostly in slurp/soma) that may have increased it beyond normal levels

[maiden oar]

i see

i am a new hollow purple member so i have no clue if there was backstory

[warm marlin]

it was good content

fire race fr

[maiden oar]

yea it was

5m difference so cool

i wish i understood the lore so i could be as excited as the other ppl in my guild were

[livid hamlet]

/wa

[maiden oar]

i was just happy to be there!

[livid hamlet]

oops mt

[crisp lion]

Think is this the first tier with multiple teams @ same prog.

comboed with some banter and lots of pash

[maiden oar]

i see

next tier will be fun then wahoo

[chrome palm]

yeah im wr 5 gemerald spire wr 2000 void pinnacle

[crisp lion]

was super fun to watch

[chrome palm]

gonna be lit

[maiden oar]

now that progs over and next tier is in like feb or something whats the best way to improve between now and then

i imagine playing for farm only probably not the most useful especially w/ turbo boost soon do i just get into keys

last tier there was no farm bc i was late ce guy so im at a loss

[karmic harbor]

isnt this the last tier till midnight

[maiden oar]

yeag

i finished prog last tier and got a brand new tier right after

and now i have 5 months of no prog

and i dont know wtf to do

[livid hamlet]

PSA that shadowcraft refund sound weakaura doesnt work. Its playing the sound basically upon any CP generation

[crisp lion]

think you got the right idea with keys.

I think just playing and doing challenging content one of the better things to do to improve.

raid isn't gonna be challenging for you soon with turbo boost and the buffs so keys probably best bet.

[limpid sage]

I def feel like my gameplay improves the higher keys I do

M+ is way harder than raid imo

[vagrant citrus]

Sorry for interrupting, but am I good to ask a kind of newbie question?

[kindred dock]

Sure

[livid hamlet]

we were all noobs once!

[vagrant citrus]

Why aren't sub rogue guides saying anything about trying to fit in a shiv during dance to get an extra stack of DM?

It is seen as a generator right?

[maiden oar]

ty ty

[maiden oar]

ok ill go find out

wahoo!

wow owns games so fun

[livid hamlet]

hmm i think its max 6 stacks right? prolly dont need shiv to get to 6 stacks.

[maiden oar]

u dont play around dm

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[maiden oar]

wait no

!backstab

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[maiden oar]

uh

i dont know the command

[kindred dock]

Never tried that 😄 but surely it wouldn’t be a dmg increase. Shift does to less dmg i guess and you don’t have it always in every build.

[maiden oar]

but besides consuming premeditation with backstab u ignore dm

because shadowstrike goes crazy

[vagrant citrus]

If it's indeed capped that makes sense, doesn't say anything about it on the talent though. But guess that's blizzard, leave it ambiguous

[maiden oar]

no its moreso that dance doesnt last that long and shadowstrike does alot of damage

[livid hamlet]

its not capped i jsut got 7 stacks lol

[maiden oar]

and also your finishers like evisc/bp/coup/sectech do alot of damage so you dont wanna rupture in dance either

even if rupture gives a dm stack

opportunity cost too big

[livid hamlet]

tried this and liked it except for the fact that it hide the shadow dance remaining cooldown and number of charges for like 10sec everytime you push it.

[vagrant citrus]

So the shuriken toss > shiv for not consuming unseen during set bonus cdg and that's why it loses out on an entir rogue rotation even though it's a primary talent?

[livid hamlet]

its shuriken storm, not toss. right?

[maiden oar]

yea storms normal

nvm u can

but its 1 danse stack either way

so just +20k from shiv if u talent into shiv

[maiden oar]

was trying to get the bot to explain backstab to consume premed

[vagrant citrus]

But shuriken storm refreshes find weakness, so that might be why it wins out then?

[maiden oar]

so does shadowstrike

[vagrant citrus]

Yeah, but shiv doesn't, was talking in that perspective

[maiden oar]

oh yeah im just saying you get fw up by the time you cast coup

so you dont need a refresh except in aoe

[vagrant citrus]

Fair

Okay, makes a lot more sense, cheers for thinking about it peeps, appreciate it

[maiden oar]

misunderstood ur question also thought u were asking about farming dm

so mb there hehe

[lilac pendant]

My first Orange parse!

[warm marlin]

i mean farm is alright for learning damage optimization

[vagrant citrus]

I was, just building on the responses I got

[warm marlin]

great time to test some new binds or new tc cooks

[maiden oar]

ah ok

[night hawk]

When do you use black powder in m+? 4 targets+?

[warm marlin]

I learned a good amount in lou farm

[maiden oar]

thats true

i didnt get any lou farm really

so i will try to make the best of mfo then

i should maybe read tc channel

i am uninformed

[vale pine]

not bad

we leeching

[brazen dragon]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[mental kettle]

!trinekt

!trinket

[wild hornet]

slide me that leech

all i can offer is an avoidance reaper

[fossil forge]

Nah i only take payments If we time it

[mental kettle]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[zinc venture]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[queen plinth]

you think playing a nhc forge better than myth antenna?

in m+

would prolly sim worse, but i think buffing them bursts better than having better off cd dmg no?

[hollow spear]

Afaik it's the other way round

Since your non blade dances in m+ are more valuable and antenna also buffs those

[dusk stone]

Double on use is worse despite double on use fotm stuff

[hollow spear]

Double on use feels better, but it's numerically worse

[dusk stone]

Think of it like this, antenna is 8k agility passive all the time + 5k crit which is also worth a lot compared to agilitt

So thats like 14-15k

[queen plinth]

so antenna worth switchign when i get mythic forge

[dusk stone]

Forge is 32k for 30 seconds and it averages out to 24kish over the time its relevent

And you get nothing outside of it

[hollow spear]

Wdym?

[queen plinth]

but how come kush and all the other ones play double on use then

[dusk stone]

Its 15k more agi for a short period and 15k less for the rest of the dunngeon

[hollow spear]

Because that's probably what they have

[dusk stone]

The question is why would double on use be better tbh

[hollow spear]

Ig double on use could be good if it fits to your routes

I.e. large packs every 90s

[tropic nimbus]

It’s for each cd

[hollow spear]

I feel like in pugs it falls off hard

[lilac stag]

pugs def more challenging to work around with 2x

[lucid jackal]

Double on use gets more value in a dungeon because downtime

[lilac stag]

Prism def be needing that combat time to keep stacking.

[queen plinth]

every single rogue i see plays double on use

in m+

and i really dont know if i want to get a normal forge maybe and use that

it would make some first pulls way easier

just thinking if it would make some pulls easier when its needed aswell, and have less dmg in down time when its not that important

[lilac stag]

get a lily over a normal forge if that’s your concern.

[queen plinth]

i have a hc lilly

[lilac stag]

then use it

[queen plinth]

is lilly good tho

[lilac stag]

Wdym?

[queen plinth]

actually free agi + mastery in burst is good yea sure

[lilac stag]

It’s like our 3rd best trinket.

people getting way too focused on only having bis. Make your gear work.

[maiden oar]

rn i have hero forge and myth prism and when i was doing droptimizers myth forge was a .9% upgrade and myth lily was a .5%

[queen plinth]

my gear works

[maiden oar]

myth antenna also .5%

[queen plinth]

im just trying to optimize a little

[maiden oar]

i think my miss rate was 10%

[lilac stag]

antenna can fuck off

[maiden oar]

but im surprised myth lily was comparable tbh

i wonder if the sim was wrong bc that just sounds weird

[queen plinth]

so antenna is shit

i dont like the trinket aswell

fkn orbs

[lilac stag]

No antenna is another visual mini game in game that is shit for seeing visuals.

It’s a strong trinket.

[maiden oar]

nvm

antenna 8k dps better than m lily as 2nd on use

slightly misremembered

[lilac stag]

And I suggested running Lily if you feel your pull / burst isn’t enough.

[maiden oar]

but according to those sims lily isnt unplayable at least

[lilac stag]

your options are basically forge or lily. You can only farm one of those.

[tropic nimbus]

I mean it’s if you have the trinket or not

[lilac stag]

You have it. Try it and if you don’t like it play pacemaker

[tropic nimbus]

I have yet to see a lily from eco but I’ve got that stupid claw in vault 3 times already

[night hawk]

Do you use blackpowder even during shadow dance on big packs?

[lilac stag]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[dusk stone]

I mean only kinda. You need constant chain pulls for the best overall and if youre not in combat youre not charging prism

Its at least kind of an argument for it

[unborn vault]

is it ok to use mace as offhand?

or better a knife

[queen plinth]

dagger

[unborn vault]

:<

do i lose a lot with a mace?

[maiden oar]

need to stab fast for shadow techniques

yes

[unborn vault]

oh ok

[maiden oar]

even a weathered crest crafted knife is ok

[unborn vault]

wdym its ok

its all i can get

[dusk stone]

With wcl youre downtime is counted between pulls into your dps. Its why you lose like 1mil off your parse.

Details doesnt count that

[vale pine]

no, please don't

[vale pine]

you can change details to count downtime too, but everyone hates to do that because numbers look lower

[lilac stag]

You need constant chain pulls to line up max stack prism with flag with a passive as well

[vale pine]

people many times hold trinkets for a long time with double on use, so not entirely sure about this

[lilac stag]

It’s concentrated dmg vs not. For our profile I think this holds merit.

[jade oasis]

2 dances outve cds right? then wait till cds?

[maiden oar]

oh i mean its not going to hold u back or anything

until u get another knife

[lilac stag]

Go run a horrific vision

That dagger is better than any 1H

[jade oasis]

i notced something about the forge top log

no black powder or shuriken, r u doing pure ST ur cleaving bc of flurry?

that makes me feel better

[maiden oar]

yea

[unborn vault]

better than crafted dagger?

[lilac stag]

It saves you a spark

So that’s up to you

[maiden oar]

shuriken can be good in some situations in that fight

but its not the most common builder

[lilac stag]

The real struggle is trying to appropriately assign prism in keys. Send it auto? Hold for 18? Sit on 18 because a boss is coming up in 80 seconds.

watched our hunter end up sitting on it a few times just because of the pull cadence.

it be what it be.

[kind thorn]

Is there a specific WA that can help manage SD? Like to hold it because SB coming up ? Thank you in advance!

[lilac stag]

LE has a timer for est charge count

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[sharp hatch]

Quick question as a sub rogue; In AOE when do you know to use Shuriken Storm or Shadowstrike to build combo points?

[tidal marsh]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[tidal marsh]

Outside of Dance, it's Storm at uhh

I think it was 3+ targets?

[night hawk]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[night hawk]

is there a weakaura that shows people in range of black powder/shuriken storm?

[lilac stag]

Do you see 4 plates? Hit BP

Are you out of dance? Hit storm.

In dance, strike.

The FW WA counts targets

[shut ridge]

so does the "targets in range tracker"

[left ledge]

Is hof gonna be open with turbo boost

That’s wild

[lilac stag]

possibly

[warm marlin]

No way

If it doesn’t close this week surely next

[maiden oar]

its fake turbo boost bc no crest uncap isnt it

still very good but less

[left ledge]

Few more ilvls on prism is def not fake

Same with weapons

[maiden oar]

oh yeah i mean relative to full uncap

[left ledge]

Yeah I guess

[maiden oar]

its not nothing

[left ledge]

But it is still pretty big boost

[maiden oar]

yea im pooling crests

backstab soup for items

wahoo!

[left ledge]

Im not

I’ve kinda given up on parsing though tbh

[warm marlin]

Once I get gilded achieve I’m probably pooling so I can upgrade stuff on the alt and get biggie discount on main

Valuemaxxing

[left ledge]

If the pull allows for it, I’ll do it

If I have to try for it

I cba

Upgrade like a turtle

UNLESS WE NEED IT FOR SALES

[maiden oar]

i should play an alt

[left ledge]

THEN IM TURBO FARMING

[maiden oar]

oh yeah i get to try sales for the first time this tier

big money

[warm marlin]

I can’t wait for sales

so poor after boe ring

living off scraps

[maiden oar]

i couldnt afford a boe this tier

but maybe next one...

[bright sundial]

Is there a reason we don't storm in cds? is fw not that strong in aoe?

[hazy breach]

If you dont strike or backstab your hero talent doesnt do its thing

[bright sundial]

Gottcha feels like each tier fw is getting no play in aoe just me?

[hazy breach]

Well you can still have fw up

They dont get removed when you press dance

[azure mauve]

@hazy breach do you know how much you lose in dslice by going silent storm?

[hazy breach]

Quite a bit

[azure mauve]

actually i can just sim it why am i even asking lol

[hazy breach]

It costs 2 talent points effectively

[azure mauve]

dude that talent is so poorly positioned

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s kinda

The sub rogue theme

Look where swift death is

That shit is in an illegal fucking spot

[fluid fiber]

is sub just superbad in m+ now? idk. for 2 weeks I just cant keep up anymore...or are other specs just way better now with more ilv? i feel like my st dmg is super shit, if i bp i have absolutely no prio dmg anymore. its fkn frustrating, idk whats going on. playing sub rogue for an eternity and had nearly 3,8k last season as sub.

[hazy breach]

Swift death is playable, but its moreso sectech being in the spot it is in that makes fade to nothing basically required

Like if we had to pick gloomblade we would never pick swift death either

[fluid fiber]

or do I have the wrong talents?! i still play with coldblood and rotten but that shouldnt be the issue right?

[dusk stone]

Yea thats what i'm saying. If double on use benfits from downtime (which it does only half the time because the other time is prism) then thats a knock against it (being that you always want to be in combat more or less

I didnt believe it until i saw wcl tbh

[fluid fiber]

Also I have a 723 lily trinket because sims says its 100k more dmg. but since sims for m+ are not that relevant idk. do i make a mistake there? i have ritual forge aswell on hc tho

[azure mauve]

i mean i feel like if you got 3.8k last season as sub that would prob put you as the top 1 sub rogue in the world

[fluid fiber]

nope that is always our russian friend here 😄

[dusk stone]

Its like this

You gain around 12000 agility during forge once every 3 minutes after accounting for decay of forge and not having good passive stat

You take that, multiply it by 1.85 because thats how much of our damage is in cds

And divide by half for every 90 seconds (flag window)

So you get 11,300 during cds and you take pasaive of antenna which is 8k + the crit and you always have that, the math just isnt great

[vale pine]

true

[dusk stone]

Its like 20% less stat

[jade oasis]

i just rolled a 1 on forge.

im gonna

die

[dusk stone]

Ill make an actual table later

[random comet]

Lost hero netherprism last night to a reroll hunter who already had champ version of it equipped

One day

[tropic parrot]

is it normal that sometimes I don't get coups in my opener? it feels really weird and bad when it doesn't happen and im wondering if im misplaying or something

[autumn pawn]

it’s the better spec of rogue atm

[tropic parrot]

I cant see that I'm not pressing the same buttons as usual

[hazy breach]

Yep you can just not proc and have the opener be completely scuffed

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[hazy breach]

You can do the second one here to prevent it, but its a bit oof

[tropic parrot]

damn thats so good to know I was hyper fixated on trying to figure out what the hell I was doing wrong

[maiden oar]

need respawning critters before every boss

[tropic parrot]

it's just absolutely rng lmao

crazy

[maiden oar]

please blizard

let me farm disorient

[tall urchin]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

Im hoping/expecting one of the new talents in midnight solves it

Like maybe you get 1 stack of disorienting everytime you leave combat or something

Because not having it proc feels terrible

[alpine wraith]

we can only wish

[tall urchin]

wouldnt getting dust back fix it?

[vale pine]

not rly

the tier set bonus makes it even a bit more consistent

but we lose that with the new xpac

[queen plinth]

which of our dmg does magical dmg

or why would those 5% increased magical dmg be relevant

[hazy breach]

Secret technique clones, shadowed finishers and shadow blades

So its like 40%ish shadow

[queen plinth]

so i have the rank 1 blackmoore rogue with like 3550 io. told me about this talent build

[lucid jackal]

Willing to bet money on the fact the new hero talents are made baseline from the current tier set for sub

[queen plinth]

his highest dmg was "70 mil"

with the weirdest opener etc

[warm marlin]

Dear god I hope they fix the coup bs if so

[hazy breach]

Ye in some form

[alpine wraith]

well i can say with around 8 years of subterfuge being krangled

[hazy breach]

Thats probably gonna be most specs though isnt it

[alpine wraith]

maybe one day we get shadowcraft not krangling

[hazy breach]

Cnat imagine it not being

[tall urchin]

lol

[alpine wraith]

when anticipation worked fine

maybe they can use AI to help themselves fix the bugs

as MS mandates 100% usage

[queen plinth]

ist this a decent build? or is not taking the 5% magical troll

[hazy breach]

Its fine

[queen plinth]

he just brusted 45 mil on 5 targets with that

was dummys thgo

[tall urchin]

how many mins? opening with 18 stacks?

[queen plinth]

yea was prism

just the burst was 45

is not taking the 5% magical troll or nah

[hazy breach]

Its fine

You get nado instead

[empty plume]

nado can feel really good or kinda useless

feels better if mobs are still alive after your typical burst

like as a cd-refunder

[hazy breach]

You can use it like the coup shuriken storm

And do big burst too

[queen plinth]

this guy uses nado inside his burst

[empty plume]

it's just a bit awkward for that because of the delay between casting it and the first shuriken coming out, and the 1.2sec coup gcd

like it kinda can replace rotten with regard to fw spread on aoe, since you wouldn't typically storm a bunch inside your CDs

[hazy breach]

But just like storm

You'd just use it inbetween coups (or when you have coup ready right after sectech)

[queen plinth]

i mean ngl the idea of using storm inside ur cds for the free spenders sounds good but wouldnt u just deal ss-blackowder dmg instead of unseenblade

[tall urchin]

sorry but is there a list of all the current bugs and shit somewhere?

[hazy breach]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[empty plume]

and then wait a full second for the shuriken to come out

it just feels awkward

[hazy breach]

Well yeah

The spell feels ass

But its good numerically

[tall urchin]

and why are everyone playing lethality and cold blood, but fuu isnt?

m+

[jade oasis]

please sub goats help me

[hazy breach]

They arent, but also theyre pretty close so you can play whatever

[jade oasis]

!log

[tall urchin]

i mean archon says they are, https://www.archon.gg/wow/builds/subtlety/rogue/mythic-plus/overview/10/all-dungeons/this-week

[jade oasis]

i fucked up one of my cd windows that fight

and somehow didnt press flag

but other than that

pls save me sub goats

[jade oasis]

it changes from dungeon to dungeon no?

[tall urchin]

top 100 yeah, but rest seem to be going for cb, since the main list is based on all logs or something? but yeah ait, i see the point! and ty for buglist

[empty plume]

re:tornado
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ngydtYTDxkBqGZ42?fight=6&type=casts&source=4&view=timeline

this is what I meant when I said it feels better if mobs are still alive outside CDs

[lilac stag]

So 59.7% are correct.

[empty plume]

not saying coup tornado coup is bad

but the spell feels bad

[jade oasis]

id say cb isnt bad on like streets db no?

[empty plume]

until your keys are so high that mobs survive the aoe burst and you can tornado as a refunding tool

[hazy breach]

Idk

Im literally agreeing with you

[empty plume]

provided log of alternative use case

but that use case does not exist in typical keys, only extremely high keys

that's all I'm sayin

[hazy breach]

I have no idea what youre arguing about

Im literally agreeing with you

[jade oasis]

this looks very wrong in my head

[hazy breach]

Why are you trying to convince me

[lilac stag]

Vigor gives you way more forgiveness for feint. imo it’s always the play.

[jade oasis]

idk i dont play this spec in keys anyways

idk why i said anything

[empty plume]

I simply provided a log of what I was talking about /shrug

[tall urchin]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[chrome palm]

the assa fatebound tierset really makes me think this is the case, it basically "fixes" the problem created by the existing capstone

sub deathstalker new hero talent will be black powder darkest night 💀

[alpine wraith]

meanwhile deathstalker tier set

took too many beers

then decided to also eat a chunk of peyote

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/raw-gif-798993911785685941

[hazy breach]

Surely deathstalker is getting some baseline love

Or incase its not, lets just hope its fully ignored so we can continue ignoring it

[pliant topaz]

% 30% buff to all pasive shaodw damage of deathstalker o7

[chrome palm]

your auto attacks now do the same damage as eviscerate

[alpine wraith]

funny enough but remember

[pliant topaz]

you should apply to be a designer

no joke

[alpine wraith]

we got two 2x

and one 3x

then a baseline 40% buff to all of it if you are sub

[pliant topaz]

already same skillset and vision as a senior one

[alpine wraith]

then tier set decided to be dog

think their senior designer is now AI

and they spend most of the time fixing the shit it breaks

that would explain the low productivity

[jade oasis]

guys i need support

[chrome palm]

if that were the case then they ran out of tokens a loooong time aog

[alpine wraith]

nah they have unlimited tokens that is why they keep breaking things or making nonsense like shadowed and shadowcraft

unneeded bs

that only make more problems for them same as sec tech

[pliant topaz]

i doubt they spend more than 10 tokens a day on the entire design team combined

token 1: what pizza to order

token 2: from where

token 3: does jenny like me?

[chrome palm]

token 4 how do i fix raid renown

[pliant topaz]

might get to design around token 9

[chrome palm]

token 5 no really how do i fix it

darkmoon faire saved our warlock

[pliant topaz]

token 6: why is armin such a hater

[chrome palm]

he was condemned to -3% for weeks

[fickle swan]

is there someone who could help me learn sub? i started a few days ago and im 692ilvl so i still need gear but i want to make sure im doing things right

[pliant topaz]

almost everyone here is happy to help and answer questions

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[jade oasis]

armin

[pliant topaz]

any of these are great starter points to learn the baseline

then u can ask more neuance questions if you have them here

[jade oasis]

can you please log review me

[pliant topaz]

unfortunately not rn, have a meeting in 6 minutes. but maybe later!

when its busier here, you can ask other people around many people would be happy to help if they have time

[tall urchin]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[tall urchin]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[meager coyote]

why tf does my dungeon slice sim insist antenna is better than double on-use 💀

[hazy breach]

The sim is using the trinkets correctly

[shrewd lantern]

double on use is overhyped

and only good if forge and prism

[hazy breach]

Its not like its garbage, its definitely good, but far from required

[shrewd lantern]

why does no one mention track of the trinkets

or we assuming myth track everything

🤏 People without mythic prisms

[alpine wraith]

or people that didnt kill M saladar to get 717 vault every week

that are 722 now

smh

[torn shell]

!finality

[meager coyote]

obviously myth track my man

I wouldn't be asking sim questions if I wasn't nearing the "bis" profile

[meager coyote]

did you mean to say incorrectly? or am I tripping

[hazy breach]

No

[meager coyote]

huh

[hazy breach]

I meant to say that the sim is using the trinkets as you would

correctly

[torn shell]

How does finality work?
It procs when i spend EV Rup BP, and it empowers the next cast of the same spell. But why does it seem like it only works for every other cast of the spenders. Worth tracking this at all?

[hazy breach]

Which is waht i said

[meager coyote]

yeah okay I get it

thank you for clarifying 🙏

[hazy breach]

Well it only works on every other. You cast one and get the buff > consume the buff > repeat

But no not worth tracking

[meager coyote]

I see people running rotten and my sims say 1 finality is better for dungeon slice, just rly weird to see like top players run 1 thing while sims tell me differently, when our gear is fairly comparable is all 🤔

[shrewd lantern]

there is no bis profile

[graceful osprey]

Assassination for mythic loom is the play yeah?

[meager coyote]

play w.e ur comfortable with

[rough patio]

if ur group needs p2 damage tho sins execute will be rly good

[shrewd lantern]

loomithar doesnt matter what yoy play

[lost karma]

Sry but maybe this has been answered a million times but why is sub getting autumn on the last two bosses? I just started progging nexus

[shrewd lantern]

your cd set will come back for the titan

[lucid jackal]

On nexus it makes Ur dragon burn a bit better but it doesn't really matter

[hazy breach]

Not a huge deal but lets you do do a little bit more burst yea

[lost karma]

I c

[lucid jackal]

On dimensius if you don't get it, you probably don't get second sectec in cooldowns without really good flying

For the burn

[lost karma]

When do you get autumn on dim?

During play?

Plat

[lucid jackal]

After platform 2

[lost karma]

Ty

I need to screenshot this lol

[plush glen]

When you're looking at M+ logs, I know you can see your parse for the given key level but is there a way to actually look at the top parses from that key level? Found it

[shrewd lantern]

I see alot of logs get it first time its up

oh wait thats salad

[warm marlin]

After extensively dimmy testing the main loss from no autumn is that you need to either mildly grief the first add wave on pargoth or the dmg amp

You can fly fast enough to have flag blades up when the amp starts without autumn, but you’re only getting like 1.5 gcds of blades on the plat2 adds if you cast as early as you possibly can

[lucid jackal]

I mean I got so many of the flying achievements, I consider myself a decent flyer, and I was rarely able to get 2nd sectec in the amp

Now, I could be a noob

But I feel like if I struggle with it, most ppl will as well

[warm marlin]

Yes autumn makes it all way easier and is a strict gain

but if you know the flying route on dimmy it’s not that bad. you’re just inting the first add set a bit

[lucid jackal]

Well I do but I couldn't get it consistently is what I'm getting at

Now maybe it's because I am also shit

[frail kindle]

uh i think i got it more often than not but i remember on our kill pull i think i missed it xd

i wanna say probably like 60/40 or 70/30 getting it vs missing it

[warm marlin]

Our last 10 p3 pulls before kill my cb sectec was always my 3rd last gcd in the amp with 2 gcds after it

[vagrant sinew]

yeah but you killed pre platform nerfs guy so your push was also probably alot more static

not that were pushing early like idiots but all it takes is 2s

[warm marlin]

Were you rupturing?

[lucid jackal]

Ya I always rupture on platforms

Ig that would Maybe let me get the sectec in then

[warm marlin]

ye i was doing flag -> dance symbols blades sectec insta in amp

[sand wigeon]

any tips to doing more overall dmg in m plus? i'm a bit low

[torn shell]

How do you know if a boss abiility is aoe or not?
trying to figure out when to feint vs evasion vs cloak on M loom P2

Arcane outrage is "arcane", writhing wave is "nature", ground puddles are "arcane"

all of these abilities are from souce "loom'ithar" (not environment)

[warm marlin]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[warm marlin]

if you're trying to figure it out on your own, its mostly pressing feint and walking into abilities and checking on logs

i dont think theres a consistent way to tell otherwise

[torn shell]

yeah i was trying to see other peoples 'mitigated logs' and it was annoying. great sheet, ty for sharing

[still depot]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[still depot]

the 10 seconds part, does that mean just dont punch any buttons? or can i still BS/fok

[hazy breach]

Still backstab yes

[still depot]

okay tyty

[hazy breach]

Its only on singletarget

[still depot]

ah okay so in keys if you have coup just send without holding (as long as it isnt on ST boss)

[fair stump]

Are sims up to date with the belt nerfs?

[short radish]

belt nerfs arent live yet

[tidal beacon]

is there some rule to hold cds once flag hits 30sec cd?

[short radish]

yeah general rule of thumb is hold dance/symbols

so you have 1.5 dances and 1.3 symbols going into flag

if in doubt just hold

[tidal beacon]

and its 30sec?

[short radish]

youre better off wasting 5 seconds of cd on dance/symbols

than not being able to double dance +symbol

"generally"

[stoic pier]

Does symbols of death have a pandemic effect? Like is it good to refresh when there is 3 seconds left of symbols ?

[lilac stag]

You’re not using symbols in that manner

Its primary use is to supercharge secret technique,

We actively avoid trying to cast it multiple times in succession

[tidal beacon]

anyone mind taking a look at my log and giving me some tips? struggeling with ST, I think im missing something 🙂

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8t61NknCpDZ3fXma?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1

[fair stump]

huh, 1.3?

I've always held 1.5 dances and 2.5 symbols

[vagrant hearth]

does that shuriken storm vanish macro thing still reset the first dance timer or did they fix that

or did i make that up in my head and im crazy

[tribal blade]

fixed

[stoic pier]

Atrophic or numbing on a +14 priory?

[tribal blade]

numbing to make trash easier, atrophic to make bosses and the whole key overall easier

[graceful osprey]

Crafting gear counts for unlocking the trade up crests achiev correct?

[valid vine]

!enchant

[elder isle]

!log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/G2rzMnHJcwFPXjqg?fight=26&type=damage-done&source=11

[regal sky]

anyone familiar with mrt personal notes? my shit gets being overwritten as soon as fight start and i couldnt find where its coming from

[cedar eagle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[scenic tree]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0