subtlety

[lilac stag]

the holy pali is good about figuring out a class and very good about quickly gearing

[hazy breach]

Yes

[kind wasp]

Anyone using Causese wa m+ pack and not getting the affix bars to show up? Worked last season, no idea what changed

[lilac stag]

download all of the associated packs with it? thought that needed media and maybe one other

[kind wasp]

Yeah everything else is working fine, only the affix stuff not working.

[lilac stag]

did you "New functionality added to anchors, therefore a full update is required for season 3:"

usually means full on delete, reload, then import

[kind wasp]

Yeah, maybe I should try again

[lilac stag]

i dont have the issue you are so, just for fun

[hoary bloom]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[kind wasp]

I did all of it, still only issues with affix

[brazen meadow]

are there any niche optimizations that aren't highlighted in the wowhead guide?

[lilac stag]

Click the affix group in the anchors WA, is it off the screen?

[kind wasp]

nope, moved them both as well, very weird

[lilac stag]

How are you testing the affix?

[kind wasp]

in m+

But I'm just getting a different pack, no problem. Thanks for helping

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short radish]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[short radish]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[short radish]

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[wispy crystal]

am i seeing this right, rogues holdign CDs for 2.5mins for Mythic Soulbinder?

22s / 2mins / 4mins30

[vale pine]

activate shadow dance

but the cooldowns on the fight are aligned with add spawns

[random furnace]

just a question, on m+ is it ever worth to press black powder? it feels so bad to press it

[vale pine]

it is

between cooldowns or when you gather mobs

[random furnace]

so while im on shadow blades its still worth to press? with 5+ mobs ig?

[vale pine]

you would spread outside of cooldowns

not during

[north schooner]

he's talking about BP fuu not rupture

[tidal marsh]

[vale pine]

oh my bad

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[vale pine]

bp on 4+

its worth always

[random furnace]

ty goat

[placid hornet]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[vale pine]

ofc don't forget to use coup

in aoe

[lilac stag]

That where you have the most adds out. You can add shadowdance to the timeline and it may make more sense

[wispy crystal]

got it. do i wait for all the adds to come out before popping flag / blades?

[rancid zephyr]

how do people sims for aoe? like which target counts and duration?

[wispy crystal]

because there will be 2 adds that spawn that take 200% increased damage

[north schooner]

depends on how fast the adds die. If you could fit the entire burst while all the adds are gathered then you can delay a bit

because it takes a few seconds for them to arrive from around

[lilac stag]

If you want to try to pinpoint it watch one of the log replays. Pretty sure you start up after the first canister break for the biggest bang. If your group deletes them you may need to go sooner. If this is prog, prob after the canister break is safe.

[north schooner]

btw since scath is here and he loves rupture, what if they made rupture proc shtecs (with an icd to not have to play bleed build) to make it feel less out of place?

[short radish]

Can you not?

[north schooner]

[lilac stag]

Go play assa if you want rupture.

[worldly jetty]

Is sub the hardest spec in game. ?

[short radish]

No

Well

Depends

But no

[lilac stag]

yes

[short radish]

Sub has a high skill floor

[north schooner]

I would rather play aug than play assa

[short radish]

But then it kinda is chill

Then it had a really high ceiling for stupid min maxxy stuff

But most ppl ignore that

[lilac stag]

Ret, assa, bm, fury. Those are chill

The ease of fucking yourself over in sub is cringe for the majority of players

[short radish]

Idk I'm more chill on my sub than I am on ret sometimes

[lilac stag]

wait for your reclear timers in turbo

And get back to me

[short radish]

Ret is too mongo bongo your brain just turns to mush

[lilac stag]

most people in here that say it’s chill have be on it for years.

and it still triggers them with gameplay aspects

[maiden oar]

first flag @ 21s, 2nd @ 2mins 3rd @ 430

2m and 430 can be tweaked depending on how fast adds die but 21s is always good

well alot of people are doing it later now but 21s does let you get the cb sectech on the first guys to come out of the jars

dunno why theyre doing it later but thats probably also not bad

[wispy crystal]

got it will do that!

[fleet wharf]

I've been spending some time on the dummy, but there's some variance to when the 2nd Sec tech comes out during cds based on your coup procs right?

[lone linden]

Yep either you squeeze it in your first dance(if playing TFD) or it happens start of your 2nd dance

[fleet wharf]

if it comes off cd during TFD, you want to sendit during first dance or not?

or rather, if you can speed it up by using symbols when it has 10 sec left go do that or just send sec tech as first gcd on the 2nd dance?

[lilac stag]

Send it. Immediately dance after

The additional hits end up in dance then

[fleet wharf]

don't you sometimes get sec tech coming off well before TFD ends though?

[lilac stag]

If you high roll rng sure

[fleet wharf]

still send it asap right?

[lilac stag]

Unlikely on a dummy with no raid buffs

Supercharge and send

[fleet wharf]

Thanks for the clarification

[wheat sentinel]

So aside from just unequipping my mh, was there an addon or weakaura that got around bubbling wax occasionally applying to the wrong weapon? lol

[still bronze]

What is the soft or hardcap for mastery for sub?

[hazy breach]

Theres no "wrong weapon"

It doesnt matter

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter, just sim your stuff or if you cant be bothered with that just skip everything with haste

[wheat sentinel]

Wrong weapon as in, the one I just put a weapon stone on.

[limpid sage]

I’ve been able to get it pretty consistently by sending Symbols pre shadowstrike

[quaint lodge]

@vale pine

theres a typo in the wowhead explanation guide if you wanna fix it

"rpoc"

Also here

[gaunt bluff]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[vale pine]

can do later, thanks

[terse gazelle]

Does anyone know the "First Dance" trait?
I don't understand the logic behind casting two secret techniques during the first Shadow Dance. Even if you hit the dummy a lot, the second secret technique will be cast as soon as the first Shadow Dance ends. Does anyone know?

[wet echo]

if you're full raid buffed with lust, you can get to use it in your first dance

[terse gazelle]

No Buff

[wet echo]

yea, you're not gonna get enough CDR without buffs on a dummy

[terse gazelle]

okay

I'll try

what need buff?

bloodlust?

[hazy breach]

You dont really need to worry about it

Just send sectech whenever its ready

You dont "need" to fit it inside the first dance

Sometimes you get good procs and it happens, sometimes you have prepped so you know it will happen and sometimes it doesnt

Its fine either way

[quaint lodge]

Two questions :

Is naked sectec still applicable anywhere in raid this season

Why do we not use shuriken storm between coups in non-blades, do we just value the shadowstrike mroe?

Edited ^

[wispy crystal]

Is it better to play Sub or Assas for mythic Loomithar? Sub seems good for killing the webs real quick

[void ocean]

if u dont have SB up u wont generate enough CP between coups

in single target

[quaint lodge]

Yea but you're generating same amount of cp between coup casts between backstab and shuriken storm anyway outside of blades right

[limpid sage]

Do you have numbers on the difference between the two?

Because I feel like my burst is nuclear when it happens, but not when it doesn’t

[void ocean]

storm more energy afaik

[quaint lodge]

Is 5 energy diff really worth losing ub stack?

[lucid jackal]

Ideally u dont want to ever swap lol

[pure jay]

!logs

[lucid jackal]

No

The reason you do it in blades is beacuse it fills your CP bar up anyway

Outside of blades, it doesn't, so its not worth pressing

[quaint lodge]

So lets say you have coup outside dance, what do you do?

Coup -> backstab -> coup?

[lucid jackal]

if tis 20 sec before flag, u just spam backstab

But yeah, otherwise just coup backstab coup

backstab as much as u can before the buff goes away

[vale pine]

ideally yes, but you also might need to adjust to your guild groups weaknesses

[quaint lodge]

So if its coup-bs-coup
why that over
coup-storm-coup and save the ub stack?

[lucid jackal]

Because theres no guarenteed UB proc to begin with

and also, storm costs a lot more energy

[quaint lodge]

Yk I just realized disorienting is related to sectec not coup

😭

[lucid jackal]

when ur out of dance/symbols energy is an actual problem

[quaint lodge]

Right okay, and then my other question is about coup inside dance

[wispy crystal]

We on progression. Need to swap to webs

[hazy breach]

Idk what you mean

[wispy crystal]

I'll just play sub so the webs die faster

[quaint lodge]

You're using strike in between coups?

[lucid jackal]

Yes

As stated before, only in blades you press storm

Or aoe

[quaint lodge]

Why is it okay to waste the UB stack here

[placid elk]

what was that website that showed timers during boss kills?

[lucid jackal]

Because strike generates combo points

Storm doesn't

[lone linden]

double dance with shadowblades on the boss, and use your dances in between blades to kill the tethers faster

thats what i did on prog

[quaint lodge]

Okay so you value the stronger coup > the ub stack

Got it

Ty

[wispy crystal]

Thanks that is helpful. I'll practice that.

So we can use blades / flag to pump boss.

Then dances - sTec to kill the webs faster

[quaint lodge]

Yeah

[limpid sage]

Like numbers on the avg iteration without double sectec in first dance vs with

[void ocean]

u can also coup vanish strike coup

outside the dance

[quaint lodge]

Yea I do that occasionally

Good tip

[hazy breach]

Yeah i dont know how to get that info out of simc, not sure its possible

[barren haven]

U mean lorrg.io maybe?

[ornate lake]

Guys which spec is better for last two bosses? Assa or Sub?

[pure jay]

sub technically

[ornate lake]

Do we need to hold CDs anytime?

[lucid jackal]

Not technically, just is

Sub is significantly better than sin on the last 2

[lusty acorn]

hey guys, is it worth using rupture on all 3 bosses on soul hunters?

[lucid jackal]

Yeah, play replicating shadows

[lusty acorn]

thanks

[lucid jackal]

Not really

Nexus you CD on CD, on dimensius you might hold dances and symbols depdning on what ur damage looks like to setup for platforms

but thats it

[tepid trellis]

Assa is overtaking sub on nexus king very soon

[pure jay]

why do you say that?

[tepid trellis]

its been slowly creeping up on sub

[ornate lake]

Fights where I don't hold my CDs are pink logged.

Any fight where I hold end up as blue logs

Hate it

[tepid trellis]

and with platform becomming less and less of an issue

assa will just do more dmg

[pure jay]

relatable lololol

our 10 ass logs vs 255 sub logs lol

[vale pine]

happens every season, i am surprised sin did not get a buff yet tho

[pure jay]

would be nice if bugs get fixed

[vale pine]

would also be a buff

just to notice this

sub also has bugs which you can fix to buff it

^^

[supple verge]

I love sub sm this season it is seriously so fun

But the refund delay gets under my skin more and more every raid lol

[vale pine]

we just hope for a fix soon

[supple verge]

Yea I mean at least it's not the BtE bug

That shit was truly awful

[trail epoch]

Is it still possible to trigger First dance mid trash via vanish?

[lucid jackal]

nop

[trail epoch]

ugh. When did they fix it?

[hazy breach]

Well during trash you can, if you just afk

But the "doing it without afking" bug of last season was fixed

[iron plover]

How easy to play is sin during raid

[lilac stag]

easy

[iron plover]

:o

maybe I switch to sin for raid so I can binge my shows on the side

[chrome fern]

honestly sin is not that different to sub

1:30 ccd based spec

if anything sub probably has a better afk playstyle

[vale pine]

only because of tier

it will be back to 120 in the next xpac

unless blizz decides to give the cdr baseline

[fallow nimbus]

Don't be so sure about that

[vale pine]

also assassiantions fatebound has the problem of inverse aoe scaling

[chrome fern]

yeah i wonder if these tier sets are the WIP extra hero talents

[fallow nimbus]

Midnight will pump new stuff into assa and remove the last weaknesses

[vale pine]

possible

looking at the trend of DF/TWW

[fallow nimbus]

As a starter the aoe rotation will be simplified but the dmg stays the same

And st will be buffed

[chrome fern]

he not breathing the copium he injecting it

[vale pine]

I don't think the rotation is a problem on assassiantion

but any improvement is good

[lucid jackal]

FB sin literally has nothing going on

[chrome fern]

yeah not sure how you simplify the sin aoe rotation... considering it's pretty much the ST rotation

[lucid jackal]

Sin aoe is extremely busy wdym lol

[chrome fern]

yeah but it's actually important to be here keeping your dots up, lol

[ornate trout]

whats the m+ class to go these days? sub sin or outlaw?

[fallow nimbus]

Auto spread bleeds all the time but stealth just increases the targets

[chrome fern]

i don't find it that way, but i am a sin main

[meager merlin]

can i get loom loot in vault if i kill plexus + soulbinder ?

[vale pine]

all 3 work, sub is currently a tiny bit more popular

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

Soulbinder is the 3rd boss in the journal

[chrome fern]

what's so busy about it? you have IC to spread dots, and vanish if it's a long pull, and you just ST rotation into a prio target whilst maintaining tempest

[steel jolt]

still need to keep rupture up on 5 targets

and spatter

[chrome fern]

it's no more busy than sub, really

[worthy bison]

Just different

[fallow nimbus]

Sub looks at cds and assa looks at dots

[worthy bison]

I will say, with sub I can lead damage in boss fights. That’s pretty rare as sin.

[chrome fern]

that's just current tuning

and fight niche

[worthy bison]

Should I be talking about theoretical tuning then? You’re totally correct obviously

[chrome fern]

i mean it comes and goes, as it does for most specs

[fallow nimbus]

If assa ever tops boss dmg then it will be the top m+ meta spec

[chrome fern]

amirdrassil sin was top on everything pretty much

[worthy bison]

That’s just the practical outcome of current tuning and damage profile

[worthy bison]

A rogue player can dream can’t they?

[fallow nimbus]

Look at the channel name and go rethink your life choices

[plush roost]

Ever play bleed on a pull that lasts 1+ minute? Gets very busy very fast

[chrome fern]

what pull is lasting that long?

[steel jolt]

lots of pulls. don't you do keys above 10?

[plush roost]

Any key above 18 current season

Last season 20s

[chrome fern]

not really tbh

[lucid jackal]

Tracking death mark, and your bleeds, and caustic is a lot

[plush roost]

Wdym not really i played those keys haha

[fallow nimbus]

Join some +10 with guys under 1k score and pulls last longer

[lucid jackal]

Like sure if they just did in the first set of bleeds it's fairly easy but lol

[tranquil egret]

!log

[lucid jackal]

That's not the whole game

[chrome fern]

i don't think it's any harder than tracking all the related damage amps of sub

[plush roost]

Rookery second pull into third into 4th pull are all minute long (ik cause every pack would lead to dm kb dm kb

[plush roost]

Whats there to track with sub? Your rotation is conditioned on SoD and Flag

[chrome fern]

idk what to say, other than i have zero issues keeping track of dots

maybe im just wired differently

[plush roost]

I mean same, doesnt mean it doesnt get busy tho

[lucid jackal]

Sin is literally just do your damage sequence

Sub*

Like idk

[chrome fern]

you need to make sure you are not sending dances too close to cd window, you need to know symbols charges, you need to know if you have fazed, there are lots of thing to keep in mind

[lucid jackal]

It's the same in aoe and st

You don't need to do any of that tho

[plush roost]

Youre not just tracking dots but reupping them while maintaining CT and building for them. FoK doesnt always fill cp so youre spending 1-3 globals between rupture reapplications

[lucid jackal]

It's literally just "don't cd 30 sec before flag

That's the only thing

[plush roost]

It gets busy

[vale pine]

hot take

ct should get a cd

[lucid jackal]

Plus deathstalker plus caustic

[vale pine]

makes it a lot easier for new players to understand and play

while not rly changing much else

[chrome fern]

my one concede is that target swapping as sin sucks dick

[tidal beacon]

watching a stream with the rotation displayed, what is this?

[dusty totem]

Mag'har racial

[plush roost]

I mean nobody arguest hat onehehe

[vale pine]

orc racial

maghar orc to be specific

[plush roost]

Plus having to evaluate how many bleeds should be reapplied versus just envenoming for spatter before pack is dead its a lot

[chrome fern]

but it's really not hard (to me) to just put out 5 ruptures, and fok env, and occasional mut prio target

[shadow lance]

And you playing it wrong btw

If you play bleeds

[plush roost]

I mean, yeah, thats not hard. But then youre playing suboptimally with current build

[shadow lance]

You should put more than 5 ruptures

[chrome fern]

i mean entirely depends on the pack... cant do more than 5 ruptures on 5 targets

[vale pine]

you can play sin in easy mode just as you can do on sub

can we not make a strawman with bad comparisons

[plush roost]

If you arent rupturing every mob in ecodome youre slowing down the key

[pure jay]

sub feels much harder then sin

at least on araz for me

[vale pine]

if we go to min/max subtlety just has infinte possibilities, so if we go to the extreme its the most complex to play perfect

[pure jay]

araz is my current mega flaw/weakness

[shadow lance]

Every pack is 5 targets for sure

[vale pine]

but then again

if you do the bare minimum on both they will both perform good enough

lets not start a holy war about "but your spec, but my spec"

subtlety was easy when we spammed bp/storm most of the time (early DF)
Mainly because the baseline is easy, but you could argue sin is similar right now

[chrome fern]

we're discussing about how sin has apparent busy rotation, but just cause you need to put out dots, doesn't inherently make it busy. in the same vein, needing to know the intricacies of setec pulling with coup does not exist in the slightest on sin, which i would say is a far more complex concept ot have to consider

[plush roost]

Cmon man, "just put out dots" was not the argument presented haha be real

[pure jay]

sub should've never been a pve spec

is my angry boomer take

[vale pine]

thats just ragebait

[shadow lance]

He is

[chrome fern]

not trying to minimise it, but every effect is essentially a dot, can you track debufs on targets is sin, can you track cd's is sub

[lucid jackal]

Sub is "do the st rotation and also press bp based on target count" everything else rotationally is not that busy.

Sin you have to manage bleeds, caustic, and death mark

[shadow lance]

Agreed with Guy

[plush roost]

Lingering darkness my beloved :((

[lucid jackal]

You don't need to manage fazed and the "stopping Cd's" rule is literally just 30 seconds before flag, stop and hold. It's not that complicated

[shadow lance]

Once packs last more than your initial dot application, you need to track stuff

Ofc it's fcking easy to play when you stealth between every pack in 10s

[tidal beacon]

"stopping Cd's" does that include shadow dance use?

[plush roost]

The hardest part to manage sub cds is when youre overcapping on dance in aoe without sod.

[chrome fern]

i mean yeah, but, and i think this is the fundamental misunderstanding, tracking dots is easy for me

[plush roost]

Thats it

[pure jay]

for me sub is the hardest of the specs to play well/correctly

because it feels so bad outside of dance

[vale pine]

sin has static cooldowns, why would you lable it as busy?

[plush roost]

Yeah but is out of dance hard? No its backstab soup

[pure jay]

if anyone can help with araz as well I'd love you forever

[plush roost]

Were talking about AoE maintenace of 3 dots spatter and dsm vs the cdr management of sub. Deathmark is very easy to track haha

[vale pine]

subtlety has more rupture maintaiance than sin

yet we would not say its busy

[shadow lance]

At least, we apply 2 by 2

[vale pine]

find weakness if optimized needs to be managed, you could see as a conditional dot

[shadow lance]

Rofl

[vale pine]

but that all comes down to very specifics

[chrome fern]

does replicating pick targets without rupture now? or still the closest

[vale pine]

as mentioned earlier, if we just talk about playing both "lazily" it rly isn't that diffrent.
Sub in a sense is harder because the lazy approach is not that straight forward given cooldown management

everything hyper optimized will be hard

w/e of spec

[plush roost]

I disagree with that. Sub rupturing is very easy to maintain because youre not fighting with ct and spatter and dsm. Outside of dance its very easy to maintain bleeds since its 1-2 globals of storm and rupture 2 targets and youre not faced with "should i bp or rupture?"

When its time to dance/flag it takes priority over rupturing and you care less about its maintenance

[plush roost]

Meant to reply to this ^

[lucid jackal]

Idk why we are pretending that DSM, caustic, and bleeds is simple lol

[chrome fern]

caustic is incredibly simple

wot

[vale pine]

idk what about dynamic cooldowns is simple?

if we pull 5 mobs

a new player will just start from stealth, and garrote + rupture the main target 2 times

what part of this makes handeling dsm, caustic, bleeds, etc hard?

[chrome fern]

well ambush first, but yeah

[vale pine]

for subtlety, a new player will rupture the main target and spam bp/evis

[plush roost]

Ill let you finish the thought, but were more talking about 10+ target m+ pulls that last longer. Ofc its very easy to use your IC window

[chrome fern]

amb, gar, rup rup, gar, mut, all applied and then you just keep up ruptures and ct

[vale pine]

you have vanish

[plush roost]

When you dont have IC and its time to reapply bleeds.

[vale pine]

so you get another ic free

[plush roost]

You dont have vanish for every pack

[chrome fern]

if packs are lasting over 1 min, you kinda would

[vale pine]

yes, and i feel like i repeat myself

so is cooldown management

you have 3 dynamic cooldowns on subtlety to handle

[warm marlin]

A new player is going to forget to ambush, disable their entire hero tree, apply garrote and rupture to only the main target in a 10 target pack, and spam fok without applying caustic

[vale pine]

you need to spend more time applying and managing dots, if we want to hyper optimize

[lucid jackal]

Yeah just juggle bleeds on 8 targets, caustic on main target, deathstalker mark on main target

It's easy

[plush roost]

Real my tank (who is 3907 last season) tried assa and didnt deathmark for 4 minutes trying to maintain bleeds spatter dsm

[warm marlin]

I’ve looked at logs of people playing assa a decent bit who just have 50% uptime on dsm for an entire key

[dawn summit]

i mean, i never struggled with it

[lucid jackal]

You main rogue

You have probably played rogue for 6+ years

[dawn summit]

i played assa maybe 2 tiers out of the time ive played wow

[chrome fern]

your prio target isn't changing, dsm is gonna sit there until you're ready to use it, crimson is 1 button, caustic is as simple as pressing mutilate

[lucid jackal]

Just press mutilate 4head

[karmic harbor]

rogue is too high iq a spec, we need to dumb it down

[lucid jackal]

Just press the button how can it be hard

[chrome fern]

i mean kinda

[warm marlin]

I think subtlety is the easiest of the 3 to maximize in keys ngl. You lose a lot of the nuance of raid of having to think about add spawns or mechanics or what have you and just press cooldowns on cd/dance when there are many mobs. Assa gets like 5 additional layers of complexity compared to raid where it is undoubtably the simplest

[lucid jackal]

Sin in st is literally easier than bm hunter

U just sit there, spam ambush enevnom and use your cds

Sin in aoe gets like 5 additional things to monitor and play around

[quick hornet]

can anyone help me answer why, (for my OH slot) my lower ilvl 665 dagger from last season sims 3% higher than my crafted dagger w/ 675 w/ embellishment?

[vale pine]

what you say is true if you replace maximizing in it and just say "play on a decent level"

but i do think sin has some very cumbersome min/max in aoe

[plush roost]

Is it an agility dagger

[vale pine]

it is why i never rly understood the entire point of the discussion

[quick hornet]

yeah its agi

[quaint lodge]

Link me the sim

[vale pine]

nobody is doubting that both specs can be extremely hard if you min/max every single part of it

[quaint lodge]

Can just post the URL

[quick hornet]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c5aRXY7ZPQ3GWPb3XyXBb9 this?

[quaint lodge]

Yea

[vale pine]

and simplificants can help all specs

[quick hornet]

also can we use dungeon slice as sub

[plush roost]

Dslice good

[vale pine]

outlaws kir is not that simple either

[chrome fern]

all i was ever arguing was againt sin being a busy spec in aoe, and i guess alot disagree with me, but i still don't feel that way, i'm not gonna keep arguing about it though

[keen dome]

What's going on here

[plush roost]

Well nobody m3ntioned outlaw cause its just by far the most difficult of the 3 specs haha

[quick hornet]

big cleabe

[quaint lodge]

Outlaw just doesnt have competition in the conversation

[limpid sage]

normal scenario wdym

[quaint lodge]

LOL

[lilac stag]

Did you craft a dagger instead of a Stabber?

[quaint lodge]

27 diff conditions, 19 rules, and it all changes on the actual situation

kill me

[quick hornet]

everforged stabber

[quaint lodge]

Its an agi dagger

[vale pine]

and it will absolutely get a change

[pure jay]

after 20 years of rogue, sub is the most annoying spec to play well on

[vale pine]

its the only spec that is confirmed

everything else is just mood before we get official statements

[lucid jackal]

Sub is so easy

It's fun

Best it's ever been

[vale pine]

we can fight about who has the most bugs or minmaxes, or what you think is the easiest/hardest

[quick hornet]

crafted weapon has more dps and higher agi since its 675 vs 665 but still its a large difference

[keen dome]

It's purple, too

[chrome fern]

could it be embellishment cookery

try it without an embellish

or replace your neck

[lucid jackal]

Sin st = easy
Sub st = medium
Outlaw st = hard

Sin aoe = hard
Sub aoe = medium
Outlaw aoe = hard

[quick hornet]

but is this the sim fucking up? surely an embellish wouldnt make me lose 3% dmg

[warm marlin]

Ye this is perfect list

[keen dome]

I'd try simming it on Dungeon slice or something and not an 8 target patchwerk sim

[quick hornet]

on it boss

[dawn summit]

sin in st is actually so funny

[lilac stag]

rogue compared to everything else: impossible

[quaint lodge]

This is because you did not sim correctly I believe

[dawn summit]

straight up the most braindead shit ever

[quaint lodge]

I just took a closer look at it

I dont think you picked an offhand for your dagger LOL

You just picked the main hand and then forgot to actually input a different off hand

[quick hornet]

yep. im a moron

thanks fellas

[quaint lodge]

No worries, we've all been there

[pure jay]

would love any/all feedback you have the bandwidth to give on my log post, I struggle with the spec more then I use to

[vale pine]

so outlaw is the hardest spec always

haha

[warm marlin]

to play perfectly ya

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/what-you-sure-you-sure-about-that-dog-watching-gif-26139783

[warm marlin]

Or near perfect

[lilac stag]

ever since acrobatic strikes was deleted outlaw is impossible

[vale pine]

true

[dawn summit]

i think 1fth outlaw might be the most punishing and unnecessarily difficult iteration of any spec in the game ever

[vale pine]

bro

if you make a mistake on sub

you do literally 0 damage

you do one mistake on outlaw

[dawn summit]

if you make a mistake on 1fth you do no damage for the rest of the pull

[warm marlin]

The mistake has to be catastrophic to do 0 damage

On sub

[dawn summit]

genuinely

1 or 2 bad ps casts

kills your pull

[vale pine]

its very easy to make big mistakes on sub

[keen dome]

Sub's the hardest because I'm not very good at it so hah beat that

[vale pine]

i saw enough people who reroll from outlaw or sin

that i know sub is anything but easy

[keen dome]

I think they can all be difficult for different reasons. I absolutely find Outlaw the hardest of the three by a huge margin, but part of that is lack of practice.

[chrome fern]

the intricacies and difficulty of sub is also tied into the encounter itself. there is far less concern for other specs, sub you have to both know when your cd will be and when you should send it. which is a struggle for some

[vale pine]

exactly

everyone will think of diffrent things as hard

[keen dome]

Yeah

It's why I think complexity is a better measurement

[chrome fern]

the current raid fights have made it kinda smooth, in terms of just naturally lining up with sub, but there are one or 2 outliers

[keen dome]

Someone can still find Assassination ST hard even though it is mechanically simple. Or find Sub relatively easy even though it's mechanically complex, etc.

[pure jay]

i "like" sub on soul hunters/saladbar

despise it on araz

[quaint lodge]

Took a look at your log, gave you some feedback

[vale pine]

subtlety has the most game knowledge requirement of all of them and needs skill to adjust dynamically
assassiantion is the most blueprint spec we have and you can probably just plan everything beforehand
outlaw is the most spamy spec we have and requires, even tho small, but fast adjustments
All have their own challenges to overcome

[weary tree]

Which living mass we hitting on deminsi p1?

[pure jay]

ill look after this key, thanky ou greatly

[weary tree]

Mythic obv

[chrome fern]

sub on early prog H saldar was some of the most fun ive had, despite having to hold cd's for maybe 1 min

[lucid jackal]

None of them

[weary tree]

Just hit deminsi?

And itll hit all of em?

[lucid jackal]

Nope

It won't hit all of them

[warm marlin]

the ranged mass on the second set might need help depending on your comp

i dance that one

[weary tree]

But otherwise just full demensi and cba the rest?

[plush roost]

Buddy ret paladin is right there okay?

[foggy egret]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[plush roost]

My side is so giga i dont even flurry the mass because it dies too fast xdddd

[warm marlin]

Yeah I don’t cleave the melee one for first or third set either

I full sent the third melee add once and it was 60% ahead

Probably a bad idea

[plush roost]

Yeah first 2 im not allowed to touch, third is fine cause 2mins come up and it catches up quick

Its actually pretty funny, every pull left front mass is 50% ahead

[rustic heath]

What flask and weapon buff does subs use?

[plush roost]

And then 5 seconds later they all die at the same time

Pog?

Ironclaw whetstone/wax and alch chaos/versa

[lilac stag]

Mana Oil & Wax maybe slightly better

[chrome fern]

i just use mana oil and alchemical chaos

[lilac stag]

Have to sim it

[chrome fern]

cause that's what sin wants and fk buying seperate consumes

[lilac stag]

Consumable Input pinned in #tc-research

[left ledge]

Just play for your raid team, if you need more damage on specific sets swap to them, otherwise just flurry off boss

Sub isn’t great for those adds in p1

Your job is platforms and p3 burn basically

You can do decent boss dam in p1 but it is practically worthless now that you’re going to be holding dps

[tidal beacon]

when in shadow dance do you build with shuriken storm?

[left ledge]

!storm

[weary tree]

I see ye

[left ledge]

Fk

What’s the command

[vale pine]

never

[left ledge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

or well

^ only for this optimization

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[left ledge]

Oooh aoe

Is there a help command

[tidal beacon]

yeah talking about aoe packs

[left ledge]

Nah I meant the command

Read number 2 in !coup and the entirety of !aoe

That will answer your question on storm

[plush roost]

Theres a small part of me that is cooking pressing only sec tec storm slice n dice and symboms on p1

And having a bajillion stacks on platforms

Is it good? Hell no?

[left ledge]

Stacks of

[plush roost]

Funny

[left ledge]

What

[plush roost]

Hella ya

Supercharger and disorienting 8)

[left ledge]

The self grief gameplay

[maiden oar]

i do a symbols sectech at end of p1 to farm 14 stacks

[plush roost]

I dont actually know disorienting stacks past the 2

[maiden oar]

but im not predisorie ting

[warm marlin]

thought about this too

[left ledge]

I think it goes to 3

[plush roost]

100% but like p1 dps is actually fake

[maiden oar]

i probably could predisorient

but i want to make coup

[left ledge]

I mean if you play it normally

[maiden oar]

so i backstab to make coup

[plush roost]

Were currently holding dps for 50 seconds

[left ledge]

You want to build coup before you fly

So you naked Sectec into stabs and symbol for supercharge anyways

[plush roost]

Yeah

[left ledge]

And you have Sectec back when you reach there

[maiden oar]

oh we dont hold we just push at 2:35 or so

[left ledge]

So you can’t really game it more

[plush roost]

Im just cooking to go evwn further BEYOND

[warm marlin]

if you skip second flag you could probably have the giga hardmode 7 supercharger stacks

i already have 4 from skipping the dance after second flag

[plush roost]

Yep

Same

[warm marlin]

hold dps pov

[plush roost]

4 super 4(?) Disorienting coup ready 14 sht

[maiden oar]

does predisorient give me alot on platform or not really

[plush roost]

Wheeee

[maiden oar]

since icd is reset after flying

[warm marlin]

its really not that much

[maiden oar]

oh ok

[warm marlin]

technically you gain a bit by having one stack

[plush roost]

Its just consistency but not too big

[maiden oar]

im just doing the dance after flag w/ forge to keep killtime consistent

bc ive been doing it

[warm marlin]

but you don't need both, because you only cast 2 builders before sectec on plat1

and the new sectec overwrites the old 2nd predisorient

[maiden oar]

and we probably should push same time as we have been

[warm marlin]

and since coup is already ready you're mainly gaining the unseen blade damage itself and 3% finisher damage

[maiden oar]

yea makes sense

[plush roost]

Oh speaking of

Does anyone know what order the unseen gets consumed in? The natural ready unseen first or the disorienting first?

As if i have unseen ready AND disorient ready

[quick hornet]

black powder is 4 targets? wasn't it 7 in season 2? i thought thats what the shindigg video said

[maiden oar]

they buffed bp

[plush roost]

Values changed

[quick hornet]

oh hell yeah

[warm marlin]

disorient is first

erm

i think

[maiden oar]

i think on platform 2 im going to become the devil and not coup for the 2nd voidwarden and bp instead so i can come into amp with coup guaranteed

[warm marlin]

that might actually make this not true now that I think about it I know FOR SURE that if you sectec, wait 20s for natural ub, then backstab, you consume one of the predisorient

[strong ore]

do you need FW up on four targets to BP?

[maiden oar]

idk if thats too evil but i dont think i can guarantee coup for amp unless i play it like that

[warm marlin]

and not the natural one

but it might be dependent on the order in which they proc

[plush roost]

Yeah i only ask cause when im preramping i want 3-4 escalating so i dont wanna sectec early

Otherwise im sitting on 2 with predisorient yuck

[warm marlin]

ive been sectecing at 3 escalating since i didnt think the second predis mattered much

let me run a test

[maiden oar]

actually hmm

if i can consistently enter the dance for 2nd conquerors cross on platform 2 with coup and i coup first thing and i dance kinda early

[plush roost]

Its just IF it eats the natty one first then u can sectec on 2 and still backstab and keep 2 stacks of disorienting

[maiden oar]

do i get another coup for amp

i feel like this is possible

[plush roost]

Wdym amp? Like p3?

[maiden oar]

yeah

[plush roost]

Youll always have it

[maiden oar]

i dont always have it for p3 if i send coup on the voidwarden

[left ledge]

You hold on pargoth for winds right

[plush roost]

Cause youre preramping after second nullbinder

[maiden oar]

but i havent been pooling coup for that dance which is maybe wrong

[left ledge]

You should be able to pre build coup stacks

[plush roost]

Oh youre hitting voidwardens eh let your dps do that

The second nullbinders spawn and u just storm bp and stack ur ramp

[maiden oar]

so i usually get coup during that dance and spend it to kill void guy

[plush roost]

Then go kaboom dimmy

[left ledge]

I dance four times I think on pargoth, the last dance is with second adds and then I just hold that coup and build

[maiden oar]

and then no new coup for amp

[maiden oar]

yeah i was considering this

but i also think

[warm marlin]

this is literally the set we have the most problem with across both platforms

[maiden oar]

if i pool coup for the dance on 2nd nullbinders and voidwarden and sectech after 2nd coup

[left ledge]

I mean you kinda have to bp because you get out of melee

[maiden oar]

then thats 2x disorienting and 1x regular eb

and i probably can get the 4th before winds

but idk if thats consistent

[plush roost]

Interesting were currently having issues with living but not damage.

[warm marlin]

eats predisorient first

[plush roost]

Rup

[warm marlin]

regardless of order

[plush roost]

Rip

[maiden oar]

yeah 2nd nullbinder set is also our most troublesome one

[left ledge]

Yeah pretty sure you can only have 3 stacks

[maiden oar]

so i feel hesitant to not coup there

[left ledge]

1 natty and 2 sectec

[warm marlin]

the idea was sectecing very early and just using the natural 20s ub to slowly get coup ready without wasting predisorient

but its not possible (probably a good thing)

[left ledge]

Yeah it just eats it

No avoiding that

That’s prob why we can’t stack past 3

Because the sectec ones are prio

It also kinda makes you want to consume the stacks asap

[maiden oar]

i was thinking of 2x dance w/ flag -> 1x dance early on 2nd add set -> symbols and bs spam to get 14 sht

since i should get 3x symbols into p3 that way

[left ledge]

Because I think if you have 3 stacks ready your 20 sec cd doesn’t start until you go through the last stack right

[plush roost]

anyway fellas

am i cooking?

[maiden oar]

dunno if the extra dance is possible

could try

but i feel like i gotta do the add dance early to get enough pool time

[left ledge]

For dim?

[plush roost]

nah for m+ haha

[left ledge]

Oh

Looks ok tbh

[plush roost]

Im ripping it in someones poor 18

will come back with results

[left ledge]

I would go DD over first dance if you’re never gonna proc it though

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/madea-tyler-perry-crazy-maniac-evil-gif-1800643111352003180

[left ledge]

Depends on key ig

[plush roost]

dd?

[left ledge]

That build makes me think of floodgate

Deeper daggers

[plush roost]

oh deeper

cant

its gated

[left ledge]

Oh

Rip

[plush roost]

thought about tornado for tfd

but ehhh

TFD kinda insaneo in m+

[left ledge]

Yeah if you can proc it

Pretty nice

Floodgate is really nice for tfd

Forced downtime

[lilac pendant]

Im parsing rly low and im not sure what im missing. Feels bad

[short aurora]

posting a log would probably help

[lilac pendant]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cpjw8hJy2CHaVgDv?fight=14&type=damage-done&modal=fight-selection

[short aurora]

thats not even a kill

[lilac pendant]

thats what it tilts me even more

[short aurora]

you dont get all your globals in your dance

!global

idk what command was

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[charred kestrel]

why the 2 BPs before you second set of CDs?

[mint violet]

Another thing I am missing is threat in nameplatekai

[short aurora]

to save coup i would assume

[charred kestrel]

thought you would just not spend CPs n let it build before cds?

[short aurora]

ye thats what i do aswell

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short aurora]

not having symbols for your second dance in your 4th cds cursed aswell

[charred kestrel]

your second dance in second set of CDs seems to be slow

[short aurora]

and

where the fuck is cold blood

[charred kestrel]

lotta down time

[lilac pendant]

i think that was a bomb

with walls

[mental kettle]

hey guys

im raiding on sub again and im kinda struggling with the timings on araz

im the soaker

[placid hornet]

What is the best way to Sim for dungeons?

[mental kettle]

any tips on the timings when you are on soaker duty?

[steep loom]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[sacred gull]

hey guys quick question, can I cloak of shadows on araz soak ?

if yes I can soak 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ? and I COS on 2nd ?

[mental kettle]

you can cloak 1st and 3rd

press cloak with less than 1s

and u can soak 2nd normally

[sacred gull]

ok

[mental kettle]

as in less than 1s on the cast

if u cloak within 1s of the ability going off you totally immune it

otherwise u get debuff even with cloak

[sacred gull]

ok

[mental kettle]

im struggling with the cds on this boss idk

[sacred gull]

I saw people holding the 1 min 30 burst on pull

[magic trail]

Are you supposed to be waiting like 1 second after you get to dimensius platform to use shadowstrike?

[mighty citrus]

why does the sim tell me to switch the places of the gems? should not make a difference or am i missing something? currently the meta gem is in my neck

[lavish rose]

the position does not matter

[mighty citrus]

thought so, was just wondering, why it is doing this

[lavish rose]

because you set it to replace all

it doesnt respect your current placement

though it prolly does make sense to have your meta gem in that helm you will never replce lol

[warm marlin]

it puts the blasphemite in the first place in the array

helmet is slot number one

it doesnt make any difference

[steel jolt]

it puts the blasphemite in the necklace or else it gets the masterful sapphire again

[north schooner]

i'd gem me

[still sapphire]

I have an ability usage question that i have not been able to find an understandable outline to in any guides

so you go through your initial opener and use your big cds.
after i have used SoD and Shadow dance the first time, i do not fully understand when to use them again still

especially after shadowblades buff finishes

[quaint lodge]

Generally speaking

youll use two more shadow dances after your first flag

then one after ur second flag only when

Based on fight timings you change generally when you want to use the shadow dwnce

So usualy with an add spawn or whenevrr in pure st that you wont get mechanics

[still sapphire]

assuming that there are enough high hp targets, do i just rip another shadow dance as soon as its 12 second buff drops?

[quaint lodge]

Im unsure which 12 second buff youre referring to

[still sapphire]

the buff that the shadow dance ability givs you

[fallow nimbus]

You use dance when you have all tools available. The tools are sod, sectec and dance charges

You do that as long as you can guarantee that you have 2 of everything for your major cds

[ebon terrace]

Probably this question gets answered 100 times a day, but I find myself often using Secret Technique in M+ without dance, so I use a SOD for it. Am I doing it wrong?

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

You can dry sectec in aoe before cds

[ebon terrace]

So if I have SOD and Secret Technique up but my flag is like 40 seconds away and I dont have a dance, what do I do?

Oh just dry it?

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah, it means you were too aggressive with dance but don't waste a sod

[still sapphire]

how is it wasteful to use sod? i feel like i always have one or two up. i've only practiced on dummies so far but its taking me a few days to really understand cd usage in combination with other abilities

[fallow nimbus]

Subs dmg outside cds isn't that great but it relies on using stuff together

[ebon terrace]

Does it? Coz dance gets 0.5 cd red per ccp and Secret gets 1 second and I feel like that makes me get way more secret techniques than dances

[fallow nimbus]

You want 2 for cds

You can't get that spamming dance on cd

[still sapphire]

so you use your initial dance for opener, and one more as it drops after the 12 seconds it gives you, and don't touch it again until blade is off cd again?

[fallow nimbus]

If you are about to cap on dance charges you ofcourse use 1

Dance without tfd is 8 seconds so tfd 12+8 covers all of blades

[still sapphire]

tfd?

[fallow nimbus]

The first dance

[still sapphire]

and what about symbols? do i just spam those every time i have sectec or coup?

i apologize if these are silly questions but its really just not connecting fo rme

[warm marlin]

last section

is the basics

[fallow nimbus]

Sub is kinda limited by sod in its cd usages

Without sod we could dance with sectec pretty much on cd but keep some for blades

[meager merlin]

is the disc belt still bis or the belt from boe AH mythic / belt from 1st boss on mythic

[still sapphire]

well its better than target swapping to just apply dots, or gambling for good procs... lol, rogue is such a weird feeling class to learn. i'm an arcane mage main

[upper narwhal]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[meager merlin]

i see a lot of rogues still use disc

[still sapphire]

murlok.io is a good website to track what the top 50 players of your class are using, disc is still widely used for most dps i believe

[fallow nimbus]

Sub is pretty much melee arcane mage except we aren't allowed the big funnel, stack cds and win

[still sapphire]

this is good, thank you

[still sapphire]

interestin

so for M+, is all our multi target damage in spreading rupture, and spamming black powder then?

thats how it seeems

[swift hollow]

so we always want double dance up for when we use flag / bladE?

[vale pine]

thats subtlety cooldown management tl;dr

[mental kettle]

OK

I think i am a bot

on araz kill

icant

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/YjXPQvbdfGaBn2xg?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=10

[karmic harbor]

are you doing adds behind puddle strat

[mental kettle]

yes

and im in every soak

[karmic harbor]

every soak? lmfao

[mental kettle]

so idk

[karmic harbor]

do you not have ranged players or what

[mental kettle]

maybe someone can look at my log

and help me xdd but the setup isnt ideal

i always have to move out during dance / blades

on first set lol

[north schooner]

hmmge

[karmic harbor]

ye adds behind strat is aids

cold blooding in the first dance is kinda troll

[north schooner]

do you not have the spam protection macro for sod

[mental kettle]

i thought i did

and CB i should have on different keybind

as in not macro it the lazy way

[north schooner]

you also don't BS for danse

[mental kettle]

BS?

[karmic harbor]

backstab

[north schooner]

backstab

[mental kettle]

you mean i dont press it during dance?

i should be going in full cp

[karmic harbor]

this is rly bad

you didnt get 2 dances in flag/blades

[north schooner]

this here must be panic the order is off

[mental kettle]

this was during damage amp

i couldnt hold dance or thing wasnt gonan die

and it destroyed my whole amp phase cuz shit wasnt ready

iirc

maybe

or it was diff pull idk

shit is cooked (im cooked)

[still sapphire]

is it even possible to sod and dance during flag/blades a second time if your haste isn't high enough?

or at a baseline should it be feasible no matter what your stats are?

[lucid jackal]

Haste doesn't lower gcd

Haste has 0 affect on the rotation

[mental kettle]

im misplaying my dance sends so much for sure

[shadow lance]

Tell you don't know how spec works without telling me you don't know how spec works

[mental kettle]

and im sending sec tec before adds are on top of it / voulnerable

because i gotta go with soaks

idek

2% parse

prob should just stick to tanking in m+ this might not be the play

[north schooner]

a kill is a kill

[shadow lance]

You just doing single target damagestbh

You

My log for exemple

[mental kettle]

yeah everything was going into boss funnel

[shadow lance]

I didn't press a single bp

[mental kettle]

you mean i didnt press bp or

[shadow lance]

You don't get what I mean

[mental kettle]

nope

[shadow lance]

You get low parse cuz you putting your damages when no adds around boss

You first cd set do nearly 0 damages on adds

[mental kettle]

i cant

i have to mov to soak

and then im on dpsing echo

i can send 1 sec tech just as adds spawns if i get coup cdrs

but they're immune

lmao

[shadow lance]

Why don't you cd pull then?

[mental kettle]

i was looking at another log before it and i assumed this was a better timing for damage amp

[shadow lance]

Bro

[mental kettle]

but i didnt think that they kept the rogue on main target

xd

[shadow lance]

Press cd on pull and hold later

Better than press cd and not hitting anything

Then you press dance on adds spawn

[mental kettle]

yeah good point thansk

thanks

[random comet]

CD on pull is ok, since your next dance/sods mini bursts line up well with add spawns still - you just don’t get the big full cd burst on the first set at 30s but honestly most dps seem to be holding for that set anyway and they get blasted in like 3 seconds

[oak hearth]

Just opened Emissary of War box, is this a W pull or naw?

[sacred yarrow]

oh man thats BIG STONKS! congrats!!!!!

[random comet]

I got a belt

[oak hearth]

i just look at bloodmallet holy fuck

lmfaooo0

[random comet]

It’s probably the single most impactful individual item in the season so yes it’s quite the W

[crisp idol]

!Wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[crisp idol]

so sublety is pretty much all around her main CD's? since im doing 0 dmg out of my cds

like dps under tank

on m+

cuz when im out of cd, i can pretty much only shuriken storm & black powder?

[shadow lance]

Spread ruptures and yes, Storm/BP

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[crisp idol]

yeah, trying to get into sublety since i feel little weak cause of the downtime

[wispy crystal]

Hey all, for mythic Loomithar progression. Are you guys sending dances on the webs?

Then blades / flag to pump the boss ?

We are still at phase 1 and trying to get better at killing the webs

Tried assas but bleeds do tickle damage to the webs compared to sub sTec and Evis

[empty plume]

fatebound assass never swaps, can't really justify it (except a rupture snipe)

if your group is struggling to kill webs you could swap to them

probably outside your 1m30s

kinda depends how much you're willing to sacrifice and whether it is actually helping the raid in the long term, or if you have other people who could do the damage more easily/losslessly but aren't

the reality is you can send nothing, anything, or everything on the webs - if it gets the kill then fuck it... raid-wide optimization is complicated and expects skill of your teammates

specficially your coup must be on a Fazed target

generic M Loom advice:

• you can shadowstep to the outer ring to break a web tether if you get selected
• you can cloak the beam soak/debuff

[wispy crystal]

that's great advice. stepping to the outer ring wont kill you right?

[wispy crystal]

yeah makes sense, for progression im willing to send a dance to help kill web tangles faster

usually im top DPS in raid on the tangles if i send dance

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[empty plume]

yeah you get webbed, sucked to the middle, then you can step the outer web and run to the edge of the room to drop it

rather than waiting for the webs to die while you take ramping damage

[trail epoch]

If tangles don't die - blame warlocks/MM hunters/placeholder for any ranged... Any leftover DMG from dance you can redirect to tangles if they get too close.
And hold you CDs for the DMG amp at the start of p2

[wispy crystal]

great suggestion let me try this out

didnt realize you can step to webs without 1 shoting yourself

[wispy crystal]

right now my entire raid is swapping including melee

[tidal marsh]

Then run

run far away

[trail epoch]

Sure, but swapping doesn't mean you have send to dance there. In my raid melee were doing 1/3 DMG of a ranged to tangles

Except for arcane mages

[turbid edge]

how do we use ritual forge with netherprism in M+?

ritual forge with flag and then netherprism with 2nd sectech?

[short radish]

you gotta hold backpedal

so you dont walk into the web

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[wispy crystal]

oh makes sense 😊

gosh is it even worth switching out my pacemaker for a heroic lily to get double-on use for a 0.1% DPS increase ><

feels like so much effort

[short radish]

no

who cares about 0.1% gain

[tame terrace]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[wispy crystal]

Do people use the backstab dance macro?

Find it very awkward to use. My challenge is also if the boss doesn't have find weakness up. Backstabbing may not apply it

Feels better to manual press backstab.

Or just dance - Shadowstrike to apply find weakness

[prisma minnow]

Do i send Cold Blood with 1st or 2nd sectech during cds? With ritual forge

[pine mirage]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/94TUiSoELstYHN8YFqM6zX

Looking at cast times for sim.. sim uses prism on cd even with low stacks. is that the play?

I dont have 2nd trinket just yet

[plush roost]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ygBwdt27R6jpPM48?fight=last&type=damage-done

Someone wanna tell me why the best 18 has a death as the rogue presses flag?

On 18 stack prism?

(Humble brag shitpost just wanna share my lil 100 parse hehe)

[steel jolt]

nice job

[hazy breach]

The sim you linked isnt casting prism until 3 minutes

[turbid edge]

if lily and forge are both 1.5 mins, how is the prism+forge and prism+lily usage different? shouldnt they both just be lily or forge first, then prism, then lily or forge?

[plush roost]

May as well have a lil agi on your first cast than non

[hazy breach]

Forge is 2 minutes

[turbid edge]

oh. oops ty!

[lilac pendant]

Who the f is Akaari

[short radish]

we dont talk about it

if you know you know

[dusk stone]

He who must not be named

[rigid remnant]

whats the common way to sim m+ for subs, does the apl support mdt routes?

[hazy breach]

Yes but they typically take like 20x as long and give the same results as dslice

So we mostly use dslice

[shrewd lantern]

didnt take you for a stinky tea user

[flint jay]

how you guys ccharge the Unyielding Netherprism charges before a mplus?

[kind dust]

Does black powder originate from the target or from myself?

[sick jolt]

can we use lily with netherprism?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[frank narwhal]

I've heard that sending coup at lower cp like 2 is fine, why is that? Does the "act as if 5 more cp" not go above your maximum 7?

And if indeed is the case, why can't we send other builders at 4cp with supercharger, like Sec?

I would think a 7+5 (+3 with supercharger) CP would be crazy good compared to sending at lower?

[hazy breach]

It does go above 7

But in the case that you are at low CP, you are not in dance

Thus its gonna take you a long ass time to get to 6+ cp

[frank narwhal]

Is it to do with not losing out on potential unseen blades, or not having time to build to natty 6+ because it runs out?

Or both I guess?

Right gotcha. Would you send a low CP (2-3) Coup as the last GCD inside dance, or would just instead build it more and send after dance?

Not sure if it snapshots dance dmg increase

[hollow snow]

ah, you seek the very secret technique

[flint jay]

D:

[toxic swan]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[mental shore]

yo

for make sure the second tecnich is rng or like i play bad and ggs?

inside first dance

[chrome fern]

you should never have this low cp in dance

[chrome fern]

it relied on resets to be done

[lucid jackal]

its rng but it doesnt matter

Its not "gg" if you miss it

[tribal blade]

kinda sad, we killed the boss right as every cd came up

but i'll take a purple parse on 1st kill

[chrome fern]

you were......

[tribal blade]

true

[plush roost]

Been playing tea in floodgate eco halls priory gambit. The mastery goes quite hard in AoE compared to coldblood

Kinda like it on dawnbreaker too but eh

Tea gud what can i say

[plush roost]

Weve been killing the boss while theyre in the air so last 20 seconds im afk doing nothing really good boss hehe

[chrome fern]

i'm slowly improving my sub parses on heroic, just need to wait for adds on araz, and hope for good kill time on soul hunters

although, there is something to be said about never improving araz

[short radish]

nice

[tribal blade]

AMAZING BOSS

does feint work on the beams on saladbar

[obtuse shard]

I believe no if u play cheat death

[tribal blade]

oh shit elusiveness is the play here huh

just checked WCL

[obtuse shard]

Wait by beam you mean the claw or the orb

[tribal blade]

the orbs yeah

[obtuse shard]

Oh yeah that one yes, i got hit by it with feint up and survived

[tribal blade]

so does base feint not work on claws?

i wish i could see a list of what base feint works on in the fight

[obtuse shard]

Yeah claw doesn’t work

[tribal blade]

ok good to know

so elus is better

[chrome fern]

!defensives

crap whats the command

[tribal blade]

no idea haha

[chrome fern]

there is a list i think

[tribal blade]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[tribal blade]

got it

[chrome fern]

there's a second one

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[azure mauve]

so what happens if you dont get autumn on dimmy @lucid jackal