subtlety

[autumn flame]

Did they fix atrophic poison stacking?

[shrewd lantern]

Pretty sure this barely gets tested because who tf has 2 rogues.

[wary plover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

according to the man himself (during rwf) said it was fixed over 6 months ago

[willow mantle]

im seeing a lot of high level m+ players take "The Rotten" on the final row, rather than opting for a point in finality, can anyone explain why?

[glossy halo]

just saw the Coupe WA. Can i accidantly cancel the ability? Do i have to wait till the last strike before i press the next ability?

[tribal blade]

no you cannot cancel coup by pressing another ability

[glossy halo]

thank you!

[lucid jackal]

its more damage

[willow mantle]

gotcha, i figured lol, the wowhead guide recommends something different so i was curious

[willow mantle]

do you decide between vigor/thistle tea vs cold blood on a dungeon by dungeon basis?

[lucid jackal]

tea is more aoe damage, CB is more st damage

Just a value judgement

[willow mantle]

which do you prefer?

[lucid jackal]

I prefer CB

but I dont push keys I just do vault keys lol

Idt any key is being timed based on tea vs CB

[willow mantle]

yeah it seems to be like a 60/40 split for tea vs CB

[lucid jackal]

I just play cb because I play cb In raid

[azure thicket]

the vigor from tea path is nice

but cold blood path also has soothing darkness

if you can remember to use vanish as an extra defensive there

[keen hare]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

sure, can do later

[worthy pulsar]

is it a big dps lost using sword offhand?

[vale pine]

yes

to put it this way

using a green dagger you get from a vendor is already noticable better than any onehand weapon you can use

[worthy pulsar]

oh shit

[short radish]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[short radish]

650 dagger in OH > 720 sword in OH

[pastel rampart]

what if we could offhand pre-nerf gavel 🤔

[mental shore]

thi build for dg its fine?

some issues without macro on main build

[short radish]

bit of whatever but thats probably more useful than wound poison

since you only need WP in 2(?) dungeons

but either way

its also kinda whatever

[unborn geyser]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[unborn geyser]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[unborn geyser]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[willow mantle]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[wispy crystal]

do people use the backstab dance macro?

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[wispy crystal]

do you guys have a seperate bind for shadowblades + trinket?

like just blades without trinket bind?

[chrome fern]

I do

But I also add in symbols and sectec

[willow mantle]

because coup functions as if it consumed 5 extra combo points, does that mean you coup on only 1 cp?

[chrome fern]

No

You coup at normal cp, so you hit big cp coups

[willow mantle]

gotcha, thanks

[limpid sage]

No you send at 1 cp

[chrome fern]

Symbols + coup + 7 cp is a bi mofucker

[limpid sage]

Unless you can make it high cp easily

[wispy crystal]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[chrome fern]

I feel like min maxing coup outside cds shouldn’t be the answer to how to use coup

[limpid sage]

There’s no way you don’t have full cp in cds though

[wispy crystal]

can we just bind netherprism to shadowblades, or is there a more optimal way to use it?

[limpid sage]

So the question only makes sense outside of cds

[limpid sage]

Optimal usage is wherever you can send it stacking with another dmg amp or higher target count

[wispy crystal]

1bs

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[swift coral]

Can s1 explain the coup weakaura?

[tepid trellis]

the bar?

[steady dune]

In general, is it worth it to ask the tank during an M+ to let you get resets in instead of chain pulling for TFD?

[tepid trellis]

if they arent chainning correctly yeah

[lilac stag]

use vanish as well if they can’t be arsed and are 1-2 mob chain pulling.

[steady dune]

yeah theyve been just 1-2 group chain pulling in eco all day for me

but someone in my guild was saying that he heard it wasnt worth it

He's probably playing with better tanks though

I've been using shadowmeld to reset it, but i guess ill toss vanish in as well.

[lilac stag]

TFD is worth it. You’re not doing dmg outside of CDs. It’s just typically not worth slowing down for the rogue when other specs are rolling into the next pack

[steady dune]

Ill stop bothering to ask then, just right before bosses

[upbeat jetty]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[short radish]

@tepid trellis nice guild wr 👍

[tepid trellis]

indeed

[mint violet]

hey, do you know if you can set up nameplatekai to show cast target? i was able to do that with WA using NamePlateTargetFrame , but that is only for your taget, so other mobs will not work

[still depot]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[vale pine]

i haven't played around with weakauras integration of it, i just changed the coloring and some other visual things

[swift coral]

Yes pls

[steep raven]

Can I force sim to use prism on 9 stacks?

[mint violet]

i feel that on high keys it is essential to know what targets are being cast on

[tepid trellis]

just gives a visual representation of when the last possible refund from shadowcraft can happen from coup

[swift coral]

That’s the line at the end of the bar? Safe to cast after it?

[tepid trellis]

yep the tick is the last possible time

and the bar itself is the gcd lockout

[dusk stone]

Before the key starts politely say to the tank you occasionally need stealth but that he can mostly still play his own game

And save vanish for when they chain for tfd

[frigid ingot]

https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/1418748010187198484 if anyone can take a look, would be much appreciated. I find some minor mistakes here and there, but still cant figure out why the big diff

[potent verge]

If i'm still stuck on a 710 offhand, is it worth crafting a 2nd dagger at 720 today? only options might be a belt or a ring

[tepid trellis]

very likely not

offhand is similar stat budget to wrists

so kinda shit

[lean arch]

For taza hardmode is it just ST built or is there a specific build?

[placid crown]

A sub rogue friend crafted the intel dagger instead of the agility one, does she have a possibility to "trade" or stgh ?

[short radish]

shit outa luck

[placid crown]

I guess it means no

[karmic harbor]

Can beg support and they might refund

Was a thing at least in dragonflight

[wanton bay]

why does my 710 dagger sim better to have in off hand rather then my 723 sword?

[tepid trellis]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[tepid trellis]

thats why

[karmic harbor]

Outlaw tax

[wanton bay]

ah thanks

xd

[vale pine]

probably, many players use weakauras for ti

[shadow lance]

Wait there's a coup wa bar ?

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[shadow lance]

Omfg @tepid trellis thanks my 🐐

[near jetty]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[near jetty]

there is 0 sign ups for 13-14+ keys wtf is this game is dead or ppl dont need that key levels anymore xD

[short radish]

13-14 are the trench of key pushing now

[vale pine]

most players are in 10-14 probably

[dreamy badger]

hi hello, how long is coup?

[oblique burrow]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```

[dreamy badger]

is it 1 gcd?

[short radish]

1.2 seconds

[dreamy badger]

kk ty

[short radish]

so 1.2 gcds

[dreamy badger]

perfect

[vale pine]

the gcd is 1.2 sec.
The spell has 3 hits, one immidiatly, one after ~0.4 sec and one after 1 sec

[lilac pendant]

Should i ask by friend to PI me or do I let him PI other people?

[vale pine]

Pi on rogue isn't exactly that good

[queen plinth]

dawnbreaker CB dungeon?

[lilac pendant]

Oh no, im the cuck

I watch him PI my rival on raids, and im loosing the arms race vs a destruction warlock

[hazy breach]

Its usually more dps to PI tanks than to PI sub rogues

[limpid sage]

I wonder if the energy regen from increased haste makes PI more useful outside blades

Though that does also decrease ShT stacks in our burst window

[frigid ingot]

https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/1418748010187198484 if anyone has the time to looka bit over this would highly appreciate.

[queen plinth]

mm hunter and fury warr. would u run CB on dawn or stay tea

[lusty tangle]

!trinket

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[sour granite]

Hey! Can anyone tell what is going on with this log compared to my details? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kN89KwTAXBzjWqv3?fight=1&type=damage-done&source=17
All ability damage seems to match 1:1, except for Secret Tech that is missing ~140M damage in warcraftlogs? I didn't upload the log myself..

(and yes I'm a filthy platform padder)

[vale pine]

!fuu should be added

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[limpid sage]

Sectec is not registered as your dmg if the logger is +100 yards away from you

[lilac pendant]

hunter mark 0.5 XD

[limpid sage]

Also funny seeing Bubbles as pfp - suddenly lots of people using HoN chars

[sour granite]

Oh, that makes sense @limpid sage, logger was on the other platform I guess. Thanks!

HoN enjoyers represent! I've had Bubbles since I made my account hehe

[lilac pendant]

im trying deathstalker for pvp and is the only gimming the 3 finisher make 1 strong evis?

[north schooner]

interesting that skyfury took a nosedive for dslice sub compared to s2

[vale pine]

its insane on st tho

[north schooner]

yup

[karmic harbor]

how do i find the auto tricks tank wa

[frigid ingot]

So, in AOE, should i use both backstab and shuriken storm during dance? (i watched casual and kushh and they keep using it)

[vale pine]

backstab in aoe becomes less relevant

so you don't need to do it, but can

[hazy breach]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short aurora]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[limpid sage]

Any reason(s) this command doesn’t mention holding for 20s if coup is available?

[vale pine]

we did the 20 sec in s2 already

[frigid ingot]

@vale pine so it's mostly (without the minor coup improve), sstrike/ sectech/ sstrike bp/coup?

[vale pine]

you don't need to start dance on low cp, you can start it with a finisher too

[frigid ingot]

if we use araz+pyrism , we alternate between the 2?

[limpid sage]

Yeah but it’s not mentioned in the command :o

[vale pine]

!coup alright, i added it to the first point

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[limpid sage]

Big

[hazy breach]

Idk probably shouldnt even be part of that command, its too long

[vale pine]

ye

[short aurora]

Hide the tech

[vale pine]

its not about hiding, just too much information density

[granite river]

The backstab is for Dance Macabre and the Storm is for find weakness from The Rotten, if you’re playing it

[short aurora]

Idk sub is all about prep than actually playing in comparison to assa/outlaw

I like dense information

To nerd away

[granite river]

As long as the info is findable SOMEWHERE, bc I’m just smart enough to implement it but dumb enough that I can’t cook it up myself

[tender forum]

whats the best WA for keeping track of Netherprism?

anything with sound ques?

[lone halo]

GM gamers

What’s the rule on using black powder over evis in my mythic plus

[wild hornet]

4 targets or more

and no coup

[lone halo]

Ty

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[earnest canyon]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[slate lantern]

What sound queue are you looking for

Like what condition would it make a sound

[short aurora]

18 stacks make a big Jackpot sound

Or the bell sound this Machine makes

https://tenor.com/view/hit-smash-game-power-strength-gif-14502754

[vague schooner]

how do we use forge and prism together?

[placid elk]

you dont

you use forge with first blades, prism with 2nd, forge with 3rd etc

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[limpid sage]

we would if we could

but you can't use double on use at the same time

[vague schooner]

thats what ive meant, how do we use if we have both, ty guys

[limpid sage]

wasn't sure which way you meant

[rocky ocean]

[lone halo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lone halo]

Is there a certain crit % we need to get for M+

Like is there a breakpoint where we want to try and stay at?

[limpid sage]

@tepid trellis have you considered adding combo points=0 and !buff premed as triggers to the coup bar thingy as well?

[vale pine]

nope

[placid elk]

does that cp refund sound wa not work on some refunds?

[vale pine]

unsure if it works on the delayed ones

[lone linden]

doesnt work on the refunds that occur during coup hits

[mint violet]

Would be cool to find some since am struggling with FPS on floodgate

[vale pine]

think thats basically the problem of anything not plater

you either need to use generalized weakauras

or write your own

also why most players won't ever switch off

[lone halo]

Betterblizzplates works good

[vale pine]

they use specific profiles or custom scripts you would need to find alternatives to

[vale pine]

is also a good option, but has the same problem

[placid elk]

i found bbp to be good but if i play assa and filter buffs on target its cpu heavy

[vale pine]

nameplatekai is the best i found so far

as a plater alternative, and it whipes the floor with plater and the popular nameplay addons in terms of performance

but you don't have plater scripts or imports, and some functionality specific to individuals play style might be not there

[lone halo]

I’ll try it

Can you import player scripts into Kai?

Player

Plater

[vale pine]

no

thats what i am saying

[lone halo]

Darn

[vale pine]

if you want plater scripts

there is only plater

or weakauras

[lone halo]

Ya

I see your point now

[vale pine]

plater is a terrible addon when it comes to performance

[lone halo]

Oh, for sure it’s really bad

[vale pine]

but if you heavily use its "weakaura" like scripting

you would need to find weakauras or write lua to have that elsewhere

[sacred gull]

Hey, how many gcd do we expect between first SD and the next ones ? Gonna check logs to see if I need more advanced macros 😬

[vale pine]

you dance back to back in your 90 sec cooldowns

so "No gcd"

[sacred gull]

sry, I meant during SD

[hazy breach]

1 per second

So 8 or 12

[sacred gull]

yes but I saw people saying coup is like 1.2

[hazy breach]

Yes

[vale pine]

yes

you have 8 sec to use a spell

you use coup

[hazy breach]

But that doesnt change that you should be able to use 8 or 12

[placid elk]

in between cds i found sometimes i can squeeze 2 dance symbols sec techs, while somtimes only 1.
is it normal?

[sacred gull]

ok

[vale pine]

on 0

ill break it down

[placid elk]

it used to be 1.2 back in s1

[lone linden]

if you are comfortable with WA's though you can get the refund sound to play, even on the delayed coup refunds

[hazy breach]

Still is

[vale pine]

Time during Shadow Dance:
0 -- secret (1)
1 -- backstab (2)
2 -- coup (3)
3.2 -- storm (4)
4.2 -- coup (5)
5.4 -- strike (6)
6.4 -- evis (7)
7.4 -- strike (8)
8 -- dance ends

[sacred gull]

damn I was always doing backstab first

[hazy breach]

If you are at 0 cp youd backstab first yes

[vale pine]

as you see, there is 0.6 sec of additional room before your dance ends

[placid elk]

damn this is why my timing feels off i thought its 1s

[vale pine]

with backstab first
Time during Shadow Dance:
0 -- backstab (2)
1 -- secret (1)
2 -- strike (8)
3 -- coup (3)
4.2 -- storm (4)
5.2 -- coup (5)
6.4 -- strike (6)
7.4 -- evis (7)
8 -- dance ends

same result, you still have 0.6 sec of buffer

but this is where latency and human reaction time plays a role

and you can, if not careful lose gcds

(one)

[sacred gull]

ok, I am gonna compare with logs then, and maybe add more spellqueue or start diving into specific macros

thanks a lot

it doesn't matter too much to either start with backstab or sec technique rught ?

[lone halo]

No shadowstrike?

[sacred gull]

strike is shadow strike

[lone halo]

Oh mb

I’m like new

[sacred gull]

no worries

[slate lantern]

outlaw traitor

[lone halo]

I thought we opened with strike no?

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/watching-you-eyes-on-you-watch-it-watch-your-back-i-see-you-gif-11048930192030059179

[lone halo]

Hey now

[sacred gull]

no never start with shadow strike during shadow dance window I think

only on pull you hit shadowstrike

[lone halo]

Outlaw is in a bad place. 🥺

[lone halo]

Thanks

[sacred gull]

I mean, you shadow strike as a filler as usual, but never first during a shadow dance, because you use premeditation on backstab

[lone halo]

Sometimes on the dummies 5 pack I can get 20 mil openers and sometimes I’m like 12m. Is this RNG or my bad play. Or both. I can’t believe this spec is as RNG as outlaw

[placid elk]

[lone halo]

Ha

Here we go

[cursive island]

With the annoying delayed refund on coup, is it better to send a shadowstrike at full CP cause of late refund. Or wait a little be sure im not getting a cp refund ?

If it makes any sense lol

[swift cloak]

hey um is there any log analyzer / enjoyer here ?

[left ledge]

You shadowstrike first if you need to apply find weakness to your target too

You don’t want to end up going into a dance where the enemy won’t get FW before you slam eviscerates into them

[lone halo]

Ty that’s helpful

[sacred gull]

I am glad I am getting the right number of GCDs during dances 😅 Now I need to see what else I can do to improve my dps 😂

[swift cloak]

are we saving our energy to never use tea auto ? and Do we limit one tea to one blades ?

[placid elk]

i macroed it to dance so i can save a keybind

im already over the limit with 2 on use

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[rancid verge]

any idea why my sub sims so low on pure single target compared to assa?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hdkPeirVv4BPVHvQxGG4ms

sin sims like 300k higher even with this gear, which has suboptimal stats

[wet echo]

because sub isn't a primarily ST spec?

we're quite literally the worst spec in the game on fractillus

[rancid verge]

oh, okay

[vale pine]

wasting refunds is not good, but if you play inefficient because you don't want to waste them you lose all benefits from optimizations

[rancid verge]

shame, i love the playstyle in m+ a lot

but raiding feels bad

because of the low numbers

[wet echo]

luckily, we're good on literally all the relevant bosses

[vale pine]

^

at least for another week or so before we fall off even more

[rancid verge]

okay, thanks :3

[lucid jackal]

The spec is good in raid

There's more to raiding than st patchwork dps. There's a reason everybody played sub for prog, and not sin

[solar monolith]

Whats the recommended % of haste for sub in keys?

[rancid verge]

yeah, makes sense

[placid elk]

0%

[lucid jackal]

0%

[solar monolith]

Perfect

[rancid verge]

i was wondering if it was a gearing wrong issue or me not knowing the correct cd windows issue

and it seems to be the latter

[lucid jackal]

The spec is bad on pure st patchwork 5 minutes

It should feel better in turbo boost where bosses just explode

[rancid verge]

makes sense

one more question, for m+

ik rupturing mobs that will die quickly is a big no-no but

if a tank pulls a pack that has lets say 10 mobs that can all survive throughout the rupture window

and my cds are up

[charred kestrel]

spread rup while tank gathers

[rancid verge]

how many of them do i want to rupture before going into cds?

[vale pine]

as much as reasonable

you don't want to delay your cooldowns if mobs are gathered

[rancid verge]

okay

so when they're gathered i want to go into cds, even if they gathered super quickly and f.e. i only have 4 ruptures up

[charred kestrel]

can always thro some out after cds if they are still healthy enough

[rancid verge]

gotchu

thanks

[minor sorrel]

its like arcane vs frost mage

[vale pine]

its more complicated

[charred kestrel]

not really sure that comparison fits

[vale pine]

^ if you look at bosses, you can get a rough idea how the spec performs relatively

and you see, the pure single target fights are actually where we are rly bad off, usually being close to last

but they are not the difficult fights

if you look even closer on logs

you see assassiantion is played more than subtlet by a small amount in mythic

[olive jacinth]

Just got dimensius trinket out of weekly dungeon quest. why couldnt it be ritual forge

[vale pine]

this is also because of this

because 4/6 of the early fights are good for assasiantion

or lets say better than subtlety

[placid elk]

a bid sad being that low on soulhunters

[azure thicket]

reclears be like that though

[real panther]

I will say it. balancing a game like wow is hard, yes... But blizzard do a "ok" work at best. glass ceiling should not be a thing imho

kinda tired of playing russian roulette every patch

[vale pine]

i think its just difficult because we have so many metrics

and still don't know the full picture

[real panther]

ok, but we all know people focus only on some

[vale pine]

like one example is a very common discussion we had in this channel

see, the spec is typically only good for 2-4 weeks a patch and then becomes completely unplayed due to tuning most of the time

and many times, just like you see this tier

its not the entire raid the spec is good at but specific fights it is good especially during early progress

now, depending on who you ask

this means the spec is good/op

[lucid jackal]

The spe didn't feel that bad on prog, I think a lot of it comes down to kill timers at this point

[vale pine]

or the opposite

[lucid jackal]

Like look at this kill timer this week

[vale pine]

so, is tuning good for something thats good for 1/4 of a patch and unused after

or is tuning bad ?

and this is the baseline problem

[lucid jackal]

Sub will be very broken in a few weeks of turbo boost lol

[vale pine]

subtlety this season has some benefits it did not have s1/2

[lucid jackal]

Despite sub being "bad ST" its still one of the most insane ST burst specs in the game, especially in the opener

[vale pine]

mainly a strong tier set and 2 op trinkets

[lucid jackal]

If kill timers turn into 3:30 or whatever, the spec is going to obliterate

[real panther]

well, yeah sure, but I don't think it's a good thing, because they make it so complicated, that us (for exemple) ar good at what? multi-target fight, but in those our "advantage" is not that big compare to top chart specs from other classes. If only we were destroying the chart on these 2-3 bosses, i'll agree, but its not even the case. there are classe that are "meh" and no matter how perfect you play it you wont be above "okish"

[vale pine]

yes

[lucid jackal]

IDk what point ur trying to make

Sub is good at doing the most aoe burst in the entire game, and also abusing vulnerability phases, which 2 of the hardest bosses of the raid ask you to solve for

[granite river]

Tremendous cleave as well

[vale pine]

our cleave is not good

look at soul hunters

[void hound]

well you dont play rogue, let alone sub, if being meta is your goal
thats just one of the things you have to accept
that being said, sub is pretty decent this tier since the spec shines on the two most relevant bosses

[granite river]

Yeah true

[stoic pier]

!logs

[lucid jackal]

"You dont play sub if being meta is your goal" its only been the meta prog spec for the past 6 years

[granite river]

It’s good on saladbar and dimmy tho no?

[lone halo]

Outlaw really shines in that fight.

[vale pine]

huh?

[real panther]

but in the end, on the stats you find on warcraftlogs, we are at the bottom (like others) and there's a cap we can't surpasses, and every patch its the same, some classes are bottom no matter what they do.

[void hound]

completely missing the point

[lucid jackal]

Explain to me why the fuck I would care about "WCL stats page"

and not actually understanding how the game works

[real panther]

if we are talking about raid, meta should not be a thing, that is my point... this is ridiculous, there's 20+ player in a raid

[lucid jackal]

Nobody who actually is good at the game is drafting comps, and evaluating spec strength based on the WCL stats page

[real panther]

"have you chosed the right toon bro? no? kek get rekt go on alt"

[azure thicket]

kinda wanna try ret arcane in keys for funsies this week

[lucid jackal]

the WCL stats page exists in like, medium players head as this metric that matters literally at all

Nobody should be looking at it. It's completely worthless

[azure thicket]

did a bunch of warlock keys and they're rarer than sub rogues tbh

[lucid jackal]

It tells you nothing useful

[real panther]

the 10% players? who cares? this game is made for them? 😄

[vale pine]

wcl is also obfuscated

[hazy breach]

It does matter though, for the sole reason that blizzard usually tunes around it

[vale pine]

so its a dishonest metric

[hazy breach]

(and/or their internal data, which often overlap with wcl)

[vale pine]

yes

[lucid jackal]

WCL isn't telling you how good sub is

And again, even if you want to use WCL, sub is fine

Its "average"

I dont think anybody seriously would say "Dev, outlaw, and sub rogue are equally powerful this raid"

[vale pine]

i would say wcl is as good as simulationcraft or any metric you mention

[void hound]

its not but perception unfortunately matters

[vale pine]

just one tool, not a good representation of "everything"

[chrome palm]

Well outlaw is probably skewed

It’s not showing what outlaw would do on the last two bosses because it isn’t being played

[azure thicket]

sub has myth dimmy kills? it's a good option for phase 1 and phase 2 heroic

[lucid jackal]

Sub is opne of the best specs on dimmensius lol

Like, across all specs

all classes

[vale pine]

due to timings, which will change over time

[lucid jackal]

Timings are a two way street

A lotof the reason subs st is so bad is because bosses take 5 minutes

[vale pine]

but the entire discussion about balance is always temporal, we always end in the same argument

[real panther]

no but I got draged to talk about sub, but it was an example. Hard limit should not be a thing. some class being harder to play is a thing, and I like it. But hard limit is NOT a funny thing, and it's true to too many specs (because half is many yes)

[lucid jackal]

If bosses take 2:00, or 3:30, or even 4, the spec gets a lot stronger

Idk what u mean by hard limit

[azure thicket]

there's probably a sub rogue at the blizz offices rn

doing sub things lmao

[real panther]

a limit that you cant surpasses?

[void hound]

yep
comparison is the thief of joy as they say

[lucid jackal]

U can't expect every single spec to be 1-1 close when encounters are so specific and different

[chrome palm]

It’s kinda insane that on araz and dimensius you not only get add spawns and amps that set up with your cds, but also time to pre stack sht and coup without losing anything

[lucid jackal]

Even just a 3 boss bracket are dramatically different fights

How do you make all specs do the same DPS on fractillus, soul hunters, and then nexus king

[real panther]

then let's remove metrics? everyone play with those and we love to get rewarded for the skill we put in the game (even if it's only on details!)

[vale pine]

the problem is, you can't boil down balance to one boss

[lucid jackal]

These fights have literally nothing in common, and different specs are designed to have different strengths

[vale pine]

as it misses a lot of details

[lucid jackal]

If you are expecting your spec to be the best on every fight just play fotm

[vale pine]

balance is relative to each other in a wider space of things

[lucid jackal]

If you dont play fotm, learn to accept your spec has strengths and weaknesses and you cant be the best on every fight

[azure thicket]

idk you can't automate playtesting a mythic raid encounter, there's probably a bis raid comp on the test bench and a few off meta comps and then they

[plush roost]

What is the basis of todays discussion sorry just caught up

[azure thicket]

back off the difficulty from there

[void hound]

i think metrics are good and useful
but people get too attached to this game, and by extension, the output of their character when its really not that big of a deal most of the time

[vale pine]

just diffrent pov's on balancing. It usually ends up in narrowing the framework/problem space down to a single or two encounters and a very specific time in a patch. Which is what we currently argue i think.

[void hound]

if reward based on skill is that important, youre playing the wrong game
cause this game is about cooperating as a 20 man team

[vale pine]

I don't think its good to do that in a general balance argument

[lucid jackal]

I think ppl underestimate how much skill matters in wow when it comes to playing ur spec

If u suck dick at sub, and you are progging early mythic, you are actively a detriment to your team

[vale pine]

thats a good point

[clever delta]

bp is so back

[lucid jackal]

Especially this tier

[void hound]

that is also true

[clever delta]

😄

[lucid jackal]

Your job as sub rogue this tier was to do the damage when you needed to

If you sucked and weren't practiced, you didnt do damage

[vale pine]

do you think skill should be considered in tuning

[clever delta]

i love doing keys surrounded by apes make me feel good

[lucid jackal]

and GG, boss is now harder because u cant figure out your shit

[real panther]

i know but I remember we talked about it long time ago here. our phases between 2 sb windows are too weak, during df s2 we had a very good "down" phase with the staking buff on backstab (i dont remember the thing). the spec was then linear and not so fun, but the spirit was there. but besides that, it feels like I'm playing barney stinson lol "waaiiiiit for it.. waiiiit for it.. its gonna be.... legend... sblaaaaa"

[vale pine]

as lets say subtlety is more difficult to perform on

so the majority will perofrm abyssal

[plush roost]

Should just balance around m+ and let raid deal with it there i said it

[lucid jackal]

Now, does that mean "my spec is harder, therefore I should be better than the BM hunter pressing 2 buttons" Ideally, probably, but thats never been how wow has worked so expecting that philosphy to change is just dumb

[vale pine]

should that mean the best players should be allwed to be above average

or not

[clever delta]

bm is just assa of rogues

[vale pine]

because when it comes to blizz tuning, it often isn't the case

[clever delta]

ppl favorite

[vale pine]

difficulty of execution is not a consideration at all

[lucid jackal]

correct

[clever delta]

kush someone manage to gap others doing the same tho 😄

[lucid jackal]

and expecting that to change is foolish

Rogue is generally harder to play than most classes, not always but usually

That doesn't give rogue a blank check to just be OP thanos every tier

Never has and it never will

What specs are good each tier is borderline random

[vale pine]

on the specific fights that fit will into the damage pattern yes

[lucid jackal]

Difficulty has no bearing on who gets to be OP

[vale pine]

did he gap people on fractilus?

[clever delta]

oh i was thinking you mean same class

[azure thicket]

it sucks when they miss..uhh how op something is gonna be and don't bake fail states in like shadow priest not having to move or something in df

[clever delta]

not different ones

i was comapring apples to apples

[vale pine]

how would you explain mage then

it is considered harder

and is allowed to be "thanos op"

[real panther]

above? no. but I mean... llike come ON guys. yes, if I'm doing 2-3% mistake on a whole fight on one of the hardest spec of the game and get rekt by a tik tak toe spec hunter that drool on his keyboard... yes i got kinda mad lol

[plush roost]

I dont think mage is thanos op personally

[lucid jackal]

Then play another game, I'm being serious

This is how wow has worked since classic

[plush roost]

I think mage just trends towards the stronger side more often then not

[lucid jackal]

If your expecting the "harder to play spec" to be stronger than the babybrain spec, then you are ALWAYS going to be disappointed

[void hound]

it literally comes down to amount of players
im pretty sure

[real panther]

I didnt play the same vanilla as you

[vale pine]

it is easier than that

[azure thicket]

it works tm is what 99% of ppl want

[vale pine]

what is good comes down to biases

[lucid jackal]

What was the best spec in classic? It was warrior lol

What did warrior do

[azure thicket]

but of that 99% some ppl want specifics about it working and stuff

[vale pine]

tuning decisions are very much human, they also don't follow a strict statistics we can argue around

we discussed it the other day

how blizz adjusts based on player perception

[azure thicket]

i put avoidance on my cloak and honestly 10% speed vs 6% probably works better at 200ms shrug

[real panther]

you give blizzard too much credits. I think their level is going down (can't prove it tho)

[vale pine]

no its literally what ion mentioned

let me find it

[lucid jackal]

If u think wow balance is bad now u haven't been playing for long LOL

The game, on the whole hasn't been this balanced in a long time

[vale pine]

"At the end of the day, there's no indication that a player is happier being only 4% behind now as opposed to 12% behind 15 years ago. Perception is what matters, and in a live game, the goal is to balance how people feel, whatever the actual numbers say. Rather than seeking a static endpoint, the approach now is making frequent touches to reign in the high-end at the start of a cycle, then buffing stragglers over time."
This is from the talk you referenced. They don't even do that as often as they imply here.

[lucid jackal]

reminder that "good balance" doesn't mean every spec in the game is the same DPS on every encounter"

[latent finch]

Arent we actually pretty fine as a whole class atm. Both sub and and assa are pretty good and on their strong parts above avarage. Outlaw does outlaw things but overall rogue balancing is in a decent state no?

[real panther]

I didn't say it ever have been good. I'm saying it getting wors

[lucid jackal]

You are delusional then

You just don't remember how bad legion was for balance

or even BFA

[vale pine]

i think its an interessting problem

because balance leads to all sort of bad and good things

same with design decisions

but we lack a way to take a big step back and see the complete picture

[plush roost]

If balance is getting worse as compared to season 2 to season 3 sure ig. But that is quite the small samplesize

[real panther]

I don't, but then what? i should adopt your spirit of "it's like that, hon hon, deal with it.".. no I can't, but hey, if its only me, who cares

[vale pine]

and always operate on some broken data and a fight over "what matters the most"

[lucid jackal]

https://youtu.be/8f223_Km7qc?si=zNNa4GpzrR8BasCO&t=1588

[vale pine]

yes that was the talk

[lucid jackal]

Timestamp to him talking about DK balance

[lucid jackal]

I don't even think thats true

I'd say straight up this is the most balanced raid tier DPS wise in a long time

Buffing BM was a fucking mistake but

[real panther]

then why it feels so BAD? 😄

[lucid jackal]

Idk how a spec like Bm goes from bottom 3 DPS in the game, gets a 5% buff and is suddenly the best DPS spec in the game

Makes no sense how that happens

Fuck hunter players

[latent finch]

Didnt they buff the hero talent and then give them a 5% aura buff or something?

[warm marlin]

6 hours after buffs we’ve suddenly discovered a new build!

[vale pine]

because you care about the specs that the general precieves as fine/okay and not in need of change

[lucid jackal]

[plush roost]

My hunter in guild was saying they ipdated the api before the buff and realized theres a build

Hmmmm

[vale pine]

perception is a very useful tool but can be evry missleading

[plush roost]

Hmmmmmm

[vale pine]

think of it like this

hunter got a gigantic buff

and what was precived as bad is now one of the strongest dps in the game

[wispy crystal]

Can we play sub on every fight in MO or do certain fights Favor specs like assas more ?

[warm marlin]

Some of it is certainly the classic triple dps effect

[plush roost]

Can do anything u want in m0

[lucid jackal]

Technically sin is better on Plexus, Loomithar, and fractillus but

[vale pine]

this dramatically alters the gameplay expereince for anyone playing hunter

[real panther]

but then how do you say if you percieve a spec are "feels right" or not? we all use details and wc :\

yes you remove those and we happy

sure

but its not the case

[warm marlin]

All the good players (mislead by azor) were on MM

So bm looks much worse by comparison

[lucid jackal]

If you are tying "How good my spec is" to your details meter you need to just reevaluate the game

[wispy crystal]

I was thinking of swapping for those fights to sin, then stay sub for the rest.

Sin also can use Vers / Mast gear right ?

[lucid jackal]

The lines you are drawing in your head are wrong

[warm marlin]

You see the same thing on mage, warlock, warrior

Rogue to some degree

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I mean its sampling bias for sure

Something I mention every tier now :^)

[plush roost]

Yeah so why are all the good players being mislead by Fuu when clearly theres a ⚠️ Warning Signs ⚠️ build thats secretly BiS

[warm marlin]

They just need to be extremely light handed when buffing classes with multiple dps specs

[azure thicket]

just bring 2 evokers to plexus and have them burn shields

[warm marlin]

And they don’t seem to be aware yet

[wispy crystal]

For loomithar we just send blades/flag on CD right?

[lucid jackal]

NEW SUB ROGUE BUILD TURBO BOOST KILL TIMERS MAKE SUB GOOD

[azure thicket]

you get a shorter fight, and healers are 🙂

[latent finch]

the just double buffed them for w/e reason

[vale pine]

^

[real panther]

sorry, there's many lines. boss fight = check (they are fun). My spec = check (it's fun). The metric of my spec compared to other that do less = not check (lose 25% of the fun bar, i'm not that happy)

[vale pine]

what fatfrog mentions is not wrong

[lucid jackal]

Easy solution, stop looking at the last check

[vale pine]

you inherently get compared to everyone else in the raid

[warm marlin]

Even before the buff actually went live, the “new” build discovered hours after the buffs was already topping keys

[lucid jackal]

Why would I compare my fracillus DPS to a fury warrior

[warm marlin]

And doing good damage in raid

[lucid jackal]

Thats not my fight

[vale pine]

nobody gives a shit if your perform bad because of the spec you play

if your dps is shit you sit

[lucid jackal]

My fight is forgeweaver, my fight is dimensius, my fight is nexus king

I am literally god on these fights

[real panther]

I know you have a lot of solution I have not think of x)

[lucid jackal]

Balanced specs like sub rogue, have strenghts and weaknessess

[wispy crystal]

I think what frog means he he also wants sub rogues to be good in pure ST fights

[lucid jackal]

Where you have fights you are good at, and fights u are bad at

[lucid jackal]

Yeah and I want to be the king of england

[warm marlin]

You will mostly play every fight because of raid buff tho

[azure thicket]

we are good in pure st fights like plexus

[vale pine]

rogue buff is the most disposable one ^^

[wispy crystal]

Like my Plexus DPS is pretty bad compared to a fury warrior or arcane mage

[azure thicket]

when there's 0-1 evokers around

[vale pine]

you saw the wfr play fights without rogue

[warm marlin]

Yes, but it’s not bad enough to drop

[vale pine]

and they are more healer constrained

[lucid jackal]

PPl say rogue buff is the most disposable one, but its never been dropped a single tier since its been added

[limpid sage]

do you guys think 99 percentile sub rogue should deal more dmg than 99 percentile ret pala

[vale pine]

and dps constrained

than you will ever be

[limpid sage]

or would they in a perfect world do the same?

[lucid jackal]

Rogue was only cut on forgeewaver, because atro didn't work on the fights damage, but then they ended up playing rogue because rogue was the best spec for killing adds on the fight

[azure thicket]

idk they should buff engineering

[wispy crystal]

How come though ? Is it not enough priority damage ?

[warm marlin]

The only time race has dropped rogue in recent memory was when Atro didn’t work at all

[real panther]

ok but how "bad"? being bottom is not a big deal sure, but we are into a grave for st fight, like wtf xD

[warm marlin]

I.e rogue didn’t have a raid buff

[azure thicket]

some fights being solvable outside of raid comp is good design

[lucid jackal]

Its called a weakness

The spec is bad ST

[real panther]

like, come on..

[lucid jackal]

Idk how many times I can repeat the fact that on nexus king and dimensius, sub is one of the best specs, across all classes when it comes to progression

[warm marlin]

And it still got played on araz, as guy said, because sub is good at that fight

[lucid jackal]

Yes, fractillus sub sucks

[limpid sage]

the fact that we're permanently in the front of fractillus doesn't help either xd

[lucid jackal]

Womp womp

[vale pine]

the wfr has:

• lower item levels (lower health pools)
• often plays with 1 less healer to get dps
  This leads to a situation the DR has a lot of value.
  Yet, while its rare, raids dropped rogue in favor of the stronger specs in the race

[wispy crystal]

Just curious, if I shadowstep into fractillus do I drop into the blue pool under him and die ?

[real panther]

no

[vale pine]

basically, if rogue buff is mandatory, you would not have even one fight that happens

[lucid jackal]

step takes u infront

[quaint yoke]

question, is bubbling wax still used? or is it just double whetstone

[lucid jackal]

the only time rogue has been sat is when atro doesnt work

Which was stix

and forgeweaver

[wispy crystal]

Makes sense. I usually take least damage in m+ and even in raid

[lucid jackal]

But they ended up bringing the rogues in on forgeweaver, because rogue was thanos jesus

[vale pine]

wax + whestone or
wax + mana oil

[quaint yoke]

ty

[vale pine]

you can sim it, there is a string for consumables pinned in #tc-research

I would also argue that with higher damage amps, you don't need atro as much

[wispy crystal]

Sorry if I play alts, do I gain more Manaforge vandals rep? Or is the rep gained account wide / week?

[vale pine]

as the healers sucessively overheal the fight w/e due to more gear, boss nerfs, etc

[azure thicket]

weekly afaiu

[lucid jackal]

Sure but were not talkin about race to world last

Were talking about early prog where u need it

[wispy crystal]

Weekly / account or per toon?

[azure thicket]

account weekly

[lucid jackal]

and rogue has never been bad enough to justify dropping it, unless it just doesnt work

Which is rare in the first place

[azure thicket]

get a contract

[vale pine]

you did mention 2 examples

yourself

[wispy crystal]

Oh right. So if I'm capped with my rogue with rep. I can't get it on alts anymore ?

[lucid jackal]

2 examples in the past 4 years

and 1 of the examples you still played rogue because of how OP it was on the fight

[vale pine]

2 in 3 tiers

yes, but thats tuning

[warm marlin]

I do think rogue is probably the worst raid buff, maybe in competition with hunter. But raid buffs are just op

[vale pine]

and not guaranteed

i mean, i don't disagree

[azure thicket]

when was the last time ret was on top of a raid kill tho

[latent finch]

Im not sure how that works. But isnt hunter just a flat % boss hp because its more dmg a certain amount of boss hp%?

[vale pine]

most guilds will not think twice about rogue raid buff and just take it

[lucid jackal]

Rogue is the worst raid buff, its still a raid buff so u play it, and rogue is never bad enough to justify not playing it

[real panther]

ok, then plexus enters the room "boom"! you keep your windows because off 10-15s next shield coming and you want to play for your group. Badaboom, you get rekt by everyone because your "off cd" rotation is basicaly a scratch in the back.. lot of fun

[warm marlin]

5% damage above 80% health

And sometimes a fight is entirely decided by execute phase

[azure thicket]

rogue can do a lot of mechanics like gallywix bombs and still 100 parse*

[warm marlin]

So hunter buff is irrelevant

[lucid jackal]

Do you care about details, or killing the boss

[azure thicket]

those aren't logged but genuinely set the table on a w

[real panther]

BOTH, i told you that

[limpid sage]

we also give melees half a second more uptime through shroud!!

[real panther]

sorry i yeld

[azure thicket]

give op specs bad trinkets give us cool stuff like df era manic grief torch ree

[wispy crystal]

I did a 14% parse on our first mythic plexus.

When our raid had like 75% people die and I was the last few surviving to down the boss.

But my raid leader saw my logs and decided to drop me from the roster cause of low DPS. I'm now on the bench unless someone doesn't show up

[lucid jackal]

You are your own best advocate

[warm marlin]

I’m not pressing that thing cuh

[patent surge]

Spec difficulty in this game only brings punishment, not reward.

[lucid jackal]

Well the reward is I get to play a spec thats fun

:)

[elder isle]

in M+ what is the longest i should hold flag? Like if a pack is going to die and leave me with 5-6 seconds of flag do i still send it so it goes on CD faster?

[real panther]

I understand not alot think like that, I thought we were more. I think i'll just wait next patch "finger crossed" haha

[wispy crystal]

Sub rogue is really fun. Just kinda sadge on pure single target fights 😭

[real panther]

yeah, no, you spend a flag, you want the whole window

[wispy crystal]

Btw if I use flag, and the mob dies. If I keep using finishers do I continue to build up the buff ?

[vale pine]

you get the persistent buff immidiatly if the target dies

[lucid jackal]

word is banned for a reason

Dont type around it

[vale pine]

you can't build more stacks

[placid elk]

u guys play 2x on use in m+ ? dslice sim tells me to get more crit and play pacemaker

[patent surge]

Many bugs unfixed, dmg overall is just not good, I mean, this is not an ideal season for rogue players

[warm marlin]

I think my favourite thing about the “outside hof prog sub sucks” argument is that tuning matters less and less the farther down you go

[lilac pendant]

Whats better Wax or Whetstone R2?

[lucid jackal]

I swear I live in a different world than ppl

[patent surge]

Just wait for midnight i guess

[warm marlin]

What does it matter if sub is 5% behind when you can just play better

[lucid jackal]

What do u mean "dmg overall is just not good"

[wispy crystal]

So it's always better to use flag on a mob that can live long enough right?

What if I flag target A and then use my finishers on target B?

[lucid jackal]

Do you guys live on first 3 mythic or smthing

[vale pine]

yes

[lucid jackal]

Subs damage is good

[vale pine]

flag does not do much damage

you can use it on any target that does survive

[lucid jackal]

Yeah literaly

[patent surge]

Idk man

[vale pine]

subtlety needs a lot of specifics for the damage to be good

[wispy crystal]

Does switching target stop me from building up the mastery buff for flag?

[shrewd lantern]

"outside of prog where comp actually matters"

[patent surge]

In raid, especially in last 2 bosses, yes

[vale pine]

no

[real panther]

i prefere use+passive, but if you have the prism its another story

[vale pine]

you can literally finish on any target and get stacks

[patent surge]

In m+, idk man

[wispy crystal]

Awesome that's a great tip Ty for that

[sacred gull]

does it also triggers the dmg ?

[patent surge]

kushy exists for a reason

[vale pine]

yes

[azure thicket]

wax is good enough but if you have access to whetstones via blacksmithing just use those

[sacred gull]

wow no more escuses to not switch target during burst then haha

[vale pine]

you can use any combination of wax/whestone/mana oil and be fine

important is to use one

[warm marlin]

I’m sure rwl guilds will also be playing 2-3x ele 2x destro because they’re just so op

[patent surge]

It feels good that wax is really a thing now

that visual effect seems

um

delicious

idk man

[placid elk]

i forgot wax existed

[patent surge]

like vanilla icecream or something

[lilac pendant]

i dont beacuse its free

[azure thicket]

not leveling alchemy til midnight but also r3 flasks pls

[patent surge]

I'm wondering, is m+ balance a thing for blz

[lucid jackal]

Sometimes yes

[latent finch]

there are some cooked takes around there where rl think someone on a twink spec is better then a main on a like 2% worse spec when both are played at the same potential its a hard time out here

[patent surge]

Seems like they don't care about it in early few weeks in every season

[azure thicket]

kinda nice that you can just bring a warrior instead of a death knight to most keys but yeah who isn't a wheelchair when it's melee smile

[shrewd lantern]

i mean it doesnt matter

[lucid jackal]

Well they probably shouldn't right? People for the first few weeks were saying sub is OP in keys, now it's "just fine"

[shrewd lantern]

biggest problem with m+ is the community

not balancing

[lucid jackal]

Nobody is "pushing" the first few weeks of every season

[vale pine]

sub is still good

[patent surge]

Well if i remembered it correctly

the op spec is assa

[vale pine]

but this seaosn is kinda a exception to the norm this tier

[placid elk]

man i thought we had it, depleted by 1s 💀

[vale pine]

e.g. sub was not played in m+ at all in s1

[lucid jackal]

SIn is bugged atm, and generally speaking sin requires routing around it

Sub is very plug and play in comparison

[patent surge]

and it got -10% aoe in the 5th day of this season

so meh now

[shrewd lantern]

because its harder for the lower end

assa is a very easy spec to play

copers stay mad

[vale pine]

the bugs on sin are mostly for raid, they play deathstalker in m+

[lucid jackal]

I mean even pre nerf, sin still had the issue of needing routing to be effective in keys

[patent surge]

Idk sub need more of tanks playing around it imo

[vale pine]

sub is also buggy, and could do more if certain bugs would not exist

[patent surge]

cuz if pulls is awkward

I mean route

[lucid jackal]

Not really

[vale pine]

both sub and sin rely on pulls

[lucid jackal]

Sin does 0 st damage in its aoe build

[azure thicket]

double melee vs double ranged in m+ we all know who's usually fine

[astral axle]

i mean if any tank pulls 3 mobs at a time no dps will be happy

[latent finch]

the "i go play sub because assa is bugged" still always puts a smile on my face

[vale pine]

you want to plan around 1 min 30 cds

[patent surge]

Sub could be facing a difficult situation

[lucid jackal]

If you aren't routing around pulling funnel for the spec, its actively a liability

Sub is just a typical CD spec

"Pull I have CDs"

[patent surge]

lose a flag, or cast a really bad flag

[placid elk]

idk in m+ i feel like i always got cds

[lucid jackal]

(because you do)

[placid elk]

expecially 2x on use lilly + prism.

[warm marlin]

[tidal marsh]

lily + prism

[patent surge]

No man it's a thing in like

[placid elk]

champion track both

[patent surge]

19

[lucid jackal]

Sure but one spec "wants you to pull around CDs" the other "does literal tank DPS ST without funnel"

[vale pine]

subtlety does worse than tanks on pulls without cds

so don't think the agrument holds up

[placid elk]

the less dps i do, the longer the pack takes, the more closer i get to cds

so i can blast

[patent surge]

Maybe the real problem is

[warm marlin]

maybe if a pack dies without a singular dance cast

[patent surge]

Sub is too powerful in flag window

and too weak out of it

[vale pine]

i don't see it as a big problem

[lucid jackal]

Its not a bug its a feature

[vale pine]

i think the main issue is how punishing it is if you make mistakes

[azure thicket]

blizzard doesn't tune around single pulls they do 1-2-3-4 pulls and if the string is fine they send it

[patent surge]

Good burst damage is a very good thing in m+

[azure thicket]

it's good design

that 3 pack on dawnbreaker before 1st boss is cringe(except for outlaw lol) but it's good that it's there >_>

[patent surge]

But i think they pushed it too far in sub

[vale pine]

i mean its only this extreme because of trinkets

[lucid jackal]

Its a big reason why sub is so strong in raid this tier

[vale pine]

and tier

[lucid jackal]

So idk

and its fun

[vale pine]

^

[patent surge]

Well at least bp is powerful now

[vale pine]

bp isn't that powerful

if you compare it to other aoe spells

we also can't spam it as much because of energy constarints

[patent surge]

Yeah

fok costs too much energy now

[real panther]

for me, the only tiny change that could do the spec perfect in key would be to adjust the dm timer by 1~2 sec

[patent surge]

That's sad

[vale pine]

a slightly higher dance cdr would be nice

[real panther]

it's too long rn, and boss are being pulled around, yeah, 1~2sec remaining

[patent surge]

True

but my guess is

this tier effext

[lilac pendant]

I would also like First Dance to be kinda improved

[azure thicket]

rogue talent tree is good but more baseline stuff would be cool too

lesser soothing darkness/vigor etc

[patent surge]

will straightly go into the hero talent tree

[astral axle]

i love the burst window nature of sub it is fun

[vale pine]

it feels weird that the first dance has this strange requirement

[real panther]

(I mean the first dance timer sorry)

[vale pine]

e.g. i would rly want to have it on dimensius on platforms due to downtime

[astral axle]

if you want to always do damage play fury or something

xd

[patent surge]

Yeah man

[latent finch]

maybe they could change it to like if you did not do dmg for x amount of time or something

[vale pine]

possible

[lucid jackal]

You don't want this

[vale pine]

but you probably would create bad gameplay patterns then

[real panther]

would it be too powerful if it were like, instant when you leave fight?

[lilac pendant]

Make it META to use Vanish on combat and not attacking for 4 seconds for First Dance

[patent surge]

But everytime i think about tfd

[lucid jackal]

"Before CDs, dont reapply rupture and stand away from the boss to get TFD ready for your flag windows"

[vale pine]

stealth requirement would be one thing, but would make vaish a dps cooldown again

[latent finch]

Yea nvm pls no

[patent surge]

the really thing that's going in my head is

weaponmaster, its just shit

[real panther]

it never works lol

[patent surge]

Literally

[astral axle]

idk it feels like many specs now have frequent cds or basically cds that do nothing but high constant output

[azure thicket]

idk if sub really works well with havoc demon hunters or hunters

[lucid jackal]

Depends on the spec

[astral axle]

so it is nice to see a big spike and then not much for some contour

[azure thicket]

it feels like it's player to player interaction rather than generalized interaction you can rely on

[patent surge]

The cd thing im my opinion is not a good design now
High burst dmg specs should be a decent choice in low uptime fights
But cdr thing is requiring high uptime in the same time

[vale pine]

i think legion had an interesting design

[lucid jackal]

But sub is broken on dimensius, and it has hella downtime

🤨

[vale pine]

where every cooldown was strong but short

[patent surge]

Sod is weird

[vale pine]

and you ahd cooldowns frequently

[lucid jackal]

Why do you pose the question "Sub should be good on low uptime fights" as if sub isn't

The 2 downtime fights, sub is broken on

[patent surge]

it seems like something blz brought in only for filling the bars, in legion

cuz they deleted too many things

[shrewd lantern]

real question is

why do healers complain in this game so much

when they have to do their job

[patent surge]

No that's the thing in this raid yes
But the reason of sub is good in that 2 bosses is not that downtime part, no？

[lucid jackal]

Part of it is downtime, part of it is burst, part of it is burst AOE

[patent surge]

Complaining is a part of their job

[lucid jackal]

I don't get how you are framing the question like "Its bad design, sub should be good on the fights with downtime", but it is good on the fights with downtime

[vale pine]

sub is fine on downtime fights

[astral axle]

if healers dont get to heal they are sad. if healers are expected to heal they are sad. idgi

[patent surge]

If this tier set effect is removed, heavy downtime will cause a dry sod+shadowcraft cast like it was in undermine

The way i look at it, yeah i don't like it

[lucid jackal]

yeah and if my mom had wheels she would be a bike

[patent surge]

Transmamas

[bleak pasture]

No way a sub rogue complaining about up time

[patent surge]

Optimus prime

[vale pine]

we don't

think the main discussion is still about single target output

[patent surge]

I mean, the thing is, sod and dance cdr

[vale pine]

i mentioned the other day, you could buff ruture to make sustained aoe/cleave a bit better without much change on st

[patent surge]

they have to work together in some way, and in this season, it's decent

But without this tier, i mean, it could be bad in many situations

[lucid jackal]

Sure, but we have tier

And were about to go into a brand new expansion giving us 10 more talent points

The game is different next expac

Theres no use in what ifs

[patent surge]

Pure st is not a thing a sub player should thinking about in this season

that's my opinion

[karmic harbor]

somebody tell blizzard to make sod cd reduce when you use black powder

tyvm

[shrewd lantern]

?

[patent surge]

？

How

Why

[azure thicket]

just chill and let sod pool

[patent surge]

That's crazy talk

[shadow lance]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[patent surge]

[karmic harbor]

if im in mass aoe pulls back to back and dance is up but sod isnt

im not happy

[azure thicket]

make it up by sending adds into boss with 10 soul rending pings

[patent surge]

O right, speaking of wa

any news for outlaw in midnight？

[vale pine]

we had no news for midnight so far

[azure thicket]

it would be nice if sod had the same icd as shadowdance tho

[patent surge]

[azure thicket]

i think alot of the people who stayed at blizzard can do art and programming really really well

[swift tinsel]

Mm yeah more cdr love that

[patent surge]

I'm really looking forward to midnight now, no joke

[swift tinsel]

Certainly not tripling down

[azure thicket]

maybe not the best designers this expansion 😒

[patent surge]

All those unfixed bugs i tribute them to midnight expectations

[swift tinsel]

I’m withholding excitement or anticipation until the day 12.0 goes live

[lucid jackal]

The game is always just a bit buggy

[patent surge]

A bit, yeah

[swift tinsel]

But that’s more of a state of wow thing than rogue in particular

[patent surge]

not like this, no

[shrewd lantern]

people really complaining about like 3-4% aoe loss

[patent surge]

they couldn't even fix that vfx filter

[obtuse shard]

All I want is trackable UB reset, is it too much

[patent surge]

No way that is normal

[azure thicket]

the ceiling in the tazavesh inn and that one door in dawnbreaker church both unload if you look at them funny

[lucid jackal]

I don't think this expac is buggier than any other

[shrewd lantern]

because it aint

better than df overall

[patent surge]

Better than df maybe

[azure thicket]

..one time my buddy pulled up and missed the point of a portal 2 playtest and kinda got passed over for call backs lol but he was right too many scripted sequences

[patent surge]

but no, i think it is actually buggier than some seasons

[patent surge]

Yeah, so？

[shrewd lantern]

its not gamebreaking

[patent surge]

Like if you don't care about like 4 ivl overall

[shrewd lantern]

4 ilvl

[vale pine]

subtlety had always a gigantic buglist

its just this xpac is louder than others

people are more angry

[shrewd lantern]

also im 90% sure sin would have gotten nerfed

if it wasnt bugged

[vale pine]

e.g. why we have memes like "close your class discord"

[shrewd lantern]

because the tier is way overtuned

[patent surge]

[patent surge]

Kush？

[vale pine]

that originated from the paladin discord closing one channel to get attention

so no, its not kush

[patent surge]

Oh right

Man

that's just classic ret players if i may say so

[shrewd lantern]

my favorite kush quote is

"no i wont feint during dance heal my character"

[elder isle]

is trickster 1hr tricks bugged?

[swift tinsel]

1hr tricks is trickster

Sneaky edit

[elder isle]

yea is it bugged

yea couldnt do it fast enough

[swift tinsel]

Bugged how

As in you need to attack for it to last an hour?

[elder isle]

the buff is only ofr 30 sec

[azure thicket]

sub is great for biting the head off the gingerbread man smile

[swift tinsel]

Yeah you need to hit something

[elder isle]

yea i just thought before you had the buff for 1 hour

but the buff is after you attack?

[shrewd lantern]

tricks never redirected proximity aggro threat

[lucid jackal]

tricks is 2 parts

[shrewd lantern]

[lucid jackal]

its at first a 30 second buff, where the next hit triggers the redirect

the redirect part is perma

[swift tinsel]

Lol if it did that would save me a few repair bills from early pulling

[patent surge]

That's just how it works

play the game, please

Or even better, read the texts

[shrewd lantern]

read the texts

checks every question about fb assa

"why do i press vanish"

[plush roost]

"Guys why is my symbola giving me 6% haste?"

[hexed sluice]

Cause it feels like it

[plush roost]

Hmm maybe an omen

A cautionary tale

[hexed sluice]

A hint at a rework were we stack haste

[plush roost]

A ⚠️ Warning Sign(s)⚠️

I actually pray for a haste sub build

For nothing more than to watch the discord burn

[vale pine]

warning sign would be fine if haste was a stat we wanted

i don't mind it

[patent surge]

Me too

seriously