subtlety

[queen plinth]

And there is a lot of classes that have a clean cd pattern

[tulip gorge]

wait you use symbols outside of dance too?

[vale pine]

outside of... not using symbols for extended amounts of time

[tulip gorge]

at least in m+ I just send a naked sec tech and hold the extra symbol charge

[vale pine]

arcane is inherently a lot simpler

[tulip gorge]

in case I need an extra dance window or something

[twin quartz]

Yeah, one thing I’m awful about is sending raw symbols with sectech when the budget allows

[queen plinth]

Arcane is easy but hard to master

Sub is harder to play

[wild vine]

Depends on how hard it is for you to download a weakaura

[vale pine]

subtlety flows, but its way diffrent to arcane

[tulip gorge]

is it such a big dps loss if you don't do it though

[queen plinth]

Don’t need the weakaura if u understand barrage conditions

[vale pine]

as mentioned, the biggest diffrence is just the recovery

any other class/spec in the game can recover as they have a "reset" every cooldown iteration

subtlety does not

[wild vine]

Can use the weakaura and remove any thinking along the hard to master part that wouldnt be required of any other burst class tho

[vale pine]

which makes the gameplay less natural/intuitive

[short radish]

done

[queen plinth]

Go ahead and try

[fossil forge]

No

[queen plinth]

And u will see even with the wa u will still not parse yellow/pink

[karmic harbor]

[wild vine]

I mean I alt mage for some years now, which inherently could also be why I dont see much of the issue

[queen plinth]

Then u should know that there is much more to it than pressing barrage when the wa tells u to

[hushed roost]

is there like a standard condition for when to send that

[queen plinth]

I would like to have sub a liiiiiiil easier cd wise

[vale pine]

^ this is basically tl;dr subtlety vs. arcane difficulty

[queen plinth]

And prolly more people would play it aswell

[short radish]

just dont, it's not worth it

[wild vine]

Well I know there is more to it, but also nothing unreasonable or unnatural

[tulip gorge]

pretty sure most people don't play cheat death nowadays

[twin quartz]

I only do it on pylons on araz atm

[wild vine]

Think thats purely for raid

[twin quartz]

I’m just farming dances back at that time anyways

[tulip gorge]

but idk why we have to compare difficulty between specs

why can't we have some specs be more difficult than others

[queen plinth]

IMO dr on feint and on evasion is so much better than cheat death

I thought mage is unkillable

But rogue holy

[tulip gorge]

I don't want to play another flavor of ret paladin or bm hunter

[vale pine]

feint costs half of your energy bar

^^

which isn't ideal if you think about it

for a class thats energy constrained

[tulip gorge]

that's the price you pay for having a defensive off the gcd, with barely any cooldown

[fossil forge]

Always feint after using a spender (OUTSIDE OF DANCE)or b4 u go into cds

[queen plinth]

Love feint more than alter time ngl

[vale pine]

it always becoems a war if you mention difficulty, as you see here

[buoyant vault]

Quick question about stats: I was under the impression that I should stack Verse/Mastery but whenever I sim, it wants me to change my gems and enchants to Crit/Verse. I'm at 19% (6k crit), 75% (15k mastery), and 33% (25k verse). I currently have a Verse/Haste neck (for Outlaw) and am thinking about crafting a sub neck. Should I craft it Verse/Mastery or Verse/Crit?

[twin quartz]

Crit is good too

[vale pine]

you just go with whatever gear piece you can with mastery/vers/crit

[twin quartz]

Trust the clanker

[tulip gorge]

also feint costs 25 energy

[vale pine]

rogeu has no caps or anthing

[tulip gorge]

that's a small price to pay imo

but I play the talent that reduces the energy cost

[vale pine]

1/4 of your energy bar, fair

[wild vine]

I think alter time could use a change, in itself its pretty cool tho

[vale pine]

but think of it diffrently

you need 2.5 sec to get that energy

so pressing feint basically means 2.5 sec of damage lost

[tulip gorge]

and how is that not fair given the cd of feint?

[vale pine]

as energy is the main driver behind ability use

[karmic harbor]

arcane players think they need a phd to play their class

[wild vine]

Its pretty hard to use right for many it seems

[fossil forge]

Losing 2,5 global is big

[tulip gorge]

don't let boomies hear you complain about feint

[short radish]

tbh most people think that about sub as well

[queen plinth]

If u can’t use alter ur braindead sorry

[queen plinth]

What is phd

[fossil forge]

How can you call someone braindead and ask that after

[vale pine]

thats very common, i was laughed at when i did mention arcane being easier to play than subtlety. People just have this perception and its very hard argue against it

[tulip gorge]

losing a couple of gcds outside of cds is pretty much nothing

[queen plinth]

Since English is not my first language and I don’t know some short words?

How can u ask that when it’s obv

[wild vine]

Well it isnt that bad in itself, its just that people seemingly cant wrap their head around it, because it requires more effort than other defensives

[tulip gorge]

and during cds you are not exactly energy starved, are you

[fossil forge]

It means the same thing in my language thats why i was surprised gangy

Ye outside of cd its fine

[vale pine]

it depends

lets give an example

[queen plinth]

So what is pdh

[tulip gorge]

you got finishers give you energy, symbols give you energy

[vale pine]

you nee to use feint in your opener on a boss

now you have 10 sec of dance

feint alone can mean you can use less abilities in your tfd increased first dance

[tulip gorge]

if that's a problem you also got evasion giving you 20% dr for free

[karmic harbor]

with elusiveness

[fossil forge]

Doctor of philosophy

Doctorare

T

[vale pine]

wdym

[tulip gorge]

elusiveness

[vale pine]

you would skip cheat death if you do so

[late oxide]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

which is our strongest defensive

[queen plinth]

Oh well yes arcane just has weird or too many conditions to track when u have to barrage especially when playing spellslinger
Sunfury is piss easy and on

Obv

[tulip gorge]

you can't have it all

you need to sacrifice something

[vale pine]

yes, but you literally confirm my point

the defensives have trade offs

yet we argue as you get everything for free

[sour sun]

wait, if our gcd is flat one second, dont we have to instantly backstab after dance in order to get 8 globals into dance? I'm looking at the "correct" timeline in the common mistakes and theres a brief delay after dance before bs to hit symbols

[late oxide]

how do setting skill on keybind, It is not work

[sour sun]

Maybe im being too nitpicky/overthinking?

[twin quartz]

The main weakness rogue has defensively is rot damage, and having DR against freaking bleeds

[tulip gorge]

I personally always play with elusiveness because I find it stronger than cheat death so I consider it free

[vale pine]

you have a bit of wiggle room, because you can cast your spell somewhere betwen 0 and 0.99 sec after dance

[sour sun]

OH okay

[queen plinth]

Rogue is unkillable

[sour sun]

i thought it was like, a hardcoded 8

[vale pine]

tho that time buffer

[queen plinth]

I don’t know

[vale pine]

is for your entire dance

[tulip gorge]

are there any other defensives with low cd like feint, besides bear form and defensive stance which have way worse penalties?

[vale pine]

going from statistics, arcane mage is on par with assassiantion in amount of deaths

so mage is as "unkillable" as rogue

[sour sun]

so this should be fine

[vale pine]

if you want to talk about unkillable

DK is

[sour sun]

(idk if we SS during dance at more than 7 still actually)

[queen plinth]

That’s weird ngl

[vale pine]

dk is compeltely op in terms of survivability

[queen plinth]

Cause on both specs u can’t die

[vale pine]

not rly

[queen plinth]

Except 1 shots

[vale pine]

rogue is very cooldown dependent

[sour sun]

gonna go double check that

[vale pine]

and many things in raid do oneshot

rogue also has a lot of problems dealing with rot damage

[lucid jackal]

If u dont use feint u do die, and dots still hurt

[tulip gorge]

it is, in the past you could argue it's because DK has low movement but with rider being a hero talent that's no longer a thing

[lucid jackal]

But like, if u just are good with your resources, u just kinda live

[vale pine]

there is a bit of a advantage for outlaw and subtelty because they have some additional defensive talents

[lucid jackal]

Spacing out feint/vial properly is important

[vale pine]

vial is also energy costs

[tulip gorge]

vers stacking also helps a lot

[vale pine]

yep

[queen plinth]

I don’t know how it is in 18+ keys
But I timed 15s by pressing feint and vial only and barely got dmg

[twin quartz]

I’ve thought about going dwarf to get rid of dots/bleeds, but I’ve been bloodelf for so long

[vale pine]

stats are too in our favor

[sour sun]

im griefing my rotation (ez fix though at least)

[vale pine]

was the play in older seasons

think people currently love to go orc for offensive

[sour sun]

Genuine question, per the discussion earlier about difficulty, am I like, out of the norm for finding Outlaw harder to pick up than sub?

[vale pine]

towards keys

[queen plinth]

How much dps gain is going from nelf to orcs

[lucid jackal]

Outlaw is the hardest spec to learn for sure

[tulip gorge]

all rogue specs play very differently from each other

[sour sun]

That spec just feels so free form/reaction based as opposed to us just using our information at hand to determine if its go time

[vale pine]

i think a important factor for survival is also that you can avoid many things by

well being not melee

[sour sun]

cuz our go is literally the same every time

[twin quartz]

Outlaw is hard for a different reason. You have to be very vigilant and good at snap decisions every 0.75s global

[vale pine]

the "hard" think about outlaw is rerolling

and the high apm

[sour sun]

we're thinking macro while they're thinking micro

least that's how i think about it

[vale pine]

there is nothing inherently hard about the spec tho, making it usually perform decently without a lot of experience

[tulip gorge]

this season there are new trickster rules and that makes the spec even harder

[vale pine]

so i don't exactly know if i would label outlaw as "hardest spec to learn"

[chrome fern]

Outlaw sucks dick cause I get random extra cp after I’ve made my decision with my current cp

[tulip gorge]

but that's only if you care about minmax

[sour sun]

oh to overall learn definitely not

[vale pine]

especially given that the "hard" reroll part can be just done by looking at a weakaura

[chrome fern]

Which is ironic I know cause managing resets on sub is a thing

[vale pine]

if we talk about min/max, it might be hard to utialize gcds perfectly every time

[tulip gorge]

you can just use this WA for rerolls: https://wago.io/Pd53s_NPU

[vale pine]

because of the low 0.8 sec gcd

[sour sun]

we have a visualizer technically, as outlaw you just get a sound and maybe a flashing light if you add a wa

[vale pine]

which is a diffrent topic than initially learning and how you perform with just some basic understanding of the spec

[sour sun]

reacting to that indicator in .75 is oof

its doable but you have a pretty big mental stack during the learning process

so a lot of em may be missed

[vale pine]

also keep in mind, that most mistakes on outlaw are not severe

[twin quartz]

If you can’t autopilot outlaw, it’ll be hard to do well

[tulip gorge]

at some point you get into the flow of outlaw

and you don't think as much about it

[sour sun]

Ye

[vale pine]

your damage won't be bad if you don't utialize every global correctly

[sour sun]

I'd kinda argue same about sub, but if you do fuck up you're just cooked on sub

whereas with outlaw you do have some space to breathe yeah

"oh i messed this up good thing i can fall back on X" *bar kir

[vale pine]

cooldown management is just incredibly hard to learn

[tulip gorge]

if you fuck up and lose your adrenaline rush it's genuinely over

[sour sun]

simply dont run out of vanishes, play nelf

[vale pine]

which is what i discribed intitially before people hopped on the "my spec is more difficult" topic

because i did say it made subtlety probably the most difficult to learn

[ashen warren]

hello I have a question how do you track/react instantly/know when you have coup de grace proc ? Like is there a way to or smthing I should know

[vale pine]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[ashen warren]

Thanks

[vale pine]

you can track escallating blades, it will show you when you have coup (on 4 stacks)

can simply do a condition like a glow

it is what i do in my weakaura set

[light cypress]

Can we set up sims so it pretends we start combat with X netherprism stacks?

[sour sun]

I really found the best way to figure it out is to just bash head into the wall and look at the experience objectively. I'm gradually starting to understand when it's okay to hold my cds, big or mini, vs i should be sending them, and its been literally just learning "how fast will this pack die" and "will I waste more than 30% of my go window if i pop here"

which unfortunately, that question changes depending on my groups ability to kill trash

or a boss

actually im seeing your point the more I try and say it isnt that bad.

funny thing, that

[vale pine]

i think you can do it by intuition, but there is a easy mental model to have for understanding it. Like discribed here

[twin quartz]

Why does coup sometimes refill combos late? Do you still technically autoattack during the coup animation and sometimes shadow techniques just fills you up during the animation?

[vale pine]

bug

it can't refill when premeditation is up

[twin quartz]

Ahh, alright

[sour sun]

if there's a big gap between pulls doesnt this shift tho

[vale pine]

also there is coup

which has 3 hits

[sour sun]

like, if you send according to this, you kinda suffer from a "ah shit they died early i couldnt farm back up the dance accordingly"

[vale pine]

one at use, one delayed (0.4 sec iirc), and a 3rd a bit later (1 sec) all of them count as finisher casts

so can trigger the refund

[twin quartz]

I understand

[sour sun]

I'm prolly overcomplicating

[vale pine]

to make things even more complicated

coup also has a 1.2 sec gcd

means the buffer you have to use spells in dance becomes lower every time you use coup

and it can, combined with delayed refunds easy lead to... losing a cast

[sour sun]

which feels bad when you get the 4 coups in dance out

[vale pine]

its a gameplay impacting bug

[sour sun]

4 coups is pure dopamine though

[vale pine]

similar to fatebound cdr on assassiantion sometimes acting weirdly

[twin quartz]

Yeah, it’s pretty annoying

[queen plinth]

Sub is a lot of thinking about cds which is annoying

• that holding cds for specific interactions

[twin quartz]

But you also have a lot of time to think about them in between dances

[queen plinth]

Im holding dances for javelins on second boss eco for example

And I’m not sure if this holding desyncs my cds or lowers the amount of cds i could have

[fossil forge]

when u get javelin just walk into the other one and u dont take dmg

[tulip gorge]

how broken would it be if vanish would reset tfd?

[queen plinth]

Nah I’m just dancing on javelins to help the team lower inc dmg and Padding 😼

[twin quartz]

There used to be a macro with vanish that would reset it during nonboss combat, but I think it doesn’t work anymore

[tulip gorge]

I don't mean waiting for 6 seconds

[fossil forge]

just rolled a gambit 18 🙏 we eating good

[tulip gorge]

I mean straight up resetting tfd as soon as you press vanish

making vanish an offensive cd

[vale pine]

consequence of:

• cdr components
• naturally bad aligning cds
• multiple stacks on cooldowns

[twin quartz]

Yeah, that’d feel really nice

[vale pine]

also what you discribe is exactly my point

subtlety cooldown management is hard, because it was designed to be hard

a lot of talents could have been modelt diffrently and make things more obviouse

or have mechanics to make up for bad play

you can think of something as simple as rupture

if a target dies on assasisantion, you get energy refunds so using rupture is less punishing if you make mistakes

[twin quartz]

I don’t think there’s another spec in the game that feels as good to understand than sub

[vale pine]

for subtlety, you gain nothing, you just lost all your damage

and this is the simplest example

now all of that holds up for cds

to make things even worse, you can fire symbols easily 3 times and just delete your entire symbosl buffer, just because you spammed the key

[queen plinth]

Love rupturing the target a second time cause nameplates moved :)))

[vale pine]

that too

again comparing subtlety to assassiantion

if you start a pack of 5 you can play subtlety/assasisantion very diffrent

[limpid sage]

is there a way to make friendly nameplates overlapping while enemy nameplates stacking? I want to see what hp my team has but whenever they move the enemy nameplates move as well

[vale pine]

on assassiantion, you can just rupture + garrote the main target 2 times

[queen plinth]

Press shift v and stop looking at friendly nameplates

[vale pine]

and you have dots up on all targets and swim in energy

for subtlety

[queen plinth]

What the jelly

[limpid sage]

but... then I don't see my teams hp xd

[vale pine]

to spread rupture, you need to either:

• rupture the main tagret 4 times (which is inefficeint)

or

[limpid sage]

also helpful for mouseover shadowstepping

[queen plinth]

U got frames

[limpid sage]

to see where they are

[vale pine]

switch targets and rupture 3 times

both is by design harder to play and more punishing for misplay

[queen plinth]

Make secret tech apply a snapshots rupture to all targets for 3 seconds

[vale pine]

the point i am trying to make, if its not obviouse is

you can absolutely design most things to be easier to play and understand

or less punishing

but it requires effort from the devs and interest in having these characteristics

[queen plinth]

The whole rupturing part could be so much more easy

Apply it to more with one press like assa

Or make it like spread to all after pressing rupture during dance or something like that

All this multidotting is such bad gamedesign

[vale pine]

there is also a bit of a irony

if you look at it historically

[twin quartz]

I like the minigame of spreading around ruptures in between dances. It preps for more damage

[vale pine]

because in legion, rupture for subtlety was changed to make it distinct and also make us use it less

because subtlety was deisgned to be the burst spec

and assassiantion was the sustained bleed spec

[azure thicket]

mm is this weird or is the vibe for sub/assa right now adds into boss and that's about it

[vale pine]

this hold up very long, but assassiantion got sucessively more like subtlety

[queen plinth]

There is no way u like how it works currently, spreading rupture is a shit show

[vale pine]

the jump was quite a bit more extreme in DF+

[karmic harbor]

dfa my beloved

[queen plinth]

Blizzard needs to make such things way easier

[sour sun]

if we dont optimize prism by skipping first shab use or cheesing stacks, is lily better?

[queen plinth]

Or less punishing

[vale pine]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vale pine]

lilly is not bad, but its not like the best possible option

[vale pine]

the problem is just diffrent philosophies

inherently blizz will do what their devs think is correct, and they have a very diffrent world view internally

so whatever we discuss here is nothing new to them

[queen plinth]

Cause these idiots don’t play their own game

[sour sun]

yeah i just dont have forge sadly, sim says vet maxed prism > hero maxed lily, but im not holding prism at all and just have a hero pace secondary

[vale pine]

they knew a lot of these problems before making design decisions

but there was often a lack of experience, knowlage or just incentive to focus on certain metrics

[sour sun]

so i feel like maybe i'd be better off with lily unless i just bind prism seperately, which i should do but im lazy

[vale pine]

it is why you see ion or whoever does talks now

talk about a shift in philosophy

[sour sun]

nvm ez fix, just gonna stop being lazy

[azure thicket]

tanks are allergic to casters rn tho

[vale pine]

to make things more obviouse, easier to understand and less punishing

because i can tell you

these 3 things

[azure thicket]

if they make npcs able to move while casting

i think the game probably gets better

[queen plinth]

IMO they need to put more quality of life things to classes and just tune numbers

[sour sun]

anyone have a prism stack wa by chance?

[vale pine]

are the exact things devs did hear every iteration of wow from the community

since at least Legion

[sour sun]

can go find one if needed dw about it

[vale pine]

which released 2016

[fossil forge]

it shows on your bar

[vale pine]

so nearly a decade ago

[queen plinth]

Fuu

Apply as dec

[sour sun]

its only showing up on my buffs, and i dont look up there

[queen plinth]

Dev

[sour sun]

xd

[queen plinth]

And make sub great

[vale pine]

XD

i need to fight a internal team that loves assassiantion for that

[fossil forge]

Type prism in wago and it shows up first

[vale pine]

^^

[sour sun]

ye just grabbed that one

was just addressing why i felt i should grab one

[fossil forge]

Assa is like the younger sibling

blizzards baby

[queen plinth]

Just shake hands and make both great

[azure thicket]

dagger and sneak class is down bad rn

[fossil forge]

[vale pine]

haha

every time that happens

people start playing subtlety

[limpid sage]

I like it as well

[vale pine]

so can't have that

[limpid sage]

but I like feral as well

[vale pine]

(i am joking obv.)

[twin quartz]

This current fatebound assassination thing feels like playing BM hunter or something

[vale pine]

towards tuning

[twin quartz]

They made it so simple

[queen plinth]

I play feral aswell but feral is different

[azure thicket]

spreading rupture with a mouseover macro isn't that bad

it feels alright honestly very deliberate going into cds

[vale pine]

i think one of the most underrated things when it comes to enjoyment is always tuning

[limpid sage]

Rake spreading is the exact same wdym

[vale pine]

given all the things we discussed

[limpid sage]

except it generates combo points

[fossil forge]

I wonder If outlaw was broken like dk rn If people would play it because its meta

[vale pine]

ease of play, punishment of missplay, complexity, ...

[queen plinth]

U have aoe bleeds and spread a builder onto all targets which isn’t even high prio. As sub u build cp and spend that on a shit dot

[fossil forge]

Imagine all the little joes trying to learn outlaw

[vale pine]

if tuning is not done sensitively, you don't appeal to players

because, why on earth would i play something that does the same damage as a bm hunter

[azure thicket]

was city of threads good on sub rogue lol

[vale pine]

that does no damage if i make a mistake

[queen plinth]

Rake is a cp builder, rupture is a cp spender

[vale pine]

and means i need to think a lot harder how to play and adjust per encounter

which is basically what happened a lot during DF

and in part why subtlety ended up so low on play rate

[limpid sage]

that doesn't matter, you still spread rakes the same way you spread rupture

[queen plinth]

It does matter

Cause it feels way less shit on feral than on sub

[vale pine]

the irony is

rupturing does good damage on sub

i am still unsure why blizz did only buff it on assasisantion in one patch

[limpid sage]

I don't see the difference at all

[vale pine]

instead of just baseline

[twin quartz]

Rupture ticks during dance explode

[vale pine]

but i can feel its because of mimimimi of a certain group of people

[remote shuttle]

Was my best

On that season 🤣

[queen plinth]

I feel like outside cds rupture brings u from below tank dmg to a lil above tank dmg

[hoary latch]

Hello which talent could i swap in dung talent to get 2 vanish ? 🙂

[vale pine]

i think rupture is not bad

[remote shuttle]

Why u think u Need 2 vanish out of pvp as sub?

[vale pine]

a rotation only has depth to it if you don't use the same 2 keys all the time

and ruptue brings variation to it

as much as we disslike it

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[twin quartz]

I remember the rupture gamba in amirdrassil

[fossil forge]

Doesnt full rupture tick outvalue evis hella

[twin quartz]

Now that was annoying

[remote shuttle]

Oh? The real One? Chonky deja char?

[vale pine]

and lets be real

subtlety doing 1% more st

is a very weird way to justify only buffing rupture for assassiantion and not sub

[glad raven]

Hi guys been away for a while. When should i be pressing the netherprism trinket?

[hoary latch]

cause pug never let u stealth ?

[remote shuttle]

U don't Need 2, there are Better talents on classe tree

[queen plinth]

Rupture is a button that doesn’t feel good

[vale pine]

so the incentive was rly just to tone down people who complained that rupture did more damage on subtlety than assassiantion ^^

which can also be a reason

just maybe not the best

[fossil forge]

Its not like assas bleed has silence built in

[vale pine]

rupture damage would also help with sustained aoe

even tho only slightly

but lets just look

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7cxDXu9THPmeKegGGgEHyj

rupture opts for ~13% of our damage on 8 targets

so a buff would mean we do ~2-3% more sustained aoe

which would put it closer to assassiantion again, you rly see the 20% buff on this

(if its not obviouse from the screenshots, rupture is cast equal amounts on both, while subtlety has ~900k dps from it compared to the ~1300k on assassiantion. Making assassiantions ropture more than 40% stronger while it gives energy and funnel damage not considering extra benefits from stealth resets which would reduce the amount of casts and increase empowerment time)

[honest saddle]

And it gives energy.

And possibly attack power

[vale pine]

just to be clear, i don't think as rupture as a specifically good button on the spec

but for how linear it is in "does damage", it is undertuned heavily for that

[honest saddle]

I'd like to see it do something gameplay wise

But I dont know how. The spec feels complete

Maybe apply find weakness or something

[vale pine]

i don't know

i just think that for the design on subtlety, it is weirdly positioned

[opal basalt]

I really barely think about rupture

Have it running on my main target and that’s about it

[vale pine]

which is in most cases the best option

[fossil forge]

What If every 4th rupture was empowered

[queen plinth]

Make all ruptures explode/ rip even harder cause wounds got heavier from sectech after pressing secret tech for a few seconds

[vale pine]

rupture is also in a weird spot

where just not using it might be postive

and thats a consequence of what i mentioned

[fossil forge]

or casting rupture on flagged mobs should be empowered

[vale pine]

the focus on making rupture worse on subtlety

also rupture is such a small part of all things you can talk about and improve

if you look at the whole picture might be a ignorable one even

[fossil forge]

fix coup delay fix coup delay fix coup delay

[opal basalt]

Delete hero talents

Even better

[vale pine]

that one is a known bug and was reported multiple times

[opal basalt]

[vale pine]

so coup delay bug def. is on the devs watchlist

[fossil forge]

Actually bring back coup dash bug

[vale pine]

please don't

it killed me on queen

[fossil forge]

It took a bit until i adjusted

it was fun having a hunt on rogue

[opal basalt]

Wait did coup dash you to the target at some point

(I’m a baby rogue player and thus wouldn’t know)

[fossil forge]

It was a bug

[vale pine]

yes

basically coup uses the skelleton of dfa

and dfa did put you to the target

[opal basalt]

That makes sense

[vale pine]

so did coup, if you ended up otuside of melee range

so in a sense

coup is the new dfa

[azure thicket]

it would be nice if we didn't lose globals so easily

maybe sub could get acro as a treat

cause it hurts so much to miss two shadow strikes cause the mob wiggled and chased the tank like it feels a little too esoteric

[honest saddle]

Working as intended

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

that time was wild on ansurek

[chrome fern]

What I really want is shadowstrike to have a toggle where I can tell it to not fucking teleport me

[jade urchin]

what was the atrophic poison command

for the spreadsheet

[vale pine]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[jade urchin]

W tyvm

[vale pine]

there is also

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[jade urchin]

oh shit thats goated i didnt know

[limpid sage]

cba pugging anymore man

[short aurora]

Oh no i wanted to start it this weekend

[limpid sage]

ret pala doing 33% less dmg in ecodome refusing to press bress for 5 seconds

[short aurora]

Oh ret pala doing ret pala things

[limpid sage]

ye not easy for the keyboard to register inputs when it's covered in drool

[karmic harbor]

pushing without a 5man 💀

[fossil forge]

Works

you lose faith in humanity though

Having a premade tank iz life hack

[placid elk]

more like death from side

next xpac new ability death from bellow

[fossil forge]

Is that a pyke reference

https://tenor.com/view/pyke-league-of-legends-lol-league-execute-gif-15588945710113495876

[azure thicket]

at least with outlaw and assassin you could power through segments

this season feels like double negative if u get like a mm hunter doing 2m on a st boss

weirdly bloated season

[queen plinth]

3.3k only pugging

Can tell you I want to sectech my wrist every deplete

[azure thicket]

on the upside raid is giga fun wish we were doing 3 nights a week lol

[topaz egret]

i actually liked coup charge : (

[tepid trellis]

It is okay to be wrong sometimes

[lilac stag]

Stealthi gonna have ptsd

[topaz egret]

i swear it had its upsides

sometimes

but when it did it felt NICE

[native zodiac]

Coup charge on queen

[vale pine]

think everyone at least died to the charge once on queen

it had applications for sure

[shut ridge]

just the once?

[lilac stag]

I was yelled at for enjoying it as saying it was a skill issue.

[vale pine]

at least once ^^

[lilac stag]

maybe someday we get fixed

[tepid trellis]

Coup charge about as fun as playing outlaw. Full cbt

[azure thicket]

uhh shadowdust felt weird but also yaey cd on vanihs

[lilac stag]

Dust was amazing

Rip dust

[native zodiac]

Coup charge and the rs combo refund bug was truly something to progress with

[azure thicket]

ye def didn't get aoe rotation back in df

[lilac stag]

Now we have coup refund bug

fucking blizzard man

[native zodiac]

Wouldnt be fun otherwise if we didnt have one of them

[haughty mural]

I heckin love refund bugs

[native zodiac]

Atleast they keep the consistency of the bugs

[lilac stag]

Our Bm Hunter put black arrow bind to a foot pedal. He had to take it off as he was getting too tired playing.

[wet echo]

while we're on topic of controversial opinions, old RS was better than new RS

[vale pine]

i do like rs as it is now

i just wish rupture was stronger

because its atm again on the brink of being useless

[lilac stag]

Go play the dot spec

[haughty mural]

Id like it more purple

[native zodiac]

Kinda like how rupt is rn tbf

[vale pine]

@lilac stag well the thing is

[wet echo]

having 3 mobs, 2 are at 80% hp and 1 at 10% and you press rupture and it goes on the 10% guy feels like the talent is griefing you intentionally

[lilac stag]

I mean envenom simulator

[vale pine]

we use rupture just as much or more than a dot spec

i rather have it do 2-3 times the damage

and run longer

[lilac stag]

Great design eh?

[vale pine]

or spread faster

it feels weird having a spell you might not even use

[feral knot]

snd?

[haughty mural]

Would be cool to have it like restricted to one target but rs makes it erupt in dance

[vale pine]

is maintained passively now, so ye

[haughty mural]

So we aren’t a budget dot spec

[vale pine]

i did mention it earlier

rupture would increase our st output by like 1%

[wet echo]

make sectech spread rupture from primary target to all within 8 yds

[vale pine]

if it did 20% more damage

[lilac stag]

Tornado renamed chop suey. Rupture hits 8 targets.

[vale pine]

while still increasing sustained aoe by 3% at least

[feral knot]

go on

[vale pine]

atm spreading rupture just feels

not good

[haughty mural]

So a massive Single Target dot which would have a erupt mechanic for aoe

[lilac stag]

Which is perfect

[vale pine]

and it is because its a damage spell, that can be bad depending on talents/situation

[haughty mural]

So we don’t have this spreading thing

[lilac stag]

Take rupture out back

[vale pine]

beause of weak tuning

[azure thicket]

hemorrhage is just sitting there in the corner

[vestal escarp]

I missed Rant morning

[vale pine]

haha ^^

i mean if you put out rupture

the rotation is a bit boring

so it has a reason to exist

[lilac stag]

Goes along with backstab soup

[lilac stag]

Rupture really makes the rotation exciting…

[vale pine]

it gives you something else to do

[upper narwhal]

Given that Sub needs better singletarget rupture is probably the last thing that needs buffs

[north schooner]

rupture at least gives you something to do while gathering mobs in dungeons

[haughty mural]

Having a maintenance is not that bad

[vale pine]

rather than afking bs/evis

it adds depth

even if you disslike it

[lilac stag]

I’d rather drop rupture and go back to manual snd

[vale pine]

but the reason you disslike it is the damage

[short radish]

nah

[lilac stag]

No. I don’t want dots on a burst spec.

[short radish]

if rupture was buffed 300%

i'd hate it even more

because then im punished even harder for not maintaining it

[lilac stag]

It has zero to do with its tuning

[tepid trellis]

Rupture just need a Way to actually interact with our kit instead of just being a dot

[vale pine]

^ either that or more damage

[lilac stag]

Just make it interact with stealth and shadow dmg so it can bug out with everything else.

[vale pine]

it kinda does

already

[feral knot]

?

[vale pine]

it intercts with damage amps and deeper dagger

which is why rupture did initially more damage on subtlety

than on assassiantion

[placid elk]

i wouldnt mind i removed or a new finisher for sub only to be introduced

[lilac stag]

Delete it. Next hot take?

[azure thicket]

make haste good

[feral knot]

Bring back smoke bomb

[lilac stag]

That’s not a hot take

[azure thicket]

rupture ticks go up, money time with sub

[tepid trellis]

Each time rupture deals dmg your next evis does increased dmg

[native zodiac]

Sectech clones apply rupture to a target that doesnt have one already would be sick but would prob be realy buggy

[tepid trellis]

Fixed

[feral knot]

just a take

[north schooner]

no more tasks for akaari please

[fossil forge]

imagine instead of rupture u would have your own bloodbeast proc

How pog would that be

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=273418/nights-vengeance

[lilac stag]

Just replace it with hemo at that point

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/wait-what-meme-wait-a-minute-gif-14484132

[tepid trellis]

Almost same

[vale pine]

NV was great in bfa

but rupture was also doing a damage amp

[vestal escarp]

57????

[vale pine]

its wowhead tooltips

its just a static amount

also, who knows

[native zodiac]

What if they made rupture constantly apply FW when its on

[vale pine]

maybe 57 dps is a lot next xpac

[feral knot]

57 > 0

[tepid trellis]

I want it to be on dmg ticks so it scales in AoE and adds some sneaky funnel

[vale pine]

we will in fact get a squish

i would love to get the sylvanas dagger effect

instead of goremaws

it would add funnel/execute to the spec

[lilac stag]

I would like og goremaws and wm

[vestal escarp]

Eon was just dmg and no interaction

[vale pine]

wdym

it interacts with combo points

also does shadow damage, so can benefit from things like deeper dagger

[north schooner]

it could also work like Fatal Intent and accumulate a damage bonus, except actually do nonzero damage

[lilac stag]

If it was a talent, it wouldn’t do shadow dmg.

[vale pine]

XD

[tepid trellis]

It wouldnt work

For the first 4 months

[vale pine]

4 months years

[feral knot]

and then they would buff hunter

[azure thicket]

idk giving most funnel classes kit to encourage sending adds into boss

not a sub issue specifically but ye

[vale pine]

funnel was well designed on subtlety

it had a very clear trade off

those that got funnel in DFA/TWW just got it gifted on top of what they have

and have no trade off

[north schooner]

funnel having no drawbacks is moronic ye

[vale pine]

which is i would argue bad design

ofc the ones that play it

love it

you can't argue that having no weakness is not a great position to be in

but purely game design wise, funnel as a trade off makes more sense similar to execute or other high profile niches

[haughty mural]

We will never get funnel again

Let’s be real

[vale pine]

the dev team did decide its a sin niche now

[vestal escarp]

We would if we could play ds

[vale pine]

so ye

we won't

[north schooner]

they can also decide to no longer be the case anymore

[vale pine]

don't think we had one example in the last 2 xpacs where something like this happened on rogue

[vagrant fulcrum]

nah we want old enh style funnel with every rupture tick stacking buffs onto next envenom or sectec

[north schooner]

sure, but we can cope

given the assumption that midnight rogue will get more attention

because it cannot get much less than tww

[vale pine]

the only spec we know will get attention is outlaw

[vestal escarp]

Also i meant that as a capstone eon would just be dmg and some weak flavor of funnel (pressing bp would trigger it) and it would compete with other capstones based only on its tuning, while if goremaw has to go id rather it gets replaced with something more interactive with sepc as a whole, preferably ape since it's adjacent to dark brew

[vagrant fulcrum]

we got attention in s1 tbh

[azure thicket]

i really don't get blizzard wanting the big player base on a few classes

[haughty mural]

Outlaw will get midrange like the new DH spec

[north schooner]

true, but both sub and assa have rough edges which haven't been touched

[vale pine]

talents get changed if they are problematic, but outside of fixing dust because it was problematic not much happened

[azure thicket]

outlaw really enjoys a 678 offhand for making trash explode and a trinket out of raid

void reapers contract also in s1

[vestal escarp]

And the "attention" we got mid s1 in anniversary patch was just continuation of tww start of expac changes, at least i belive so

[azure thicket]

it's a hard class to play <:p

[vale pine]

i don't know if thats the case, or just a phenomena of problems in their internal structure

inherently, don't assume intend on something that can be attributed to incompetence

[azure thicket]

true, maybe they all just think death knights and hunters are cool to develop right now

which is fair

[vale pine]

maybe its just

there are more players

so they have a lot more loud voices

and blizz is stuck in a situation where everything burns

and they don't know what fire to put out first

outrage makes it seem like one spec or class has more problems than others

e.g. you can see it in this discord

a lot of people now say assassiantion is unplayable or has the most amount of bugs of any class/spec

[fathom adder]

i think you can maybe assume they want to change sub with the talk about "accessibility", but maybe not. We will see. I have the feeling the whole 2 130 cds, this that might be on the list of them regarding the buzzword

[vale pine]

when this is just a phenomena of someone with influence highlighting it

[azure thicket]

did a 14 halls with bleed assa and it was legit a free key until my internet cut out

[placid elk]

lol we 4 manned a floodgate and almost timed it after tank rage quite for dying once

[azure thicket]

it's a particular thing heh

[vale pine]

similar to what i discussed earlier, the assumption that arcane mage is by far the most difficult spec because of their rotation

which simply isn't true

but got repeated enough to make people look down on you if you say otherwise

[lilac stag]

[vale pine]

my point is, perception of the game is very important

and always relevant

[lilac stag]

just as in life

[vale pine]

ion even mentioned it in the interview

they don't do tuning based on numbers or metrics

but on feelings (perception)

if thats a good or bad way to doo it, i can't judge

[lilac stag]

we feel sub is too competitive jumping to 5th spot so we’re insta removing the mistaken 5% feels

[azure thicket]

man this is ancient but as far as i remember sub had a not great reputation going into wrath before being giga broken with honor among thieves

[north schooner]

was that in a recent interview?

[azure thicket]

which gave combo points based on sub rogues in the raid group sending finishers so basically shadow blades

[fathom adder]

iirc that was just a bug multiplying with other rogues

[azure thicket]

ye

[vale pine]

it was the presentation on gamescon or so

the one they looked back on the game

[north schooner]

I see, I don't remember that part

[vale pine]

and ion made a point about how balancing does not increase player happyness

showcasing a wcl from classic

vs. a modern wcl statistic

[frigid aurora]

It def isnt, i started to try to learn sub and i main arcane, sub makes my head explode verh much

[north schooner]

I do remember him showcasing that the differences are smaller now

[vestal escarp]

Dumb comparison tbh

[queen plinth]

Make shuriken storm/ shadowstrike apply rupture to 1 target when u have rupture on onetarget already

[vale pine]

and then continued with something along the lins, that they changed philosophy away from certain metrics towards trying to make people happy, so more or less based on what they use as precived balance rather than actual balance

[vestal escarp]

Insane

You're actually dropping some bombs fuu

[haughty mural]

SV has something like that

[vale pine]

and you also saw this iin season 2

subtlety was in the wfr

and not precived as weak

tho suddenly it was bottom of the wcl charge, least played spec in the game and worse performer

[vestal escarp]

What even is the source of this "perception" ???

If not data

[frigid aurora]

Reddit posts

[vale pine]

who knows

it could be data

it could be their personal preferences

[vestal escarp]

Devs personal experience with the game?? Popular content on twitch like big streamers and race?

[vale pine]

i like to play arcane mage

and arcane mage is only mid on wcl

migth need a buff

like inherently, we did not get much inside of how they tune

it became more of a black box if anyting else

because, wether if its good or bad

if you state that you use certain metrics, people can have a anker point of reference

[lilac stag]

The old warlock dev trick

[vestal escarp]

Bur they said they're feelcrafting it

Jesus

[vale pine]

i mean they don't directly say that

its just how you can interprete it

and they have a good point too

if we look at wcl

the statistic averegs over all figths

there is a point system to lower the impact of the fights with higher damage output

but in general, its just "how much damage compared to others on average"

now warcraftlogs also audits logs, and removes certain damage from them

e.g. things that are seen as "padding" are often removed

[north schooner]

I think you are talking about this talk fuu https://www.wowhead.com/news/20-years-of-warcraft-meeting-players-where-they-are-376972

[vale pine]

i am not judging here, it might be relevant or not

but it can be that up to 3 or 4 fights of a raid get such adjustments

so the dataset we see on wcl

is already manipulated

the majority will just look at it and still use it as a metric of power

[north schooner]

supposedly blizzard uses their own data (maybe in addition to wcl who knows really)

[vale pine]

and then there is raid design.

they very likely have their own wcl

[vale pine]

^ this is very important

raid design can be very single target oriented

e.g. in s1 and s2 DF

or very specific and benefitial to certain specs/niches like s3 DF

this means, that wcl will very much just show how well your spec is on average on the current deisgn of the raid, but not rly give you any idea about balance in a more broughter term

[north schooner]

"At the end of the day, there's no indication that a player is happier being only 4% behind now as opposed to 12% behind 15 years ago. Perception is what matters, and in a live game, the goal is to balance how people feel, whatever the actual numbers say. Rather than seeking a static endpoint, the approach now is making frequent touches to reign in the high-end at the start of a cycle, then buffing stragglers over time."
This is from the talk you referenced. They don't even do that as often as they imply here.

[vestal escarp]

Ok tbh this all feels like classic talk

[vale pine]

exactly, thanks for the quote

its up to interpretatin

[north schooner]

wdym classic talk

[placid path]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[north schooner]

he is talking about how their development evolved over the years

[azure thicket]

idk going off wcl top parses is also just a slice of the game, those people hitting 100s have people around them doing perfect mechanics the entire pull

if everyone else is doing adds on vexie and the udk gets to hit the boss 3:45 out of 4:00 they're gonna get a hundo

or dang near close

[wild hornet]

yeah to that its like stix for outlaw, outlaw isnt top tier spec by any means but compared to every other spec it just shits on everyone in that fight

[north schooner]

it's not like blizzard is balancing based on 99th percentile (nor do they have to)

[vale pine]

you can more or less find even more shortcommings about wcl

[wild hornet]

yeah obviously, you tune the game for the average guru, not the top players

[vale pine]

if you look at the top end, especially china loves to sell parse runs and top guilds often set up similar things for their players

then there is externals

which are in the statistic by default

[wild hornet]

especially cause the top players have the will to adjust, but the average player might stop playing if their spec looks bad or not fun

[placid path]

Stupid question, How come on hakili rotation helper some times on aoe it tells me to use Backstab instead of Shuriken storm. is it like a dps window where you want to use it over shuriken on aoe?

[vale pine]

its a small optimization, can ignore it if you want

[wild hornet]

yeah, i wanted to check which spot my plexus log was at, half the logs had blessing of seasons

[vale pine]

blessing and kill timers obfuscate things

[placid path]

ty

[wild hornet]

during shadowdance once for danse macabre (only once), or <3 targets

[north schooner]

even if you ignore externals etc you have specs with high variance also making things misleading

[vale pine]

think thats not that big of a problem

because subtlety by itself is higher variance

and we still get somewhat consistent results

[placid path]

oic so it's just for the small % boost i get.

[wild hornet]

i feel like the higher variance to consistent results is due to sub not having weird "big cd procs" like for wings, ascendance or whatever they have

[vale pine]

its because of procs and crits

e.g. think of your opener

if you get coup very late in it

your damage will suck

compared to when you get it early

[wild hornet]

yeah theres quite some optimizations you can do, as fuu said you can skip if you dont wanna do them

still gonna be doing nice damage

[north schooner]

to clarify: I am talking about whether they should balance on a broader amount of players rather than the very top parses. Variance becomes less of a problem the more players you include (without even having to include low percentiles)

[vale pine]

there is another problem with that

heroic is a glorified target dummy on most bosses

and it is a big part of any dataset

[wild hornet]

can you even get 4 coups in the opener

like not carrying over a coup for a cd set, i mean for on pull

with/without bl

[north schooner]

is there any evidence they balance around heroic though? (now that heroic week isn't a thing)

[vale pine]

you can get 3 secrets in the first 2 dances

^^

just saying, there are def. random factors

subtlety is not a static spec

assassiantion is more like that

[wild hornet]

i assume TFD, first 2 sectecs in first dance?

[azure thicket]

getting 3 refunds back to back is spooky

[vale pine]

yes, because of tfd if you get good procs

[wild hornet]

yeah sometimes my sectec either is sendable on 2 sec

[azure thicket]

also probably not supposed to do this but with coup refund coup can you shuri after for danse macabre?

[wild hornet]

or 0

[hazy breach]

Not sure what you mean

[azure thicket]

so you get a coup proc and send it, get combo points back right

[summer berry]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[azure thicket]

do you send that second coup with max combos or use a shuriken storm before sending the second coup

[hazy breach]

You would not use a combo point builder if you do not need to build combo points

[wild hornet]

pretty sure you do the storm only if you need to generate copo between each coup

if you get a reset you send the 2nd coup right after the 1st one

[azure thicket]

ye this plays into the bigger question i have, do you always shuriken between coups?

[queen plinth]

U shuriken storm only during blades inbetween coup no?

[wild hornet]

only during blades

[karmic harbor]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[azure thicket]

and definitely after the second coup just use shadow strike

[wild hornet]

sorry meant blades not dance

or if you can hit 4

[karmic harbor]

this waiting 10s meme is messing up my internal dance tracker for flag/blades

[azure thicket]

okay so it's only during blades

i was doing it at some weird times

[wild hornet]

its basically to be able to get max copo before sending the 2nd coup

[wild hornet]

^

[azure thicket]

ye wasn't sure if there was some interaction with danse macabre that was important there

[wild hornet]

you dont revolve that around danse

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[pliant gyro]

!prims

!prims

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[wild hornet]

for the one with lily - wouldnt it work if i just macro lily to blades and with 16+ stacks i just press prism before sblades

was kinda not willing to put myself through double on-use misery for 30k dps gain

but antenna isnt coming home so i might have to do that

[rough jewel]

Or 2 diff macros, one w lily and one with prism?

[wild hornet]

id probably have the biggest brainlag if i were to have a 2nd blades macro

im not sure where i can put it even

[wild vine]

Yes works

[wild hornet]

hmm, maybe can make shift t

[tulip gorge]

I am doing literally that

and it works fine

[wild hornet]

fair, but does simc use prism at the so-said 16 stacks or does it just alternate between them whenever

[tulip gorge]

if you play with lily I think it goes lily - lily - prism

with araz it's: araz - prism - araz - prism

[acoustic matrix]

actions.item+=/use_item,name=unyielding_netherprism,use_off_gcd=1,if=buff.shadow_blades.up&(buff.latent_energy.stack>=8+8*(trinket.arazs_ritual_forge.cooldown.ready|!equipped.arazs_ritual_forge)|!equipped.arazs_ritual_forge&fight_remains<=90)|fight_remains<=20

TLDR it doesn't use at 16 stacks unless paired with araz

[wild hornet]

Assuming in my case (i dont have the araz one) that I use lily (13 or 14, not sure yet), where would that script go, before the /use ?

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use item:212971
/use item:212265
/use item:212264

[mystic ether]

Am I wrong in saying sub rogues seem to sim extremely low?

[wild hornet]

for whoevers looking at this the use items are conjured, t3, t2 tempered potions

[tulip gorge]

do you really want to use tempered potion on cooldown?

[karmic harbor]

you cant put it in a macro

[wild hornet]

not always, but i sometimes forget to use them

so i just shoved them in a macro

[karmic harbor]

that's the action priority list for sub, just telling you what the robot does

lily+blades macro, prism+blades macro is what u have to do

[wild hornet]

okay i am very slow

i was thinking i could shove that APL there

[tulip gorge]

or you could just do lily +blades macro and keybind prism separately

[karmic harbor]

and then when i want to use prism i have to press 2 buttons?

😤

[tulip gorge]

yeah

[summer berry]

!BS

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[karmic harbor]

ig you could

[tulip gorge]

at least that's how I play

[karmic harbor]

seems redundant tho

[tulip gorge]

araz trinket is nowhere to be seen

[karmic harbor]

same bro

[tulip gorge]

if anything loot has been criminal for my guild

[jade urchin]

dinars are my hope for araz trinket cause antenna is annoying me

[tulip gorge]

no mythic loomithar trinket drops

only one araz trinket

one prism drop

a shit ton of daggers dropped though

my guild makes fun of my mythic dagger collection

[jade urchin]

we had one dagger drop so far, i cant even show off my funny collection

😦

[tulip gorge]

last weeks 2 daggers dropped

[wild hornet]

thats my melee collection for now

[azure thicket]

low key no one wants forge except rogues and ? just looked and havoc/resto both are going naur loud style

[tulip gorge]

and besides that one dagger drops per week

religiously

[jade urchin]

boomkins like it

idk who else

[tulip gorge]

2m specs probably want it

[azure thicket]

did 15 pulls on forgeweaver tonight and low key hoping

[mystic ether]

Got hero Araz & myth track lily this week. Which one do I get? They sim pretty much the same with 1k difference

[summer berry]

Am I supposed to slam secret technique on cooldown, or only in symbols + dance (if possible) ?

[azure thicket]

heroic reclear everyone else is looted except for boots so kinda excited for monday

[hazy breach]

Youre not wrong, because in singletarget scenarios like the sim sub does horrendous damage

[tulip gorge]

just look at fractillus

[mystic ether]

Is sin better on pure ST?

[hazy breach]

Barely

[karmic harbor]

if you mess up using sectec outside of dance it's really bad, so just use it in dance

[mystic ether]

So rogue is cooked in single target bosses?

[tulip gorge]

it's the best ST rogue spec but still bad overall

[hazy breach]

You can look at fractilus logs to get a clear picture

[remote shuttle]

We are under aug

[hazy breach]

Yeah but fortunately none of the hard fights this tier are really singletarget

[remote shuttle]

Last of the list

Ah here's the list 🤣😭

[karmic harbor]

didnt know priest was so bad huh

unlucky

[hazy breach]

Theyre in the same boat as us

[wild hornet]

priests arent good on st either

[hazy breach]

Cleave too stronk

[jade urchin]

priest is ranged sub rogue

[hazy breach]

So ST must be weak

[jade urchin]

literally

[hazy breach]

But their burst is weaker

[mystic ether]

oooof

[hazy breach]

So amps doesnt save em

Like it kinda does for us

[wild hornet]

honestly

[jade urchin]

most amps are bait i swear

[wild hornet]

what if spriests have insane st and aoe

[summer berry]

ty

[wild hornet]

wouldnt that be cool

[jade urchin]

i feel like weve been there before multiple times

[wild hornet]

bring back mindflay oneshot

[mystic ether]

Any thoughts on this please?

[jade urchin]

u have netherprism?

[mystic ether]

hero yes

true should've said that

[tulip gorge]

if it's mythic vs hero, mythic always wins for me

[wild hornet]

thats true unless its a case like spymasters

[tulip gorge]

I think lily might be bis for assa and good for sub

[mystic ether]

but 2 1.5 min on use tirnkets are very awkward to use, no?

[jade urchin]

i think its araz angle cause with more gear u get more diminish return on mastery from lily

but im really not sure here

[mystic ether]

When would I use lily/prism?

[jade urchin]

i feel like it doesnt matter whcih one u pick

[violet palm]

Can someone please explain why lily+prism sims better, but everyone is using Forge+Prism?

[mystic ether]

Probably because of when to use them? @violet palm I can't for the life of me figure that out

Araz can be used for first cds, so that you get prism for 2nd & 3rd usage

& then araz again

[jade urchin]

forge+prism is good for fighttimer divisible by 3 for that full prism send

[mystic ether]

But I have no idea how to use a 1.5min on use trinket with prism

[jade urchin]

also maybe cooked stats

[tulip gorge]

I use the 1.5m trinket until I charge the prism to 18 stacks

then I send the prism instead

[jade urchin]

idk i feel like you just take araz and save urself the headache

[violet palm]

That I know. And it doesn't answer a question why not lily+prism

[tulip gorge]

forge is way more burst than lily

[jade urchin]

i feel like ur stats might be cooked cause its not sending me on lily ever vs forge

[mystic ether]

Alright will do that. Is there a macro for it that prioritizes Araz over Prism when it's available? or just like /use araz /use prism?

[jade urchin]

make 2 separate macros

else ure fucked on bosses with downtime

[tulip gorge]

you can just

/use 13
/use 14

put araz as your first trinket

[mystic ether]

Alright thank you

[jade urchin]

thats really bad to do

imagine ure on 18 stack netherprism and send forge cause u had a 30 second downtime in fight

[tulip gorge]

personally I would still have a separate keybind for prism

[violet palm]

Could be, yes. But it even sims passive Sigil+Prism more than forge

[jade urchin]

sigil sims really high for me too, but pure single target is not really a thing anymore

so its kinda bait

on loomithar its goated tho

[wild hornet]

hear me out

[lilac stag]

Good combo tbf

[violet palm]

My initial theory was that myth forge is easier to get than lily

[lilac stag]

vault rng + who needs forge from raid

and trinkets would actually have to drop from raid

[wild hornet]

i have a lily but im still in denial of using it

[jade urchin]

we had 3 mail boots on soul hunter 3 times in a row

loot rigged fs

[hazy breach]

Weve had 5 leather boots from fractilus over 3 kills

No prism

[jade urchin]

we are 0 prisms too so far

but like 5 from vault

couldnt be me tho

[wild hornet]

we are bout to prog frac sunday

but i have heroic prism so im 100% sure im not getting that myth one

[lilac stag]

it’s going to a hunter

[jade urchin]

fucking hunters

[lilac stag]

they’re blasting hard

Our stocks starting the decline

[jade urchin]

i liked my 1 week of blasting when getting 4set + hc prism first day of season

was the most fun week of my life