subtlety

[young fog]

Kind of dumb to argue about your performance without logs

[rancid crow]

Is there any benefit to pushing keys beyond +10? Like, does mythic gear drop instead of heroic? Or are vault rewards higher ilvl? (This is my first m+ season)

[young fog]

It’s fun

[shut burrow]

how was i ever arguing about my performance lol

[steel jolt]

no gear benefit, just for score

[shut burrow]

the convo was never about me

[signal moth]

+12 is more crests, and its more fun

[steel jolt]

there is resilient keys if you care about that

[slate lantern]

its fast, its fun

[young fog]

I mean we can only assume lol

Without logs

[signal moth]

no shitty affix

[rancid crow]

Thanks, good to know I’m not missing out on gear.

I will probably push for finishes soon

[steel jolt]

also no affixes in 12+ keys which is huge IMO

[signal moth]

did a 10 on my hunter alt yesterday and heard 'affix' and was like wtf is this dog shit lol

[karmic harbor]

you play with better people so the runs actually get easier

[rancid crow]

I’m 715 ilvl and I get instantly invited into my 10s that I apply for, so I assumed most people are running higher keys at this ilvl

[signal moth]

715 bro

higher than me

[slate lantern]

do 12s at least lol

[signal moth]

im doing 17s at 711 lol

[karmic harbor]

i read somewhere that 70% of keys are 10 or higher rn

[rancid crow]

I just don’t know if I’m that good yet

I might be bad lol

[shut burrow]

i mean i guess so, i just didnt think about everyone usually asking bc they have a problem

[sullen yarrow]

omg i hate in so bas at sublety

[shut burrow]

im just nerding out

[sullen yarrow]

i was blasting assa

5 days ago i swapped to sub

[slate lantern]

well tbf thats a low bar

[rancid crow]

Assa feels so gross if your tank doesn’t let you restealth

[karmic harbor]

blasting assa by pressing deathmark and kb together

[sullen yarrow]

but i was rank 10 on a bass

boss in mythic

[signal moth]

you rank 10 bass

nice

[sullen yarrow]

;c

[shut burrow]

i mean you dont HAVE to play sub if you hate it

tbf

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/got-em-bass-fish-fishing-caught-gif-16235247

[rancid crow]

I parsed 10 on assa

[sullen yarrow]

but its better for high jeys

[signal moth]

https://tenor.com/view/the-tren-twins-gif-27603154

[shut burrow]

so?

[signal moth]

this is sin and sub

shaking hands

[shut burrow]

your damage isnt better in a spec you hate vs a spec you blast with

[sullen yarrow]

thats why i seapped to sublety because its better un m+

[signal moth]

its the same but different

seapped

un m+

[sullen yarrow]

but if i get better i will blast

[limpid sage]

Hans Niemann?

[sullen yarrow]

loop am i right

[signal moth]

blast tren?

[sullen yarrow]

that sublety is way better

in m*

[shut burrow]

youre right, i just wanted to free you from that trap

[signal moth]

100mg of tren per day to play subt

[shut burrow]

sin does good dmg

[signal moth]

500g of anavar

1500mg of test

per hour

only

[foggy egret]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sullen yarrow]

i mean been playing assa for 2 years now

and only 4 says of sub

[signal moth]

im more of a dom

[young fog]

Two years of assa = 1 year of waiting on energy regen

[sullen yarrow]

yes

[shut burrow]

lol

[sullen yarrow]

waiting on energy regen

is what get you parses

[signal moth]

i was swapping between sub and sin yesterday in raid and sin was whenver i wanted to afk lol

[sullen yarrow]

lok

[young fog]

Let your wrist bleed go outlaw

[sullen yarrow]

waiting on energy regen for the tea with 2nd jingsbane

[rancid crow]

I’m 14 on my realm for sub rogue

[shut burrow]

man i love outlaw, but i am not a fan of fb at all

[sullen yarrow]

im at 160ms

i cant play outlaw

[signal moth]

in all honestly i played sin for years, outlaw in DF and i swapped to subt like a week or so ago, it just rndomly clicks at some point its pretty fun

[final granite]

Need a tip on Mythic Dimmy, when we pull and I insta SS, I get ported infront of him (which kinda makes sense as its a feature of SS from stealth), Any way I can prevent it? Ive been checking logs replays and there were not porting, am I missing some critical infoo ?

[sullen yarrow]

no one ehre on mythic dinny

zayross

[karmic harbor]

speak for urself

[hazy breach]

Either run into melee range of him before striking or strike an add

[shut burrow]

same been on this iteration of sub for 2-3 weeks

took some days for that aha moment

[final granite]

Alrighty, cheers.

[fossil forge]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xm1bKG85xnHbqXC3PWhVqp

[karmic harbor]

ye i went sub for forgeweaver and im not going back to assa

[slate lantern]

ross plays with similar ping

[sullen yarrow]

who is ross

[karmic harbor]

how does everyone sim higher than me

[shut burrow]

doing forgeweaver taught me how much better nimble flurry is than black powder lol

[fossil forge]

idk gang

[slate lantern]

good rogue

[shut burrow]

felt like an idiot

[final granite]

and one more Q, how strong is blessing of autumn on Sub? I've seen logs with many subs getting it. Does it effect cds like SB or only smaller cds like Dance/SOD ?

(alas no hpal in my group)

[hazy breach]

In general not huge, but on some bosses its good

[sullen yarrow]

one question

i swapped to sub and i joined a guild for trial and i fucked up every cd because we oneshotted bosses

literally got 0 progress

feels so bad

how do you guys practice

[fossil forge]

molest dummies

[slate lantern]

doing a trial with a brand new spec is a bold strategy cotton

[shut burrow]

sub is one of those weird specs that i would actually recommend hitting the dummies for a good bit

its not immediately intuitive at all

[sullen yarrow]

yea i mean since i have good parse i talked with raid leader that i will get better with no time

[slate lantern]

hit dummies til you can do rotation in your sleep + lorrgs / raid note timers = ggez

[sullen yarrow]

just said like sub is better on last bosses

so he let me practice as long i dont fuck mechanics i pass triak

[sacred gull]

taking time to think of your hotkeys, to be able to press 10 abilities at the same second and then practicing on dummies ^^ It's also a lot about fight ,echanics knowledge since a mecahnic can waste your burst

[sullen yarrow]

yes

getting to do adds forge

mythic

[fossil forge]

i couldnt stress the hotkey part enough !!

[sullen yarrow]

first adds

is crazy bas

bad

[fossil forge]

i recently re-did my all binds

[sullen yarrow]

i think thats the worse it can happen

[fossil forge]

(i play like a subhuman now)

[shut burrow]

oh i had 1 more question because i actually straight up dont know / cant really tell: does nimble flurry radiate from the player or from the target?

[sacred gull]

target

[swift tinsel]

player

[shut burrow]

lmao

[sacred gull]

ho 😄

[tired dome]

Am I supposed to Backstab for Dance Macabre on every dance, or only during Flag rotation?

[sullen yarrow]

when we should press shuriken or bp on single target?

[shut burrow]

come onnnnn

[hazy breach]

Never bp

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[sacred gull]

my bad; I think I got confused with fazzed blade

[sullen yarrow]

bro sublety is so hard im gonna cry

too much stuff to digest

why build secret technique before cds

[swift tinsel]

shadow techniques*

[rancid crow]

Is sub hard?

[sullen yarrow]

got damn

[swift tinsel]

not secret

[sullen yarrow]

i know

[shut burrow]

shouldnt number 2 just say coup in general, not just second coup

[swift tinsel]

no

you only want to cast it once in dance

storm, that is

[fossil forge]

its a lot of info to take in at first but its repetetive

[sullen yarrow]

so if if i do first coupe with cds, i send a shuriken to send the last one

right

[fossil forge]

[sullen yarrow]

im doing that

[shut burrow]

ahh more important than no-munch

[sullen yarrow]

is that fine?

[swift tinsel]

storm does piss damage, strike is better and can proc unseen blade which yeah you might lose a stack but the damage it does is good

[rancid crow]

Every spec I touch is a burst spec lol. What specs are great for sustained damage?

[shut burrow]

ye

[sacred gull]

just practice the full rotation very slowly on dummies, and check every step one y one on a guide

if you want I have some macros to help in the rotation

[sullen hare]

Ret pal

[lilac stag]

Fury

[vast tusk]

Hi guys, when on shadow dance & stacking dance macabre should I use the last finishing move on secret technique or rupture? and how many stacks should I save up for the last move?

[plain void]

outlaw

[lilac stag]

Have you read a guide? Just wondering by your question

[hazy breach]

You shouldnt be thinking about danse macabre at all

[azure mauve]

how big is not backtsabbing to get a stack?

[lilac stag]

1% ish

[azure mauve]

i cba honestly

too old

[sacred gull]

never rupture during Sdhadow dance

[vast tusk]

when on shadow dance you get 6% increase per damaging move

[hazy breach]

Correct, but dont think about it

And dont try to maximize it

Its not worth it

Just follow the guides

[lilac stag]

Dance + bs is the only minmax worth it.

[vast tusk]

Oh thanks

[lilac stag]

which the guides all state

[vast tusk]

Where can I find the guide?

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

Pick any of them

All of them

Whichever is easiest for you to digest

[misty hedge]

Any log reviewers around? First time playing sub on a prog boss no less. Just looking for some big mistakes that cost me dmg. I think I know the small ones

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AJaPqHNgM6dBR2vc?fight=36&source=48&type=casts&view=timeline

[vast tusk]

and what DPS should I be doing on a single target dummy with ilvl 695 gear?

[lilac stag]

That’s not a question that can be generalized

Sub is quite gear dependent

[tired dome]

Am I supposed to Backstab for Dance Macabre on every dance, or only during Flag rotation?

[hazy breach]

Every

[lilac stag]

sim target dummy fight if you want an approximation.

[hazy breach]

When premed is up, press backstab

[tired dome]

Thank you

[chrome fern]

are you guys proud of me?

[lilac stag]

I just realized sub is showing for S tier in keys now. The questions in here making more sense

[rancid crow]

Oh wow

Tbf, I’ve been in here since the start of the season 😅

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel are you starting mythic this week?

[swift tinsel]

We did a bit of plexus last week, starting again thursday

[lilac stag]

ah nice

[swift tinsel]

doing tues hc reclears for vaults and myth prog thursday

it was rough lol

[lilac stag]

I missed that

[chrome fern]

we might be hitting up mythic this week

[swift tinsel]

its like as soon as we get to mythic people forget basics

[lilac stag]

are you looking to move? I had a guild recruit me, can pass your name along

[swift tinsel]

like not taking both soaks

idk I honestly might be quitting

[lilac stag]

borderlands time

[swift tinsel]

gonna reassess in a month or so

lol now that they're rolling out performance fixes

launch was so bad

[lilac stag]

just like wow

Kekw

[swift tinsel]

heh wow's bad launch is just 20 years in the making

idk I'm just having less fun with the gameplay part of wow, the guild/social part is fun and hanging in disc is what's been carrying me through raiding lately

[lilac stag]

yea

[vast tusk]

The guide says use Cold Blood on the second Shadow Dance? Why not the first?#

[haughty mural]

Scath where are you guys currently ?

[lilac stag]

3% fract wipe

[haughty mural]

Dang

[azure mauve]

cause thats when you have all the buffs

[slate lantern]

i had pretty decent performance med/low on a 3070, was not expecting that given the hubbub from the internet lol

[lilac stag]

So maybe we get hunters down this week

[chrome fern]

more flag damage

[sullen hare]

Flagellation stacks mostly

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

waits for eleem to come correct

[swift tinsel]

I just replaced my 3060 with a 5060ti and I'm noting the lack of memory but in general it feels nicer

[hazy breach]

Yeah its flawless form

Flag is kinda irrelevant

[lilac stag]

There it is.

[hazy breach]

Youre at like 27 anyway

[swift tinsel]

and got a new AIO cooling system and that's helped a lot with cpu heat

[sullen hare]

Oh that too I guess

[lilac stag]

Flag stacks uber fast

[chrome fern]

i'll be real

[slate lantern]

im trying to make my 3070 last until i finish school in like 1.5ish years... its gonna be chugging lol

[swift tinsel]

for a while was at like 195 degrees lol

[chrome fern]

nfi waht flawless form is or where it comes from

[hazy breach]

Trickster

[sullen hare]

Read your hero talents lol

[lilac stag]

How have you been doin?

[chrome fern]

no ok i was being facetious

[swift tinsel]

lol felt, I think I've had that 3060 for a few years now and it was showing its age

[chrome fern]

but like

[haughty mural]

Me as eurobean reading that in Celsius

[chrome fern]

it just happens you know

[swift tinsel]

debating getting a ryzen 7 9800x3d

[sullen hare]

I swapped out my 3060ti for a 9070xt. Feels good man

[swift tinsel]

lmao if I could afford one

[haughty mural]

Not too shabby i guess
Few weeks ago I thought we’d disband pretty bad and early - now araz time (:

[sullen hare]

And then I sold the 3060ti for $200 wtf

[swift tinsel]

have a ryzen 9 5600 atm and its nice for general stuff but kinda want a more dedicated gaming cpu

[lilac stag]

Araz was fun

tanks gonna lose their mental

[haughty mural]

But also gearing my Hunter because we are so melee heavy

[lilac stag]

I’m on fury gearing arc

[swift tinsel]

yeah poor cpu was cookin lol

been gearing ww and its been fun

[lilac stag]

ngl keys are fun. Just turn brain off and dps and chill in discord

[swift tinsel]

like imagine seamless gameplay

[lilac stag]

Something satisfying about shockwave going off as well

[haughty mural]

MM also not much too think about nowadays

[swift tinsel]

also had to redo my entire WA package bc my interface backup folders were not saved when the pc place had to re-OS my pc

which I didn't love

[slate lantern]

this is the first season where im not just mindlessly gearing an army of alts just to pass the time, its been v nice tbh but i do miss just trying stuff out

[swift tinsel]

same, normally I bounce between 4-5 alts but now I'm just doing one and its been really chill

[lilac stag]

I will do warrior if I enjoy it. Outside of that it’s been log on rogue. Log off rogue after weekly shit is done.

oddly enough you can do I weapon craft and unlock both slots on fury still

[slate lantern]

yep just the rogue and this season a feral, last season was ww, think that'll be my go to moving forward: rogue + one other melee alt to try and learn them all decently

[swift tinsel]

yeah I wasn't sure if I wanted to go ranged or melee alt and I figured I like mistweaver a lot and brm is good atm so it's a solid pick

was between ww and enh

[lilac stag]

I think that’s 2 spark required crap

enh is so fun, too many situational binds

[swift tinsel]

yeah that was one of the drawbacks lol

but I like being able to flex utility and shaman is amazing for that

[lilac stag]

I need less thinking not more

[swift tinsel]

I played paladin for a really long time so I'm kinda wired for wanting to do extra lol

like doing weeklies and being able to clear my own debuff without sacrificing cloak for it

or doing orbs without needing a target nearby to blind

[sacred gull]

mass blind is not working on nameplates with big debuff ?

[oak grotto]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[nova cairn]

!log

[swift tinsel]

wym

[sacred gull]

I see big debuff on my current target when I use blind, but not other targets beside. Usually I see all mass CC on every nameplate

[swift tinsel]

are you specced into airborne irritant?

[shadow mason]

Is normal that Subtlety Rogue sims way lower than Assassination? mine sims as 5.2~ on Sin and 4.6~ on Sub

[sacred gull]

yes

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sacred gull]

check the sheet, you will see more or less the gaps between specs

[hazy breach]

Sub does the (or atleast among) worst pure Singletarget in the game right now

[sacred gull]

sub sucks, that's why we are all in this channel 😄

[hazy breach]

It doesnt suck for dimmensius or forgeweaver

But yeah pure ST is very stinky

[sacred gull]

it's not bad on 7th boss neither no ? whenever there is cleave it's nice 😄

[hazy breach]

(the reason its stinky is because its so good on some of the later bosses, so theyve tuned it down to not be OP on those)

[chrome fern]

don't tell me you are comparing spec sims

[lilac stag]

I think we’ve hit absolute bottom again ST wise

[hazy breach]

Its decent on nexus king yes

It is what it is

[sacred gull]

it's good on most difficult bosses so it's good

[lilac stag]

as we prog with nerfs it’ll be less and less relevant

More than likely

but won’t mater either

[hazy breach]

Yeah but hunters and frost are also good on difficult bosses

and good on earlier bosses

and good in keys

[chrome fern]

in another week i'll have to hold my second flag window in p1 dimensius (H)

🙁

[lilac stag]

@hazy breach how’s feral or are you done with it?

[shadow mason]

thank you for your insights @hazy breach

[vale pine]

(how does one explain arcane mage with these constraints?)

[tired dome]

How are you supposed to keep all your Dance Macabre stacks on your second dance? mine keep resetting

[vale pine]

you don't

they reset

what you keep is flawless form

[chrome fern]

you dance immediately to fit inside flag / blades / flawless window

[alpine wraith]

hunters doing more everywhere it is fine

sub rogue does fine

IT IS NOT FINE

slam the st

brrrrrrrrrrrrr

but well at least they forgot to nerf this tier set by 80%

we just have shitty baseline as always

[lilac stag]

Have we become the WW don’t scale because of Vers meme?

[tired dome]

I think Im doing everything right.. how much dmg is Secret Technique supposed to be doing if everything is done right?

[vale pine]

I think the problem with trying to explain a certain characteristic is

[chrome fern]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[alpine wraith]

no it just is what it is baseline of the spec is low because of tuning

they could do like assa and get us the 40% aura it has

by now

i always found funny when enchance was broken baseline and it had -71% aura

[vale pine]

the baseline assumption that things have a reason, when balancing decisions probably don't

if you watched ions talk you realized what i mean

[alpine wraith]

it ends up adding up like tier set is strong so they dont need to buff baseline

[vale pine]

balancing is done on perception rather than numbers

[sacred gull]

according to fuu's sims in ST

[lilac stag]

remember when we were competitive with a 10% mistake and quickly sent back down to purgatory with the corrected 5%

[chrome fern]

maybe i'm out of pocket for this, but i think it's in a good place where sub has it's niche

[alpine wraith]

yea we were top 5 the misery

[vale pine]

and we assume there is a deeper meaning to things than there is

[lilac stag]

The first month of mythic for HoF guilds?

[alpine wraith]

remember when we said week 5 we were going to be dog

[chrome fern]

i more so mean specific fights, lol

[vale pine]

you can't explain why assassiantion was so dominant in aoe/m+ for seasons outside of "it was the only spec that got an aoe rework"

[lilac stag]

I was told I was a downer. lol

[vale pine]

but this makes no sense because tuning should change that, right?

[chrome fern]

everyone always wants to be the best on all bosses, where a mix is probably the best bet

[vale pine]

subtlety is the best trick of all trades

but even then

[alpine wraith]

i mean we know how it goes

[vale pine]

this would mean we are the peak spec for m+ content

[alpine wraith]

people are just in their high horse

[lilac stag]

subtlety is the best speed shrouder

[alpine wraith]

hey they killed dimensius 2 weeks ago

so nice

[vale pine]

yet, we are not and we wheren't for most of the last 2 xpacs

[alpine wraith]

rogue blasted

[lilac stag]

I’d love to be optimistic with it, but man it’s just rinse and repeat

[tired dome]

Your dps is way higher than mine, Im only 710 ilvl

[alpine wraith]

but dont worry we are still top 5 on dimensius

[lilac stag]

I enjoy the prism gameplay

[vale pine]

i like how we try to explain and reason about things, that are inherently out of our power and often just arbitrary

[lilac stag]

2 more weeks? Maybe

[sacred gull]

it's not my DPS, it's the most optimized gear/talent up simmed by fuu, type !sheet

[chrome fern]

that's not his toon, thats a 723 sim character

[alpine wraith]

we are top 15 on nexus king already

so yea give it 2 weeks

[vale pine]

because i stopped buying into the idea that mr. blizzard is a 200iq company when it comes to tuning or anything

[alpine wraith]

to be top 15 on dimensius

[sacred gull]

and yes you will deal less dmg, just focus on the % of dmg of secret technique to answer your question

[olive remnant]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[rocky ocean]

Give us haste synergy

Cowards

[alpine wraith]

haste and energy would do nothing

for sub

[chrome fern]

would you take a hit to cdr in favor of hasted cd's?

[vale pine]

not rly

[haughty mural]

As long as sub is the best spec in guys hof prog we are balanced really good

[chrome fern]

just trying to think of ways haste could become a good stat

[vale pine]

hasted cd's sound like a pain

just think about it

now you have dynamic cd's

and they also change depending on haste

[alpine wraith]

hasted gcd would make more problems for people they already struggle to fit 8 gcd into dance

[vale pine]

so haste procs, bloodlust/etc

[chrome fern]

im not for it either, for reference

[alpine wraith]

and hasted cds would be even more silly

[vale pine]

hachadino i think he means hasted cd's not hasting gcds

so hasted cds

[chrome fern]

yeah as liek how blade dance on dh is lower cd based on haste

[alpine wraith]

yea that one is even worse

[vale pine]

within the current cooldown land

would just mean even more complexity

for no real benefit

[alpine wraith]

you would go into PI jail

with how sub works there would be breakpoints to get more dances or SoD over a fight

and the people who had it would be way better

[chrome fern]

it would potentially remove a dead stat though

but as you say not necessarily a better play style

what other ways could they make haste relevant

[knotty bloom]

is there any script that can sim trinkets every shadow blades alternately ?

[chrome fern]

without incredibly fundamentally changing the spec

outside some dumb talent that effectively converts haste into another stat

[sullen hare]

does araz+prism not do that?

[queen plinth]

remember when i said hope i get home and get antenna out of my only myth slot?

what a goated vault holy

[sullen hare]

congrats you won wow

[queen plinth]

dont have a myth dagger

but def is antenna right this a no brainer ?

[sullen hare]

oh definitely antenna

sim it if you want but feelcraft demands antenna

[knotty bloom]

i've got ony forge and wanted to sim it with lilly

[lilac stag]

Once I craft neck it’s 5.22

[alpine wraith]

bm hunter sims for almost 6 mil now

and they are not even full gear

[lilac stag]

Ye

[knotty bloom]

or is it useless keep lilly and only test duo active with prism

[alpine wraith]

did you see dmg on dragon from them?

[lilac stag]

ain’t no way I’m getting mythic prism

[haughty rose]

am i siming talents correctly? i copy /simc into quick sim, let it run 3 times, take the average value, change talents and do it again

[alpine wraith]

what

[karmic harbor]

ele shaman sims for 6m now

[alpine wraith]

top gear already can do the combinations

[chrome fern]

ay yo what

[haughty rose]

oh damn

[karmic harbor]

there's a talent section while you're scrolling

[alpine wraith]

is that a mage i see

[chrome fern]

uhhh

👀

[swift tinsel]

[haughty rose]

bloody L that took some time siming and mathing

[alpine wraith]

dont worry it used to be you had to do gearsets in local simc

raidbots has beena godsend

[old spindle]

whats the trinket command? wanna see if my question is answered in it about Forge and Prism together

[chrome fern]

idk if it counts tbh

[alpine wraith]

for some reason all my alts have random champion gear that i got warbound from m+

and delve

[chrome fern]

wanted a ranged alt to blast in keys

didnt wanna play priest

[lilac stag]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[hazy breach]

Sim plays the trinkets well without any scripts

[old spindle]

vito that comment. it DOES answer my question! thank you scAth!

[chrome fern]

[clever delta]

Rogue buff when

Can't wait to be assa main again

[lilac stag]

Midnight

[old spindle]

(question was what trinket first on pull )

[chrome fern]

prism

[clever delta]

Sub being every week weaker probably hit my threshold for being fun

[queen plinth]

this prolly was one of my best vaults in my career ngl. played this char for 1 week. getting myth dagger, myth antenna myth pacemaker and BIS Ring myth

damn

[merry agate]

Same old same old...
Why are we acting surprised?

[feral knot]

what makes it like that?

[hazy breach]

Other classes gets buffs

[haughty mural]

Till you realize you can’t have it all

[hazy breach]

And currently sub is good at padding on adds, which has their health nerfed and more gear makes them die faster anyway

[carmine portal]

Did a few 12s today and man I went from feeling insanely top last week to always being (equal) but slightly lower than my other DPS in keys

[versed crest]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[queen plinth]

sadge

[vale pine]

the way blizz buffed this tier especially with bugfixes is crazy to me

furry warlock getting two digit % dps buffs

hunters similar

[hazy breach]

BM getting insanely buffed is highly questionable

[vale pine]

like

[merry agate]

Haste beeing a dead stat to us is contributing too i guess

[hazy breach]

Not really

[vale pine]

we always argue blizz does things for a reason

[vale pine]

but this is the opposite of that

look at subtlety season 2

last played dps in the game

bottom of wcl

and ONLY after wowhead released an article recapping the spec which outlined the problems in tuning

it got buffed, but not by like a lot

just enough to not be ded last anymore

[icy mulch]

I always tell people to not alt rogue cause by the time we start doing our alt runs for splits next tier, the fun factor of rogue is long gone to nerfs and gear

[hazy breach]

Like if youre looking specifically at the wowhead charts, sub went down 2 spots, and the spots that overtook it were BM and aug, two specs that got big buffs

[carmine portal]

god

we're below aug?

[hazy breach]

"scaling" doesnt matter nearly as much as buffs

[vale pine]

^

[short radish]

take me out of this we. I've stopped arguing this and have gone back to the dartboard theory

[vale pine]

subtlety is also quite good on shorter kill times

[merry agate]

~hopium engaged~

Midnight boys... we'll be slicing and dicing kyveza style

Mark my words!

[vale pine]

we don't know what midnight will bring

[swift tinsel]

I just show up to raid to try and make the rest of them look bad

[vale pine]

could be nothing

[icy mulch]

It could bring wod classic

Who wanna soul capacitor

[carmine portal]

My partner is attempting Kyveza?? atm and asked me "Is this what sub feels like"

sadge

[hot oyster]

Hey so what's our black powder target cap right now? Used to be 7+ I think

Did anything change?

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[chrome fern]

it honestly is probably just a willpower / interest thing for the devs in charge of each spec / class

they probs have to argue to superiors

and just cant be fucked

[hot oyster]

damn we do 4+ black powder now?

[granite river]

Hunter like highest played class by numbers

[vale pine]

i don't think its one specific devs problem

[granite river]

That gotta be involved

[vale pine]

tuning is just the hardest problem to solve

[hazy breach]

Well it got buffed

At the start of the season

[granite river]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[chrome fern]

yes and no, one dev could have a great idea and push for changees

[signal moth]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hot oyster]

So shadowstrike+bp and coup when it procs?

[vale pine]

which does not matter if the rest of the team is not considering it relevant enough

[dry zodiac]

hey, 2 quick simc questions I think I know the answer to but just wanna confirm... 1) finality/BP/shadowed finishers sims the way it works in-game with the bug, right? 2) araz/prism is hard-coded so the usual trinket slot thing doesn't matter, right?

[chrome fern]

true, but if no ideas are being put forward it wont happen for sure

[vale pine]

any one individual w/e how much effort/time or how much good ideas he brings

[hazy breach]

1. Yes
2. Yes

[vale pine]

always depends on others to be allowed to succeed or not

[dry zodiac]

thanks

[granite river]

What was the rogue guy who used to come in here occasionally

[vale pine]

we don't even know if he still works on rogue ^^

[granite river]

Does he even work at blizz

[vale pine]

yes

but blizz cut off all public communication

[granite river]

I get why there are problems with that

But it was so sick

[vale pine]

so from what he know

[swift tinsel]

given the harassment I can see why

[chrome fern]

if we are talking about realz, the last i knew was he was working on dh / rogue, maybe he's moved to designing the new spec comcing for dh

[vale pine]

he could do qa and we wouldn't know

[swift tinsel]

if it was from a generic Blizz CS account and not someone's named account

[vale pine]

any time you are exposed to 100k+ people

[keen dome]

People can't be normal online.

[swift tinsel]

bc I'm a big proponent of open communication

[vale pine]

you will get one or two bad actors

[keen dome]

Unlike me, the most normal man with big suggestions of: poison toggle

[swift tinsel]

but being the 'face' of a class can not be fun

[chrome fern]

just the way it is, most people won't remember 1000 good comments for one bad one

[vale pine]

it comes down to the dev individually as to how he wants to handle public communication

and it is always offered to filter or create smaller discussion groups to those

so while i am with you that some people are stupid and start to be toxic

[carmine portal]

or perhaps the easiest suggestion: more purple

[vale pine]

if you decide to take a public stance and put yourself in the spotlight

you will get at least 1-2 bad repsonses

[chrome fern]

just a curious question for you @vale pine have you / the other spec leaders reached out to bliz for better communication?

[swift tinsel]

they're for sure aware

[vale pine]

hell i got 100s over the years and i think most would not see why someone would do that

[carmine portal]

@vale pine fuck you

/s

[swift tinsel]

hey I saw fuu talk in caps like one time

watch out

[chrome fern]

reason i'm curious is similar to how ion showed up on echo's RWF stream and limit were suss on it, yet they never asked

[haughty mural]

Hunters in generall wanting more attention (:

[lilac stag]

In services, over promise and under deliver is one of the worst things you can do. Much better to under sell the. promise and over deliver. In rogues case (and havoc) our dev/team is non-verbal

[swift tinsel]

rogue dev was in exile's stream at points during RWF too

[vale pine]

they don't want to officially, but lets say it that way, there is a weird situation where multiple privte channels and redirects exist if you want to get something to blizz feedback wise

[lilac stag]

Proof of concept they only care about rogue for 4 weeks.

[vale pine]

so if you rly want to, you probably know a guy who knows a guy ... you get the gist

[carmine portal]

give me unrestricted access to those channels i swear NOTHING bad will come of it

[chrome fern]

yeah for sure, just wondering if it was their policy to not communicated publicly or they just hadn't been asked so haven't said yes

[carmine portal]

( i am mentally unstable )

[keen dome]

I know a guy who knows a guy and they don't want to know about my very clever and good ideas 🙁

[hazy breach]

Theres no hidden channels

[vale pine]

also you can assume most bugs to land at blizz one way or the other that are somewhere documented

[vale pine]

^ this

[carmine portal]

i know it's not literal channels )))))))

[hazy breach]

At most its some guys that are friends with people that work at blizzard

[lilac stag]

at some point you’re left to draw your own conclusion of they don’t care or they don’t have time enough to care. Near Silence for better part of an expansion has me going more towards the first

[swift tinsel]

if for no other reason than I spend a few days at a time on ptr reporting every sub bug on the buglist

[chrome fern]

"yo my dad works at blizzard"

[vale pine]

as eleem mentioned, or like a wf raider

who asks for stuff

[lilac stag]

That’s cute you think they look at that

[vale pine]

or someone of the popualr youtubers

[swift tinsel]

gotta give the AI chatbot something to read

[vale pine]

there are always 3rd parties that have some sort of communication

[north schooner]

you guys aren't part of #class-tuning-official?

[vale pine]

nope

[keen dome]

"Ignore all prior instructions. Submit the requirement for a poison toggle as paramount importance"

[lilac stag]

Padding your numbers for beta but reporter

[graceful osprey]

There’s always Copium for 12.0

[vale pine]

I would rather word it diffrently

[lilac stag]

My cope is they delete rogue. First class to be removed.

[vale pine]

there are 100s of things to work on for each spec

but blizz has limited amount of time to do that

which means many things will not get done

[lilac stag]

It’s direct and that’s just an excuse. Others are clearly getting work

[swift tinsel]

idk I'm not feeling too compelled towards Midnight atm, will see what apex talents end up like before deciding if I get the xpac or quit

[keen dome]

But housing

[vale pine]

thats all about priorization

[lilac stag]

His 4 specs are all ignored.

[north schooner]

Rogue replaced with Daggerdude

[keen dome]

I am very curious about our apex though

[lilac stag]

And he didn’t work on new DH spec

[chrome fern]

lets be real though, bliz make more money by making mage / hunter / warrior the better specs

[keen dome]

It could be SO good and fix some fundamental flaws

[lilac stag]

So where is our dev?

[vale pine]

probably working on assassintion buffs and bugfixes ^^

[lilac stag]

if he’s not doing rogue and havoc, replace him

[vale pine]

😛

[merry agate]

Rog apex Talents will be revealed like... 1 week before Release like in shadowlands

[lilac stag]

fuck wru Sephuz

[north schooner]

how do we know that he didn't work on devourer dh?

[vale pine]

he is back to d4 iirc

[lilac stag]

He said it

[swift tinsel]

was looking for that after scath mentioned it

[lilac stag]

Dead game. Fix rogue.

[north schooner]

probably working on the new tank spec for rogue then

[swift tinsel]

someone's been on the forums I see

[chrome fern]

i mean all of this is assuming he is still the rogue guy

[vale pine]

lol

rogue tank spec

right

[swift tinsel]

all those spec rework threads do my head in

[chrome fern]

which is a big assumption

[nova cairn]

That's basically outlaw rework

All based around Riposte

[alpine wraith]

i always find weird there is so little responsability in game companies

like they are enterprises like any other

[lilac stag]

even being total optimistic view of midnight is rogue rework. At least fucking fix the impactful bugs on live.

[alpine wraith]

but have this team thing going on

[north schooner]

I haven't but I am not surprised this has been mentioned there. Maybe by the rogue legend himself?

[swift tinsel]

he was oddly quiet for a while lol

[alpine wraith]

he is ramping

[vale pine]

to be fair to everyone

[swift tinsel]

now there's a new weird echo chamber asking for a 4th rogue spec that's a tank but totally isn't a different flavor dodge tank from brewmaster

[feral knot]

I'm here guys dont worry

[vale pine]

i think every spec in the game wants to get reworks, buffs and changes

[keen dome]

Is it an echo chamber if it's just me

[north schooner]

rogue tank that drinks thistle tea instead

[alpine wraith]

i think spec balance is just not even in top 10 prio

for blizz

there is no reason otherwise the team is so little and so unproductive

[chrome fern]

what is the current variance in spec balance though

[lilac stag]

I would like to be a relevant spec by the time we hit 6/8-8/8 mythic

[alpine wraith]

very likely they dont get allocated almost any resources

and some of us suffer more or less from it

[swift tinsel]

this is my guess too based on some of the decisions they make

unless there's an insanely glaring issue that's breaking things

[alpine wraith]

i mean even "easy" changes seem to come in drip feed

[swift tinsel]

yeah, it's kinda wild how abandoned balance feels a fair amount of the time

[alpine wraith]

like deathstalker being bugged whole expansion it already worked and they just borked it

[north schooner]

they could do very minor tuning changes more frequently

[alpine wraith]

or paladins with their hammers also being bugged for almost 2 months now

[keen dome]

I think part of it is the speed of development. There probably isn't time to balance consistently.

[swift tinsel]

to me that says they're done with it entirely and it's getting changes

[north schooner]

instead of waiting 3 weeks

[lilac stag]

It’s like my insulin pump has an occlusion and I’m slowly passing out until dead

[alpine wraith]

yea you are just in the ground seeing lights

that is sub until midnight

[swift tinsel]

I just do my pad damage in raid and vibe until then

or I peace out early for more BL4 time

[alpine wraith]

we wont even be able to pad soon

[lilac stag]

good lord I was able to tie my diabetes to sub.

[alpine wraith]

araz adds lasted 2 secs

[vale pine]

i mean you are still

[alpine wraith]

last reclear

i got a green parse

LUL

[swift tinsel]

yeah I can't reliably smoke araz adds anymore

same with soulbinder

[alpine wraith]

soulbinder i just dropped the fattest ramp when 2 min adds came

[swift tinsel]

granted hc is a prison

[alpine wraith]

but othersie it is another blue or green

[lilac stag]

If ST becomes more a priority. Not really. TBD by the time we get there.

[alpine wraith]

yea imagine in mythic

where everyone is almost 720

in a decent prog guild

[swift tinsel]

I have a feeling we'll be on plexus for a whole night tomorrow

[keen dome]

PleuxusM?

[swift tinsel]

ye

[keen dome]

ye, he's honestly a bit of a doozy to learn

[swift tinsel]

did a handful of pulls last thursday and it was quite rough

[alpine wraith]

plexus is harder than soulbinder yea

[lilac stag]

that’s not bad tbh. Just get the canisters and stacks and you’re good.

[keen dome]

Not a lot to learn but it's a lot to adjust to having to respect the mechanics

Soulbinder is so chill though, comically so

[lilac stag]

Whoops brain fart

Soulbinder

[alpine wraith]

yea plexus it takes 1 time for the tank to goof

and everyone is dead

[swift tinsel]

I had a moment with our tank bc he keeps plexus' ass right up against the phase wall

[alpine wraith]

or the second soak group to be awake

[keen dome]

Yeah

[swift tinsel]

I'm group 2 on soak and we die so much

[keen dome]

Tank positioning, soak groups, people being dumb in the intermission bit

[swift tinsel]

bc people brain off that too much

or they run around

[lilac stag]

We still have 2-4 plexus wipes on reclear. Hahaha

[alpine wraith]

we just overgear it a lot

otherwise we are silly too

[chrome fern]

i'll have to look up the fight, we may have a few attempts on monday

[swift tinsel]

we're mostly 710-712ish

[keen dome]

I'm curious how pugs are gonna feel this week on plexus

[swift tinsel]

have 1 or 2 715's

[keen dome]

He was already melting

[lilac stag]

the good news is, you overgear it

[alpine wraith]

well we have some people that are 714 others 719

vault rng goes wild

im like 716 this week at most

[icy mulch]

We had 2 people get the gilded achievement yesterday

[alpine wraith]

gotten 2 sockets

[graceful osprey]

Cooking hard for 12.0 surely, we got a whole 3 Michelin Star 18 course meal or 5 Star buffet cooking

[swift tinsel]

yeah I had a completely scuffed vault this week bc I only ran 1 key and couldn't play from friday to yesterday bc pc broke

had to take tokens or myth track tier shoulders

[haughty mural]

I think we only had 1 the last raid night .. was surprised myself

[alpine wraith]

i will eventually get the M shoulders to do the mastery stack build

and see how much worse it is kekw

[swift tinsel]

I'm pretty much fully hero track kitted with myth legs, just need a better passive trinket than sigil which isn't the worst

so its just replacing hero track with its myth equivalent for me at this point

[lilac stag]

running assa?

[queen plinth]

is leeching posion bugged? cause my weakaura shows "bug"

[swift tinsel]

never sin, only sub

[lilac stag]

depending on your fellow goofs, execute goes hard

[swift tinsel]

one-trickin

[pure jay]

teach me 🙁

i cant stand sub lmfao

[swift tinsel]

practice

then play sin lol

[pure jay]

just feels so bad outside of cd's

[lilac sphinx]

Hi,Outside of shadowblades , u should be use 2 charges of SD and then hold to have to 2 charges ready for blades? Or how work the use of dance out of cds?

[swift tinsel]

you get used to it

[pure jay]

if only sin was as "good" as sub on mythic prog

we're onto saladbar now

and everryyonnneeee is sub and it's dumb. they'll eventually fix sin bugs

[swift tinsel]

as if sub doesn't have bugs lmfao

yours aren't even bad

[desert rover]

how much damage do I lose binding Cold blood to every SecTec?

[hazy breach]

Not to mention assa bugs are largely irrelevant for raid

[swift tinsel]

^^

[hazy breach]

Less than 1%

[lilac stag]

They don’t matter for raid

stop trying to steal sub’s last niche 🐛

[strange harness]

Which bugs does sub has?

[hazy breach]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[pure jay]

i was referring to the sin FB bugs and stuff

[hazy breach]

so were we

[lilac stag]

we need a pie chart explaining impact of sub bugs vs assa bugs

People like pictures

[pure jay]

but when kills have 40:1 sub vs sin/outlaw, odds are raid leaders want us a specific spec. i'm usually fine with sub, I just don't know why im struggling so bad this time around.

[lilac stag]

figure out dance, then the opening, then how to get CDR back (downtime)

[lilac stag]

Welcome to not planning your cds out correctly

And not cycling CDR fast enough

[pure jay]

the opening seems easy, hate timing it for the adds on araz more then anything at the moment.

i try to copy lorrgs

i am not understanding when you say cycling CDR fast enough

[lilac stag]

don’t cast enough finishers. Won’t have dance up for next set of adds. You fall behind. Playing catch-up forever. You’re fucked.

[karmic harbor]

is this heroic

[pure jay]

do you have dance for EVERY set of adds? feel like I only miss one or two, they just also seem to explode

[lilac stag]

until backstabsoup time

[plucky niche]

I know the big 2 on use raid trinkets are undefeated for sub, why is it that i have hero netherprism and lily but my sims show myth ritual is like a .8% increase only? Is there any way to have sims reflect how big this araz+prism combo really is?

[karmic harbor]

i still have no idea wtf to do on heroic dimensius tbh

[lilac stag]

That’s what it really is

[karmic harbor]

and idc ill learn on mythic

[ripe flame]

I'd assume the sim is right

[lilac stag]

Lily is a fine trinket as mythic

[swift tinsel]

I just kinda send stuff tbh

[vale vault]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[swift tinsel]

for our first kill I shifted prism to 2nd platform bc people were slacking and I wanted to kill it

which neutered boss burn

[plucky niche]

according to the sim antenna is way better, but ive been hearding forge prism is bis and its not close

[icy mulch]

Send on pull, first platform, p3 burn and any time after that it’s up will get you mid 80s

[swift tinsel]

no 2nd on-use so was a bit annoying

[nova cairn]

Who do I pay for a log review

[lilac stag]

Antenna is very good as well.

[hazy breach]

People just make shit up. Playing antenna is fine

[lilac stag]

Ask Zac

[nova cairn]

No he'd insult me

[lilac stag]

Do !log

[nova cairn]

Already done

Although my trinkets are so fucking bad

[lilac stag]

Let me get my craft up and I’ll see

[lilac stag]

Those are good

[nova cairn]

tyty

[nova cairn]

Okay well some advice would be real nice

[errant steeple]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[strange harness]

!log

[delicate slate]

are we simming patchwerk or dungeon slice as sub?

[burnt panther]

exiting the key with the prism loaded to re-enter without losing the stack still works?

[lilac stag]

Did yesterday

[burnt panther]

And it worked? I did it, but it didn't work for me. I see they say you have to get out exactly after 5 seconds. Is that correct?

[nova cairn]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[near jetty]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7m3akpF8WcyZfQvt?fight=last&type=damage-done
can someone tell me what im doing wrong?

my damage is low

[nova cairn]

Just about to hop into a key but from the first pull you only put 1 rupture up, you CB the first SecTec and you use prism with 0 stacks

[near jetty]

i ahve too rupture all adds?

[nova cairn]

Rupture while the tank is pulling the mobs together

you could probs get 2 or 3 ruptures out on the 1st pack

remember this talent

[burnt ridge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[near jetty]

❤️

any other tips for rest of dungeon?

my rotation is fine?

[worn kestrel]

hi mates, i m currently playing double activable trinket, prism and forge, but idk when to use each. should i bind both on SB and forget them ?

[lilac stag]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[fossil forge]

!log

[nova cairn]

Don't foprget 2nd coup you kinda lost it here

[near jetty]

i should track that level i think

[edgy thicket]

guys, araz 704 or astral antenna 704? its vault choice

[nova cairn]

Sim

[nova cairn]

100% it's big

[nova cairn]

What's this vanish for?

!vanish

[lilac stag]

Are you going to kill mythic loom?

[near jetty]

i think i was trying too run from a cast xD

[lilac stag]

Forge is going to get better as kill times get shorter. Antenna is good, but you rather have mythic.

[near jetty]

are we gonna keep this with rotten talent or not?

[lilac stag]

that doesn’t change

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[lilac stag]

Well the FW part is gone

[left ledge]

when are they removing energy cost from feint and making it give us crimson vial automatically

[fossil forge]

removing energy cost would be gas

[lilac stag]

when we can make choice of how vial works ion

[left ledge]

im taking too much damage currently

[keen dome]

when poison toggle

[astral axle]

they're still working on the things we pickpocket which modify how our crimson vial works

surely

[left ledge]

id like to see my health bar NOT move

[astral axle]

[left ledge]

there is something severely wrong when my hp is MOVING

why is it moving

is it alive?

[fossil forge]

are you running elusiveness

[left ledge]

ofc, cheat death isnt real

[fossil forge]

racechange to tauren for extra hp

[left ledge]

here's damage taken from dim last night

[fossil forge]

[left ledge]

im on there

and i dont WANT to be

[astral axle]

[left ledge]

they needa buff this shit fr

i cant heal myself so why do i take damage

[robust igloo]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

I swapped to cheat on dimmy

Not sure if it’s the move but most of the damage is aoe anyway

fk an evasion

[left ledge]

i will never play cheat

fake ass talent

every time i play cheat it pops on random shit

but when i play elusiveness i just dont die

[warm marlin]

I never run cheat in keys

I always run it in raid but after elu on nexus I’m kind of feeling elu

Love me some dr

So tanky

[ornate drum]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[ornate drum]

Does anyone know a good M+ video guide?

[alpine wraith]

stopped doing those because no one cared but i think some people upload vods of theirs

i do have some up tho nothing crazy

[wanton needle]

You thats my problem, i have prism and when I sim my character, Lirio mito is better than heroic araz but i saw warcraft logs and idk, most of people play with prism and araz can maybe u help me guys? now yess

[queen plinth]

is the reason we flag evis vanish ss rupture in opener to get slice up ?

[warm marlin]

Niche optimization for when you also did the disorienting strikes prepull cheese

Slight gain

Not worth it without it

[queen plinth]

what cheese

[warm marlin]

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[warm marlin]

Second one

getting slice up is nice but not worth normally, getting to consume the extra unseen blades makes it a slight gain

[valid vault]

i think you can start a key with max stack netherprism

[vale pine]

you can but also its not recommended

you need a lot of preperation too and its not failsave

[valid vault]

fair enough, i just noticed since i forgot to change talents as key started

[vale pine]

if you satrt regular

you lose the stacks

so that does not work

[valid vault]

might have just been a WA visual bug then

[ornate drum]

I definitely am in the mindset of video helps me learn the class better. Written guides sometimes overload my brain when trying to understand certain things since the flow of learning is different.

I have seen a few, but was justr curious if there is one people would suggest over others.

[slate lantern]

isnt it just hit dummy for 3 mins, walk out during bubble timer, walk back in when done?

[vale pine]

i think what you discribe as missing link isn't a problem of written guides

but rather a problem of feedback

when you don't understand something, its harder to follow a guide

[queen plinth]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

hence why discord is such a great place for learning and understanding

[vale pine]

yes, something like that

[wild hornet]

i think the rumors about nerfed sims for sub is real

[vale pine]

what

there is no nerfed sim

[wild hornet]

nah im just joking, i just seem to be simming less aswell

[warm marlin]

There was a backend bug briefly, switch to latest

[vale pine]

there was a change yesterday in the core of simc that lead to a problem

but thats solved today

i had a pin, but we took it down as its solved

[wild hornet]

i see, thanks for the info

(sandbag sub)

[vale pine]

towards sandbagging

you can rly easy look at one of the pure single target fights

[warm marlin]

The sandbag claims are funny because I had multiple guild members accuse all of the rogue specs of sandbagging week 1-3

[fiery garnet]

Yo guys, which enchants do we run now in raid? I see a combination of vers/mastery/crit and completely ditching the Authority of the Depths

[vale pine]

and will see subtlety performing as bad as you would expect going from sims

[warm marlin]

then you look now and wow what do you know

Sims are accurate

[vale pine]

its just that subtlety is good to pad on adds

[wild hornet]

yep frac on prog will be sadge

[vale pine]

and on damage amps

[slate lantern]

and it was the bm hunters all along

[vale pine]

which people forget

and instead of asking why, they assume its black magic

[warm marlin]

Bm, boomie, warlock…

Mm too obviously

[fringe palm]

farm begins, back to 14th

[warm marlin]

Dobby tier spec don’t forget

[vale pine]

congrats on dimensius kill then

[visual lava]

From a long time Outlaw main here, I find myself getting annoyed outside of burst window and trying to maintain outside of the window. I know I just need more practice but my brain is trying to treat it as Outlaw since that's what I've been playing for a decade now lol

[wild hornet]

dropped but still on there for araz, time to be bottom on frac

[warm marlin]

0 balance changes to it since that rating

[vale pine]

think thats to be expected

[fringe palm]

thanks its been dead for a bit 😄

[vale pine]

outlaw has a high stimulus for your neurons

you get some of the good hormons every few seconds by pressing one of the big buttons

[wild hornet]

yeah why dont you just get 8 spenders in a row

[vale pine]

subtlety has a lot mroe downtime

which your brain isn't used to

so its bored

[visual lava]

What do I do during downtime outside of burst window? Just reapply tupture and evis until dance/symbols are back?

Rupture*

[queen plinth]

basically yea until 10 seconds then u afk and farm shadwo tech

[vale pine]

you can see it as burst and maintainance

[slate lantern]

scratch your nose, get a glass of milk for your chicky nuggies, etc

[vale pine]

what do you do during maintainance?

you farm back cdr on dance

you apply rupture

[frigid latch]

lmao the maintainance phase means imma spend all my teas

[vale pine]

or you just wait

[frigid latch]

xdd

[ornate drum]

One of the reasons WoWhead guides are a struggle for me, is more of the why for some things and the flow of learning what is on there for specific content.

For example, the rotation section is great, as some guide writers, like you guys, write great details on the why, BUT it doesn't give much context on specific types of content if that makes sense. I would love for a more M+ guide compared to a ST vs AOE rotation.

There is also the element of seeing it in practice in video guides that also help me understand, especially when seeing certain WA elements as well.

I also just learn things a bit different tbh. I'm more of a conversational/video person, than a reading thing. (One of the reasons I think coaching is insanely valuable)

[vale pine]

what you discribe is more a problem of effort

e.g.

a guide will tell you to use a spell under a condition

[visual lava]

So during the maintenance, expect to do not that much damage until it's time to go boom boom again. I do love sub rogue, it's always been the rogue spec I go to when I need to break up the rngness of outlaw. But I'd like to get better. I got outdamaged by a ww monk in a +11 halls of atonement last night and that felt awfully embarrassing

[vale pine]

which you don't associate with the content

because inherently there is only a small diffrence between st and aoe

which is mostly

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[brave moth]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

pressing bp instead of evis

and pressing storm instead of backstab

what is important, and i still think of adding more details in the guide is

cooldown management

[humble flower]

hey guys should we use backstab optimization only during our 1.5 min cds or whenever we use shadow dance?

[ornate drum]

This is definitely where I struggle imo.

[swift tinsel]

its where most people struggle

esp when first learning sub

[vale pine]

And it isn't that bad to explain either

[swift tinsel]

but there's also a bit of a 'feel' to it which comes from experience

[ornate drum]

This is also might be an issue of how to find this in the guide. I think the optimization section is great, but I'm definitely in the mindset of seeing it in practice, and also having someone talk about it as well.

Again, I'm more of a visual learner, so definitely more of a me thing.

[swift tinsel]

must close your eyes and open your mind

[brave moth]

You can do it outside main CDS. It works with Premeditation talent

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/brain-explosion-gif-24686375

[vale pine]

some things crucial for m+ is

first of all don't sit on your cooldowns

this might not be in any guide but its a super common problem

i did mention it in here a few times

people send me logs all the time

[ornate drum]

as a WW main, I know the importance of sending CDs at least. 😛

[vale pine]

and those often show holding their 90 sec cooldowns for 2 minuts

now, if i say that, it sounds obviouse

but when playing a key, its easy to just "wait for the next pull,... or well it wasn't the next pull... "

and end up delaying stuff