subtlety

[wispy crystal]

I hope I got this right?

[willow bobcat]

Backstab before blades

[vale pine]

blades after backstab not before

so with secret

[wispy crystal]

Oh okay sure. Let me do that

[vale pine]

you dont want to waste premed

[wispy crystal]

Ohhhhh damnnn I've been wasting premed this entire time without realising

Sub has so many buttons to press

[sour forum]

Bring back dust

[vale pine]

think the current iteration is fun

[latent crown]

i just ran a droptimizer for mythic raid, according to my RL request. Turns out the simulation did not care to consider the forge as an upgrade. My secondary stats are pretty scuffed, but i'm guessing something's off with the simulations parameters. I would appreciate some insigts fromyou guys. thx in advance https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6sm24t3Q91cMcNCcqQHFRJ

[vale pine]

i wish blizz spend more time on finishing it

[ionic thorn]

Sub has like, 8 buttons?

That’s really not that many

[sour forum]

This tier set makes sub rly fun

[willow bobcat]

It will be an upgrade when you have Nether Prism

[vale pine]

use top gear instead, you can just copy/paste the gear from
#tc-research message

[wispy crystal]

So assas rogue netherprism is BIS for them too?

[vale pine]

dropoptimizer for trinkets is a bit weird

[wispy crystal]

As always I lose the netherprism roll to the assas rogue with 0 enchants, 0 gems.

I'm upset 😭

[shadow lance]

Me and my 40 binds feel offended

[sour forum]

Droptimizer just replaces 1 item at a time no?

[shadow lance]

Yes

[wispy crystal]

I'm on 36 binds now 😂

[ionic thorn]

I mean rotationally it’s definitely less than 10

[hazy breach]

But also people really overestimate how good the double on-use is compared to passives

[latent crown]

thx guys, i'll look into that.

[timid rivet]

i've question for antenna enjoyer, between burst window did we try to hold dance for an antenna orb proc ?

[shadow lance]

Fight dependent I would say

[hazy breach]

I wouldnt

[wispy crystal]

Is there any good resource or tips and tricks.

That sub rogues can do for Manaforge Omega ?

[hazy breach]

If you can yes

Or wait no

The opposite

[wispy crystal]

Eg. When to cloak certain mechanics.

Saving cooldowns to pump more DPS

[hazy breach]

You'd hold your orbs for dance

[timid rivet]

if its pure ST for example and you dont have to dance on adds, sectec up and dance up too we just try to hold for orb proc without overcap

oh ye you can kite orb too true

[shadow lance]

Why most of top logs sub use double use on 2 last fights then?

[hazy breach]

Because thats what people have

I was told double on-use was sooooooo much better on dimensius

[shadow lance]

Not sure of that statement

But you might be tight

[hazy breach]

But when im comparing my logs im absolutely not doing significantly less than the top logs

[wispy crystal]

Quick question: for mythic Plexus.

Do we send dance to kill the small adds during the gauntlet phase ?

[hazy breach]

Im doing more besides on platform 2 generally

[shadow lance]

No

[wispy crystal]

So we just backstab them and let the big plate boys kill them? 🤣🙏🏻

[limpid sage]

I mean downtime will automatically make araz superior no?

already pretty close with no downtime

[shadow lance]

Correct

[hazy breach]

Not really

A long fight also makes araz way worse

Because most of the value is having an on-use on pull

[wispy crystal]

Ty!!

For araz do we also save our sTec for when the adds spawn or just use it on CD?

[hazy breach]

But you hold dps for like 20 seconds in p1 anyway

[limpid sage]

hmmm true

[shadow lance]

I dance on adds spawn most of the time

[limpid sage]

donno if it evens out in the end

[hazy breach]

Especially if you kill p3 before you get your third flag of

[shadow lance]

I'm just a bit fucked with the first one that happens during my soak

[hazy breach]

Then whats the point of playing forge, you just end up sending it on a random ass dance

And losing 10% damage during the rest of p3 for it

[shadow lance]

We still progging it

Idk how it's not dead yet

[willow bobcat]

Ask to not be in the first soak 😛

[shadow lance]

I'm in the second

That is just after first add spawn

Or second

[hollow spear]

Eleem is just an antenna beast

[shadow lance]

No first after the big add

[wispy crystal]

Cool!

And we start saving cooldowns before the 3rd pylon is destroyed right?

So when boss reappears we can go ham with the damage amp buff ?

[hollow spear]

My uptime is generally quite ass

[hazy breach]

Pacemaker should be really really strong for dimensius too, would definitely play that if i had it in mythic

[short radish]

over double on use?

[hazy breach]

Im playing antenna

[short radish]

oh

ecks dee

[hazy breach]

But yes double on-use is massively overglazed

[limpid sage]

I simmed the diff between soleahs and pacemaker and they were even back when I got both in vault

I regret my decision to take soleahs

[vale pine]

think double on use main appeal is a simpler use

[shadow lance]

Tbh, I'm a passive trinket enjoyer, I would play the first MM trinket I get a second one

[north coral]

would you play myth pacemaker over hc antenna on nexus king as well? i havent tried pacemaker yet

[vale pine]

you don't need to consider holding stacks

[hazy breach]

Just hope we dont kill it on a shitty pull so you'll see the log

Well nexus timers dont line up perfectly for antenna like it does on dimensius

[shadow lance]

100% I would

I hate balls eating

[short radish]

not everyone has that fetish

its understandable

[shadow lance]

Fuck that shit, time to play outlaw

[timid rivet]

You think overall antenna or pacemaker if both myth ?

[hazy breach]

Specifically for dimensius mythic yes

[high grotto]

do we black powder on adds over 4 target in raid on forgeweaver/soulbinder etc

[vale pine]

you usually just evis

[timid rivet]

okokty ! and in m+ you think the same about double on use Vs Antenna or Pacemaker ?

[hazy breach]

I mean double on-use might still be slightly better, but its not like its dwarfing the passives, as playing with double on-use removes the flexibility of prism

Or atleast severely limits it

I havent pushed high keys this season yet but ive seen some sus usages of double on-use on top logs

[dull harness]

Hello guys, I'm new to rogue sub and try to optimize my dps. I've seen a great video from Jhordie, but there is one point that I didn't understand in solo target dps. Why at some point it's better in your burst windows to use shuriken storm instead of Shadowstike ? I think it has a link with unseen blade but still not clear for me. Thanks a lot

[hazy breach]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[brisk onyx]

i see zac is antenna+prism

like so good

[hazy breach]

Ye but he was using it in a very silly way

Just on every blades

[brisk onyx]

[timid rivet]

ok i see thanks Eleem ! I used prism like just use it every blades and never hold it for 18 but on big pull hold it looks way better

[frigid light]

macarbe stack maybe

you get 1 more and with shadow blades active you get max cp anyway

[karmic harbor]

you use it between coup to not proc unseen blades

with blades up or on aoe

they gotta fix this refund meme or i might kms

[dull harness]

Oh ok hopefully they might fix it it's still really complicated...

thanks guys

[remote shuttle]

SS shuriken bp sectec shiv evis dance symbols flag Blade rupture cheap kidney tornado backstab+ def like feint vial etc and moving likes spront step etc

Idk how u ended as 8 count...

Plus all macro at least other 4 to 8 macro Button

[sour forum]

so as some1 that couldnt drop a forge, on nexus king, where do u use your prism stacks? just keep using it every other blade. or do i aim to get ~20 stack for dmg amp?

[remote shuttle]

I trust u 100% about prism + passive being very solid, but bud, at least in m+ prism+forge Is very nice to use, u Always choose what to do, never waiting or depending on rng

It Just feels very good because u have full control (except dying and fukin up prism)

I'm Just sad atm i haven't drop an antenna at all so i wasn't able to try It with prism

[timid furnace]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[timid furnace]

The current wowhead guide actually just tells you to do that (besides the first usage), or am I misinterpreting that

[vale pine]

it even says that you can combine it in a macro

^^

[timid furnace]

ye but Eleem sad thats a "very silly way" in the message I quoted

or am I dumb

lol

[vale pine]

macroing has the dissadvantage to lose control

so if a fight has a big damage amp

you want to get 18 stacks of prism on

you lose out when using a macro

also double on use can't be macroed well

but in general, macroing prism with blades is perfectly fine

if you want a macro and still the control

you can also use two macros, one with trinket and one without

[timid furnace]

I get that, this just made it seem like it would generally be silly to use it on every blades

but thanks for clearing it up :)

[queen gyro]

hey guys, im coming back to rogue after 4 expansions not playing it. Sublety feels like it has ALOT of buttons or is it just me?

[vale pine]

think thats exactly what we discussed ^^

[vale pine]

it is a bit rough to learn, but just take your time

[queen gyro]

Should i macro in like Cold Blood with something ?

[muted oriole]

no, keep cold blood for your second secret technique in your cds

[vale pine]

you can macro it to secret, but keep a 2nd bind with only secret because you want to delay it for your 2nd cast during shadowblades

[lilac pendant]

!embelishment

!crafting

[alpine wraith]

!pedro

both of those are in guides tho embellish are kinda whatever

but most people crafted weapon and then other things like wrist/shoulder/ring/amulet depending on needs

[lilac pendant]

yeah the embelishment is what i have doubts

i see 3 being used

[alpine wraith]

ascendance+banding or double lens works

even double dawnthread if mainly for m+ but you will need 2 leather items

[brisk onyx]

You can relax, he means that it is better to maximize full stack prism in some situations like nexus/dimensius with damage amps

[timid furnace]

not sure what you are trying to get at, I'm not mad, I'm just trying to understand it myself

[brisk onyx]

I was just trying to explain the context of the conversation you saw.

[hazy breach]

Theres no rng and i have no idea why it would be "always choose what to do"

You press forge or you press prism

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[hazy breach]

For the context of the boss not having it stacked up for the big damage amp and using it during the phase where you need to stop dps a lot was the "silliness" i was referring to

[grizzled sphinx]

coup de grace prog execute before sec tech or after inside shadowdance and blades? ty

[timid furnace]

"you can relax" was just kinda weird idk

But all good

[hazy breach]

Its always flag>rupture>dance+symbols>backstab>blades+sectech

Like the guides say

[remote shuttle]

Does antenna have like a pattern on activations or it's total random?

As said i still didn't drop antenna

[hazy breach]

I mean sure

But most of the power comes from the passive agility

[brisk onyx]

English is not my native language, so I'm sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

[remote shuttle]

Antenna procs are totally rng? Or there Is something like a pattern?

[hazy breach]

Nah they rppm like most other things

[remote shuttle]

Ops sorry wrote double

Ye i see ty for info bud

[hazy breach]

But the passive agility is like +8% by itself, the remaining 2-3% is the crit procs

[limpid sage]

"you can relax" as in "no need to worry"

[scenic plover]

Has anyone got a pov for nexus king mythic that i could watch for progress?

[karmic harbor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzWrcsyEpNk i watched this

he gets autumn tho i think

[scenic plover]

Ty

[fossil forge]

I used to pray for times like this just so i could rhyme like this

https://tenor.com/view/hello-yes-bank-money-cash-meme-funny-gif-22727448

[carmine portal]

Currently running this statline (I have a T2 Vers pot on atm), I feel like I'm lacking a lot of crit compared to other (albeit higher ilvl) Sub rogues.

Any thoughts?

And in terms of item upgrading im hoarding gilded atm bcus I have 3xMyth slots in my vault

[rocky ocean]

Too much haste

[carmine portal]

That's exclusively from the fact I have tier-shoulders atm

(picked them as HC tier from 2nd week vault)

I don't raid with a guild so yet to get Loom shoulders

[alpine wraith]

you can use crafted shoulders like i do

[carmine portal]

This is a fair point

[alpine wraith]

was also not lucky with loom ones

[karmic harbor]

if i told you, you dont have enough crit what would you do?

[alpine wraith]

even after several weeks of killing it

[grim pewter]

does anyone have the cast sequence macro for symbols that keeps you from double pressing it?

[karmic harbor]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[alpine wraith]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[fringe palm]

crit is probably really good rn if you sim enchants/gems

[carmine portal]

Crit pot/maybe full enchant/gem crit instead

[limpid sage]

do you play on a macbook air

[alpine wraith]

crit is good in general when you have more gear

[karmic harbor]

can't you just sim that?

[alpine wraith]

but usually chaos is better anyway

because of the extra power from pot

[grim pewter]

ty! any idea what the /cqs does in the macro? just curious. never seen that one before.

[alpine wraith]

just a cast secuence thing i dont have it on mine and it works fine

[carmine portal]

Nada

why

[limpid sage]

oh just because the screenshot was very pixelated and I got nostalgia from when I played on mine xd

[carmine portal]

I have my snip-res really low as I have like

1000 of them in a folder lol

[limpid sage]

oh I didn't even know you could change that

[carmine portal]

ya

[grim pewter]

huh... macro isnt working. it casts symbols once, then never lets me press it again.

[fringe palm]

it doesnt let you for 2sec after you used it. thats the point of it

the timer resets when you press the macro again

[carmine portal]

Kk so TL:DR: Craft some shoulders (maybe) and full-sim crit ench gems. TY lads.

[grim pewter]

i just was coming here to say i figured this out. I could see that in very nieche cases flubbing u over. will probably set it to a 1 sec reset. very useful still non the less!

[fringe palm]

might just be crit/vers ring instead of mast/vers craft

[fringe palm]

there are 0 scenarios where youd use symbols again within 2sec

[magic coral]

Hey, a friend of mine is playing sub rogue but I think he is doing something wrong in his rotation since his overall is meh. Last time i played rogue was in legion so I'm not realy of help there and can only speculate.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AFRBKkQ7y9tahjTc?fight=last&type=damage-done
If someone would be so kind to check over this log and tell me something he can improve in rotation wise that would be a great help.

[grim pewter]

ive had 1 or 2 ocasions where I've sent an extra symbols on BP in aoe situations during my cds prior to my 2nd ST, if its during say an 18 stack prism.

[iron plover]

oh man that’s a bit of a mess haha

[karmic harbor]

what if i want 6 supercharge stacks for dimensius dmg phase

[chrome palm]

it looks like he is sending his cds off cd

he needs to review the burst sequence and know when to hold cds

basically he needs to totally review the rotation

too much to go over at once

[iron plover]

Symbolled twice here

[magic coral]

ye we noticed that he uses shadow blades and flagalation unsynced and i think he fixed that but its not that much better now:
this was +10 halls

[fringe palm]

then you can still use them 2sec apart

[karmic harbor]

has he read a guide?

[karmic harbor]

but it is a scenario...

[grim pewter]

with the dmg the mm and dh were doing i can tell u he wasnt getting the benefeit of his full flag ramp which will def hurt overall. sub really enjoys pulls that give u enough time to setup, do your full 30sec dmg ramp burst and then chill. in lower keys it will often feel like you're doing your setup far too slow but in reality your other dps are just pumping front loaded dmg too fast for u to get the chance to practice ur rotation at all.

this was happening to me last week when i rerolled sub. tell em to practice the wowhead rotation on the target dummies and punch some lfr bosses until the rotation gets fluid.

[magic coral]

yes but i think hes trying to think around corners too much and thinks he can do it better 🙃

i told him to review wowhead guide rotation again

i legit looked at the guide for 3 min and was able to tell him that he used cds off sync

[iron plover]

He keeps sending sectech outside of shadow dance/symbols

[karmic harbor]

this might be a war crime

[remote shuttle]

10s are bad for sub dps wise... Think from 12s things get better

[magic coral]

but i tought this couldnt be it since hes playing rogue for a long time now

[karmic harbor]

sub burst is insane, this guy just has no idea what he's doing

[chrome palm]

on a basic level subtlety does damage by sycnhronizing its cds, your friend isnt doing this at all

like here he doesnt use symbols of death at all and his secret technique is in the wrong place and he just stops casting for a bit after hittingb lades

too much to cover he needs to actually read a guide

[iron plover]

And tell him to stop rupturing while dance/symbols are active too

[karmic harbor]

the sod into 5 bs and rupture

[iron plover]

Yea ^

[karmic harbor]

[iron plover]

that’s rough

[chrome palm]

if he is a new player he might be trying to use symbols of death for energy or something

[magic coral]

he was always an assa rogue player tho

[iron plover]

but the upside is there’s a lot of dps to gain

[karmic harbor]

that makes sense

[magic coral]

he started playing sub lately because imo assa is not that chill to play in pugs

[grim pewter]

flag lasts 24 seconds, the final 12s being the most important. its entirely feasible in +10s that stuff melts before u get to do your job ive had it happen to me several times. my fdk blasts overall in 10s better than my rogue when farming vault.

but also yes they're doing their cds wrong. my point still stands, its hard to practice your rotation when stuff dies too fast. he should go hit training dummies or lfr bosses, something that'll live for more than 20sec.

[karmic harbor]

flag doesnt work like that

[magic coral]

aight thanks for all the quick help haha. Ill talk to him and tell him to review the rotation guide sigh

[karmic harbor]

as you gain stacks in flag, you gain the damage buff immediately and it stacks incredibly quickly

[chrome palm]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[fringe palm]

packs were alive long enough in that key

[chrome palm]

this is a good picture of what the big cd sequence should look like for comparison @magic coral

[grim pewter]

ughh yay I keep making tiny mistakes in how the abilites work so I get nitpicked despite my point still standing that rogue does all of our damage in our 90s cds and outside of that we hit like a wetnoodle, therefore losing ANY uptime (due to the pack being DEAD) is going to harm our overall dmg..

[chrome palm]

also minor thing but he is just taking 5% more damage because he feels like it

[karmic harbor]

if you're really playing with blasters tank should be pulling bigger anyways

i pug 10s, my dmg is fine

[random hare]

This talent is insanely important for high m+

[grim pewter]

my point was, as someone who literally just rerolled to sub and tried to learn my rotation in keys, not on dummies, it sucked. when i started practicing on dummies, it was less overwhelming and i learned quicker 🙂

its very overwhelming trying to hit ur buttons right when everyone kills stuff so quick. 😛

[random hare]

I always do my practice in keys

[chrome palm]

energy reduction on sap and shroud cdr more important

[karmic harbor]

whatever works for you

[grim pewter]

ye, it was just supposed to be an "out of the box" suggestion for their friend. since everyones got diff learning styles.

[karmic harbor]

Sure. I just disagree that stuff dies too quickly in 10s, this was 10 floodgate playing with two geared ppl

but i think this guys problem is he wants to be a theory crafter and is ignoring guides

he has to get over that otherwise hitting a dummy wont matter, maybe if he tries following the guide rota on a dummy and sees it does more dmg

[grim pewter]

totally agree. once that became apparent I knew my suggestion wouldn't do much. I know that all the advice that was being given was the same stuff that didn't help me when I came here asking for help on sub so i tried giving the advice i wished i had been given instead. cus my dmg looked about like that when I started last week lol.

[magic coral]

yes i would agree on that

[grim pewter]

also my "geared" dk was hitting around 10m overall in flood +10 for vault farms. i can definitely tell you that packs were melting in 15 seconds some pulls.

[acoustic matrix]

you guys manage to fit 12 gcds in the first dance ?

I can't for the life of me, I'm spamming as fast as I can

Could it be ping/input lag ?

[hazy breach]

Why would you want this

Just hit symbols earlier on the platform so you can build sht as well with the symbols

[acoustic matrix]

Is it even worth it ? unless you're sitting at 3 charges ?

[hazy breach]

Well you are

Or would be rather

[acoustic matrix]

You don't send at all on add ?

[karmic harbor]

what if im at max sht

[hazy breach]

Yes ofc

[hazy breach]

Did you do 0 damage to the second set of adds

[karmic harbor]

im jk was a meme suggestion

[hazy breach]

ic

But yeah anytime you would want to double symbols, you probably shouldve symbols earlier instead

[hazy breach]

Send 2x dances/symbols with cds once you land, then another symbols+dance on the second set of adds, then a natty symbols to build sht and save supercharger for amp

Thats for mythic, no idea how it works out on hc now

[acoustic matrix]

hc is all over the place tbh

Depends too much on your group's damage

[grim pewter]

so just wanted to check. with the way buffs pandemic, 30% of the duration adds to the buff when recast. up to 130% orig duration. so earliest you'd wanna recast symbols is with aprox 3 seconds remaining duration to not lose any value in the buff.

[acoustic matrix]

ye you can recast symbol but you rarely want to do that because you want to buff your secret technique

[hazy breach]

Correct, however using your sectech asap when its up again outweights the lost value from a second or so of symbols

so you generally dont really think about symbols pandemic

All you care about is making sure that your secret technique is supercharged

And it will naturally not waste much uptime (if any, depends on procs)

[grim pewter]

ye, its just neet to watch how all the bits and pieces interact as you move through the rotation.

3rd sectec inside flag basically only exists if you get a "the first dance" right or is there a secret sauce to that? is there a special number of shadow technique charges u take going into flag to make it happen consistently?

[hazy breach]

You just sectech when its ready

[runic hull]

Quick question, im simming all the postions, oils and foods to se the best option for my current gear. For this sim should I do dungeon slice or what setting are more advised?

[vale pine]

if you want to sim for the raid, patchwerk

for m+ dungeon slice

[azure crown]

what can be improved for st

[mint violet]

What's symbols and sht interaction?

[cursive mason]

poison your weapons

[karmic harbor]

err run a quick sim and see how close you are?

[flat summit]

hi, new on sub spec, any ideas for improvements ?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qhpVMaRm4j9b8Qdy?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=2

[karmic harbor]

you keep pressing symbols twice

and you probably want to use prism with flag/blades

[lofty cave]

This a 14 eco timed +2 how my dps look for sub feel like it’s still low idk smh 🤦🏽‍♂️

[flat summit]

what do you mean ? ^^

[karmic harbor]

https://www.take-a-screenshot.org/

[flat summit]

oh !

it's very unfortunate.

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[hazy breach]

I should bother updating that so it includes double coup

Oh you removed it

[karmic harbor]

lmao

[flat summit]

thanks guys

[karmic harbor]

i saw it had no coup and was like "is this out of date"

[hazy breach]

The opener is the same

[karmic harbor]

@flat summit your opener should look like this

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter besides one eviscerate icon being replaced by a coup icon

Its random how many shadowcraft refunds you get anyway so not sure how helpful those graphics are

[flat summit]

I macro both, it doesn't seem ok according to your screen

[hazy breach]

Well if you look at the second use

Youll see why

[flat summit]

I see

[azure crown]

how much should a ST dmg be on average

[iron plover]

Is the 1st coup guaranteed?

Sometimes I find I only get to 3 stacks of unseen blade

[vale pine]

you don't want to macro symbols because yur 2nd secret might be delayed

[acoustic matrix]

I guess you can macro dance to symbols but not symbols to dance

[iron plover]

1 natural and 2 from sectech

[flat summit]

yeah

about netherprism, mostly with blades?

[acoustic matrix]

Only with blades

[flat summit]

first pull included ?

[acoustic matrix]

If you don't have double on use yes

I mean it won't matter

[flat summit]

I have Lily in bags for my sin spec

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[flat summit]

I'm starting with sub, I imagined playing with seaforium to simplify at first

[acoustic matrix]

If you want simplicity you can just macro prism to blades

[iron plover]

But then no fat 18 stack prism :(

[flat summit]

Thank you for your help, more in the next episode

[karmic harbor]

Getting down the flag/shadowblades usage will help you a lot, good luck :)

[sullen yarrow]

hi

why doyble shuriken tornado

st opener

[oblique burrow]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

Its only one, warcraftlogs is just showing it weird

And its storm, not nado

[mighty orbit]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sullen yarrow]

eleem

what is unseen blade

[hazy breach]

Its in the trickster tree

Or rather, it is the trickster tree

[sullen yarrow]

im out of the pc i may have to google it

any quick explanation

[hazy breach]

I will not copypaste the entire trickster hero talent to you here no

[warm depot]

u have a % chance tos trike with an unseen blade when u use abilities or attack

other talents affect the cd of it

[sullen yarrow]

why would u not want to proc that

it seems very good

[plain void]

because it builds towards your coup de grace stacks

read the talents

[sullen yarrow]

sry if im asking too much lol

im at work reading the soec to get better

im new to sub

[warm depot]

should open the talent tree eon wowhead and read the trickster tree to try to intuit yourself i think

[valid vault]

can plexus sentinel phases be pushed early based on hp?

[acoustic matrix]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sullen yarrow]

it is because of that?

so it doesnt procs twice

[valid vault]

you don't want to use an ability that can proc unseen blade while you already have coup because any procs go to waste
this is mainly while you have shadowblades/high mob count

[ornate lake]

Replacing the 1/2 finality with Rotten gives the same Dslice sim

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ckeM7u8rWmeLNwmbPNvHg8

So rotten playable if i want?

[valid vault]

thats why they used shuriken storm instead of backstab/shadowstrike

[sullen yarrow]

even if they go to waste

its hard for me to understand even after reding talents

why you dont want a proc of undern when we have couo

coup

[valid vault]

because you can use the proc after spending your coup

[sullen yarrow]

so you extend the duration

by not using it

backstab or st

[valid vault]

not extending you just don't use it at all

[sullen yarrow]

i understand

[warm depot]

its only when yu have the new 4p btw

this doesnt apply without it

[valid vault]

but if you send a backstab/shadowstrike while you have coup it will use the unseen blade but you won't get the benefit because you already have coup

[sullen yarrow]

imagine not having 4p

if i dont proc coupe

or it is something that always happen

[golden totem]

You always have a 2nd coup with 4p

[sullen yarrow]

oh nvm

i just readed it is after 4 backstabs or st

this mf used the two stacks by using two shadowstrikes

it is after tech u get those 2 stacks u can use

[golden totem]

Hmm?

[sullen yarrow]

he used both of them and then send coupe

[golden totem]

This sequence is good

I mean

[valid vault]

yeah you get unseen procs from both backstab/shadowstrike

they are essentially the same ability, just one you can only use in stealth

[sullen yarrow]

yes

you guys didnt say you use shuriken to not overlap unseen blade

isn’t that what he is doing there

overlapping unseen blade

because you get those two procs after secret tech

[warm depot]

no

you only shuri storm when you use your first coup

so as not to waste the ub cd

[golden totem]

Unseen blades and coup are 2 different things

The first lead to the latest

You storm between 2 coup, not 2 unseen blades

[sullen yarrow]

oh ok

let me read the other message

[round charm]

is there a way to turn off automatic thistle tea? I hate it so much, sometimes I munch it between cds...

[golden totem]

And only during blade or in aoe

[golden totem]

No it's annoying

Just macro it to dance

Or try to wait for 70 energy before pressing a button outside dance

[round charm]

think I will go with cold blood until I get used to watching my energy to never get low

[sullen yarrow]

in assa with the i press buttons when my energy reaches 120

so i dont proc it and save it for the 2nd kingsbane

i think its the same lealo

[round charm]

I remember hating it on assa, where I tried to fit generators in KB to get more stacks and consumed thistle tea in last second...

[sullen yarrow]

the reasons is because backstab or shadowstrike

will proc an overlap on unseen blade

[round charm]

its sad they didn't add option to turn it off like it used to be...

[sullen yarrow]

why it is a problem to overlap unseen blade tho?

[golden totem]

If you macro tea with dance you usually use most of ur tear charges before having time to waste it outside dance tbh

[golden totem]

Unseen blade loads stacks for coup to be ready. When you have couo ready and when 4p procs you can't stack those unseen blade. That's why you avoid to proc it when u can

[valid vault]

think of it as pressing a combo point builder when you already have max combo points

they just go to waste

[sullen yarrow]

i understand i think

so u have alredy a coupe going

there is no reason to build another coupe

or there are no unseen blades because coupe is alredy procced

it is like that?

[golden totem]

If you proc unseen blade with coup ready you lose potentiel unseen blade procs for the next coup

[sullen yarrow]

okok

[golden totem]

With 2p and 4p you can stack coup very fast if you're lucky and. Don't waste stacks

[sullen yarrow]

got it

thats is very important

i want to get the basic im jouning a very good raid tomorrow

and i just swapped sublety in the weekend

[spice lichen]

I miss when nobody was playing sub and everyone was still on the sin train

[woeful lance]

Is symbols specifically used only with dance? Or are there situations i can pop it too like low energy times

[sullen yarrow]

yes

answer to kry

i have same question

[spice lichen]

just use it w/ dance you shouldn't ever cap on charges

and what do you gain from gaining energy when not in dance

[sullen yarrow]

yo u never should have symbols when u dont hace shadow dance

its like u should not get in that situation

?

[spice lichen]

you should never not have symbols on cd if you're using it with every dance

only time to use symbols is in 1. Dance and 2. Buff sectech

[steel zinc]

@vale pine how good is blessing of authem? %?

[spice lichen]

which you're using sec tech in dance so saying symbols is only active in dance is a bit redundant

[sullen yarrow]

so what happens if i dont have symbols and i have dance or vice versa

[wary plover]

Does Droptimizer take on account double on use prism and forge while simming?

[spice lichen]

also if you're ever wondering "should i ___ outside of dance" the answer is likely no considering you do less than tank damage then. Obvi slam your sod if the boss is at like 1 percent or something and it's about to die anyways but other than that it's just don't cap on it (which you won't by just slamming only in dance window)

only time you should have dance without symbols is if you're leaving combat a lot in keys and have a lot of first dance going on. In a raid encounter it shouldn't happen

you should always have one for the other

[sullen yarrow]

even in m+ when pack is finishing u should get shuriken evisc or bp

to get back for next pack

and at the start of other pack u qill shruiken rupture and get more of that shadow dance bsck

so u restart shadow dance

that is how i do it

idk

[spice lichen]

ngl I don't really know what you're talking about rn

[sullen yarrow]

shit my english is bad

[spice lichen]

I have literally never had a situation where I wanted to dance and didn't have symbols vice/versa

[sullen yarrow]

learning a spec with my other lsnguage is another level of hard

[spice lichen]

no I get it

[lucid jackal]

GUYS IF YOU LOOK AT WCL STATS BM HUNTER WAS SLIGHTLY WORSE THAN MM WE NEED AN EMERGENCY 30% BUFF NOW

[spice lichen]

I wish I wasn't American so I could help more

We are stupid and can't learn

[sullen yarrow]

im american too

[timid furnace]

whats the vibe in m+ when it comes to rupturing stuff when you have cds ready - do we spread some ruptures around before going into cds or do we just send cds after the 1 rupture we use after flag

[sullen yarrow]

spresd before they stack

when they are stscked

blast cds

u dont use rupture after flag

[spice lichen]

yeah rupture on gather, if it's gathered and you have 2 SD up you might as well slam it

[sullen yarrow]

u send straight secret tech after flag and cds

omg sublety is so hard

im gonna cry

[timid furnace]

thats what I meant, gotta send some finsiher after flag so its 1 rupture at least, i was more asking about the optional part of more ruptures

[sullen yarrow]

bro i swesr im watching every rogue stream

[spice lichen]

I may just be coping but sub is just mad easy and idk it's like 3 or 4 things you have to remember

[sullen yarrow]

they send secret tech after flag

like rank 1 rogue in rio

[scarlet oyster]

He missplays

[sullen yarrow]

tell them to me

[scarlet oyster]

A lot

[sullen yarrow]

u mean salatikue?

[scarlet oyster]

I mean the Russian guy

[sullen yarrow]

yes

[scarlet oyster]

The current rank 1rio sub

[sullen yarrow]

why he is blasting thst much then

even missplaying

[scarlet oyster]

617 ilv

And he isn't blasting that much

[sullen yarrow]

ok so u are better

what should i know

as sublety

[scarlet oyster]

He doesn't backstab after SD

He doesn't stack his flag before his shadow blade

[sullen yarrow]

im just learning from the wrong people now

im so mad

[scarlet oyster]

He doesn't use rotten with shuriken in aoe to apply fw to everyone for his bp to deal 30% more dmg

[sullen yarrow]

kush told me to secret tech

also

[stiff stirrup]

Depends on unseen blade stacks tbh

[sullen yarrow]

is he bad too

[scarlet oyster]

You can sectech but you prefer to build a few stacks of flag before

[stiff stirrup]

Can’t just have a fixed rotation

[scarlet oyster]

Flag last a long time

[sullen yarrow]

wym u can

[scarlet oyster]

Much longer than shadowblade

[sullen yarrow]

it is yes or no

what does more damage

[scarlet oyster]

Yes you have to

[sullen yarrow]

idk why those 2 rogues

that it seems they sre very hood

told me the same thing then

[scarlet oyster]

You can only get 2 sectech during shadow blade anyways at maximum

There is no point of sending the first one just after flag

[sullen yarrow]

so imma ask him rn

[scarlet oyster]

You prefer to send a buffed sectech than a neutral one

[sullen yarrow]

why is he doing that

i think he is on stream

[scarlet oyster]

Do you have a log to show ?

[sullen yarrow]

im just seeing his opener in all dungs

and he do the sale

same opener

everytine

[scarlet oyster]

Can I see it pls

I'm on phone

Go to wclog, check opener, I'd be extremely surprised if he flag sectech

He probably flag rupt/eviscerate > danse > symbol > backstab shadowblade and then sectec

[short radish]

you dont need to be perfect

you can still fuck up a lot of things

and as long as you're doing the general sub rules

you'll be 90% there

[spice lichen]

^^^^

[short radish]

time to ego boost a little

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KfR28q794WdZLFT6?fight=1&type=casts&source=3&view=timeline

but just take a look at my opener here

its absolutely criminal

i should be banned from ever giving advice in this channel

i do so many things wrong

but i kinda pumped that key

granted i also absolutely stacked it with every single possible buff for sub

[spice lichen]

lmfaooo

[short radish]

but like

just press buttons

dont hold

the more you send

the more you send

and the more you send

the more damage you do

[spice lichen]

idk I feel like people are swapping to sub and come in here and see the opener and want to perfect everything but like just slam buttons and use cds

[short radish]

oh no you missed out on doing the coup min max

[spice lichen]

and you will do fine

[short radish]

who cares

just shadowstrike anyway

[spice lichen]

^^^

[short radish]

as long as youre sending your flag with 2 dances

youre presing sectech in both of them

and youre casting flag every 90-110 seconds

youre good

[sullen yarrow]

im on the 18s with 713 ilvl

[karmic harbor]

how long does it take to farm Ethereal Augmentation if ive done nothing

[sullen yarrow]

i kinda need to be perfect

[karmic harbor]

😢

[short radish]

eh even then

just dont die

you still dont need to be perfect

[outer radish]

for m+ when do i play thistle tea and when do i play cold blood

[haughty rose]

cold blood on rupture new meta?

[sullen yarrow]

dude wym dont die

[short radish]

yeah it's the OCE tech

[sullen yarrow]

even perfect runs

what are u talking about

u need a lot of dps

in 18/

[short radish]

oh yeah i guess 18

you kinda do

[sullen yarrow]

thats why im talking about min maxing opener and everything

[shadow lance]

You pushing 18s on live rn?

[sullen yarrow]

yes

[shadow lance]

Ggz

[sullen yarrow]

or atleast the group im running are playing 18s but

my damage is not enough

[short radish]

whats your comp?

[sullen yarrow]

so im practicing in 16s 17s

[craggy prairie]

idk if im just to dumb to read or reading icons on my nameplates but HOW do i apply find weakness in aoe situations?

[sullen yarrow]

dk dh rogue resto war

[short radish]

oh thats kinda goated sub comp as well

[shadow lance]

Oh damn

Whers's the ranged?

[sullen yarrow]

no range

[shadow lance]

Db so cursed

[short radish]

the resto

[spice lichen]

if you're doing 18s you're good enough to figure it out pretty quickly
that or just play what you've been playing

[short radish]

when you say damage issues

are you coming in last?

[sullen yarrow]

hey

[short radish]

by a large margin?

[sullen yarrow]

i just clipped his stream

idk why my phone is not working

didnt load

[short radish]

you got a log of one of your keys?

[craggy prairie]

ty - do you try to apply find weakness b4 you enter your cds in aoe situations?

[sullen yarrow]

check the rotation

down there

he sented secret tech straight

[woeful fulcrum]

I honestly never think about it. I dunno if being in shadow dance makes other abilities apply it. It just applies when it does

Caveat: I am not good

[short radish]

he did shadowstrike first

[sullen yarrow]

.-.

[short radish]

sorry

[sullen yarrow]

yes

[short radish]

i came in half way

im not seeing the issue

[slate lantern]

and flag is running for 9 secs?

[sullen yarrow]

everyone says u gotta rupture and do stuff before sending secret tech

[short radish]

whos everyone

[sullen yarrow]

but this guy that is top 1 rogue

send it after 1 st

[short radish]

you rupture while the pack is gathering

but if the pack is gathered

you just full send

you dont go rupturing everything

[slate lantern]

i think hes confused about the rupture/finisher typically used immediately after pressing flag for stacks before going into the rest of the cd window

[sullen yarrow]

u just dont get what are ee talkng

[slate lantern]

he is saying this r1 rogue doesnt use a finisher to build flag stacks before SD/SoD/SB/Sectec

[limpid sage]

surely that doesn't consume it right

[sullen yarrow]

yed

also cush rogue

does the same as this russian rogue

[short radish]

but isn't there a rupture -> dance -> shadowstrike -> sectech

so i assume he's sent a flag before the rupture

[sullen yarrow]

no

[minor sorrel]

ive been doing that but not because im good

[sullen yarrow]

he sented flag after rupture

[short radish]

he went rupture -> flag?

[sullen yarrow]

yes

[haughty rose]

just checked. it doesnt

i feel scammed

[short radish]

that sounds wack

do you have a ss of that

[slate lantern]

which is flag in this, the oldest spells are on the right correct?

[short radish]

yeah im looking at that

[minor sorrel]

Flag isnt there

[short radish]

and assuming flag is before rupture

[woeful fulcrum]

I mean, does he do it always? I just checked his top arakara and he sent Flag -> Rupture -> Sec tech that time

[slate lantern]

i think flag is before the rupture on the right bro

lmao

i dont know what the icon second to the left is tho

[minor sorrel]

must be

[short radish]

feint

[feral knot]

feint?

[short radish]

press a defensive.

[minor sorrel]

feint

[short radish]

[limpid sage]

https://tenor.com/view/waah-waa-sad-wah-waaah-gif-25875771

[karmic harbor]

pressing feint steals too much energy

[short radish]

not in blades

[karmic harbor]

ill let my healers handle it

[short radish]

energy is kinda free in blades

[minor sorrel]

Dieing does cost more energy and dps

[short radish]

yeah but it means you can potentially stand in a circle without proccing cheat

[karmic harbor]

if i die my healers shouldve gave me ironbark

[minor sorrel]

XD

[slate lantern]

and this wa would indicated 9s left on flag, im assuming the first part so it was cast 3 seconds ago?

[spice lichen]

dont even check parses anymore just feint uptime

[rancid crow]

I love it when the first streets boss throws my weapon across the room right when I pop flag 🙃 please hurt me more

[haughty rose]

also kidney doesn't sonsume supercharge wtf 😠

[minor sorrel]

yea

[short radish]

10 second kidney is banned

[minor sorrel]

but tahst okay

[woeful fulcrum]

Same rogue, same dungeon, same pull. Different group but clearly he flag ruptures at least some of the time

[minor sorrel]

ill sap anyway if needed b4 pul

[slate lantern]

can you send the wcl

[woeful fulcrum]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Rr1dKq87xJG2WtDm?fight=1&type=casts&source=5&view=timeline

[minor sorrel]

its probably just a miniscule loss in the end

[slate lantern]

bro doesnt send flag after rupture a single time in this log ^^ lmao

[karmic harbor]

https://www.twitch.tv/salatikue/clip/ObservantOptimisticWoodcockCharlietheUnicorn-uRMJJKP8B0d8x4vJ

[timid furnace]

where backstab

[haughty rose]

he never backstabs after dance

[short radish]

who cares just shadowstrike

fuck min maxing in m+

[vale pine]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dPaP217Xk9gKiQwBSwjfZo

[timid furnace]

m+ with endless scaling is exactly the place to min max

[steel zinc]

ok so decent ty ❤️

[vale pine]

thats fine

[crystal bone]

hold up, what is blessing of autumn lol

[vale pine]

its not that relevant in aoe

[hazy breach]

Its highly variable on exact fight length timing

[alpine wraith]

yea depends on fight

[karmic harbor]

paladin ability

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=328622/blessing-of-autumn#:~:text=Blessing of Autumn - Blesses an,and attack speed stacking debuff.

[alpine wraith]

like on soul hunters you can get a last flag+blades before last interphase

[hazy breach]

Its sometimes like 0.5% and sometimes like 4%

[alpine wraith]

if you ever get autumn

[vale pine]

its basically a spell to reduce your cd, so as eleem mentiones its situational

[crystal bone]

ahhh ok

[alpine wraith]

on dimensius it is also useful if you get it 2nd platform

[hazy breach]

Like if the fight is 3:15 you get insane autumn value

[alpine wraith]

and saladbar it is useful but not super strong i think

[hazy breach]

Its playable without, you just do less to the adds on the platform

[alpine wraith]

also yea fight timers

yea you go to platform with like 10 secs left of cd right?

[haughty rose]

and shuriken storm after dance?

[alpine wraith]

without autumn

[timid furnace]

why is it less relevant in aoe?

[hazy breach]

Na you get it anyway if you use it immediately

[shadow lance]

Cuz it's okay to do like this

[left ledge]

Autumn on dim is nice

[hazy breach]

But the autumn is so you can delay 3-4s so your cb sectech hits adds

[left ledge]

After you pop on second platform

You need that autumn

[slate lantern]

sure but the dude had his panties in a twist since a good rogue didn't do it optimally

[shadow lance]

Yes, don't try to understand this kind of people

[hazy breach]

Extra lil 18m on all 5 adds

[shadow lance]

There's no hidden special tech

[hazy breach]

(theyre actually dangerous and need to die asap, its not purely pad)

[short radish]

on saladbar?

[hazy breach]

Dimmy

[short radish]

hm

i should probably look at log for that

[hazy breach]

You want it after you land platform 2

[short radish]

need to start dim prep

[scarlet oyster]

he didn't send it straight, he sent flag > rupt > dance > symbol > shadowstrike(missplay) > sectech (good)

[hazy breach]

Its in aoe so the backstab doesnt matter much

[limpid sage]

anyone know if you can reset boss with shadowmeld?

[shadow lance]

You could do flag > evis > cd's it would not change a lot of things

[scarlet oyster]

still lower damages, especially during first dance

[shadow lance]

Ss hits hard

Prolly neutral in aoe

Idk

[scarlet oyster]

you loose 6% from bance macabre for every single spell you will send afterwards

[slate lantern]

correcting eleem/fuu kinda wild bro

[scarlet oyster]

to yes SS deals more damages at the first start of the burst, but if you take le "long" term (10sec) then sending a backstab will do more

[hazy breach]

Well no, you lose 6% from anything you send after you strike the next time

[scarlet oyster]

yesd

2gcd later (if no coup rdy)

[hazy breach]

But your strike does more damage than backstab

So it mostly evens it out

Its still better to backstab, but by far less than on St

Also assuming the target had fw up, if it didnt then strike is better anyway

So in practice it doesnt matter much

[limpid sage]

at what target count does backstab tech become neutral?

[short aurora]

Do danse macabre stacks work past secret technique sends?
So when im at full cp i press sd+Symbols -> secret technique -> backstab do the backstab stacks work for the delayed secret technique clones or nah?

[fathom adder]

it works for your whole dance

no resets

[hazy breach]

It does for the one that hits after 1.3s

But not the one that hits after 1s

[short aurora]

[shadow lance]

Yes, sectech damages are dynamic

You could press SB just after if you want

[wispy crystal]

Does sTec clone hits and black powder land around my character?

So I can cast it run away and it still follows me ?

[fair cloak]

Does sending 9 gcd during first dance hurt dps when blades run out for cold blod 2nd sectech

Also i feel sometimes fan of knives animation makes me waste time of 2gcds

Its so slow

[north schooner]

sectec is anchoring the target. BP is around you but I dunno what you mean about following when it's an instant ability

[wispy crystal]

Ah so for sTec once I cast around the target, I can shadowstep away and the clones will still stick on the target?

BP just ignore what I said. It's instant like you said

[shadow lance]

It should be 12

[north schooner]

yes you can move away

[shadow lance]

Not 9

And I don't understand what you saying

[north schooner]

it's just some lazy goat doing the shadow damage of sectec

[fair cloak]

What im saying is, during my dps window after rapture i dance and itsinde that dance i sometimes try to fit so many finishers that i dont have Shadow blades anymore for second sec tech during second dance

Is that big dps loss

Sorry for chaotic typing eng not my main language and im on bys

Bus

[north schooner]

you should very comfortably be able to fit in the 2nd sectec within blades

it's higher prio than other finishers

[spice lichen]

normally ~4-5 seconds left

[north schooner]

if you cannot, then either your priorities are wrong or you are missing GCDs/have gaps

[fair cloak]

Ok i might have gaps

I run out of space on keyboard

My Mouse 5 is backstab

[shadow lance]

That's weird

[lilac pendant]

im getting into pvp(cosmitics) anyone has talents to shareW?

[shadow lance]

You should be able to send second se tech at the end of tfd or in the begining of the second sd

[shadow lance]

Check pvp section

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/226359213427916800

[strange chasm]

Autumn goes crazy on dim though right

otherwise after 2nd platform you dont get cd set?

[hazy breach]

you do

You just dont get to hit the adds

[strange chasm]

like for the amp in p3?

[calm trail]

in 4+ aoe should I still be using shadowstrike / backstab to get te coup procs? Or is it better to just sguriken storm into black powder

[unkempt drum]

shadowstrike in dance always, SS outside of it

[calm trail]

roger

[vale pine]

only between coup

[unkempt drum]

The optimizations are stuff like backstabbing during your burst at the start to use premed or SS between coup for the 4 set damage

[vale pine]

strike does good damage, so more targets makes the backstab optimization damage neutral, which means its optional with more targets

[gaunt bluff]

do u guys think i'd be better off on outlaw for myth soul hunters prog or stay on sub?

i see top logs heavily favor outlaw but i guess thats only bcs of high rolls?

my gear sims worse on outlaw obv than sub

[alpine wraith]

you can do either dmg check is very low nowadays

just dont die and do decent dmg

[gaunt bluff]

ah alright good then

[alpine wraith]

i did like 7.2m or so and it was fine

[vale pine]

does not matter tbh, you can play all 3 well

[alpine wraith]

well first week it did matter but now you just kill them quite easily

[gaunt bluff]

for me it was mostly between sub and outlaw cus i never played assa aoe anyway

[alpine wraith]

also we just get carried mostly

assa on that boss is very annoying

[hazy breach]

Unless you are good at outlaw i wouldnt recommend playing outlaw on it

Outlaw is not an easy spec to play and theres tons of stuff going on in the fight

[coarse hound]

I guess I missed the change of us going back to The Rotten in M+, It sims higher for me right now anyways

[sick jackal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[gaunt bluff]

im comfortable on outlaw but i was wondering if theres something specific that makes it much better

if the dmg is irrelevant nowadays its no problem

[queen plinth]

how man ruptures would u press after flag in aoe before u start bursting

like 2 max?

[tepid trellis]

@vale pine @tribal blade

[gaunt bluff]

iirc someone mentioned casual does like 8 seconds of rupturing?

before starting his cds

but idt it matters that much as long as ur hitting everything in ur cds

[queen plinth]

so flag runs for 12 sec then again for 12 seconds stacked righgt?

how long does our double dance sec tech window take

[vale pine]

thanks

[unkempt drum]

We never want to hit coup if dance is available before the proc expires right? So never as the pre-dance spender during the opener, or between dances when you've got say dance up in 6 seconds

[empty plume]

does this hold true even during a tfd dance where you capitalize on danse macabre stacks for 11 seconds instead of 7 seconds?

[unkempt drum]

And if sectec is up plus dance available but SoD is 5 seconds or so away, we hold it for both correct

[vale pine]

yes, the diffrence becomes lower

its just nature of how the spells interact with each other

[empty plume]

I will just go remove the dance backstab APL condition and run a dungeon slice with/without tfd talented

when back at pc

[vale pine]

i can do a quick comparison if you want

[empty plume]

it's nbd mostly curiosity

[vale pine]

its fairly easy to setup

moment

[gaunt bluff]

by any chance do u guys know a good pov/vod for sub soul hunters

i dont recognise any names on wlogs

😄

[lucid jackal]

Wdym

U dont do anything as melee on soul hunters, u just dodge

[gaunt bluff]

idk wanted to watch anyway

[lucid jackal]

and its not scripted u kinda need to just dodge on reaction

[lime lintel]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[grizzled sphinx]

should i use shurikestorm in m+ on 2 or 3 targets plus?

[lime lintel]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[empty plume]

outside of dance ye (2)

better cp builder to cycle CDs faster

[grizzled sphinx]

but is it 2 targets + or 3 targets +?

[empty plume]

i edited my comment insta - 2+

the threshold where it builds more cp per energy than backstab 🙂

[warm pond]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[warm pond]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[warm pond]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[wispy crystal]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

Keep in mind that Gear and Talents impact the absolute value here, so this is not a super scientific sim but just a sim to show the general change.
Single target -0.8% dps
Three targets -1.2 % dps
Five Targets -0.6% dps
Six Targets -0.1% dps
Dungeon slice -0.1% dps
There is a point it gets towards roughly equal output at around 6 targets.
The impact of the optimization roughly looks like this if put in a graph:

[empty plume]

is that with tfd?

[vale pine]

yes

[hazy breach]

Fwiw the reason why its a bigger loss on 2 and 3 targets relative to ST is probably because the sim usually spreads FW with strike

So if youre not doing that then the difference should be fairly linear

[empty plume]

ty for your time

[vale pine]

as eleem mentioned, one of the low target optimizations plays a role in the evaluation here

[unkempt pivot]

can someone help explain to me why i do AWEFULL dmg in AOE using blackpowder versus just single target spaming eviserate

[plush roost]

Have you tried finding their weakness?

Finish at 4+?

Still using strike and bp in dances, not shuriken storm?

[unkempt pivot]

yeah find weakness is on all and im using at 4+

yeah

[plush roost]

Can u define awful and show an example

Playing finality? Finalityx2? Rotten? Tornado?

[unkempt pivot]

final dmg for a 10 floodgate

[plush roost]

This was a 16 floodgate i did 2 weeks agk

[heady kestrel]

Maybe I'm stupid/overthinking, but coup de grace confuses me. The text says "eviscerate performed as if it had consumed 5 combo points", yet it still consumes combo points. So practically speaking, do I still need to use coup de grace with full (or close to full) cp? If so, what does the tooltip mean as far as "as if it had consumed 5 combo points"?
Disregard, I totally missed the keyword "additional" in the text

[tulip gorge]

5 extra combo points

[fathom phoenix]

Some questions:

For 2nd Sectech, usually slamming with 2nd shadow dance - do we want to use symbols so we get the super charged with it, or let symbols expire, then re use it?

Also - for the aoe from our talent point, does that originate from the target were hitting, or our player location?

Same question about aoe and where it originates from for sectec (target or player)

[plush roost]

Youre not far off, youre playing coldblood and rotten. no tea/finality. Your shadowstrikes and sec tec will naturally be hitting harder over a key.

[heady kestrel]

Oh, it says additional in the text

[tulip gorge]

1. No, you use symbols, the duration will get extended anyway
2. Nimble flurry is around the player

[heady kestrel]

So I'm stupid then

Totally missed that keyword, my bad

[plush roost]

Now u know :p

[fathom phoenix]

Bet, thanks - is there a pandemic for symbols?

Also is Sectech around player too then?

[tulip gorge]

I am not sure about sec tech tho

[astral axle]

i believe target

[tulip gorge]

I think it’s around target

[fathom phoenix]

I'll do some dummy stuff and check later td

[plush roost]

Sec tec is based on targets location which is annoying cause if target moves your clones hit nothing else. SoD pandemic is at 3.5 seconds iirc

But i can never remember the exact number since inevitability extends it so much

[fathom phoenix]

o7 thanks! I'm just trying to figure out how I can play around my raids inconsistent stunning on the adds in forge weaver

[plush roost]

If you sectec boss 1 global after knock it will hit

If youre knocking, that is

[fathom phoenix]

You mean it'll hit them while they're in the puddle? We don't have vortex assigned to all the sets unfortunately

[plush roost]

I would stack up a few sht stacks, attempt to have coup ready and then dance backstab boss, into sec tec

[plush roost]

Yeah the radius on sec tec is quite big on araz so after knock the clones will smack them if your tank is moving boss correctly (boss should be slighty in or infront of the puddle)

[fathom phoenix]

Oh interesting, good tip thanks! Might shift some stuff around, I've been timing things to send the first sectec on just boss, and 2nd for when they walk back in, but might be able to shift things around.

Would I lose nimble flurry on that cast tho

Oh jk, nimble doesn't work on Sectech

[plush roost]

If your guild isnt pushing pylons too fast, flag at 22 seconds-> 1:56 ->4:10ish is kinda goated

[fathom phoenix]

I think mine has been around that, I think I delayed to like 24 s for first flag

I'll have to double check

Oh for damage amp, I'm assuming we store sht while pylons are dying. And when do you end up pressing flag? When the pylons are dead? Or a bit earlier to full stack flag and can get both sec techs in the damage window? Might be bc I'm new to sub, but I feel like Ike 2-3 globals off of fitting 2nd sec tec in

[ruby lava]

Hello, I'm new here and trying to help my mate. He's new to sub and bad in english so I'm the middle man. I know he read wowhead guides and try to follow it but he feels he's underperforming in mm+ and would love some guidance. Do you do logs review? Can I post log here or maybe there is a dedicated channel I missed?
Thank you all and have a nice day!

[maiden slate]

Hi... there are two of us, and I don't speak English either. I'm trying to use the translator, but I don't know if it's right. All I know is that my overall weight on a 10 or 12 is 4.5M, while others use 10M, and I don't know how to do the rotations.

[rancid crow]

"Weight" is a translation error, thats how people say damage per second in spanish, but not many english speakers are aware of this.

[plush roost]

Should have 14 stacks and coup and full cp ready: Flag 3 seconds before amp. Rupture. 2seconds. Vanish strike for fw. 1 second. Dance. SoD. Sec tec, coup, coup, backstab, evis, strike, etc

[steel jolt]

i'm assuming this message is also a translation error because the idea that English speakers don't know what DPS means is kinda silly oh, you changed English to Spanish

[plush roost]

If u do this you will have enough cdr to sec tec twice in the burn

[rancid crow]

yeah, I misspoke lol. I only slept for 2 hours, don't judge me >.>

[steel jolt]

time for a siesta

[rancid crow]

I can't play my rogue in my sleep :-;

[short aurora]

does anyone know a rupture tracker wa for council boss fight?

[warm marlin]

That sectec not gonna refund you noob!

Now that I know about the premed bug thing I’m actually very preferential to backstab variant of the opener when you have sht prepped

Backstab sectec coup coup seems a lot better than sectec storm coup coup

[plush roost]

True and real

Im tired and writing from work

[warm marlin]

[plush roost]

Me when i spread bad advice

I hit 55m on second boss HoA today

8 grounds keeps 1 oblit 1 darksword guy

[warm marlin]

I did 40 keys on the blue class this week

[plush roost]

18 stack prism on all the adds gos kaboom

[warm marlin]

Arcane is actually very fun

[plush roost]

Arcane???1

Smhmyhead

Ranged? Dps? Vomit

[astral axle]

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/boo-boo-this-man-mad-angry-gif-16849857

[warm marlin]

Ok ok counterargument

Big number

[drowsy veldt]

Can someone explain to me why we use symbols of death first if it gives 40 points shouldn’t we use it last

[warm marlin]

Kaboom

💣

[lilac stag]

nothing to see here

Was 633 ilvl Saturday .

[warm marlin]

Yeah same

My mage outsims my rogue

[plush roost]

Big number? Have you heard of sudden demise?

[warm marlin]

no way demise is doing 70M

[alpine wraith]

it is doing more actually

[plush roost]

With deathmark and shiv and everything capped out

It can happen

[alpine wraith]

time to farm clips with 40k mastery demises

send everything and 18 stack prism into big momma and kill it from 10%

[sick sand]

would this be the play with prism? ain't got Araz trink, Nexus King M prog

[warm marlin]

Assuming you mean energy, you will have a ton in cooldowns anyway because the symbols buff greatly increases your chance to proc shadow techniques which are a large source of your energy income

[sick sand]

or simply flood trink + prism?

[warm marlin]

If you need add platform damage you could consider it, but it will int your damage on the rest of the fight by a decent chunk

[astral axle]

slayer fury after the changes actually big fun in m+

[warm marlin]

Personally I 18 stacked the add platform until we were easily overkilling it (which was like day2) and then rawdogged it with no trinket for the rest of prog, all prenerf of add hp