subtlety

[lilac stag]

if sechtech isnt up and coup is, you coup

if neither are up you evis

there are times you're pressing dance, doing a builder, spender, spender then hitting sod for sectech

nothing is static with sub

[potent breach]

what's the exact ability called that references how supercharged combo points work btw

particularly in relation to symbols

[lilac stag]

huh?

[potent breach]

supercharged combo points

[lilac stag]

“Supercharger”

[fossil forge]

nvm i figured it out

[quiet smelt]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[potent breach]

oh i see, i was looking on wrong side. I also for some reason thought these functioned like echoing reprimand during SL

[acoustic matrix]

No matter how fast I press my buttons, I always end up having half my dances at 7 GCDs due to ping/input lag. Any estimate to how much dps that's costing me ?

[lilac stag]

@warm marlin ^ did you ever math it out in your macro researching

[lilac stag]

no. Way better

[nova cairn]

I think it’s more important to get it on cd to get it back faster, look at the wowhead rotation guide

[potent breach]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[hazy breach]

It starts with a singletarget segment thats a random length and then it does a random amount of mobs at random intervals

Its got issues, but so does dungeon routes

[vale pine]

The benefit of it is that its not static, so its not sensitive to local maxima

[hazy breach]

So does aoe constant sims, its just impossible to accurately model m+ with all the variables available

[vale pine]

all while still giving benefits like restealth, uneven health distributions in pacs, etc.

[keen dome]

A good and workable data slice

[vale pine]

yes

well the problem is also

a "accurate" model would need a completely custom apl

[keen dome]

It'd only be accurate to one specific instance, too.

[vale pine]

and would just spezialise

[keen dome]

You could accurately simulate a +12 with x buffs, x routing, etc. And then in reality it goes a different route and bam your model isn't applicable.

[vale pine]

diffrent key levels, diffrent group constellations, etc.

[keen dome]

Ye

[vale pine]

like inherently, we did try this multiple times

like you can inherenly try to just use multiple routes, key levels, etc....

[keen dome]

It's such an interesting idea. How to accurattely model something so dynamic

[hazy breach]

Yeah then somebody misses a kick and somebody dies and the entire thing is now wrong

[keen dome]

Yeah, haha

Need to include a simulated % to miss kicks.

[vale pine]

but every time we did some testing

the results ended up extremely similar to dungeon slice

[keen dome]

Sometimes the sim just returns a really weird value and goes "Yeah you fucking bricked the key!"

Sim result: bads

[vale pine]

while having a LOT more effort to model and keep up to date

[honest grail]

!trinket

[vale pine]

in the pins, but also in any of the guides

but tl;dr:
get netherprism
combine it with forge or a good passive

!prism is the use

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vale pine]

^ means you essentially re-invent dungeon slice for no good reason

[honest grail]

I was looking for the !macro command but I found it

Appreciate everything you do though

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[honest grail]

[cunning notch]

could it theoretically be possible to have a set path that it should follow of a M+ route and sim every pack / boss that way ?

how could this be done

[warm marlin]

No too hard

[keen dome]

Yes, but any deviation (Less DPS, deaths, kicks) renders it moot. And you'd have to do it for every key level.

It's simply too many variables to ever be worthwhile.

An abstract slice is better

[cobalt palm]

!log

[limpid sage]

Any specs besides marksman that should contest us on prism?

[vale pine]

think more specs start using it

[rose tulip]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Dks usually want it but mm or sub should be prioritized usually

[gaunt bluff]

bm dark ranger

[rigid remnant]

hey, im getting into sub and when i play at a dummy sometimes in my shadowdance windows outside of shadow blades i am at 5 CP after 1x Shadowstrike. the wowhead guide says, finisher at 6 or more CP, but no log i chekced and not my own sim never does 2x Shadowstrike back to back. what am i missing?

[hazy breach]

Nothing, youre supposed to finish at 6 or more

[rigid remnant]

so i would use 2x shadowstrike and proably waste a lot ob combo points generations there? it even "feels" kinda wrong. i mean running my sim 3 times and chekcing like 5 logs can obviously shwo skewed results, but was wondering

[hazy breach]

You wouldnt waste a lot of combo points no

Well it doesnt happen often

But sim finishes at 6+

[rigid remnant]

here i.e sim does coup de grace with 5

[hazy breach]

Yes because coup is an exception

You wont find it do 5 on anything else

[rigid remnant]

ok, didnt cathc that in the guide so far. but could have missed it. lot of input at once 😄

[hazy breach]

Its a very minor thing

[rigid remnant]

thats outside shadow dance though

in case thats another exception casue guide says 6+ outside aswell

[hearty flint]

Has anyone played around with spell queue window for sub?

[autumn glade]

For your general finishers, yes, for Coup it's different especially if it's your second cast of coup from tier set

[hearty flint]

Mine feels sorta clunky

[limpid sage]

What - aren’t they better off with passive trinks?

[alpine wraith]

they do quite a bit of dmg with cds

this was an image someone posted of saladbar dragon amp

[upper narwhal]

dark ranger BM is waaaay less flat than packleader

[gaunt bluff]

fractillus

[limpid sage]

Holy shit

Didn’t know they were crazy with it like that

[keen holly]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Changed with the buffs this week

Before they used another hero talent and generally wanted passives

[vestal escarp]

The world renown sub rog scaling

Week 5(?) of patch and already dethroned on all jobs

[limpid sage]

Ye didn’t know dark ranger was that bursty tho

[hazy breach]

The only thing sub is really good at is padding on adds, and when adds get their HP nerfed by 10/30% and people get more gear so theyre not as relevant anymore then

[tulip gorge]

ok but you see sub was used in rwf

[lilac stag]

Almost like this was said before the tier started.

[tulip gorge]

and max said in an interview sub is op

therefore sub doesn't need buffs

[hazy breach]

Yeah but adds also had 30% more HP when liquid was doing it

[lilac stag]

fury warrior 692 now

[hazy breach]

So

[tulip gorge]

also sub is useful on the last 2 bosses

fuck the rest of the raid

[lilac stag]

bM in keys is kinda nuts now too

[hazy breach]

Yeah sub is good on dimmy and ait on nexus King

[mystic bough]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Fight timers are getting shorter so youre not getting the last 18 stack of on nexus

[tulip gorge]

I wouldn't mind it if I could swap to assa on the fights sub is bad

but assa is fucking dogshit everywhere

and they don't even bother fixing the mess they made

soon it's almost 1 month since they fucked everything up

[lilac stag]

[vestal escarp]

Bruh

How tf did i get an 80 on loomithar while on webs duty

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/marmota-cooking-hold-up-gif-5382607284931131048

[vestal escarp]

Waht are the susbsies doing on that boss

[lilac stag]

Not playing it

[short radish]

also on web duty

[lilac stag]

dino had rank 3 and it was like a 91

[pliant arrow]

I cant parse for shit on loomi boy, but im on pylon duty, idk if thats griefing me hard or nah

[short radish]

its fine

pylons are a damage buff

because its permission to ignore webs

[vestal escarp]

Soak pylon? That shouldnt be too impactful

[pliant arrow]

true, but im usually high 80s/90s parsing, on loomi parsing blue is hard

[short radish]

soaking pylons is fine

it doesnt impact your damage at all

you sit on teh boss even more

[pliant arrow]

maybe im just dogwater idk

[lilac stag]

there are no parses on it so it becomes infinitely more difficult to parse well

[vestal escarp]

Just get 27 flawless stacks before second sectech lilbro

[short radish]

ye just charge up more

[vestal escarp]

Cant see my rank because private logs cringe

But purple while doing webs without shadowstep is silly

[lilac stag]

💯 in my ❤️

[vestal escarp]

The absolute state of logs

[lilac stag]

We did heroic last night. Some how dimmy timing got all krangled so nothing lined up with anything. Still ended up with an 80

[vale pine]

the typical cycle

[pliant arrow]

on soul hunters first time tonite, any hidden tech there or is it just sending shit as usual?

[vestal escarp]

The super nuke tech is focus the dh you want and ignore calls to balance hp

[real panther]

I know the theory, but is this actually making a big difference if you don't stack dm by using bs during dances that are outside the big cds windows (5+ min fight)? Can I be lazy during those?

[short radish]

DM?

[quaint lodge]

If you wanna be lazy, be lazy, its a dps loss by a tiny percent

Danse Macbre

[short radish]

oh

uh

yeah its not that big its not that small

[quaint lodge]

i thought he was talking shit on sub for a second when he said bs

laughing

[short radish]

i thought he was talking about DN stacks for some reason

honestly just press shadowstrike if you want

its fine

[real panther]

ok, thats what I thought

[short radish]

sub is a spec of lots of small optimisations that add up

[quaint lodge]

Theres that shadow dance macro you can press twice to get backstab, easier than pressing shadowstrike after a bit of time

[short radish]

but like

who cares

its rather minor in the greater scheme of things

[real panther]

I have one for my big cd window but it contains pot x) for soulbinder it's cringe if I pot on the first dance, so that's why I asked tbh. But yeah, i think for that one dance who cares like you said

[quaint lodge]

I have diff macros for raid and M+ cuz im too lazy to pot normally during raid

So you could always just seperate it like that

[real panther]

heh, yeah, but habits, you know xD

but yes, i guess i could

[plush roost]

If your tanks are moving correctly every cd lines up with all 3 of them stacked together. And u hold on the last meta and immediatley send after it

[open glade]

what do you guys think - catalyze a champion (avoidance + socket) helm, or just catalyze a hero helm with none of those extra things

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade wtaf is this damage?

[open glade]

what do you mean

[kind river]

not sure what key level but that seems appropriate

he's in gear that is better than last patches gear

new fury tier probably

and new fury "bug" introduced recently

either that or the recent change to fury was fixing a bug (I don't know if they consider the 4p old interaction a "bug" or not)

so now they crank giga

[lilac stag]

690 lol

[kind river]

690 isn't telling the full picture though

if he's 4p and has a crafted 720 weapon

that's pretty good

even if his other slots are sandbagged

also, it's fury

they are just cranking ass after their 4p bug or unbug change

[novel zodiac]

yo quick question how bad for sub is that tank is chain pulling ?

[hollow spear]

it doesn't matter

[stray oyster]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[nova cairn]

Is there a soak we don’t want to be on araz?

Like it lines up badly with cds

[sinful marten]

with how many coup stacks should i aim to go into dance/cds with?

[fast iron]

can i pre-cloak priory 2nd boss soaks?

[hazy breach]

Yesnt, only the first second of cloak works

[fast iron]

so what does that mean

i can only soak one?

[hazy breach]

Yes or two if you can live a few ticks

[rigid remnant]

is it safe to do a macro with shadow blades+ secret technique? for optimal play. reading the guide and looking at logs u never go into cds without Secret tehcnique ready

[hazy breach]

Soak 1 > soak second +cloak

[fast iron]

can i like

soak 1 > dwarf > soak second with cloak?

[hazy breach]

No

[alpine wraith]

you can soak 2 fast then cloak

if you can survive the initial hits

[fast iron]

feint>take two>insta cloak?

[alpine wraith]

if you are fast yes

[fast iron]

alright

[hazy breach]

Not the first usually

[hazy breach]

Generally its not something thats super important. You typically time your dances around add spawns or when you know you wont get forced of the boss etc

But as long as you dont have 0 stacks and get unlucky you generally get your coup in dance, but ofc the more the merrier

[lilac stag]

this is after making my 720. 710hunt/712feral. granted a 5 priory but lulz wee cookin

[keen dome]

I like the nickname on details you've gone for

[kind river]

lol

sheesh

maybe I need to alt my warrior this patch

I kinda want to do warlock instead though since they have sick looking tier this patch

[lilac stag]

so basically zero trinket dmg

[sinful marten]

ye but on something like frac or plexus where i dont need to time dances

im not sure if its better to dance with fully stacked coup or like 2 stacks

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter, just go when sectech is ready

[sinful marten]

because if i sectech i feel like i will waste unseen blade procs to build to coup

[hazy breach]

(but ofc make sure you dont screw up your blades by using too many)

[lucid jackal]

That sigil is like, the best non raid trinket u can get when its at 704

for furty

[hazy breach]

It gives a bunch of vers too doesnt it

[lilac stag]

big 681 energy

[hazy breach]

Besides the damage

[lilac stag]

looking at the vers uptime

first time using it

feels like a raging blow bot

i was just tossing on ilvl

57% uptime on the vers

[lucid jackal]

I have that and the on use lowest stat one and theres 0 dungeon trinkets better than it

Only raid trinket thats better is the screamer

I need mythic items to replace them

[lilac stag]

heroic or champ on it?

[lucid jackal]

chanmp but 704

[lilac stag]

i was just flat out shocked at the dmg output in general.

[lucid jackal]

Fury got really good with the buff/bug fix

[lilac stag]

guess i'll fill dev vaults this week

if that trinket is that good

[lucid jackal]

I just use the vendor idk

vendor is OP

[lilac stag]

i did the vendor

but if rest of vault is poop, maybe heroic version

legit just geared it yesterday to fill in heroic raid

[lilac stag]

if you're not going to raise the helm over 704 then it's probably better to cata the champ. we have more than enough charges

[still anvil]

is the cheat death limit still 2x max hp?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Or well, the overkill cap is 2x your max health to be a bit more specific

[still anvil]

so mythic nexus king's p3 twilight spikes, i live 1 but not 2 (unless feint maybe)

[hazy breach]

Should live one just fine with feint (without cheating)

[sick karma]

/WA

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Or wait you mean the circles on the ground maybe, idk how much they do

Thought you meant starkiller targeted thing

[still anvil]

journal says 30mill, this is what i was hit with

its rarely just 1 unfortunately

[hazy breach]

To the right of that you can read how much it does U

[still anvil]

ive been using elusiveness, but since we should be single digit pulls away from killing it, i thought about swapping to cheat to prevent p3 fails

[hazy breach]

Which is unmitigated

[still anvil]

oh i actually misread the overkill as 40 million oops

[warm marlin]

Did you feint that or is that evasion dr

idk if feint works on it

[hazy breach]

Looks like just passive dr with vers+devo+atrophic+maybe the 10% dance one

[warm marlin]

It might overkill through cheat

[warm marlin]

no way that multiplicatively adds up to 30%

[hazy breach]

If it does 27m its never gonna overkill cheat unless you tank multiple

[still anvil]

wcl only shows fade to nothing dr, so natty probably

[warm marlin]

holy moly

[hazy breach]

And fazed too

[still anvil]

this is 1 frame before death, so it might actually be only 1 i clipped

[still anvil]

but speaking of, do you happen to know if thats affected by normal feint?

because if it is, i feel comfortable switching off of elusiveness

if not, i probably shouldnt

[warm marlin]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[limpid sage]

blessing of autumn reduces both flag and blades cd right?

[warm marlin]

feint works

think i can calculate if it would be possible to live with elu, cheat maybe safer

[still anvil]

the sheet says its not

i mean you live it without a def cd if you are full hp, but that is risky
so the 20% dr definitely helps
but with cheat, i basically dont have any dr to use on that (if normal feint doesnt work)

[warm marlin]

it does 27 million no?

[still anvil]

i was referring to starkiller swing

[warm marlin]

oh

yea that one is just raw

big crimson vial angle

[still anvil]

i dont think its worth the risk to drop elusiveness tbh then, at least for me
i can just cloak the dodge set where i have to use cds i guess to be safe

[warm marlin]

you probably do live this with feint now btw, depending on how much vers you're running

need to be topped

[still anvil]

30% out of combat, + vantus, so yea probably

but you are likely to be hit by 2-3 on those dodges

[limpid sage]

ok I get how people get hit by beam now on dimensius

if you come from taking the shooting star

[warm marlin]

i might be crazy but pretty sure its a bit bigger on mythic

[limpid sage]

it's not even close and you still get hit

[warm marlin]

our first time like 3 guild members and i ran the route we were used to from heroic and all died

[empty girder]

For boss abilities like the jav in ecodome or first streets boss -- when do you hit cloak? Before the cast goes off or after or does it not matter?

[wispy crystal]

for bosses like loomithar and forge weaver and king,

are we saving 2x dance + blades/flag for these moments when they take increased damage?

feels really hard to time it perfectly

either hold for too long, or use it too early and when that phase starts its on CD

[plush roost]

Precloak, within 1 second is what i do usually

[lilac stag]

You can see where trinket / cd usage is on lorrgs.io and see what fits in with your kill times

[proven plover]

can someone bless me with a myth prism drop today

[plush roost]

If loom is at 55% he will phase before the webs finish enclosing (if your dps is human) and its fine for sub to hold cds for those 10 seconds

[plush roost]

Habibi habubu, i hex your prism with a labubu

[karmic harbor]

Loomithar lasts for as long as she is under 50%

[wispy crystal]

ty let me see for this

[proven plover]

did you just curse me

[plush roost]

For forgeweaver, u can flag at 22 seconds and get it back in time for the first amp. On pylon intermission backstab and whiteswing for 14 sht stacks and blow up the boss

[plush roost]

🙂

If i cant have it

Nobody can

!!!!

[glass cape]

it's jsut weird to me that sub doesnt run the subterfuge line

and it runs tea

[proven plover]

why is it weird

stealth is not that big for us at all

dance is doing all the lifting together with the other overlapping cds

[glass cape]

but flavorwise we're SUB rogue

[wispy crystal]

flag at 22s means we hold CDs 22s after the fight starts?

[lilac stag]

No

Send dance immediately

Hold flag blades trinket

[dusty totem]

We don't really care for the energy from tea right?

We just use it for the mastery

[lilac stag]

Correct

[dusty totem]

Nice thanks

[glass cape]

where do we get out energy from?

[keen dome]

Symbols, Shadow Techniques

[upper flame]

Hello! Sorry to bother you all, but I'm trying to switch over to sub from playing ass and I was wondering if anyone could point me to a good resource for learning the rotation?

[limber folio]

for nexus, are people running EB or EE?

[keen dome]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[keen dome]

They're all excellent

[upper flame]

It's kind of hard for me to parse through the wowhead guide... I'm not really sure where to find a like "click this then click this then click this" explanation outside of the opener

[glass cape]

is sould breakers sigil like...a sleeper good trinket? I have mine on hero track

[shrewd lantern]

its one of the better damage proc trinkets

[limber folio]

@tepid trellis what you think about these dances for nexus :3

[quaint lodge]

Shindig on youtube has agood video

[glass cape]

I have that pacemaker and crystal and im not sure what to use

[upper flame]

Thank you ❤️

[keen dome]

If in doubt - sim 🙂

[quaint lodge]

I agree the guides are a bit hard to read through if you're not familiar with the stuff, but that youtube video breaks things down quite well

[upper flame]

Do you think sub is fun to play once you learn it?

[keen dome]

Yes

[quaint lodge]

I enjoy it more than assa in the current iteration

[keen dome]

It's purple

[upper flame]

Ok, thank you!~

[shrewd lantern]

depends if you like bursting

[keen dome]

Purple is good

[shrewd lantern]

then kind of tank damage outside cds

profile

[glass cape]

Prot war is good damage tho

[keen dome]

Ideal posting time outside cds, you mean

[shrewd lantern]

real

time to spread misinformation

while waiting for flag

[keen dome]

Ideal time to annoy people in raid general chat mid-fight

[upper flame]

Do you have a specific talent build you recommend learning first for the spec btw? Sorry again for the many questions.

[glass cape]

I just like playing trickster

[keen dome]

The ones on WoWhead are a good starting point

[shrewd lantern]

realistically take the raid build

it works for most content

[upper flame]

Ok, fair enough

[shrewd lantern]

swapping 1-2 points

[glass cape]

and I dont like Keep it rolling

[upper flame]

the one with cold blood?

[glass cape]

XD

[shrewd lantern]

yes

[keen dome]

Yeah

[upper flame]

ok bet

ty ❤️

[keen dome]

You can use coldblood in M+ too so it's pretty good practice and a great starting point

Nothing in our rotation massively changes between builds, either.

[upper flame]

This look ok?

[shrewd lantern]

yeah you can take out planned execution and imp sht

for replacing shadows

+something else

works for most content

[upper flame]

What would you recommend?

[shrewd lantern]

rotten or a point in finality

[chrome palm]

unbreakable stride and rushed setup do literally nothing use airborne irritant instead for an aoe stop

[upper flame]

oooh ok

[shrewd lantern]

you can drop shiv for leeching poison

if thats your thing

[chrome palm]

you cant

[upper flame]

Oh gosh I'm getting overwhelmed haha. Would you mind pasting your code for what you recommend?

[shrewd lantern]

hmm thats the setup i have though

[chrome palm]

you have to choose between leeching and soothing darkness

you cant budget that many that far down

[glass cape]

is shiv still a dispel?

[keen dome]

Ye

For Sub the only use it has is as a de-enrage

[shrewd lantern]

oh right i dont have soothing

[glass cape]

I take shiv because it makes me fell like I'm helping 😄

[upper flame]

huh. we don't even use shiv as sub rogues? 😮

[keen dome]

Zero use in raiding. Sometimes useful in m+

no

[upper flame]

wild

my ass head is reeling at this

you guys are blowing my goddang gourd

[shrewd lantern]

its literally a utility point for sub/outlaw

hold up does soothing apply on dance

idr

[tired dome]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[chrome palm]

CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAMz2MAAAAAAMLMWmGzwMzMzYMjHwMjhxsNLGzstMzMmZmBMWmlBAAAgZwAYMbGGYgZRL0iNYA
i like this

[upper flame]

Thank you!

[tired dome]

Does it matter how many stacks Unyielding Netherprism has or do you just send it between Araz's CD?

[keen dome]

There's not a huge amount of variance in Sub builds as compared to Assa so you can just learn the core and fiddle with it as you get used to the spec.

[chrome palm]

improved wound poison is good for gambit and halls if you arent doing those you can put that point into shadowrunner or something

[upper flame]

Neat 🙂

[shrewd lantern]

yeah most of sub's points

are kind of static

[keen dome]

nightrunner 4 life gotta go fast

[shrewd lantern]

theres maybe 2-3 pts you move around

[keen dome]

My raid build and my M+ build has 2 nodes different lol

[clever delta]

i just checked salamander logs and assa is just 5% buff off being best spec for that boss 😄

its happening again i can feel it

[chrome palm]

all of these are either highly situational or useless

[shrewd lantern]

hey

massive shadowheart healing

[glass cape]

i like moving faaaaaaaast

[tepid trellis]

just watch them nerf the platform again, so all you care about is boss dmg

and its already better

[clever delta]

yes

i can already see it

its always like that

im still stuck on that boss 😄

it was same with bandit

[keen dome]

Shadowrunner is never useless, you take that back.

[clever delta]

i swapped to assa mid progg 😄

[keen dome]

+20% speed is VERY important it means I can power up my stabs by running at them

[slate marlin]

I like it

[chrome palm]

i love speed creeping faster than peoples mounts

[slate marlin]

Yeah

u have 15% more ms

20% more in stealth

[keen dome]

Yeah it owns

Nightrunner, Fade to Nothing

[slate marlin]

And i have 10% in gear

[chrome palm]

i had a shitty trinket drop with speed on it and it gives me like 9% MS by itself

[shrewd lantern]

ngl its fun outrunning mounts

[keen dome]

I have 14% movespeed, plus nightrunner and fade to nothing (for a tiny bit while it lasts)

[shrewd lantern]

feels more noticeable as outlaw since

moving unmounted is better

[stone patrol]

why

[keen dome]

I wonder at what level you'd beat the Plexus pushback..

[shrewd lantern]

idk if you fully can

i tried saving hunt and felrush still couldnt

on dh in a heroic

[clever delta]

becasue they buffed assa mid progg, and we had more than enough dmg for assistants and it was all about boss dmg in last phase for us

[stone patrol]

ah last raid sorry

[clever delta]

ye

[shrewd lantern]

yeah they turned undermine

into full sin fiesta

after they were tbh equal

[clever delta]

its just always like that

[olive jacinth]

Is it okay to safe second prism for 50% phase on Loomithar?

[chrome palm]

it depends on your timings but youd want to save 18 stacks for first blades <50%

[clever delta]

if you play double on use not really

[glass cape]

why is verse so hard to find T-T

[merry agate]

is there some wierd interaction with first second of cloak and soaking on araz?...
immunity to the debuff in first second or what?

[rigid remnant]

we play elemental focus lense over duskthread in m+?

[chrome palm]

difference is small, duskthread possibly better but you cant put duskthread on weapons/jewelry

[rigid remnant]

ok another question if its ok. in aoe we dont use shuriken storm in shadowdance besides tierset condition, even if shadowstrike brings us to 5cp sometimes so we have to use 2 builder instead of one? the maindriver behind that is unseen blade /escalating balde not triggering from shuriken storm?

[vale pine]

dusk and dawn both have health requirements

so they can fail when you need them the most

[chrome palm]

surely my leech and ee keep me topped

in my cds

[vale pine]

just to be clear, they probably are overall still about the same

or even marginal better

[north schooner]

if by weird interaction you mean that you don't get the debuff during the 1s immunity then yes

[rigid remnant]

thanks, would u be so kind to answer the other question, in case i missed somehting. i like to understand the specc and for now im bit conused 😄

[proven plover]

@plush roost

thank you

[plush roost]

[tepid trellis]

@tribal blade

[vale pine]

nicuuu

how high was the key?

[tepid trellis]

+10

lmfao

[vale pine]

haha

[steel jolt]

were the pulls giga?

[tepid trellis]

just regular priory shit

[ornate lake]

Yesterday I ran 4 +14s and timed all of them, even double chested one.

Today I ran 6 +14s and didn't complete even a single one

Gods indeed work in mysterious ways

50 tier 3 pots wasted lol

[indigo current]

just curious, do you guys use backstab mid burst window to gain danse macabre?

imo too much of a dps loss

[vale pine]

you only rly use backstab as your first builder with premeditation

would not use it else during shadow dance

it also becomes less relevant with higher target counts

[azure crown]

guys what build do u go for dimensius

st or M+

[wispy crystal]

I'm a little confused here.

If flag / blades is 25s away, what should we be doing mainly?

Sending dance symbols with sTec?
Or just backstab for 25s, rupture, auto attack mainly ?

[indigo current]

i mainly play m+ so i tend to focus on not dying/interrupting

while continuing doing some dmg ofc

[karmic harbor]

you can check warcraftlogs

[meager delta]

Hey, i'm new to sub and i wanted to know if is it the normal UI or is it a weak aura ? The combo point thing with the supercharged one

[hushed roost]

Wtf in my first normal

[north schooner]

the combo points are base ui

[keen dome]

Combo point thing is normal, if you mean the combies under the character frame.

[lucid jackal]

Just afk mainly

[lucid jackal]

Backstab, evis/rupture

[meager delta]

Thanks 🙂

[lucid jackal]

And then afk at 20 with coup 10 without fully, no finisher, just stack sht

[wispy crystal]

This is the part I go from top DPS to 10th place, during these 25seconds.

And it feels impossible to catch up after 🙁

[wispy crystal]

So get coup proc and just AFK ?

[hollow spear]

If you cannot catch up then you either have omega pumpers in your group or you're not doing your cooldowns right (more likely)

[wispy crystal]

The plan is always to have 2x dances + blades/flag. And send as many coup in dances as possible right ?

[quaint lodge]

Stop comparing your dps to other people

[wispy crystal]

One question: if no dance, and have a coup proc.

What do you guys usually do with that 1-2 combo points. Send the coup with 1-2 CP?

[quaint lodge]

It doesnt make sense to compare rogue to mage

Compare rogue to rogue, log your runs

You can parse a 100 and do less than a guy doing an 80 parse on a diff class, it just doesnt make sense to compare

[wispy crystal]

Yeah right now if I compare with other classes I feel so demoralised.

[quaint lodge]

Yea knock that off

Theres no point to it

[wispy crystal]

Thanks for the encouragement

[quaint lodge]

Focus on improve, you will improve, but comparing itself isn't going to help you

[wispy crystal]

Can anyone help me here?

[lilac pendant]

With fuu talents he doesnt pick the rotten in raid i still backstab after dance?

[quaint lodge]

Yes, its baed off premeditation

Not the rotten

[vale pine]

xrd

*yes

[wispy crystal]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lilac pendant]

Sorry im mentally stupiod

[vale pine]

you are not stupid

the discord is a good place to ask questions, so don't worry when asking questions

[wispy crystal]

One question: if no dance, and have a coup proc.

What do you guys usually do with that 1-2 combo points. Send the coup with 1-2 CP?

[lucid jackal]

Just stop looking at details lol

[karmic harbor]

do i need more than 1 autumn

[lucid jackal]

It's how the spec works

[lucid jackal]

You build as much as you can until u can't

And then u just coup at 3 or 4 if you have to

[wispy crystal]

Ok that makes sense. With cold blood build energy is quite slow to regen.

So maybe 2 Backstabs before the 5s window of coup runs out

[rose parrot]

Hello, does macroing symbols with sec tech still buff sec tech?

[karmic harbor]

on nexus king sry

[lilac stag]

You don’t need any. 1 helps

[wispy crystal]

Nexus king, do we save CDs for the 100% damage phase on dragon?

Or use it during the adds portion?

[lucid jackal]

On mythic it just lines up

[karmic harbor]

nvm i checked nexus king and everyone in the top 5 gets autumn

[plush roost]

If sod is ahead of sec tec in the string, yes. But you shouldnt macro sod to sec tec

[lucid jackal]

On heroic its mega random

[wispy crystal]

I'm on heroic

[lucid jackal]

On heroic it entirely depends on how fast Ur group is going

[hushed roost]

Wait now I'm confused the double on-use setup isnt bis everywhere?

[lucid jackal]

It never really was

It was a good option that was exceptionally strong on the last 2 on mythic

[hushed roost]

okie me use top gear

[lucid jackal]

But prism + passive was also good

[wispy crystal]

Yeah, sometimes the CDs like up. Most times it doesn't.

Or I just got to hold and wait for it

[hushed roost]

so better to just use like a stat stick

[lilac stag]

Just wait until we’re using forge and playing like a 2 min spec for 3 minute kills

[west tide]

my guild does like a friends and family run and the rogue swapped off cause he said too hard he was learning sub p well

we lost another one we need to preserve our numbers like the eco dome before its too late

[lilac stag]

I had fun being mindless fury warrior this morning

Zugzug

[keen dome]

zugzug life

[rose parrot]

I'm using the macro with the second sec tech during blades. Sometimes my brain just forget to press it...

[iron plover]

LMAO

yes us rogue players are like exotic wild life

But I feel like we’re pretty popular in the keys?

[craggy galleon]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[fickle mason]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[severe fox]

when i quick sim and look at the ability log which i know isnt supposed to be used as an end all be all rotation but it shows that you can get off 2 sec techs in the first dance and i cant get it, i dunno if thats just the bot being perfect or im missing something

nvm i assume its the bloodlust and im actually dumb lmao

[turbid edge]

Sometimes at the end of a dance I have 0.01 sec left with full cp. Do I send a finisher with the risk it's not in dance or just hold for next dance then do like dance > finisher > backstab > finisher?

[limpid sage]

new tech might've just dropped

symbols pre-shadowstrike when opening

you'll clip the duration anyway and you just get more sht stacks

[vale pine]

not sure what you mean

[limpid sage]

so instead of SS->Flag->Rupture->Symbols+Dance->backstab->blades+sectec you use symbols before the SS

so far I've been able to get the cb sectec in first dance super consistently from the extra sht stacks

[karmic harbor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[karmic harbor]

do one of these track sht / disorienting strikes

[vale pine]

nope

[scarlet gull]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[plush glen]

Is it best to make an effort not to drop below 30 energy outside of cds so you always have a tea for dance?

[vale pine]

does not matter much

[haughty rose]

where can i see my miss chance for antenna in logs?

[north schooner]

there are two different buffs named Astral Antenna, if they have exactly the same count you didn't miss any

spell id 1239640 is the buff you get while an orb is chasing you, and spell id *41 is the crit buff

[hidden oar]

What is reducing flagellatin cooldown because I kind of dont understand how sub can cast flag+sb after 80 seconds instead of 90
https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/nexusking-salhadaar

[karmic harbor]

if i do two shadow dances close together am i trolling by not farming up sht stacks

[hazy breach]

Blessing of autumn

From paladins

Holy paladins

[thin sinew]

Do we have a general consensuses on m forgeweave for adds if it's worth BP or just slamming normal rotation.

Reason i ask it's +4 but all high logs seem to forgo BP completely

[hidden oar]

ahh ok thanks

[sullen yarrow]

why this guy running that embelish

[rigid delta]

For our 2nd coup does it matter too much how many combo points it gets sent with?

[limpid sage]

it's within 0.1% of eachother and vers is more valuable in higher keys

[sullen yarrow]

so what should i do

[shrewd lantern]

wow player realizes embellishes dont fucking matter

[clever delta]

damn first time reaching amp phase on salamander 😄

dosnt feel bad being #1 at all phases 😄

[lilac stag]

@tepid trellis I'll see your 10 Prior with an 11 Gambit. 695 ivl other two are 712

[lilac stag]

by the time you're likely hitting BP it's not worth it

[wheat sentinel]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

if there still 4+ at your first natty evis, have at it with BP

[thin sinew]

Yeh that's what i thought doesn't help my team is super inconsistent with their add damage

[lilac stag]

it's one key press or the other. shouldnt be a big deal

if you need to help with target count, grab the WA right above

[scenic plover]

is nexus mythic just blades on cd?

[thin sinew]

naa not a big deal i'm just hyper optimising while the rest of my team sort themselves out.

[wheat sentinel]

So, what determines if finality or rotten are better for a given dungeon run?

[scenic plover]

should i go ephemeral bond or exhilirating execution for mythic nexus king ?

[tepid trellis]

i personally think execution is better on that fight

[fallen marsh]

!buugs

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[plush glen]

It’s probably inting to macro dance with symbols because you wouldn’t want your backstab to consume a rotten right?

[real hare]

tracking secret stacks for free cast is impossible. Sometimes i get stacks well after i use my first finisher meaning i have like 0.1 sec to react

[warm pond]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[karmic harbor]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/nexusking-salhadaar

yes

if ur paladin can give you autumn that helps too

[plush glen]

What's the purpose of the weird thistle tea macro?

[fossil forge]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[lucid spindle]

so with 3+ targets i can get to like 5/6ish mil in dmg inside of my like blades and flag cds but outside of our opener w just dance and symbols im lost on what i should be pressing to keep dmg up. + how to maximize dmg when flag and blades come back up. like are we supposed to vanish to “re-open”?

[craggy prairie]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[craggy prairie]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sinful marten]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AtCLNq6PyckJDjWw?fight=22&type=damage-done&source=54

[craggy prairie]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[sinful marten]

why is my coup dmg so low compared to others

do i just get less procs or what

[honest jetty]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[left parcel]

this might be a stupid question but what purpose to rupture serve in sub other than damage and is it as important to keep ruptures on multiple targets as it is for assassination?

[chrome palm]

does damage and expends combo points (gives energy and cdr)

[tired dome]

Does it matter how many stacks are on Unyielding Netherprism, or do you just send it with however many stacks with Dance in between Araz cd?

[karmic harbor]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[jade compass]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[icy spade]

How do you consistently get 4 stacks of Unseen Blade during the opening before the 2nd Secret tech? I'm having an issue on some pulls to get past 3 stacks, and it feels very awkward, like I am dependent on Thousand Cuts to proc.

[chrome palm]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[scenic plover]

dont have pala, he is benched on the boss

[karmic harbor]

i think its fine w.o but ye just cast on cd

[severe fox]

so in aoe is it worth to use at least one shuriken storm in dance for the Danse stack or do you dont care and just use shadowstrike?

[sinful depot]

Question.. on like a 16/17 floodgate - are you holding cds for big mommas damage amp or sending cds to kill the drones?

[lucid jackal]

You don't need it

[swift cloak]

is wowhead tornado build good ? or if not can someone send string for tornado build

[shrewd lantern]

tornado a stinker

[swift cloak]

ik but wanted to give it a try

i feel like i lack something on 15+ keys

[shrewd lantern]

Thats so vague

[swift cloak]

!log

[tulip folio]

do

we play

the rotten

in m+

?

[shadow lance]

Play

what

you

wanna

play

[tulip folio]

but

[shadow lance]

!

[tulip folio]

is

it

optimal

sir

[vale pine]

i am happy i can delete multiple messages at the same time with the bot

you can play rotten, its not needed tho

personal preference

[shadow lance]

2% diff for me but who cares?

[clever delta]

do we still game elu on salamander?

i feel like shit playing cheat 😄

[shadow lance]

You like the talent? Play it.
You don't? Play finality
You wanna be optimal? Listen the the robot

[tired dome]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[north schooner]

goremaw gloomblade it is

[tired dome]

Why is it bad to macro Symbols with Dance or Blades?

[plush glen]

Does rotten change anything rotationally over finality?

[wispy lion]

personally i'm fine with macro
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Symbols
but i also have different button for Symbols itselves

in fact i also added backstab to it, so i can do combo just with one button

[tired dome]

Yeah I dont really understand why it would be bad

[vale pine]

your 2nd dance in 90 sec cooldowns

has symbols delayed many times

so you would not be able to supercharge your 2nd secret cast

which is empowered by cold blood too

[shrewd lantern]

usually still in your first symbols window

when first dance ends

due to inev

[vagrant fulcrum]

i think symbols on blades is fine tbh

[vale pine]

pandemic is 30%

[vagrant fulcrum]

dance is where the problem lies

[shrewd lantern]

man

the start key outside instance is great

go into pull with an 18 stack prism

[tired dome]

why does blizz have to make Sub so tight on timings

[vale pine]

its in part intentional

[kind river]

is expose weakness something your supposed to actually think about in aoe or does it deserve zero thought process and just play like normal

[vale pine]

tho overall, very likely just because there is not enough dev time spend on the spec to remove rough edges

[shrewd lantern]

is the window that tight

ig you cant miss globals

but missing globals as any melee is bad

[tired dome]

yeah i mean i hardly remember sub ever being viable in any other expansions

[shrewd lantern]

?

df

SL

bfa was the only bad one

[kind river]

bfa was outlaw and assa

for rogue stuff basically

[plush glen]

encrypted was sub/ol

[lucid jackal]

It's only been the best prog spec for the past 6 years

[karmic harbor]

sometimes you dance without pressing symbols, but if you have a seperate keybind its whatever. i use a dance/symbols/backstab macro for opener

[sullen hare]

I didn't mind s3/s4 SL sub. AoE shadow strikes were dope

[tepid trellis]

[tired dome]

Yea I do have dance bound without symbols and one with

[karmic harbor]

sub hasnt been good since zul

[turbid edge]

Sometimes at the end of a dance I have 0.01 sec left with full cp. Do I send a finisher with the risk it's not in dance or just hold for next dance then do like dance > finisher > backstab > finisher?

[karmic harbor]

that's fine then

[tired dome]

I think I get my 2nd SecTec off with full flag stacks, blades and symbols active

[karmic harbor]

is your sectec supercharged

[fallow ginkgo]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tired dome]

Yeah

[wispy lion]

If I use a Secret Technique in the last half second of the Shadow Dance, will it deal full damage after the Dance ends?

[shrewd lantern]

need to redance

before the clones hit

[wispy lion]

so sad

[shrewd lantern]

its dynamic so yeah

[inner garnet]

theres no way to buff up netherprism before dung with dummies right?

[tired dome]

!4pc

[shrewd lantern]

be outside the instance when the timer hits 0

and you dont lose prism

[inner garnet]

<3

[shrewd lantern]

less effective in pugs

who wont wait for you to zone back in

[inner garnet]

Surely, this was also meant to coordinated high keys with friends.

[fast relic]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[shrewd lantern]

yeah drop a turnip or something outside

beat on it

[haughty sun]

Is it possible to use lily with araz, as I got my araz mythic trinket from raid tonight? Don't have prism :/

[shrewd lantern]

no

[random comet]

I feel like we need a pin saying 2x on use is exclusively araz+prism and nothing else

[shrewd lantern]

call the other ones temu version

aka shit

[karmic harbor]

erm you can use lily too wtf...

[sullen hare]

It's just cursed as hell

[shrewd lantern]

not really no

[random comet]

You can use a tank trinket mate that’s not the point

[shrewd lantern]

just play a passive trinket idk whats the problem

[karmic harbor]

yet lily + prism sims higher for me than hc forge + prism

[shrewd lantern]

hc lily?

[karmic harbor]

ill trust the robot over u guys

[shrewd lantern]

you cant sim different tracks

[random comet]

Do you know how the robot uses lily and prism

[karmic harbor]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[lusty solar]

The thing is forge+prism is crazy on the last two bosses

[karmic harbor]

If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.
oh geez...

[lusty solar]

But in a normal fight its whatever

[sullen hare]

I just use prism and sigil and sleep super well at night

[karmic harbor]

why is this in here if lily is tank trinket tier

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah people dont get context

[lusty solar]

Like fractillus

[shrewd lantern]

you really cant compare hc forge

with a myth lily

[karmic harbor]

I feel like we need a pin saying 2x on use is exclusively araz+prism and nothing else

[shrewd lantern]

13 ilvl is alot

[lusty solar]

Of course in a 5min sim double active is not that good

[shrewd lantern]

just get mythic prism and forge

are you trying

[sullen hare]

[shrewd lantern]

ill sim myth lily vs my pace

[karmic harbor]

might have to report this guy, doesn't he know double on use is forge + prism only???

[shrewd lantern]

when i get back to pc

[random comet]

Have you simmed for prism + passive or lily+ passive as well

[karmic harbor]

yes, lily clears

[shrewd lantern]

is this an hc lily

[random comet]

Aight, I’ll defer to the robot then

I just can’t see how treating lily as a 3min every second use is good but maybe it is

[lusty solar]

The only thing robot shows you is damage for ST fights

Theres like 3 of those

[vagrant fulcrum]

It’s not

The first two uses are on cd

It’s every 3rd lily you replace

[shrewd lantern]

either way imagine not having a myth forge

[lusty solar]

Im rocking hc forge and myth prism on dimensius

[random comet]

0 - lily
1.5 - lily
3 - prism
4.5 - lily
6 - prism

Etc

[lusty solar]

No luck

[shrewd lantern]

cursed

[hazy breach]

It is every other, just not the first two

[tacit aurora]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hazy breach]

But yeah lily is a bit oof, sims pretty well though

[random comet]

Does the sim use it as per that order?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[lusty solar]

Do a quick sim, it Will show you the usage

[random comet]

So yeah after the first where you get two in a row, it’s a 3min trinket. Again not gonna argue with the robot but that seems cooked AF

[hazy breach]

I mean what else are you gonna do

[random comet]

Probably simming 5 min dslice overvalues that then

[hazy breach]

Using it on blades is better than using it twice on non-blades

Dslice is 6 min, but yeah

It also overvalues double on-use in general

[random comet]

Yeah

[hazy breach]

Since the fights are short

Or well, most raid fights are

[random comet]

I mean my argument is that I’d rather use a passive than treat a 1.5m trinket as a 3min

But robot says different so 💁‍♂️

[lusty solar]

All your damage is in your CDs so, no surprise

[shrewd lantern]

maghar on top

[random comet]

Raid fight makes sense since you would only “miss” one lily use in a 6min fight which seems to be about where they sit

[shrewd lantern]

for a reason too

[pulsar mist]

Im so very sorry guys, but im in almost desperate help, im pretty geared as a sub rogue but my damage is horrendous, is there a way i can link my logs to see what im doing wrong please?

[random comet]

You’re not missing a trinket for any cds though, but with lily you’re literally not using it as often as it’s budgeted for in keys if you use it with prism

Just saying it seems counterintuitive but maybe it’s just that overbudgetted or good or whatever

[still anvil]

btw i got hit again in our kill lmao, but i lived with feint
i used feint 25 milliseconds before i got hit 💀

[fossil forge]

r u brevs running cheatdeath or elusiveness on saladbar

[warm marlin]

brazy stuff

but max said rogue was squishy

[lusty solar]

Elusiveness

[still anvil]

imo 99% of prog is getting through p1 consistently
so definitely elusiveness for me

[warm marlin]

i do think elusiveness is much better

[lusty solar]

Ye and cheat doesnt work on p1

[warm marlin]

i think i had exactly one death in entirety of prog that cheat would have saved me

[still anvil]

otherwise you cant even feint claws, you cant feint banishment in p1

its just so much more comfy

[warm marlin]

cheat is a bit better than it was in rwf though, can cloak banishment now

[still anvil]

i just liked keeping cloak for the adds, because i didnt feel like banishments were scary
especially in the post-nerf pulls

[lusty solar]

I was saving cloak to help someone who missed soul

Soaking with the tank

[warm marlin]

can use it on banishments pre1min into the fight

i dont know how people were sitting it without elu thouogh

guess some gamer healers

[still anvil]

yea i just used it on whatever pre 1min

[raven mortar]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[high wadi]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tired dome]

Are there ever instances where its okay to use 5 CP on finishers, or does it always need to be 6+ CP for every finisher?

[iron imp]

I can give you permission to use 5 CP on finishers if you'd like

[hazy breach]

If you have supercharger or coup up, which technically pulls it up to 8/10 cp spent

[dire hare]

are yall using black powder on araz mythic?

was watching shindig and noticed he wasnt using it and was curious why

[lucid jackal]

Because ball damage is irrelevant

[quasi portal]

Adds wil die regardless - use ti if you have problems with killing them - boss dmg kills bosses

[dire hare]

makes sense ty

[carmine drum]

Anyone got a link to the most agreed upon m+ build?
I tried going for thistle instead of cold blood, but i feel that cold blood is more impactfull? Am i tripping?
Full build link would be appreciated. And a single target focused raid/m+ build would be cool too❤️

[heady kestrel]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[carmine drum]

And what overall dps should i be looking at by the end of keys? 15+ and above. I usually end up in third overall, but my tank says it doesnt mather cause the prio dmg burst windows are more impactfull than overall dmg done. But looking at dps breakdowns from top tier rogues, they many times end up out dpsing other top performing specs. Thanks for all feedback in advance❤️

[heady kestrel]

What's the name of the trickster 4pc buff? I can't it when it procs, unless it's hidden

[hazy breach]

its the same buff as regular coup

Escalating blade

[wispy lion]

on 4 stack it start ticking 5 sec timer

when you use first coup

[hazy breach]

Sometimes its 7 seconds

And im not sure why

[dusk stone]

Top of the chart if not very close to it

[carmine drum]

Then i must be doing something wrong i guess 😅

[dusk stone]

It depends on the comp too

[lilac stag]

Have you look at possibility of supercharged coup extending it to 7?

I swear that causes it some times

[heady kestrel]

During shadow blades with shuriken storm between coup de graces, am I always supposed to shuriken storm in between casts, or am I allowed to immediately press coup de grace again if I get a shadowcraft proc to full cp?

[hazy breach]

Its definitely not only that

[hazy breach]

No you are not supposed to use a combo point builder when you do not need to build combo points

[wispy lion]

its just a minmax as far as i know, but its fine not to use it

[heady kestrel]

Gotcha, I figured, I just wanted to clarify since the guide said to do it but didn't specify. Thanks!

[rapid flare]

press coup again. Shuriken storm to build CP is just to avoid munching unseen blade. If you get full CP from Shadowcraft, you're good

[wispy lion]

but dont use shadowstrike between them, this is only mandatory xd

[lilac stag]

Ok. That’s been what sticking out to me with it.

[hazy breach]

Ye just double checked and its happening without supercharger on coup as well

[wispy crystal]

Just for my understanding. Sub shines when we can funnel damage with adds into boss right?

On pure ST boss fights it tends to struggle since we have 0 benefit from nimble flurry, and alot of waiting time between CDs?

[hazy breach]

I think youve missunderstood what funnel means, we do not gain damage to the boss by having additional mobs nearby

Which is what funnel is

Sub is good at doing damage to adds, especially in raid the ST is insanely lackluster and the only reason its not horrendously bad is because some of the bosses seem to have been designed specifically for sub to be good

(like dimensius)

[empty plume]

sub funnels (kinda indirectly) outside cds by using shuriken storm for extra cp generation + cd refunding
half the time we just eat all the cleave adds and fuck other peoples' funnel, half the time we wish there were adds to shuriken storm

[hazy breach]

Slightly more cdr ye so technically funnel, but its very minor

[dusk stone]

Why do people think sub has funnel lol

[empty plume]

in raid context you are usually using CDs to kill the cleave fast

[hazy breach]

Especially compared to assa m+ spec which is like 80% more

[hazy breach]

Because it did in the past

[dusk stone]

Isnt that from like 6 years ago

[hazy breach]

Yes

[empty plume]

we funnel sometimes, it's just indirect and usually the other people in your group have no way of knowing where you are in your rotation

if you can replace "backstab soup" with storm-finisher storm-finisher it's nice

if they pull adds into an M+ boss during your CDs, nothing changes and you do not benefit in any funnel capacity, you just farm the cleave for dps

[dusk stone]

Which is good

[empty plume]

both situations good

[dusk stone]

We like adds dying in keys and sub is very good in that scenario

[empty plume]

just one is 'funnel' and one is cleave, and the funnel is extremely minor and more like... gaining damage later by cycling your CDs a bit faster than ST

[dusk stone]

Ig whole situation kinda shows how long since weve been good

I actully compete with dks in 15s

[empty plume]

I suspect that anyone who could beat me on overall already pushed past 3100 and exists in 16-18 range

because I have only not topped a key one time

[dusk stone]

Yeah im still running into bad healers

Well sub is also just strong and competitive

[tribal blade]

JEEEsus

[dusk stone]

One thing we bring to keys is we just dont die. You take 30-60%+ less damage than everyone and ehps like half of that back

[north schooner]

you can funnel by playing DS (but that's self abuse)

[dusk stone]

Like subs survivability is wild

Healers can legit let you die because they think you dont need a lot of healing at times

[tribal blade]

any plans on pushing this season?

[warm marlin]

the funnel from storm outside cds is so so minor though

[dusk stone]

Exhil exec is a strong talent

Ive been running nado a lot, its an underrated talent

[random comet]

I don’t think people’s distaste for nado is because of its power,

[fossil forge]

imma need them talents boy

[random comet]

Just feels weird to use

[tribal blade]

it's not a talent diff, it's a player diff 😉

[fossil forge]

yea i need to compare talents though

[wheat sentinel]

It's been awhile, does wound poison stack with things like mortal strike?

I forget, lol. Noob question.

[dusk stone]

Im not sure why people dislike nado

[wispy crystal]

How come sub is good on dimensius? The 2nd phase with all the little void adds and the 1 main fat add we can cleave ?

[dusk stone]

Like its kinda cancer to apply rupture with it but the cdr is fine

[wispy crystal]

My ST is pretty bad on single target. Maybe decent for sub rogue standards, but compared to other classes it falls off 😞

[lucid jackal]

More than

[lilac pendant]

Anyone knows how much does the second sextech hits for on opener?

[lucid jackal]

Huge

[fossil forge]

r u abusing the prism tech

[wheat sentinel]

the hwat

[tribal blade]

haven't heard of it, what is it

[shrewd lantern]

thats stealthis ss so he has mythic prism and araz

[shrewd lantern]

be outside the instance when key timer hits 0

[wispy crystal]

Are you running the healing talent for M+ where you receive 8% more healing ?

[shrewd lantern]

your prism wont reset

[covert meteor]

What the

Need to do that for flood and priory

[fossil forge]

nah bro leaked the forbidden sauce for 0

[lucid jackal]

I like the shield

[shrewd lantern]

I mean since he has double mythic on use

[lilac pendant]

[shrewd lantern]

i imagine you araz first pack

[covert meteor]

Imagine having forge and prism

[fossil forge]

imagine not having forge and prism

[shrewd lantern]

also 5m prot warrior

means your tank has a pair

to pull larger

idk rio has him as rotten+replicating

standard cb build

[covert meteor]

No guild, only pugging, no vault luck = gg

Diffed

It ain't much, but it's honest work

[fossil forge]

with my luck i would never acquire either

you can always throw gold at items though

[covert meteor]

Hell nahw

Would be fine if boosting would pay

But this late, prices are kinda low, good enough ig for own vault

[tranquil sorrel]

Quesiton, why do we shuriken storm after a coup in SB?

what's wrong with retriggering unseen blade?

I dont get it

[lucid jackal]

You cant generate stacks in between coups

So storm lets u store an EB proc for after u spend both coups

[woeful wren]

I was curious as well on this, rather than always doing:
backstab(trigger coup)>coup>storm>coup
would it be fine to send another builder so u have enough stacks of st to:
builder>overcap builder>coup>coup

[dusk stone]

No. Its the 2nd talent on far right of sub tree exhilarating execution

[strange harness]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[willow bobcat]

You Storm because the other builders can make EB proc thus wasting it if you have the 4p up, second scenario doesn't reliably line up.

[strange harness]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[woeful wren]

I understand the why. All I've asked is that if in that scenario can you