subtlety

[short radish]

i guess????

[eternal abyss]

I binded Dance+Backstab, don't see anything wrong with that tho
But maybe I'm wrong.

[short radish]

because you cant dance in dance

[warm marlin]

Sectec first greatly increases the chance you get both coups in your dance

It’s good

[short radish]

and youre probably not sending naked sectech

[limpid sage]

Ye exactly

[short radish]

but i dunno

that still sounds

wack

[hazy breach]

You dont need to sectech immediately, you also dont need to backstab first

[short radish]

i dont like it

[hazy breach]

Both are fine

[short radish]

and i need to have a shower

[limpid sage]

And the times you would, you don’t have any dance charges anyway

Checkmate atheist

[short radish]

i think it makes sense though

but it still feels wrong

as long as you have a separate dance bind

which you do

[hoary bloom]

!belt

[strong ore]

this is how I have it set up

[limpid sage]

Me too, but as a castsequence

[wispy crystal]

So if sTec is available.
Symbols and Dance is on CD.

Do we just do nothing but backstab ?

[night sparrow]

Yes

[wispy crystal]

If blades and flag is coming up in 20s.

We have symbols and sTec ready. Do we usually send a naked sTec?

[plush roost]

No

20 seconds far too short

Sec tec 54 sec cd, -1 per cp.spent

Youd need to spend 34 cp to make it in time

Which just isnt feasable as sub out of cds

[drowsy moon]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CF2XcvDTQBR1ybNJ?fight=20&type=damage-done&source=7 whas my mistake D:

[plush roost]

/cast [stance:0] Shadow Dance
/cast [stance:2] Backstab

A 2 for one and u cant have random cast sequencing errors

[jaunty island]

how many flawless stacks are common in burst phase?

[plush roost]

13-14 is what i would say is the medium

But you can have like 20+ if good procs

[jaunty island]

thank u very much , that what i thought

cause sometimes i hit 25+

[plush roost]

Yeah they dont refresh duration so each stack is on an independant timer

[jaunty island]

but this is 35% for the procc right?

[plush roost]

So you can peak at a high number but it wont last

35% chance to proc 2, and coup gives 5 per

Thats why we cb the second sec tec

Since having insane procs and being at 25 stacks of flawless (75% damage) and 30 stacks of flag (75% damage) is really strong it turns out

[stone slate]

well now i know how people feel when they try outlaw for the first time lmao im smashing buttons on sub without any clue if i do it right haha

[short radish]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[stone slate]

i have outlaw stats too, haste/vers heavy, gonna drop some haste and build some mastery tho first - before i compare anything but thanks you @short radish ❤️

[short radish]

no wokkas

yeah just replace all your neck/rings with haste

[hollow spear]

Can I add items in top gear and pretend they're from the vault?

[short radish]

yeah

[hollow spear]

Do you have the line/input for that?

[short radish]

up here

what are you inputting?

here are the boe rings if you want them

[hollow spear]

I want to add prism and forge and act like they are from the vault. Right now it chooses both of course, but I don't want that to happen

Kind of an either or

[short radish]

hm

that i dont know

gl

[plush roost]

My tech for that

Is set my gilded to 75

And do 707

[short radish]

oh yeah thats smart

[plush roost]

Prism/forge

[short radish]

good thonking

[plush roost]

And uppies

[stone slate]

use droptimizer? so u see which has more dps gain

[hollow spear]

droptimizer is way too limited imo

[plush roost]

For double on use especially

Colo try my tech it should help

[hollow spear]

I think I just have to check a character that has a vault still and copy paste the items into that block

[stone slate]

its literally the same no?

[hollow spear]

top gear and droptimizer?

no

you can do way more with top gear

[short radish]

no droptimizer is bad with 2 trinkets

[plush roost]

Combinations can make very big gains and losses that droptimizer just cant account for

[hollow spear]

you can add two items AND make other changes simultaneously

[frozen pawn]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[plush roost]

Droptimizer will tell me logic gate alpha is 130k increase but if i get another crit ring from the same droptimizer it will no longer be 130k

[stone slate]

well ofc if u wanna change anything else too ye ur right

[misty spade]

Little confused on something. What is the point of using shuriken storm between your 2 coup's? Is it just for max combo point gains in aoe or do you use it in single target as well?

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[plush roost]

Only in cds (or 6+ targets) and so you dont lose unseen blade stacks from backstab/strike

[hollow spear]

turns out I dont have an active vault on my alts, plan successfully failed

[plush roost]

Gg

[fossil forge]

yo chat am i cooked

[hollow spear]

Oh I found it

[stone slate]

what if u gonna do just 2 sims with 1 trinket each? no need for the vault thingi, dont hink u can trigger it that way anyways as "vault item"

[hollow spear]

doable, but unpractical

I found the solution tho

[stone slate]

your vault solution sounds more unpractical for me xD but yea i got what you mean

[plush roost]

Youre cooked for using stat weights (u probably have lime 15% crit and in deep mastery/versa DR)

[shadow lance]

Woops

[frigid ingot]

https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/1416208840860373062 someone with m+ sub experience could look a bit over this?

[little sierra]

yo guys does gems matter that much? for example i just put gems to fill some stats missing

[hollow spear]

They don't matter much

I put vers/mastery and did 3 other colours, focusing on mastery and that's that

[gritty kite]

Hi, do we swap waist? or is a bad sim?

[hazy breach]

Did you import it from armory instead of via the addon

Because then it defaults to charged bolts

Instead of something useful

[gritty kite]

I used the string from the addon

is actually on charged bolts

[jade oasis]

how important is restealthing for us, how bad is chain pulling for us :p

[gritty kite]

OK my bad 😄 i am griefing porbably with charged bolts..

[covert meteor]

Being out of combat for the first dance is the most important thing

If tank chainpulls weirdly, always meld/ vanish and chill for tfd

[fossil forge]

i am rocking antenna though

[jade oasis]

it’s weird bc we dont have 2 vanishes for bad tank protection like sin

[keen dome]

it doesn't matter a lot if the tank is actually pulling properly

[wispy crystal]

Most tanks in my group always end up chain pulling so it's impossible to restealth

Thank goodness I am night elf

[limpid sage]

I wonder if it would make sense to starve yourself of energy entirely and use vanish mid pull to reset tfd outside cds

[drowsy moon]

can someone take a look one of my logs

[glad wedge]

what do we use for disc?

[wispy crystal]

Do people vanish in the middle of the boss fight?

And sit in stealth to get TFD buff ?

I mean sitting 6s in stealth to get TFD seems like a good deal, over backstabbing for 6s?

[haughty mural]

Does not work in boss fights

[sullen hare]

Crit

[limpid sage]

Ye you stay in combat

What I was speaking about was in keys

[wispy crystal]

Oh okay didn't know that 😞

[graceful crown]

is there a weakaura or addon to help me learn the dance/symbols rotation a bit better to get more introduced to the timings so i don't overdance?

[sacred gull]

in m+, if we pick the rotten talent, do we want to SoD after backstab or we keep SoD before backstab ?

What's the passive that gives you back all your combo points after a finisher ? If passive procs, is the rotten talent buffing your finisher ?

[spiral valve]

Hey guys, my macro Cold Blood + sectec doesnt work anymore. Can someone help ?

[keen dome]

Shadow Techniques, buffed by Shadowcraft in the Sub tree.

[keen dome]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[spiral valve]

thank you sir

[plush roost]

I was being generous because the goal is to fill your cp bar with the ss, and sometimes u can storm on 4 target and end at 4cp which is cringe

But yeah 4 target is fine

[shadow lance]

Yes, was jking mate. It was just funny situation

[sturdy delta]

So macro CB into SecTec is valid for 2nd SecTec in SB?

[shadow lance]

Yep

You can either play with sectech bind / CB bind

Or Sectech bind and macro sectech+CB bind

[plush roost]

You think this is a game? A video game? Im mad. Im furious. You better watchout "SweetHen" because this isnt just a joke. This is 2 combo points. Im gonna put the war in world of tanks. Youre on thin ice buddy, and i left my ice fishing gear at home.

(I am OBVIOUSLY shitposting btw)

[keen dome]

warworld of tanks? worldwar of tanks? world of wartanks? war of the worlds thanks?

[shadow lance]

I love you mate, each intervention from you make me laugh as fuck

[plush roost]

Uh intervention is a druid spell buddy, i dont want your "mana"

[keen dome]

They should bring back symbiosis so we can get a taunt

[shadow lance]

It's a war spell

You dumb or?

[plush roost]

Nono thats "Getdownmrpresident", you must be confused.

Someone call AA, we need to hold an innervation.

[hollow spear]

We are not here to have fun

This ain't the arms warrior discord

[leaden plover]

How do people cope with getting neither of the raid trinkets 6 weeks in a row, nothing as drop/vault?

[slow gorge]

Jump

[plush roost]

I crashed out for 5 weeks without either but now im happi

[earnest harness]

☝️we here for business

[hidden grail]

Trinkets don't affect your transmog so i don't understand the question

[slow gorge]

You can have cool effect !!

[leaden plover]

agree

[limpid sage]

Hekili

But don’t just blindly accept its suggestions

Like if a pack is on 10% and you have cds up, don’t just send them because hekili suggests so

[earnest harness]

Mixed feeling on hekili. When analysing my logs, all lot of the cd uses , in particular the dance+ blades pairing is almost always off. Which is starnge as you always cast them in sync. Will splits seconds in between em at tops….

Perhaps it’s just me.

[graceful crown]

does it properly adjust for bosses?

[lavish acorn]

doesnt hekili just use apl

[limpid sage]

it doesn't

yes it does

which is why you can't trust it for bosses with specific timings

[drowsy veldt]

Anyone wanna help me learn sub rogue today I’m a noob

[limpid sage]

but for learning your rotation it's a great tool

[lavish acorn]

think im getting it slowly, but ngl im breaking my fingers playing this spec

[finite sequoia]

i heard outlaw is worse

[lavish acorn]

idk im coming from 45cpm hunter so

with no tight timings cds etc

[dusty totem]

Does anyone know if it is worth it to press a 3rd danse instantly if it means that u are able to fit another sec tech inside flag?

[finite sequoia]

3 dance flag is a thing i think yeah

[limpid sage]

ye

esp when 18 prism stacks

[dusty totem]

Yeah that makes sense

[limpid sage]

well technically

with tfd 2x dances will fit entire prism window

[errant pagoda]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lavish acorn]

do i need to understand unseen blade in order to perform better

im literally reading it for the 50th time and i still have no clue how it works

[limpid sage]

backstab/shadowstrike sometime stab extra, no way to know when extra stab except after sectec you get guaranteed 2x stab

[dusty totem]

It is very hard to play around it because the proc is hidden

[finite sequoia]

unseen, even

[limpid sage]

extra stab has an internal cooldown of 20 seconds, but sometimes refresh (which you can't track) when you auto attack with slice n dice up

[lavish acorn]

so the general answer is no

[dusty totem]

Yes

Just play and follow apl and u will do big dmg

[lavish acorn]

im trying to, but

idk

[hoary lotus]

You can track unseen blade

But you can't track the hidden aura

[lavish acorn]

ye ive got the stacks

[hoary lotus]

If you have a stack of unseen

It has a chance to hit twice as well

[lavish acorn]

i kinda cant catch it in the guide nor apl - is there any specific number of escalating blade to pop NON flag/sb dances to not munch the procs? or it doesnt matter enough

[wispy crystal]

I really hate playing cold blood in M+

[hoary lotus]

During dance you shuriken storm between coup/free coup and should also do it if coup is ready

[wispy crystal]

Just so energy starved all the time

[hoary lotus]

So play tea

[wispy crystal]

Yeah I see the top rogues going cold blood

So tried it myself

It's a frustrating experience for sure

[hoary lotus]

I dont think anyone is playing cb in keys

[dusty totem]

U want to proc coup in ur danse

[hoary lotus]

Maybe in small pull dungeons where you want st

[lavish acorn]

one more question - if im in dance and my storm gave me 5cp, do i do it again to get 7 or just coup with 5

i guess its related to me fucking up before?

[dusty totem]

Well if u are in blades storm generates full cp

[karmic harbor]

casual played cb in 19 eco dome

[limpid sage]

only if shuriken storm gives you 4+ cp

[karmic harbor]

and 18 priory

all his other dungs he was playing tea

[wispy crystal]

Oh damn. I was looking at murlok.io and it showed most people using cold blood

Maybe it's not accurate

[warm dome]

Hello SubBros
Outside of Shadow Dance, should I use Coup de grace with less than 6CP ?

Just to not waste procs ?

[dusty totem]

If u are going to lose the proc yes

If u have time to build more cp then no

[warm dome]

Ok ok, thanks !

[marsh path]

how much targets do I stop using Eviscerate to use black powder?

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[marsh path]

ty

[rose parrot]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[karmic harbor]

what's the dps gain by using 1 backstab in dance

[marsh path]

you gain 1 "free" stack of dance macabre

[karmic harbor]

i mean % dps gain

cause ye in a lot of logs people arent doing it

[north schooner]

it was ~0,6% in s2, dunno if that changed

[plush roost]

Its like .6%ish

[shrewd lantern]

because top logs are generally just alot of rng

[plush roost]

Depends as well when and where you are looking

Like if u have no fw up and cds coming u skip bs

[shrewd lantern]

oh fs

[plush roost]

Cause obv fw > danse stack

[shrewd lantern]

i almost forget about fw

since its just up if you play

typically

[plush roost]

Eh on fract and dimmy

[tepid trellis]

generally speaking, top logs have more to do with luck than playing 100% correct

[plush roost]

U cant have it up 100%

Also ye ^

Top sub log on fract was actual rng nirvana

[shrewd lantern]

what you mean

just 4 coup in your opener

natty

clearly skill based

[plush roost]

Just hit 5head

[shrewd lantern]

well

i waste my rng apparently

did a db, 6 coups in first dance

on rash

[plush roost]

Mfw i have a 15m opener on saladbar only to wipe cause brew got 1shot randomly

Smodge

[shrewd lantern]

yeah that's me when i get 4 coup casts on first araz add spawn

then next set the knock gets missed

[plush roost]

[shrewd lantern]

i swear wow community isnt very vocal about rng

unless its very in your face like outlaw dice

[tepid trellis]

this tier is the worst its been in quite a while

in terms classes with high dps swings with rng

[shrewd lantern]

I mean

i saw "ub can now hit twice"

ohnonono

[tepid trellis]

like assa is very rng as well

[shrewd lantern]

yeah

[tepid trellis]

but nothing is close to mm hunter

or enhance

[shrewd lantern]

hasnt enh been that way

since s1

[tepid trellis]

nah they have two builds

one thats "normal"

and then a complete gamba one

[shrewd lantern]

i havent checked whats current enh meta

totemic was generally more rng

last 2 seasons

[tepid trellis]

iirc the complete gamba one caps out at around 10mil dps

[shrewd lantern]

cuz like s1 totemic enh

if you got good sunder resets in your opener

everyone playing ele this ssn

[tepid trellis]

the enhancement build i saw early season is gone from here now

[shrewd lantern]

huh

ds assa is higher rng

than fb assa

[tepid trellis]

well they are both 3.6

[hollow spear]

I think sub's variance has tripled

[shrewd lantern]

yeah

[hollow spear]

I swear antenna is the biggest rng thing of all

[tepid trellis]

it was like 2. smth last tier

[shrewd lantern]

its probably not as bad as sepulcher variance

[strange chasm]

I mean you want a good example of variance. Look at that one sub log on fact LMAO

[shrewd lantern]

the funniest part of that to me is

[hollow spear]

I got 25% antenna one pull, 48% the next

[shrewd lantern]

he still barely beat the ele

on opener

with that god proc sequence

[alpine wraith]

that man really HIT

he got my advicce

i take all the credit

[swift tinsel]

If it’s 3min ascendance imo it should do that kind of damage

[shrewd lantern]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JQVjKPmayRkDhYcZ?fight=3&type=damage-done&start=1211712&end=1242893

idk like

the fact hes almost caught up by the ele and boomy

doing that

[tepid trellis]

fwiw i still think its sussy af how hard those coup hits are

[strange chasm]

Yeah like they hit criminally hard

[alpine wraith]

the man knows something

maybe the DN bug is back?

[tepid trellis]

havent been able to find anything tho, so guess we just tie it down to extremely lucky

[tepid trellis]

well that bug made DS do more dmg

no trickster

[alpine wraith]

who knows with blizz but yea also i got nothin

[shrewd lantern]

is it not just araz

and mastery proc

on opener

[alpine wraith]

other coups too

[tepid trellis]

it just in general his coup hits

are insanely high

[cursive mason]

mine might hit that with 18 NP stacks

[strange chasm]

Maybe fract doesn't reset stacks at start of fight?

Could've been something like that

[tepid trellis]

of prism?

it does

there is way to not make them reset for keys tho

[manic salmon]

i mean realistically

it doesnt matter much unless you're only using prism

then it kinda matters

[shrewd lantern]

18 stack prism blasts

are so fun tbh

[manic salmon]

hell yea

[alpine wraith]

i wish ICD trinks were still a thing

[shrewd lantern]

didnt they get gutted

[alpine wraith]

so much fun min maxing those

[shrewd lantern]

after skill capacitator

[swift tinsel]

They just made them all some ppm variant

[alpine wraith]

MoP also had some crazy ones not only WoD

[shrewd lantern]

like hot take

[alpine wraith]

like rune of reorigiraping

[shrewd lantern]

i dont think soulcap would have been as busted

if you werent guaranteed to proc

on your opener

[alpine wraith]

of course

[swift tinsel]

Ye that’s why icd ones were so good

[alpine wraith]

but that was the fun thing soul cap explosion into another proc then ring explodes

then explosion

[swift tinsel]

Bc you knew you got it on opener

[alpine wraith]

that one was the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[shrewd lantern]

yeah then you wipe

because

one week i forgot to tricks tank

before my soulcap went off

[latent finch]

how would you do that? Just going out and back in while key starts or something like that?

[tepid trellis]

key gets put in, you walk out, then walk back in when the wall goes down

then u keep the 18 stacks

[bronze dagger]

Just for sure, when more than 4 target just press on Black Powder and -3 evi?

[tepid trellis]

yes

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[bronze dagger]

And coup de grace can we do 2 time in a row with a proc off 7 cp free ?

[vale pine]

yes

if you get a refund

you just coup-coup

[bronze dagger]

Good thx !

!single

Dont have this command lol

[crude zodiac]

is my flagellation suppose to have this small of uptime at the end of a key? Am i doing something wrong here?

[vale pine]

no, because you just follow guides ^^

[frigid ingot]

if any experience m+ sub rogue has tiem to look over this 😄

[tepid trellis]

flag has 2 different components the dmg part which is 12 seconds on your target, then a 12 second buff on you afterwards, so you are probably just seeing the one on the target but also

its only a 24sec buff thats up every 90sec

[shrewd lantern]

is the entrance not closed

[tepid trellis]

no

atleast not in all dungeons

ive done it so far in Ara kara and HoA

[edgy zenith]

it's a gain to press shuriken outside of blades during dance to not consume disorienting strikes, right? like using shuriken with a lot of sht?

I've been doing it, but not sure if it's actually good

[tepid trellis]

you only storm during dance between coups during blades or on 4 or more targets

if not

then dont press it

[edgy zenith]

really? so the shadow strike dam is better than the extra unseen proc?

kinda surprising

[hollow spear]

Shadowstrike does a lot of damage

[lucid jackal]

It also procs UB

Shadowstrike is very good

[edgy zenith]

and not only between coups, right? it's to not consume disorienting, so after sectech, no?

[tepid trellis]

between the coups

[hollow spear]

Only between coup

[edgy zenith]

why only betweenZ?

[tepid trellis]

only time you would ever press storm when its not between coup is if you know your 1st coup cast itself will proc shadowcraft in which case you can go
Sectech-storm-coup-coup but thats an edge case

cuz storm does fuck all for dmg

[hollow spear]

Because you're pissing away damage by storming too often

[tepid trellis]

so it isnt worth to press it more than once

like it actually does z dmg

[hollow spear]

You have 16 globals during blades, if you press storm 3-4 times, you're losing so much

[tepid trellis]

such piss dmg that you could basically press shiv in its stead

[hollow spear]

Haha damn, forgot about the unholy shiv tech

Was kinda praying for the unholy goremaw tech

[edgy zenith]

it wouldn't matter to do sectech shuriken coup shadowtrike coup, right?

instead of other way?

so you can gamble the double coup

same effect?

[tepid trellis]

one of them will proc a refund

so just look at your stacks and make the call

during blades that is

in regular dances you wont

[edgy zenith]

isn't it just always better to sectech shuriken (assuming you don't proc on sectech)

[lucid jackal]

no

[edgy zenith]

oh, bc one is sectech shuriken coup coup, the other is sectech shadowtrike coup coup

duh

yeah, you just gotta read the room I guess

if you have high sht, you can shuriken second

[sinful marten]

did the belt get nerfed yet

[lucid jackal]

.5

[edgy zenith]

alright so even if it's worse to do, I think I'm not munching disorienting on forgeweaver

so important to have coup for every add set

and praying on 2set procs is dumb

[chrome palm]

on dimensius if we do flag -> dance/symbols/sectech, do we try to backstab before hitting blades to consume premedition?

assuming you can backstab before the clones strike

[lucid jackal]

what

[chrome palm]

on pull you never tried that?

[lucid jackal]

Idk what ur asking

[tepid trellis]

how are you

pressing sectech

if you have 0 cp?

[chrome palm]

strike -> flag -> dance/symbols/sectech

[lucid jackal]

thats the wrong opener

[tepid trellis]

so you would just flag-dance-stab-sectech

[lucid jackal]

So you wouldnt do that

[plush roost]

Strike flag rupture?

Dance backstab

[tepid trellis]

its on pull on dimensius to pad on the adds

[chrome palm]

yeah

[plush roost]

Ah

[chrome palm]

you hold on dimmy either way

[plush roost]

Dont pad kill boss 5head

[tepid trellis]

i just do flag-dance+stab-sectech

[chrome palm]

i kinda thought secret technique wasnt too bad either because i always got both secret techniques in the first dance

as first global in flag***

[lucid jackal]

Ur playing TFD on dimensius?

[chrome palm]

what else do you play

[tepid trellis]

i am yes

not gonna play WM

[chrome palm]

most kills on wcl are not wm

[lilac stag]

guy musta missed the 15 cps in 10 mins note

[plush roost]

I played tfd for our p1 prog

[lucid jackal]

playing TFD on dimmy is hard trolling

U said urself u hold damage anyway

[tepid trellis]

lmfao

no its not

[lucid jackal]

Why pick a talent that only enhances the opener

[tepid trellis]

you forget

that WM doesent do anything

[lilac stag]

he did not get the memo

[lucid jackal]

What does more in p3, Wm or tfd

[plush roost]

You. The tfd vs dance debating.

Me. The creepjng shadows enjoyer. We are not the same.

[tepid trellis]

p3 aint a dmg check anymore

[lucid jackal]

So u hold damage in p1 right

So u play a talent that only is active in p1

Why

[plush roost]

Okay guy but have you considered my dopamine spike when playing tfd?

Clearly the debate is settled

[tepid trellis]

just go tfd and carry more cdr going into p2 platforms

instead of playing a talent that gave you 15 cp over an entire 10min fight

[lucid jackal]

You can walk into platform in p2 with 2 dances 3 symbols without playing tfd idgi

[tepid trellis]

you can also just not press anything in p1

at all

just afk

[lucid jackal]

Ok

[tepid trellis]

why go wm when its only active in p3, doesent do anything in p2 it doesent cleave, and you stop dmg on the big guys anyway

and p2 is gonna be where you are stuck the most anyway now

[lucid jackal]

Because tfd does nothing other than the phase u hold damage on

[tepid trellis]

it will still generate more resources to carry into p2

[lucid jackal]

I played Wm all of prog, I always had my Cd's setup for platform 1 tho

[tepid trellis]

cuz you arent gonna be sitting on dance for 1min straight

unless you are clinically insane

[lilac stag]

estimates on how long debate goes over 2 seemingly useless talents on the fight

[lucid jackal]

Maybe our guild just does infinite more damage cuz by the time we stopped damage would be the last dance before Cd's

And then I just hold, have max cp, and build sht stacks

To me it'd be like taking tfd on mugzee when Ur doing hard hold dps strats

Just don't make sense

[warm marlin]

I just looked at the top public log using WM. He procced the extra hit of shadowstrike twice in p3 and neither time did he end up receiving extra combo points from it. it did a total of 1.3M damage

[lucid jackal]

VS 0dps of tfd

[tepid trellis]

2 procs

[fallow nimbus]

If vanish could trigger tfd

[tepid trellis]

less than a evis crit def

[warm marlin]

i get your point but wm is just so bad that i think that tfd is fine to have slightly more boss dmg p1 so that you still easily meet the check if someone dies or lets someone do a bit more add damage while easily meeting the check

[tepid trellis]

prog

[warm marlin]

idk

it added 0.1% dmg to that guy in p3

its so meaningless

[limpid sage]

Why do people go wm on araz btw

[lilac stag]

i wonder what a high roll for WM looks like

[tepid trellis]

cuz they are stupid

they think the talent is wasted cuz you dance pull

not realizing that WM doesent do anything

it just hits the boss a few more times with shadowstrike

that doesent cleave

[limpid sage]

How many cp does it generate a min approx?

[lilac stag]

there's no way blizzard would make a talent useless and leave it like that

[limpid sage]

Also does unseen blade proc off wm procs?

[tepid trellis]

depends on when it procs

it can be completely wasted

[tepid trellis]

no

[warm marlin]

i mean with the bug its not really going to provide many cps at all during cds and it certainly won't give you enough outside cds to get an extra dance off or something

you have plenty cdr for your breakpoints regardless

[sturdy moat]

Do yall run double finality or DD and 1 finality for m+?

[vale pine]

whatever you prefere

[shadow lance]

DSlice got a lot of ST?

Cuz Finality/ Tea sim low

Something like 2% less compared to rotten / CB

Or maybe just my crit is too low

[plush roost]

Idk playing 2x finality with pv feels bad cause no inev

I like my sod uptime

[rustic mortar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[late oxide]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[wispy crystal]

Is wowhead talent build, the preferred one for M+?

[random comet]

Yes but there’s a small variation some prefer as well

[lilac stag]

The non-tornado build. Can swap out CB for Tea

[wispy crystal]

Do we run rotten or nah? For M+

[clever delta]

the no inev in keys is bait

[rocky ocean]

They should make vanish give tfd buff

[tepid canyon]

only sub doesn't get any offensive benefits from vanish, no?

[mossy nimbus]

Coming from sin to sub is making my head spin. Am i crazy or is this spec just wildly complicated

[karmic harbor]

they should make tfd give you the buff as soon as combat ends

[karmic harbor]

learn ur opener, learn the dance order gg

[round osprey]

Stupid question maybe but I'm very new at Sub, just started practicing it today, when we're not in burst, do we just fill rotation with shuriken storm/black powder etc and backstab/evisc when low targets?

[karmic harbor]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[karmic harbor]

and rupture

[round osprey]

thank you!!

I wasn't sure if it was supposed to feel mega slow outside of burst haha, too used to assa

[mossy nimbus]

Fair, i guess whats catching me offguard is how low the dps is after that burst window ends, ill skyrocket to the top beyond everyone else when im in my burst window, but as soon as im in that cooldown phase i just drop off to the bottom

[lofty meadow]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[shadow lance]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[mossy nimbus]

fair, i guess that helps with the lows

[lunar bluff]

i see so many sub builds going around, rotten, finality, no IV, wtf are u guys cooking over here

[fossil frost]

Alright, anyone around to take a look at logs and help me figure out wtf I'm doing wrong? I feel like I understand the spec well, but about halfway through boss fights my damage goes out the window

[lunar bluff]

why is the rotten good in m+? i dont understand its appeal

[limpid sage]

Find Weakness spread

[lunar bluff]

do shadowstrike crits with flurry spread

[limpid sage]

No but you’d spread with shuriken storm before popping dance+blades

[ornate lake]

Guys do you consume your dance charges back to back outside CDs or wait for sometime before popping the second charge?

[lunar bluff]

how does storm + rotten work together

[limpid sage]

Makes it guaranteed crit = everyone gets FW up

[lunar bluff]

are you using storm in dance?

[lilac stag]

Depends on your def of it. In keys you can use it to drop combat at end of a pack and get TFD timer started when tanks are chain pulling.

[limpid sage]

The reason there are many builds going around is because they’re all very close to eachother

[limpid sage]

Ya between coups

[lilac stag]

At current gear levels it’s not worth it. Drop rotten. Take finality.

[lunar bluff]

oh wait im being dumb

[mossy nimbus]

Are people taking the rotten in m+? Everything ive seen this season excludes it

[lunar bluff]

i thought we were talking about tornado

[lilac stag]

no rotten. No tornado

Bad

[lunar bluff]

yeah im confused by rotten

[limpid sage]

Rotten is good

[lilac stag]

don’t take it

No it’s not

[lunar bluff]

why would u have the rotten up for storms

[lilac stag]

It unnecessary at current gear

[limpid sage]

Heavily gear dependant ye

[queen plinth]

if im checking logs and im doing kinda the dmg other rogues do on the same key same keylvl i should be fine right?

[limpid sage]

I’m sitting at 21% crit

[mossy nimbus]

yeah you shouldnt be taken the rotten or tornado

[lilac stag]

Literally can storm before cds and have FW on majority of it.

[lunar bluff]

are u just taking finality over

uh

rotten

[lilac stag]

yes

[lunar bluff]

i just dont see where u are consuming rotten with storm

[lilac stag]

you’re not

[lunar bluff]

ye

[lilac stag]

You strike in dance

[lunar bluff]

it feels like you are just double couping cuz resets or striking in dance

[lilac stag]

Storm is Dance is only for coup in blades cd

[limpid sage]

Ok but 100% FW on everything going into cds is kinda balling

[lilac stag]

No it’s not worth the trade off

See tc research

[limpid sage]

I have and have experimented with it as well

It’s not as bad as it’s made out to be

[lunar bluff]

i just wanna ruun thisi think

[fallow nimbus]

Storm and spread rupture then go in cds and you have enough fws up

[lunar bluff]

that makes sense in my head

[mossy nimbus]

you should have master poisoner

[lilac stag]

you ll have FW up on -everything as tank pulls with 2 storms and ruptures

But waste a dance global that s fine of it makes you happy

[lunar bluff]

are you liking cb or tea more

i like tea more

i actually feel afk with cb

[lilac stag]

Tea is more enjoyable for most

[limpid sage]

You don’t do it in dance though

You do it pre dance

[lilac stag]

and when you’re in dance and sod isn’t up

[lunar bluff]

if strike applied weakness with flurry in aoe taht would make rotten make sense to me

[cinder axle]

I like cold blood more

feels nice to have this one big sec tech in the burst window

[lunar bluff]

if you take cold blood do you have to take improved shadow teq

for vibes

[tepid canyon]

Doesn't healers heals put combat on us?

If he's in combat

[lilac stag]

Healer is too busy chasing the tank

You dip and hang in back

[limpid warren]

I'm trying to understand something and I'm not sure if my logic is correct.
So we shuriken storm in between coups during shadow blades because if we shadowstrike, we lose a stack of unseen blade because the tier coup proc overwrites the ability to gain it. This makes sense to me.
However, if we get a refund with shadowcraft on the first coup of a flag/shadowblades dance, do we press still storm there? Our last cast is coup, but we don't need to gain any CP to coup again, so do we just send coup again? If not, and we still press storm, why?

[upper narwhal]

only storm if you need to build, otherwise coup-coup

[limpid warren]

Right, that's what I thought

just wanted confirmation I wasn't just griefing

[cinder axle]

btw do you guys trac ur unseen blades somehow?

[shadow lance]

Nope for cd, yes for stacks

[cinder axle]

i track how much stacs i have but not when its likely that my next backstab will trigger a blade

[lofty meadow]

you cant track when its likely to trigger only if its guaranteed to trigger

[cinder axle]

ok then i just dont bother with that

[shadow lance]

It's a bs every 20 sec

[wet echo]

unless your autoattacks reset it

which i'm not sure can be tracked

[shadow lance]

Yep

It can't

You just keep in mind you got 2 UB proc sure after sectech

And not caring a lot outside dance

[acoustic matrix]

Any pointers as to what I could do better on that fight ? Cause I can't seem to get higher than the 80s
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wykYZA91ChBrKvg2?fight=30&type=casts&source=2752&view=timeline

[hollow spear]

For saldahaar it's usually padding on the platform

Save flag, stack prism and go hard on the titan + adds

[shadow lance]

It's hc, don't try to parse

[hollow spear]

Wdym, hc is the place to parse for most players

[shadow lance]

Because you'll never reach parses run results

Because I assume you pug the boss

And because this fight get the timing fucked by timer / overall dps

But if you wanna pad the adds, you can, Indeed, only use 1 sb in p1 and send the thunder on adds

I prefer hold for damages amp

[neon wagon]

!sim

dungeon slice viable for sub? or 5t 5min

[shadow lance]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shadow lance]

And yes

5 target, 5 minutes wtf

[neon wagon]

ah tyvm!

[neon wagon]

^mage brain

[shadow lance]

Because you do a lot of 5 targets during 5 minutes in m+ ?

If you told 5 target 1m, I would understand

[limpid sage]

Prob similar to perma chainpull

Except that’d be a larger amount

[shadow lance]

I'm not sure cuz you got a lot of target variance

Especially on boss

And even when you chainpulling

[obsidian crag]

for how long should i hold sec tech while waiting for flag/shadow blades to come off cd?

[acoustic matrix]

I already do all of that

[shadow lance]

Don't send out of sod/dance

[limpid sage]

You can send it naked if above 30 sec till flag and 100% uptime

[shadow lance]

Minimal gain for maximal lose if you don't get it back for sb

[obsidian crag]

100% uptime of what?

[shadow lance]

In fight

So you get cdr fighting

[limpid sage]

Uptime hitting the boss

[obsidian crag]

ah, so cdr will do its job

[shadow lance]

30 sec looks tight

[acoustic matrix]

!log

[limpid sage]

Works for me

[shadow lance]

If you speaking about ST

[limpid sage]

I’ve done it at 26 even

[haughty rose]

i have a 94 with champ netherprism

i send only one flag+blades during p1 then hold them. i send 2 CB sec tec before platforms both when ready. when dragon spawn you dance once where you also CB sec tec. on platform you full send everything including high stack prism + pot and murder the adds. cd's will be back on damage amp

[shadow lance]

How you sectech, and get back at 10 sec cd on it 10 sec before SB in 16 sec?

[limpid sage]

26 leaves a 28 sec gap between flag and sectec, meaning you need ~20 sec of cdr on sectec for it to be up

With the double coups it’s way easier now than before

But obv you can’t do the hold coup strat if you still have cdr maintenance to do, so I don’t know if it’s worth it

[shadow lance]

Yes, I'm sure it's not

The gains ending naked sectech is minimal

Cuz you can't hold sht stacks

Neither double coup before cd

[fickle hornet]

Hello guys my friend has too much ego so he wont never come to ask this, i think he is doing missplays on his rotation bcs he has a 90, and normally u have around 96-99 if u do it perfectly(thats what he says) could u point me some mistakes he made in this fight pls

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XjvJWBhLmdakqRKN?fight=74&type=damage-done

[shadow lance]

You speaking about ST and link a Soul Hunter log

Funny

[limpid sage]

I wonder what the breakpoint is though

[fickle hornet]

sorry,

now i corrected

[limpid sage]

Like on loomithar I’ve found myself able to send the naked sectec at 45

Then it’s 100% worth it

[shadow lance]

Sure, 45 seems really doable

Cuz it let you 35 sec to have to full cdr

[limpid sage]

35 sec to get 10 sec worth of cdr

Actually you don’t have to farm any cdr if you send at 45

[shadow lance]

Sectech is 1m cd

[limpid sage]

54 sec

[shadow lance]

So yes, 35 sec to get 10 sec of cdr

Easy

[shadow lance]

Hmmm no?

[fickle hornet]

he plays assa on st

so i choosed sub for the aoes

[shadow lance]

Oh, okay, lemme check

[limpid sage]

I think 30 sec is the last point where you’re guaranteed being able to do the sht stack farm + have double coup for next burst

[shadow lance]

!log

[limpid sage]

Is ShT farm worth doing on AOE as well btw?

I haven’t bothered doing it on 4+ targets because my intuition tells me the cp gain from shuriken storms outweighs the ShT cheese

[wheat sentinel]

Why am I seeing a lot of builds skip deep daggers? Isn't that a lot of damage to lose?

[shadow lance]

Damages cp outside cd isn't big

[clever delta]

i started working on 14 resil and im getting glazed in every key 😄

[shadow lance]

I pref having reset in finisher during cd's

[clever delta]

like if they never met rogue with hands before

[shadow lance]

Bro, you're not playing with the brightest gamers in 14 now

[clever delta]

i know

im not even that good 😄

[shadow lance]

So, I can guess they didn't meet a lot of sub that know rotation

[sullen oriole]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[gusty iron]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[robust dust]

when playing with rotten in m+ build, is it worth to use shuriken storm instead of backstab (in first dance) in flag/shadowblade window to spread FW on every mob?

[limpid sage]

No you just send between coups

It’s worth using Symbols+Storm->Dance+sectec though

As you waste 0 globals inside dance while spreading FW on everything

[robust dust]

symbols+storm > dance > sectec > backstab > finisher > shadowstrike? or do i just use shadowstrike instead of backstab (for dance macabre stack)

[limpid sage]

Backstab is good

[azure thicket]

tank didn't pull adds into 2nd gamba boss adn pinged me

there's not a lot of legit burst melee dps specs i guess

immediately sent 7m but like...

[rigid delta]

For our 2nd coup does it matter too much how many combo points it gets sent with?

[queen plinth]

do we shuriken storm and rupture or do we flag and then start rupturing everything and if second does it matter if we hit the flag target?

[heady kestrel]

hey all, trying to learn sub. am i able to macro together shadow dance and symbols or is it better to keep them separate? My setup right now is I have 1 button for just symbols, and another that uses thistle tea, shadow dance, symbols, and backstab. I'm just trying to streamline things

[iron imp]

You'll want to keep them seperate if at all possible. They dont line up perfectly

[shut burrow]

Is there actually an optimal spot in the damage window to make use of the rotten? Like what is the optimal way to use that talent

[south sedge]

if you go into an non sb dance window in aoe with coup ready, should you send sectec first > sstorm > coup > sstorm > coup instead of strikes accoding to the normal sstorm target counts?

[fossil frost]

I think it’s SS > Sectec > SS > coup > Storm > coup

The coup/unseen blade issue is just between regular coup and tier set coup

[limpid sage]

You don’t wanna send 2 storms, but you can storm before coup yes

Has the potential benefit of refunding cp before having to waste a UB proc on a builder

[iron ridge]

Does playing with forge change when we wanna use CB? Like due to the decay of the stats

Or higher flag > more trinket stats

[queen plinth]

do i storm- rupture everything before i go into flag and my cds or do i start with flag and start rupturing everything before the pull is gathered?

[south sedge]

I think I misunderstand the issue then. I thought it was about building stacks towards the next coup?

[queen plinth]

i assume i start flag when pull is almost gathered and then start rupturing and go into my burst for the mastery stacked?

[lucid jackal]

Nop

[iron ridge]

No meaning its better to use on first? Or wrong reply meaning no it doesn't change anything

[left ledge]

It doesn’t change

You use on second

[lucid jackal]

It doesn't change

[iron ridge]

Aight nice. Thank you

[earnest harness]

Is there ever a situation where you wouldn’t (or flat-out couldn’t) cast SoD with Dance? Assuming you haven’t capped on charges, is there any reason they wouldn’t normally line up together?

The reason I ask is because I know it’s usually considered a huge mistake to macro abilities together(outside of the thistle tea macro).

But if you’re disciplined with your SoD charges, wouldn’t a simple SoD + Dance macro actually be just fine?

Only time they don’t perfectly align with me so far is outside flag and blades window, where SoD-backstab-dance is required. But I might be completely wrong here….

[mint violet]

Look at opener, after first dance you cast second dance immediately and sod waits for sectec

[dense mountain]

if you have first dance you can get 2 sectec off in the first dance, and you would want to use a SoD with that sectec

[dusty pagoda]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dense mountain]

if your super new you can macro, but imo just get used to not macro and you will thank yourself later

[mint violet]

Also sod-backstab- dance?

[earnest harness]

Well that confirms it, I’m off there 😬

[shrewd lantern]

You want to supercharge sectech

so

[supple verge]

Guys I got a no hit going

I'm deathless through 6 keys

Keep me in I'm pitching the full 9

[shrewd lantern]

do hm taz

idr if hm added new mechanics

to the base dungeon

[supple verge]

I'm gonna assemble the crew and go for it

[steel jolt]

yes there are new mechanics

you should probably watch a video or something to learn about them before trying it

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah i did it years back

[steel jolt]

you did HM tazavesh years ago?

[fallow nimbus]

It's from shadowlands

That was years ago

[steel jolt]

hmm i do not remember that but i guess that was a long time ago

[supple verge]

2020 was last year

[steel jolt]

bro is spec'd into trickster trying to gaslight me

[shrewd lantern]

yeah

the gear wasnt as op back then

[lavish acorn]

whats an avg sim of 715-716 sub rn

[earnest harness]

The nuances and intricate details of this spec are diabolical. One needs PhD for this shit. Splitting an atom is easier!

[shrewd lantern]

Probably like 5m

i would assume

[fallow nimbus]

5mio and more

[shrewd lantern]

i sim 4.9 at 712

so i assume at least 5

[rigid remnant]

hey, getting into sub. why we use shuriken storm between coup de gracefrom 4p?

[lavish acorn]

is there even a possibility im simming low for my ilvl

im 713 and im barely 4,8

no gains from dungeons

[fallow nimbus]

I sim like 4.99 with 714

[worthy lark]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lavish acorn]

could you link sim so i can peek

[shrewd lantern]

generally what slots you have high ilvl

matter

[lavish acorn]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9DbRhYgQth1iwEokMZbpmF

dont think its unusal

[fallow nimbus]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4mptHesKZvcRYzrKXGrrgm

[shrewd lantern]

like chest/legs/helm/trinkets are good slots

[lavish acorn]

im missing a weapon

well boots, prism and wep put me at 5m but that would also be like 716

[shrewd lantern]

no shot disc belt is worse

than 3 ilvls on boots

[lavish acorn]

fuck

i forgot to do it

[fallow nimbus]

I miss mythic forge and then it's just upgrading everything

[lavish acorn]

how do you even unlock that belt at this point

gotta look and do it

[steel jolt]

just delves

[worthy lark]

hi i am new to sub rogue i keep seeing some people go cold blood over thistle tea in M+ builds. could explain to me the difference? is it that cold blood is for more single target focus compared to thistle tea?

[shadow lance]

Wtf, I'm simming so low https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eyrvcyS5XYwW4wy6oYx7co

[shadow lance]

Correct + personnal pref

[worthy lark]

hmm ok. also is it worth spreading rupture to all targets before using full burst in m+?

[shadow lance]

No

[shrewd lantern]

bad mog

[steel jolt]

yeah bad mog is at least -1k dps

[shadow lance]

You spread rupture when you don't have burst to send

I play Dwarf, I can't have cool mog so I put random set

[worthy lark]

ahhhh ok and i guess after burst i mostly just press shurikan storm and black powder with 4+ targets

[shrewd lantern]

Idk i used ashvane coat

as fem dwarf with monocle

[shadow lance]

Or Rupture if targets gonna live 12+ sec

[shrewd lantern]

bracers 720 is a complete waste of crests

[worthy lark]

ok thanks 🙂 really appriciate it

[shrewd lantern]

this early

[shadow lance]

You're welcome

[shadow lance]

You prolly right

Not a "waste" but I could get more ilvl/ crest spending else where

But all my MM gear is upgraded

Not the ring but ring ilvl doesn't matter a lot

So... It was the best slot I could get I think

[lavish acorn]

id just save at that point

for me 720 craft bracer is sidegrade to 704 with socket

[last gate]

are we EVER USE BP in raid?

[shrewd lantern]

i wont send gilded on hero gear

fuck that

[shadow lance]

I did for Prism

But yes, I should have saved maybe

[shadow lance]

On trashes

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i did then got mythic

2 weeks later

so kinda wasted some

[last gate]

lol

so never

[shrewd lantern]

you can bp on araz

[steel jolt]

there is trash in raid

[shadow lance]

I would not BP on Araz

[shadow lance]

I don't think I'll get to Fractillus that fast

[shrewd lantern]

its literally fine to bp sometimes

[shadow lance]

Casual gaming doesn't rime with early MM bosses

[shrewd lantern]

4t

[last gate]

one more thing
why nobody cares about find weakness?

[shadow lance]

Cuz we naturally apply it easily

[last gate]

like in pack nobody use one of the rotten procs for weakness

[shadow lance]

I check yesterday, 5 BP in the 5 tops logs

On 5 complete fights

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah because in reality

[shadow lance]

0 in the first 3

[shrewd lantern]

any finisher tuat isnt sectech or coup

on adds

is borderline nothing

[shadow lance]

Yes, that's why just press Evis

Adds will die anyway

[shrewd lantern]

overwhelming majority of your damage is sec or coup

[shadow lance]

Better hit boss harder

[shrewd lantern]

whatever you press otherwise doesnt matter outside burn

[shadow lance]

Cuz use Storm in dance is bad

Unless between 2 coup

[shrewd lantern]

storm doesnt do damage

strike flurried does alot

[last gate]

but literaly every finisher deals 30% more + 30% armor reduction

[shrewd lantern]

thats really it

you should have fw up already anyway

from storm into rupture spread

on the gather

[last gate]

its only possible to be applied on 1

[shadow lance]

Rotten buff builder, not finisher

[last gate]

i mean on opener

like

on my first symbol

one rotten into BP

[shrewd lantern]

you just crit storm

[last gate]

next into shuriken

[shrewd lantern]

on the gather ruptures

you know any target crit by shuriken gets fw right

[shadow lance]

Yes, you need to storm and spread rupture while pull is gathered

[last gate]

we spread first then we go in cd?

LIKE HOLDING CD

[shadow lance]

No

[shrewd lantern]

while your tank gathers

[last gate]

LIKE PLAYING BLEED BUILD ASSASINATION?

[shrewd lantern]

you arent sending on the gather

[shadow lance]

Just spread until pack is gathered so you'll do more damages

[last gate]

what will happen in tight packs then?

[shadow lance]

But stop spread if pull is packed and send cd's

[last gate]

like 2nd pull STW

[shadow lance]

STW, streets?

[last gate]

liek this pack
its already gathered cause its tight

so no time to spread rupture

when do we spread FW?

[shadow lance]

You can send 2 storm in it

[shrewd lantern]

you have 2-3 seconds

before they group

[shadow lance]

And the 3rd pack is a patrol so not always next to others groups

But if you want, you can storm a rotten stack, but sim tend to say it's not a dps gain

[last gate]

the point is im seeing the dps gain in my details 😭

[shadow lance]

So press it

You're free to play like you want

[lilac stag]

People out here making things way more complicated than it needs to be

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk

i have fw up during gather

[lilac stag]

Storm on the gather. It’s that simple. Storm has a high crit chance on its own. Unless your gear is shit or you’re some goof stacking mastery to 135% and ignoring crit, rotten is pointless.

[last gate]

YES

[shrewd lantern]

What the helly

i think i only go over 100 if my flask is on mastery

or maghar gives

[shadow lance]

I won't make fun of that, since I changed my ring, I'm over 100

[shadow lance]

I need to change a ring by a crit vers*

[last gate]

MY PROBLEM IS

THIS ANIMAL RAID BOTS WANTS ME TO BUILD UP MORE MASTERY VERSA

i sim 10 times for a crit mastery ring / neck

[shadow lance]

Remove Rotten and CB

It will ask you more crit

[shrewd lantern]

cb based

[last gate]

cb?

[shadow lance]

Cold Blood

[last gate]

ah

im playing

TEA

i still cant focus

on using it on my 2nd sec tec

so i decided to skip it entierly

[shadow lance]

How do you do in raid?

[last gate]

...

lets not talk about it

[shadow lance]

Alright ^^

[last gate]

..

disgusting

isn't it?

💔

[shrewd lantern]

i play kind of like how it is in raid

and watch people go wtf when you burst 17-18 on a boss

[shadow lance]

You know, you can bind a macro'd one and a single sectech?

[last gate]

my brain wont work like this

[shadow lance]

2 diff button

[last gate]

if its R

its R

[shadow lance]

Press R for sectech, shift + R for CB+Sectech

[last gate]

Shift + R is stealth

😄

my key binding sucks

[shadow lance]

Cursed by no shaming

[last gate]

💔

[shadow lance]

I use alt + ²

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i have a regular sec bind

and a cb one

[last gate]

i unbind my alt key

cause once i tried to do alt + 4

and instead i did an alt F4

in a fking pull

😭

[velvet hawk]

do you guys have a rupture macro for mouseover etc

[shadow lance]

[last gate]

no but you can have it

[shadow lance]

#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover, harm, nodead] [] Rupture

[last gate]

just press tab youre not playing death stalker

[shadow lance]

Gonna cast at mouseover and if no mouseover, curent target

[shrewd lantern]

those are far

huh

[honest basin]

Same. Regular sectech on 4, cb one on shift 4

[shrewd lantern]

Oh

my cb one is shift 2

[shadow lance]

I got a bind for CB but same shit

[last gate]

I DID IT

ITS EASIER NOW

[shadow lance]

ggz

[last gate]

BUT DPS STILL SUCKS 😄

Question
why raidbots used all of my symbols like shit?

[hazy breach]

Did you sim like 20s

[last gate]

😭

[lilac stag]

30 sec 5 target lust

[last gate]

i just wanna know how much should i burst

[lilac stag]

[shadow lance]

1 min mate