subtlety

[short radish]

yeah

[tribal blade]

the no raid buff is a big one too

nobody cares about atrophic

[short radish]

i still can't get over how atro stacks

and still no one cares about it

[tribal blade]

i legit have never ever seen someone take a rogue because they want atrophic

[short radish]

they take one

ish

usually

[tribal blade]

nah they'd rather have a druid lol

vers buff more value

[short radish]

well they always take the druid

wait holy shit yeah

druid brings both DR and Atk

i hate druids.

[tribal blade]

YUP

[mint violet]

I as brewmaster took rogue for extra tankiness last season

[tribal blade]

dmg and defensive combo

it's actually so annoying

[tribal blade]

yeah brew pairs well with rogue

[mint violet]

And also a feral ofc

[tribal blade]

but you start running into the cc issue

because rogue has very little control

and brew has very little control too

brew is one of the tanks with the least they can do to help their group, it's why yoda doesn't like playing it

[mint violet]

Would not say very little

[tribal blade]

he prefers playing tanks that can do a lot for the group

[mint violet]

Oh really

[tribal blade]

yeah

[gaunt bluff]

why is he not on prot pala?

too squishy?

[tribal blade]

like you compare what prot pal can do for the group vs brew

it's not even close

[mint violet]

Have not played much else for tanking

[tribal blade]

not even in the same universe

[iron plover]

This is so sad LMAO

[tribal blade]

he is playing prot pal atm

[gaunt bluff]

ah i thought he was warrioring

man prot pala feels great to play with this season

until one pack

where they just fall down

and key is over

[tribal blade]

prot pal brings insane kicks, bop, freedom, spellwarding, sac, wogs

[gaunt bluff]

idk

[tribal blade]

brew can rop

that's about it

[short radish]

leg sweep

[mint violet]

Can prot pal give you Phys dmg buff?

Did not think so

[tribal blade]

maybe tiger's lust?

[short radish]

and also taunt mobs to walk faster

[tribal blade]

nah they cannot

[mint violet]

Brew can paralyze too

[gaunt bluff]

this shit is so funny man i only learnt about it 2 days ago

[short radish]

im pretty sure it works on the 3rd boss add spawn in HoA

[mint violet]

Wdym, it's super helpful

[gaunt bluff]

i mean its just so weird he has this one gimmick

[tribal blade]

i think you really can't compared utility between prot pal and brew

it's like the difference between boomy and rogue

[mint violet]

Brew has aoe taunt and misery type shit too

[short radish]

okay its not that bad

its more like

boomy and warrior

[tribal blade]

HAHA

fair enough 😉

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

but yeah it's very noticable when you run with a lot of vdh/prot pal/ prot warr

then go in a key with a brew

[mint violet]

Vivify, hello

[tribal blade]

suddenly you need to do way more to help

the tradeoff is brew has really crazy dmg

[short radish]

true, the brewmastery vivify spam was really known for doing the 4dps 1 tank runs back in shadowlands

wait no that wasnt it

[mint violet]

))))

[gaunt bluff]

ngl the damage diff between war pala and monk is more irrelevant than the utilities

they all pump aoe

war pumps more boss monk aoe burst ig

[tribal blade]

if brew was more tanky it would maybe be the meta tank

[mint violet]

At least monk does damage this season and does not die that easily

[dusk stone]

the kiting from brew tanks is rly annoying

[tribal blade]

yeah brews are made of paper

they have to do smaller pulls too

[desert horizon]

quick question i swapped to double on use trinkets today adn not sure how to line em up i know i wanna use ritual forge with blades but when do i fit in netherprism anyone know?

[mint violet]

They were, this season is all good

I don't even run defensive trinket

[dusk stone]

is this at a specific key level? i'm in 15's and brews still doing pretty big pulls

[gaunt bluff]

i was gonna say brews always do the same pulls every other tank does

[tribal blade]

yeah this is specifically a rank 1 thing from what i heard

[dusk stone]

like i see bigger pulls from brew frequently than warr or paladins

[tribal blade]

honestly dunno because i'm not in those keys, but it's what i've heard

[swift tinsel]

I could see it bc of the way stagger and purify work

[tribal blade]

but monksea is doing really well atm

so brew isn't bad

[gaunt bluff]

don't think tanks other than ppala and blood have any problems with tanking pulls

[dusk stone]

yeah stagger still has that weird scaling issue with white damage right

[swift tinsel]

well if incoming damage is enough to consistently fill your stagger bar, you're limited to how much you can purify over X amount of time

[mint violet]

Ye, many mobs are bad

[swift tinsel]

which I imagine is what you experience at the top end

[tribal blade]

both yoda and kira have talked about brew needing to do smaller pulls

this season

[dusk stone]

rip i guess

[mint violet]

But I think new celestial infusion helps a bit

[swift tinsel]

ye

[tribal blade]

which is why they pair so well with stuff like fury warr and outlaw

[swift tinsel]

and orbs healing over time mitigates a tiny bit too

[mint violet]

When many tiny mobs just rop, stand in safety and then exploding keg

And they die without doing damage

[dusk stone]

question, if on like a 15 say dallcry is at 38% and flag just came back

im not wrong to hold it for the next pull right

[swift tinsel]

idk pally pull can be aids

[dusk stone]

i feel like every time i send at around that hp level i never have it for the next pull

same issue in hoa and halkias

[swift tinsel]

Id look at party cds

imo

[steady lark]

38% is a lot of hp

[swift tinsel]

ye

[mint violet]

38% seems like a lot

[swift tinsel]

if that's gonna get dragged out bc you're holding and group cds aren't gonna carry

[dusk stone]

well its not a lot of hp after you use flag thats for sure

[swift tinsel]

thats a bit of a troll

well yeah that's the point of cds

they make big hp little or gone

[dusk stone]

thing is its frequently desyncing me from next 2-3 pulls too

[swift tinsel]

how is it desynching

[dusk stone]

as in flag comes up halfway through all of them

[swift tinsel]

you use them as they're up

[dusk stone]

losing a lot of aoe

[swift tinsel]

if they will last all or most of a pack/boss

[dusk stone]

its a loss for sure i think

[short radish]

tbh

i'd send

[swift tinsel]

doesn't matter if its up at the start

[short radish]

its cringe for your overall

but better for timer

[swift tinsel]

if it gets used and gets 70-80% value at least its worth

[short radish]

38% sounds like another 1 minute to kill

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[dusk stone]

yeah that's what i've been doing but just thinking

i mean i can just send two dances

[swift tinsel]

30+ at the very least which is more than a flag window

[tribal blade]

@short radish are you dancing on tangles on loom or just full sending on boss

[short radish]

are you asking as a raid leader?

[tribal blade]

nah

[swift tinsel]

ahem we're all ethical raiders here

[tribal blade]

as someone trying to fix dogshit parses

[swift tinsel]

would certainly never park it on loom

[short radish]

the ethical answer is.

I wait for the suck in things go to out to make sure i dont get caught, and then I shadowstep behind the first ring and cleave onto both tangles

but like if im in flag im not moving lol

[dusk stone]

yeah i would never send ~~prism and bp on saladman adds ~~ unethically parse

[tribal blade]

haha gotcha

hrm what's the suck called

nvm found it

[short radish]

its like 3-4 seconds after first tangle

[flint sundial]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[tribal blade]

cool set a countdown for it in BW

[plush roost]

FREEDOM

[short radish]

holy shit

this weeks the week

we are all blessed

except guy

[swift tinsel]

Imma laugh if my monk gets prism reclear tonight lol

[languid moss]

@swift tinsel bro i was just about to ask about BP how u already anwsered me

[short radish]

[swift tinsel]

that's why I do it

[warm marlin]

we havent seen a single M prism

this is insane

[swift tinsel]

that's like us with forge, only seen one normal so far

I think maybe two people have one in guild atm

[warm depot]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[twilit oxide]

Hey people! I have a question!, this is for the burst opener rotation, do you pre-cast Symbols at pull?

[short radish]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[swift tinsel]

It's a good habit to get into for raid

by no means required but it helps

[twilit oxide]

Cool thanks!

[pure jay]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[pure jay]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[pure jay]

is the bug with cold blood only tied to macros?

[sturdy garnet]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[willow cliff]

why do we shurikan inbetween coups

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[languid moss]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[languid moss]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lucid jackal]

🖕

[short radish]

dont worry

next weeks the week for you

surely

[lucid jackal]

we didnt reclear 🖕

[short radish]

[lucid jackal]

🖕

[short radish]

well you can get heroic forge still

[lucid jackal]

I have that

[short radish]

okay i'll stop

[lucid jackal]

I need hero prism

[short radish]

oh

ecks dee

[warm depot]

🖕

whenj will the guy bullying stop!!!

[short radish]

when blizzard gives us some proper utility and a meaningful raidbuff

[tepid trellis]

never

[dusk stone]

for soulbinder how long after the start do the adds spawn, in this video it's almost 30 seconds

[tepid trellis]

cant let him have it all, mans is handsome, insane gamer and has the peak Radio voice

gotta give him shit for something

[hollow raptor]

think cold blood bug might be fixed?

[tepid trellis]

dont think that thing is high on their priority list mate

sorry

[bleak night]

that will never be fixed

genuinely never

[hollow raptor]

just swapped from FB to Sub and cb was fine

could be good

[bleak night]

i just did the same and it was not fine

[short radish]

https://www.youtube.com/@starcraft_tv

you might enjoy this guy. he just killed mythic saladbar on controller

[dusk stone]

is there any trick to soulbinder or are we just sending cds on cd

[tepid trellis]

cds on adds

[bleak night]

if adds then dance

[dusk stone]

just hold dances for adds strictly or

[rancid crow]

Dude, what an action bar. And I thought mine was tricky 😅

[short radish]

i think its atrocity UI

oh the stuff at the bottom

yeah

thats kinda wild

[dusk stone]

i thought for sure it'd be with ret but no the guy is a gamer

[tepid trellis]

not only atrocity but he basically has my edit of it (almost)

[upbeat sorrel]

does the araz+unyielding macro work well for most situations?

/cast Shadow Blades
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism

[short radish]

how does one get access to your edit

assuming they signed up for atrocity ui and what not

[tepid trellis]

by doing a tre flip on a skateboard (by asking)

[short radish]

👍

thinking of doing a UI update after dimmy

and i like the WA

[sturdy moat]

i got a second mythic weapon, do I still keep a crafted dagger for ascendance?

or both 723

[warm marlin]

the spirits are so much easier

[upbeat sorrel]

ya keep for the embellish

offhand is a good low budget piece for embellish

[short radish]

your OH is kinda worthless for damage

so you can just put your 720 in OH

[frozen lichen]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tropic night]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[clear scroll]

someone told me there's a build where you dont black powder in aoe?

[lilac stag]

It's the assa bleed build or either of the outlaw builds

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[short radish]

also could be talking about the build from the start of TWW

[clear scroll]

ahh, i see tyty

does this look right for M+?

[dusk stone]

its fine

[lilac stag]

drop rotten for finality depending on your gear

[clear scroll]

gear is garbo. 696 on this alt. have 4 piece though

how come this dude doesn't talk about using black powder as a spender here? https://pie.yt/?v=https://youtu.be/FKe6-ZKpESg?si=BF1QWCiarFa6JUQY&t=308&pieshare=1

i time stamped it

[supple inlet]

yo when do I suriken storm instead of shadowstrike/backstab and do we just never black powder? thanks

[winter ice]

Only SS outside of dance or in between coups in dance

BP at 4+ mobs marked w expose

[lilac stag]

YT shit is usually shit

and key enjoyers feelycraft the shit out of stuff

BP does a shit ton of dmg. Evic in comparison, does not, especially in AOE

[lilac stag]

you just BP at 4+ no shits given about FW

[short radish]

BLACK POWDER IS PADDING

[winter ice]

bansherz doing irreparable damage to the player base with that video of prio/pad

[clear scroll]

can someone link me the current raid build?

[dusk stone]

that video has a decent chunk of misinfo in it

[short radish]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

pick any of them

[clear scroll]

ty. wasn't sure if they were up to date

[short radish]

written guides for wow are generally going to be more up to date than a video

[lilac stag]

subs guides are very good

subs youtube is almost non-existant

and cuases headaches in here

[clear scroll]

eww. raid build plays cold blood?

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[lilac stag]

we have forever

lol

[clear scroll]

just now making the swap from assa to sub ><

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[lilac stag]

you play assa? eww

[clear scroll]

i'm an ass man, huehue

[short radish]

[lilac stag]

I wonder how many assa rogues are pissed they HAVE to play sub

we need a kill counter

[serene notch]

do we hold CDs for platform phase of salad man?

If I dont looks like im behing about 25 secs

[lilac stag]

lorrgs but that may have changed with nerfs

[serene notch]

seems awfil

[lilac stag]

you can literally see the CD timeline there

[devout quarry]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[clear scroll]

someone on reddit mentioned a WA telling them when to start pooling energy for their go's

is that a thing?

[devout quarry]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

what in the heck are you reading

read the guides lol

[devout quarry]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[devout quarry]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lilac stag]

stay off yt and reddit and askmrrobot and facebook wow

we hold short cds for our 90 second cds, that's about all the pooling there is for sub

[short radish]

2nd expansion in a row now to happen on the last tier

surely it wouldnt happen a 3rd

[short radish]

bro just dont take advice from reddit in general

[blazing yew]

What is the range on nimble flurry?

[lilac stag]

8y around you

[blazing yew]

ty

[lilac stag]

If only assa wasn’t so buggy

[terse knoll]

Hey all- I have a stupid question. Do you need to let the coup de grace animation finish or do you keep blasting immediately?

[short radish]

blast

[west tide]

WOOO A PRISM DROPPED ON MYTHIC

[terse knoll]

ok cool. I know it is coded as three seperate evisicrates so was worried you could stop it some how

[west tide]

IM FINALLY SAVED

[short radish]

gzgzgzgz

be sure to send a screenshot to guy

[terse knoll]

congrats im happy for you

[coarse hound]

We are finishing on 6 cp right guys? someone linked a video earlier guy was saying 5+

[short radish]

[lilac stag]

6

[lilac stag]

The amount of shit information that surfaces when this spec is remotely good is comical.

[coarse hound]

Im aware I have read Fuu's guide I was just being contrarian

[warm marlin]

@native zodiac autumn who

crutch fr fr

[short radish]

gzgz

[lilac stag]

i guess we opening outlaw vaults from here on out

[warm marlin]

was rank1 boss damage by 200k as well

prism passive maybe goated especially with add nerfs

[lilac stag]

what's your opener look like vs first prism send

[lilac stag]

the little hills are sadge

[short radish]

pot on amp yeh?

not on pull

[lilac stag]

emotional trama

[warm marlin]

yes

[short radish]

we might be extending instead of reclearing

[lilac stag]

soulbinder 9 stack kekw

love a nice highroll

[warm marlin]

idk we inted reclear a bit and it only took 2 hours

got like 5 caster set piece things and 2 more pairs of boots

[lucid jackal]

theres like no downside to reclear tbqh

First 6 are free on farm

and they just gutted last 2

u might die 2-4 times to fract and soul hunters but like

Also not really

[warm marlin]

we only died to frac due to issues with the liquid weakaura

apparently theres some backend table issue atm

entire raid had to restart

[lucid jackal]

Ya thats what I mean

[north knoll]

Sorry if asked before but is there ever a point where you may have too much mastery '

[short radish]

when the bot tells you

[short radish]

yeah theres some sentiment that we need 2 nights to kill nexus this week and if reclear takes too long

we wont kill till next week

and our reclears have been kinda cursed

[lilac stag]

We don’t worry about stats. Just avoid haste and run topgear sims

[atomic steeple]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[west tide]

what does autumn give us

[warm marlin]

a one time infusion of 9 seconds of cooldown reduction

[west tide]

do i need it

on nexus king 😮

[warm marlin]

its good

its not needed

see above you can still do damage in damage amp and add platform, just helps make it easier and undoubtably helps a bit

you miss 6 seconds of the amp without it

[west tide]

do i only need one

or all of em

[warm marlin]

yes

[west tide]

when is bis time to get it after plat?

[lucid jackal]

I feel like it does literally nopthiong on nexus

How does it do anything

[plush roost]

i hate

this bosses kill timer

[west tide]

did u get autumn bro

[lucid jackal]

Nopp

Its important on dimensius

But I feel like it does nothing on nexus

[warm marlin]

its just being able to start flag with amp/1-2s before amp compared to 6s in

i feel like damage amp is the main gain

[lucid jackal]

the amp lasts so long tho

[warm marlin]

you will miss minimum 2s of dance compared to an autumn gamer

well

at least 1

huge diff ofc

[lucid jackal]

I feel like I got my entire flag in the burn

[warm marlin]

you do but unless you are dancing same global as flag

youre missing dance time

[civic lake]

how are we at taget swapping in raid? it FEELS bad for sure, but if the damage is good i cant argue against it lol

[warm marlin]

again i dont think its a big difference at all, but its definitely easier with it

[short radish]

sub is one of the easiest classes with target swap

[somber cipher]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[coral bear]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[plucky parrot]

yeah that kill time looks demonic

[fickle mason]

What trinkets would be ideal for Salad bar and for dimensius?

[twilit gorge]

!log

[short radish]

prism + forge

but can be prism + passive

[fickle mason]

not antaena?

[plucky parrot]

not for dim/ nexus king

[ivory dome]

how are peoples coup de grace their number 1 dmg on logs

[tepid trellis]

tierset

makes it do ALOT

of dmg

this is even on a fight with AoE

[flat ember]

sims showing neck over antenna but is it smart passing it up?

[fleet wharf]

Kind of depends on your loot prio and other tinket situation. Antennae is nice, but there is a fair chance you don't see another neck for the remainder of tier

[flat ember]

true its prob neck then, antenna will drop on our reclear hopefully lmao

[sinful marten]

do i play antena prism or double on use

i feel like double on use still better on some fights

[lilac stag]

Whatever you want

[sinful marten]

i mean i want to play what is better

[lilac stag]

They’re close. Its that simple

[sinful marten]

the issue is my antena is myth and my 2nd on use is ulduar trinket

[lilac stag]

Yeah gl with that as a second onuse

[sinful marten]

its not even that bad tbh

it seems better than forge heroic

sims*

its legit forge on steroids

[limpid gull]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[limpid gull]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[sinful marten]

btw how do you play with antena

do i just run away from the things and pick them before dancing

[marble thistle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[scenic plover]

sadge

[tame terrace]

whats the balck powder damage bug thing

[light island]

would it be psychotic to craft a dagger ( after having crafted a sword + wrist ) as my 3rd craft so i can play both sub and outlaw to some degree

[tame terrace]

no

[native zodiac]

[warm marlin]

it surely was not the best pull i had by a good margin and procced 2p like 5 times in a row in the burn

[scenic plover]

if i use a cast sequence in my shadowblades macro for lily and prism trinket with a reset of 300s will that just use on or the other each time?

[native zodiac]

I can look for the pull where i did 34m when im off work

[astral axle]

thats a bricked up amp fr

[native zodiac]

You killed it then?

[warm marlin]

ye am NA and they butchered it

boss was 10x easier

we full recleared and went from 28% best pull to dead in 3hrs

[warm marlin]

just crit

[native zodiac]

Tbf thats kinda normal, p3 is a joke

[warm marlin]

p1 is so much easier

[native zodiac]

But yeah those nerfs seem massive

[warm marlin]

we were way more consistent

[astral axle]

oh so youre bingus

[warm marlin]

hello

[astral axle]

[native zodiac]

The ghost are easier to see right?

[warm marlin]

yes

[native zodiac]

Wish we would reclear

[warm marlin]

basically impossible to miss their spawn now

[native zodiac]

God bless

They also completely nuked dim

[warm marlin]

it did look that way

[west tide]

ok i got autumn on nexus king it basically lets you have ur flag up at the very start of the plats too basically

plats seem easy with the nerfs now just saw it a few times today

[forest pond]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/n17wn8dt1Lwn5FufpGqh14 taking shoulders to 723 would be best upgrade, but trinket myth is "more rare" or?

[long yarrow]

Holy shit this one is a thinker

I have no clue what to get here

[fossil forge]

https://tenor.com/view/myles-l-dance-gif-gif-25901645

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty rose]

nah guys don't give me hope for my vault

[long yarrow]

If I have to get the boots out of this one I will be heavily disappointed

[haughty rose]

i still use champ netherprism and s2 pacemaker

[long yarrow]

I am disappointed

[long yarrow]

That was me not too long ago

[haughty rose]

boots sim best?

[long yarrow]

I guess they are just that op

[haughty rose]

i mean, they never not dropped in HC for me i think. Got them in my first run so i'd definitely get myth pacemaker or HC ritual forge

but if i was you i would clear HC before picking anything

[long yarrow]

I mean you're not wrong

[still depot]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[long yarrow]

Quite disappointing

I was hoping forge would sim better

[still depot]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[scenic plover]

/cast Shadow Blades
/castsequence reset=120 13,14

will that work for lily + netherprism (lily is in slot 13)

[vale pine]

just type /simc with vault open and you can sim your vault options

[warm depot]

yeah my b i was under the assumption that raidbots still didnt handle 2x on use properly

[vale pine]

all fine 👍

[warm depot]

idt you need the reset

[west ridge]

Guys quick question i got araz and netherprism on 704 and says the trinket from dawnbreaker on 723 is 2.4% upgrade in dungeonslice and i feel that hard to believe

[scenic plover]

lily is 1:30 tho

[void ocean]

isnt this lovely

[warm depot]

so is blades?

its 1.5min

[scenic plover]

ok and how would you write a macro that alternates lily and prism use then

[west ridge]

U bind them separately or only use 1 on use trinket

[warm depot]

i mean i personally wouldnt i guess

[scenic plover]

is this sim trustable, double wax above double whet?

[warm depot]

just seems like way more work than having prism seperately

[scenic plover]

"work"

its literally 1 line in a macro

[warm depot]

i mean fair but sometimes u also might want to hold prism for 18 stack vs 9

[scenic plover]

thats literally what the macro is doing

[west ridge]

I mean he does that cause u cant use 2 on use trinkets at the same time

[warm depot]

oh wait im fuckin STUPID

[scenic plover]

first prism will be 9 and the rest of the fihgt will be 18

[warm depot]

holy shit

idk why i read the 120 as 1 minute 20 LMFAO

holy shit

ok my b i need to sleep HAAHAHA

[scenic plover]

cooked

:))

[warm depot]

u right u right my b

[haughty rose]

ffs

[scenic plover]

fun fact, i asked gpt for that cast sequence and gpt went "ye sure just do reset=90 and then press on exactly that second to get the alternating trinkets"

[warm depot]

aintnoway

[scenic plover]

i think i have to take my second socket and the season is only in like week 4?

[warm depot]

despair

[haughty rose]

shit trinket sims by far the best

[west ridge]

Idk if i just should take dawnbreaker trinket on myth or socket

[short radish]

its not a terrible passive trinket

its not a great trinket but its not a terrible passive trinket

[haughty rose]

sigil?

[short radish]

i assume dawnbreaker they mean the crystal

sigil is garbage

its less stats than lily

[haughty rose]

ah

that garbage trinket sims by far the best in all of my vault 😭

[short radish]

dont take sigil

[long yarrow]

I mean that trinket isn't so bad

By far the best pure damage trinket

Not bis but hey, could be wrose

[short radish]

no

its garbage

get a pvp trinket instead

pvp trinket as well for reference

[long yarrow]

No I mean the cosmic hunt

[haughty rose]

i honestly don't know what else i would take. so lea trink was simed with mastery and i won't have a mastery highest in every m+ run

[long yarrow]

The singet is a tosser

[short radish]

brother when was cosmic hunt mentioned

[wanton depot]

trinkets or m track head (i have hero one )?

[long yarrow]

Earlier?

[haughty rose]

in my vault pic

[severe prism]

does it matter which weapon enchant is on mh/oh ?

[short radish]

oh my bad im blind was looking at everyone elses instead of yours

[haughty rose]

and i talked about sigil while priory is called signet

[short radish]

sorry.

[long yarrow]

All good boss

[short radish]

i think sigil is only good on ST though

in aoe, the passive stat trinkets are better

[haughty rose]

all good it's early in the morning (or late in night depending on where you are)

[short radish]

[bleak night]

[short radish]

im probably just dyslexic though

and have taken sigil out of the loot pool in my brain

[short radish]

is that at max upgrade though?

[haughty rose]

no. not sure if i wanna waste gilded for any of this crap

and it was simmed 5min patchwerk

[short radish]

do you mythic raid though?

[haughty rose]

dungeon slive: but that means i would need a mastery highest spec in every m+ run

[short radish]

because what else are you going to send gilded into

mastery isnt that hard to find

[haughty rose]

heroic upgrades, craft and myth vault

[short radish]

yeha so its not that big of a waste to send into a trinket tbh

[haughty rose]

i wait for after i cleard HC this week. maybe i hoave some loot luck. i'm also still on champ set chest

[short radish]

crest saving at this point is kinda whatever

they dont generate interest

[sand flax]

hey guys, does the D.I.S.C belt is still playable ? It has been nerfed, does Raidbot also apply the nerf ?

[short radish]

nerf'd in .5 patch

not yet

[sand flax]

ty

[limpid sage]

this is catalyst week right?

forgor

[tight monolith]

thoughts? lily sims the best but idk (I have mythic prism) Kinda just waiting for some sort of antenna or forge

[tight monolith]

yeah!

[limpid sage]

I'd def take ring

[tight monolith]

same

the crest save very nice too

[limpid sage]

what's your other trinket?

[tight monolith]

right now only a 704 pacemaker but bound to change soon hopefully

[long yarrow]

Peacemaker is a good passive trinket

[tight monolith]

oh yeah def

[long yarrow]

I'm not sure forge prism sims are still quite accurate

Unless cosmic hunt is better than I give it credit for, I guess

[quaint bridge]

!trinkets

[past storm]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[worldly violet]

/macros

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[worldly violet]

!st

[tribal blade]

we're shitting on meta specs in 17 eco

nbd

also doing nearly identical prio dmg to the pactspeakers and sentinels

[limpid sage]

As the arcane mage?

[pastel tapir]

you guys combine dance+symbols? why not?

macro*

[tribal blade]

yeah

1 sec

[limpid sage]

Damn

[tribal blade]

pactspeakers

[limpid sage]

I knew we beat them on overall, but not prio dam

[clever delta]

But do you have grip?

[hollow spear]

Dunno if Prophet has a grip

He played sin for too long

[rocky ocean]

Were you bping a lot?

[tribal blade]

sentintels (lower here because i chose to BP a bunch since we have an arcane)

[tribal blade]

quite a bit yeah

[clever delta]

The reason why dk will be played over rogue is grip

[tribal blade]

oh yeah for sure

[empty plume]

sub effectively reduces the party's damage by not bringing a dps-raidbuff
we'd need to gap at the top end by like... 15% to break even, since they bring stuff and we bring atrophic/numbing

[tribal blade]

grip is massive utliity

[tribal blade]

y u p

this is why i hate raid buffs in M+

[empty plume]

I think that's the main thing dictating comp meta

we lack a bit of aoe control, and a raidbuff

[dusty totem]

But the choice is not between dk and rogue but between rogue and mage

[empty plume]

obviously good dam tho

[tribal blade]

in the past few seasons yeah

raid buff stacking has become very popular

[worldly violet]

cold blood or trristle tea is better? for keys

[tribal blade]

whichever you prefer

this was also a failed 17 DB

failed after 2nd boss

DB feels amazing as sub

[worldly violet]

i feel like with tea, i leave more breakups and with cold blood one i run out of energy every time

[tribal blade]

yeah its why i prefer running tea in keys

vigor feels awesome

[limpid sage]

You guys know if guardian druids are ok atm?

[tacit coral]

guys does the logic gate omega ring have too much haste for it to be preferable?

[tribal blade]

i think not bad

haven't run with many tbh

[limpid sage]

Was just thinking if they’d maybe be preferable to prot warr

Now that fury warr is buffed

[tribal blade]

i think prot warr is better

[limpid sage]

And fury warr dmg profile fits better with us

[tribal blade]

yes fury's dmg profile compliments sub very well

you know for a fact they have dmg in every pull

so you can sit on stuff more

[swift cloak]

Do you have logs by chance ?

[tribal blade]

nah i don't sorry

[limpid sage]

Guardian druid, rsham, sub, fury, fdk might be pog

Except triple melee

[worldly violet]

when im in sdance, the guides say i's better to spam ss than shurikens? is that true?

[past storm]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[alpine wraith]

instead of fdk ww monk buff us more!

[swift cloak]

I was wondering if 6.4 was good for dawn 13 but it seems that its not even close to be good

[feral barn]

Hello guys, hope you got lucky on your vault !
I have the Pacemaker from Floodgate and the Lilly.
I currently have Lilly + Prism (double active) i'm gonna sim of course, but what do you guys think about double active ? I played it and felt way better

[iron plover]

They should get rid of ads with true vision in m+ :)

[tribal blade]

but WW is kinda monka dps haha

i've only run with one WW this season

[mighty citrus]

so what build do you use then?

[tribal blade]

this

i think kush is using exactly this build too

[fossil forge]

Hell no can u imagine the racist skips

[tribal blade]

he might have swapped, kush likes to experiment a lot

[mighty citrus]

oh i read DB and thought you mean dark brew 😄

[fossil forge]

Kush the goat

[tribal blade]

HAHA nah

[hollow spear]

it's not like the difference between builds is massive

doesn't really matter

if one feels better for you than the other, go for it

[swift cloak]

I feel like on some dungeons its not worth at all to go tfd

[alpine wraith]

you are crazy

[tribal blade]

WM is almost useless in aoe

trust

[chrome palm]

Tfd is run in raid even

[iron plover]

I just want shroud to be useful again :(

[alpine raft]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[tribal blade]

1 use of TFD in keys is worth some stupid amount of time of WM

so you can not get TFD very many times in a key and it's still better than WM

[nova cairn]

What in the fuck is this

[alpine wraith]

a belt

[nova cairn]

The belt is our bis?

It's got a socket as well

[tribal blade]

that's really good for sub

[clever delta]

He went back to tornado 😄

[alpine wraith]

when they nerf disc it is not bad

[nova cairn]

O rly?

[tribal blade]

yeah good stats

[limpid sage]

It is

[short radish]

/run local q=(C_CurrencyInfo.GetCurrencyInfo(3141).maxQuantity or 0) if q % 2 == 0 then print("Spark this week, Catalyst next week") else print("Catalyst this week, Spark next week") end

[tribal blade]

GROSS

[limpid sage]

But not for the reasons it used to be useful

[tribal blade]

basically right now you can run any piece of gear that doesn't have haste on it

and you're chilling

[limpid sage]

3 min speed shroud goes brrrrr

[nova cairn]

I presume it won't replace it this week but when 11.2.5 comes out

Obs I'll sim

[nova cairn]

fairrr

[fossil forge]

Shroud strictly for movement speed

[limpid sage]

Why’re there only like 3 garfs btw

[short radish]

wym only 3?

[limpid sage]

ongarf goes hard

[fossil forge]

I am yoinking garfbiznis

[runic trail]

But then you have to pay discord money for garf access

[scenic plover]

idk, where is this secret garf emote server

[fallow nimbus]

[short radish]

[limpid sage]

we need a garfwithdrink emote

[prisma minnow]

Take cursed stone idol??

[dusk stone]

anyone else seen a lot of boomies in keys so far this week

i almost bet money its gonna be boomie/dk/mage meta again

[vale pine]

dh possible too

dh, arcane, mage do insanely well

boomie is a beast on aoe, but lacking in st

subtlety isn't that bad either

assassination is mainly tuning, even tho you can say tuning = bugs

it is not as noticable higher tuned than other rogue specs

which was the main reason you saw it almost exclusively played for essentially the entire xpac in m+

[cursive vapor]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[chrome palm]

lot of diverse comps in top runs

but people are kinda just playing whatever they want it seems

[late oxide]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[viscid urchin]

Is magic damage just any damage that isn't physical?

[short radish]

sorta

there's also cosmic damage

and radiant damage

so the answer is kinda yes

but also no

[viscid urchin]

But for the purposes of sub, nature and shadow are magical?

[short radish]

yes

[viscid urchin]

Okie

[vale pine]

we will see more meta chasing after mdi

the "luck" we atm have is that there are at least 2 comps played

pure melee and mixed combos

[twilit oracle]

Crying right now

[vale pine]

tho you can analyze a lot by looking at data

[twilit oracle]

trash ass vault

[vale pine]

e.g. if you look at the highest filter you can set, you see a dispriportionately high amount of dk's

and you see the specs i mentioned as strong way more than others

so if we filter to only see dps

you see the best specs here

[potent verge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

roughly half of our damage is magic

[runic trail]

We're mages confirmed

[void ocean]

do we know how big diff is when we use prism as 3min cd vs 90sec, with only one on-use ofc

[vale pine]

mostly shadow damage or nature damage, hero talents have usually mixed magic damage sources which include shadow

[dusty totem]

Rogue would be higher on the list if u add assa and sub together tho. And i think alot of peps are swaping between them for different keys

[vale pine]

you can "merge together" other classes too and it would create a similar picture

[dusty totem]

Very true but eg ret and havoc er kinda overrated on this chart

But ur point still stands

[bleak night]

ret sure, but havoc is actually just very good atm

and isnt being held back by vdh anymore

[dusty totem]

Not really talking about how good they are just that when there is only one spec being played their bar will be larger

[bleak night]

not really sure what you mean there ngl but fair enough

[glass rune]

what wep embellishment do i want as a M+ player?

[alpine wraith]

embellish are not that impactful

[keen hare]

might be looking to swap sub for raid

[alpine wraith]

like best is 2 dawnthread

[keen hare]

it's too good and im bad at outlaw

[alpine wraith]

but most people have wep crafted

so ascendance+band

[glass rune]

ty

[lilac stag]

Just get 2x loomer daggies

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

ez

[scenic plover]

socket within margin of error

sick

[void ocean]

any takers on this?

i dont know how to change apl to sim prism as 90 sec

and id say bot uses it as 3 min cd

[scenic plover]

does it tho

[void ocean]

judging by quick sim, yes

[lilac stag]

It’s the same overall in ST if no amps etc

[fair cloak]

I have 720 crafted belt

With amp to acension

Why belt from delvs Sims higher

Must be a error no

[alpine wraith]

it is the same dps

[lilac stag]

Yes it does

[lilac stag]

Or you’re missing crit / the socket

[void ocean]

do u guys play around antenna orbs in terms of picking it up and stuff

i hate that kind of gameplay so much

or should i just let it come to me

[modest river]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[queen plinth]

do we macro symbols to shadow dance?

or are there any scenarios where we symbols sectech

without dance

[lilac stag]

Yes

[queen plinth]

really like when

this wouldnt be that often then no?

[alpine wraith]

i play around it a bit yea

[lilac stag]

When it won’t interfere with cds.

And it can happen enough

You’re often sending SD without symbols to get more CDR on Sectech

and macroing it fucks that up

Macro very bad

[queen plinth]

i only press symbols with shadow dacne to sec tech haven tpressed a single smybols sec tech without shadowdance, prolly thats why my overall is fucked up

really dont understand in what scenario we would do that

[lilac stag]

Your dps is bad for multiple reasons likely

Not Sending a dry sod Sectech is the least of it

[north schooner]

sometimes you use sd+sod together, but usually when you back to back dance you will have to press dance first and delay sod a bit. So even if you have a bind with dance+sod, you will still need separate binds

[queen plinth]

so symbols does not add up on previous symbols?

sadge

[north schooner]

symbols do pandemic yes

but you want your sectec to be supercharged

which means that in your second dance your sectec must be at most the second finisher after your sod

[high copper]

do you just stay sub spec for the vault or do you select something else?

[vale pine]

the only diffrence between the rogue specs is weapon

so switching to outlaw gives you one hand weapons instead of daggers

[high copper]

not sure what to do here, because currently running champion araz and anub ikkaj hero

the sack is simming higher with the ikkaj combo

but isnt lily goat?

[karmic harbor]

just give me forgeweaver trinket pls

[high copper]

im not sure which one to pick myself 🙁 any tips guys?

[short radish]

lily

actually

hmm

[lilac stag]

Your gear is likely “crap” if you’re only simming 2.9

[high copper]

do i pair it with araz and have 2 on use?

yes i just stared gearing this rogue lol

just trying to plan ahead

[lilac stag]

That’s going to skew things a bit

[high copper]

but ran 4 10s last night and secured two slot myth vault

yeah forgot to mention its like a brand new rogue lol 😄

[lilac stag]

Personally I’d just grab Lily

[short radish]

yeah

[high copper]

hmm ok guys thanks! sucks i have to replace the araz already but oh well

[visual lark]

is halls ez now

[lilac stag]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```

[scenic plover]

just sim using both, could work out as more damage

[mellow drum]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[high copper]

how does shadowmeld work with sub? do i just spam it on cd then backstab?

[vale pine]

you would shadowstrike after it

[hazy breach]

But its largely useless

[fossil forge]

Shadowmeld gives you stealth abilities ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[fossil forge]

Tauren supremacy might be over soon

[vale pine]

you can use melt for some cheeses

[karmic harbor]

i think this holding finishers 10s before flag makes it kinda hard to have 1.5charges of dance ready for flag/sb

[vale pine]

like in keys where enemies channel on you, you can vanish or shadowmeld to cancle it

[karmic harbor]

also why is it so important to chain dances in sb/flag?

[spiral knot]

TIL you can melt cheese in wow.

[hazy breach]

Because you dont want to spend globals without the damage that dance gives you during your biggest cooldowns

[clever holly]

Because 90% of your damage happens in cds

[keen hare]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hazy breach]

When you do ~50% more damage from flag+blades you dont want to backstab

Just to have the dance then fall outside of that +50% damage window

When you could line em up instead and get them both at the same time

[queen kraken]

excuse me but do you mind if i pick ur brain in dm? 😂 my log didnt get any reply sadly 🤪

[carmine portal]

No idea how/where to sim it best but

I have NO Soulhunter boots, how much of an upgrade would HC ones be off the bat?

[karmic harbor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot

[dusk stone]

you see arcane havoc dk standing out for sure, but with the buffs to boomie i think there's a legitimate line of thought that says it's just gonna be arcane;/boomie/dk again

[carmine portal]

Raidbots says it's like, 10k or smth

Whereas this DH in my grp says it's 500K for him

lol

and he has Normal boots

[dusk stone]

ive ran with many today and they are pretty well rounded, good ST good AoE, better utility than us. But honestly I think a lot of people just can't or don't want to play sub regardless of how good it is

[vale pine]

possible, we will see within the next few weeks

[dusk stone]

kiras team is already doing it kinda, he's reccomending boomie. I think there's too much to be lost from vdh/dk/boomie combo with the chain CC's and how stilted pulls are to those

[karmic harbor]

ask him to post the raidbots log

when i had hero boots, 710 sh boots were like 90k dps gain for me

[inner garnet]

then back to disc priest again with that comb or brining sham? surely rdruid and boomie wont be in same comp, right?

[vale osprey]

Think HC ones were simming at like 1.4% for me or something

Myth boots at 2.2

[dusk stone]

also about us, (sub rogues) I think a large reason we're not seeing more representation is sub is just too hard, and it's also a rogue. Our arcane player who tried to play sub just couldn't really do it well. Sub doesn't lend itself very well at all to people who don't put a lot of work into their spec

[vale pine]

the main benefit from boomie is

how insane the aoe is

[dusk stone]

im in 14/15's and I have lost in details less than 3 times this patch to a DK (for a completed key) to the best of my knowledge

even with good output its just not enough

[vocal badge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

we have poisons for our utils really fighting against vortex, beam and etc

[short radish]

just ask it here, im too lazy for dms

[pliant arrow]

I saw this question answered somewhere, but cant find it again; When playing first dance, often my 2nd sectech comes up right before my first SD ends, should i just send Sectech and instapop dance after, or hold sectec for a second?

[dusk stone]

or alternatively against grips, amz

[alpine wraith]

yea you send sec tech

you can even send SoD on pandemic

so you get the finisher before

[pliant arrow]

yea thanks, thats what ive been doing

[dusk stone]

honestly they need to rework boomie or anytime its good its just gonna always be meta with how its util kit is, same with DK

[lilac stag]

Bm pulling 40m in gambit opener with 3 buttons while sub in playing piano doing 60% of that

[alpine wraith]

as long as you supercharge sec tech

[dusk stone]

yeah that too

i havent seen new bms yet

[tight fjord]

can anyone tell what i'm doing wrong from this? mine is the details. the logs screenshot is from the leaderboard

[dusk stone]

what key level was this bm

[tight fjord]

16

[lilac stag]

Our one hunter legit put black arrow on foot pedal and is acting like he’s playing double bass in raid

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[tight fjord]

i'm missing nimble fury damage and idk how to get it

[dusk stone]

our strength atm isnt even really our 1st pull anyway, its generally the 2nd where we shine, or when the tank chain pulls for your 2nd flag

[carmine portal]

So frustrating, I have 0 soulboots and there is no way to prio it to ppl who don't have them

[steady timber]

There's a remarkable difference in coup de grace damage between those 2 images

[tight fjord]

yea i'm low on that too

[karmic harbor]

post your raidbots log

[dusk stone]

but yeah the complexity of sub is too much even for people whove played the game for years

[karmic harbor]

is sub rly that complex

[dusk stone]

its not even that stuff is meta, its that how easy something is is also overvalued

[tight fjord]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B3KDnvTxpcYa9dNt?fight=last

[lilac stag]

Compared to everything else. Yes.

[steady timber]

Sub is quite an easy spec tho

[carmine portal]

It's telling me that boots are 1.5%

[dusk stone]

its complex to get the last 10-15% of of it

[lilac stag]

You haven’t played truly simple specs then

[karmic harbor]

what would those be in your opinion?

[lilac stag]

high rolling

[steady timber]

Heh, maybe I should give ret or bm a spin

[carmine portal]

try DH

[dusk stone]

most things you do with sub require you to think

[alpine wraith]

warr is fun

if you want to brain off

[lilac stag]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/s/jzzC4gCS3t

[carmine portal]

literal blindfold irl

[stiff stirrup]

Or mm at this point. MM has also become 4 button class

[dusk stone]

i mean sub is rewarding atm

[carmine portal]

Don't fool urself

[dusk stone]

just not to most people

[karmic harbor]

like what? having 2 dances for blades/flag?

[carmine portal]

MM has always been that

lol

[dusk stone]

when to symbols your sectec instead of symbols dance, knowing exactly how many charges you need, when you should have 1.8 charges instead of 1.5

[queen kraken]

i compared logs on frac (you, yoinka, me) and it seems like im doinmg stuff massively wrong.

I get 2 double coup casts within the first thirty secs, u two get 6 - even t ho all 3 of us got 3 sts. Within that timeframe im behind you in casts by 0.4, whereas yoinka got even 2.2 on you.

Furthermore u both get more dmg out of your shadowblades somehow.

I realized during soul hunters prog that im stupid, since i didnt get how ppl get a 2nd st into tfd - its just that u can symbol the finisher on 12-14 sec remaining i think and then u get ur buffed st and just hit ur dance once the old one wears off (there are no snapshots iirc?).

What i dont get is how u two get so much more dmg out of coup for example (6 vs 4 cAsts should be 33% not including the flawless stacks, but u two deal double my coup dmg).

[steady timber]

Oh yeah it's a good season to try fury

[stiff stirrup]

At the very least you used to mix in explosive or volley. Now in m+ build it’s just aimed rapid fire and black arrow procs

[queen kraken]

sorry for the wall of text 😅

[dusk stone]

charing your prism the accurate amount a pull beforehand

honestly rupture spreading to a degree just because its not intuitive with the spec

[upbeat cradle]

that gameplay sounds too complicated for me i'd rather play sub

[dusk stone]

we have abilities like shuriken tornado which are good but are a huge pain to use

[lilac stag]

Subs hardest issue imo is getting full use of dance between refunds, bugs and reacting properly.

[dusk stone]

and all the stuff that goes into that ye

most people just want brain off spec, or if its important enough like arcane use hekili

im not sure how good hekili is for sub but our arcane couldnt make it work that well

[lilac stag]

hekili will always be reactive.

So if you send it down a dark path of errors you’re doomed

Fuu did a lot to help make it work proper

[dusk stone]

also sub is really pull and tank route dependent so even if you were to have someone who was good at it, knowledgeable at it and etc you still have to deal with external factors

[short radish]

dont compare me, i'm a monkey that copies everyone else

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[dusk stone]

i did two different floodgates today, one which i had 20mil overall going into 1st boss, and one where I had 12 and the only difference was routing

[short radish]

there's also just a lot of variance

[queen kraken]

ye but both logs with 6 coups instead of 4 sound suspicious

[dusk stone]

that too yes, but in this case my flag just lined up very well with each pull

which i guess is variance in itself

with assassination you never have to worry too much about the tank screwing you over aside from stealth

you always do damage regardless

[vale pine]

to be fair

i think you could argue sub gets screwed over as much if not more

because of tfd

[dusk stone]

thats another example of stuff thats hard for new sub rogues to even fathom is getting enough TFD's a key

[vale pine]

i found it happens quite a lot where tanks keep pulling small when it could be bigger pulls and create a high uptime low-ish target chain

[karmic harbor]

damn looking through my logs im only getting 7 casts in non tfd dances instead of 8 🥴

[slate marlin]

anyone else got resilient key after doing hoa but not priory?

[dusk stone]

you mean two mobs at 10% hp and he chains to the next?

chaining isnt even bad for us, its when its done poorly with no acknowledgement of our CD's that it makes you want to rip your hair out

[lilac stag]

My point exactly. A lot of high logs are like this.

[queen kraken]

btw unless its flag time u just send any coup or do u even do coup => dance => storm/bs => st => ( storm/bs=>) coup?

[karmic harbor]

think is bugged, priory uses your best from last season i think (if its higher)

[vale pine]

i just don't understand tank pathing and pulls many times

[queen kraken]

like if coup comes up the same time u got small dance with st

[vale pine]

but then again, if we time the key, thats fine

[dusk stone]

well they don't think, they only do their route

few tanks below like 16s seem to actually look at cds

[lilac stag]

It’s a plan until they forget. I try not to judge.

[dusk stone]

there's also the problem of them even knowing what flag is because its a sub rogue

[short radish]

i just send any coup

[slate marlin]

damn, amazing then, gotta abuse early

[lilac stag]

most just need to push W

[vale pine]

i think you can watch one of the key pushers

and see just how much they plan around pulls

[lilac stag]

Then they try that and groups wipe

due to cc

I just say I’ve got CDs coming up and tank usually try’s to add a pack if it’s a smaller pull

no one understands rogue CDs. Hell most rogues don’t.

[dusk stone]

its actually such a problem with tanks, that if at the end of a key you talk to the tank and ask him why no pulls were done with your cds in mind, they respond with 'oops sry i forgot stealth'

that one i've encountered quite a few times