subtlety

[tepid trellis]

so there is no right or wrong

the robot knows

[pure pollen]

gotcha, appreciate you

[wheat sentinel]

so worst case scenario after raid in a few hours, I got a champ prism in my vault.

How bad is it if I don't have a forge trinket as my second, and lean on something like an empowering crystal?

[tepid trellis]

its aite

[wheat sentinel]

alright, cool

thanks

[tepid trellis]

gotta make do with what ya got

[wheat sentinel]

I got a mythic crystal in vault, or gloves if it ends up dropping.

I've yet to see it on rogue so surely it'll pop up this time

[dusk stone]

so it turns out i'm not insane for being mad that tanks aren't pulling around my cds

sub gets crazy parses when its done right

[wheat sentinel]

I'm so rusty on sub but I'm almost able to play it lol

Been farming dawnbreaker with the worst pug players on the planet for the past three hours.

[dusk stone]

today has been rough

was with a rag dk who died 5x in halls 14

was ez key otherwise

[haughty rose]

got invited to a premade 4/5 pug who specifically asked for a rogue for halls 13. It was pretty much free until the pack after the second boss. I don't know exactly what was going on but the tank did the same big pull 4 times in a row always dying after 20-30 seconds and then we abandoned

[dusk stone]

they are asking for rogue because of wound poison

[haughty rose]

well wrong rogue then lmao

[dusk stone]

you should always swap to wound poison for the mini boss before last boss

it goes a lot easier

take the talents for it too

[haughty rose]

ah

they didn't say it

[dusk stone]

wound poison 1st/2nd split as well

keeps the small adds from running

[haughty rose]

oh wound poison, the pvp thing so not assa exclusive got you

don't think i ever used that outside of pvp

[honest saddle]

I am not seeing that on the sim, I am seeing 18 at the 3 minute mark.

[river vine]

Probably taking ritual forge from vault, do I just play it like a 2m spec or on pull and use again at 3m?

[oblique burrow]

Hey quick question, does symbols of death benefit from the pandemic ?

[lilac stag]

If no prism, it’s a 3 min trinket

[oblique burrow]

Like with rupture ?

[tepid trellis]

it does yes

[oblique burrow]

Thx friend

[vocal badge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tepid trellis]

not something we generally speaking really give a shit about

but it does pandemic

[honest saddle]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/abQtWEAXwzre33SD5Tkt6o

First prism use at 3 minutes

[tepid trellis]

prism at 90s or 180s is basically the same

in full single target

like identical

[honest saddle]

assumed so

its a lorrgs angle on everything else

[glossy mist]

when i do a big pull, how many rupture i do on all mobs or only 4 or so?

[stoic token]

https://tenor.com/view/curtain-gif-19798927

sims in reality

[tepid trellis]

however many lives a decent amount of times, and you just rupture them between dances

[honest saddle]

thats a very complicated question to answer. Ideally you would rupture everything, then start cds, but if the mobs will die before the rupture ends, or you will lose cd uptime because they all die, then it would have been better to just send cds.

[tepid trellis]

rupture while gathering

send cds when grouped

dump your dances

rupture the rest

[misty condor]

Why is crit simming so fucking high, I have 32% and the robot still wants more

[tepid trellis]

crit goodge

[stoic token]

b/c its good...

[tepid trellis]

only "bad" stat is haste

[stoic token]

lol

[honest saddle]

you probably have a lot more than 32% if you run antenna or council's guile enchant

[astral axle]

but surely being a master at something is better than being critical, right?

[tepid trellis]

well being critical means

having the chance of doubling

your master

[honest saddle]

what about being versatile?

[tepid trellis]

so

checkmate

[honest saddle]

don't you think if we had more agility, we would be able to have more evasion

I think the game used to actually work that way

maybe it still does and they hide it

[pliant robin]

is it possible to macro trinket + shadowblades + secret technique into one macro? i cant get everything to trigger

[stoic token]

speed does not equal agility - just ask gohan

[real panther]

any weapon enchants good enough or is there one making a big % diff?

[astral axle]

no being more agile just means we have to use Scrum analysis more

[honest saddle]

sim it

[burnt ridge]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[astral axle]

how owned am i

[rocky stream]

is there a recommended stack count to use the prism? for example above 15 or something? or only at max stack?

[honest saddle]

is most everyone just macroing nether to blades?

or are they doing it manually so they can get 18 stacks on big pad

[vale pine]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[honest saddle]

i guess thats why ritual forge is so good

allows you to use it on pull

and then have flexability of prism

[little sierra]

fuu can i ask you something? why is it recommended to use black powder on 4 targets or more if nimble fury hit 7 at least with eviscerate?

[hazy breach]

Because it does more damage

[honest saddle]

thats a great question for blizzard

[sand roost]

hey lads, are you guys starting off with rupture in the first big pull on floodgates?
My Route Sim did the first rupture after about 55secs into the sim.

[stoic token]

all that means is evis is better at prio dmg

[little sierra]

oh shiet

[hazy breach]

Theres no like hidden interaction or whatever, BP just does more damage at 4 targets than evis

[stoic token]

since evis does aoe we are a pretty good prio class. If you want to pad or things will die evenely BP

[honest saddle]

how are you doing route sims... that seems helpful

[sand roost]

activate expert mode and put the Route String in the footer
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nBMYoP4Ey1j7yPhPzwSHFm

[long yarrow]

Heya, kinda of a weird a question I have both prism and forge, and I know it's better to pop forge on opener, but how do you guys activate prism later? Do you all use a cast sequence or do you just put it in the hotbar? Thanks and sorry if the question was already asked

[astral axle]

isn't the route sim stuff kinda sussy info? 🤔

or am i making that up

[honest saddle]

thats sick. thanks for sharing. Didn't know that was a thing

[stoic token]

cant you just bind them both Shadowblades and have forge as the top trink

[long yarrow]

Yeah that's what I thought but the 1min on use cd fucks it up

[sand roost]

why you think so?

[coral bear]

With how many mobs is it worth it to Shuriken > Black Powder non stop?

rather than Shadowstrike - Black Powder

[sand roost]

Shadowstrike always > Shuriken on 2, BP on 4

[honest saddle]

what about during cds? We all say NEVER shuriken in cds but there has to be a number that its better even if its an absurdly high number

[coral bear]

So 3 Mobs = Shuriken Spam but Eviserate ETC Finisher
4+ = Shuriken Spam but BP fINISHER

[astral axle]

I remember when it was implemented years ago there was a list of reasons it was kinda ehhh. but i don't remember those arguments now 👴

[stoic token]

how so, it should rotate forge,prism,forge,prism

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[coral bear]

Is this right?

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[coral bear]

What if im in burst mode, with shadowblade

Does it still apply?

[astral axle]

it may have changed / been improved since i remember it being implemented

[long yarrow]

Bcs by the time I have blades again forge will be avaliable again and the marco will just pop forge again

[stoic token]

how its 2min cd right?

[rocky ocean]

!coup

[long yarrow]

yeh

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[iron plover]

heroic antennae is showing the same dps as mythic seaforium charge

[little sierra]

does anyone here use backstab macro into your shadow dance?

[coral bear]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[iron plover]

seaforium is prob better than ig right?

[hazy breach]

Nop

[stoic token]

bind it together and if downtime causes forge to come back up just have a seperate keybind just for prims

[hazy breach]

If youre spamming storm, youre not getting coups, youre not getting anything from your tier or hero talent

[honest saddle]

that cant be possible eleem. If we had 10000 adds, then shuriken would be better

[long yarrow]

I will give it a shot, thanks a bunch

[hazy breach]

Well it doesnt matter

Everything is capped at 20

[honest saddle]

yeah

[ember steppe]

Dumb question, but if I don’t get to 6 CP within the 5 second window for the coup de grace for any reason, do I just send it with however many CP I was able to get?

[honest basin]

Yep

[hazy breach]

So youll be doing the same damage to 20 targets as you would with 15032 targets

[honest saddle]

right, makes sense

[sand roost]

Why is it exactly 6 CP? And not 5 or Max CP?

[signal socket]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[stoic token]

if you energy starved its coup,back,coup. If not you can get multiple backstabs in

[honest basin]

Capped at 20? What the fuck is this BLASPHEMY

[hazy breach]

Yeah thats how the game is

[honest saddle]

it's 6 or higher.

[coral bear]

This information is super cool

But I still dont know when to use shuriken if im not un shadowdance, is it 3? 4?

[ember steppe]

2 or more I think

[honest basin]

Blizz kneecapping me by not letting me scale infinitely

[hazy breach]

But some spells that apply dots to all targets are technically uncapped

[sand roost]

But how comes the number 6 or higher? As Deathstalker 5 or higher seemed to be the go CP?

[hazy breach]

Not sure if theres any of those left without a softcap though

[long yarrow]

Yeh that's why unh was so disgusting last season

[coral bear]

So Backstab = 1 Target only
Shuriken = 2+ Targets

and Shadowstrike = Everytime its available

[long yarrow]

That's such a silly thing

[honest basin]

If I wasn't capped at 20 I would do double my overall in keys, trust

[honest saddle]

I don't remember that being the case. I remember 6 for the last few expansions regardless of hero talents. In assassination its 5+ I think.

[stoic token]

b/c that is what the sim spit out as the highest dps apl

[honest basin]

I did have a pretty nasty run in a flood earlier, tank understood the assignment and pulled around specifically my CDs

[stoic token]

when keys start getting high enough to have shadowblades for every pack you start doing wild dmg

[spring elm]

Did they end up nerfing the DISC belt

[stoic token]

.5 patch

[spice lichen]

yo squad
with droptimizer, what is the difference between the "expected" and "best" ?

[sand roost]

Are you waiting on MOMMA with 1.5cds until burst phase or just send it whenever?

[stoic token]

send baby send

[coral bear]

Goated Gear

[honest basin]

I just send every time it's up

My tank did a sick pull where we pulled like 10 mobs into momma

So this happened

[stoic token]

yea i love tanks who leave the packs next to the boss up and pull them as the fight happens. on pull, 1st dmg amp, 2nd dmg ap

they are the best

[sand roost]

i am at 101% unbuffed mastery and playin with the mastery trinket. is this overkill?

[coral bear]

LMAO

My raidbots told me to drop my mastery down

i was at 95 originally

[honest basin]

I was still at 12m overall after swampface that key, that shit was straight fire

[sand roost]

statweight or droptimizer?

[honest basin]

I need all my tanks to pull like that

[long yarrow]

I wish tanks knew how to play aroung rogues more often

Gives me crippling depression when I'm pugging at times

[little sierra]

yo nr1 dust hater, what is your rating atm?

[sand roost]

thats why i gave sub a try and abandoned assa for now.. tanks

[honest basin]

I tell my groups if you just do a big pull every 1.5min we'll+2 it ez

[honest basin]

Not shit brother, I'm a raider not an m+er

Think one of my rogues is 2950 the other is 2880 or so

[long yarrow]

I wish I had people that listen to me

Unfortunately I get in chain pull hell with no cds up

It is what it is

[honest basin]

They never listen but I tell them anyways because I hate myself

[tepid trellis]

puny

[stoic token]

i wish my mage could dump the dmg my rogue can. Im like 8il lower and my rogue destroys my mage

[honest basin]

What's it like to be god's favorite

[sand roost]

god stats, and full mainstat trinkets

[tepid trellis]

gonna go even harder when i get mythic prism in 10 hours

[swift tinsel]

2% haste

[honest basin]

My team gave our last mythic prism to a hunter for his off spec, of which his average parse is a 6

[long yarrow]

It's rough out here

Fuck haste tho

Dogshit stat

I'd have 0 if I could

[honest basin]

Meanwhile I've been maining sub since voti

[shrewd lantern]

why did you craft bracers

and not mh

what the helly

[long yarrow]

I was down bad

That's the answer

[honest basin]

Shoulda used ya free craft for bracers and spent gilded for a weapon

[ripe flame]

down bad for... wrists?

[shrewd lantern]

that doesnt realyl say much

[long yarrow]

Yeah.

[shrewd lantern]

wrists contribute like nothing

[long yarrow]

I've had s2 wrists for I think all of week 1 and 2

[shrewd lantern]

so?

[sand roost]

are we playin lense 2x?

[swift tinsel]

you can

[long yarrow]

I dropped the raid weapons so I didn't need it as much as I did wrists

Mostly for ilvl

[torn bear]

Hello, rogues. I need help here. Is the hero antenna a must pick here? I already have a hero seaforium pacemaker. Or sould I go for a myth tier set?

[shrewd lantern]

nah you just wore 684 wrists np

[sand roost]

does it matter which gems? like some with shadow damage?

[swift tinsel]

nah

embellishments contribute so little you don't itemize around them at all

[long yarrow]

Probably was the play, I'm crafting mh rn anyhow

[long yarrow]

Depending on your rings I'd take logic gate, if you're good I'd take myth set

[honest basin]

I ain't got an in-game screenshot cuz I'm at work but

We making the best of things out here

[shrewd lantern]

need more versa big dog

[torn bear]

this are my rings

[shrewd lantern]

myth pants will gennerally be biggest upgrade

[long yarrow]

Dang that's a hard one, I'd still go with myth pants tho

Taht ring gives good stats

[honest basin]

Think armory is fucked bc I only have 600 haste and I know that's less than 2% and I'm p sure I have 19% vers unbuffed

[grand tapir]

Is there a reason to not macro shadow blades with flagellation?

[dusk stone]

i would almost take the myth ring

[tidal marsh]

Yeh

[dusk stone]

thats actually a bis ring in disguise

[tidal marsh]

The reason is that you don't press them at the same time

[honest basin]

Bc flag is cast before blades and flag is on the gcd. Blades isn't cast until your first secret technique in cds

P sure we have a command abt macros

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[long yarrow]

But it's not a myth ring tho is it

[dusk stone]

well generally two things go together

[long yarrow]

691 is hc no?

[dusk stone]

new sub rogues macroing flag and blades and them complaining about low damage

[novel quail]

Sup dogs, just got heroic netherprism. Not sure if we macro this to shadowblades? I

[dusk stone]

the radiant necromancers band

[long yarrow]

Oh that one

[dusk stone]

im using one too and i couldnt get the boe rings from the raid to sim higher

[long yarrow]

Yh that one's pretty good but dude already has it

So I think myth pants better

[wheat sentinel]

Did I miss something, how?

[honest basin]

Yeah macro it to blades

[dusk stone]

crippling poison

70% slow

[grand tapir]

😀 thanks just messing around while sin is still messed up

[wheat sentinel]

Oh I thought you meant wound and was lost

[honest basin]

Welcome to the fun dagger spec

Don't tell whispyr I said that

[dusk stone]

you want to use crippling in 1st/2nd split and wound on last mini boss

[long yarrow]

London spec

[tidal marsh]

@ WhIsPyr did u see what the helly this guy said!!!!!!!

[dusk stone]

from what i hear sin is only like 5% bugged in keys

correct my ignorance is false though

[honest basin]

It's still fine I keys cuz caustic is a much smaller part of your DPS in keys

A lot of your singular focus damage in keys comes from CT and bleeds in general rather than the feedback loop of caustic spatter

So not nearly as big of a deal if you're playing bleed build

[grand tapir]

Haha well also fatigue from 3 seasons of playing around mark

[honest basin]

If you're playing a kb build you're cooked

[honest basin]

Amen deathstalker 's mark can eat me

That shit SUCKS

[dusk stone]

sub is crazy though

[long yarrow]

Deathstalker can suck it in general tbh

I really don't like it

[dusk stone]

i had 20mil overall going into 1st boss fg just because cd timings were good

[grand tapir]

Yea I’m just tired of it plus it will be fun to tricks the healer for an hour

[dusk stone]

thats also great qol

[long yarrow]

Infinite trick is also crazy yeah

[honest basin]

It feels like you've ascended when you start to scrape that 10milly overall

[dusk stone]

it would have been north of 10 if we didnt brick it

[long yarrow]

But in general I just think trickster is more fun to play because you don't need to keep count of annoying passives like deathstalker

And eviscerate hits harder

That's just fun

[grand tapir]

So the two 90 sec cds just desync normally

[dusk stone]

wdym

[honest basin]

Yeah had the other two DPS in my flood been slightly more competent I'd have broken 10 as well. Probs about 30 seconds off of holding strong at 10m x.x

[long yarrow]

If Fatebound wasn't unplayable dog I'd genuinely play that over deathstalker on assa

[dusk stone]

you mean flag and blades being desync'd by 2 seconds?

[grand tapir]

Shadow blades and flag

So it’s close just not macro close

[honest basin]

Imo I think the direction of fatebound being St vs deathstalker being cleave is how hero talents should be

One more st oriented the other ape

[dusk stone]

its only desync'd in the sense that they aren't pressed together

[honest basin]

AOE*

[grand tapir]

Ok thx

[dusk stone]

also

[honest basin]

But fb unplayable in AOE and deathstalker just unplayable

[dusk stone]

have a seperate keybind for prism

because you dont always send prism with blades

[long yarrow]

Fr

[grand tapir]

Just lily so far but maybe get prism tonight on reclear

[shrewd lantern]

nah assa clearly bugged 30% in keys

some m+ streamer made a title

why would they lie

[long yarrow]

Wow content creatore lying? nah

[honest basin]

I mean if it's in the title he literally isn't allowed to lie about it

That's just how the internet works

[dusk stone]

should tell said streamer to play sub, it's 30% bugged in the opposite direction

[restive elk]

so when do i use evis instead of black powder?

[dusk stone]

4 targets

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[restive elk]

lmao ive been doing evis everytime thanks

[long yarrow]

bp got hella buffed for no reason

Spell is mega overtuned

[dusk stone]

it was buffed 11% is all

[long yarrow]

I think it got buffed twice no? Or am I misremembering?

[dusk stone]

misremembering

only once

[long yarrow]

Ah oke

[dusk stone]

evis is just undertuned is all

[hazy breach]

I mean ye only once for this patch

But its been buffed a lot previously in tww too

[long yarrow]

Yeah that's what I meant

I remember it being buffed in s2 becasue "trickster doesn't use it"

[astral axle]

sin unplayable unforch

[pure pollen]

soo my character is fairly new and i just acquired the lily trinket, i now have prism at raidfinder which i had macro'd to blades + lily. what do i do chat

[sullen hare]

welcome to hell!

[dusk stone]

get pacemaker

lily is ok but your burst is less without a passive for it

[sullen hare]

to copy what eleem has said many times:
lily on pull, lily on 90s and then prism on 180, lily again on 270

the prism will be fully stacked at 180 seconds (3:00)

[pure pollen]

makes sense, appreciate you

[honest saddle]

anyone know the spell id for the sub 4pc buff

[hazy breach]

There isnt one

[honest saddle]

you sure it isnt 1236405

[hazy breach]

Its just escalating blade

Just like coup

[honest saddle]

https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/spell=1236405/rogue-trickster-11-2-class-set-4pc

[hazy breach]

I mean maybe that works, but just having the regular escalating blades works

[foggy egret]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[crimson dagger]

I see a lot of sub rogues running netherprism and araz instead of nether prism and antenna. Is Araz's ritual forge better? id hate to take antenna from a guildie just to replace it in the future

[dusty totem]

Does cold blood empower the entire coup

or only first tick?

[twilit phoenix]

entire coup

[twilit phoenix]

oh wait mb

i thought I read that as sectech

not sure about coup actually

mb mb king

[dusty totem]

All good mate

[astral axle]

I mean we wanna CB SecTech anyway

[warm marlin]

About equal assuming you’re using both on cd, forge prism better if there’s downtime

Personally think forge prism is more useful overall (much better on dimmy for sure)

[brittle helm]

In the opener, I know ideally we could blood our second sectec—if I’m not able to get that second one off cd within my first shadowdance, am I just missing haste perhaps? I’m usually getting it off first global after pressing sd for the second time, but then there’s only 3 macabre stacks as opposed to like 6 if I could fit in the first dance.

[astral axle]

It wouldnt be a haste issue, it'd be a how you're spending each GCD issue

And

more importantly, second sectech in first dance isn't guaranteed. kinda bout getting lucky (or pre-stacking disorienting strikes)

[brittle helm]

Okay! I feel like I’m following it exactly but I’ll take a closer look.

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[astral axle]

You have to get a little lucky to get sectech 1 and 2 in the first dance. it helps if you have pre-disorienting strikes

[obtuse dirge]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[astral axle]

It is nice when it happens but it won't kill your damage if both sectech are not in your first dance.

[soft kayak]

is Unseen blade a 100% hit?

the normal one not the 35% things from tierset

[pulsar hemlock]

What's the default spell queue, 200 or 250?

[dusty totem]

400?

[swift cloak]

how does rogue handle araz forge and prism ? we sent prism at 9 stacks and use forge every second blades ?

[warm marlin]

its 100% if you have a guaranteed proc from the 20s timer or from sectec

[little sierra]

started to use black powder on 4 targets and more than eviscerate and my damage dropped really bad

[hallow night]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/a8qtrmFmfijivvjxiXpqjS
Why is a 6/6 myth Ritual forge simming 100k dps below 6/6 myth pacemaker? I'm simming latest version so it should be using double on-use correctly

[dusty totem]

Yeah first prism u only have 9 stacks but at 5 min u should have 18

[warm marlin]

technically its also 100% from thousand procs, but those are random

[dusty totem]

so 0:00 forge 1:30 prism 3:00 forge 4:30 prism

[zinc juniper]

hi guys ,, hope you doing well

[dusty totem]

U are proably just messing up rota because u are doing something new

U still need to spend coup and stuff

for bp find weekness is also very strong

[zinc juniper]

any well known content creator or soruce for Noob rouges wich wanna start ?

[dusty totem]

Wowhead guide is good

[hallow night]

Check out shindigg

If you need a video to watch

[dusty totem]

Shindigg and whispyr are both good

[stone goblet]

hey lads just double checking as this info was given to me, but sub's bis trinkets is double on use?

araz with prism?

[onyx smelt]

On most real life situations yes

[stone goblet]

despair

[onyx smelt]

Antenna and other stat trinkets is still really good, double on use just amplifies Sub's strenghts

[hallow night]

It's simming like ass for me

but I have myth pacemaker which is rare

like 100k dps behind pacemaker

[dusty totem]

Well tbh double on use might go out fashion

It is mostly used because we think that it will be better than it sims because there is downtime in m+

And so we have strong cooldowns everytime

[dusty totem]

Yeah for me in dslice it is simming simmilar to 14 ilvl worse antenna

[lilac stag]

Because you’re simming dslice and it’s not going to optimize like you can over an entire key

It’s a snapshot of a key

[dusty totem]

Might also be because it makes ur on pull cooldown use stronger but in dslice this is st boss

[celest ice]

okay two questions in M+ 1: Do we use Strike (bs as first global)as generator inside dance regardless of target count? 2: Do we use BP in place of EVIS also inside dance at 4+ targets?

[dusk stone]

because its worse

it turns out losing ton of passive stat isn't a good thing and sitting on a trinket half the time is also bad

[lilac stag]

Stop giving wrong information every day you’re in here

[dusty totem]

It should be possible to set up a sim showing it be better if it is better tho

Maybe a route sim

idk

[swift tinsel]

not exactly, with how flexible it is

route sims don't account for time

which is very important

[graceful terrace]

should i be holding symbols and dance at 30 secs on flag in M+?

[lilac stag]

dslice isn’t going account for flexibility with prison and a second on use or TFD getting resets

[hazy breach]

I mean with double on-use there is no flexibility with prism

[lilac stag]

There is some. You’re not always shooting it at 9 or 18 in keys

[dusty totem]

I was talking more theoretically

[lilac stag]

You’re out of combat at times

[hazy breach]

Ye but youre still using it every other bladesx

[lilac stag]

Correct

[hazy breach]

So the flexibility you'd have with only prism as your on-use is gone

[dusty totem]

Yeah so if u need to hold cds u are losing value that would not be lost with only prism

since u just stack it a bit more then

Yeah i will not be supriesed if everyone swaps off double on use at some point

[lilac stag]

You wipe you can also let it recharge while sending forge again

[dusty totem]

Optimizing for wipes is crazy tho

[brittle helm]

If not guaranteed, is it still normal and okay to just send second sectec right when second dance starts at like 3 macabre stacks?

[lilac stag]

You’re not optimizing for it, it’s just a benefit

Forge and Prism is very fluid in keys.

[dusty gorge]

anybody had the issue where you 2chest a dungeon but it appears as only +1 in game?

[dusty totem]

It is not fluid tho

It is fully locked

U pop every cd and alternate

[brittle helm]

@astral axle

[devout jackal]

Huh

[dusty totem]

Probably update ur addons

[lilac stag]

which is legit the def of fluidity. It goes from one to the next without issue

[dusty totem]

Okay fak this i am done here

[lilac stag]

Instead of dry sending 1-2 sblades because stacking for 18 for boss

[nova cairn]

!prekey

No prekey with sub?

[lilac stag]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[nova cairn]

tyty

[devout jackal]

Put your posions on

[dusk stone]

isn't forge prism just strictly worse for overall

[dusty totem]

Might be might not be

[dusk stone]

the argument i've actually heard for it is that it gives better prio

[lilac stag]

It juices your blades window which is priority.

[dusk stone]

at the cost of a lot of passive stat

2k crit vs 8k agility and the 6k you lose is constant throughout the key

and that's without the passive effect

[lilac stag]

or on higher keys when you’re sending blades nearly every pack?

[dusty totem]

Yeah forge makes ur prism worse

[frail kindle]

so they shot dimensius

[dusty totem]

With antenna u can often stack 8k agility + 10k crit + prism in cds

[placid crown]

Hello. Can someone remind me why it's better to use Blades after the GCD of potion/SoD/Dance/Backstab and not in this GCD ? As the next attack is SecTec, isn't there a risk that the backstab without blades dont give all the combo points ?

[dusk stone]

you can double juice antenna as well for windows sometimes

[astral axle]

Don’t hafta worry too much about your DM stacks. It is about sending the SecTech w/ CB so it is in the juiced flag window with blades and with all the flawless form stacks

[dusk stone]

forge is big number meme haha

[brittle helm]

Got it. Okay. I really do appreciate the help, thank you 🙂

[astral axle]

Have fun

[dusty totem]

Only think with not playing forge is if u need big dmg cds and ur prism is not lined up forge is very nice to have

[north radish]

Is dungeon slice a reasonable sim for M+?

[dusty totem]

Yes

[dusk stone]

its fine yeah

i dont think patchwerk or dslice changes gear though

[swift tinsel]

it can emphasize different stats

[dusk stone]

wdym

[swift tinsel]

i.e. the value of crit in st vs aoe

[dusk stone]

crit is simming the highest for me but i get no upgrades from it in slice yeah

[swift tinsel]

with respect to talents

[potent nimbus]

since i dont feel like plaiyng sin again on soul hunters reclear, do u care about putitng 2 or 3 ruptures on the other mobs as sub or just keep rupture on main target then do st rotation?

[swift tinsel]

its good to have ruptures out

RS makes it easy to maintain

[dusk stone]

it was actually really weird, a week ago the crit ring from raid was like 100k upgrade

i was wondering why this mast/vers ring is somehow bis now

[swift tinsel]

because your gear presumably changed

[dusk stone]

maybe i simmed two different things

[cloud perch]

+10 hoa that normal for that kind of stats ?

[dusk stone]

i moved some gems around is all

maybe i was on vers pot at the time too maybe

[swift tinsel]

changing stats shifted their relative value

imagine

[potent nimbus]

so ideally u just do 1 rupture and cleave 2 and forget aobut it basically?

[dusk stone]

yeah but it was a lot :/

[hexed sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/stat-kd-check-statistics-gif-12319870509042338177

Need more speed tbh

[warm marlin]

did anyone already post the updated spirit visuals in here

[swift tinsel]

the hwhat

spirit visuals?

[warm marlin]

for saladman

[swift tinsel]

ohh

[warm marlin]

much easier to see

[swift tinsel]

got my misplaced hopes up

[dusk stone]

haptics you were saying crit is better ST?

and is less favored than what mastery in keys?

[swift tinsel]

I did not say that

[dusk stone]

clarify then?

[lilac stag]

what’s there to clarify?

[dusk stone]

im confused if he's saying crit is better in ST or AoE

[swift tinsel]

more crit in aoe = more fw

[dusk stone]

i see yeah that would make sense

[celest ice]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hallow night]

What causes you to throw 2 unseen blades in 1 global sometimes?

[swift tinsel]

2pc

[hallow night]

It's not consistent

[swift tinsel]

35% chance

[hallow night]

Oh that makes sense I forgot about 2p

If I munch 0 procs I can sometimes get an enormous amount of coups in the opener

I'm not sure if that coup optimization applies in aoe situations where you have enough targets that a shuriken storm would generate 7 combo points

[swift tinsel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

"...or with 4+ targets"

[hallow night]

Oh it says 4+ targets

I started optimizing for that a lot more and somtimes I just get a crazy amount of coups in keys

[rocky turret]

is there a way to have a weakaura showing me when i unseen blade is procable?

[hallow night]

I don't think so

You just gotta feel it out

[dusk stone]

is it to track fazed or?

[swift tinsel]

LE has an estimator

https://wago.io/search/imports/wow/all?q=unseen%2Bblade

there's a few

[rocky turret]

ill give that a check thanks

[stoic token]

this luck is crazy for a 7 day old character... although jewelry is still shit

[hallow night]

In theory if you have coup ready and are going to go into normal dance/sod window is it worth dance/sod > sec tec (from 7 combo) > storm > coup > storm > coup > eviscerate > shadow strike > evis?

[swift tinsel]

you don't want to storm more than once

[hallow night]

I know but sometimes you don't have enough shadow techniques

is it better to auto attack to farm some before dance?

[swift tinsel]

it helps

[hallow night]

Like I've been in situations with 4 targets and it's not enough targets to get a shadowcraft refresh unless I went into dance with SHT stacks

[dusk stone]

have it been simmed in the apl at all if running TR to storm once in 2nd dance

instead of stab

[alpine wraith]

it was found to be a gain to also storm in normal dances in between coups if at least 4 targets are up

[dusk stone]

are we not storming in normal dances between coups for aoe?

feels like we should always do that

[swift tinsel]

see 4+ targets in !coup

[alpine wraith]

before it was not found now it is at 4 targets it is neutral becomes better at 6

[dusk stone]

the 2nd dance is where we lose FW sometimes if storm doesn't crit but idk its already 50/50 and an L to not take finality

[stoic token]

how long does supercharge combo points last. do i need to worry about them falling off?

[swift tinsel]

forever

[dusk stone]

also there's the issue that storm is a gap closer sometimes where you have to move out of aoe so its less too

[stoic token]

cool so before a dungeon or boss just press sod once and im good to go

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[hazy breach]

Yeah, when you start a key or pull a raid boss it resets down to 2 supercharged points, regardless of how many you had before

[swift tinsel]

you can have at most 2 charged cp going in

[hazy breach]

But the duration is infinite

[alpine wraith]

yea only place you can go rabid with pre pull shit is HM taza

where you go full degen and 18 stack prism pre disorient and 7 supercharger

[dusk stone]

thats funny

[stoic token]

lol for that 1st pack that dies in 10 seconds

[alpine wraith]

you do for bosses

[hazy breach]

Kill mailboss before any packages come out for example

Pretty neat

[swift tinsel]

[nova cairn]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dEpKdggSuwnQ53DRZiyMQd I am really surprised how much vers my sim is wanting

[dusk stone]

get rid of those shoulders asap

[nova cairn]

For the err loom ones?

[swift tinsel]

ye

[dusk stone]

any, gloves are the better choices for set bonus

[swift tinsel]

ideally

[nova cairn]

yeye

[swift tinsel]

assuming you're swapping from OL

?

[nova cairn]

I am

[swift tinsel]

ah makes sense

[nova cairn]

Also

I sim the ring

It doesn't wanna swap off to mastery

[dusk stone]

whats your stat spread

[nova cairn]

Kinda crazy

[swift tinsel]

yeah its been whittling away at mastery in favor of crit/vers

[dusk stone]

100 / 25 / 25 / 1 for me

[nova cairn]

100% mastery?

[swift tinsel]

yeah 90-100% is pretty normal for relatively 'bis' setup

[nova cairn]

Also what belt thing is your sim favouring?

[topaz venture]

offhand craft at 720 was troll tho lowkey

[dusk stone]

no pot on atm

[nova cairn]

Ahh okay I'm not that far off then

[neon frigate]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[topaz venture]

are we all using vers flasks

[swift tinsel]

I have a mastery/vers belt so I tossed DISC

[topaz venture]

or is that somethung to sim

[nova cairn]

Mine was with crit pot

[dusk stone]

theoretically i think we should be favoring crit at around 100 mastery

but sims been weird for me

[devout jackal]

i have cooked one fo the most phenominal vaults of all time

[neon frigate]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[devout jackal]

ignore the heroic raid

[dusk stone]

okay haptics was correct

[swift tinsel]

honestly just replacing some of your haste gear with mastery+crit/vers will set you up nicely

[dusk stone]

we figured it out

entropy is 30k dps increase in keys

crit for sure sims higher in aoe

[warm marlin]

similar gear, a bit more mast than crit

[swift tinsel]

hey that's almost me!

[blissful scroll]

How cooked am I for getting annoyed with Ring drops and just crafting one? Id been rocking a delve belt ring since the first week.

[swift tinsel]

that's where I'd put my Antenna, if I had one!

[warm marlin]

antenna getting the gat this week for forge

[lilac stag]

havent you heard, forge is bad

[dusk stone]

i was wondering what was going on with my crit

[swift tinsel]

hoping we get there this week so I can start not-getting myth track in vault

(reverse psychology)

[celest ice]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[scenic yarrow]

Am I losing damage if i run TFD but miss the last global for CBsectec and do it in the next dance window

[warm marlin]

im still going to play antenna on nexus

[swift tinsel]

I've managed hero track trinkets but not the good one from m+ lol

[warm marlin]

our platform damage was already fine i dont need forge

[dusk stone]

apparently we need a crit/mast ring for keys but not raid

[nova cairn]

Also I need new trinkets

tese are ass

[dusk stone]

0.4% difference though

[swift tinsel]

"we"

[little sierra]

do i lose damage if i macro backstab into shadow dance?

[dusk stone]

well im going off the wowhead article too right

plexus ring is listed as bis

[brisk onyx]

not really i think

[swift tinsel]

Bis is relative

[dusk stone]

for sure but with more optimal stat spread its becomes less true maybe

[swift tinsel]

and there are multiple gear combos that could fall into that category

they sim within margin of error of each other

[dusk stone]

whats yours look like?

[blissful scroll]

Is this meme or is it just better to run Antenna/Prism

[swift tinsel]

my current gear

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/successful-child-happy-achieve-celebrate-gif-4196048497143094791

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1408999347219202159/4x.avif

that kinda looks like Steve

[stoic token]

how so?

its an m+ alt

[topaz venture]

u said ur jewelry is ass and offhand doesnt matter much

if not at all

[tulip token]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[stoic token]

yea i can get jewelry from m+

[swift tinsel]

honestly fine OH

[stoic token]

i just need it to drop

[swift tinsel]

good stats

[rapid torrent]

I believe yes you lose damage because you don’t always dance on 0 CP (someone smarter than me can answer)

[high eagle]

Does this actually work for you? I'm assuming you are using this for when you are in dance SS > unseen blade RNG or Coup procs and you had the intention to press BP? I just tried this and even though Coup procs, this macro still only casts BP?

[swift tinsel]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[stoic token]

i need the neck from PSF and the ring from dawn and im g2g

[sly shore]

Why the fuck is someone using a macro for coup

It replaces evis automatically

Just seems int

[celest ice]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[long yarrow]

Fellas, is this enough versa?

Feel like I'm a bit short

[plush roost]

Ye its just a robot angle my guy

[neon frigate]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[plush roost]

Im playing 19% rn and it works

[long yarrow]

oki, thanks

[high eagle]

I think i understand their intention. I'm already familiar with just pressing evisc but, I will admit sometimes when I get the double unseen blade proc which gives me Coup sort of "unexpected" i may have already made the decision to press BP in AoE. It seems like a decent macro if it worked for that purpose a lone.

But, it doesn't work for me. so whatever.

[dusk stone]

looks about right

[neon frigate]

I have been trying thistle tea instead of cold blood for m+. But i get better result with CB. How do you stop auto thistle tea?

[long yarrow]

You don't

Shit talent

Use it only if your mastery is very low

[dusk stone]

tea uses itself but afaik it does more aoe

[long yarrow]

The auto trigger completely ruins it for sub

bcs you have low energy reserve

Absolute dog

[dusk stone]

i mean its fine

you get to spam storm/bp outside of cds occasionally

[long yarrow]

Yeah but it's technically always a dps loss and it infuriates me

[dusk stone]

oh for sure

cb just tilts me because its possible to run out of energy in cds

i stopped using it in keys after that happened twice

[neon frigate]

Ok. Yeah it gets activated when no shadow dance is activated

[dusk stone]

macro tea to shadow dance

[long yarrow]

Yeah it activates whenever you go under 30 energy

[dusk stone]

so its used more up front

[long yarrow]

It was an assa "buff"

To reduce buttons on opener

[prime raft]

is there an item i can buy that i can hit to build prism stacks before boss pulls

[long yarrow]

But it just made the talent annoying as hell

[long yarrow]

Gets reset

[prime raft]

on pull?

[long yarrow]

Yep

[prime raft]

in raid?

that is insane

ik it resets before going into M+

[dusk stone]

i know bond was building stuff for ele shaman things last patch

idk if we can do the same for prism

[urban prairie]

Is tea still avaliable in mop classic?

[long yarrow]

Yeh

[urban prairie]

I saw it on the ah but it said restores 0 energy

[prime raft]

lol

[chrome palm]

Hold on guys I need three minutes to stack my trinket

[prime raft]

gotta get there early

[sweet raven]

@leaden prairie congrats on dimensius king

[dusk stone]

it was a beach ball or something bond was using

[long yarrow]

Really? Original thistle works in retail just fine

[leaden prairie]

bro

[long yarrow]

it's just bad bcs it's a battle potion

[neon frigate]

For dawnbreaker is thistle a good choice instead of CB. With CB you have more ST damage

[swift tinsel]

iirc tea consume shares a cd with potion

[sweet raven]

was looking at stream to sleep you guys are insane

[long yarrow]

yup

Hence why it's bad

[swift tinsel]

0/10 not worth

[long yarrow]

But techanically works

[swift tinsel]

ye

[leaden prairie]

tyty

was hard

[sly shore]

This is the most vers I've had on nexus king

[leaden prairie]

im shaking a bit ngl

[long yarrow]

That is quite juicy, damn

[neon frigate]

One question about burst before using flag, you guys auto attack to stack the 14 combopoints?

[long yarrow]

Nah

You have little time to do your opener, your autos get shadow tech during the rotation

You get at least 14 stacks during it

[bleak wind]

is the finality black powder bug still a thing?

[long yarrow]

Which one?

In any case I think finality is bait

I don't talent it anymore

[dusk stone]

so i guess if your optimizing in gear for crit at all there's even less of a reason to run the rotten in keys

[long yarrow]

I think the rotten is still strong

Because of the buff

Better than finality and brew imo

[dusk stone]

for which buff

[long yarrow]

To shadow strike

Or generators in general

But mostly shadow strike

[dusk stone]

last i saw it was simming <1% behind but fuu was saying that there's less of a reason the higher your crit goes

[long yarrow]

Idk, tbh between rotten and brew I think rotten is better

Brew is too undertuned imo

[spice matrix]

did they fix pre disorient?

[dusk stone]

the main thing you gain from more crit is more reliable find weakness from your coup storms

[long yarrow]

yeah

Which is why getting crit is good

But getting all find weakness on a storm guaranteed is also good

[dusk stone]

yeah its just what you lose to get that

[long yarrow]

I don't think brew offers anything like that in terms of offer

[dusk stone]

storm by itself has 50% chance to crit

[rocky thorn]

is there a command for forge+prism best use?

[long yarrow]

You're right but I don't know what else to talent

I think brew is even worse

[dusk stone]

finality

[long yarrow]

You mean one point of finality

[dusk stone]

i was running TR for most of the early early patch

[long yarrow]

That's possible

[dusk stone]

and i got talked out of it

[plush roost]

@warm marlin I have concocted a macro that does what you were suggesting but also fuctions as coldblood+sectec while in dance to save a keybind

5head?

[light imp]

in the case of getting hero track signet vs a 671 house of cards, it sims as a small upgrade on M+. would that be used every other CDs or hold cds and use every 2m

[dusk stone]

every other cd

and try and get a lily

[latent marten]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[warm marlin]

too 5head for me

is it not going to cast dance, enter dance, and then cast cb instead of backstab though

[plush roost]

nop

It checks all 4 inputs, and does what it can as "stance 0"

since stance 2 is listed as the other 2, it skips them

should add /cast [stance:0] Symbols of Death
tho

been playing around with it, the only thing that can make it activate CB is if you're mashing it which generally you wont be doing since you're waiting for your gcd to be unlocked anyway

[unkempt drum]

The rotation guide says to only use black powder in 4+ targets which means that any fewer than that you revert to technique and eviscerate/coup, right? Even in Dance

So the single target rotation essentially works up to 3 targets

[swift tinsel]

pretty much

[unkempt drum]

From your username you seem like the expert, I trust you

[swift tinsel]

[warm depot]

@vale pine is there a way to sim for prism + forge or prism + antenna?

i have a myth antenna in vault just no idea if its functionally better than hero forge + prism

[signal moth]

what are most of your lots alts? I am thinking of gearing an alt and cant really decide between mage/hunter but it feels weird picking something completely dif lol

[lucid jackal]

What

A normal sim will do this

[unkempt drum]

I play rogue and brewmaster right now

[signal moth]

yh my old main was a monk so im not feeling it lol

[unkempt drum]

In Top Gear you can manually add pieces you don't have at the top

[warm depot]

i thought the sim doesnt account for 2x on use?

[plush roost]

its been updated to function with araz/prism

[warm depot]

ahh ok

thank u

[wheat sentinel]

so for m+ is champ track prism + araz still pmuch the best option?

[long yarrow]

yep

I guess it also depends what else you got

[earnest canyon]

according to subcreation, logic gate: apha is our bis ring but its crit/mastery. is there a specific reason its showing that?

[long yarrow]

Crit is good

That's pretty much it

It's good to have some of it

[wheat sentinel]

not much for sub, just outlaw stuff.

[long yarrow]

Ah, then yea

[wheat sentinel]

I do have a mythic empowered crystal sitting in vault tho

if that's anything.

[long yarrow]

Pretty decent trinket

But I think it underperform against those 2

[wheat sentinel]

Figures.

[long yarrow]

Do sim it tho

I am not too sure

[craggy plover]

is there anyone that can look at my logs, or tell me wtf im doing wrong in sub rn.

[willow pawn]

got haste vers mythic dagger in vault T.T

i guess we take

[wary jasper]

Should i cry? Have a Champ lily rn with an hero antena

[lavish rose]

!netherprism

[prime raft]

i got myth gene slicer and prism in my vault took the prism

[wheat sentinel]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[strange chasm]

With the thing buffing only weapon enchants does it work with all weapon enchants?

[frail night]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[storm field]

pretty new to the game, how big of a damage difference is it getting the tier set for sub rouge?

[bleak night]

bigly

[ionic tinsel]

Is alcaras back at it?

[spice matrix]

grats Guy

[glad rampart]

i dunno why you guys using leeching instead of avo

its grief + cringe af

[spice matrix]

@lucid jackal confirm or deny, they fixed predisorient

[lucid jackal]

Uh idk

I think so

Like

Idk if they fixed it

I dont think they did

We killed it in 2 attempts I didnt get a chance to on either pull

[spice matrix]

ggs

[lucid jackal]

My vaults have ruined my tier

[spice matrix]

im sorry

we are cursed too

[lucid jackal]

Dude look at my vaults this tier

[spice matrix]

Ive seen them lol

[lucid jackal]

Look at this

[warm marlin]

unless im that lucky its not fixed

[lucid jackal]

Tell me how I'm suppose to enjoy this game when these are my vaults

fucking 714 ilvl on a final boss 500 weeks in

normal prism

CBA

[spice matrix]

you cant enjoy

[lucid jackal]

Tilted as fuck

[spice matrix]

we havent seen a forge

[warm marlin]

shh lashga

its ok

[winter ice]

opening vault as outlaw spec???

[lucid jackal]

On bosses it gives u less loot

Like

Only 1 1hander in raid vault

vs 2 daggers

[winter ice]

i still dont have dagger 3rd week killing loom

ur also the outlaw guy so

[solid harbor]

Random question - anyone getting issues with their sim? My sims on Sub and Sin are suggesting that my M+ specs are 700k better dps on ST fights? finding that strange today. when it was a very different result 2 days ago.

[warm marlin]

did you add raid buffs or something

[prime raft]

its ok maybe next week

[willow pawn]

what do you guys think

dagger angle?

[warm marlin]

shoulders kinda good no

[willow pawn]

yah but its from loom

[solid harbor]

nah - same sims i always run 🙁

[warm marlin]

so is the (good) dagger

[prime raft]

what is ideal belt for us after delve nerf

[lucid jackal]

well we didn't reclear

so next vault is gaurenteed to be bad 👍

[warm marlin]

this will be the best vault of the season for u ngl

and by best i mean 707 good ring?

[strange chasm]

ye dim got nuked even more than this am

lol

[lucid jackal]

boots boots bracers

🖕

[warm marlin]

I was gonna check your loot and flame you for being geared anyway but damn...

bros best option was to dump gilded into a belt

[lucid jackal]

normal prism, heroic forge, no autmn

Literally quitting the game

[warm marlin]

mythic dh boots tho

[lucid jackal]

I have like

Full mythic tier now

And DH boots

[plush roost]

shoulders are sub BiS, idk if u plan on playing assa later in the tier but shoulders are a good piece for now.

Loom dagger is better and nexus dagger is better for assa anyway

[lucid jackal]

and thats like, it

LOl

But taking 2 dungeon vaults has put me behind so much gilded

Gonna be like 2 weeks behind gilded achivement

[plush roost]

gg

[lucid jackal]

just tilted af

zzz

[long yarrow]

Question

[willow pawn]

i got mythic tier already

so im kinda stumped

dagger showing amuch bigger upgrade for sims

[long yarrow]

Isn't better to get one loom dagger and one king dagger just for the tiny extra crit?

[willow pawn]

raiding now

so we will see

if dagger drops

[plush roost]

Well if you want immediate power dagger is the play

i suppose

[long yarrow]

Ah ic

[plush roost]

if u dont have a 723 dagger

[long yarrow]

Yeah in that case

[plush roost]

ur just getting crest fucked so rip

[long yarrow]

Cuz while crit is not bis stat it's good to have like 25

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z-L7EtDTAk4

thumbs up

[gaunt bluff]

does someone know if shadow dance makes aggro work like if i vanished?

sometimes in ara kara doing the normal first boss strat of standing inbetween add and boss so it fixates on top of me, i noticed when i shadow dance the spider might fixate the tank and go through me

[swift tinsel]

dance gives you a massive threat drop

and negative modifier

[gaunt bluff]

the only constant is rogues so far for whenever it happens (me, or when i play with one)

[frail night]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[gaunt bluff]

yeah i guess gotta be ready to react with a fat kidney from now on

btw i have another question for something thats i guess a missplay but whats the best way to minimise the loss

if i send a coup out of any cds

and then i dont have energy for the tier set 6+ cp coup

do i send a 2-4 cp coup or do i keep using builders

[swift tinsel]

you send with as many cp as you have

[tribal blade]

you just send the 2nd coup on w/e CPs you can

if it's just 1, then that's fine

[gaunt bluff]

thanks

[swift tinsel]

yeah its more important to just get the cast off

[tribal blade]

1 CP still is a 6 CP coup

[stable plume]

Sims say Unyielding + Lily is better than Astral antenna for me. How do you time double on use?

[tepid trellis]

mine has been okay, even better when i loot mythic prism in vault in 3 hours

[warm marlin]

it WILL drop from frac this time

i am sure of it

[tribal blade]

took these from vault

was kinda sad because there were M+ shoulders with leech on em

but haste/vers

[short radish]

acutally good take from kira

[tribal blade]

oh yeah

it's not even close in comparison

[gaunt bluff]

did u happen to watch the whole stream?

how come hunters are so high

[tribal blade]

nah i didn't

[gaunt bluff]

especially bm

[tribal blade]

hunters are doing big dam

big dam= key goes faster

[short radish]

what classes are in comparison for lowest utility with rogue

warriors?

[tribal blade]

warrs are pretty low too yeah

[warm marlin]

it was already topping in high keys and they randomly buffed it this week

[short radish]

hunters have a decent amount right

[tribal blade]

it doesn't feel fair

[short radish]

it really doesnt

[tribal blade]

there's a big imbalance

[short radish]

give us aoe stun back

[gaunt bluff]

wdym man kidneying a sentry in ara kara for 7 seconds is the best utility u will have

[tribal blade]

there used to be the entire "hybrid tax" argument, but that's irrelevant now

[gaunt bluff]

🔥

[viral phoenix]

if you get coup outside of dance and flag is say 25 seconds away would you hold coup or send it?

[tribal blade]

yeah and other people can stun it for 5 seconds

but do way more other things

plus kidney isn't really a 8 second stun unless you do it first global in a pull

it gets DR'd to hell

[short radish]

take kidney stun off the DR

make single target stuns

not DR with aoe stuns

[tribal blade]

TRUE

[open vortex]

Nah

Bring back aoe kidney

[tribal blade]

then kidney suddenly becomes really good utility

[open vortex]

It's only fair

[short radish]

yeah i'll also take aoe kidney

[tribal blade]

aoe kidney would work too

[short radish]

but honestly with the amount of aoe stuns this game has

single target stuns shouldnt be on the DR in pve at least

like how the fuck they expect anyone to keep track

or i suppose its just

[tribal blade]

i think the argument would be you could potentially lock down 1 mob forever

[short radish]

assume everything has always been stun dr'd

yeah but like who cares

[tribal blade]

lol true

[short radish]

youre locking all teh mobs down forever

anyway

???

[tribal blade]

yeah vdh and boomy combo was a thing

[short radish]

when do mobs get to play the game in high keys

[tribal blade]

so it's fair

i dunno with blizz

aOe kIdNeY iS tOo sTrOnG

and then vdh happens

and boomy happens

[gaunt bluff]

tbh best feeling part about our kit besides dmg in dungeons imo feels like its the tankiness

legit impossible to die on this class

unless a whole lot of shit is happening at the same time

[short radish]

it just really solidifys my theory that the blizzard devs are now composed of ex players who were ganked by rogues throughout vanilla

and are just taking it out on us

probably warriors as well

[tribal blade]

lol trueeee

[short radish]

like aint no way you let 2 classes be this garbage in m+ for this long

i know they dont balance around m+ much

[tribal blade]

it just sucks to see rogue doing really good dam and performing well in keys

[short radish]

but the inbalance is absolutely crazy

[tribal blade]

but no raid buff

no utility

gg