subtlety

[warm marlin]

you are doing it at the correct times just overestimating flag's cooldown when you hit the platform

but back to the original thing u just storm rupture the titan, storm rupture the caster maybe, storm bp until flag up

[tepid trellis]

I had autumn what are these mortal problems

[serene elk]

crying that i dont have holy pala

[serene elk]

another question on this

Even if coup is rdy i should be bping?

And not stack up shadow tech or w/e the combo point thingy

shadow tech

[warm marlin]

there are 6 mobs so you only lose 1sht per storm at most

and get a full finisher

if coup isnt ready i would prob be eviscerating with my raid team's damage (for titan prio), not sure what yours looks like

[serene elk]

well i was like rupturing the titan pm every time i think

if am at 2 stacks of SD when i just land on platform, should i just rip one out for the spam?

[prisma herald]

Without Autumn, its around 20seconds until Flag is ready when arriving at adds platform, how many seconds do you have usually when getting there?

[warm marlin]

are you not dancing the guy + dragon at all before add platform

ive never had 2 charges when landing

[tepid trellis]

Like 6-10 depending on how good i was at sending ot on cd

[ember hound]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[prisma herald]

ah ok, would be nice to get autumn for next raid, will ask my pala

[prisma herald]

sometimes I don't, I save it for add platform

probably should send one SOD+SD

[serene elk]

Probably i did

OR was dry from before

As i said i had 2 days to learn sub, last time played it in antorus with DFA, since it got removed i ditched sub

But asked that question to know if i should like giga hold the charges or now for platform

[warm marlin]

if you need more platform damage you should be able to hold a charge and dance -> flag 2x dance

[serene elk]

Soo I rlly dont know/remember much of specifics cuz am trying not to die

Guild has 100 pulls on me, and I kinda focus on mechanics more

[light island]

just from taking a quick glance at outlaw and sub, sub seems a LOT more complicated (assuming you use a weakaura for roll the bones and keep it rolling) - anyone that played both specs and can attest to this?

gotta lock in one of them tonight to gear up

[hazy breach]

Sub is more unintuitive, but outlaw is usually considered harder

[light island]

yea i guess the unintuitive part makes it feel like a way higher floor than outlaw when i try following simple rotations on target dummies

[slow gorge]

in dj /aoe we never back stab when no sahdow strike?

[lucid jackal]

Sub is easy when u learn what ur doing

But apparently its very hard to learn what to do with it

[light island]

im gonna be honest im a healer main and this would be my first blaster dps i would go past like 3.3 with so i want the best possible one for m+ and raid since this is like the first season im super enjoying both, and sub seems to blast in both types of content like insane

[spring pumice]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tNDZkj4RVJT1z3GA?fight=34&type=damage-done&source=3 does this look like a decent dmg breakdown or is there something i should be doing better?

[lucid jackal]

as your first dps? good luck lol

[sick jackal]

for floodgate i would have had less on rupture and could have pressed more black powder

[slow gorge]

is it normal to have "only" ~18 to 20m dps at burst with 5 target? i see videos of people doing massive dps and idk if i do some shitty things but likes im 710 ilevel

[sick jackal]

the packs are usually too big to rupture everything especially in lower keys they intend to die a lot

[lucid jackal]

ilvl isnt everything

its about like

weapons, trinkets

and then ofc playing

[spring pumice]

ah alright, yeah i did try to focus on rupturing more since i noticed ive been slacking a bit on it sometimes, maybe i overcompensated

cheers!

[timber carbon]

should i bind my netherprism to shadowblades or is it better to use it on my own

[slow gorge]

ofc i know thats why im wondering if i do shit xdd

[light island]

like i said not first dps lol, just first one i would need to learn post basic rotations to get past 3.3

[lucid jackal]

oh misread

[sick jackal]

rupture isnt as important as it used to be i would say for flood open with strike - flag rupture 3 times to ramp( with storm) then blades nuke btw

i checked your casts you blades wayy too early you usually want to flag first

[spring pumice]

yeah i think i messed in the opener iirc fat fingered blades

[brisk thunder]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[spring pumice]

changed some binds around still getting used to em lol

[sick jackal]

happens dw

[spring pumice]

but i dont do triple rupture inside flag and then blades

[winter ice]

Frost dk screamin ur name rn

[spring pumice]

usually just the usual flag rupture sd/symbols backstab into blades sectec

but i guess the ruptures help stacking too anyway

[tepid trellis]

Its fine

[sick jackal]

not sure how big this is but i saw casual doing it the other day and ngl makes sense, i think flag is 24 secs and blades is 15 double dance is 16 so we can use like 4-5 gcds for rupturing on aoe

[dusk stone]

Is there some reason i cant see non damaging abilities on wcl timelines?

[hazy breach]

Are you on the damage page

And not the cast page

[dusk stone]

I was checking someones log and couldnt see dance / symbols

Checking

No, and when i reloaded casts it just gets stuck

[timber carbon]

do yall macro netherprism to shadowblades?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[kind river]

think outlaw is easier to learn than sub? or am I going to get owned

I wanna pick it up for the stupid council boss

[lucid jackal]

Uh

No

[mental briar]

!macro

[kind river]

that's not encouraging

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lucid jackal]

I think if u dont play outlaw, you shouldnt play outlaw for a boss like that

[kind river]

well I learned sub specifically for this raid, it didn't seem so bad

granted I'm playing a lot of sub even now

[lucid jackal]

then just send sub

[kind river]

to immerse myself

[lucid jackal]

Its good on taht boss

[random comet]

Sub seemed fine on that fight tbh

[kind river]

when I say learn outlaw, I don't mean like - I'm gonna spec outlaw and just go in raw

[random comet]

As a usual outlaw main sub felt pretty close, far better than when I tried assass

[kind river]

I would spend some time to learn it, starting now

[dusk stone]

You dont judge sub based off of dmg breakdown its more about doing the rotation correctly for the most part your timeline looked fine. You messed up at the start but corrected it.

All i could see from laggy phone was using coup before sectec and no storm between coups

[hazy breach]

Sure outlaw is better, but a comfortable sub is gonna be more valueable than a clueless outlaw

[kind river]

my guild won't be at that boss anytime soon

[hazy breach]

And damage doesn matter that much on the fight

[kind river]

well thats what I was trying to gauge is how long it takes to "know" that spec

I'm not the best sub player in the world but I get it, it really clicks with me now

[mental briar]

yo , from how many targets do I use the black powder ? 3 / 5 ?

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[spring pumice]

Yea the storm between coups i tend to forget a lot, but is it not ok to say coup first then sectec (if its still on like a 10 sec cd) so you still get the supercharged cp?

[dusk stone]

No

Because target needs to be fazed

Or you lose coups big value

[hazy breach]

If you have sectech ready, dont cast coup

[spring pumice]

Ahh alright, i was just thinking about supercharged combo point but that makes sense

[hazy breach]

You should always be supercharging sectech

Besides that it literally doesnt matter

[spring pumice]

Yeah but thats why i was sometimes coup -> sectec -> couping since you have 2 finishers for supercharger no?

[dusk stone]

Ive never understood why we always charge sectec. It does like 1mil, do the other 2 hits do it again?

[hazy breach]

?

Well yeah the other hits do damage based on combo points spent too

[dusk stone]

So its not just a 1mil finisher

[hazy breach]

I dont understand the question really

Per combo point, sectech is by far our strongest finisher

[light imp]

zorn sectec is by large and far the strongest finisher, so having an extra 2 cp just makes it stronger

[hazy breach]

Thus you always want the +3 combo points from supercharger to hit sectech

[kind river]

sectec hits for a mil? do you just mean like...the bare naked tooltip it tells you?

[spring pumice]

Doesnt supercharger give 1 empowered cp for your next 2 finishers? So i could coup into sectec into coup IF say sectec was on a 7 sec cd and i wouldnt get full value if i sat on sd/symbols any longer on a pack Or did i misunderstand

[kind river]

cuz that ain't for real

[spring pumice]

That what ive sometimes been doing

[hazy breach]

Well yeah thats fine

Just if sectech is ready, you wouldnt coup first

[spring pumice]

Yea

[dusk stone]

Uhm a few things but was mostly wondering if it was doing more damage than listed on tooltip

And it is

[hazy breach]

I have no idea what the tooltip says

[dusk stone]

It does 1mil pmuch

[hazy breach]

Tooltips in wow are famously awful at describing what the abilities does

[dusk stone]

Evis does 700k

So its fairly weird we just use it only with supercharger instead of just on cd

[light imp]

Rip, got a heroic signet on one of my first dungeons back after taking a break, dont suppose its worth the 30s loss of CDs for a 701 signet over a 671 house

[dusk stone]

But if its 3mil

Thats a different story

[kind river]

I've rarely ever had a sectec up that couldn't be paired with a symbols

I'm new to sub so what do I know

[twilit oracle]

How come I am able to burst 40m dps when I just focus single target, compared to in massive Aoe pulls I do aoe rotation and hit like 22m dps?

Just lucky crits or?

[hazy breach]

Youre probably not playing the aoe rotation well

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[twilit oracle]

I do that

[light imp]

wait black powder is only a 4 or more?

even though nimble hits like 7?

[hazy breach]

Nimble hits 7 (or well 8 targets total)

But yes

[light imp]

well shit

[twilit oracle]

I'm talking like, first pull in psf, first pull in floodgate

both peak at like 22m dps

[kind river]

I still feel like I underperform consistently on the first pull of gambit, I don't believe I'm playing it wrong

but also I use a netherprism

[twilit oracle]

and gambit too

[kind river]

which isn't stacked for that first big murloc pull

[twilit oracle]

very low dps compared to when I do full st dps

[opal basalt]

I peaked like 45mil in priory and arakara before

[kind river]

0-2 netherprism stacks vs 9-18 is a huge deal I guess

[opal basalt]

Just gotta look to the details in the right moment

[hazy breach]

I have no logs or any idea of how you play, but doing the aoe rotation well does do more aoe than the ST rotation

[twilit oracle]

I mean it was only 15 seconds into the pull I was at 40m dps

[opal basalt]

Of course

[dusk stone]

Yeah prism kinda sucks for on first pulls but for overall its really good

[twilit oracle]

30seconds in im 35m dps

[opal basalt]

Because that’s when the CB SecTech with fully stacked flag hits

[twilit oracle]

ahh maybe

[twilit oracle]

but then in massive aoe, I don't hit anywhere near that at 15sec in

[dusk stone]

I really want to test CSI as an on use

But i cbf

[kind river]

I def like prism in keys but its a feelsbad moment when you do the first big pull of a dungeon and its empty

[twilit oracle]

I had 11 stacks of prism at the 40m dps

maybe was just giga trinket

[dusk stone]

Just do your aoe right you will be top regardless

[twilit oracle]

nu uh

frost dk blitz me

psf

:(

[dusk stone]

Nah i still beat like 9/10 dks

In 14s

[twilit oracle]

this was a 10

kinda weird cd timings

I get all my cds back when boss has 250m hp

[kind river]

I'd be surprised if mobs in a 10 lived long enough for your full flagellation buff even

[twilit oracle]

no point popping

[kind river]

when you have a dk doing equal damage to you

[twilit oracle]

they do not

[spring pumice]

Ye i hate doing 10s lmao

[tepid trellis]

10s are just about who snipes the shitters first

[kind river]

yeah so you are missing ramp

[twilit oracle]

dang

[kind river]

sub gets stronger towards the end of your flag

[dusk stone]

Just play a lizard if you want to fluff 10s

[twilit oracle]

just doing it for gold

most of the groups i'm top

but that dk was insane

both in the floodgate and psf

[ebon fjord]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

Parses mean nothing in 10s, nothing lives long enough to even get value from the affix and your kit

13s feels like everything has low hp still

[umbral fulcrum]

on soul hunters since there's no amp, do i just alternate lily + prism or should i lily until i have 18 stacks? not sure how having a 90s on use changes it vs forge

[devout jackal]

would you argue that doing only evis keeps the small mobs alive longer and allows funnel to burst down the important mobs though?

BP just going to indiscrimantly destroy all padfunnel

[hazy breach]

I mean the difference between BP and evis is extremly small either way

[jagged rover]

sub is kinda anti funnel by design

make the arcane mages cry

[hazy breach]

Most of your finishers during dance are not evis or BP

Theyre coup+sectech

And ontop of those unseen blade does big prio anyway

So youre getting like 5% prio damage by using eviscerate but losing like 5% aoe damage

So it doesnt really matter

[hazy breach]

A lot of the time you could move away so youre out of range of nimble if you really wanted to

[devout jackal]

fair, in my shitty low weekly keys it just feels kosher to kill the only mobs that can cause wipe

[dusk stone]

Unless its forge prism you use prism + passive

[hazy breach]

Lily is fine

[jagged rover]

I dont understands people double on use hype, I hate playing double on use

give me a sick passive trinket any day

[dusk stone]

Lily.is good enough now?

[hazy breach]

I mean its worse than antenna or forge

[dusk stone]

It wasnt before or thats what was said

[hazy breach]

But its about the same as pacemaker

And other passives

[kind river]

I'd say double on-use is good for the 3 raid fights where you need a big trinket for damage amp

[dusk stone]

Oh really

Its subsitutable for pm

[kind river]

but otherwise a passive is just fine

[hazy breach]

I mean its kinda overblown

Especially since if you have passive+prism your burst is actually noticeably bigger

[kind river]

probably? but it lets you get big netherprism stacks for a burn phase without sandbagging other phases

[hazy breach]

Calling it sandbagging is a bit rich

[dusk stone]

Youre sandbagging other phases by not using 9 prism there as well by that logic

[iron plover]

how tf do you burst for 40m st

i can burst 40m aoe consistently if theres enough ads

never got close to 40m st though

[lucid jackal]

Good gear, 18 prism, lust, potion, shadow technique prestacked

[iron plover]

do you need prism?

ah probably prism then?

i can get 10m pretty consistently with the rest

[kind river]

you won't hit 40m on details in single target ever, but if you separate a boss fight by its specific burn phase its not impossible on logs (when looking at ONLY the burn)

he was talking about aoe in keys

but pressing his single target rotation

[iron plover]

i am blind, thank you

[brisk thunder]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[twilit oracle]

Was doing single target rotation in an aoe pack (we pulled mobs onto boss)

[kind river]

araz forge isn't much worse than 9 stacks on prism right? 32,550 primary stat (decaying) on araz forge, 27,792 static on netherprism 9 stack

so if your building towards the 18 stack for a burn phase you are getting something positive out of it right?

not sure what the decay rate is

[hazy breach]

The decay hits it hard

Its 1/30 every second

[kind river]

hmm

fair

[iron plover]

your aoe rotation isnt even that much black powder if you have 4set anyways

between sectech and coup

[dusk stone]

I suppose the math for lily isnt bad

[twilit oracle]

I’m spamming it, unless I have the hero talent proc thing and secret tech

[lucid jackal]

[hazy breach]

So on average across ~20 seconds of your burst forge should give roughly 2/3s of the agi in the tooltip

So if youre not accounting for the passive agi you'd get from playing a secondary trinket the on-use from prism is stronger than the on-use of forge at roughly 7-8 stacks

[twilit oracle]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9B7C3hfGpFtmNJgT?fight=72&type=damage-done

[dusk stone]

The problem is it has little passive stat and the decay is an issue

[lucid jackal]

Looks like the good sub entropys are gonna be cheapest 😏

[twilit oracle]

Here’s the log if your interested, I’m probably doing something wrong lmao

[hazy breach]

Ye nobody wants vers+mastery

(almost nobody)

[lucid jackal]

Still gonna hold out

but probs gonna buy it eventually

maybe M+ vault blesses me

[dusk stone]

So for pacemaker i'm not wrong in thinking it has only like 50% up time right

[hazy breach]

Were not reclearing guy, im almost surely gonna continue to play dimensius with a 704 prism

[lucid jackal]

Same

[dusk stone]

Because its 15s + 15s on 60s cd right

[lucid jackal]

Dw

Were playing double rogue

and the other rogue is getting our only autmn

[brisk thunder]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lucid jackal]

So my burn damage is just worse

[hazy breach]

[dusk stone]

Yeah im stuck on 704 prism as well

[hazy breach]

Its the second autumn you want right, on the platform

[lucid jackal]

ya

[hazy breach]

Were still stuck in p1

[lucid jackal]

Its not gonna matter until u start seeing P3

[dusk stone]

But i think only the myth upgrade matters tbh

[hazy breach]

Ye ik

[lucid jackal]

It just works the entire fight, until the very end

[devout jackal]

fdk also did 33m dps. there is only so much mob hp in a pack

[hazy breach]

Ye but gotta get the habit in early because

https://tenor.com/view/jose-mourinho-sweet-trouble-gif-26762341

[twilit oracle]

But still only hit 23m dps or whatever it was, but I hit double in another pack, essentially same scenario no?

Not that any of this really matters was just curious to see if I’m doing something wrong or got lucky

[dusk stone]

Dps isnt gonna be able to be measured well in 10s regardless

[hazy breach]

Youre not doing storms inbetween your coups

[devout jackal]

not if the fdk is shitting on all your targets

[twilit oracle]

Between my coups as in like, I use the evis and in between the 2nd one that’s buffed too?

[hazy breach]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[twilit oracle]

Interesting

Thanks

[ivory jacinth]

You could also storm just before coup, right? Isn't it basically the same thing? Especially if you just used sectech

[hazy breach]

Yes, but you wouldnt do it twice

[ivory jacinth]

Oh, why?

[hazy breach]

Because then your unseen blades arent in dance anymore

[ivory jacinth]

You think it delays them too much if you storm twice?

[hazy breach]

Yes you wont have enough time to use them in dance

[ivory jacinth]

Yeah that makes sense

Even during blades you think?

[hazy breach]

Also part of the value of the storm is the danse macabre

Which is only once

[ivory jacinth]

If its the first coup, right after the first sectech

[hazy breach]

Well yeah because youre gonna sectech again

[ivory jacinth]

yeah true

[hazy breach]

And youre very likely to have procced the passive reset from thousand cuts, so its not only the two from disorienting strikes

So youd want to use that before you sectech again

[iron plover]

dang i should log

[ivory jacinth]

Yes

[bright elk]

Do we gain no benefit from our hero talents/tierset when we’re using storm>bp on large packs of mobs?

[hazy breach]

Correct, which is why we generally dont do that

[iron plover]

yea just refer to what the other guy said, i dont have any recent logs from floodgates to complare xd

[light imp]

Is vers better than mastery even in Aoe/M+ now, the top enchant for M+ on wowhead is vers and the mastery enchant is ST

[ivory jacinth]

I'm starting to have the bad habit of willing to storm during danse in aoe with coup because FW is so annoying to spread and it still a lot of damage

But it's just how it is I guess

[dusk stone]

Meh i still.dont like lily

[hazy breach]

Just follow robot, but generally it doesnt really matter

As long as youre not getting a bunch of haste

Vers/crit/mastery all fine

[dusk stone]

As 2x on use, i was thinking about it, it would go like this

Lily (pull 1) -> prism or lily -> prism and either way you are just losing a lot of stat

Everytime you alternate something is lost

Its just less bad with lily

[golden harbor]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[north bramble]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hexed sluice]

Peaked at 66 mill Big Momma opener when a pug tank went full crack head with this third pull in floodgate.

[hazy breach]

Including the bloodwarper is wild

But yeah that pull you can do some really big pump

[hexed sluice]

I showed my normal tank this pull, and they told me Im not allowed to bring pug strats to the table anymore

It was fun though, probably the most fun ive had in a key all season

Tank was too quick with it though, He was up near the glider in an instant and then back to the boss. Ive a feeling he had the lock setup a gate or run a pet up or something cause it was fast

Stood behind the small staircase to LOS everything quickly

[spring pumice]

Is the coup shuriken storm coup sequence an actual significant dps increase over coup shadowstrike coup or is it just an easy minmax to do so? Trying to drill it in my mind to do so but just wondering if it's gonna make a significant difference

And im assuming if you get refunds during your cds you just b2b coup and forget about shuriken storm altogether right?

[dusk stone]

It is if you like coup

The storm is for not wasting unseen blade procs of which you get two of provided sectec was used and then coup

You storm after that coup to not waste one

[earnest canyon]

wanted to ride on this comment.
was looking through the wowhead guide and method guide and didnt see anyhting about find weakness. is FW something we should be activilty looking out for, or just ignore it if u do your rotation correct

[dusk stone]

Theres like 17.5% chance you get double 2piece bonus with 2 strikes

[lilac plume]

Do you also use BP at +3 with the Cold Blood build?

[dusk stone]

So yes the optimization is important

[dusk stone]

We ignore it for the most part because we gain it passively if youre doing your rotation correctly

[earnest canyon]

thanks for the confirmation~ i've seen FW a lot in this chat and thought we had to track it or something

[dusk stone]

But it also assumes that you are doing the rotation correctly

Find weakness makes black powder do a lot more damage

You gain aoe FW from storm

You gain single target fw from strike and stab

[lilac stag]

We’re running so much crit these days you don’t need to track it for the most part. That why the rules are very straight forward.

[dusk stone]

So spreading rupture gives you find weakness, using storm outside of cds giving you fw

You generally only want to have and dont inside of cds in the last 12-18 seconds or so

And thats like 60/40 that you have it

[hollow python]

we're all just trying to find the weakness within ourselves

[dusk stone]

But new people dont storm between coups

So they often dont have it up

[worldly remnant]

Worth to symbols > storm > dance with rotten in aoe?

[dusk stone]

How would you do that?

Or when i guess as well

[worldly remnant]

In a big aoe pull, just do it in that order. Put symbols before to get guaranteed FW with the storm

[dusk stone]

You wouldnt do that no

Find weakness would already be up

[worldly remnant]

How?

[dusk stone]

Because youre spreading rupture with storm

And storm by itself has >50% chance to crit

[worldly remnant]

If mobs are grouped I'm not spreading rupture, just sending

Talking specifically with the rotten talented

[earnest canyon]

if faze just ended, we need to wait 10 more seconds for the next faze correct? (since it only occurs every 10 seconds)

if coup comes up RIGHT when faze ends, should we wait 10+ seconds to send coup or just send it?

[dusk stone]

Theres usually time to rupture spread before they are grouped, which pulls are you talking about

[hazy breach]

If youre playing correctly the only time fazed isnt up is If you swap target or because your target died

[spring elm]

how many globals is a TFD dance

[earnest canyon]

isnt there always a 10 second window with no fazed? since it only occurs every 20 seconds

[sleek tide]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

Storm might be able to be substitutes for backstab in 2nd dance maybe

Idk if it costs something or not to do

[hazy breach]

No,

[worldly remnant]

Was lazy to swap talents, just figuring if rotten is still worth it

[hazy breach]

The rest of the talents in trickster makes it be up more often

Sectech applies it, and tousand cuts reset the cd, and disorienting strikes allows you to bypass the cd

[dusk stone]

It might work after the initial find weakness wears idk though

But also its a lower ceiling to take that talent by a little

Also i found some interesting gameplay interactions with tornado

[earnest canyon]

i see i see! so can i safely take out my faze debuff weakaura? assuming im doing my rotation correctly

[dusk stone]

If you tornado but have flag ready and spread rupture 4x it gets you pretty close to 3 dance flag

Which is pretty strong

[spring elm]

!opener

[dusk stone]

Tornado is clunky as hell to usr but it is not bad

I see why casual uses it

[dusk stone]

In 2nd dance if you dont have full cp and no fw you can storm once after dance for pre med

I was thinking pre med only worked with stab but its only any generator

[bronze dagger]

!UI

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[grim pewter]

so im messing around on the 5 target dummies practicing aoe rn. in between cds im doing what ppl mentioned where u kinda just "hit backstab off of vibes" for unseen blade procs. when you do this you sometimes end up with less than 5 combo points, when this happens do you:
1, backstab again before casting a finisher.
2, shuriken storm to fish for FW procs and over cap combo points.
3, try to avoid this situation all together by mental mathing your shadow technique stacks to sync all your "vibe backstabs" to guarantee at least 5+ combo points.

[coarse agate]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[woven ruin]

can sub stack sc pre pull?

[lilac stag]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[woven ruin]

ahh ty

[lucid jackal]

[dusk stone]

Close

[short radish]

should have used r3 pots

[clever delta]

On salamander I find annoying that every soak overlap our cds making my opener little more rng and sometimes losing global in it

[autumn pawn]

hello guys! there is a macro to use Shadow Blades with a different trinket each time?

[plucky parrot]

#showtooltip
/cast Shadowblades
/use 13 (Forge)
/use 14 (Prism)

but it's recommended to have a separate bind for prism in cases where you aren't pressing blades on cds and both forge/ prism are up when you want to use high stacks of prism

[elfin helm]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```

[split garden]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[split shore]

How worth is it to try and fit in 2nd cou with symbols

[fallow nimbus]

You symbol for sectec + 1 spell before or after

[hazy breach]

If youre asking about supercharger it literally doesnt matter if you supercharge coup or a regular eviscerate, its the same damage anyway

[split shore]

ty, yes thats what i meant i worded that poorly

[hazy breach]

And yeah the second coup does 30% more, but its still not anywhere near sectechs damage per combo point

[split garden]

does raidbots have a way to quickly sim races against each other

like a way to do them all at once or a couple at a time?

[vale pine]

you can copy/paste this below your /simc in advanced sim

[split garden]

ty ty

[sweet raven]

Started my rogue on saturday 😎

No shower allowed

[clever delta]

@hazy breach around

[radiant island]

anyone with the same problem? when using cb-st macro. it says that spell is not learned.

#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique

and it down use cold blood when pressing

i can press it solo with no problem

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[hazy breach]

Hiya

[clever delta]

I was looking at not pala blessing gang on salamander now

And I see that some like you and others

Sending on platform and amp

[radiant island]

thx Eleem ❤️

[clever delta]

Sneaky dance before flag

I assume cdr is tight like that ?

[hazy breach]

Not really

You just dont send anything in p2

[clever delta]

What is p2

That little dance with beams ?

[hazy breach]

yes

[clever delta]

Well I saw that one guy sending dance there too

But than he had delay second dance in flag bz like two globals

Im just looking at loggrs

I will try with just symbols sectech like you did and see

Do you cloak in intermission? I was cloaking puddles since they overlap with start off cds

[loud gyro]

!vault

[vale pine]

vault is typically a sim angle

[native zodiac]

Shouldnt need to cloak if your side baits properly, probably what to fix that asap if you can when you get there

Cloak the claws at the end of the amp

Could also cloak a charge on the platform and then feint/evasion the claw on the end of the amp

[fallow nimbus]

At nexus king? I too have no autumn but can use 1 dance+sod before platforms and when i am fast i can even dance before cds on the platform

But i choose not to because we don't want that phase to be that fast, am i right

[finite kelp]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[unborn bear]

Whats Sub ST like compared to Sin, is it burst ya nut and sit on your hands till CD window, I don't mind it in M+ but haven't raided in it yet

[hazy breach]

Sub does no damage outside of dance yes

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[unborn bear]

Well that explains it rather well lol cheers

[short radish]

np

tbh enjoy the downtime

its good to stretch your hands

and fingers

give your wrist a rotation

[unborn bear]

Yea I raided last night in Outlaw and that felt like I was swinging a sword made of potatoes 1,000 times a second

[short radish]

you gotta look after yourself

nobody else will

[rocky ocean]

Still gotta spam that backstab

[native thorn]

Could someone explain to me what is the difference in the cold blood and thistle tea builds? (Sub M+) I should swap around based on the dungeon? Which one is better generally/dungeon vise?

[rocky ocean]

Btw they should buff it by 96000%

[short radish]

im good thanks

[rocky ocean]

Cold blood is slightly more single target, tea is slightly more aoe.

[dusk stone]

can you not sim the boe rings from raid?

you try putting in entropy of the quick blade and no pop up, and if you pick just 'entropy' it gives a ring with no chats even if you pick crit/vers

[bleak pasture]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Wdym

Just add entropy and then use the + on it to change the stats

[dusk stone]

k ty

[dusk stone]

didnt think to do the drop down, figured it would select the version from your options at the top crit/vers mast/crit etc

god that sucks if this thing is bis i lose leech

[rocky ocean]

You mean you lose 0,72% leech?

Sad they killed these stats after df

[dusk stone]

yeah but im tired of pug healers being pug healers

[tall girder]

woooo fimb

[short radish]

woooooooo jontic

[steady lark]

I have now lost 3 16 floodgates to my tank getting one shot by big momma

wait this is SUB CHAT

[vale pine]

it is

[steady lark]

my apologies

https://tenor.com/view/meow-cat-cat-trip-cat-fall-kitty-gif-14426836968979840999

I paid my tithe

[short radish]

something about floodgate brings out the worst in tanks

i did one that failed died 10 seconds into the pull because he could't jump over the slight incline

yes that one which im pretty sure you can just walk over

[steady lark]

after the architect pull?

man idk actually floodgate feels harder than last season

for w/e reason

[short radish]

no literally the first pull of the dungeon

[steady lark]

oh

well

hm

[short radish]

the reason he gave was that

he race changed to dwarf

and wasnt used to the size?

[steady lark]

me when I insert myself into the game and need to physically jump over elevation

[short radish]

its like when you dodge in games and you phyiscally dodge left or right sometimes

except needing to also jump

[steady lark]

[pastel rampart]

who is this

[shadow lance]

You couldn't gateway as a lock at mechagon when you were playing dwarf

[pastel rampart]

sub chat infiltrator

[shadow lance]

Cuz no los above the barrier

[short radish]

you also swam in the waters back in de other side if you were a gnome

[steady lark]

SECRET TECHNIQUE

[pastel rampart]

WANISH

check dms

[vale pine]

"uses vanish"
its not a damage loss because he plays subtlety

[shadow lance]

Dwarf got op defensive

So nerfed by size

[vale pine]

racials are way too poorly balanced

its funny how nobody ever concerns about that

[shadow lance]

Agreed

Just remove it

[pastel rampart]

do not be fooled

he is an outlaw player

[steady lark]

I come in peace

[pastel rampart]

enjoy your stay

[vale pine]

we welcome other specs players, not look down on them

[shadow lance]

And give a potion you can use only the same type per encounter/m+

[steady lark]

man idk sub doesn't feel very good to me, it's cool to do infinite dam in cds but then I hate it until I dance again

[pastel rampart]

its ok

[shadow lance]

Go grab a coffee mate

[pastel rampart]

garlicpowder is gaining massive io

[short radish]

brother just enjoy the downtime

[shadow lance]

You need to play 50% less to do more damages than other specs

[short radish]

read a book or something

[steady lark]

I did 13.8 in a floodgate earlier on garlicpowder

[short radish]

take up gardening

[pastel rampart]

sheesh

[steady lark]

I procced out of my goddamn mind on the pull before big momma finished at almost 40m

[tender patrol]

In SoD they managed to let you choose your Racial why isnt that a retail thing in First place

[short radish]

because they would lose too much money if they gave free race swaps

[steady lark]

dwarf is bad cause you look like a cube

TEMU boiled egg cuber ahh race

[astral compass]

because they offer you "great deals" on racial change

[tender patrol]

Dwarves have to fat bellies

[steady lark]

by my beard.......

[tender patrol]

Yeah I know That but tbf Most people who Go Crazy on racials don’t even Play in Ranges where it matters

[steel zinc]

That's the unquie playstle of sub and the core. If you don't like downtime sub isn't for you

[steady lark]

I'm liking being human tho ngl, can clear halls 2nd boss stun, 1st boss streets

[tender patrol]

I know optimization is a thing and stuff but let me Clown on These people

[astral compass]

i remember a while back on fyrakk progress we were forced to go dwarf because it was fckn strong 😄

[tender patrol]

I know people who Play in Guilds that barely manage to get CE and they demand their Raiders to Play the Race that Sims the highest

[short radish]

same. having the stunbreak has come in use so many times every tier

[vale pine]

thats the other extreme

[fossil forge]

Any tauren rogues in the chat

Real supreme race

[short radish]

plenty of RFWL guilds that make their guilds do splits

@runic trail care to chime in

[runic trail]

WE WEREN'T EVEN RFWL LAST SEASON

[limpid sage]

which is crazy when you consider 90% of the roster parsing 60 or lower consistently

[runic trail]

We're back on it this season for sure

[limpid sage]

like so much more juice is to be squeezed from just reading one guide

[short radish]

over or under 400 wipes on saladbar?

[runic trail]

By the time we get to him he'll be needed to oblivion

[fossil forge]

When are they gonna nerf him though :

[runic trail]

We got Araz down at least but that was 2 hours of waiting for the pull where people spawned adds in the correct spots

[short radish]

sometime between now and december

beams move slower maybe

and claws doing less damage

[fringe palm]

either unannounced stuff this id or next

[fossil forge]

i hope it will be soon progressing him this reset hopefully

(We have 7 melees on soulhunters)

[runic trail]

I don't have a 400 wipe boss in me. We had 400 on Queen and didn't even kill

And then straight into Undermine

[short radish]

dont worry this could be you soon

[runic trail]

What in the fuck

[cloud rover]

i didnt want to see that

[runic trail]

I don't think we've had 400 pulls on bosses in total

This season

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1338807060837433365/1414726672040722522/image.png?ex=68c09e62&is=68bf4ce2&hm=fa6430cf15973c556a68706aa68bcbd9633fa9f384448b713dbe7cb89df0b29e&

[short radish]

yeah the first 6 bosses this tier have been pretty good difficulty

all are like sub 50

even soulhunters as shit fest as that is

isnt too bad

[runic trail]

Ignore araz

[fringe palm]

stuck in p1 from 330-350

[runic trail]

Araz was inted by people not putting their fucking adds in the right place

God damn warlocks and refusing to move

[knotty depot]

We've had problems with Loomíthar and finally killed the fucker yesterday

now I'm scared of forgeweaver

[short radish]

oh araz took 55 for us as well

[cloud rover]

What makes you think those People can put the stars on the right place

[short radish]

but we were kinda stupid

like very stupid

we were the guild that started the whole "should we lust pull on araz for prog"

[runic trail]

I have limited faith. Like, I'm not good at this game, and I'm one of the more consistently okay ones in the raid. WHICH SPEAKS BADLY ABOUT THE REST OF THE TEAM

[karmic harbor]

are we all in the same guild?

[runic trail]

We share the trauma at least

[karmic harbor]

is this a thing rn? i rly cba dying in 2nd pylons on reclear 💀

[short radish]

yup

we were just dying on pylons

so someone was like

lets just lust pull and skip

and we killed it next pull

[runic trail]

My favourite araz wipe was the, 'stop damage on the star pillar' and then everyone on star just forgot it existed completely

And it didn't die

[limpid sage]

wait you can skip pylons?

[short radish]

only 2nd

[limpid sage]

ahh

is it easier to do it that way?

[short radish]

are you progging or reclearing

[limpid sage]

because I'm also giga rotting every time there are pylons

progging

3.5% pull

[short radish]

dont lust pull unless you are all confident in your damage

[fringe palm]

if youre progging araz right now dmg would be super tight

[short radish]

we did it

but we had vantus for it

the next week we didnt have vantus

and we had a few wipes

one of them was 15.1%

[karmic harbor]

hmmmm

[limpid sage]

we're also missing a ton of uptime because we don't knock adds into pools but stand behind them though

[karmic harbor]

are you guys still doing knock strat?

yeah my guild swapped to putting adds behind now

for reclear

might be cooked

[fringe palm]

there are some bugs apparently so we just went behind aswell

[short radish]

adds behind is cringe though

[karmic harbor]

it is cringe

[limpid sage]

what bugs?

[short radish]

(i understand why but muh parse)

[fringe palm]

idk didnt listen it was reclear

[karmic harbor]

mfw i have to put adds behind for 2nd half of flag

[short radish]

surely you can just press cloak

and sit in the poop

[hazy breach]

You can double step as well

[karmic harbor]

i need cloak for a soak

[hazy breach]

But it is indeed annoying

[karmic harbor]

could try step

[limpid sage]

ye considering double stepping as well

step->shuriken toss->step would lose nothing ig

[karmic harbor]

man double step i cant even focus target someone cause idk who'll have the adds

[runic trail]

We did knock apart from add set 5 and 9?

[limpid sage]

just have to time properly

[karmic harbor]

sounds annoying

[runic trail]

I forget the numbers

[limpid sage]

mouseover

[karmic harbor]

on 1st kill we knocked every one but we swapped to putting them behind

[karmic harbor]

im a bottom 5% csgo player i dont trust my mouse movements

[runic trail]

We just did the overlap ones behind but everything else got knocked and it worked

[karmic harbor]

yeah that does work, but my guild was missing knocks on reclear which was very tilting

like sometimes the person assigned to knock had the add and had to do some funky movement and it worked sometimes, sometimes not

can backup but some people in my guild dont have mics

[runic trail]

Force everyone to reroll dracthyr

Infinite knocks

[olive remnant]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[zinc belfry]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tawdry holly]

how many ruptures do i try to keep spread during aoe fights?

[astral compass]

as many as you can spread during downtime

[tawdry holly]

okay thanks

[scenic plover]

As long as enemys survive for a while rupture has higher prio than blackpowder in downtime

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[sweet raven]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[sweet raven]

Is this actually possible in some scenarios in keys to have SD + SoD on CD but Sectech up ? If yes what is the correct thing to do ? Wait for SoD? or just send

[alpine wraith]

depends on how long is sod and SD on cd

[short radish]

if you have like 50 seconds till flag

[alpine wraith]

if it is more than 10+ secs you can send a sec tech and just keep rupturing or using bp/evis

while doing aoe

[short radish]

then you can maybe send a naked sectech

[alpine wraith]

st is another thing

[short radish]

but it's really not worth it

in fact just dont send naked sectechs

[sweet raven]

and do you pool SD before flag also?

[karmic harbor]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[alpine wraith]

before flag you want 1 charge and a half

[sweet raven]

because i try to fish shadow technique 10 s before flag but my shadow dance do not reset since i went to agressive on it

[alpine wraith]

and for SoD 1 charge and like 14 secs or so at most

[sweet raven]

Ok maybe im sending way too much

[tall girder]

i only send naked sechtechs

who needs dance

or symbols

[short radish]

woooo naked sectechs

[sweet raven]

actually on guides there is like 0 line on naked sectech so i guess i just do normal rotation and dont even bare using it

[plucky parrot]

naked sectechs are banned

fully clothed sectechs only

[karmic harbor]

the theoretical dps gain is so small and if you mess it up it's so bad

[slow gorge]

I think i Saw it on the guide?

[sweet raven]

Yea thats my believe i dont want to be completely desync at last because i was too impatient on Sectech

[sweet raven]

Could you show me pls because on wowhead i didnt find any
everything is inside SoD or SD

[slow gorge]

Maybe im gaslighting myself i will check

Mb it was on sod

Only

[void ocean]

yea, theres no such think as fully naked sec tech, there is one with just SoD, afaik

[alpine wraith]

there is but not advisable unless you know what you are doing

and well if you are asking chances are high it wont help you

because it can mess things up

it usually happens after cds where you have SoD and dance on cd

[sweet raven]

but is this actually technically possible or does this mean i failed somewhere?

i used SoD too agressively or SD maybe

[alpine wraith]

for a bit like 10 secs or more on SoD then you can send a naked sec tech and because you only really dance once sometimes in between cds

[slow gorge]

Do we use sod solo without dance

[karmic harbor]

the whole not finishing 10s before flag is messing up the dance timers in my head

[slow gorge]

?

[alpine wraith]

you can just dance later when sec tech is about to come off cd

[gusty marsh]

Hey , sorry if the question have been already asked but can someone tell me why this Season we dont want to use shuriken storm with symbole proc as second builder during the dance , we dont want all the target to be affected by the weakness anymore ?

[alpine wraith]

it is not that you dont want there are some caveats to it

[karmic harbor]

@short radish btw in the video you posted what's the thing that shows a countdown for when you should press cds? is it mrt? and can i import it from lorrgs?

[slow gorge]

What video

[short radish]

What video

[karmic harbor]

https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1414537253975363687

[short radish]

Oh

Yeah

[karmic harbor]

stuff top left

[short radish]

Thats mrt

And Kaze

I think its kaze (weak aura)

Copied from lorgs

[karmic harbor]

nice thanks

[gusty marsh]

Like what ? 😅

[sweet raven]

do you happen to switch target during flag ? how big of a deal is it

im not sure to 100% know how it actually works

because it does ten thousands things at once

[cloud rover]

Afaik, its irrelevant if you swap

Flag stacks regardless

[alpine wraith]

yea you can change target no issue

[cloud rover]

Find Weakness and Unseen Blade is the Problem for swapping

[gloomy cradle]

is it bad to macro symbols to shadow dance and why?

[queen plinth]

fkn 13 eco dome i for sure do something wrong no?

[karmic harbor]

depends

[queen plinth]

when i see stealthi pump 9+ mil in a 10

i have prism and lily

[mint swift]

Log?

[queen plinth]

dungeon log?

[queen plinth]

uploading give me a sec.

[karmic harbor]

nvm

[mint swift]

Yea, I’m can’t really review them as I’m not all too good at sub, but showing the log itself and what happened is much easier to critique than a simple screenshot of details

[queen plinth]

well yea but normally dungeon logs are weird to review since its a dungeon

[runic trail]

Yup. My damage can vary by + or - 1 mil depending on how pulls happen

[mint swift]

Still a lot better than details screenshots.

[karmic harbor]

better tank? better route? bigger pulls?

[queen plinth]

yea my tank did like the absolute usual route

every tank does in a eco

https://de.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LNFwWtv3MC8HxaA6?fight=1&type=damage-done&source=1

could u check if u see rotation issues inside my cds maybe

[karmic harbor]

ah... ich verstehe nicht

[queen plinth]

press translate

xD

[karmic harbor]

well you're meant to use a finisher after using flag

[crisp pond]

for instance for me when i play (im badge sub) i can farm a tech 3 sec off when first dance runs out but symbols still up. then its benefitial to ”stall” with supercharger for the tech in 1-2 sec. its generellt better to not macro for line ups and scenarios

[brisk thunder]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[gloomy cradle]

ty

[sweet raven]

is this actually possible to have shadowblades run during the whole 2 shadow dance or does it actually always fade during the middle/end of the second?

[crisp pond]

i loved to macro it but its just worse sadly. specially if ur doing high end content where u wanna do the best possible damage

[karmic harbor]

@queen plinth honestly i hate reading m+ logs but after flag you want to use a finisher immediately is at least one thing, just checking the first 3 you use a builder after flag. you can also use storm inbetween coup casts on aoe or in blades instead of bs. seems like sometimes you aren't chaining dance inside blades/flag.

[queen plinth]

why we do the finihser after flag?

[crisp pond]

i mean it kinda fades natrually with the rotation. but like quick math it can last almost 100% of 2 dances

[sweet raven]

instant stack

[crisp pond]

to stack flag. pre combo points for efficent flag

[sweet raven]

i always fail to do so, and cannot manage to have 100% always 2 techniques inside the first dance

i might be doing something wrong

[sweet raven]

someone said to me that the sham buff helped on this but im not sure how

more shadow techniques?

[crisp pond]

dont think its worth to just use to get 100% uptime in blades. but tech part is the important part

[sweet raven]

does it come from pulling shadow technique?

[karmic harbor]

you can only get 2 sectecs in tfd and it can be tight

[crisp pond]

ye. in Df when we had wf totem sub rouges had about 16k dmg increase compared to a idk havoc with 5k

[sweet raven]

sometimes im like oh great and i have to send a shadowstrike and it fade

[crisp pond]

u can vanish SS or meld SS if u want :)

[queen plinth]

why storm inbetween coup

[crisp pond]

na thats just more finishers

[crisp pond]

to not proc(might be spend) unseen blade

[queen plinth]

to get 7 cp ? cause sometimes my shadowstrike doestn give me 7

[karmic harbor]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[sweet raven]

btw what is your thought process and conditions to check to send a Shadow Dance outside of burst window ?

SoD up, Shadow Technique around 15s CD?

[queen plinth]

oh

[crisp pond]

in cds ur builders always do max cp

[queen plinth]

sometimes my shadowstrike doesnt

[karmic harbor]

then you aren't in blades

[crisp pond]

i am a shit sub player. but imo i only send dance and symbols with tech (in raid). i think its cd to 2 dances+2techs. into cds again. then 2 dance+techs. into cds. then its only 1 dance into cds

but idk honestly dont trust me

im just a sin rouge forced to be a sub on specific fights

[queen plinth]

other question do i have to press trick once or every pack?

[cloud rover]

no only once as trickster

once before a fight

[karmic harbor]

you can pump those forgeweaver numbers

[robust dust]

Is a good assa log still more dmg then a bad sub log on those bosses?

[crisp pond]

i got some mean guildie padders

also typhoon to china every add pack

i was etichal boss damage dealer instead

[karmic harbor]

typhoon is better than running to behind the pool for dmg

[crisp pond]

ye for me atleast

[crisp pond]

tru

[karmic harbor]

i can't play fractillus tho

[crisp pond]

relateable

but idk i am week 2 into sub since df s3 or smth

[karmic harbor]

ye i started learning again 2 weeks ago

played lock s1 and assa s2 (apart from rik)

[crisp pond]

i just get memed that im a sin onetrick nowdays from guildies. gray to orange/purps from just switching spec

also we dont talk about prog kills. those are significally worse

[steel zinc]

If you are in progress your logs do not matter or any parse. That is absured

[crisp pond]

you can check my logs and compare since im on phone. Sophie-draenor

[crisp pond]

nah iknow but i feel awful doing a 6 parse or w/e

[karmic harbor]

depends

[steel zinc]

Doesn't matter killtime etc has such a big impact on fractilus

[karmic harbor]

sometimes you need dmg to beat a timer or w/e

[crisp pond]

i mean boss dies = win. but you can do better which makes it easier for everyone else

[crisp pond]

im a goal to hof guild. i cant be rocking gray logs. thats embarssing

[karmic harbor]

grey logs compared to everyone who's killed the boss

[steel zinc]

No sorry lit doesn't matter. In farm yeah play for logs and show u can do dmg during prog it's irrelevant

[karmic harbor]

damage definitely matters on prog

[steel zinc]

Same and it doesn't matter

[karmic harbor]

i had maybe 10-20 <3% wipes on OAB during prog, if people did more damage it would've died

[steel zinc]

Yes ofc if u are alive and gray log every boss but in general it's wild to think any parse matters during prog

[crisp pond]

i mean if there are 2 gray loggers and 4 people doing purple then gray loggers either got every mechanic during worst times or (i in this case) just suck balls

[karmic harbor]

not parse, but dmg dealt

[steel zinc]

This.

[karmic harbor]

if everyone in echo did 10% less damage they wouldnt be competetive with liquid

[steel zinc]

Yeah ofc dmg matters. Just saying during prog it's wild to focus on any damage if 9/10 times staying alive doing solid will get you most bosses killed

[karmic harbor]

depends on your guilds world rank

[steel zinc]

That's rwf that's like a different game

[karmic harbor]

the higher level you play at, the more damage matters

[crisp pond]

i mean if ur a good raider u manage good dmg + mechanics? thats the whole improvement part

[karmic harbor]

if you're just clearing hc or are world 500 or smn dmg doesnt matter that much

[crisp pond]

u solve mechs then do better dam

[steel zinc]

No just play mechanic and stay alive works for near 99.9% of guilds

[crisp pond]

we had like 4 sub 1% wipes on fractilus where damage very well mattered on prog

[crisp pond]

yeah but hof is part of the 0.1%?

or hof might be like 0.01? idk

[fossil forge]

u should do same damage progress or not

[karmic harbor]

and doing more damage makes the fight easier

[steel zinc]

This yes but people just worry to much about dmg. It's about pull count and executing a fight clean not your omega dmg

[fossil forge]

Consistency matters

[steel zinc]

I'd rather gray parse or w/e during prog if we shave of 10 pulls

[crisp pond]

i mean we aim for lower pull counts cause its useless to fight for 30 pulls more if u just do stuff better

[karmic harbor]

sure, but you can do both. do good damage and not mess up mechanics

[crisp pond]

like swedish raid scene we got 100 pulls in total less than other guilds since we play ”better” in some way

[karmic harbor]

parse isn't the right word, doing the most damage possible based on your scenario is what you should be looking for

[steel zinc]

If you need 30+ pulls soulhunter it's an issue of people not playing mechanics.

You have 3% dmg buff

Next week even more

You don't need to do omega dmg. We lit were afk during intermission on soulhunters are staying alive as melee

[crisp pond]

yeah but we killed soul hunters 2 weeks ago? we did need damage

[steel zinc]

We did too and that's just setup stuff

[crisp pond]

had same situations with eg smolderon and others

[steel zinc]

I am just saying if you raid world 500 and worry about your dmg on soulhunter or fractilus instead of good execution then your just stuck imo

And yes obviously if you play sub rogue and on sub fights are not topping your doing sth wrong but just play your dmg role and mainly focus on playing clean

[crisp pond]

yeah but we talked about me which is a goal to top 200 or less? which means damage is important. ur just missing what i was saying

[steel zinc]

The point I am making is that even at like world 100 playing clean with a raid dmg buff more gear is way more important then at top 20 level

[crisp pond]

but i do agree top 500 idc do one button if u want

[steel zinc]

No amount of dmg can save you from eating beams and playing consistently nexus king p1

[crisp pond]

no but playing clean and doing good damage will beat the boss this or next week??

[steel zinc]

You can literally go afk and on nexus king for example focus on the mechanic your doing

[crisp pond]

progression is about consistent pulls and do good damage while playing clean

[karmic harbor]

mapko seems to think it's do good damage or play mechanics well

[steel zinc]

Yes but first focus should be to play clean and not dmg during prog

[crisp pond]

i mean this is clearly ragebait right

[karmic harbor]

idk

[steel zinc]

Yes and during prog focus on mechanics first

And then dmg will come

Not talking first 3 bosses here

[crisp pond]

neither are we?

[native zodiac]

3/5 of my officer have damage done on details off during prog and just have deaths on details (wr 60)

just to put it into perspective

[steel zinc]

Yes

[crisp pond]

yeah but thats a different thing? thats about what information is needed to know for them to adjust

pure numbers is w/e except like specific adds or smth

[native zodiac]

theres rarely a case you wipe to dmg

[crisp pond]

no but if a player struggles on pillar damage on araz. surely ur officer want to help them?

longer pillars = more dam = more possible deaths?

[steel zinc]

That's why for example mages pop cds etc

And a sub rogue blasts boss and is a paid actor in that phase

[crisp pond]

yeah cba this is derailed cause u either didnt understand what i was saying or ur just ignorant

gl in prog mr mapko take care

[lilac stag]

Because you don’t understand the point it does not make them ignorant

Damage literally doesn’t matter, until it does on progression.

You hit enrage and are fooked? Time to look closer at dmg optimizations.

[vale pine]

yet, most complains about damage come before you even die on enrage

"process 20% of the boss in 5 pulls"

"we need to get those shitheads out of the raid group, their damage is terrible, should not be in mythic"

and that on a fight without any damage checks^^

i exraggerate here, but it is a very common thing

[steel zinc]

In pugs yes

[vale pine]

in guild groups too

don't expect your guild members to use any other metric than parses and damage on details to verify

[shadow lance]

We only had enrage issue on fort boss atm

[native zodiac]

The only time ive had a boss where we looked at dmg was rashok and terros week 1

[shadow lance]

And it was week 1

[vale pine]

thats the beauty

once you get to a high enough level of play, its less of an issue

[native zodiac]

Pretty much

[karmic harbor]

you realise that by playing in a wr60 guild, you're playing with some of the best players in the game (who'll do good dmg)

[vale pine]

but parsing and details culture is ruining a lot of things

and actually hinders progression in 90% of the cases

[shadow lance]

Who cares about parses in prog boss?

[crisp pond]

i do!

[karmic harbor]

say you want to skip the 2nd pylons on forgeweaver, you need to push boss to 15% people need to do good dmg for that

[lilac stag]

It’s def different on a roster of 30 with a wr of 1500, but they still look at deaths first.

[earnest canyon]

is there an aproximate damage difference if we go full prio and only use evisorate and not use bp? (but still can use shruiken storm)

[vale pine]

only if you die too much

[shadow lance]

Not a parses thing then

[vale pine]

or well

even more specific

[lilac stag]

nah.

[vale pine]

if you die in pulls that are close enough to a kill

its just the blame game

[karmic harbor]

im not talking about parses

[lilac stag]

it’s looking at who or what is not using defensives or get unavoidable deaths

[vale pine]

nobody does that

[shadow lance]

You answer my message speaking about parses

[vale pine]

too much effort

[lilac stag]

literally the guild I’m in does

[karmic harbor]

my point from the beginning is that doing more dmg makes bosses easier

[lilac stag]

So

It takes 5 seconds

[crisp pond]

also that doing good damage while manageing mechanics

[lilac stag]

and then you see patterns

[shadow lance]

My RL ask why we died, and most of us are saying that's our bad cuz we had still defensive up.

But some pref saying no heal gg, so he checks in these cases

[vale pine]

think thats fair

[plush roost]

I dont think anybody disagrees that doing good damage on prog is good. But if i had to choose between causing a wipe cause i wanted to get 2 more dance globals than just do the fight then i wouldnt be in my guild

[karmic harbor]

yes this is my position

[shadow lance]

Oh. Yes, I agree with that

[vale pine]

the problem is damage becomes the main objective

[karmic harbor]

that's literally what we're saying

[crisp pond]

we were getting ragebaited 100p

[vale pine]

i see this every tier since bfa in guilds and groups i raid with

people tunnel vision the bosses and try to do as little as they can

[shadow lance]

But lower dps isn't a problem if you don't reach enrage

[karmic harbor]

depends

[vale pine]

we as a guild had to make melee dps move to play ranged mechanics in some tiers

to even beat mythic fights

[lilac stag]

You mean the assa rogue on loom that says then can’t swap to tendrils?

[shadow lance]

Or if it doesn't break the strat

[crisp pond]

ur missing a core part of the argument still

[plush roost]

Tbh first 20 pulls of a hard boss is where you learn how much of a damage gamer you can be before dialing it back

[crisp pond]

thats just class restriction not same thing

[vale pine]

tbh neither sub or assa is contributing much to kill them

[plush roost]

Then utilize that limit through prog and pass it as you and thr raid improves

[shadow lance]

Which is?

[crisp pond]

.

[lilac stag]

You can 100% swap to them. Is it optimal? No. Nothing is preventing you from mutilating them

[shadow lance]

I was reacting at fuu saying parses are ruining prog

[crisp pond]

ur class doesnt do anything significant compared to a dh or smth

[lilac stag]

Sub can destroy them, but not exactly a great use of dps

[vale pine]

oh ye absolutely

[crisp pond]

class restriction thank you

[lilac stag]

Just covering for those that are lazy

[vale pine]

fireing your cooldowns on them

is def. an option

[queen plinth]

is this what we play in m+? or any better talent choices

[vale pine]

and as i mentioned above

maybe we need to do that

so ranged dps can tunnel boss

[crisp pond]

Cb on more st dungeons eg street imo. otherwise yes

[plush roost]

Thsts fine was playing that last night did good dam

[vale pine]

(we don't need to do that, but we would have to in older tiers with players we had back then)

[lilac stag]

lower ranked guilds is about figuring out who will move cds for important parts of the fight to limp across the finish line.

[plush roost]

Just macro tea into shadowdance

[queen plinth]

what we switch for cb, thistle tea and above?

[crisp pond]

tea side basically yeah

[plush roost]

Tea vigor -> lethality cb

[vale pine]

not exactly true

[proven plover]

Nah fuck rdps, tendrils are their job

[vale pine]

my point is still that dps focus makes people not play mechanics propperly

[crisp pond]

lower ranked kills wait for dps buff or nerf to boss or brute force