subtlety

[honest saddle]

maybe a bit higher

[dusk stone]

That would be hilariohs

[honest saddle]

some trash packs would be nearly impossible

[dusk stone]

You would never get count but you could stealth everything

[runic trail]

I ran an all bear key earlier today and now... I have ideas.

[honest saddle]

I think you could get count eventually

press evasion, target 1 add

kill it

reset

[runic trail]

I mean timing it would be crap but... this has potential.

[shrewd lantern]

my brain still does dance backstab

then symbols sb sectec

i think thats muscle memory from when you didnt want to burn a rotten stack on bs

[dusk stone]

Whats wrong with that?

[honest saddle]

this isnt 2015 xiani

MOVE ON

[shrewd lantern]

yeah it probably is a non differenc

[dusk stone]

Sub is kinda cracked for how little damage it takes in keys

[cedar eagle]

in m+ since im not used to trickster (Assa main) do you just SS/Evis spam or do you shuriken/BP

[shrewd lantern]

yeah then theres outlaw

[dusk stone]

You have nearly as much dcd uptime as tank sometimes

[shrewd lantern]

with feint cdr

[flint python]

so should I be able to hit my 5T target dummy sim in dornagol?

[dusk stone]

If the raid buffs and debuffs and etc are equalized

But i would just check if youre doing the thing right

I really hate arcane

Its most useless spec to me this patch in keys, everyone wants to run it in phys comp and its not a shaman

No melee kick

No raid buff

[hazy breach]

!aoe Mostly strike+bp

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[cedar eagle]

shuriken storm is poop interesting

thank you, not used to this sub yet gonna test it in some weekly

[hazy breach]

!coup Only exception is this #2

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[sick basin]

And for AOE weakness

[hazy breach]

No

[dusk stone]

Eleem i find my shadow dance actually wear off for like a split second for me and i'm pressing sod dance then sectec

[sick basin]

Where else do you get EW from?

[dusk stone]

Is that fine or

[hazy breach]

Either from that storm inbetween coups or not at all

[sick basin]

You just say f it and move on? Huh

[shrewd lantern]

storm ruptures on the gather?

[hazy breach]

Advancing coup stacks is more important

[shrewd lantern]

and hope for crits

[hazy breach]

Yes and/or before

So much power is tied into unseen blade and coup now with tier

And storming doesnt do anything for it

Most of your finishers in dance is not BP anyway, its sectech+coup

[devout jackal]

Would y'all say sub is the most complex spec in the game rn? For combined raiding, m+

[dusk stone]

For raid no

[willow pawn]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[dusk stone]

Sub is high barrier to entry and after it clicks its easy

Literally just do the opener and dont worry about optimizations until after

[devout jackal]

Yeah I feel that if you can get the opener you are chillin. M+ it's significantly more difficult

I'm playing sub and BM rn. And BM just feels so faceroll for as much, or more DMG lol

Questioning myself why even play sub

[lucid jackal]

Honestly, no lol

Idk. I feel this spec is so simple

But I guess most specs in wow are like, literal ret/bm

[stoic sphinx]

sub is straight vibing

[bold hatch]

Hey guys, I'm having some trouble with fitting a second ST in my initial TFD window when pulling, basically I manage to refresh it juuuuust on the same global as my dance expires and I lose all of my macabre stacks, I'm wondering if that's due to the very low haste stacks as I'm ocassionally able to do it in lust. For context I currently have 1400 haste stat 🤔

[warm marlin]

i have still been doing the fw spread with rotten thing and it feels REALLY bad to do sectec storm (with 3 escalating stacks and the guaranteed one from sectec waiting)

into evis evis

[dusk stone]

Were suppose to run no haste

The 2nd sectec in tfd is cdr dependent i think

[bold hatch]

Ye ye I know I'm just wondering if it's just gcd haste thing as it's like 0.5 sec off each time and it's really tilting

[dusk stone]

We have 1 sec gcd always

[warm marlin]

you need to cast sectec 2gcds before dance ends to get the full thing in tfd anyway (or well... around 2 gcds, sometimes 1 is fine if you had a very clean dance)

with prepull stuff i get it around 50% of the time without lust

[dusk stone]

This actually answered my question my dance usually expires for like a split second before i hit sod dance macro again

I think youre suppose to use symbols for that sectec and dance after

As it lands i think

Its prob best to have sd weak aura and baby sit it falling off

[bold hatch]

So basically pool Shadow Technique combo points before in order to ensure it every time Ig

[hazy breach]

You dont need to focus on getting both inside your first dance to begin with

Sometimes youll proc and it will happen, sometimes it wont

Its not something to care about

Just cast sectech when its ready

[bold hatch]

I'm not concerned about it that much when it comes to Raid as I don't raid at all, mainly for m+ as you get a lot more value from TFD there

The thing that brought me to this chat is because I had the mini-boss in Halls +15 survive on 20 mil before healing and it literally would've made the difference :DDDDD

[tranquil sorrel]

How am I supposed to keep my raid spot if i dont parse 99 on the first week of trying subtlety

[slate lantern]

did you run improve wound poison

[woeful abyss]

hey 🙂
anyone have a good video guide for sub? im currently on assa and want to test out sub

[slate lantern]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[slate lantern]

All 3 are good by active good players 🙂

[woeful abyss]

sorry, video guide 😄

[slate lantern]

Hachadino has some guides on his yt

But honestly start by just practicing the opener 100 times on dummies

That's 80% of the spec

[woeful abyss]

ok i will try, ty

[lunar crystal]

This is listed, in the wowhead guide under ST rotation for sub

[hazy breach]

Correct

[lunar crystal]

But, if you dont have shadowcraft stacks, and blades is not up, you would have to use 2-3 shuriken storms to fill your CP, is that still correct?

or am I missing something here?

[hazy breach]

Does it not explicitly say during blades

Above

[lunar crystal]

Just during dance

[hazy breach]

Ig it doesnt, but its not worth doing it unless you have blades (or 4+ targets)

[lunar crystal]

okok, nice

[woeful abyss]

i would love if there is any german guy who can explain it to me 😄

[dusk stone]

Shindigg has a guide from 8 months ago

[dusk stone]

Did you use wound poison

[alpine wraith]

likely not

[dusk stone]

Rogue poisons underrated

The lust pull at start of eco has a lot of trash that leeches

[sick basin]

Even swap to wound poison for that mini as assa, and that feels real bad but totally worth

[dusk stone]

Crippling 72% slow keeps mobs from moving much at gambit

[sick basin]

I miss running dragon as assa

Take all the poison

[dusk stone]

Crippling is actually really good with the talents

[lunar crystal]

what talents do you drop for this?

I assume you need these two:

[dusk stone]

50% shroud cd and one other

[woeful abyss]

but i guess its not up to date in s3 then?

[dusk stone]

I forget which but wasnt important

[dusk stone]

He did update it, but it isnt in depth

[lunar crystal]

Perhaps:

?

[dusk stone]

Ill go look

Iron stomach and shroud cd i believe not at home atm

I wouldnt drop shadowrunner that talent matters

[lunar crystal]

hmm, my talent setup is already not running shroud cc

[woeful abyss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vURj5PzU5-A this one?

[lunar crystal]

cd

Guess ill drop

and iron stomach

Thanks!

[bold hatch]

Ye ye I did run improved wound

[dusk stone]

Kidney one matters actually

You could though

[bold hatch]

I dropped the shroud cd for it

[dusk stone]

If you have wound poison with talents and you lusted and you had appropriate cds

No way that mini boss should have been healthy.

Did you remember to swap your poison,?

[dusk stone]

Yes

[bold hatch]

I think I was the only one that held for the actual dmg buff but regardless that 20 mil was the diff, it died on the second 3rd succ

[dusk stone]

Does kidney scale to 7 or more points with supercharger?

[dusk stone]

I'm not sure if sectec hits for 20mil more just with sd

[rancid crow]

is this okay for nexus king heroic? 😭

[hazy breach]

Kidney has its duration maxed at 5 cp

[dusk stone]

So with leeching poison if i had 7% leech before i'd have 17% total yes?

[bold hatch]

probably not but it's what lead me here so 😄

[dusk stone]

Im sorry for your loss

[hazy breach]

Leeching poison is 3% (or 3.6% with master poisoner)

Not 10%

[tribal blade]

thank christ finally

that was way more painful than it needed to be

[dusk stone]

The talent guide on wowhead is out of date

Leeching is listed as 10% as well as other errors

[hazy breach]

Its twice as good for assa, but for sub its 3.6%

[dusk stone]

It seems like we have ok sustain but i look at our hps and its shit

[swift tinsel]

We also take low damage

[tribal blade]

rogues don't need high hps

we take not a lot of dmg

[hazy breach]

We dont heal anything no, but we take very low damage

[dusk stone]

Yeah i dont take much

[fair cloak]

I figured something out

[hazy breach]

Assa does though

[fair cloak]

That is giga 5 head

[hazy breach]

[dusk stone]

But you cant stop a healer from being bad

[fair cloak]

Or not

[warm marlin]

Self heal isn’t too horrible with exhil and leech

[swift tinsel]

Sub should passively take the least damage of pretty much any spec in the game

[warm marlin]

You’re not a dh but it’s not horrible

[fair cloak]

During single target preas shiv dueing dance for extra macabre stack

Before tech

[hazy breach]

Not worth

[fair cloak]

7 stacks of macabre

Not Worth?

[swift tinsel]

Nope

[dusk stone]

Is exhilarating execution strong or no

[swift tinsel]

It’s alright

[dusk stone]

With 3% leech, 3% from finishers in snd and EE thst has to be decent right?

[fair cloak]

Why its not Worth, bcz gcd time?

[warm marlin]

I’ve been experimenting with it and it seems to be healing a good amount more than the increased healing node would be (in raid)

[hazy breach]

As an example, if sectech does 100 damage. Would you rather:

• Use a 5 dmg shiv to buff sectech by 6% up to 106 damage
• Use a strike that does 10, procs an unseen blade that does 20 and buffs your sectech by 3% from flawless form

[swift tinsel]

Tbh I feel like hp bars move so fast from healing the 8% doesn’t do much

[hazy breach]

Yeah in nerubar the 8% was noticeably better

But now you might aswell just always play exhil

[warm marlin]

Especially in i.e nexus where you’re taking a lot of dmg during a damage amp

And exhil is just topping you

[swift tinsel]

I feel like guardian with berserk up when I send prism in cds

[dusk stone]

Which tree is snd healing in?

[fair cloak]

Ok

[swift tinsel]

You mean recuperator?

The baby heal

Class tree

[fair cloak]

How u manage to make 6 stacks during one dance

[hazy breach]

You dont think about or track danse mabacre

[fair cloak]

Also can u chain dances so macabre doasnt reset

[warm marlin]

Sectec counts as 3

[swift tinsel]

It ends per dance

So no stack chaining

[fair cloak]

Kk

Auto counts for stack of macabre

But its irrevelant to wait for swing timer

[hazy breach]

No

[hazy breach]

Silly clones healing themselves instead of me

[dusk stone]

So we have recuperator, exhil and leeching for self sustain

[swift tinsel]

First their own gambling addiction

[dusk stone]

I feel like we cant take exhil much

[warm marlin]

classic

[swift tinsel]

Recuperator is so little healing

[dusk stone]

It says up to 1% is it like psuedo leech or something

[swift tinsel]

It’s a tiny tick of healing

[lucid jackal]

I'm a full leech enchant gamer

I love leech

[dusk stone]

Yeah

[muted oriole]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[dusk stone]

I run elusive in keys and i want more sustain

[swift tinsel]

I’m an avoidance enthusiast personally

[dusk stone]

25 vers is enough

Which enchants can we slam for leech, just bracer?

[swift tinsel]

Cloak

[warm marlin]

[swift tinsel]

Okay just LoH yourself

[dusk stone]

Wait tf

[hazy breach]

Presumably thats platform with 18 stacks

[dusk stone]

Clones healing themselves

Tf

[warm marlin]

damage amp

[swift tinsel]

Hehe

[dusk stone]

Oh ny god that is cursed

[swift tinsel]

Clones suck what can ya do

[dusk stone]

Can we trick our clones

[lucid jackal]

Avoidance works on most things

Leech works on everything

That's my argument

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach ok yeah only pressing strike in dances is way more superior

[versed swift]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tribal blade]

had to get out of the muscle memory of casting storm to apply FW

[dusk stone]

Idk healing im this game makes me mad

[tribal blade]

but it's a lot better

[dusk stone]

You run elusive dr everything take no damage do healers job for him still lets you die

[swift tinsel]

Yeah just feels easier to strike always

And swap evisc and BP when applicable

[warm marlin]

i too am a leech believer

why are you afraid of aoe damage as a rogue in the first place

[tribal blade]

something something candle king

[swift tinsel]

It’s almost the only damage I take

[warm marlin]

i like going leech to cover the more noticable weakness of self sustain

[dusk stone]

So exhil is effectively 5% leech?

[hazy breach]

Candle kings got hands

[dusk stone]

Or does leech do weird things and not heal 5%

[hazy breach]

From finishers only, but it also cannot overheal

[swift tinsel]

I usually end up with at least one leech piece and with leeching poison I ain’t too worried

[tribal blade]

nah lower than that

[warm marlin]

i didnt push last season but wasnt the heal absorb scary on that fight too

[hazy breach]

No leech works as expected, except it comes in 1 second intervals instead of on each hit

[tribal blade]

at least in ST exhil doesn't heal for a great deal

[dusk stone]

So like

In our burst if were doing like 20mil on a pack

Thats 2mil healing

10% leech

[hazy breach]

Well exhil only works on finishers

[tribal blade]

yeah exhil becomes way better in aoe

if you're pressing BP

[hazy breach]

And it doesnt work on the sectech clones

[dusk stone]

I guess i am asking in aoe do i heal a lot

[hazy breach]

Well yeah, but moreso from regular leech

[tribal blade]

it's kinda annoying how exhil works with nimble

[hazy breach]

Since nimble flurry and sectech aint working with exhil

[tribal blade]

big oversight

[dusk stone]

Exhil shield doesnt show up with regular frames right

I use elvui

[tribal blade]

not sure, you might just have never noticed it

[rancid crow]

anybody available to review logs?

[dusk stone]

It would show up at white thing right

[tribal blade]

not very often you're able to actually stack it up high in combat

[hazy breach]

Ye youre not always topped enough for the shield to be noticeable

[dusk stone]

I see

Maybe its better with druid because hot healer

[hazy breach]

I mean it doesnt matter

If it shields or not

It either heals or it shields

[dusk stone]

A lot of damage is spikey too

[hazy breach]

But yeah its just classic blizzard oversight to not have it work with nimble flurry or sectech

[dusk stone]

Makes sense to me

At least we dont have invisible reaches in this game

There was a boss in swtor whose mechanic among others would spawn reaches with lightning between 2 points and it would bug

And it was all invisible

It was insta kill

[hazy breach]

Yeah blizzard would never have mechanics be invisible and instakill you

[dusk stone]

Well we did have invisible mine bugs last tier

With desync at mugzy

So that counts ig

[hazy breach]

The first pull of rookery consistently had one of their frontals be invisible

Or well, partly invisible

Also most of the time if you kill the target while their projectiles are in air the animation stops but the damage still goes through

[dusk stone]

Is that why i would randomly die

Come to think of it we have invisible circles in the dawn church because of clipping

Also why is it.you dont like elusive? I took one look at it and i never looked back.

20% dr on direct, 50% with trickster for aoe on 2 charges you can layer feint and evasion for a lot of dmg

[hazy breach]

I mean most of the time feint works already

And cheat is insanely OP

[dusk stone]

Any examples of that?

[hazy breach]

If something is aoe

Which most things are

Then feint is 40%

With elusiveness

Its still 40%

[dusk stone]

Cant cheat get wasted a lot though?

Like if you get clipped on edge of circle with aoe its gonna go through it no?

[hazy breach]

What

[swift tinsel]

Typically only abilities that are what, 1.5x your hp bypass cheat

[dusk stone]

I tried cheat for a bit

I would die quickly after cheat was proc'd

Seemed like stuff went through it a lot

[swift tinsel]

If it was enough to kill through cheat then elusiveness isn’t likely gonna help

[dusk stone]

Im dead either way yes

[swift tinsel]

Or would have lived through with elusiveness

And cheat doesn’t require pre-planning like elusiveness does

It’s insurance

[dusk stone]

Meh i treat feint like insurance

If im not sure i just use it

It doesnt save you from bolts though i will say that

Do you guys use causese? Or targeted by spells

[swift tinsel]

Yes

[dusk stone]

Causese is so nice

[manic salmon]

is vers & avoidance multiplicative or additive

[hazy breach]

Multi

[manic salmon]

does that mean that

leech is better

enchantment wise

[hazy breach]

Leech usually gives less percentage per point

Just preference really, either is fine

[manic salmon]

in my head preventing damage is better than healing it

[wooden wagon]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[dusk stone]

Well unless you are preventing a significant amount of damage already and have no healing

And youre dying to that

[manic salmon]

30% vers is a lot

15% natural dr comes in handy

[dusk stone]

Guess its a question of how much you trust your healer

[manic salmon]

this was just at a flood 14

keep in mind

[swift tinsel]

Usually trust them more than the tank/other dps

[manic salmon]

flood 16*

i had this and healer didnt

[dusk stone]

Im 3% avo 7% leech atm

[dusk stone]

Whats shit about leech for sub is you essentially do none outside of cds

[manic salmon]

Yup

[dusk stone]

And you rly dont need it then that much at least sometimes in cds because your in feint

Not sure it'd save you from bad pug healer either

Big momma will murder your face regardless

[manic salmon]

just trying to figure out whats what

[dusk stone]

Yeah same

[manic salmon]

in my eyes avoidance is way more useful than leech

[dusk stone]

Weapon poison is 3%

Btw

[manic salmon]

3.6

[dusk stone]

3.6 ye

I often dont run the 20% for it

But meh i want to explore how applicable non damaging poisons are in keys

[cursive mirage]

do sub rogues have a site like monks do and druids

[hazy breach]

No

[dusk stone]

1st pull in eco dome all of those mobs leech

[manic salmon]

yeah its called baddragon.com

[dusk stone]

Like its their designed mechanic to do so

Havent tested but wound poison seems good there

[fallow nimbus]

Speed is the best stat, can't get dmg if dmg can't catch you

[dusk stone]

Gambit mobs run away, if they have 72% slow they aint moving

[manic salmon]

wound poison in halls

[dusk stone]

Or tank needs to kite as well

[manic salmon]

you have natty 15% and another 20 in stealth dance

youre faster than mounts shrouded

[dusk stone]

Yeah sub is based for movement

[manic salmon]

you dont need speed

🥱

[dusk stone]

It will cut time off of keys if you use it a lot and the talent for it

[short radish]

yeah but with speed enchants im at 160% movespeed

you really dont need avoidance

[manic salmon]

ok speedy boy

[fallow nimbus]

167% here

[short radish]

im like 181 in my speed set

[manic salmon]

omg can i have your seed

[short radish]

sure i guess

[manic salmon]

yay

[dusk stone]

Where else non lethals good aside gambit, eco and mini boss in halls

[manic salmon]

lethal*

is good in halls

[dusk stone]

Or lethals too ig

[manic salmon]

wound is lethal

[dusk stone]

Poisons generally ye

[short radish]

nvm its 186%

[manic salmon]

dr in general is decent

but poison application for sub kinda sucks

cuz you dont really shuriken storm that often

and when murlocs start running

[dusk stone]

It works on gathers

Bp as well afaik

[manic salmon]

does bp poison

[hazy breach]

Yes

[manic salmon]

i excluded poisons from nameplates

[short radish]

i also have a leech set for funsies

[hazy breach]

Everything applies poison

Besides nimble flurry

Because its bugged

[manic salmon]

whats not bugged

[short radish]

backstab

[manic salmon]

im sure we'll find a bug

[short radish]

inb4 backstab is also bugged

[manic salmon]

if backstab was also relevant

[hazy breach]

Or well, presumably a bug

Since blade flurry applies poison

[short radish]

does GB crit strikes work now?

[hazy breach]

One would expect nimble to do so as well

[manic salmon]

i wonder if nimble flurry will go baseline

[dusk stone]

Wound poison works on 1st boss eco dome

Thats actually not nothing

[tribal blade]

if you see how much more dmg outlaw's instant poison does than ours

in aoe

would actually make a difference

[short radish]

but.... the first boss shouldn't be healing in eco dome

right...

[hazy breach]

I mean it shouldnt be healing to begin with

[dusk stone]

True

But still

[hazy breach]

Moreso related to the non-lethal ones

[manic salmon]

someone is saving dance to pad on the smallies

[hazy breach]

Rather than the dps loss from not applying instants

[tribal blade]

yah true

[dusk stone]

Is instant rly that much?

Its like 5k

[hazy breach]

Like not applying crippling with nimble on araz

[manic salmon]

i usually prio the big giant with eviscerates in gambit

[hazy breach]

Wouldve felt a lot better if it did

[manic salmon]

no wonder the small shifs were running so willy nilly

[swift tinsel]

Gotta have a dk with the 90% slow from DnD

[dusk stone]

How much of our dps is instant poison

[hazy breach]

Practically nothing

Like 0.5%

[short radish]

oh yeah all you high key andys like @tribal blade how much are you being ethical and doing prio damage instead of black powder

[tribal blade]

very small

[dusk stone]

Then lethals are fine

[manic salmon]

on singletarget like 0.7% at best

[tribal blade]

lol very rarely

[hazy breach]

Genuinely dont think it really matters

The difference is so small

[tribal blade]

on bosses definitely pressing evis

[short radish]

ez

[manic salmon]

i dont like black powder

[hazy breach]

Most of your finishers during dance are sectech and coups anyway

[manic salmon]

goofy ass ability

[short radish]

yeah thats true

[hazy breach]

Which does good prio

[manic salmon]

throw explosive powder

[hazy breach]

Like if you disable BP in the sim

It gains like 7% prio damage

[tribal blade]

i sometimes swap to pressing evis when a pack is dying and a big mob still has higher hp than the others

[manic salmon]

thats not that much then

[tribal blade]

but not at the start of a pulll

[hazy breach]

(and loses like 5% overall)

[manic salmon]

ya exactly

i was doing a floodgate the other day

with another sub rogue

we pulled in 6 divers with swampface

[tribal blade]

how many 17s do you have up in queue atm

[manic salmon]

and my man was bping

[dusk stone]

Does crippling slow anything in flood

[manic salmon]

you dont want to cripple in flood

lol

[dusk stone]

I wondeeing if it did anything to the leapers

[manic salmon]

crippling fucks the gathering of the pulls

[hazy breach]

Idk im not online, but i would expect 0 as its 4:24 am

[manic salmon]

if anything youd want mobs to be faster in flood

[tribal blade]

oh right haha

[manic salmon]

ye its 0

i checked 3 minites ago

[tribal blade]

that is kinda trolling yeah

[manic salmon]

Yur

[tribal blade]

on bosses better to just full send evis

[hazy breach]

Assuming you have something that actually gets funnel might be worth to move away so youre out of range of nimble for them

If you want the full teamplayer experience

[short radish]

we did that pull except with the spinny aoe healy dudes

[manic salmon]

[short radish]

i full sent bp

[manic salmon]

thats so fucking true

[tribal blade]

WHAT

that's suicidal

[swift tinsel]

Yeah wtf

That’s such a shit pull even without a boss lmao

[short radish]

yeah i was kinda confused by that pull

but the mad lad did it

[dusk stone]

Which pull

[manic salmon]

full cds with bloodlust its not that bad

the kelps and swampface

[swift tinsel]

The kelps

Yeah actual insane idea

[dusk stone]

They heal?

[swift tinsel]

Yes

[tribal blade]

that's an enormous strain on your healer

[short radish]

they heal.

[manic salmon]

They cast heal

you can purge it

[dusk stone]

Wound it is then

[swift tinsel]

Pray you have a belf

[manic salmon]

they dont link so

[tribal blade]

lol yeah make the healer cast purge mid rot boss

[swift tinsel]

Or multiple

[short radish]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8RDaYxnNGHFBQ2PZ?fight=2&type=damage-done&phase=3

[tribal blade]

with the aoe from kelps going out

that'll end well

[manic salmon]

🙋‍♂️

[short radish]

woooooo black powder

[swift tinsel]

I was until I became maghar-pilled

I do miss the aoe purge sometimes

[tribal blade]

people sometimes pull in crabs into swampface

[manic salmon]

i wanna

[tribal blade]

but that's more managable

[manic salmon]

go night elf

[tribal blade]

healer can communicate when they need to die

[manic salmon]

just so that i can get more first dances off

[tribal blade]

best use of nelf atm is melding casts and stuff

[manic salmon]

sometimes vanish isnt enough

[tribal blade]

you can become low key invincible in halls/priory

[manic salmon]

Yeah thats also true

[tribal blade]

with meld

[manic salmon]

i love vanishing casts in dawnbreaker

cocoon?

abyssal cast?

[tribal blade]

i need a list of everything vanish/meldable this season

[hazy breach]

Its a bit weird how theres multiple 2 minute on-use racials that give stats but no 90s one

Ig berserking is 3 min, so thats almost 90s, but its haste unfortunately

[manic salmon]

what if

they made dance & symbols scale with haste

[swift tinsel]

Then we become outlaw

And need breakpoints

[hazy breach]

They should do something to make haste better yeah, but not like outlaw

[tribal blade]

yeah there would become breakpoints

[manic salmon]

better than having a dead stat

dont you think

[hazy breach]

Honestly no

[swift tinsel]

I mean we get good value from three out of four

So I don’t think so

[manic salmon]

i mean if thats the case we just remain as having haste a dead stat

[tribal blade]

gain more passive DR from stacking vers

[hazy breach]

If you ask in outlaw im sure most of them would prefer to not requiring to reach their haste breakpoint

[tribal blade]

also not tied to lust

or PI

[hazy breach]

And then its a dead stat after that anyway

[manic salmon]

idk i just dont see how else they make haste viable

[hazy breach]

I mean they could obviously do other things to make haste more valueable, rather than reducing the gcd

[swift tinsel]

Idk with the way sub works haste is just kinda weird to try and make fit

[manic salmon]

well it doesnt work

because energy outside of cds is useless

[hazy breach]

Gutting out energy regen would make it better

[hollow heron]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[manic salmon]

and you dont have energy issues in cds

the only way to make it releveant is to make you have energy issues in cds

[swift tinsel]

Yeah instead of raising energy cost just make regen lower like they did with feral

[hazy breach]

Thats not the only way though

Theres tons of others

[manic salmon]

im all ears

i like haste

[swift tinsel]

Have relentless and shadowcraft buoy energy economy in cds

[hazy breach]

You could get more damage during dance based on your haste, you could make rupture scale better with haste

[tribal blade]

something like with multistrike during wod

[hazy breach]

You could make it so we proc certain things more often with haste

[swift tinsel]

Honestly giving rupture any interaction with our kit

[manic salmon]

yeah i agree with hap

rupture feels out of place

filler spender

[hazy breach]

The passive unseen blade procs do scale with haste, but they could scale more aggressively with haste

[dusk stone]

We had garrote at one point too

[swift tinsel]

This would be a really nice change

Esp after playing with the increased ubs from tier this season

[manic salmon]

funny how

deathstalkers will never be even close to what trickster provides for sub

[swift tinsel]

They abandoned it

Fully

[manic salmon]

remember when they nerfed

dsm for sub on ptr

[swift tinsel]

The tier set nerf was hilarious

Bc it makes no sense

Besides as a deterrent

That’s the only thing I can think of

Because it’s numerically behind

[manic salmon]

i like cut the grass more

[swift tinsel]

Then it’s nerfed

[plush glen]

who at blizzard ok'd this

[swift tinsel]

And also plays terribly and no part of that was addressed

[hazy breach]

Its still used in pvp

[manic salmon]

pvp

[hazy breach]

They obviously couldve just nerfed it in pvp

But probably said fuck it and nerfed both

[swift tinsel]

Ye PvP is entirely insular

[dusk stone]

And give rogue development time

[swift tinsel]

Lmao

[manic salmon]

dont worry

SURELY

next reset

[swift tinsel]

We’ve been asking for that for years

[manic salmon]

we get 25% of rogue bugfixes

[swift tinsel]

And then they add more via tier

So it’s a net gain of bugs

😂

[manic salmon]

i woildnt be surprised

[dusk stone]

Well at least they fix some

[swift tinsel]

No it literally was

[manic salmon]

if current assassination bugs stat until 11.2.5

or until midnight launches

[swift tinsel]

They fixed rotten storm bug

[manic salmon]

the fact that any slash of cut the grass eats cold blood

[swift tinsel]

At a time when we no longer rotten storm

[manic salmon]

is hilarious

[swift tinsel]

And also ‘fixed’ backstab fw from the front

Thanks guys

[dusk stone]

Meh rotten storm is ok

[hazy breach]

Coup de Grace has a 1.2 second GCD instead of 1s```
If anything gets fixed i'd expect it to be these

[dusk stone]

Finality isnt amazing

[swift tinsel]

I would hope

It’s a different shade of the RS one

[manic salmon]

yup

its so ass

sometimes im at 4/7 st points

i cut the grass

[dusk stone]

If we had 2 ranks of finality with current build at no cost it would be a lot better

[swift tinsel]

Was saying earlier it’s just more in-your-face now bc we’re couping so much more

[manic salmon]

and im expecting less than 7 st by the end

[hazy breach]

Fixing that might collaterally fix the finality bug, but not sure

[swift tinsel]

So would removing SF

[manic salmon]

hopefully

[swift tinsel]

Plz god

Idc if they put a replacement there

[hazy breach]

4p working with shadowed finisher would be nice, but not something im expecting

[swift tinsel]

Just yeet that shit

[manic salmon]

whats shadowed finisher

[hazy breach]

a talent

[swift tinsel]

Honestly expecting no fixes or changes to our tier set

[manic salmon]

obviously

[swift tinsel]

They kept clone gamble the whole season

Can’t imagine SF fixes are easy

[manic salmon]

spaghetti code

i mean sub is in a decent place atm

i dont think we will be receiving any changes

[swift tinsel]

It is yeah, just some parts are dumb

[dusk stone]

Sub is in a good place atm

[swift tinsel]

Numerically mostly fine

[dusk stone]

Better than decent

[swift tinsel]

It’s the bugs and rough edges that need addressing

Some of which lead to buffs

[manic salmon]

i still cant believe

cold blood bug is a thing

or that assa coins can give you combo points

[swift tinsel]

Wym that’s par for the course

[dusk stone]

I rly want to play a non shit version of DS sub

[manic salmon]

or that one slash of cut the gross eats cold blood

[dusk stone]

I prefer the class fantasy

[swift tinsel]

I mean if you pretend only one hero tree exists as a dev you only have to throw out one fix for one tree every 9 months

[dusk stone]

Maybe it gets fixed in midnight

[swift tinsel]

And it doesn’t even have to be a good fix, look at how they added a blades interaction with nimble

[manic salmon]

im p sure

all devs are off to work on middy night

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[dusk stone]

If evis was aoe and you gave ds sub 10% aura buff

It would be fine

[swift tinsel]

Nah still weak af

[manic salmon]

if my grandmother had wheels

[swift tinsel]

And shit gameplay with mark

[manic salmon]

she would be a bike

[swift tinsel]

And fatal still a baby hit and bugged

[hazy breach]

Deathstalkers mark cannot be reduced below 3 while Darkest Night is up
Idk im most baffled by this one

[swift tinsel]

And singular bugged

[dusk stone]

Well i did say evis as aoe

[manic salmon]

[dusk stone]

So mark gameplay better

[manic salmon]

abusing this on assassination for singular focus

[hazy breach]

Because that bug literally bricks the entire gameplay loop

[swift tinsel]

Try playing with the tier set

[hazy breach]

Of getting 2 darkest nights in dance

[dusk stone]

Yeah thats a problem

[burnt ridge]

im switching to sub, for m+, why the build recomended on wowhead and icyveins is diferent from the top .io rogues?

[swift tinsel]

I tried playing it without shadowcraft bc resets can fuck you over

And it was the worse gameplay

[dusk stone]

I was like am i misunderstanding the interactions with symbols

[swift tinsel]

Bc it’s agonizingly slow

[dusk stone]

Because that seems bad

[hazy breach]

Very little difference overall, but some people do play the ones recommended by the guides

[dusk stone]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[burnt ridge]

whats the main difference?

[swift tinsel]

Only symbols with tier set can consume marks with DN up

[burnt ridge]

cold blood?

[hazy breach]

Most play tea

[manic salmon]

i love my cold blood

[dusk stone]

Eleem you have TR on your guide as the m+ build

Any particular reason why

[hazy breach]

To avoid that exact question

Since it doesnt really matter

[dusk stone]

Its better for newer ppl ig

Was just curious

[hazy breach]

Not really

Skipping nado is ig

But finality VS rotten is completely whatever

[dusk stone]

Yeah i do not understand nado myself

Wtf is its purpose

We spread rupture with rs

Why nado

Casual runs it too

[hazy breach]

Does it faster

1 builder for 4 casts of rupture

Is better than 4 builders for 4 casts

[dusk stone]

What are you giving up for nado

Finality?

[hazy breach]

Veiltouched

[dusk stone]

K

Is it good?

[hazy breach]

But nado should definitely either get reworked or atleast prevent shadowcraft from refunding while its active

And it also doesnt work with blades, since we used it on ST during ptr when it did

So if you hit 4 targets youll only get 5 cp, even during blades

[dusk stone]

A small amount of our dmg is magic then if veiltouched isnt a big deal

Vdh was like 30k buff for us last patch so it cant be much

If it wasnt 15 or 20

[warm marlin]

@hazy breach do you happen to know how cast time for events in logs works?

it seems to be a bit prior to when the spell actually goes off, is the log displaying the time at which it was queued?

[dusk stone]

Nado gameplay would be like rupturing when gather is rlly split go into nado finish ruptures

And flag

Seems ok

[solar thicket]

any macro to not over stack tea?

[stuck timber]

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

[azure thicket]

so i just heard outlaw isn't supposed to use sinister strike if it's the only builder for coup de grace available and they just send at 5cp etc

is it the same for sub

[lucid jackal]

Somewhat

[desert horizon]

can someone explain how this netherprism trink works and ideal times to use it

[lucid jackal]

It does damage, and it build stacks

Using it gives u agi equal to the stacks it has

Use it with blades

[bronze hatch]

Its agility spymaster web

[viral phoenix]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

only thing to add is you dont need to macro it to blades because there's enpugh cases where you want to send flag and not prism esp in keys

No need to overkill a forced 4pack like on dawn

You get to 18 stack dmg the boss after and its strong

[runic sinew]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tranquil sorrel]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/74823594?difficulty=3&spec=Subtlety&class=Rogue Sub is not going well, anyone able to check this out and help?

[idle aurora]

does blackpowder work on find weakness?

or just evisc

[dry flame]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[prime raft]

without sim lft is better than right for sub correct

[idle aurora]

anyone know 😄

[azure thicket]

haste stat bad

[tribal blade]

ok timed a 17 streets with horrible tier set rng

[dusk stone]

Grats

[tribal blade]

the feeling of low rolling tier

is horrible

kinda feels like you're playing without the 4pc equipped

[round latch]

wait what finality bug

!finality

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[main ridge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[round latch]

ah not the entirety of coup

i thought RS dmg wasnt buffed

ah says that further below as well,nvm

[rancid cypress]

I swapped to sub for M+ but I feel like my damage should be higher can anyone tell me any major issues they are seeing with my gameplay in this +10 halls. any information would be great thanks https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vk9P2CMqT4RhtyB8?fight=last&type=damage-done

[tranquil sorrel]

What does low rolling tier mean?

I dont understand how tier works at all lol man this spec has my head spinning

[alpine wraith]

the more unseens you proc the more they can double proc

then you get more coups

that give more cdr that give more secret techniques

that gives more unseens

so if you dont proc extra unseens everything goes to the shitter

[stoic token]

i see some variety in m+ what is the difference betweent playing thistle tea vs cold blood and rotton vs no rotton

[wispy crystal]

How does secret technique give more unseens?

Doesn't unseen only proc from Shadowstrike / Backstabs?

[swift tinsel]

Disorienting Strikes hero talent

makes next 2 backstabs/strikes guaranteed to proc unseen blade

[shrewd lantern]

so you need either a proc from tier

or thousand cuts

to get coup immediately

[wispy crystal]

Oh right, I didn't understand the tooltip of "ignoring the cooldown of unseen blade".

So it can proc without having to wait out the 20s window right?

[alpine wraith]

yea you get 2 procs

[tribal blade]

yeah it's a horrible feeling

it's kinda crazy i still topped dps in that dungeon even with bad rng during quite a few cd sets

[open glade]

what do you guys think - for me should i just craft a ring since i'm still stuck with some low rings?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7obLnYKse2upd7HvGi4J2z

or wait and see if i get rings from DB / Priory before crafting?

ring is safest if i get say myth track neck / ring next week right?

[shrewd lantern]

you can also do delves if you have keys

i've gotten like 2-3 vers mast hero rings from that shit...

[open glade]

yah i've tried

i gave up

kept giving me haste crit daggers

LOL

[tribal blade]

there's quite a few good rings for us in all content this season

if you want immediate upgrade then yeah crafted ring would be it

[shrewd lantern]

i think only myth track vers mast is m+ vault?

or buying a boe

[tribal blade]

we don't just want vers mast now

[shrewd lantern]

yeah true

[tribal blade]

crit+mast and cit+vers works too

[shrewd lantern]

can also use logic gate alpha

omega kinda meh

[tribal blade]

i have that ring yeah

[open glade]

wait why

[shrewd lantern]

its probably our most accessible decent stat ring

on myth at least

[open glade]

guides said just vers mast?

[shrewd lantern]

you're gonna hit dr

if you full send vers mast

[open glade]

oh

how can i tell?

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i mean people were already hitting dr last season

[tribal blade]

not just that, crit is a good stat for us

[shrewd lantern]

that too

[tribal blade]

critting more in cds= more dmg

[shrewd lantern]

more fw

etc

[tribal blade]

honestly for M+ yes

having higher crit makes a difference

you can storm a few times on gathers to spread ruptures

and most mobs will have FW

[shrewd lantern]

its nice sin and sub are pretty interchangeable

swap a haste neck and ring or two

and you good

[hazy knoll]

i think ive hit dr

[tribal blade]

when you're the only person who held cds at the end of 1st boss 17 ecodome

because the charged sentinels fuck

and we wiped to it lol

[shrewd lantern]

dk almost losing to the tank

lmao

[tribal blade]

it was his key and he was like 3200

so that's understandable

no shame, just funny

[open glade]

holy hell

plz teach me

just started this week

on the rogue

[hazy knoll]

1: press your cds

[shrewd lantern]

thats sub damage with cds

[tribal blade]

that's not overall, just the 1 pull we wiped

[shrewd lantern]

and probably 18 stack prism

[tribal blade]

that pull just spamming evis

no BP

[hazy knoll]

you're the DK in that pull without them

welcome to sub

[open glade]

so i just got 4 set

and i' m strugglign to understand

when i should be spamming evis to proc coup

during dance window

vs just spamming black powder

in big packs

[shrewd lantern]

watch your escalating blade stacks

when that shit goes to 4 your next evis becomes coup

[tribal blade]

you just send coup asap during cds

[open glade]

i'm a dumb dumb

[tribal blade]

as soon as it procs

[open glade]

is that shown in this tracker?

but say you don't have coup

[tribal blade]

i have a huge WA to yell at me when i have coup

[open glade]

is it better to spend a few coups

i mean evis

to get coup during a big pack?

or just black powder?

[shrewd lantern]

is it the unseen icon

idk whos pack that is

[open glade]

one of the wowhead ones

[hazy knoll]

depends on what u want in the pack

do you need just aoe? bp

[open glade]

so if i want prio damage on a target, just spend on evis / coup?

[hazy knoll]

do you want to just fuck up the big mob? you'd evi and coup

[shrewd lantern]

coup is prio regardless

unless you want to hold it for cds

for a few

[open glade]

got it

[tribal blade]

nah i just kinda did my own from an existing one

[shrewd lantern]

you dont center your auras?

what the helly

[chrome palm]

schizophrenia auras

[tribal blade]

my WAs are an abomination

avert your gaze

[shrewd lantern]

i dont even track fazed, i just have eleem's wa

[hazy knoll]

https://wago.io/81tp_gblE

[chrome palm]

looks like zorthas weak auras

[shrewd lantern]

that shows an icon when coup is ready but fazed isnt up

[hazy knoll]

here's the one i use in mine

@ 4 you have coup

[tribal blade]

bro my WAs are so bad lol

but i don't care

[shrewd lantern]

ngl i track escalating

[tribal blade]

do you know woldo

the outlaw

[shrewd lantern]

but i barely look at it

[chrome palm]

i do not

[shrewd lantern]

unless im in downtime

[tribal blade]

he's a good rogue

but i've seen his UI

it's the most cursed shit i've ever seen haha

but he does really good dam

[chrome palm]

i dont know how some of these people play lmao

[hazy knoll]

i could probably make mine show the coup icon at 4 but i just see 4 and wait for it

[tribal blade]

typcial zoomer

[shrewd lantern]

i mean have you seen max

look at the warlock in ID's ui

mf has everything shifted to the left

[hazy knoll]

that dude's vods are hard to watch

[shrewd lantern]

idk if arcinde still plays

or streams

[tribal blade]

speak of the devil, woldo is queueing his 16 halls atm

i timed that shit today and i'm not going back

[shrewd lantern]

you know whats funny

[tribal blade]

screw that place

[shrewd lantern]

i redid my cp/energy bar start of df to account for kyrian blue pts

then blizz removed ER

[warm marlin]

i have video and log evidence of this occurring now, this is 100% a bug. combo point refund occurs almost 900ms after the rupture cast (around the time symbols was applied)

[shrewd lantern]

idk im also in the minority i realize

of people that didnt hate ER

[tribal blade]

it's very weird for me playing with 200ms, i get delays on when coup procs

so i have to be very wary not to spell queue a strike

[left ledge]

it is if you sod -> sod runs out but you have supercharger still -> rupture then sod

no matter how long you wait

even if you wait 10 seconds

it will refund

[warm marlin]

yes those seem to be the conditions ive observed

not sure why supercharger would be connected to shadowcraft refunds though

[graceful rock]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[warm marlin]

some spaghetti in the background

[left ledge]

🍝

[warm marlin]

its not just rupture btw

[left ledge]

yeah its anything

its the supercharger interaction

[warm marlin]

well at least its counterplayable by doing dance symbols instead

surely my muscle memory will allow that

[shrewd lantern]

my muscle memory still does dance bs then symbols

from s2

XD

wasnt that to not munch rotten on a bs cast

[warm marlin]

iirc it simmed equal so i didnt do it

[modest coral]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[warm marlin]

@hazy breach @vale pine this is not in the bug list and its not relevant for the majority of scenarios but it is very annoying

sht stacked to 7+ and supercharger combo points remaining, but symbols has ended -> cast a finisher, then have your next cast be sod = refund will occur, regardless of the time you wait between finisher and sod

[limpid sage]

Anyone else had the issue of it suddenly spamming backstab multiple times in a row when pressing sectec?

Or is my 1 key just semistuck

[swift tinsel]

well this explains everything

[lavish rose]

started using focus macros

[swift tinsel]

forums are funny

[deft rampart]

Hello. I am using Prism and Antenna. In Raid, Should I use Prism on every Shdow Blades cooldown(90-second), or on every 180-second cooldown? Please advise.

[warm marlin]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[deft rampart]

Thanks you !

[warm marlin]

no problem

[rocky ocean]

How fortunate that they left sub in a solid state before giving up on tuning because of midnight

[vagrant fulcrum]

Idk the pure st is kinda wack

[lucid jackal]

It's okay to have weaknesses

Subs strengths are on full display this raid

[kind river]

I've been having success with sub lately but tbh I don't even track fazed, probably an error on my part

[stiff raft]

Hi! I’m all new to sub and having a blast. But can’t wrap my head around when to use and not to use black powder. I’ve read and been told all kinds of differents things, for info I do keys from 10-13 currently and only raid hc

[kind river]

it only affects you outside of cds anyway right

because sectec applies fazed

[vagrant fulcrum]

Fazed is just a reminder to backstab tbh

If it’s close to dropping

[uneven fern]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[uneven fern]

4 targets

[stiff raft]

Ah! Tyvm

[prime raft]

what is the prism WA

[open glade]

how do we sim as sub?

like what settings

[dusk stone]

By clicking the button

says 'quick sim' 'top gear' 'dungeon slice'

[open glade]

oh we use dungeon slice'

not ST?

what about for raid cleave

[dusk stone]

Its all the same gear what type doesnt change

[lucid jackal]

St patchwork

[tribal blade]

wtf another low roll dungeon

i think today the blizz gods have decided to bless me with low rolling

[open glade]

what's the reason for running talents like the rotten, shuriken tornado

instead of the baseline m+ build on wowhead?