the fact that they have 4 mages ready to be subbed in at a moments notice on a boss thats stronk
#subtlety
open vortex
it is pretty close to vault so could just wait till then as well
grizzled sphinx
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
short radish
goes to show the state of mage vs rogue
tribal blade
yup
split garden
yea i mean this is the current mental gymnastics im doing, i have streets shoulders which r like bis i think and i would like to keep them
open vortex
well max said right after the race, if they knew how good sub was on last two
short radish
heard from a guy that said max said "they would have brought more sub rogues if they had them"
short radish
runic trail
They can be shot down
open vortex
prism + rogue op*
tribal blade
haha wonder how outlaw is so high up there
short radish
one guy (not acutally guy) making it look good
bleak night
padding on araz and soulbinder probably
open vortex
soulbinder + araz + soulhunters
bleak night
and soulhunters
tribal blade
in before "dmg amps don't matter with steady state dps as much as you think"
haughty rose
at which number of mobs do we switch from backstab to shuriken storm? and do we ever switch from shadowstrike to shuriken storm?
tribal blade
at which number of mobs do we switch from backstab to shuriken storm? and do we ...
3 you start using storm
also the consensus is always use strike unless it's between coups
in blades
chrome palm
i mean to be fair
sub niche rn is amp phases
and "aoe damage"
nimble is a touch strong rn
plucky parrot
yep
open vortex
nimble is p good and bp is p good
willow pawn
Give assa nimble to compensate bugs
plucky parrot
and the fact that you can full send evis and still do meaningful st is great for the last 2
willow pawn
Problem solved
open vortex
real
haughty rose
also the consensus is always use strike unless it's between coups
hold on, you mean i use shuriken storm between first and second coup with 4 set? i assume this is because unseen blade doesnt build up if the second coup procs from 4 set right? but what does blades have to do with it?
plucky parrot
hold on, you mean i use shuriken storm between first and second coup with 4 set?...
blades gives you full cp with whatever generator you use
modest river
full cp if you mean shadow blades
plucky parrot
So you’re not wasting ST stacks
willow pawn
You can have two coups in blades I think
plucky parrot
If you were to do it outside of blades
willow pawn
2x2
haughty rose
ah ok but at 7+ mobs blades won't matter since i get full CP anyway no?
chrome palm
its also 20%+ increase damage
cosmic dust
also the consensus is always use strike unless it's between coups
Why exactly do we storm inbetween coup I dont unterstand it, pretty new to sub
open vortex
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
open vortex
numero dos
tribal blade
Why exactly do we storm inbetween coup I dont unterstand it, pretty new to sub
any unseen procs you get between coups will go to waste
cosmic dust
Thx!
tribal blade
it's worth doing now because every strike is a potential 2 procs
well also the 4pc
i'm very tired
cosmic dust
What can proc with unseen? Isnt it just the dot and 5% dmg?
tribal blade
What can proc with unseen? Isnt it just the dot and 5% dmg?
yeah the instant dmg and debuff
you proc unseen from backstab/strike
cosmic dust
And why is it bad to proc it inbetween coup?
tribal blade
you can't stack towards a new coup during that time
until you consume the 2nd coup
so it's usually very likely you'll proc with a strike during that 1 gcd
so preventing that waste is a gain 😉
tribal blade
ofc!
real delta
so it's usually very likely you'll proc with a strike during that 1 gcd
And that means you have to wait another 20s (or until Thousand Cuts RNG blesses you)?
tribal blade
And that means you have to wait another 20s (or until Thousand Cuts RNG blesses ...
or until you reset with sectec yeah
if we were able to track resets
holy crap
the dream
no more fishing backstabs in aoe
haughty rose
__**Coup de Grace Optimizations:**__
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finisher...
number one means i simply spam backstab/storm even tho im full CP?
plucky parrot
no more fishing backstabs in aoe
but my backstab soup
open vortex
yup
real delta
And in cases when I have Coup de Grace ready, but don't have Fazed, and SecTech is on cooldown ... what am I supposed to use as a finisher? Black Powder even in single target?
open vortex
just building sht stacks and building up to coup at the same time
open vortex
was that for me?
ye
haughty rose
okok thank you. crazy that this gives higher dps i would've never thought about that myself
another question, don't know if it would make any difference but in my logic it would make sense to hit first coup right after flag and second coup right after first sec tech during blades to have it empowered by sod and danse macabre right?
assuming i don't want to apply a rupture like i would on pull after flag
sly shore
fr*nch cosplay
carmine portal
My holiday is over man i cant wait to do keys
keen dome
fr*nch cosplay
I can't wait to use these
chrome palm
fr*nch cosplay
My Teto transmog is one step closer to fruition…
tribal blade
i ran a 16 priory with my sham guildie today
and it's actually kind of insane how little dmg you take as sub
over an entire key
way less than everyone else
keen dome
Yeah, it rules
It's really interesting how sturdy I feel in keys
versus how sturdy I feel in Mythic raid content
tribal blade
it's not just a little bit less, it's WAY less haha
i feel sturdy as hell in raid tbh
so long as my healers have a pulse
when they're gray parsing healing yeah i feel horrible lol
keen dome
Maybe it's just my inexperience at that level, but I've noticed I'm vulnerable to rotting down extremely hard if they're bad.
Because while I can mitigate stuff, just general rot is so impactful as I have no self sustain tool.
It felt very bad on Plexus
tribal blade
yeah rogue is not good with rot dmg in raid
keen dome
Yeah
tribal blade
yeah i was bleeding out on plexus a few times
keen dome
I pugged 2/8M and it was.. an experience.
carmine portal
You LOVE pugging dont you haha
keen dome
I am the puglord
tribal blade
yeah true this raid tier it's gonna be easy to get 2/8M
keen dome
yeah true this raid tier it's gonna be easy to get 2/8M
oh man you don't even know
Plexus was a 50+ pull, 10+ pug experience
Do you know how many pulls I have on Soulbinder?
1
keen dome
I really really really hope this is the design going forward where the first boss is harder than anything on heroic.
Because it is an extremely good pug check
tribal blade
loom will be rough with pugs until we have more gear
runic trail
The moth ain't too bad, definitely puggable
Pylon coordination will be a pain in the arse though
keen dome
The moth immediately falls into WA pug hell and I will peace out of any group doing that
Because it is not worth the effort
keen dome
Ye
We didn't even play Soulbinder well
It just died on the third add wave
Boss does nothing
tribal blade
soulbinder is a massive failure of a boss
alpine wraith
you will be able to pug loom with gear
keen dome
Plexus was a 9 minute behemoth of a fight though
alpine wraith
so you get to p2 before more than 2 or 3 pylons are up
keen dome
soulbinder is a massive failure of a boss
It reminds me a lot of Eggnog in DF S1.
tribal blade
they could have just made it so you HAVE to break adds out
keen dome
I think it's fine. Sometimes an easy boss is good
And I think the pugging curve this tier is perfect. First boss very hard. Thrid boss a joke. 2/8M very achieveable in pugs. Happy.
tribal blade
i think a 1 shot mythic boss in a pug is weird
keen dome
On week 3 with 3%? I dunno, I think it makes sense with how damage dependant it is
void ocean
Lolbinder Naaz
keen dome
And Plexus has a higher DPS check
And mechanically it just requires tanks to organize knockback
Although I do agree that one pull is pretty comical and I was expecting 4 - 5
void ocean
its like DF s3, Kazzara was a lot harder than that door boss
void ocean
ye, s2, sry
keen dome
And in pugging it's extremely healthy because it means you don't deal with broken vault slot issues as much.
Whereas S3 DF you had Igaraa who was BRUTAL in pugs.
And Gnarlroot just fell over
But ye, I hope this is the norm. Hard boss 1.
void ocean
last season vexie lol
keen dome
Yep
runic trail
I'm a huge fan of the first boss being harder because it's a good check.
I remember undermine pugs going to cauldron before vexie to filter out chaos players
keen dome
Yep
keen dome
I remember undermine pugs going to cauldron before vexie to filter out chaos pla...
This is why I consider the S3 setup a lot healthier for pugging.
mint swift
We all know that every mythic reclear was bundled with at least 1 vexie wipe
void ocean
i mean, tbh mythic shouldnt be puggable unless super geared
if they made mythic puggable this early that means norm and hc would be like non existent
keen dome
I don't think 2/8M is a bad thing. Esp as a vast majority of pugs won't be doing it
Which is why Boss 1 being so hard is good. It stops people doing content they aren't ready for.
I do not think the entire raid should be puggable, nor will it ever be. but the first vault slot being puggable by decent groups is just good for the game.
More people doing the content and getting it, seeing they can do the content. More likely to look into raiding Mythic to progress further. Less friction in getting some Myth pieces for people who don't want to (or can't) commit to a raid schedule, etc.
void ocean
I mean, if ur first step into mythic is gonna be pug, u gonna have baaaad time
for me its more for a seasoned mythic raiders who know how to conduct themselves
and yea, maybe not in a position to commit
keen dome
It's def a balance, though. I think the 4/8M in nerubar wasn't good for it.
slate marlin
4/8M is where a lot of guilds got stucked as well
keen dome
Yep
keen dome
It created a situation where some people thought they were a LOT better than they were, didn't improve, then had a horrible time in Undermine. it creates false expectations which is dangerous for the puggign scene.
This season is probably the best it's ever been for pugging in terms of healthiness and attitude though.
drifting fable
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
steel bronze
New to sub, is it normal to struggle with energy outside of CDs in m+ or am i just misusing symbols?
alpine wraith
yes it is normal
torn dove
Is thistle tea vs cold blood close in m+? Guides recommend thistle tea but most people seem to play play cb. Is it pref?
proper vortex
can someone send me the best m+ build, ive seen like 1000 different builds and i don't know which is correct
short radish
can someone send me the best m+ build, ive seen like 1000 different builds and i...
!guid
!guide
short radish
whatever is on wowhead
honestly
it doesnt matter what you pick
they're probably all correct
just play whats comfy
hazy plank
hello guys i didnt find in the disc what is the best fight style to use to sim for M+ for sub
short radish
hello guys i didnt find in the disc what is the best fight style to use to sim f...
dungeonslice
hazy plank
ty
split garden
do u guys keep both netherprism and araz unmacroed in to button or do u macro araz into shadow blades still
alpine wraith
macro /use 13 and /use 14 to blades and also have a diff bind for prism
zealous flint
yo, what kinda overalls are you guys getting on Gambit?
alpine wraith
for when you hold for too long and forge is ready again
torn dove
How bad would it be to macro symbols to sectec? I am outlaw one trick and this is a lot of off gcd buttons
fallow nimbus
It's bad
mossy spruce
When I sim coup de grace is always my top damage dealer, according to details it's never even close with nimble flurry and sectec always on top. Is there anything I could be doing wrong? (patchwerk)
mossy spruce
When I sim coup de grace is always my top damage dealer, according to details it...
or is it that raidbots combine nimble flurry into coup de grace?
feral barn
yo, what kinda overalls are you guys getting on Gambit?
Around 6.8M in +13 if i remember correctly from yesterday
clever delta
On council fight do I stab to build coups or storm between dances
alpine wraith
When I sim coup de grace is always my top damage dealer, according to details it...
coup is only top on st
grim badge
For big momma would you use CDs on pull and again for the 2nd amp? Or save for 1st amp
sage raft
i did ask this a few days ago, but i couldnt find any information on wowhead.
kann u guys tell me, how to sim sub-rogue ?
thank you !
remote shuttle
For big momma would you use CDs on pull and again for the 2nd amp? Or save for 1...
Send on cd, Just hold if amp phase is coming very soon
wheat elk
remote shuttle
Nether + forge Is huge
shadow lance
Correct
vale kernel
!gear
wicked joltBOT
zealous flint
Around 6.8M in +13 if i remember correctly from yesterday
ty, just trying to get some reference to how im doing. did 6.2mil in a +10 just then.
night sparrow
Hey, what's the amount of targets required to have Shuriken Tempest worth to press instead of SS to avoid wasting unseen blades proc betweeen Coups during Dance+symbols outside of 1mn30 ?
timber hornet
should you cast symbol and dance in a macro + another bind for symbo or cast them both indivudualy all the time
feral barn
should you cast symbol and dance in a macro + another bind for symbo or cast the...
Don't macro dance + symboles
alpine wraith
dont macro symbols and dance
alpine wraith
Hey, what's the amount of targets required to have Shuriken Tempest worth to pre...
if there are at least 6 targets
basically when you dont waste Sht
timber hornet
aite and always symbol before dance right?
tepid trellis
Hey, what's the amount of targets required to have Shuriken Tempest worth to pre...
neutral on 4, gain at 6
feral barn
aite and always symbol before dance right?
Always have symbols up on dance*
shadow lance
Hey, what's the amount of targets required to have Shuriken Tempest worth to pre...
My brain exploded trying to understand the tech
latent crown
!wa
wicked joltBOT
pale rock
Double on use trinket suitable for sub?
shadow lance
Prism/Forge yes
night sparrow
Double on use trinket suitable for sub?
Playing forge+prism atm, feels pretty good
pale rock
Forge / lily?
shadow lance
No
limpid sage
do u guys keep both netherprism and araz unmacroed in to button or do u macro ar...
Don't have forge trinket but I would just keep it bound to sblades and use netherprism before pressing sblades for big burst
shadow lance
Just use lily on cd and get a passive trink
pale rock
So lily over forge, and a passive trinket?
shadow lance
Rofl
alpine wraith
just use forge on pull then at 3 etc
shadow lance
No sure forge is better if you use every 3 min
tepid trellis
lily will likely do better
alpine wraith
well you can sim it tbh maybe after the nerfs it is better
past cobalt
Lily and soleah working ok for now
limpid sage
No sure forge is better if you use every 3 min
think it sims more actually
shadow lance
think it sims more actually
Not for me
limpid sage
without accounting for holding cds for specific pulls/add events
tepid trellis
at higher ilvls probably
alpine wraith
yea if lilly sims more send it
limpid sage
but I'd prob run cursed idol over both of them if I had to choose 1 on use
without knowing how the channel works xd
is it cancellable?
shadow lance
6/6 hc lily highest but it's for a 5 m patchwerk
So forge is used only twice
Lily 4 times
limpid sage
yeah that's prob worst case scenario for forge as well
safe mural
19% haste is kinda big no? 😄
limpid sage
19% haste is kinda big no? 😄
are you playing sub with 19% haste
safe mural
came back from s1
limpid sage
that is cursed
alpine wraith
use higher ilvl on main hand first
shadow lance
Kekw
torn dove
If you're 665 i wouldn't worry too much about optimising stats yet
alpine wraith
also you can craft a 691 with only the spark
torn dove
Just get some gear
shadow lance
Don't want to play outlaw anymore?
safe mural
If you're 665 i wouldn't worry too much about optimising stats yet
yea just gone to +10 boosts
getting some gear
alpine wraith
or use the dimensius unchanted crest to craft 704
and triple check it is not the int dagger
we had a situation earlier
limpid sage
if you have pieces with vers/mastery at a lower ilvl I'd recommend simming it against stuff with haste on it
torn dove
and triple check it is not the int dagger
I did this once and my guild crafter noticed and didnt make it. My absolute goat
limpid sage
haste is such a shit stat for us that it might be an upgrade
shadow lance
Yes
limpid sage
ye
tepid trellis
no
safe mural
hmm what changed then?
shadow lance
So you got the buff during your blades
tepid trellis
flag lasts 24 seconds, blades lasts 16
safe mural
then should we wait for liek 8 sec to cast blades?
shadow lance
There's legit a spell by spell explanation on wowhead
safe mural
was checking icy veins
shadow lance
You also have the spell by spell sequence .in icy veins
scenic plover
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gCdAZBxRhFPi2m1CTNhfkc
did i do sth wrong or why is this sim so low?
split garden
Can I target swap during burst or do I need to dump into the target I flaged?
alpine wraith
can swap fine
just check if target has fazed and FW if you want to coup/evis
first
split garden
And fazed gets applied by any builder?
safe mural
1 question guys
torn dove
What command is it that shows the logs screenshot of the full burst sequence?
safe mural
should i double craft the weps?
tepid trellis
nah
alpine wraith
no fazed gets applied by unseen blades or secret technique
tepid trellis
off hand aint great
torn dove
!logs
tepid trellis
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gCdAZBxRhFPi2m1CTNhfkc
did i do sth wrong...
sim looks fine
tepid trellis
yes
scenic plover
how do i sim 700k lower as sub compared to outlaw or assa
scenic plover
crazy
vale pine
sub also performs equally bad in raid if you look at the pure single target fights
its just not very well tuned for it
tepid trellis
unless you are that one guy
vale pine
but we have rly good burst which helps us this tier
runic trail
Just high roll every pull, easy
scenic plover
idk i was expecting to do way more damage as sub, otherwise i can just stay outlaw i guess
alpine wraith
we have 2 guys now
the plexus one and the loom one
and i think there is one in frac too now?
shadow lance
idk i was expecting to do way more damage as sub, otherwise i can just stay outl...
Enjoy the down time
scenic plover
sub just seems so complicated with all those cds
scenic plover
idk i read the guide a few times and tried in a key only to do tank damage
tepid trellis
at the end of the day difficulty will always be subjective
shadow lance
I don't know, sub, just following the rules, you do correct damages
Outlaw got a lot of thing to do
And assa is braindead tier
In my humble opinion
tepid trellis
people find different things difficult
shadow lance
And ST speaking
vale pine
subtlety has its skill expression in cooldown management
its just that most classes/specs don't have real cooldown management anymore
and subtlety lives or dies based on good or bad execution
wild vine
Outlaw got a lot of thing to do
Kinda just high apm, which is easy for plenty people aswell. Its just a matter of what you are naturally good at, considering all three specs are different enough
safe mural
is assa still better then sub even its bugged?
scenic plover
what is sub apm?
mint swift
And assa is braindead tier
I mean when your inhaling poison fumes every 5 seconds it’s pretty easy to become literally brain dead
Does that make the easy rotation part of the class fantasy 
tepid trellis
what is sub apm?
around 60
vale pine
outlaw has most of its complexity in rtb
and you can trivialize it with a weakaura
which tells you when to reroll
the rest is just about using spells fast enough to fit the apm
carmine portal
I play outlaw realistically, every time i fire a weapon I take a break to reload it
I have a fake flintlock by my desk which i must reload
vale pine
lol
shadow lance
Kinda just high apm, which is easy for plenty people aswell. Its just a matter o...
Yes, high apm + stupid rules changing all the time depending your buffs proc
Rules that change every tier
Maybe I'm delu
Cuz I'm more or less comfortable on every spec
earnest canyon
according to the guides, we only use coup de grace when fazed is up. is there any situation (other than the fight ending) will we use it when unfazed is not up?
wild vine
Yes, high apm + stupid rules changing all the time depending your buffs proc
Afaik broadsids is the only buff that changes a rule and the apm are only high for wow standards, not really high in the grand scheme of things.
Rules changing every tier is by no means anything that adds to difficulty imo.
grim pewter
Ok I'll try to keep this tldr, just returned to rogue (in any sort of serious form) since legion, and I'm pretty overwhelmed with all the stacking passives. Played sub in legion and a bit since then so Im familier with the core kit. What would be the best way to learn the new stuff without having to re-learn the entire class from the ground up?
shadow lance
Afaik broadsids is the only buff that changes a rule and the apm are only high f...
You got things with True Bearing, in the past, it was depending the cdr buff
void ocean
Ok I'll try to keep this tldr, just returned to rogue (in any sort of serious fo...
read Fuu's guides
cant miss
shadow lance
But, high apm and high cd reduction is make it kinda more difficult to play perfectly 100% of the time
grim pewter
read Fuu's guides
sounds like a great start! Where might one find those?
shadow lance
Also, we just see it differently I guess
void ocean
!guide
void ocean
all 3 perfectly fine
void ocean
But, high apm and high cd reduction is make it kinda more difficult to play perf...
yea but id say mistakes r less punishing
when u have no cds
tepid trellis
according to the guides, we only use coup de grace when fazed is up. is there an...
not unless your 2nd coup from the 4set is timing out
grim pewter
all 3 perfectly fine
thank ya much! my last question until I finish up this reading; are there some kind of weakauras people are using to track the internal cd of unseen blade? "this effect may occur once every 20 sec" however Thousand Cuts "gives your autos a chance to refresh your opportunity to strike with unseen blade"
If you are in an aoe situation how do u know its time to weave in a shadowstrike instead of a shuriken storm.
tepid trellis
thank ya much! my last question until I finish up this reading; are there some k...
cant really track it
its a hidden buff
void ocean
u kinda feel it
tepid trellis
and with the new tierset
you get so many procs
that it kinda just keeps proccing
shadow lance
I fish when no Flawless up tbh
mint swift
God damn, did you return your catch and right click the buff, or did you keep it for yourself
void ocean
I fish when no Flawless up tbh
it causes big pike in ur dps
shadow lance
God damn, did you return your catch and right click the buff, or did you keep it...
All for me
void ocean
mint swift
All for me
Fair, pilot a man’s class and he will parse for a day, teach a man to play and he’s parsing all season
shadow lance
Exactly, I would not say better
shadow lance
it causes big pike in ur dps
Good one
mint swift
Thinking about it like that
I’m imagining marksman fishing up either a tiny can or a whale shark
grim pewter
so my understanding of m+ opener im seeing is like, backstab > flag > [ rup > sstorm] repeat until ruptures are set up but dont waste too much time here > symbol > sstorm > tech > SB + trinket + pot > [sstorm > black powder] repeat until tech is off cd. do a second symbol > sstorm > tech. then chill for a bit. somewhere in there is some shadow dance and shadow strikes missing.
mossy spruce
does coup de grace have prio over black powder?
scarlet oyster
so my understanding of m+ opener im seeing is like, backstab > flag > [ rup > ss...
ss refers to shadowstrike or shuriken storm ? 
void ocean
does coup de grace have prio over black powder?
yes
tepid trellis
so my understanding of m+ opener im seeing is like, backstab > flag > [ rup > ss...
dont need to flag while the tank is gathering and you are spreading ruptures
grim pewter
ss refers to shadowstrike or shuriken storm ? <:garf_sit:1334889429449314456>
shuriken storm, whoops 😅
tepid trellis
just wait for them to be grouped
void ocean
pop 18 stack Prism and delete em from the existence...
tribal blade
i really don't like flagging and then rupture spreading because you offset blades
tepid trellis
then send flag-rupture-dance+stab-sectech etc
scarlet oyster
shuriken storm, whoops 😅
then no it's wrong, you have to press shadowstrike during your shadowdance, outside of shadowdance, if there are 3+ targets and flawless form isn't up then you can press shuriken storm
grim pewter
then no it's wrong, you have to press shadowstrike during your shadowdance, outs...
that might just be the core thing I was missing in my rotation!
tribal blade
then no it's wrong, you have to press shadowstrike during your shadowdance, outs...
i think you mixed up fazed and flawless form
scarlet oyster
that might just be the core thing I was missing in my rotation!
tender patrol
Since im trying to get Rid of the Button Bloat, is it fine to Marco shadow Dance and Symbols together ?
scarlet oyster
i think you mixed up fazed and flawless form
yes mybad
tender patrol
Since u wanna press this always together ?
tribal blade
Since im trying to get Rid of the Button Bloat, is it fine to Marco shadow Dance...
no don't do that
tender patrol
Okay so I just Need to get rid of my Boomer Reactions
tribal blade
if you do that you'll have to delay your 2nd dance in cds to wait on sectec's cd
tender patrol
Hmm that makes sense
tribal blade
then no it's wrong, you have to press shadowstrike during your shadowdance, outs...
btw you can actually let flawless drop in aoe outside dance and just storm>BP
you're not doing big dps outside dance anyways and nimble doesn't do a whole lot at that time
casting backstab to fish for unseen procs can be a bit cursed
tender patrol
Switching from Warri/DK to Rogue definetly affords some New Keybinds
dusk stone
its 4 rows of buttons for me
tribal blade
yeah i wish sub could exist with similar keybinds as sin
dusk stone
12 x 4
tribal blade
so much free real estate on sin
tribal blade
so many of em yeah
tender patrol
Don’t even know what to use
Need to find smth New or Need to learn 2 Play with my mouse Buttons
scarlet oyster
i just think sub has a lot of redundant keys
what do you call redundant ? things like backstab becoming shadowstrike or the fact that you perma press the same 4 keys ?
shadow lance
btw you can actually let flawless drop in aoe outside dance and just storm>BP
I would not so coup proc in AoE
dusk stone
stealth bar and normal bar are just the same thing there is no change
shadow lance
And I would cycle the UB procs
dusk stone
im not sure what fuu means exactly but there's qol bloat in sub for sure
i have symbols/dance macro'd and also keep seperate binds for both, same for cb and sectec
scarlet oyster
casting backstab to fish for unseen procs can be a bit cursed
mmh alright
dusk stone
tea dance and dance is also seperate stuff ig if you really care
3k is done
i want to be out of ksl hell
tribal blade
I would not so coup proc in AoE
sorry i don't understand, you would or would not try to proc coup outside dance in aoe
dusk stone
think he means do
shadow lance
sorry i don't understand, you would or would not try to proc coup outside dance ...
I would keep Flawless up so when I use Coup, it deals in AoE
tribal blade
ah ok
maybe the rules have changed now, but doing that can really brick your energy
shadow lance
And keeping Flawless up means pressing bs, so it makes my cycle UB procs
Storm bricks my energy
dusk stone
coup auto flawlesses itself
scarlet oyster
sorry i don't understand, you would or would not try to proc coup outside dance ...
Do we use another symbol for the 2nd sectech even if the first one is still going ? just to get overcharged bonuses
tribal blade
and you're just guessing, so that 1 cast of backstab might actually be 2-3 sometimes
dusk stone
flawless time travels to before you cast coup
tribal blade
Storm bricks my energy
yeah but storm generates full CPs with 1 cast in aoe
backstab is 1
you will brick your energy faster with backstab
shadow lance
I'm just applying wowhead rules tbh
dusk stone
Do we use another symbol for the 2nd sectech even if the first one is still goin...
i believe so
tribal blade
could be different now
vale pine
what do you call redundant ? things like backstab becoming shadowstrike or the f...
things like shadowstrike turning into backstab would be a big benefit tbh
tribal blade
Do we use another symbol for the 2nd sectech even if the first one is still goin...
in cds yeah you'll symbols on the 2nd sectec
vale pine
for "you press the same keys"
thats every spec in the game
and sub isn't even that bad
some things feel like they could be updated for more qol
shadow lance
coup auto flawlesses itself
Wait, we sure about it?
dusk stone
yes
vale pine
e.g. cold blood could become a passive, because handling it with macros is annoying for most players
tribal blade
Energy is not relevant outside of cds
that's the thing, dead time outside dances aren't a huge deal, and if you just storm>bp once flawless drops you can keep up casting more finishers
in general
vale pine
symbols of death kinda feels redundant becuase the main diffrence to it and shadow dance does not exist anymore
tribal blade
i need to double check
vale pine
but i don't think combining both would be good
yes, you just storm-bp outside of dance
the rotation outside is boring
shadow lance
that's the thing, dead time outside dances aren't a huge deal, and if you just s...
Question is, do we prefer run a lot of finisher that deals a few damages or run faster to coup ?
dusk stone
i dunno myself, i think some specs should retain the complexity, rather its that others are way too easy
vale pine
well you also spread rupture
vale pine
i dunno myself, i think some specs should retain the complexity, rather its that...
I think complexity is good
dusk stone
i do not mean to be rude but with some of the newer sub players come here acting a certain kind of way
scarlet oyster
what is BP range ? it's not mentioned on the spell itself
vale pine
but i don't think complexity for the sake of it is
dusk stone
and its because they get away with so much
i actually corrected an assa player on spreading rupture
vale pine
if something is just complex to have multiple layers of spells attached
but has no gameplay impact
tender patrol
i dunno myself, i think some specs should retain the complexity, rather its that...
Ye like unholy they made it boring and easy
vale pine
its usually not good
dusk stone
i wouldnt mind sub being easier if other specs didnt have their ceiling near the floor
vale pine
find weakness or fazed for example
dusk stone
fazed can just become a permanent thing, i dont understand why its not
vale pine
i don't think subtlety has its celling near the floor
grim pewter
I'm back and still incredibly confused after reading the wowhead guide. duno why I cant get my head to wrap around the interaction of subs kit with the new hero talents. T.T
dusk stone
it only exists to randomly screw you over because you never pay attention to it anyway
vale pine
you have a lot of cooldown management min/max and situational choice
remote shuttle
I sometimes send a single BS in aoe, at full cp (fulled with shuriken) to snipe ub procs w/o losing stacks of ShadoTech to have em for dance+symbols do you think Is a good or bad habit @vale pine ?
tender patrol
Would you guys say focusing on all guides makes sense or just focus on one completely ?
I felt like on other classes for example the guides differ very hard in terms of reliance
dusk stone
no i'm saying if other specs didn't have the ceiling near the floor it would be fine (to me) to lower ours a bit
vale pine
sending backstab at full cp is never rly good
but you can use backstab to get ub to proc in aoe
scarlet oyster
I'm back and still incredibly confused after reading the wowhead guide. duno why...
I watched shindigg video, he basically explains wowhead guide, it's well made
vale pine
to get nimble back up
grim pewter
I watched shindigg video, he basically explains wowhead guide, it's well made
I totally spaced on checking yt for guides! you're totally right, wealth of information right there.
dusk stone
i do think a lot of people dont actively put in that much effort but we put in too much at some level
enhance is another offender in that way with the one build
grim pewter
I watched shindigg video, he basically explains wowhead guide, it's well made
just pulled it up, an hr worth of content is exactly the level of nuance I was looking for. tysm ❤️ ❤️
vale pine
i think its fine
to play a spec on 90% efficiency
it does not mean it has no higher celling tho
dusk stone
yeah i dont disagree
remote shuttle
but you can use backstab to get ub to proc in aoe
Isn't good if u doing to save shadowtec stacks to have back to back in dance?
Cuz a BS at 0 cp blast ur stack
dusk stone
sub is a niche for me atm, i'm not a perfect player by any means and i have things to fix within subs kit yet
but it is nice to have that in the bank
vale pine
i think subtlety is currently rewarding
dusk stone
but at the same time that might be asking too much from others
void ocean
bruh sub in raid is imho better on most bosses
vale pine
because of luck too
because netherprism is in part why we are soo good
and the spec wasn't in this position for the entire xpac
so i am happy more people try it
dusk stone
well that can be seen as a misnomer to a degree, there is no way they didnt take netherprism into account with out our tuning
our tuning kinda mid and prism is probably a factor
vale pine
tuning is done on averages
dusk stone
what i suspect is they wanted to get player participation in all specs currently higher than they are instead of just farming kpi for the new xpac
vale pine
netherprism does not make us better on average
if it did
you would see us at the top of wcl on mythic
dusk stone
we may have had better tuning or would receive it without prism maybe
i dont think you want a spec like sub on top basically ever because its a pain to learn compared to ret
vale pine
prism allows for the big burst moments
dusk stone
its actively a bad experience for many who would try
vale pine
most of tuning usuaully did not emphasize on burst
remote shuttle
Prism Is very good on use cuz usually we always got punished on sitting on CDS, with prism things change cuz we can hold and have more burst in a 20/30 secs (m+ mostly but also bosses were u hold flag for likes 30secs)
vale pine
prism gives dynamic
you can use it on 8 stacks
or 18 stacks
and both are valid options
void ocean
you would see us at the top of wcl on mythic
we were on top in rwf
dusk stone
i think 18 prism should have an additional reward
void ocean
2 most important fights*
dusk stone
balancing wise
remote shuttle
Ye as big issue Is managing CDS, this Is a way to manage better
dusk stone
its so much risk for moving damage around
vale pine
^
but thats subtlety
its balanced to have high risk
but the reward is typically balanced around doing average dps
for the world first, many times the dynamic of damage matters, it is why sub is often played
hazy breach
Prism Is very good on use cuz usually we always got punished on sitting on CDS, ...
Yet most People still play double on-use so they get punished
As you either overcap prism stacks or hold forge for way too long
fair cloak
Double on use is Just fun
remote shuttle
I just swapped from Lilly + pacemaker (hc) to forge+prism (hc) as result im doing like 8/8,5 M overall in keys were i was 7,5/8M with m+ trinkets
dusk stone
how much worse is prism + forge than prism + antenna in keys
remote shuttle
Im doing 14s and 15s
dusk stone
people ask every day and i dont know
brave harbor
how many ruptures can I apply after flag?
vale pine
Double on use is Just fun
think most would rather play one on use
dusk stone
a lot just think its better because dimensius and saladhaar logs
fair cloak
So they can figurę out timing for 2 on use
remote shuttle
At start using forge, 1,5 Min prism, then u have prism full every 3 Min and cover other flag window with forge
Is very fun
Then u adjiust if u have both ready and prism full stacks send prism
vale pine
how much worse is prism + forge than prism + antenna in keys
there is no correct answer, because m+ is too general of a gameplay area.
Basically someone doing a +8 vs. someone doing a +14 is diffrent, then your group constellation is etc.
But both are good, antenna gives higher burst during prism, while double on use gives you diffrent burst patterns
hazy breach
Less dopamine from high numbers
Idk number is bigger when you do send though
remote shuttle
We like dopamine
torn dove
We currently only coldblood on sectec right? So its ok to macro those two provided i also have a non-cb sectec bind?
fair cloak
Yes
hazy breach
But idk i see people sit on their forge for like 4:30 sometimes in keys and I just dont buy that its worth it
dusk stone
macro cold blood to sectec not sectec to cold blood
hazy breach
People in this context being streamers that do 19s
vestal escarp
kush shadowmentioned
hazy breach
Less than prism
fair cloak
Casual Kira and kush run double?
dusk stone
minus whatever you lose from the passive agi
tribal blade
yeah holding forge that long sounds cursed
dusk stone
oh its actually much less
the howevermuch agi decays
which is really bad because sub ramps a lot
short radish
just one heal 
hazy breach
The decay is 3.33% per second, its linear
tribal blade
just one heal <:Sadge:722115893810823179>
oh no you got the classic killed through cheat bs
dusk stone
we dont peak until like 16 seconds or so from what ive seen
flag surely caps out but we get huge sectec and other stuff
short radish
oh no you got the classic killed through cheat bs
yeah i knew i was going to get reflected to proc cheat
but i wasnt expecting to die through cheat
tribal blade
happened to me on plexus 1 time, got hit by multiple swirlies and killed. through cheat
tribal blade
but i wasnt expecting to die through cheat
i think it's the hits happening insta with cheat shenanigans
vestal escarp
we dont peak until like 16 seconds or so from what ive seen
At 16s your burst is over, you peak earlier depending when you send coup
dusk stone
nah an 18 stack prism uses 3 dances
short radish
i think it's the hits happening insta with cheat shenanigans
wooooo rogue bugs
tribal blade
it happened a lot on ovinax
short radish
2.4mill leech though 
tribal blade
take multiple swirlies and you just die the gcd cheat procs
dusk stone
its also 20 minimum with any kind of respect given to the rogue (outside of raid)
tribal blade
yeah a big reason why going left is hard banned now haha
short radish
can you cloak the damage reflect?
tribal blade
yes
short radish
kk
tbh im going to just ask for an external
as well
i should have called for SLT
and killed the party
tribal blade
honestly just run elus
short radish
nah i need cheat
tribal blade
so you can feint+evasion
haha i feel that
uh
vanish?
for 10% dr outside dance
dusk stone
i prefer the method of losing so many parses you care about you eventually just stop wanting to die
tribal blade
but you're not gonna kill yourself on that thing outside dance
tribal blade
so i should have the DR right?
should yeah, but it'll drop if you're in TFD dance
dusk stone
elusive is also rly good
tribal blade
between 1st and 2nd dance
dusk stone
its way way more good with tea build
tribal blade
i just always run elusiveness in keys because it's mandatory on higher keys
short radish
should yeah, but it'll drop if you're in TFD dance
oh yeah true
tribal blade
would rather run cheat tbh
dusk stone
i got 40 feints in a dawnbreaker the other day
tribal blade
oh yeah you'll 1 shot yourself with that haha
short radish
tribal blade
i've gone left side 1 time this season on higher keys
but going right makes the 1st boss turbo aids tbh
because you need an actual kick rotation
and if you miss 1 kick it can get very bad
obsidian crag
How much dps loss is to macro flag with shadow blades?
dusk stone
just dont do it
tribal blade
but i suppose it's "easier" to deal with a kick rotation on 1st boss than unavoidable aoe
fast fulcrum
!loot
wicked joltBOT
tribal blade
How much dps loss is to macro flag with shadow blades?
really don't do that
obsidian crag
really don't do that
Ok
But why?
tribal blade
i assume it's the same as last season, not sure if they buff or nerfed it
but it for sure made the healer's life hard
tribal blade
Ok
But why?
when you pop flag you do a bit of ramp
short radish
yeah im told right side you gotta have like 3.5 melee kicks or something
tribal blade
like it's a few gcds before you even go into dance
dusk stone
i have yet to pull right side in a competent pug group
they all do half of what youre suppose to
so its 4 mobs at a time until 1st boss and then that one takes ages too
tribal blade
yeah you need 1 kick for the main boss and a bunch on the other guy who spams bolts
did it on a 16 today with a group and we didn't preplan who was kicking what
was an absolute disaster lol
so reran it since it was resil with a kick rotation and went a lot better
dusk stone
for first boss?
tribal blade
yeah
tribal blade
it gets fucky because you'll get instances where the bosses are in poop and casting
so you need a range kick to snipe those ones
dusk stone
blind still works right
dusk stone
unsure but mini bosses and tings this season that blind shouldnt work on have been
also i was lied to about blind working on loaderbots in fg
dusk stone
the hell are you suppose to do
plush roost
Yell at your shaman to cap
tribal blade
i honestly prefer having the aoe mini boss on 1st boss because as rogue you just press feint and you're chilling haha
kick rotation makes my brain hurt
plush roost
i honestly prefer having the aoe mini boss on 1st boss because as rogue you just...
My healer says no
dusk stone
it feels like you dont do enough without 3 dances per window
tribal blade
My healer says no
t r u e
plush roost
Smosge
dusk stone
how bad is the aoe in higher keys
plush roost
Right side is like infinitly easier tho. Just needs 3.5 kicks
tribal blade
yeah it is easier for sure
plush roost
Or 3 and have some dr/meld a cast
tribal blade
at least on 16 you can eat 1 bolt and not get 1 shot
limpid sage
I don't see any rogues with neck crafted on murlokio
did I mess up
only 1 has crafted neck
dusk stone
i think neck and bracers are fine to craft
i just farmed a necklace in fg for my slot
plush roost
Crafting neck is pretty troll this early
limpid sage
how come
plush roost
Can use heroic crest on bracers with armband and weapon craft witb ascension
Gilded better spend elsewhere
limpid sage
ascension doesn't even sim better for me than 2x lens
plush roost
Yeah its a weapon embellishmeny
tribal blade
embels are pretty low impact anyways
plush roost
I mean focus lense may sim like 5k higher but ascension impacts your aoe and is better as fights prolong.
So no reason not to go ascension
dusk stone
usually i just craft my lowest piece of gear but gearing has been really easy this tier
i got all my hero stuff early
why is priory left side so much harder, just the 1st boss or?
rose kraken
!loot
wicked joltBOT
brave harbor
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
plush roost
ascension doesn't even sim better for me than 2x lens
And also can just farm big mama neck from fg. Zending gilded on jewelry early is usually lower value thats all
last gate
why is priory left side so much harder, just the 1st boss or?
its harder cause of the reflection of the lutenant
plush roost
But its not the end of the world
last gate
like if you play sin rogue or burst high during reflection you will probably melt your self xd
dusk stone
it last longer than cloak?
brave harbor
!wa
wicked joltBOT
dusk stone
oh its literally an absorb
plush roost
Theres a bunch of reasons. Its slower, you cant giga pull left side (neophytes are not a "giga pull") the shield wastes time, lots of casters and lightspawn
dusk stone
the absorb doesnt scale according to mdt?
plush roost
While right side is done in 3 pulls and u get lynx funnel on both sides
It definitely does or else the shield would pop instantly
dusk stone
well mdt scales the hp but not the shield apparently
you cant break it with cloak alone?
plush roost
You get like 3 in a high key
Like last season we'd have to rotate personals amz link on amara
Cause the shield lasts so long and does so much dmg
limpid sage
why is priory left side so much harder, just the 1st boss or?
There's overlap between aoe and leap which is near impossible to heal through
hazy breach
It got massively buffed compared to last season
limpid sage
I think it's those 2 abilities anyway
dusk stone
thats sad its such a nice fluff pull in 13s
limpid sage
just remember there's some kinda overlap
dusk stone
shield seems overtuned then?
plush roost
Yeah in high keys the leap answer was meld/vanish and if its down youre dead
Yeah they want it overtuned so people play right this season
Is what it is
Caster comps may play left still
But melee comp has no reason tp
tribal blade
it's overall much easier
dusk stone
because tanks refuse to pull more than 4 mobs
tribal blade
on right side
plush roost
Thats cause they dont have an entire season of keys to practice it on
Left side at the start of s2 was cursed as well
tribal blade
the fucking heal absorb is kinda bonkers when keys get higher
plush roost
Its just bad tanks being bad
fair anchor
because tanks refuse to pull more than 4 mobs
And then they pull 3 packs just before boss
dusk stone
thats still the experience people are going to have is what i mean though
dusk stone
more people will complain about right side even if its actually better just numerically
idk 13s are a great filter or thats my experience
you get the people trying to climb and then the ksl farmers
plush roost
I mean its literally, shaynemale + lynx and footman pack. Knight + lync caster pack. Miniboss + footman. Miniboss + lynx. Boss
nocturne birch
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
plush roost
4 pulls of 6-9 (nice) mobs
plush roost
People just gotta learn to stack and cc and its free
dusk stone
just irritating when my dps ends up being low and tank calls me out while doing 13's tank things
it seems very ok when its done right
plush roost
It be that way. I dont think sub is very good in 13s in general
Pulls too small, die too fast
dusk stone
my logs are ok for keys
i had almost a 8+ for db the other day
i would say 9 but thats pushing it
priory in general feels like a sin key
ty for the info
brave harbor
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
vestal escarp
the unseen blade is the deadliest
dusk stone
we had whispyr in here earlier
apparently someone wanted to ask him about sub it was very funny
acoustic matrix
Literally every ara kara key I join end with the first pull lmao
Idk why people are trying to be gigachads with that massive pack
cosmic fossil
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
void ocean
better than ending before last boss
cosmic fossil
anyone have shadow step foucs macro?
sage pond
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
cursive vapor
!stats
wicked joltBOT
The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste
valid pelican
Hi all. Been out the game for a bit and have a few questions; (thanks in advance)
-
How many targets do there need to be before SS and BP is better than BS and Evis (with Nimble Flurry)? I've read both 4+ and 7+ in different guides
-
Is it still good practice to not touch CDs about 30s before Flag and SB come back so you can fit 2 SDs into a SB window?
-
Is saving Coup procs with 4-set for your SD window by using BP worth it? If so, how long would you say the SD CD has to be before it's not worth it and does this apply to both multi and single target?
hazy breach
- 4 targets for BP, you dont really want to storm in dance
- Yes
- No
mossy spear
whats that addon people use in high pug keys that says "my focus target x" at beginning of dungeon?
tight monolith
whats that addon people use in high pug keys that says "my focus target x" at be...
its a wa
mossy spear
got a name for me?
tight monolith
mossy spear
thanks
tight monolith
no worries
stone patrol
sorry there are so many different m+ builds - the most play:
but the most of the time i see sub rogues plkaying:
lilac pendant
Do you lose agro when casting shadow dance?
dusk stone
use tea in keys you will hate yourself less
vale pine
Do you lose agro when casting shadow dance?
shadow dance applies a thread modifier to you, so you drop in agrro when you use it
vale pine
sorry there are so many different m+ builds - the most play:
what you play rly depends on preference
dusk stone
you desperately want improved shadow techniques for the cb builds but you cant rly take it
vale pine
e.g. inev got a lot more popular lately
and tea is in general better than cold blood
it also is easier to play due to vigor and the extra energy
shadow lance
I play Inev and CB
dusk stone
fuu the sims are taking into account running out of energy for finishers in the dslice sims?
for cb
vale pine
yes
shadow lance
I'm a bit frustrated cuz of finality bugged
swift tinsel
I never experience that idk
vale pine
the sim is basically not getting any benefits you don't get in game
and there is little explicit pooling involved
swift tinsel
And I play cb pretty much exclusively
stone patrol
it also is easier to play due to vigor and the extra energy
is it really harder to play CB? idk it dont feel bad to press it before ST
vale pine
pooling in general is fairly uncommon
dusk stone
its a thing for sure, i think its mostly in TFD dances that it can happen
swift tinsel
I only pool sht before flag or out of dance coup
tepid trellis
is it really harder to play CB? idk it dont feel bad to press it before ST
its just a tiny bit more mental bandwith
tawdry mountain
What is the best weakaura for sub rogue in your opinion?
vale pine
ever since i started working on the simulations, simply becuase modern design rarely benefits from it
swift tinsel
Even with tfd
dusk stone
unsure if pooling has anything to do with it or not
shadow lance
What is the best weakaura for sub rogue in your opinion?
The one you're comfortable with
swift tinsel
I can’t say I have ever waited on energy in cds
tepid trellis
"need to remember to CB the 2nd sectech in cds" vs "brrrrrrrrt"
vale pine
^
dusk stone
i did the other day
stone patrol
its just a tiny bit more mental bandwith
do you swap talents every key stealthi?
swift tinsel
Bc Inev exists and covers all of tfd dance
vale pine
also more energy from vigor
tepid trellis
no
stone patrol
which build are you playin?
tepid trellis
depends on the mood tbh, if i feel like tryharding a bit im playing CB
if im full laying down mode
i play t ea
dusk stone
I can’t say I have ever waited on energy in cds
i thought i was crazy the other day when it happened in an FG, then it happened again, was staring at shadowstrike with no ability to use finisher in cds
it lasts for multiple gcds too
stone patrol
if im full laying down mode
okay and right side is it a rotten or finalty angle?
tepid trellis
i play rotten
swift tinsel
i thought i was crazy the other day when it happened in an FG, then it happened ...
Are you playing inevitability or the cursed no Inev build
Bc that’s the only reason I could see having any energy ‘issues’ at all in cooldowns
dusk stone
this is with inevitability yes
tawdry mountain
Im new to sub rogue, is it totally wrong to play with Vigor/tea instead of Cold Blood?
shadow lance
Im new to sub rogue, is it totally wrong to play with Vigor/tea instead of Cold ...
No
swift tinsel
Idk I’ve literally played cb all expansion and I’ve never had to wait for energy 
fathom adder
@tawdry mountain no, they are close and have different strenghts
swift tinsel
And don’t use imp sht
vale pine
is that a thing?
never saw this before
signal moth
Idk I’ve literally played cb all expansion and I’ve never had to wait for energy...
in m+?
vale pine
are you in stealth
tawdry mountain
Nice i feel vigor tea is easiere to play. Thanks guys ❤️
tepid trellis
so i got DCd and it wont let me use shadowdance lol
leave stealth and try and press it, or is your stance shit just fucked
vale pine
because you can't use shadow dance in stealth
signal moth
are you in stealth
in or out of stealth
dusk stone
Idk I’ve literally played cb all expansion and I’ve never had to wait for energy...
idk the actual cause i just blame cb because i wanted to take tea for ages and CB was just better
vale pine
👍
dusk stone
also
after i played tea is when i noticed it the first time
it was happening before for sure
hazy breach
You can play either tea or cb, depends on what you prefer
signal moth
which is better?
vale pine
mr fuu do we play cb or am i reading this convo wrong? Im playing this
both is fine, the diffrence is like 0.8-1% overall
so just use what you rpefere
signal moth
in what direction? what do i put the other point in 1 leeching and then cb?
like ths?
fathom adder
whats buggy about finality?
vale pine
ye
signal moth
and i CB before ST i assume?
hazy breach
whats buggy about finality?
It basically doesnt work on coup
dusk stone
you drop tea and 2 stacks of vigor for lethality and cb
vale pine
and i CB before ST i assume?
just like in raid, 2nd secret in your 90 sec sequence
hazy breach
But it works more than it should on BP
signal moth
just like in raid, 2nd secret in your 90 sec sequence
never played sub in raid lol
swift tinsel
balance
signal moth
played sub for about 2 keys
vale pine
ah fair
signal moth
can i just macro it to ST?
vale pine
well the 2nd secret technique cast during flag/blades
you can macro but would want a 2nd bind without
unless you skip the optimization
dusk stone
no like its a permanent setup
my sectec is 6 and my cb sectec is shift 6
doesnt need to be changed
karmic harbor
If I finish at 5cp instead of 6, how bad is that?
dusk stone
if you use 5cp instead of 6 you lose your renown track for the raid for a month
stacking debuff, so mind your P's and Q's
swift tinsel
Or just be scath and your raid rep dies
hazy breach
The choice is often between:
- Strike (5) > strike > (7) > Evis > Strike (7) > Evis
- Strike (5) > Evis > Strike (5) Evis > Strike
So you'd rather have the first one where you get 2 7 finishers than the second one where you dont
(this is globals in dance specifically)
clever delta
for me is easier having sectech and sectech wioth cb macro separate
rather than pressing just CB
dusk stone
its sod/dance macro all over again
karmic harbor
I have a separate keybind for cb because it tilts me when I swap from assa and my macro breaks
dusk stone
sadge 🙁
also honest question, why is araz a good trinket? I looked at the mythic version on murlok and saw it was 30k agi decaying over time thats around 15k agi when you are at the end of peak burst at around 16 seconds You're at around 50% of the forge gone at that point and it averages to like 23-24k~?, plus you're also losing a large amount of passive stat (my mythic pacemaker is 8k)
comes out to like 15-16k for an on use trinket, or about a bit more than twice lilly
plush roost
Because agility > mastery when comparing it to lily and even if the peak of burst will be at 20k agility thats still more than lily or pace makees value
And basically, the robot says its good
Beep boop
swift tinsel
Plus passive secondary with primary on-use has better budgeted on-use stat
dusk stone
why is it worse in keys though and why is the specific use case the last 2 bosses of raid
isn't that kind of it always better or it's not? or whats the interaction going on
alpine wraith
you forget coup does more dmg than sec tech and you get like 4 of them in forge
2 of them quite early on
plush roost
Its not worse in keys totally depends on the pulls and uses. And having big damage on demand is always goos
swift tinsel
In keys you’re more likely to run into scenarios where you’re holding and lose the value of double on use
alpine wraith
in keys you may do less overall but do more effective dmg for packs to die earlier
frontloading dmg when all targets are alive
vs having a passive that may proc when pack is at like 30% hp and like 4 of the 6 are dead
plush roost
It makes your priority damage better as welll with strikea and unseen
dusk stone
so it basically just frontloads damage at the cost of doing less over time more or less
alpine wraith
you can possibly do less overall yes
alpine wraith
but it is not as cut and dry
sometimes some fuckers need to die
but also some people hold it quite a bit too much
hazy breach
Ye but passive+prism is more damage to a specific pack compared to double on-use
plush roost
Robot says its not good on aoe though
Yeah a passive will be more damage outside of cds which obviously matters but having an 18 stack prism on demand instead of always 9 is very very powerful
limpid sage
In keys you’re more likely to run into scenarios where you’re holding and lose t...
Unless you overcap on netherprism stacks it’s prob worth it though
hazy breach
Yeah a passive will be more damage outside of cds which obviously matters but ha...
You can do that without double on-use
limpid sage
Also prism scales with uptime where forge scales with downtime
plush roost
Yeah at the cost of a no trinket flag which in this dungeon pool i cant see many cases for
dusk stone
my mind would be a lot different if it wasn't a quarter of prism
shadow lance
Ye but passive+prism is more damage to a specific pack compared to double on-use
Is double use better in the case you press cd's each pack?
hazy breach
If you press it literally on cd its fine
swift tinsel
Which is rarely the case
shadow lance
Cuz on no cd's pack, it's like you have notrink
hazy breach
Whenever you delay it gets worse and worse, because youre losing out on a LOT of damage from not having a passive
dusk stone
it would be lots worse in any kind of pug scenario too
plush roost
Idk ive very rarely not pressed flag on cd this season, maybe its key level too low issue tho
shadow lance
Say that to Method doing some shitty tiktok where you see sub at 50M and comment wtf?
swift tinsel
Say that to Method doing some shitty tiktok where you see sub at 50M and comment...
You should say wtf to any Gingi short lol
dusk stone
the 50m tiktok is because of an 18 stack prism, not because of double on use
shadow lance
Very funny to show 20 sec of 18stacks prsim
hazy breach
50m aint even that much
dusk stone
that too yeah
swift tinsel
Esp during momma amp with prism
shadow lance
I'm speaking about "bursty"
alpine wraith
i've had some 60m and 70m ones already
hazy breach
Its not on the amp, just on pull
dusk stone
i had 10m overall on big momma earlier doing the prism thing
hazy breach
But yeah
alpine wraith
wonder how high it can get
dusk stone
and CD coming out of it