subtlety

[ripe smelt]

so the only time i skip using it on shadow blades is the first pull of the dung?

[lucid jackal]

Basically

[warped ferry]

How are yall using prism with sub without a second on use?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[stable rain]

hey guys. im an assa player semi new to sub and have hit a bit of a wall and could use some advice on where to go from here. idk what the proper protocol is when it comes to log reviews or even if that's allowed. i just really dont know what, if anything, im doing wrong and am getting kinda frustrated.

[warped ferry]

Does sub have favorable dungeons over sin or is it just a sub only angle?

[ripe smelt]

so i should be running double on use w netherprism?

[swift tinsel]

If you have a log you can !log and people can take a look

[hazy breach]

No

[acoustic matrix]

FeelsBadMan

[hazy breach]

Not necessarily, its really only if you have forge+prism

But i wouldnt recommend it anyway for keys

[stable rain]

!log

[west ridge]

I switched from assa to sub, til blizzard fixes singular focus + the other broken talents

[hazy breach]

Sub doesnt have any bugs at all

Surely its not more bugged than assa right?

[west ridge]

Never said that but assa lost 10+% of damage cause of the „hotfix“ last week

Also i started to like sub aswell its fun to have a lot of cds instead of 1

[hazy breach]

Sure, but 5% of it was intended

[strange geode]

!trinkets

[west ridge]

Ye i was only counting the bugs without caustic that alone where 10% singular focus is 4% overall and momentum od despair is 6% dmg loss

[hazy breach]

Ye but then youre still counting it wrong since youre not even playing momentum of despair

[turbid edge]

They need it more. Now they can beat the tank

[acoustic matrix]

If they bind it

[turbid edge]

U take path now anyway instead of momentum of despair

[hazy breach]

Idk its fun that people try sub for a bit but the comms around the bugs are wild

[rustic mortar]

is it possible to ss the throw of fractilus or does the body hit count to break ?

[turbid edge]

Sub rogue is so complicated. My head hurts trying to learn it. Like 30 things to track, it's like old arcane mage

[cursive vapor]

anyone can tell what % dps increase is from a 691 dagger to crafted 720?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt have that much you need to track really. Its mostly just your big cooldowns

I have less things i track as sub than as assa

But then again things you do track are very important

[west ridge]

I mean yeah true u dont need take momentum but still singular focus bug costs a lot of your prio dmg, anyway the bugs helped me to find a liking to sub to have a bit more variety in the class overall

[dusk stone]

which things are giving you trouble tracking?

thing is sub has been bugged with some of these for a long time, its just a thing we deal with

were lucky to get fixes at the start of patches and thats it

[swift tinsel]

We usually get one or two fixed per ptr cycle but they introduce new ones with every tier set

Truly spoiled

[dusk stone]

what i dont understand is how do bugs cause all these assa refugees

[karmic harbor]

killed it today too!

[dusk stone]

like its still good

[turbid edge]

It's not difficult for each, but the sum of all of them is so difficult. It's like ruptures on targets, the stacks leading up to coup, charges of sod and dance, time until flag, flag duration, macabre stacks, dance duration, etc. There's prob 3-4 more I forgot about

[karmic harbor]

fuck assa lmfao!!

holy fuck what a boring spec

[limpid sage]

worst hill to die on

[hazy breach]

You dont need to think about macabre stacks

Or track it

[swift tinsel]

You can cut danse stacks

[west ridge]

Imagine rogues would get dk or mage treatment its against class fantasy our devs need to be invis even in patchnotes @swift tinsel

[turbid edge]

Oh ok I'll cut that out. But the rest is difficult to track. Also technique stacks too right? Because those will give the refunds?

[swift tinsel]

Ideally you know when you have 7+

So you can anticipate shadowcraft refunds

[proper vortex]

can someone link me his m+ talent tree? 🙂

[dusk stone]

you dont rly need to track coup that much, just dont use it 20~ until CD's and then also storm between coups and thats it. DM stacks aren't important to track, rupture you just glance at the plater once and thats it cd cycle really

just stop using sod/dance at 30s until flag

[swift tinsel]

You should track coup bc it also shows the 4pc duration

[dusk stone]

rupture isnt a big deal because your only applying it before and then only out of CD's

[swift tinsel]

Which affects decision making

[dusk stone]

i just count the gcds in my head for 4p

[turbid edge]

Yeah I think each makes sense to track but all of it together is daunting for someone new to the spec in addition to the rotation and remembering which spenders for target count and then also stopping using cds before flag coming back up

[dusk stone]

i think i play it conservatively by 1sec or so

[limber folio]

poggiewoggie

[turbid edge]

For those familiar with sub, it's prob not too bad but I think newer players have a hard time putting it all together

[dusk stone]

its not assa where you learn it in like 1 key

it takes a little time

[west ridge]

Btw i got a question about 4set in st do we still use backstab or shadow strike for the 2nd coup in st and maybe lose a unseenblade proc or du we shuriken storm in st then ?

[swift tinsel]

Sub has a bit of a learning curve bc unlike most specs in the game you don’t just send cds on cd

Everything has a condition attached

[dusk stone]

shuriken between coups

[hazy breach]

During blades

[swift tinsel]

But once you learn that and get over that initial barrier of entry it’s actually not too bad

[turbid edge]

I thought outside of cds I use coup whenever it procs. Should I hold it until cds? Or if I get the proc at 30 sec before flag up, I can use, then build for next one? When do I want coup in flag window?

[dusk stone]

just use coup on CD rly unless 20s from cd's or like 3 from outside of flag dances

[west ridge]

So we shuriken then 2nd coup even on low combo points cause the flawless stacks are more important right ?

[swift tinsel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

shuriken isnt giving you the stacks of flawless

its just to prevent unseen blade procs cause you cant build them inside of coup proc from 4p

[west ridge]

No bit the coup is giving them

[turbid edge]

And with pug tanks, if shadowblade and flag are up but tank pulls 4 things, do I just send it all in a 10 key?

[dusk stone]

yes you coup on low CP sometimes but thats because proc runs out

[swift tinsel]

Depends on how big those four things are imo

[west ridge]

Okok got it thanks

[swift tinsel]

If you know the next pack has bigger mobs I’d save personally

It’s kinda context-dependent

[dusk stone]

well you think the next pack is gonna be bigger

[turbid edge]

Oh so if u get 1st coup, u still storm between even if it gives like 3 cp, then coup again? Or I have to build to 6+ before 2nd coup?

[dusk stone]

but its not

[swift tinsel]

Not necessarily just mob count

If it’s a mob that’ll live the full flag window

Vs a few piss adds

[dusk stone]

if you coup, you have 5 seconds before your coup proc runs out

however many gcd you wanna put in that is the amount

[swift tinsel]

Does the rest of your party have cds ready?

Context

[turbid edge]

Oh ok so the right thing to do is storm 2x if the 1st storm only gave 2-3 cp?

[swift tinsel]

Better to be liberal with cooldowns as sub than hold, as long as you have them for harder pulls and bosses when it matters

[jovial schooner]

Stupid question: Why shouldnt I put Symbols into Shadow Dance as a macro?

[hazy breach]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[swift tinsel]

Only storm once

If you’re in blades it gives full cp

[turbid edge]

How about outside blades?

[swift tinsel]

You either farm a couple sht stacks first or eat the potential EB stack waste

[turbid edge]

Hmm ok. I think I get it. Lots of complexities haha

I bet this week the sub rogue population doubled

[swift tinsel]

Still dwarfed by sin on raider.io last I checked

But ye theres probably 30 of us now

[jagged rover]

poor mage having to do a +10 EDA with me, getting their funnel griefed so hard from sub

[fair cloak]

I have question, i was doing tazavesh the one with pirate drake, first pull of m+8 lots of mobs i went for pure single target rotation on big guy when there was maaany small guys i did around 17-20m dps 703 ilvl

[olive remnant]

hey can some1 look at my sim and tell me why it wants crit so much? It even takes a haste ring. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hF5hZZRk6y4se7QN3512M9

[fair cloak]

Would I do more if I used black powder instead?

[turbid edge]

Yes

Bp in aoe is massive

[jagged rover]

you'd do more overall while there are mobs, but its possible the pull would take longer with a single mob being up and you'd do less dps overall but more damage. Kinda depends on the comp and what you expect

[fair cloak]

It feels so weak

[jagged rover]

if its pugs, youll do more damage hitting BP though

[fair cloak]

I was with arcane and havoc dh

[turbid edge]

If havoc runs aldrachi, u don't evis. Just bp

[jagged rover]

they both have giant funnel and priority damage, so its kinda grief with a sub rogue either way funny enough lol

they def do less aoe though than sub with bp

[swift tinsel]

Yea you’re running with two of the best funnelers lol

[turbid edge]

U can figure it out after the first pull. If all the little guys have 40% hp and the giant is dead, you're better off bp

[dusk stone]

prob cause vers is very high

what %ages are you

[turbid edge]

On the worm boss, did u just send sectech when it's up or try to time it with add spawns?

[fair cloak]

They were not that good so stuff kinda surived for some time. But yeah big guy died and there were some 15% hp mobs

[olive remnant]

i have 19% crit, 4% haste 95% mastery and 23% vers

[jagged rover]

sent everything on cd, but I ended up with a coup and sectec on each of the add spawns anyway

[dusk stone]

like i said its because vers is that much higher

vers = crit more or less

get 0 haste

[jagged rover]

this was the worm boss and small add damage, though I didn't hold for them at all

oh woops, thats boss. this is small adds

[turbid edge]

Omg lol

[jagged rover]

basically entirely flurry from coup procs

[indigo current]

any of u using LE's weakauras?

[dense geode]

Why are ppl taking the 6% crit over replciating shdaows in keys?

[indigo current]

im getting lua errors from combo point tracker and idk why

[dusk stone]

because they are wrong

[turbid edge]

In m+, is there any harm swapping targets frequently, as long as u coup your fazed target for flawless?

[dusk stone]

likely just running raid build accidentally

[turbid edge]

When I checked, no one did in high keys

[jagged rover]

I'd love the 6% crit in symbols, but I'm not sacing a point for imp shadow tech to path there

[raw moat]

does anyone know about what % phys dam sub does?

[jagged rover]

on the fence about caving and just taking shuriken tornado. its not terrible but not my favorite, and I didn't want to run rotten with my crit right now

[indigo current]

shuriken tornado is fucking trash

hate that talent

[karmic harbor]

no reason to play assa

[jagged rover]

not sure if 2nd point of finality is better than deeper daggers or not

[karmic harbor]

sub supremacy

[dusk stone]

yeah

sub is just good

[west ridge]

I saw most high key sub play the rotten know

[dusk stone]

we sim less and then overperform is what im seeing

i think even casual is

[hazy breach]

That pull is either bugged or insanely lucky btw

[jagged rover]

lucky and good kill timer

[dusk stone]

^ casuals

[hazy breach]

His coup just randomly does 30% more than all the others

[swift tinsel]

I’m guessing crazy highrolls on 2pc

[karmic harbor]

^this guy wants you to play assa

[hazy breach]

He doesnt use coup more than the others either

[karmic harbor]

[swift tinsel]

One mans’ 4pc working as intended

[astral axle]

https://tenor.com/view/made-up-making-things-up-misinformation-spreading-misinformation-lying-gif-5615616319157116451

[jagged rover]

I also dont know many casual sub players, most rogues that I see casually play are playing sin because its easy

[iron plover]

I’m a casual sub player

[spare sierra]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[dusk stone]

dunno saw sub recently in the last week or so get #1 rogue parse for loom

[brave harbor]

is there a wa to remind to apply wound poison at the mini boss before last boss in hoa

[dusk stone]

whats the use case for tornado? you use it and then spread rupture en masse?

[twin quartz]

Just for cdr in between dances in aoe I’d think

[quiet smelt]

when you pop flag and start spreading rups is there an amount you wanna stop at where you like need to start using your window

[dusk stone]

you dont spread more than 2 inside of flag, most of that is done pre flag

[quiet smelt]

thnak s

[dusk stone]

rupture is effected by all of your damage amps

[quiet smelt]

right

[steel swan]

Hey team! I'm fairly new to sub rogue, I seem to be really struggling for damage - in raids, I'm parsing less than 10. If anyone wants it, here's my latest sim: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ssjgAHsDK9Gt6JuXgGBMZ5/simc which shows I should be getting to about 2.4m, but I'm barely passing 1.8m. Any advice appreciated!

[steel jolt]

did you have all these buffs when you tried to match this sim?

e.g. potion, bloodlust, feast, flask

[steel swan]

I did - I've literally just come out of heroic. 2.4m still seems low, compared to other DPS doing 3-4m

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dHz7XwC1gnj8YrQv?boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=damage-done&source=26 Here's the raid log

[raw wadi]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[raw wadi]

!trinket

!cd

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[raw wadi]

is it just
use 13
use 14?

[hazy breach]

!guide You probably need to read through these more

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[raw wadi]

with double on use

[dusk stone]

it looks like you are doing the opener wrong and didnt read the guide

[hazy breach]

If you never delay your cds you can use that or the macro above yes

[steel jolt]

is this one button rotation? why is shuriken toss in here?

[hazy breach]

But if you delay 30s it can get scuffed

[karmic harbor]

read the wowhead guide

you're using flagellation 38s in

random cb usage

yeah just read the guide you'll do way better

[raw wadi]

i still have the second one binded to shift modifier... its just lazyness and button bloat while dodging spirits

[sullen hare]

100% read the guide also press your buttons. on wipe #19 of that heroic log by the time 6:11 rolled around you had only sent 9 sectecs

on the same boss at the same time I'd sent 16 in this log (also I'm not the world's best sub rogue and I cope with ilvl parses)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DCZjqKMBmHG3nVNp?fight=47

saladbar is nice because all your stuff just comes up right on time and you do ridiculous damage

[dusk stone]

or just 18 prism the platform with bp lol

[hazy plank]

hi guys is it normal that i feel i do less dmg on shadowblades by pressing black powder than when i evi, like i can pull some 40 mil on aoe with full evi and i hardly manage to hit like 30M when i press black powder

[dusk stone]

gonna ask my raid lead this week to move 1 person to right side to go for the 100

i dont think your doing 40mil with evis

[hazy plank]

i do, momma pull on FG 15

[dusk stone]

this is with 18 prism?

[sullen hare]

one thing holding you back for sure is that you don't have 4pc

those extra coups are so handy for getting everything to fall into place

[dusk stone]

the reason you'd do more with evis than BP there is your primary evis target has the amp and not the adds

[magic ruin]

Hey if you have coup ready for a dance outside of CD's, should you rather:

1. Sectech -> coup -> coup
2. coup -> sectech -> coup
   Seen on stream people do first sectech, but why dont do it second finisher? You still have supercharger and your sectech benefit from more stacks of flawless form, and you also waste one less unseen blade proc after sectech(?)

• more dance macabre for sectech

[dense geode]

i think cause i was looking at raiderio and the ppl were in ST build

[dusk stone]

because of fazed

[magic ruin]

but if im sending coup i make sure its already fazed? or it wont give flawless?

[dusk stone]

some of it is habitual because fazed high rly high uptime

but also you have to check for fazed doing your opener burst which noone wants to do

[tepid trellis]

ive been looking at that for hours today

it just seems so odd

[dusk stone]

was he doing more coups or were they just doing way more damage

[twin quartz]

I’m not sure that parse is repeatable

I was looking at it too, and I don’t understand

[strange chasm]

His coups have to be bugged holy moly

[wide maple]

I don’t fully understand when to vanish in m+

Does it really matter much for dps

[dusk stone]

for TFD

[wide maple]

Tfd?

[strange chasm]

Guys even using bubbling wax wtf

[void hound]

new tier is insane rng no?

[dusk stone]

it doesnt look like he has 30% more coups

[devout jackal]

assume i dont want to press cold blood for st build

what would be the best thing to macro it to

sectec?

[dusk stone]

if sectec is 6 do shift 6

very east and intuitive solution

macro cb to sectec not sectec to cb

[devout jackal]

gotcha

when i get more comfy with sub i might move it off. but still learning. Its been since like season 1 bfa since i played it lol

[dusk stone]

i had a really janky macro for it for the longest time

its very easy to do it the way i suggested, i learned it in like 30 min or less

[devout jackal]

i dont do modifiers 🙂

but yeha i understand

[dusk stone]

i think thats entirely fine yeah

[vocal haven]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[slate marlin]

Just got prism💅💅

Now to die in m+ and lose 15 stacks

oike a champ

Do you guys ever use it on 9 stacks on only when its full?

[twin quartz]

Can do either. It’s just a cool trinket where you can decide where to fully stack it and not lose anything

[dusk stone]

you use it on CD unless there is a specific reason to do 18

you lose stacks if you wait until 18 likely

[slate marlin]

makes sense

ty

[violet palm]

By CD you mean shadow Blades, not trinket 20sec CD, right?

[slate marlin]

Ofc wtf

[dusk stone]

yes on shadow blades cd

[slate marlin]

i already know its going to be 18 for big momma

and for the double pull after hyllbrande

[turbid edge]

[wintry heart]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[turbid edge]

Remember anvil trinket? On trinket cd

[hazy plank]

i know there is a dmg amp for sure but im talking about start of the pull with every adds up etc, thats weird

[tepid trellis]

tbh i think its just an insane highroll

[left ledge]

dont think i will ever see those numbers in my life

[tepid trellis]

mans has rediculous crit rates

without having alot of crit

and has 2x mythic trinkets

[prisma geyser]

Anyone else having fun with tanks chain pulling this season?

[tepid trellis]

so his dmg in cds is insanely high

[tepid trellis]

even if you check which coup hits critted. he was insanely lucky

the last hit had insane crit rate

[left ledge]

yeah

he just hit the top end of the variance

[plush roost]

Simply crit more

5head

[left ledge]

i mean honestly his sectec crit % isnt that crazy

but he's like 10% higher on evis/coup

[errant ferry]

if i change talents in the middle of a tazavesh hardmode will it reset my prism stacks?

[tepid trellis]

no but it reset ShT and supercharger

[plush roost]

But it doesnt reset disorienting

Consistency? Never heard of her

[haughty mural]

Did this guy have an aug aswell ?

Autumn?

Those crit high rolls

Holy

[left ledge]

i mean

its also fractillus

so he needs to have not gotten a mechanic during when cds come up

[haughty mural]

Once in a lifetime pull

[left ledge]

i mean eventually itll happen as we clear more

i think its just lucky for this early on

[vale pine]

idk

[left ledge]

but i dont think its THAT lucky

[vale pine]

i just always crit

isn't that normal?

[plush roost]

Getting wall breaks on cd lets go

[vale pine]

(i am joking, if its not obv.)

[haughty mural]

[autumn gate]

Is sub or sin better for M+?

[vale pine]

both are good at diffrent dungeons

[plush roost]

I hit 40m on the ritualist rampart pull without prism cause i crit every major button in a dawnyb lmao

[vale pine]

sub has rly good burst and fun gameplay

[plush roost]

Just crit more

[vale pine]

and sin has high aoe numbers if the pull is longer

[autumn gate]

High keys, does sub take the cake for being better at single target?

im pushing 12+

[sick basin]

Depends on the dungeon

[vale pine]

well yes and no

if you can add a 2nd target or more, funnel makes assassiantions prio damage rly high

[sick basin]

for 12 either is fine

[vale pine]

even tho on pure single target, sub probably better

[sick basin]

when it works >_>

[turbid edge]

Charrend do u sin any keys anymore? Or all sub?

[plush roost]

Just been doing sub rn but idk ill probably play sin again

[runic mulch]

I tried to play sub in keys but I felt like CDs were not up consistently enough for the way chain pulling is done. Unless you just at that point spams SS and raptures/ powder

[onyx knoll]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[plush roost]

Shadow dance out of cds still does good damage.

[wind dune]

so i copied the cold blood/Secret Tech macro from wowhead and have it on my stealth bar but, it will not trigger cold blood. anyone had this issue before?

[runic mulch]

My issue was going SD being on CD / low energy

[sick basin]

this is group dependent the highest rogue keys done atm are sub

[plush roost]

I also dont have like good assa gear rn so i feel kinda meh playing it. Zeross is doing some super crazy 31k mastery > versa >=haste >> crit build with bleed and it seems good

[wide maple]

So how do you play around TFD, you try to get stealthed as early as possible for next pack

[plush roost]

Just sit out of combat for 6 seconds, vanish/shadowmeld also helpful

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[plush roost]

I try to play for it before cds so i can have 12 sec dance with flag

[runic mulch]

And I thought my mastery was high! Lol but I’m also geared for raiding/M+ with just my one set of gear

[twin quartz]

Playing without inev feels weird sometimes during blades for me

[haughty mural]

Yes I agree

I personally don’t like no inev builds

But that’s just

[cerulean prairie]

im not seeing a ton of info on tornado other than dont use it, is in the opener after the 2nd sectech while symbols is still up an acceptable usage?

[ashen cloak]

how important is meld for rogue?

[wind dune]

Thank you!

[sick basin]

its not, its convenient at best

[ashen cloak]

so im not losing much by being orc

[hazy breach]

Youre gaining

[sick basin]

arguably from a pure dps perspective is a gain

[ashen cloak]

pog

[haughty mural]

[ashen cloak]

thought meld gave you a restealth

[sick basin]

It can yes but its also a 3m timer and you cant move and has jank

[ashen cloak]

fair enough

[cerulean prairie]

i guess also i saw people mentioning running the rotten depending on crit levels... anyone have an idea of the rough threshold there or do i just have to spend an afternoon simming lol

[rigid sparrow]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[marsh path]

People, would a landmark of shadow blade, shadow, symbols of death work only for burts?

[stoic jacinth]

Is there a video or something that explains the rotation of the subtlety? Very detailed. I would need it for the M+.

[cedar willow]

Beginning key tornado can be used to quickly stack flag while tank is grouping mobs by doing a bunch of quick ruptures

Otherwise in between dances to get cdrs and get some black powdera/ re rupture stuff

Useful but doesnt change core gameplay, also be careful to not over use symbols as you have more energt /cdr between flags

[turbid edge]

Damn I'm kinda close to that with 29k mastery

[stoic jacinth]

is it correct to use shadow strike/eviscerate in aoe up to 7 targets and shuriken/black powder 7+ targets?

[hazy breach]

No

BP at 4 or more

(always use coup)

[dusk stone]

is the tornado rupture flag thing actually good or just sim thing

[hazy breach]

I mean if the pack isnt dead halfway through your flag its good

[dusk stone]

better than finality build?

i ask cause casual is running it

[hazy breach]

What

Nado has nothing to do with finality

[dusk stone]

the finality build without tornado

[stoic jacinth]

(always use coup)? what do you mean?

[hazy breach]

Coup de grace

Your hero talent capstone

[swift tinsel]

use at any target count

[stoic jacinth]

ahhhhhh ok thanks

and shuriken 7+?

[hazy breach]

No

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[random hare]

GUYS

canyone has a WA

that shows

[stoic jacinth]

ok ty again

[random hare]

when coldblood macro is bugged or not

??

@tepid trellis

or*

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[random hare]

bigbigbig

[spiral smelt]

Hey, can someone explain me why we don't want to macro symbol of death and shadow dance together ?

[void needle]

Because you don't use sod and dance at the same time

[turbid edge]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[fast solar]

devlin has it

[wary gate]

how much Dps would I lose playing crt mastery? (i mostly play assa)

[glacial stirrup]

Can someone help me with with the rotation aoe ?

we shadow strike and eviscerate till we get coup de grace and then do shuriken storm and black powder ?

[spiral smelt]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[compact cobalt]

It would likely not be that big of a deal.

You can sim it but, it's probably not going to really change much for you if you play both specs

[glacial stirrup]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusty totem]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[potent verge]

Do people ever hold Netherprism to get more stacks or just send with blades?

[dusty totem]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[glacial stirrup]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[dusty totem]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[dusty totem]

I hold if i know there is a more important or bigger pull down the line

Or if there is a dmg amp or if one of the next pulls is really hard or smth

[lime bear]

When to use Shuriken Storm in AOE?

[dusty totem]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[lime bear]

Thx!!

[cerulean prairie]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.
Is it uncommon to essentially never run into this scenario? During flag/SB sectech is almost always up before or right as shadowdance is ending

or am i misunderstanding something

[hazy breach]

Well you dont want to delay your dance by 2 globals for it

And with the first dance you often end up casting sectech before your first dance even ends

[devout jackal]

i remember seeing this somewhere but idk if im miss remembering it.
Is there times when SB is near that we just stand there and spam backstab into infinite?

even at full combpoints

[hazy breach]

Yes

[devout jackal]

its like ~10 seconds of torture right?

[hazy breach]

You can just ignore it and do 0 damage with your eviscerates if you want instead

Idk its like 3 globals

[devout jackal]

yeah i mena ttrue. it just feels really really bad

like my addons re bugged lol

[finite sequoia]

does anyone have some sim values for prio target dam for sub compared to other specs?

[hazy breach]

You can just take the ST sim

[finite sequoia]

i feel like my prio is about as good as a boomkins

when i look at details

i guess boomkin prio is better this season cuz of their tier?

more dmg in starfire less in starfall

[torn dove]

!commands

Is there a list of the bot commands?

[marsh path]

People, would a marco of shadow blade, shadow, symbols of death work only for burts?

[orchid rampart]

should we sim Dungeon slice or Patchwerk for M+?

[somber tendon]

whats the DPS difference in keys from 2p to 4p tier?

[dusk stone]

according to the sheet afaik like 16%

[stray oyster]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[somber tendon]

that is disgusting. good shit ty ❤️

[signal moth]

does dance macabre work that 6% extra is just 6% on everything during dance?

and 2x 6% = 12% or is it 6% of 6%

[hazy breach]

12%

6% per, additively

But its combo point spenders and builders only

[signal moth]

i remember faintly (it may of been pvp) that getting dance maca so high so it just blew something up, this was maybe shadowlands? or DF?

[hazy breach]

Also not really something that we think much about, the only way you play around it is by backstabbing

[tribal blade]

backstab not castable in dance when

[hazy breach]

Hopefully midnight

[tribal blade]

i'll miss that massive dopamine of pressing our nuclear backstab in dance though 😉

i was legit thinking about how all the ways they could buff WM this morning

[cerulean prairie]

so apparently 2 points in finality sims better than the rotten in every scenario for me

at only 21% crit

[lucid jackal]

How are you getting 2 points of finality

[warm marlin]

-inev -dd + pv

[cerulean prairie]

removing veiltouched and dd and taking shuriken tornado and 2 points finality

i guess i said every situation, i mean every m+ situation

no tea + cold blood sims better in 8+ target and ST but i have just felt better about tea build in practice recently

[manic salmon]

i hate the british

never playing tea

can i get a #amen

[jagged rover]

nah I like playing tea more than I like CB

[potent verge]

https://tenor.com/view/anderson-hellsing-amen-gif-3704830671191442076

[cerulean prairie]

something like forgeweaver is just CB for sure tho

maximum pad

[jagged rover]

adds die so fast on forgeweaver its hard to get CB on them unless your sending on the first sectec

[chrome palm]

Tea is nice for pressing feint and using dance separately

[jagged rover]

at least on mythic. heroic timings are all kind of weird now with force pushes and stuff

our evoker explodes the adds so much that I moved all my prism uses besides the one at 30 seconds to the boss burn

[cerulean prairie]

nah you just have to time your second sechtech in sb to be right as adds spawn , im pretty sure thats what every top parse does

[drowsy veldt]

Hey guys I’m new to wow rogue I’m looking to make friends

[hazy breach]

I think you can just play whichever you prefer between tea and cb in keys

[manic salmon]

hello friend

[cerulean prairie]

pressing flag at like 20 seconds ish

aka 12-14 before adds spawn

[drowsy veldt]

Can I add people on battle net I hate playing alone

[jagged rover]

nah, all the top logs send cb on the first sectec in their cd window with first add set

[elfin hornet]

yall know at what target count black powder is prio over nimble flurry cleave?

[manic salmon]

we do

[jagged rover]

if you send on 2nd sectech then your sending it into the echo or boss

[manic salmon]

we won't tell you tho

[covert storm]

if i can get the second sectec in the first dance of blades window, should I?

[hazy breach]

Ye just send it asap

[covert storm]

and does it snapshot the dance buff

[hazy breach]

it does not

[covert storm]

or do i need to spam dance to make sure the clones dont hit int he downtime

ah ok

so spam dance to make sure no downtime

and is it ok to dance+sod while at max cps into a sectec if the situation calls for it

or is it dance -> backstab 100% of the time

[hazy breach]

You can send at full cp too

[covert storm]

safe ty eleem

[cedar willow]

Cb is better if you have bunch of pre planned huge pulls, tea is good for random pugs where who knows where the tank is going

[cobalt palm]

I'm at 21% haste which I thought was too high, but sim is saying to keep haste gems instead of switching to vers? Am I missing something here?

[lucid jackal]

wrong spec?

[cobalt palm]

Simming dungeon slice in pretty cookie cutter M+ Sub build

[sullen hare]

What's your character name?

[cobalt palm]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uZYAdXASN97YctzmspbY1N

I feel like im missing something really obvious

[shell sorrel]

@teal coral Hey, in m+ in groups of 4+ and 8+, does coup de grace out prio black powder?

[teal coral]

excellent question

I have

literally no fucking idea

[hazy breach]

Theyre all the same

[shell sorrel]

[teal coral]

maybe ping someone who plays this spec

idk

[hazy breach]

Or just ask without pinging like a normal person

[teal coral]

yeah that's the most preferable

[shell sorrel]

any recommendations of who I could ask?

[teal coral]

this chat

you're literally here

[shell sorrel]

you implied I could ping someone "maybe ping someone who plays this spec", but okay

[teal coral]

yes, I mean the least you could do

is not ping me with a question about a spec I don't play

the most sensible thing you could do is just

not ping anyone

people aren't your personal chatgpt here to answer your questions at a whim

[lucid jackal]

[teal coral]

and it's rude to ping them thinking otherwise

[ripe flame]

[lucid jackal]

U coup at all target counts

[tulip quarry]

this you ?

[hazy breach]

Yes?

[teal coral]

no shot you're going to die on that hill

[hazy breach]

Id rather have a ping than a DM

[jagged rover]

theres also multiple guides linked in the pins

[lucid jackal]

Rather neither

[hazy breach]

Ofc

[tribal blade]

damn did someone unironically ping whispyr in sub chat asking for sub info

that's crazy

[teal coral]

still paying for the sins of one tricking sub during sanctum of domination I guess

and my 1 kill of tindral

[sick jackal]

didnt know you played sub before thought you were a assa player only

[formal lake]

please send me your question by pigeon if you want an answer

[sick jackal]

when new sub guide video whispyr

[short radish]

whispyr is it okay if we press coup on 1cp?

[sick jackal]

whispyr should i press shadowstrike

[teal coral]

I one tricked sub in wod, was 50/50 with assa in legion, mostly assa in bfa, 50/50 in shadowlands, and then with dragonflight I've been like 95% assa outside of random boss X or whatever

if you count all my played hours together I'm pretty sure I've spent more time on sub than assa

[hallow night]

🙁

[shell sorrel]

so in SoD did you prio coup de grace over black powder?

[teal coral]

are you just cringe by nature or is this like a thing you rehearse in the mirror every morning

[short radish]

ignore him king

he's a filthy sub one trick

[spiral steeple]

got a question about coup de grace

It says "as if you had 5 more CP"

does that mean I can do 12cp evisc or is it something I should be dumping at 2 cp

[hazy breach]

It would be 12 cp if you finish at 7 yes

[spiral steeple]

nice

[hazy breach]

And it would be 7 if you finish at 2, both are fine

[spiral steeple]

also, I shouldn't be using it without fazed up

wtf do I do if fazed isn't up? just keep dumping backstabs?

[hazy breach]

Fazed is going to be up if you just play the rotation as you should

[spiral steeple]

ok

so I shouldn't have to worry about fazed uptime

[hazy breach]

The only time it aint is if the target dies or you swap to a target that was out of range for your secret technique earlier

[spiral steeple]

thanks

[hazy breach]

Since when you proc coup you will have fazed on the target you used strike or backstab to proc it on

[warm marlin]

@whospar when do i press pistol shot

[reef wigeon]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dry zodiac]

does Cloak work to immune the Hunt on soul hunters? it's chaos damage, but i'm unclear if that actually includes physical or not...

[hazy breach]

Yes you can immune it

[reef wigeon]

Can I macro flagellation and shadow blades together to save on button presses?

[steel jolt]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hazy breach]

Its far from ideal as you dont want to be use them at the same time

[reef wigeon]

Oh I see! Ty!

[stuck linden]

I can seem to pull more than 6.5m in 10s. I could pretty easily hit 7.5-8.5m with outlaw.

[spiral steeple]

how long after flagellation should I be using shadow blades?

[hazy breach]

Id suggest checking the burst sequences listed in the guides

[sick basin]

Does anyone have a good audio trigger or sound for when the CP refund happens? It keeps tripping me out thinking I just didn't press a global lol

[hazy breach]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[sick basin]

Oh there, nice

Ty

[reef wigeon]

New to rouge wouldn’t it be better to use them together since shadow blades gives you full combo points and flagellation does damage based on combo points?

[spiral steeple]

flagellation builds

over time it grants more mastery

and it lingers

[hazy breach]

They are used together, just not at the same time

[spiral steeple]

so using shadow blades later on gives more damage

[reef wigeon]

Ohhh

[spiral steeple]

looking at the burst guide it seems like a few secs after

like 3 globals

[reef wigeon]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tribal blade]

does anyone know what's up with bountiful delves not giving rep

i'm trying to gamble with getting kareshi rep

but i've done 4 bountiful delves in a row that haven't given rep

[steel jolt]

no rep at all or just not kareshi?

[tribal blade]

oh nvm i found the answer on reddit

actually maybe i should ping whispyr and ask how delves work

[warm marlin]

you lost the dice unlucky

also it gives 1250 not 1.1k

[thorn yacht]

is the tricks hero talent bugged?

[lucid jackal]

nop

[ripe flame]

wait you can actually get nothing?

that's fucked

[tribal blade]

it makes sense though, i already got 1250 kareshi rep this week

so no need to run more 😉

[tribal blade]

yeah sounds like each faction is on a weekly lockout

[lucid jackal]

Is there a weakaura to check which reps uve gotten for the week

[broken spindle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[tribal blade]

https://wago.io/XybPGAF7r

not sure if that's updated with kareshi rep

https://wago.io/DcSlLSFMs this one is

[plush roost]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[tribal blade]

i'm at 17 atm so i guaranteed hit 18 next week

[sullen hare]

man I love me some whispyr snark

[dusk stone]

It was a decision for sure

[worn kestrel]

why do we backstap in shadow dance instead of full shadowstrike ? do i missed smthg

[vocal garnet]

it's cause of premeditation and danse macabre

[turbid edge]

curse forge + prism great combo for M+? do i forge first then prism with blades?

[strange heath]

you only backstab once to get the extra 6% dmg buff from danse macabre

[worn kestrel]

OHHH shit yeah thx

[dusk stone]

Prism + passive keys

[exotic zephyr]

why does black powder feel like it does no dmg

[dusk stone]

Likely because it is being used wrong sub does a lot of dmg rn

[exotic zephyr]

cz on 7 people im doing more dps with eviscerate than 8+ with black powder

[strange heath]

are you currently running the rotten by chance?

[exotic zephyr]

im not no

[strange heath]

run the rotten

[strange heath]

rotten guarantees crit on builders, read black powder tooltip

extra 30% dmg on find weakness targets

which comes from crits with shuriken

[exotic zephyr]

instead of what

[plush roost]

Finality

[dusk stone]

Finality sim 1% better atm, you storm imbetween coups and you also storm while gather so mobs have decent chunk of find weakness

[plush roost]

You dont need rotten it just adds consistency

[dusk stone]

I run tr tho

[somber tendon]

how big of a DPS optimization is slamming a symbols between pulls as I get stealthed back up in M+?

[dusk stone]

You mean to stack supercharger?

[somber tendon]

yeah like symbols in stealth as we're walking up to the next pack vs. just not popping symbols until the dance -> backstab GCD

[dusk stone]

Im not sure if it is but it depends on travel time

Going off the boat on dawnbreaker and going between packs might be

[worn kestrel]

what is the passiv that gives us full CP in SD after and spender ? like i see many streamer doing sd sectec shadowstrike evis evis

[somber tendon]

this type of shit

just trying to figure out how much of a DPS increase is actually getting that pre pull symbols or not, guide says it's optional

[short radish]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[dusk stone]

Its worth it if you remember to do it and dont eat into cooldowns

[somber tendon]

1% damage. Thank you @short radish

[dusk stone]

More than 1%

[short radish]

a bit more than 1%

also it feels way nicer

especially the disoriented strkes

[hazy breach]

Thats just before a raid boss, you wouldnt slam symbols inbetween packs in keys

As you could just use it on the pack itself

[somber tendon]

... that's the only thing im asking LOL

[hazy breach]

The reason you can do it for a raid boss is because you can do it infinitely ahead of time

In keys using it before you pull a pack means you just have one less during the pack

Which isnt good

[somber tendon]

❤️

[dusk stone]

I found an actual good use for chat gpt

It sorts information nice for learning about other classes/specs

[earnest canyon]

tried to google but cant find it. how much theroitcal damage would be gain from going from 0pcs to 4pcs?

[short radish]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[earnest canyon]

oh!! thanks~

[manic salmon]

i let out a little moan when i get 2 procs off of 2 shadowstrikes in shadowblades

just for good measures

[daring agate]

im 690. did a 4. just curious if my overall break down seems close or not

[soft summit]

when to use black powder instead of eviscerate? And when to use shurikan storm instead of backstab?

[daring agate]

im still learning but ive been told BP at 4+ targets. shuriken is never used during dance, only outside of dance when doing so would give a guarantee full combo points

[soft summit]

so in aoe youd use shurikan over backstab and black powder over evis when 4+ targets... sounds good

thanks!

[daring agate]

even during dance, use shadowstrike to build (for nimble flurry) and BP to spend

at 4+ ofc

[open vortex]

if you have 4p, and you are inside of shadow blades, you can storm in between coup procs (assuming you did not get a cp refund) for a small gain

[daring agate]

also during dance, weave in 1 backstab for an extra dance macabre stack

[soft summit]

Great tips, thank you Grunge

[daring agate]

no problemo

[soft summit]

any other attacks you want to weave in? one shuriken or anything?

[daring agate]

in dance? no. unless you have 4 set then you can shuriken once in between coups

[soft summit]

k

[urban walrus]

Hey guys, what can i change to do better ?

[stoic token]

trying to figure sub out for m+ after a long rogue break. At what point remaining on Flag cd should i no longer dance to save for Flag window

[short radish]

25 seconds

[daring agate]

its always a dps gain to save cooldowns for flag/blades if they are coming up soon. id say no more than 30 sec

[hazy breach]

You should ALWAYS be able to cast 2 dances, 2 symbols and 2 sectechs every blades

Thats what the entire spec revolves around

[short radish]

you want to go into flag with 1.5 dances and 1.3 symbols

[daring agate]

listen to Eleem. they know what's up.

[stoic token]

right i found myself using my 1 charge dance/symbols too close to flag coming off cd forcing me to delay flag

[short radish]

if that happens

[stoic token]

trying to understand the cadence in m+

[short radish]

just hold flag until you can do it right

[stoic token]

figured

[short radish]

delayed flag > bad flag

[soft summit]

dont you use flag with shadoweblade or soon after?

[daring agate]

use together always

[stoic token]

so after my flag window how many dances should i get before my next flag

[daring agate]

2 dances and 2 sectechs

[short radish]

together* (sblade is cast a global or 2 after flag)

[stoic token]

so 2 in Flag then 2 naked

[hazy breach]

Depends, usually 1-2 on ST and maybe 2-3 in aoe but it depends

Since it scales with combo points spent

theres no "its always like this"

[stoic token]

ty this is useful for getting back into it

any reason i cant bind everything (dance/symbols/tea) to Shadowblades and Dance

i have individual keybinds for tea and symbols but it would be nice to have them in my cds as well

[swift tinsel]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[hazy breach]

If you have them seperately bound as well thats fine

As long as you follow the burst sequences laid out in the guide and use them at the right time seperately as well

[stoic token]

ok so it sounds liek no downside to binding to Shadowblades but dont bind to dance

[hazy breach]

Well you dont use them with shadowblades

You can do blades+sectech+pots+trinket if you want

[stoic token]

i mean how much dmg does it lose moving blades and trinket to 1 global earlier

[lucid jackal]

Probs like 2%
but ur talking about a spec whos entire damage profile is concentrated into its CDs

If theres one part of the spec thats worth perfecting, its the opener

[earnest canyon]

trying to min max my UI. is tracking the # of flawlessform stacks a thing? eg holding any cds until more flawless form stacks are up? or is there close to no point tracking it (as long as we have 1 stack)

[fallen depot]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[fallen depot]

how do you fix that CB bug?

[vagrant sinew]

relog

think it also works if you respec into a build without cb and back but not sure if its 100%

[lucid jackal]

Its not worth tracking ATM, last tier it was worth tracking because in AoE you would backstab to trigger it outside of CDs, but you sort of have 100% uptime of it this tier

[reef magnet]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[earnest canyon]

icic, as a new rogue soo many things to track. ill take that weak aura off then.

[covert minnow]

hi, i have a question for m+ build

i remember we used to only use powder +8 targets, did this.. change? i have seen that many are using powder over evis in aoe no matter what (as far as i gathered), so should i not press evis at all in aoe and go deep for powder?

[lucid jackal]

4 targets now

[covert minnow]

so 4 and above = powder

[lucid jackal]

If u want more aoe damage, yes

[covert minnow]

if prio

evis

[lucid jackal]

Use ur brain a bit, prio damage from evis still has value yeh

Like ara kara after first boss

Probs want to evis, not bp

[covert minnow]

ye ye

okay gotcha, thank you for the heads up

[limber relic]

But my pad dmg

[covert minnow]

xd

[short radish]

the elite pack before the 2nd boss ara kara

theres 6 targets there

perfect for BP

[manic salmon]

i hate the fact ara kara got voted in

such a horrible dungeon

the only redeemable part about it is the 3rd boss area

[clever lintel]

New to sub. For M+ opening on a larger mob pack. How many targets should I rupture and does my rupture spred to other targets from just spamming on my main target like sin?

[manic salmon]

it does but no need to be lazy about it

you can rupture while the pack is being gathered

[sick basin]

Any WA experts know if its possible to increase the volume of Zac's shadowcraft refund wa sound?

[earnest canyon]

would going the cold blood route be easier to play or thistle tea route? or is it similar (gameplay wise)

[manic salmon]

you dont need to remain stealthed as you can target mobs tank has tagged (your tricks redirect is 1 hr)

[hollow snow]

ye unlike sin there's no DSM to manage so manually spreading rupture isnt aids

[clever lintel]

Am I trying to put rupture on all mobs? Is it just for energy?

[hollow snow]

CB nets more ST, tea nets aoe

[manic salmon]

Just bonus deeps

youre not going to send until the pack is gathered

that time used best is rupturing

[dusk stone]

Its a lot when youre also doing other things sub optimally, sub is a spec where the person behind it can choose to have like -15% or +15% buff

[clever lintel]

So get as much rupture out well pulling. Once stack, go to normal rotation?

[manic salmon]

Yup, do your opener

[hollow snow]

essentially yea

[manic salmon]

flag rupture/spender and your standard rotation

[clever lintel]

Yeah I just wasn't sure if there was a min amount I should get off before shadow dance

[hollow snow]

because when you're dancing, everything you have rupture on ticking

[manic salmon]

theres no set amount

but also dont waste time

there might be value in reducing your cds sometimes though

rupture isnt high priority like sin, just treat it as a standard damage button

[dusk stone]

Afaik youre wasteing ruptures not target swapping even in sin

[hollow snow]

wasting 1 really as sin for each rup

[dusk stone]

Only the secondary rupture is smart

[sick basin]

Sin is target count dependant

Like if there are 5 targets, no loss, if 6 targets, its a loss

[hollow snow]

but you don't need more than what scent of blood caps at

[dusk stone]

Regardless for us its for sure a waste to not tab target ruptures

[clever lintel]

Thank you, I get the jist of it

[manic salmon]

you kinda do if you're playing bleed build

[sick basin]

for bleed you still want as many ruptures as you can

[hollow snow]

i kinda just played it by ear to an extent, i.e if it was just a weekly & shits melting vs a higher floodgate or gamb

[idle sedge]

how accurate is wow anyalzer for sub?

and do i have to use 2 daggers?

[fresh sparrow]

if youre playing The Rotten, do you still shuriken storm after sec tec even if youre full combo points? or spend em 1st with black powder

[dusk stone]

Probably not

You used to storm after sectec to apply find weakness but in keys or aoe, it will be applied from the rupture-storm you did during the gather

If youre going to do it atm do it in 2nd dance of flag because thats when FW will have fallen off

After that the mobs are either dead, or will have it up

[strange heath]

wait why 2 daggers with the rotten

[reef wigeon]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[fresh sparrow]

ok sweet, appreciated

[dusk stone]

Yes

[sick basin]

How does trickster tricks work? Is it just a 1hr buff? if I use my trick WA/macro it still says 18sec timer

[pastel radish]

for big mommy do you guys hold flag + sb for when shes in amp phase or do you send it early on

[sullen hare]

once you get it active by hitting something in the 30 sec after you cast it you're fine and it's good for an hour

[reef wigeon]

are we ever pressing slice and dice? Or do we just relay on Eviscerate to give it to us?

[sullen hare]

correct. no slice and dice in the rotation

evisc gives us all we need

[reef wigeon]

lol so i can safely take it off my action bars?

[sullen hare]

you can, sure. sometimes I'll use it for a little quick spender CDR inbetween pulls in m+ though

that's about all that comes to mind as far as current uses for it

[reef wigeon]

ty!

[hardy snow]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[gilded ferry]

can feet be a tier set

i dont remember

[little scaffold]

no

[crystal sinew]

!cd

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[jagged rover]

last pull killed araz, mythic helm for me

[earnest canyon]

does using symobols of death before the last boss of streets (since the RP takes like 20 seconds), works too right

[jagged rover]

yeah that works

[lucid jackal]

dude sub on dimensius

This spec is so perfect man

They really made peak

[wintry heart]

Came back after a 5 month wow break and tried sub again and actually really enjoy it

[plucky parrot]

if double coup doesn't get baked into the new trickster talents I'll cry

[valid vine]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

Current sub rogue is literally the best rogue has ever played

genuine perfect design

[chrome palm]

No way it isn’t

[plucky parrot]

we hope and pray

[frail kindle]

goated ass spec

[jagged rover]

we need to keep double coup. Hoping for that being part of sub tree or trickster

[twilit phoenix]

if we don't get quad coup, I don't even want to play sub

[frail kindle]

whats the difference between double coup and coup doing 2x the damage

[twilit phoenix]

less CDR

[frail kindle]

ok make it 3x

[twilit phoenix]

idk the cdr is big

but past 3x damage is a sim question

[split garden]

!talents

[untold sable]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[split garden]

why when im in a mini cd window does shadowtstrike not give me 6+ combo points sometimes?

[lucid jackal]

Because It doesn't guarantee it?

[hoary lotus]

someone explain why I can't swap talents if THISTLE TEA HAS A CHARGE MISSING

[plucky parrot]

Because it’s still on cooldown

[chrome palm]

try again in 3 minutes

[hoary lotus]

[hazy knoll]

just waiting on my 4pc to come online

feeling good already

[hoary anvil]

finally got a prism (champion track, but its something)

[split garden]

o i thought with shadow dance up it was supposed to

[plucky parrot]

Shadow blades*

[split garden]

good comms

[plucky parrot]

Dance just gives you access to shadow strike

So you’re still reliant on ST procs

[left coral]

Switching to sub after playing assa for awhile. What are some tips/tricks that maybe aren't covered in guides. Always hold to line things up? WA that are essential?

[upbeat sorrel]

is ara kara better as ass

bricked a 14 and 15 lowkey not my fault but wondering if its better as ass

[split garden]

i kinda just started with the basic m+ wowhead build whilst learning but im getting a lot mroe comfortable is there a better build than this for m+ or this the best?

[sullen hare]

pins are always a good place to start berol. usually a lot of good current info in there as well as things we're likely to be talking about

[stoic sphinx]

Flag feels a little unnecessary design wise to me but yeah otherwise I would tend to agree I think. Some talents are still really weird that we don’t take but meta talents the spec flows well

[azure ember]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste

[short radish]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

the guides cover most tips and tricks

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short radish]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[short radish]

thats probably about it for tips and tricks

[split garden]

been learning rogue over the last 4 days, felt good about my rotation but did kinda feel my dmg was underhwleming at times but didnt think much of it, well this is my main hand. im a sad boi now

[short radish]

happens to the best of us mate

i used an int dagger in BFA for half a tier

before i realised

[split garden]

yea this one stings quite a bit but just my self to blame

[short radish]

when this crafthing thing first came out in DF

my mate made a plate helmet

week 2 or something

he was a warlock

[split garden]

worst part is

i swear i checked the mainstat on the dagger first

but i guess im just dumb

[alpine wraith]

it happens sometimes we have 1000 calculations and they are all wrong

[upbeat sorrel]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[upbeat sorrel]

do you guys use a dance + backstab macro or nah

[alpine wraith]

nope

but it is also good to have stab outside the stealth+normal bars

so it does not matter if they change

[hexed sluice]

I wore an int offhand on my monk in dragonflight from 2.2k to 3.2k io before someone pointed it out.

Brewmaster.

[rain portal]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[rain portal]

do i try to hold coup to get it into my cd window?

or do i just press buttons and use coup as it comes up

[alpine wraith]

only if it is like 20 secs before flag

[carmine fable]

would you guys say sub rogue is hard to learn? coming from arcane

[limpid sage]

There’s a pretty steep learning curve to begin with, but then everything just clicks

[topaz venture]

can someone look at mythfirst boss log and tell me my problems?

[carmine fable]

One thing I have trouble with is coup de grace proc(just been treating it as another evicerate for now) and when I use a combo finisher and don't lose combo points. couldn't find in the guide when that happens or if it's predictable (keeping combo points after finisher)

[alpine wraith]

it is from shadowcraft

and you need a sht tracker to know it can happen while coup lasts

it hits immediatly 0,4 then 1 sec

and you can get refunds on any of those while SoD is active

[night raven]

Hi all, and thanks for the inv to the discord. Recently been playing rogue and timing 13/14 keys in assa, i'm 710 ilvl with raid HM boots with solid 18 to 25M DPS openers on big pulls and usually average 6 to 9M overall dps depending on what key. I am doing okay i guess in assa but wanted to explore new territories. I have put my hands on a lot of SUB very otpimized gear (close to full bis actually) so i decided to give it a good go. It's a desastre, on 5 dummies in dorno i'm stabilizing at 6M ( 15M in assa); on single target dummy 3M (4,3M in assa) in keys i have tried 2 differents 8s it's an absolute horror, i'm dealing less than my mate pala alt tank.

So i have been practicing all night to try to crack the code, i'm following guides from casualaddict on rotation, even reloaded hekili and followed it. Nothing works, what am i missing ? If anyone is willing to hop on vocal and help a rogue friend out that be fantastic.

[carmine fable]

ohh ic ty. And ye probably best to read up on each talent etc tyty

[tender patrol]

how many targets do i rupture in aoe ?

[short radish]

dont use hekili

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[median nacelle]

rupture does good dmg, so u can spread as many as u want, but u also wanna send at some point (usually u can rupture when tank gathers or if ur tryna get dance stacks back still etc)

[short radish]

you do big burst in CDs

[median nacelle]

@tender patrol

[short radish]

and then nothing out of cds

its not like assi where you're constantly pooping out damage

[tender patrol]

ty for your quick answer, so there is no like must have

just rupture for gather and tricks on tank and once everything is gathered i can just send

i assume atleast

[lethal gate]

Is it possible to fit two sectec on mythic araz amp phase?

[median nacelle]

ya

[shadow lance]

You need to understand that you do 80% your damages during you CD's

So, you need to understand and apply the CD's sequence the best as possible

Then, thinking about the use of shadow dance between your CD'S to not hold it BUT having it up for next CD's sequence

[fair anchor]

Dont think its a good idea to compare dummy dps when they drop at 0% and assa has execute

[pastel radish]

Hey do you guys hold flag + blade for big momma amp phase or do you guys full send at the beginning with a bunch of other trash mobs pulled too?

I tried both and I think sending early is the move

[willow pawn]

send at start. Get 18 stacks. Do 60mil

go next

[shadow lance]

Amp phase isn't big enough to justify holding cd's for it + You need to kill adds to unlock it. I just hold if I just delay for few second

[pastel radish]

Are you the mortiz on Stormrage?

[willow pawn]

yah

[pastel radish]

[real delta]

I could appreciate a quick log review of this 10 Gambit. I'm trying to understand why I have more Shadow Strikes than Backstabs (obviously, I'm casting it more), but I must be doing something awfully wrong because other logs I'm looking at show other Sub players with about a 2:1 ratio of backstabs to SS, and I feel like my nimble flurry damage is quite low.

In dance I'm using SS with the exception of 1 backstab for Dance Macabre, and then in larger AoE pulls (4+ mobs) I'm just using storm outside of dance, so I'm just not seeing myself backstab often, but I feel I'm missing out on a lot of nimble flurry damage. Any ideas?

Log: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/aJ6g9QMVb43BD1nc/self?fight=7%2C7&type=casts&source=8%2C-2

For reference, here's someone else's Gambit 10 log I pulled and they're doing far more overall DPS which includes a LOT more backstabs
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qb2Wg1nKZvdpfTBh?fight=3&type=casts&source=195

[shadow lance]

Can't really look at it right now but, do you press bs outside of dance, everytime your Flawless is not up?

[open vortex]

there are a cpuple of times where you are using one of the supercharge stacks on rupture which is a big ol waste

and a couple of other times where you are compeltely missing out on supercharging sectec

all of this should probably be in a log thread but

this is pretty criminal

[ashen grove]

which stats do I need on crafted 1h weapon? didnt find it in the guide

[real delta]

So I should be exclusively holding Symbols for SecTech, and ONLY use Symbols when my next finisher is SecTech?

[white token]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[chrome palm]

Here me out, flag reworked into an ability that consumes a stacking spymaster/prism-like effect that caps out at three minutes

[vagrant sinew]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[open vortex]

your main goal of using symbols is to use one of the supercharged combopoints on sectec. so as long as you arent using one of them on rupture its fine

if you have coup up, then it would want to be coup first then sectec (coup gives you more flawless form stacks)

but if you don't, it could just be sectec -> bp/evis or vice versa because the bp/evis can give you enough cdr to get the sectec

[real delta]

Coup > Sec Tech is news to me. Method says it should be the other way around. Are you talking about a different case or am I misunderstanding?

[real delta]

This might be the trick that I've been missing. Outside of dance I haven't been backstabbing at all on larger pulls so I'm definitely letting flawless form drop off after proccing it with SS inside dance. So if flawless form falls outside of dance, and I don't have dance on cooldown, I should be fishing for another flawless form by backstabbing until I get it back up, then resume storming?

[tribal blade]

ok so the arcane mage in my guild was complaining that rogues are OP this tier

is that just a crazy take

or are we actually OP

also coming from an arcane mage that feels kinda rich

[cursive vapor]

op if you know how to play maybe?

[tribal blade]

maybe

but looking at a bunch of fights where rogue is all the way at the bottomw

i dunno

def good on some fights

[cursive vapor]

idk for me the higher the key is the higher i am at the top x)

[tribal blade]

haha rogue does feel nice in keys

[cursive vapor]

i really enjoy it

[open vortex]

ya more of an optimization, you kind of have to have experience if you can fit the coup before the sectec if you're inside of your cd window. an easy rule is to just make sure you land 2 supercharged sectecs inside your blades window. and outside of blades just make sure you supercharge sectec during dance and that's like most of the spec

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[bleak night]

sub is very good on a couple of very important fights but it being called op by an arcane mage of all things

[tribal blade]

yeah that's the part that gets me

when RWF was stacking 4 arcane mages on some bosses

like

ok

[open vortex]

i dont think rogue is op but we definitely have a favorable niche

[short radish]

i fucking hate mages

[open vortex]

would look real bad if the last two fights didn't suit us

[tribal blade]

HAHA we have a shammy in our guild that says that every day

[short radish]

mages go one tier without being absolutely OP

mission level - impossible

and arent mages really fucking good this tier anyway

[split garden]

is cataing shoulders to get my 4 pc troll? i dont have catable gloves rn sadly

[timber hornet]

arcane is probly right under sub

[tribal blade]

yeah mages are busted as usual this tier

also really good in M+

[open vortex]

could just wait until u get gloves but 4pc is very big