subtlety

[prime raft]

is there a MOP sub channel

[brave harbor]

Is it okay to can't get second coup in dance

[feral knot]

#classic-discussion message

[worn kestrel]

hi, quick question

[prime raft]

ty

[ember thorn]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusty loom]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[worn kestrel]

do the eviscarate from hero talent can overcap combo points, i mean i am 7CP with the evisc from hero talent, when i cast it does it proc as 12CP or 7 ?

and does it mean i can only use evisc from hero talent at 2CP to cast it faster as a 7CP

[gritty kite]

What would be the best use of prism+lily? They are siming more than Peacemaker

[slate lantern]

Lily first cd, prism second, repeat

[gritty kite]

only on big cds?

Or second do u mean second small cd

[serene notch]

TR being taken in top keys it seems

[plush roost]

Tornado rotten finality and db all kinda work

I personally run rotten cause it just feels good to me but im pretty sure tornado is better

[serene notch]

im liking the no tea angle

[tall hatch]

its better to run the Tea build or the CB for M+? How much is the dps difference

[plush roost]

Tea more aoe, cb more boss dps

[vestal escarp]

Rotten is consistency

[plush roost]

I also think cb with prism is very good later and higher keys get

[vestal escarp]

Consistency in m+ = good

[plush roost]

But i wouldnt know since prism wont drop for me xd

[serene notch]

i wouldent mind tea so much but the auto proc is such omega clown shoes

[swift tinsel]

They gone

I’m escaping prism waiting room Tuesday on god fr

Or I’ll get it with turbo boost

[astral axle]

ive liked playing around with prism in keys for moments when you like get cooldowns back but the pack is in that spot where it is too dead to send again but not dead enough that you can just afk

[tall hatch]

So wich build shoul i go with ? Im like trying to learn still

[swift tinsel]

Also im convinced emissary waits for my cds to end before spawning

[steel zinc]

on dungeons with big pulls like ara put rotten into 1 point finality

I think has more value

thats my experience so far

but rotten is goated in smaller pull dungeons

[autumn sierra]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[autumn sierra]

how to show the shadow techniques stacks in weakaura?

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[mossy cipher]

Hello folks! Any recommendation of a youtube guide to watch for M+ for someone starting new with the spec?

[dry plank]

Video guide wouldn’t help much. Read guide first

[vale pine]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[woeful roost]

guys when u sim for raid fights u use patchwerk 1 boss 5min?

[vale pine]

yes

[woeful roost]

kk thnks

[lime edge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[marble comet]

why not one with dance, blades and symbol? i dont get it

if i use flagellation and press it then im insta ready to juice no?

[vale pine]

yes

you use cooldowns after

[marble comet]

what do you mean ?

[manic salmon]

you use flagellation on max combo > rupture > dance symbols > sectech & shadowblades macro very shortly after

[split garden]

I’ve seen it in a couple top logs but why do some people shadow blades after the sectec in the opener not before ?

[manic salmon]

sectech hit is not that hard, and the clones hit ~globe later

[swift tinsel]

Usually to have it closer to the first builder

Since clones hit 1 and 1.3 sec after phys hit they inherit the damage buff from blades

[split garden]

So is it better to do it after then ?

[swift tinsel]

Either or

As long as it’s before the first clones it you can do it before or after

[tall hatch]

Are the Pin Talents still ok to play for raid/m+?

[split garden]

Hm interesting has I wonder if after sectec used to be better since literally all the top rogue logs and rwf rogues do it after but the guides don’t even talk about it but makes sense on why

[turbid edge]

I heard it is neutral to do before or after

[vale pine]

flagellation is basically the initiator of your 90 sec cooldowns

so you flagelaltion-rupture-cooldowns

or even flagellation-cooldowns

keep in mind you would in both cases use flagellation with high combo points to finish after

[turbid edge]

How many seconds left on rupture until u wouldn't flag - rupture?

[vale pine]

after that we do 2x dance with 2x symbols and 2x secret technique

[warm marlin]

it did used to be better after, sectec didn’t used to work with blades

[vale pine]

thats the biggest part of our damage

[vale pine]

you want to not refresh rupture during flagellation

[tall hatch]

when its ok to use the 3rd Symbols?

[swift tinsel]

When you’re gonna supercharge Sectech

[marble comet]

ah ye obv but i can marco it and press it aftert

got it

[tall hatch]

like in between

so always we wanna have sectech with Symb right?

[warm marlin]

Personally my sectec keybind is just closer to my blades/trinket/pot etc so it’s easier to do after sectec than backstab (and muscle memory)

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it’s muscle memory for me

[vale pine]

you mean add a 3rd dance?

unsure what the question is

[swift tinsel]

R->shift+middle mouse

[tall hatch]

we use 2x dance symbols + sectech

but we still have 1 charge

[vale pine]

but you can expect to use 1 or 2 symbols/dance/secret sequences between your 90 sec cooldowns

[tall hatch]

of symbolst left

[swift tinsel]

Used to be shift+R but thats my cb Sectech

[tall hatch]

right i get it 😄

[vale pine]

and you have some dynamic because you start out with 3 charges of symbols

[tall hatch]

Fuu is the PIN m+ and raid build viable right?
i've seen so many differents builds.. on sky/murlock etc

[vale pine]

yes

[turbid edge]

Oh so majority of the time, u always flag into rupture so it will last 30 seconds?

[vale pine]

some talents can be changed

[vale pine]

well rupture pandemics, but you usually refresh rupture before using cooldowns

[ornate vale]

we coup de grace with how many cps?

[mint violet]

Can someone explain why shuriken between coup de grace?

[swift tinsel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hollow spear]

The S2 tierset is still in my muscle memory, I just rupture after flag

[swift tinsel]

I still sometimes jump after flag by reflex

[vale pine]

tl;dr to not waste unseen blade stacks

[swift tinsel]

Transmitter hauntings

[shrewd lantern]

my muscle memory is still to

dance bs symbols sb secret

instead of dance symbols bs

[feral barn]

!spreadsheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shrewd lantern]

I imagine in reality that barely makes a difference though

[mint violet]

But what is waste in this case? The goal is to save them for what?

[shrewd lantern]

you waste unseen blade

if you have to strike to build between coups

[turbid edge]

In ST u waste it by striking in between coups?

[tall hatch]

Is there any unseen blade WA? somehow i think i got one a little dark and cant see it properly

[mint violet]

I am missing something with the unseen blade, I don't understand why it's a waste

[swift tinsel]

So it caps at 4 stacks

And when you spend first coup, you need to build combo points to spend second

[mint violet]

Ye

[swift tinsel]

Strike can proc unseen blade which would normally add a stack, but the buff that enables second coup does not allow more stacks to be gained while it’s up

But storm cannot, so if you can guarantee you’ll fill your combo points you storm

Because if you strike, you risk the chance of proccing an unseen blade that doesn’t grant a stack towards another coup

[glad rampart]

what if you proc

u do 2x coupe in a row?

[swift tinsel]

Proc refund you just coup

No need to build if you have full combo points

The storm is purely to build

[mint violet]

Oooh

[tall hatch]

My stats are pretty sad atm
73 mastery 35 crit 11 haste( i will get rid of it asap) 10% versa

[glad rampart]

there is a better way the explain the rule tbh

[mint violet]

So the stacks for proving coup

[glad rampart]

!coupe people getting confused

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[glad rampart]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

Ideally every unseen blade adds a stack towards coup so we try to find ways to avoid as many missed stacks as possible

Some are unavoidable due to how the set and EB are implemented

[mint violet]

But these are not "unseen blade stacks" are they?

[swift tinsel]

EB is Escalating Blade, the stacking buff granted by Unseen Blade

[mint violet]

Ye

[swift tinsel]

And 4 EB grants coup

[mint violet]

That's why I got confused

[swift tinsel]

Yeah the names make it a bit confusing

UB grants EB and 4x EB grants coup

[mint violet]

Guide also does but explain it properly I think

Can you also explain shadow technique

What is that?

I understand it's something that stores cp

[chrome palm]

Been playing assa?

[swift tinsel]

Auto attacks grant stacks

[vague schooner]

do i press symbls + secret technique a second time at the end of a dance window or do i wait for second dance?

[swift tinsel]

And they’re essentially stored combo points

[mint violet]

But have not found any info

[tall hatch]

yes 😄

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/james-doakes-doakes-curious-suspicious-questioning-gif-14390669560130901665

[swift tinsel]

And if you use a builder those stacks are added to your combo points

So if you have 3 shadow techniques stacks and cast a regular backstab, you get the 1 combo point from backstab plus the 3 shadow techniques combo points

And end up with 4 combo points

[mint violet]

So to build stacks of hidden cp I use any generator, backstab or shuriken or shadowdtrike?

[dusk stone]

auto attacks build it too

[swift tinsel]

50% chance on your 3rd auto and 100% chance on your fourth auto to grant a shadow techniques stack

[mint violet]

I know that there is a talent that makes it 40% more likely to get one, what is the resulting chance?

Okay

[swift tinsel]

So yeah, auto attack to gain stacks, builder to consume stacks to grant one combo point per stack consumed

[dusk stone]

so how do our auto attacks work

are they parallel to builders/finishers or

[mint violet]

But how does the coup optimisation number one work then?

[swift tinsel]

With shadowcraft, if your shadow techniques stacks are 7 or greater during symbols of death they will refund your combo points when you use a spender

[swift tinsel]

Wym parallel

[mint violet]

Just sit for 10 sec and do nothing?

[swift tinsel]

Backstab to build shadow techniques stacks

[tall hatch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[dusk stone]

happen at the same time

[alpine wraith]

sometimes even 20 secs!

[swift tinsel]

They do their own thing

Pretty sure autos are never paused anymore by abilities

[mint violet]

So the backstab will not consume until it has 7 stored?

[dusk stone]

slice and dice is very important then yeah?

[alpine wraith]

you do backstab

[dusk stone]

you can waste refunds

[swift tinsel]

Because of Thousand Cuts

[dusk stone]

if you get a refund at 7 and then use a builder, the refund is wasted

[swift tinsel]

And the increased attack speed means more sht stacks

[swift tinsel]

You only get as many combo points as would fill your cp bar

[mint violet]

Ah

[swift tinsel]

And you typically only get enough stacks for a refund during blades

[dusk stone]

yeah but if you strike as you get refund, you wasted 7 points in cds

[mint violet]

So you full cp

Then baclstab

[swift tinsel]

Unless it’s from coup or you’re lagging really badly you get the refund during the gcd

[ornate lake]

For keys upto 15, is thistle tea better or CB?

[dusk stone]

tea is just better for aoe and cb is better prio/st

but like youre a sub rogue, your prio is already good

[swift tinsel]

So you don’t waste refunds from shadowcraft

[manic salmon]

spill the tea 💅

[ornate lake]

But I am a funnel monkey everywhere except Floodgate

[dusk stone]

the actual choice to be made is if youre using evis or not

not cb

the thing with tea is that outside of dances you can actually do something

also

[swift tinsel]

And if you strike during blades with full cp that’s a skill issue

[dusk stone]

cb allows you to run out of energy in cds too

[mint violet]

But thank you, I am new to this class and it's a bit difficult to find some info

[dusk stone]

so i doubt the veracity of it actually being better ST in keys like half the time

[swift tinsel]

Yeah shadow techniques is a bit interesting

[dusk stone]

gl sub is pretty strong rn

prob better than sin in all cases except for organized groups where trash is ontop of boss and tank is being a goober

[mint violet]

Rn though I am doing 1% parses in 8s 😄 me not very strong

[dusk stone]

do the opener, figure out stuff between opener, do opener again

do not overspend dances, have minimum 1.5 dances and 1.7 symbols for flag window

add the extra shit after you have that done

[honest void]

Atm with sin bugs ye

[mint violet]

To me it feels like I have basic opener and rotation down, but my burst ends at 7m and then goes down on 5 dummies

My gear is fucked for sure

[dusk stone]

in ST?

or aoe

[mint violet]

Aoe

[dusk stone]

ilvl?

[mint violet]

691

[dusk stone]

yeah thats a rotational issue

[mint violet]

Ye, I believe that

But for now missing what the problem is

[dusk stone]

whats your opener look like

[rich spade]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[mint violet]

Well shadowstrike->rupture -> flagilation -> dance -> symbols -> backstab -> secret techniques, then generate and spend with dust and do it again

The part with dance symbols

[dusk stone]

where is blades in that

[finite sequoia]

hey guys, i have aquestion about Supercharger, does the super charged cps stay for the entire duration of symbol, or only for one finisher cast?

[mint violet]

Ye blades after nackstab

[dusk stone]

supercharger lasts for 2 finishers

are you saving two dances for that?

also any 4p at all?

[mint violet]

I would link logs, but they for some reason don't show dance and symbols

No p

0p

[dusk stone]

that hurts a lot yeah

[finite sequoia]

i also have 691 gear 0p and peak around 12m after second sec tec

[mint violet]

You think it might be it?

[finite sequoia]

so you're prob doing something wrong

[dusk stone]

i have no idea

i need to see log

[mint violet]

Ugh

[dusk stone]

there should be at least 2 easy cata's atm

[mint violet]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NkYCWBtJdDQqacz2?fight=3&type=damage-done&source=4

[dusk stone]

lfr raid is also good

[finite sequoia]

why do you cast rupture before flag?

cuz rupture benefits from flag too

[mint violet]

Ye doing raid, waiting for one piece to guarantee 4p

I thought that the applied bleeds just become stronger

After flag

[dusk stone]

opener is wrong

[mint violet]

Do you rupture in flag?

[finite sequoia]

it increases your mastery so yes, rupture would have more dmg

[dusk stone]

blades should be close to sectec

[finite sequoia]

yeah i think its shadow strike into rupture

uhh

strike into flag

sorry

and then ruptures

[mint violet]

Sectec?

[dusk stone]

use backstab after dance, you used storm

secret technique

[mint violet]

A secret technique

[finite sequoia]

yeah you need to backstab to apply unseen blades and also find weakness

i think

after dance

[dusk stone]

after you enter stealth, backstab gives full CP because of premeditation

also what build is this

[mint violet]

From wow head

I copied m+ recommended

It's bad?

[dusk stone]

symbols is 3 seconds late in 2nd dance

which m+ is it the tornado or finality one

[mint violet]

So in the guide it says to use second symbols just before sectec for supercharge

Finality

[dusk stone]

that build is fine yeah

maybe your 1st sectec is late for some reason

it should be 1st or 2nd gcd after dance

[mint violet]

I can record a video on dummies tomorrow, cuz the key surely is kinda scuffed

Late as not in the big window?

Shadow blade and flag

[dusk stone]

just tighten up your opener and make sure its correct

[mint violet]

Sure

Thanks

I do have sacbrood as a trinket

Which is nothing I think

[brave siren]

is icy veins guide good to learn rotation?

[glass cape]

how is sub rogue? fun? good? interesting? looking to do something a little different

[steel jolt]

try it and see

[finite sequoia]

im having good fun with it

most complex spec i've played so far in terms of cd management

which makes it interesting

[glass cape]

would it be difficult to say for someone coming over from outlaw?

[last gate]

best source to learn sub rogue?

give me a video

its like even my keybinds are chineese

[vale widget]

I guess I should push more BP, but I started 3 days ago so.... its enough for me

[finite sequoia]

idk, haven't tried outlaw, but its definitely a lot more complicated than assa

[last gate]

HELP

[uneven fern]

help with what

[mint violet]

Filling in the blanks

[plush roost]

Gouge om bars

Smh

[last gate]

I CANT PLAY WITH MY OWN KEYS

[mint violet]

I think it's a crossword puzzle

[last gate]

pvp bars

too lazy 😄

its like some of them should be closer to my weird fingers

[iron plover]

With 4 piece it’s really fun imo

Adds a bit of complexity in smashing coup v black powder and Shadow strike v Shuriken storm

[dusk stone]

we are less priority and proc based but still have some, sub is more about doing stuff correctly

[iron plover]

And it feels really good when it all lines up

CD management is a big one as well, I mainly do keys and you gotta think of where you will be in 30s-1m to see when you should hold or use CDs

[dusk stone]

sub is very punishing for not being exact with opener

you end up with delayed cds for next flag sometimes

which is not great

[split garden]

!aoe

welp thought that would work lmao

[dusk stone]

rotation is not fundamentally different from ST to AoE we just BP instead of evis

[vale widget]

For me sub is more fun, coming from assa

[split garden]

do u not evis in cds bc coup?

[dusk stone]

you dont evis in cds because of bp at 3 or 4 more targets

[split garden]

o is thats simple? i thought there was a weird "in cds u still st at X targets and outside cds u press bp"

[vale pine]

you start using bp on 4+ targets

[finite sequoia]

how many ruptures should we ideally keep up in aoe?

[dusk stone]

the proper amount before stuff is fully gathered

[vale pine]

theoretically as many as you have targets

but in practice, usually less

[dusk stone]

also you can Slice n Dice w/ Evis once to get the buff going

[finite sequoia]

yeah i mean i guess we're losing out on flagelation if we rupture too much?

[vale pine]

because you would only rupture targets which survive long enough and might not need damage on the adds

[finite sequoia]

or is that not a problem

[hazy breach]

you always use coup

[dusk stone]

you rupture before flag not that much after, 2 ruptures max

[finite sequoia]

huh, rupture bfore flag? all the guides say i should rupture after flag

[dusk stone]

yes because rupture is dynamic it is effected by your damage amps

[split garden]

this is my own lack of knowledge but the bp button doesnt turn into coup right? so u need still press evis when coups up? sorry just picked up rogue 2 days ago

[hazy breach]

Yes you would need to press the evis button

[dusk stone]

evis becomes coup

[turbid edge]

So when coup procs, u press it regardless of ST or AOE or in dance or not?

[dusk stone]

coup gives 5 stacks of flawless form if your target is fazed so its 15% per coup and you get 2 with set bonus so

coup very strong

[split garden]

and do u still shadowstrike in aoe as ur base builder in cds bc it builds to coup and has nible flurry value or is it a different reason

[dusk stone]

yes

except shuriken storm to not waste unseen blade between coups

coup has NF value yes

[split garden]

hm ok ok im following

[cursive vapor]

noticed sometimes im missin some dps, i think the reason was cause at some point when i pressed dance it actually didnt activate or something (maybe cause i was still in the first dance for 1 second) is this a known thing?

[dusk stone]

you cant dance while in dance

[cursive vapor]

that explains it

got myself a really basic dance wa now that i really can see when im in dance and when not

[dusk stone]

i just look at shadowstrike lol

i think im not doing something optimally but i usually only dance after 1st ends

[west tide]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[cursive vapor]

yee in fact its easy to see i know but im in a lil struggle with my ui atm

[neat surge]

!

[cursive vapor]

kinda little mistake still of mine, i see symbols, dance, sectec ready and instant pressing it even when im still in dance

[gilded lodge]

In AOE before you send your burst you rupture before flag. With permanent tricks you do this on the gather. Then when it’s all grouped up you send it.

[dusk stone]

thats prolly fine as long as 1st dance is ending

[finite sequoia]

yeah that makes sense, find it weird the guides all put rupture after flag

[dusk stone]

symbols sectec and then dance when 1st ends

[finite sequoia]

thanks for the answer

[cursive vapor]

well i guess sometimes it wasnt ending ^^

[dusk stone]

there's prolly some pandemic thing in there somewhere but i dont do vod reviews

[manic salmon]

ok real talk

[gilded lodge]

You’re looking at ST opener or aoe openers in a vacuum where all the mobs are magically gathered. You don’t want to be rupturing multiple times during your bust windows

[manic salmon]

can we get a secret technique icon update

because what is that goofy looking face

[cursive vapor]

naah its dope

[manic salmon]

for a finisher that hits really hard it should not be that goofy

not to mention it does not represent either secret or technique

its just a goofy looking guy

[cursive vapor]

supposed to be a shadow clone?

[gilded lodge]

Bro the sub spec icon is a goofy looking guy in the bushes

[manic salmon]

okay real REAL talk

i think subtlety and assassination spec names should be switched

poisons are subtle meanwhile assassinations are carried out in one hit kinda like how sub plays you know

but the spec icon is cool methinks

kind of what a rogue should be. stealthy guy

[sullen hare]

Yeah but we love Dave

[cursive vapor]

so thats dave?

[sullen hare]

Yeah. Not familiar with the meme?

[cursive vapor]

aahhhh ye, i am

[sullen hare]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1hnfw22/i_asked_my_non_gamer_wife_to_guess_these_wow_spec/

[left ledge]

I see two of him

[manic salmon]

dave

[vale pine]

jane is the female dave version

[cursive vapor]

poisoner, pirate, ✨ dave✨

[merry agate]

this must be rigged

[manic salmon]

match made in heaven

jane and dave ship

💅

[slate lantern]

They're both voyeurists

[real pumice]

yo guys, just a question about the abandon function in M+. if the time is over we cant abandon anymore. so that means we can just leave the group ?

[manic salmon]

When theres no abandon button

you just leave

[cedar willow]

anyone getting delayed GCD when coup goes off? like while the animation happens?

[real pumice]

without gettint the debuff ?

[manic salmon]

yup

[real pumice]

ok ty

[manic salmon]

coup gcd is 1.2 sec

[cedar willow]

so coup = cant fit 8 gcp in standdard dance?

[hazy breach]

You can

[cedar willow]

follow up question; what's you guys' spellqueue timing and ping?

[hazy breach]

But you have 0.6 seconds of leeway instead of 1s like it should be

(since you have 2 coups)

[compact cobalt]

Many fireballs

Honestly she ain't wrong

[turbid edge]

Is the tldr of how sub rogue does big dmg that flag ramps your damage by stacking when u use cp, then u get flawless form stacks from coup, macabre stacks, symbols supercharges big sectech, then u keep ramping more into a big symbols supercharged sectech with cb for the 2nd dance? So it's big burst with nimble going on too and then low DPS outside of cds, then back to 2 big bursts from sectech in 1.5 min?

[astral axle]

the secret to sub damage is backstab soup

[ornate lake]

Pretty much this, unironically

Btw did my first key as a sub, 11 DB.

15M burst on 1 st boss and 6M overall on the first boss

Tea sub is easier to play in keys too. No energy issues

[daring agate]

im doing something wrong then. my dmg is god awful

[ornate lake]

Reminds me of the SL S2 sub rogue with the flag covenant leggo

[hallow night]

The coup de grace optimization says during shadowblades, but does it also apply in regular dance in really big aoe where shuriken storm would grant max combo points anyways?

[keen yew]

hi guys, currently progging saladhar, and (finally) got my hands on a prism, but sadly no forge (nor antenna) , any thought on wether i should run lily + prism or pacemaker+prism ? doesn't seem like it would increase much the throughput but would be a hassle to manage button wise

[astral axle]

The answer lies in sims

It probably will be pacemaker + prism

[hallow night]

pacemaker + prism

[keen yew]

well im not that expert in sims so id be able to tell that there's adds at 3m and a dmg amp at 4m30, otherwise in pure st it would be pacemaker+prism

[rotund rock]

any can look at logs in here?

[astral axle]

What is 1.5 + 1.5?

[misty ravine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[astral axle]

You're thinking to much about it is what I mean. If you send things line up basically on cooldown. Single target is what you want, because truthfully, our single target does a lot of burst cleave as is

[misty ravine]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[keen yew]

tbf i would have run pacemaker either way, but i still wondered

[warm marlin]

you can do 3min prism on adds into 9 stack prism on damage amp

or prism at 90s, 0 stack on adds, 18 on dmg amp

whatever raid needs

[upper narwhal]

The ability to shift prism timers is so good for this raid

[rotund rock]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CrA9f8X2NmGhPQwB?fight=33&type=casts&source=42&view=timeline if any1 can take a look and be straight about what im doing wrong lmk pls honestly dont really know.

[jagged rover]

its really nice. I went from using prism on my 90s cds on araz to holding it for first damage amp. Crazy amount of boss damage from that change

still need to clean things up to kill tomorrow, but I went from being roughly the same boss damage as our druid to this

[glacial haven]

do we have a command for the simbols macro to not use 2 in a row by mistake

[manic ice]

anyone have combo point WA that outlines CP's as you get shadow techniques stacks

[tender locust]

trying sub a bit atm. Blackpowder should be lower in a +10 floodgate should be lower, right?

[raven jackal]

So I see stuff that says macro thistle tea into dance and forget about it, but wouldn't that desync tea from your shadowblades?

[swift tinsel]

saw some Dave disrespect earlier, what gives

[rapid stream]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[mystic minnow]

Sort of yea, but at the end of the day it’s better to have it with your dances when you have charges since it’ll get auto used all the time anyways

[raven jackal]

Man I hate that thistle tea change. Whatever dev did that does not play rogue

[hollow roost]

Hi, is there any explenation why sub rogues are jumping so high in 2nd phase of dimencius and then later on in last?

[raven jackal]

They're using their CDs there, and since they hit like 3 damage buttons a minute, that means using their CDs is massive damage

[dreamy pumice]

when looking at logs compared to mine my evis is higher than coup and the top dude has coup way higher than evis is there something im doing wrong causing that for st?

[rapid torrent]

Many adds in p2 during our CDs, then damage amp which sub excels at in p3

[hollow roost]

but they are not at the top on 1st phase and they have their CDs trhere

[shrewd lantern]

fight probs phases at a weird time on mythic dimmy

[slate lantern]

You're sending shadow dance more than you should be in just a cursory glance of your log, check out hachas spreadsheet which has cd timing and approx when you can send what:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1uQH2cyFpJH9eVS_GC58EHYylpZM7Qtqt-CfHCF-pRBY/htmlview#gid=161258119

Also your CB timing in between is a bit off and you delay your 1:30 just a bit, and end up cbing evis which is a big nono

[rotund rock]

hmm ok thx yea the cb on evis was accident

but like even without that i feel like at 709 i should be doing more dmg

not sure my dmg in keys is good just not used to raid yet ig

[shrewd lantern]

I mean if you fuck up your cds as sub your dps goes in the toilet

[civic swallow]

How annoying is it to grab those Antenna orbs with that trinket?

[bitter halo]

Is macroing BS and SS a dps loss?

[dusk stone]

Tea randomly uses itself below 30% energy

[snow berry]

!MACRO

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[rotund rock]

how do i track the stacks of coup whats it called

[feral knot]

Escalating Blade

[pearl swan]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rotund rock]

so is there ever a time where i symbols/st and no dance inbetween cds or nah

or just depends

cuz the spreadsheet says so but ppls logs they dont so

[slate lantern]

Sub in pure st really isn't that great rn, and tends to be a hard spec to parse in cause there a lot of lifers/one tricks that are v good at it

[rotund rock]

yea i mean im not trippin about that just like wanna play better yaknow

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah sub you need to do your cds correct

sin you can kind of fuck around and have bad globals

and still parse orange

[civic swallow]

Just picked up Lily, should I combine with Sigil of the Cosmic Hunt or Antenna for M+?

[rotund rock]

yea i usually have played sin

last time i played sub in raid was DF

[slate lantern]

[uncut oriole]

I have a shadow blades macro that uses my trinket then casts shadow blades. Both are 1:30 cd's, but somehow they get desynced. What could be causing that?

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah sin is such a drooler spec

100 while not realizing wtf i did

[slate lantern]

The weekly affix

[shrewd lantern]

[rotund rock]

sin is just broing bro

boring

in raid at least

[uncut oriole]

Ahhh fuck that makes sense now

Thanks!

[shrewd lantern]

Nothing tops df sub early on

in terms of awful specs

[rotund rock]

ye lol

outlaw was my main in DF

[shrewd lantern]

press tea

gloomblade x10000

[rotund rock]

so when is it correct to symbols/ST outside of cds

[dusk stone]

Sub is good now

We should enjoy it while we can

[rotund rock]

cuz i think i might be sending dance when i shouldnt

in that sitch

[dusk stone]

When sectec is off cd and not after 30s remaining on flag

Have 1.5 dqnces 1.7 symbols minimum

[young heart]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[shrewd lantern]

Turns beinn able to coup twice

is very powerful

[sullen hare]

[clever delta]

bro what is this coup proc 😄

[vestal escarp]

Bro?

Wheres your skill

[weary kite]

went intergalactic

[dusk stone]

Looks normal to me

[vestal escarp]

Do it the same

[clever delta]

i love it

[shrewd lantern]

Little unlucky unseen procs

[clever delta]

four coupes in one dance

[weary kite]

supercharged plus mega stacked DM

[dusk stone]

2 really

[clever delta]

guys what happen on fractilus if i shadowstep boss? on ptr it was fucked up

[flat wyvern]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[flat wyvern]

!coldblood

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[frail kindle]

You just go in front of boss it’s fine

[clever delta]

ty

[high eagle]

whats everyone running for weapon consumable? mana oil or stone?

[dusk stone]

Im using stone

[celest topaz]

just wondering since ive pretty much struggle to have flawless form not up, whats the point in this

[marble comet]

" However the 4-piece bonus has some minor gameplay alterations. During Shadow Blades Icon Shadow Blades we want to cast Shuriken Storm Icon Shuriken Storm in-between your two Coup de Grace Icon Coup de Graces, as it minimizes the risk of losing out on a stack for your upcoming Coup de Grace Icon Coup de Grace. It is also possible that outside of your cooldowns you will not be able to reach 6 or more combo points in the 5 second time window for using your second Coup de Grace Icon Coup de Grace, in this case casting it with less than 6 combo points is way better than letting the bonus go wasted."

can someone explain me this proberly?

[distant mist]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

If 4p and blades up generate with shuriken storm

[dusk stone]

When im doing tfd opener and my dance ends, i go symbols sectec and then dance as sectec is about to hit right

Or is symbols/dance macro into 2nd dance fine or is there some pandemic thing i should be doing with symbols

[marble comet]

why

[hazy breach]

Strike and backstab procs give you stacks towards your next coup

But you cant get that while 4p is up, so the stack gets wasted

[marble comet]

cant i just use the stacks?

[inner garnet]

In what scenarios are you going Finality over The Rotten?

[hazy breach]

You cannot press coup without any combo points no

[marble comet]

im doing something massivly wrong but cant find it ..

[hazy breach]

Probably not getting 2x dances, 2x symbols and 2x sectechs in every shadow blades

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[marble comet]

im training on dummy and i do it

[dusk stone]

Posting a log would help

[marble comet]

will record one - dont have it acitve

[graceful perch]

can someone look over my log and maybe help findingmistakes i did?

soulbinder mythic log

[twilit gorge]

so during shadow dance, you only shuriken storm for in between coup de grace's?

[dusk stone]

Generally yeah

[misty hedge]

So during shadow blades I would get 4 coups and so 2 cast of storms?

[safe fog]

you wont always get 4 coups

depends on how many stacks you start at and tier proc rng

[misty hedge]

So when he said between coups… which coup is it? Do I always get two but not four?

[dusk stone]

You use storm during blades to not waste unseen blade procs because you cant build them with 4p active

[safe fog]

when you use coup with s3 4p you can cast it again during 5s window

[misty hedge]

Yes I see that count down on the wa. So in that 5 second window is when I should storm?

[mighty topaz]

hey guys quick question for a noob in sub in aoe should i spam black powder or eviscerate

[safe fog]

again amount of coups depends

its between 1 and 3

[dusk stone]

Yes

Because coup needs cp like any finisher

[safe fog]

or 2 and 6 if you want to count them separate

[dusk stone]

If you get a coup refund obviously no storm then

[narrow night]

when should you use tea in m+?

with shadow dance in general or whats the best play?

[safe fog]

ay good question been wondering the same

it feels good to play but archon right now show cb build

[hollow heron]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusk stone]

You macro tea to dance and forget about it

[narrow night]

i played that wanna try tea bc using to 2 shuriken storm and to be oom kinda sucks

[narrow night]

ok ty

[dusk stone]

I just dont think cb is good in keys

Maybe parses dont show that

[shrewd lantern]

It gives you big st blast

[dusk stone]

But like the loss of cdr and the fact you run out of energy in cds

Which is also cdr loss

[shrewd lantern]

People play an energy class and are surprised

there are downtime periods

[dusk stone]

This is inside of cds too

[narrow night]

the trick is to just tunnel in cds and do 0 utility in cds :)))

[safe fog]

you shouldnt run out of energy in cds

[narrow night]

really fun in hoa

[shrewd lantern]

I’ve never run out of energy in cds

[mighty topaz]

hey guys quick question for a noob in sub in aoe should i spam black powder or eviscerate

[dusk stone]

Nah using zero CC you run out

[safe fog]

with all the cheated combo points you get giga refunds

[dusk stone]

I asked stealthi about this, apparently one condition it happens under is tfd

[safe fog]

even starting cds you get symbols to kickstart it

[narrow night]

did you ever try to press faint during cds

[shrewd lantern]

yeah once

[dusk stone]

But its happened to me multiple times

[shrewd lantern]

its called afking autoing the boss for 10 seconds

before cds

build up sht too

[dusk stone]

Im not rly counting dcds in this either

You just naturally run out with tfd i think but i havent extensively tracked

[shrewd lantern]

i still remember the kush clip

”no i will not feint during my dance heal my character”

[safe fog]

feels like the only time im out of energy is if the fight lasts very long and im just sitting there backstabbing

[dusk stone]

But also yeah thats just another argument for why i dont like cb, you get less dcds

[mighty topaz]

if im going tea what other than cb should i remove?

[dusk stone]

I used feint 38 times last dawnbreaker

[shrewd lantern]

i mean its ok to just stand there at 7pts autoattacking

building sht for next flag

if its close

[sick basin]

Man feint drains so much energy it makes me sad

[narrow night]

you always play the extra combo point and induction the choice is between tea and coldblood

[dusk stone]

No

[safe fog]

oh no thats half a backstab

[dusk stone]

Having no energy in flag window is what i was talking about

[shrewd lantern]

that literally

doesnt happen

unless you trolled

[dusty flare]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[dusk stone]

It does though with tfd

[shrewd lantern]

Literally never had it happen

[safe fog]

been playing tfd exclusively and never had that problem

[dusk stone]

Ive literally seen strike and just sat rhere waiting for energy

Which implies both symbols and dance being up

[narrow night]

you have weird 1 sec delays during abilities when you have to use kidney or faint

[shrewd lantern]

idk maybe you didnt pool before cds

[haughty spire]

where can i find these charts?

[shrewd lantern]

kidney lmfao

banned

[clever delta]

its wclogs mate

[dusk stone]

Like you should be using kidney and cheapshot too

[shrewd lantern]

Nope

[dusk stone]

I had 10 kidney alone last priory

[safe fog]

outside cds it makes no difference if you use kidney or a weakass eviscerate

[shrewd lantern]

not gonna kidney mid cds

[narrow night]

they mean during shadow dance windows

[safe fog]

both give you refunds anyway

[narrow night]

in pvp you have to do that

[dusk stone]

That too

Cast going off in cds means someone dies in high keys

[swift tinsel]

yeah no if I'm in cds that's someone else's job lol I'll happily kidney outside of the only time i do damage

[shrewd lantern]

ok and they should have gotten the kick

if it was theirs

if people are missing kicks at higher keys they dont deserve to time

[dusk stone]

Idk too many bricked keys to not just backpack everything

[safe fog]

during cds best i can do is kick

[swift tinsel]

the people I play with know how sub works so they don't make me

which is nice

[dusk stone]

Cheapshot is what is extra in that imo

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah any good group you should have your assigned target

for kick

[swift tinsel]

so if its my kick and someone else's is up we just switch

[shrewd lantern]

i only kidney if i dont have cds

[swift tinsel]

but usually I wait until I know I'm safe to send cd's without worrying about it

[dusk stone]

Yh my group on break for a month in poe2 so im pugging

Getting full use of cds is privilege

[shrewd lantern]

and its the start so i 100% know its not on dr

[swift tinsel]

ye I play with a dh a lot so stun dr is a thing

[mighty topaz]

in heavy aoe should i spam black powder or evi?

[swift tinsel]

same with sham and cap totem

[shrewd lantern]

i wouldnt play sub if i could only get half value of cds

[swift tinsel]

check the name homie

[shrewd lantern]

or some shit

[dusk stone]

At minimum kidney and cheap are interrupts

[shrewd lantern]

ngl

[safe fog]

depends

[dusk stone]

Also i keep giga easy keybind for kidney so hard to resist using

[swift tinsel]

unless you want prio you bp

[safe fog]

if you have prio target and no better funnel class you will want to evi

[mighty topaz]

aight ty

[shrewd lantern]

tbh every good tank has an aoe stun

brew prot war dh

[swift tinsel]

yeah its kinda annoying

but also stun is pretty much king

blinds/knockups can be okay

[shrewd lantern]

and dh wants to rip theirs asap

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[shrewd lantern]

for more souls

[dusk stone]

What keys are you doing haptics

[swift tinsel]

I'm just doing 10-11's atm until I get prism

[dusk stone]

Yeah im pugging 13s its bad atm

You have to carry everything

[swift tinsel]

I haven't been pugging this season which is a first

[dusk stone]

Dps cc dtps, everything

[swift tinsel]

pretty much guaranteed skyfury

[mighty citrus]

Most 12 pugs has been fine for me. You carry a lot as sub imo

[shrewd lantern]

Because the good players arent pugging

past 10-12

[dusk stone]

12s are easy

[swift tinsel]

and either have warrior tank havoc or vdh fury

[dusk stone]

13s are the pug wall

[shrewd lantern]

because theres no reason to do above 12

[swift tinsel]

feeling quite spoiled

[mighty citrus]

I mean I just do 12 for crest cause no affix 😂

Did not try 13 yet

[swift tinsel]

we're getting people portals in guild atm and helping people catch up on gear slots since raid has been stingy

[shrewd lantern]

yeah 12s are vault keys no affix territory

[narrow night]

the first brickwall key is 15 priory imo

[shrewd lantern]

pugging above 12 is like going to sbarro

[narrow night]

bc the mobs beat yo ass

[dusk stone]

I ran a key earlier where i had as many interrupts as shaman healer not counting kidney/cheap/blind, used feint 38 times, 11 evasion 8 vials

[shrewd lantern]

and then complain the pizza sucks

[narrow night]

everything below aint that bad

[dusk stone]

Still died to damage, pug life rough

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah because no one good pugs

above vault/gear farm key levels

[mighty topaz]

is it worth spreading rupture ?

[dusk stone]

Yes but its my intent to push keys

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[narrow night]

you shouldnt look at others mistakes but try to look for smth you can improve to time more things

you can change yourself not others

[mighty topaz]

ty

[livid brook]

Guys, how do u sim for sub in raid, where's there's occasional cleave?

[shrewd lantern]

network more then

[dusk stone]

Networking on area 52 isnt the greatest

[shrewd lantern]

Nothing is server limited

[dusk stone]

I tried the discord servers, none of them are good so far

[shrewd lantern]

I usually found people through misc sources

bit unfortunate best pvp disc i know loves dropping the gamerword

I mean pugging theres always a few red flags

male blood/night elf

bad mog

[dusk stone]

Dawn seems like its gonna be a really hard key for healers at 18/19

[safe fog]

easier than it is on 10s

[shrewd lantern]

hard key for healers=you actually have to do your job

and not be a passenger princess

[dusk stone]

The problem with pugging is that you cant always run your own key all the time

Got 13 flood today, but 13 streets i dont need

[safe fog]

that depends on your goals

[shrewd lantern]

its called making friends

[safe fog]

if you want to improve your score then yeah

[shrewd lantern]

You’re gonna have to network to get title eventually

[safe fog]

if you want to just play the game and have fun its perfectly fine

[dusk stone]

Well its also a waste of time in some ways to network at 13s, what are you going to do, replace the team every 2 levels

[narrow night]

ngl i doubt will strike a lot of gold in 13s

[shrewd lantern]

I mean you make note of whos good

you wont strike alot of gold pugging on lfg regardless

[dusk stone]

Pmuch yeah but occasionally you find something

[undone heart]

should i use forge lilly or forge seaforium

[shrewd lantern]

Healer is the most carried role

in keys honestly

[dusk stone]

Lilly seaforium

[narrow night]

that what sims better

[dusk stone]

But check sims

Forge is 2 minute

[shrewd lantern]

shaman healers with sub 10 kicks

in 30 minutes

I just finish the run

then link the wowhead entry for windshear

with the cooldown circled

[safe fog]

https://tenor.com/view/discord-pins-read-i-can't-read-bobby-hill-gif-14289141356498021536

[undone heart]

do you do patchwork like 7 targets

[dusk stone]

Meh even the ones who do that still might not have the throughput

[undone heart]

for m+ sims

[dusk stone]

What are you simming for?

[undone heart]

m+

[dusk stone]

No like for what aspect

Gear, your comparison to the sim or what

[undone heart]

lilly or seaforium

just which one is better

[dusk stone]

It depends

[undone heart]

on?

[iron plover]

This was my experience trying to get +12 halls lmao

5 failed groups before I finally got it

[dusk stone]

Forge is not good without prism, lilly and seaforium are -1.5% behind prism + antenna

[narrow night]

prob on average double on use with araz is better

[iron plover]

Never ever had close to that much trouble

[narrow night]

but its a case by case thing

[dusk stone]

Its worse in 13s

Sub especcially doesnt want 2 min trinkets unless special condition like prism forge

Priory signet was awful for us last seasin

[undone heart]

so use lilly forge

[narrow night]

araz lily simmed for me not that badly signet lily simmed like dogshit

[safe fog]

whats up with prism forge, forge start coz no prism stacks then just send on dances?

[dusk stone]

Seaforium + lily what i reccomend

[narrow night]

araz carries the double on use thing

[dusk stone]

Lily + forge is not good

[dusk stone]

Its worse everywhere everytime except last 2 bosses because you can 18 stack prism

[slate basin]

if im going into cds with a coup set up, do we just eat that we don't get unseen blade stacks from the initial backstab in dance?

[dusk stone]

Yeah

[safe fog]

yes, it doesnt matter anyway since you reset them with secetc

[dusk stone]

Its only 1 missed though and not always so

Its ok

[iron plover]

Yea I bet, I found the timer the tightest on that dungeon

[safe fog]

its actually better to spend it there for unseen blade damage and fazed on target

[iron plover]

streets on the other hand

Lmfao so fucking easy

[narrow night]

nvm you are right i just checked again

[dusk stone]

You gain literally nothing from that combo

[narrow night]

lily and fractilus trinket sim good

got that mixed

[dusk stone]

Araz is nice because it allows you to move prism around for dmg amp / platform

[narrow night]

when araz trinket hits like a truck then it could be worth it

but i was wrong

[dusk stone]

Well its effectivrly a 3 min trinket

So the value is halved

If it was 90 sec different discussion

[safe fog]

we're gonna need blizzard to add second prism so we can alternate full stacks

[dusk stone]

Also the primary stat loss from passive hurts a lot too

From lilly araz

[undone heart]

so basically you double on use for sub but not assa

or ma i just being stupid

[dusk stone]

Sim it

[proper latch]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[undone heart]

i did it says forge seaforium is better for sub

[narrow night]

assa aint that bursty like sub

sub dmg is like 90% out of your 1:30 cds

[undone heart]

true

[narrow night]

and double on use without araz only sims better in dungeon slice not in single target

so its still not by default better

[dusk stone]

Surprising araz sims better at all in aoe

[finite hedge]

Did something weird happen to cold blood? LE weak aura for some reason isn't tracking it today. It did on thursday. Also it doesn't work in a macro. But it does work in a macro for sin.

it says spell not learned trying to cast it in a macro

[left ledge]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[dusk stone]

That yeah

[finite hedge]

oh, thanks

[ornate heron]

when youre playing the rotten, your first builder in SD is still backstab. does that mean the second one is shuriken storm in aoe so you can use the rotten to apply find weakness?

[left ledge]

yes you can storm once to apply

[dusk stone]

Use it only if you need to apply fw

[left ledge]

or just storm instead of the stab

[ornate heron]

ah only in aoe though

[left ledge]

if you're in aoe there's not really a reason to stab for rotten over storm

[ornate heron]

in ST it would always be backstab?

[left ledge]

yes

[ornate heron]

kk ty

[narrow night]

afaik they fixed that bug and your first ability could be storm too

[swift tinsel]

once you hit 5 targets there's no dps gain to backstab

[dusk stone]

Stab -> sectec -> storm (only if fw is not on mob) it wont be the cast in the opener in keys because you put FW on during the gather

[left ledge]

[safe fog]

doesnt shadowstrike apply fw anyway or am i understanding it wrong

[swift tinsel]

yes

[left ledge]

yeah it does

[dusk stone]

Its worth dropping stab regardless of DM stack? If above 5 targets

[swift tinsel]

it counts as a Stealth ability to apply FW always

[ornate heron]

but sec tec is aoe and if you FW with storm you can sec tec more FW'd mobs hehe

[left ledge]

you dont play around DM stacks

[swift tinsel]

it becomes dps neutral to stab at 5 targets

well

you do play around DM stacks with bs

[dusk stone]

Dm is your whole dance thougj

[left ledge]

i meant further than the one gcd

[dusk stone]

Like no way

[swift tinsel]

yeah its just bs bc it also gets premed

[left ledge]

DM is your whole dance but outside of stab first there really is nothing to play around

[swift tinsel]

once you hit a certain target count the premed thing goes away bc storm gens as many cp

[left ledge]

it is a dont think about it sort of talent

[swift tinsel]

ye

[dusk stone]

What i also realized is if this is keys you dont storm for FW until 2nd dance

[left ledge]

uh

idk about that

[swift tinsel]

sometimes there just happens to be something that pops up that makes getting the extra DM stack barely above margin of error

[left ledge]

just apply FW as things are being gathered

[swift tinsel]

you just kinda storm as you gather

[left ledge]

or shortly before going into dance

[swift tinsel]

and storm once in blades between coups

[left ledge]

if you dont have time as it is being gathered, just storm 1-2 times before dance generally

[gilded ferry]

Do we have any structure like in shadowdust days?

[swift tinsel]

which is why I'm not sold on rotten for fw

[swift tinsel]

wym

like a spreadsheet

[gilded ferry]

Something to hold on to, finding hard to time when to hold, when to send etc

[left ledge]

send when you can damage the mobs for 15+ seconds

[swift tinsel]

typically 2x dance/sod/sectech between blades

[left ledge]

there's not really a structure to when to hold

[swift tinsel]

use when it makes sense during a fight

[left ledge]

you either know what you're popping on, or you're sending when you can

[gilded ferry]

Ok, that helps me a little bit more

[swift tinsel]

lorrgs.io helps a ton

you can see where top logs use their abilities

[gilded ferry]

My brain does not work well with, go with it

[dusk stone]

Holding also losses flags later in the key occasionally

[swift tinsel]

it shows them in relation to boss abilities or phases

[left ledge]

i mean if you're talking about dances for cds

when flag is 30 sec away start building up dances (do not use dance/sod)

[swift tinsel]

https://lorrgs.io/

[left ledge]

under 20 sec for flag you can start holding combo points and sht

[swift tinsel]

can take a look at each boss fight

and get ideas

[gilded ferry]

I mean like, we need 2 dances and 2 symbols for CDS, but, timing that to me is getting hard

[swift tinsel]

also if you use MRT or Liquid Timeline Reminders you can import those timings directly

[left ledge]

yeah just follow this rule

if you just build your charges up over 30 seconds

you'll have your dances and sod

[swift tinsel]

^^

very easy-to-follow general rule

[gilded ferry]

Ok, that helps a ton actually

In shadowdust days It was a spreadsheet Spec (literally) and It was easier for my Excel brain

[left ledge]

when flag is up, your dance should be at 1 charge and approx 30 sec to next charge

[dusk stone]

We dont have dust sadly

[left ledge]

yeah shadowdust has been removed for being too toxic to the spec probably

fun to optimize, terrible to balance and for newer players

[swift tinsel]

they didn't like that it 'required' the sheet or figured out timings

[left ledge]

i mean it also required you dont fuck up

at all

[dusk stone]

Bro just let me cook

[left ledge]

and if you did, you were completely fucked

[gilded ferry]

No Room for error yeah

[left ledge]

tindral opener was pretty tight

not to mention the desync between flag and blades

meant that not each use of dust was the same

very fun to optimize and play properly, but it was just never going to become balanced

[dusk stone]

Sounds like it had skill sky instead of skill ceiling tho

[left ledge]

nah it had a ceiling

[dusk stone]

Wouldve been so fun to play sround with

[left ledge]

because eventually you just optimize when to press the buttons

and mrt personal note just tells you everything

i mean you just had to copy stealthi's notes

plug them in somewhere

and it solved dust for you

[dusk stone]

Was the same for keys?

[left ledge]

sub didnt play keys

[dusk stone]

Gross

[left ledge]

they completely butchered sub in keys in the rework

think it went from one of the best specs

to borderline unplayable

[dusk stone]

It just sounds fun though y'know having to think for variable timers on stuff

[left ledge]

its a balancing nightmare

[dusk stone]

I see

[left ledge]

honestly im not quite sure why they even kept dust in, in the first place

lack of ideas maybe from shadowlands to df for talent tree fillers

[swift tinsel]

dust keys was lowkey fun

didn't play it a ton but did have a good time with it

[left ledge]

i mean how

[swift tinsel]

bc you could pull your cds to have them all the time

for whenever you wanted them

[left ledge]

sure but you did 0 damage anyways in aoe

unless it was the one pull in academy

[swift tinsel]

you could be a solo prio machine and boss obliterator

[left ledge]

yeah like i said

for the first boss of academy basically

[gilded ferry]

Dont you remember sub in shadowlands? When we did not have bp yet

[swift tinsel]

or any time you wanted to kill something

[left ledge]

after which you would swap out of sub

[gilded ferry]

The only aoe we had was sectec

[left ledge]

what

we had bp in shadowlands

we didnt run sectec

[gilded ferry]

Later

[swift tinsel]

yeah was gonna say lol

[gilded ferry]

Natria we did not have bp yet

Did we?

[left ledge]

sectec wasnt talented until DF's rework

[lapis dune]

Any beautiful and sexy (sub)rogue player wants to run some keys (12s-13s) with a fdk by any chance atm?

lmk.

[gilded ferry]

Im sure that bp was after Nathria

[swift tinsel]

BP was 9.0.1

[gilded ferry]

What

[left ledge]

bp was introduced in SL beta

originally it was shadow vault or some shit

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[left ledge]

then they reworked it to black powder

and sub rogue became a spinning machine

all the way until DF s3

sub rogues were spinning everywhere

[shrewd lantern]

Bp was introduced

[left ledge]

we had 0 burst, ALL consistent damage

[shrewd lantern]

same time dance lost 200% shuriken modifier

That was a time

when shuriken storm did big dammies

[left ledge]

was that in the beta

i dont really remember

all i vividly remember from SL beta was how disgusting akaari was going to be

and then it got gutted and turned into sub rogue bane

[shrewd lantern]

Might have been bfa beta

[gilded ferry]

Akaari was awesome in beta

[shrewd lantern]

Also i remember when sectech first came out

it was so shit you had to fulfill like 3 prereqs

[left ledge]

well if it was BFA beta it def wasnt around bp time

[shrewd lantern]

before it was worth over evis

[left ledge]

bp was SL

[shrewd lantern]

Oh yeah bp was hardcapped

at a time

[gilded ferry]

MA for doing that Dungeon with the weapons

[shrewd lantern]

dark days

[gilded ferry]

Was so much fun

[shrewd lantern]

Its so funny people cite zul when talking “sub funnel”

and not legion where

shuriken combo was 10%

per stack

[left ledge]

people cite zul because that is what got sub nerfed into the ground

not legion

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah its where it became a problem

due to infinite piss adds