subtlety

[round latch]

well sin has a 1:30 window with 4p doesnt it

[tepid trellis]

yes but FB assa

[wild hornet]

wouldnt HOA be sort on that list aswell?

[tepid trellis]

cant cleave

[round latch]

true

[vale pine]

Fb has inverse target scaling

[round latch]

but u said full st

[vale pine]

so you won't play it on mixed fights

or in m+

it might be better than sub if you had no inverse scaling

[tepid trellis]

assa claps sub's ass on AoE dungeons

[mortal trail]

Whats the point on double on use trinket? My sims doesnt recommend double on use, prism + antenna is siming higher for me

[vale pine]

and this besides bugs ^^

[vale pine]

control

the last 2 fights benefit from it, because you have burst on e.g. platforms

it isn't rly better outside of that

you can hold prism too if there is a amp phase and don't need a 2nd active for that to work

[tepid trellis]

i never mentioned AoE or single target for 90sec comment its purely about the last two bosses, which has both dmg amps that lines up for 90s and has AoE bursts you need to do

[vale pine]

so playing double on use outside of the last 2 bosses is just preference

[mortal trail]

I guessed that its to use 1 trinket on each CDs so u get to 3 min prism

[tepid trellis]

and sub as one of the strongest AOE bursts, just doesent sustain it

[modest river]

blizz should give us the third charge of dance and call it even

[tepid trellis]

wont really fix anything

we still have the majority of our dmg in flag windows

so

[odd knoll]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tepid trellis]

if they shifted the dmg into dances

then yea

[wild hornet]

sounds like one more dance between cds

[turbid edge]

Will I beat frost dks or ret pallies in overall if I play sub?

[modest river]

idea is to have a dance to use 25 seconds before cds and still have 2 dances for cds, but yea, its minimal, just fun

[wild hornet]

i think after assa lost their sdance they should buff dance

[round latch]

if thats the case u make sense yeah

[wild hornet]

[tepid trellis]

in +10s yes

and prolly rets in high keys

[turbid edge]

Not 14s because we can't sustain?

[tepid trellis]

dont think you will beat a good dk

in a higher key

[wild hornet]

you technically can beat anyone if youre better than them

[turbid edge]

I'm talking equal skill level

[tepid trellis]

think dk and sub doesent similarly in terms of overall dmg

DK just does more outside of cds

[round latch]

yup DK pumps more in general

sub looks more like ret

[tepid trellis]

ret is constant dmg

but if it cant snipe all the smallies

it doesent do alot

so ret is very good in weekly keys, cuz its upfront dmg

so they steal the pad

they cant do that in higher keys

kinda similar to the way Fury warrior works

[round latch]

its not outlaw though,has wings and also two builds

isnt templar the flatline one

[tepid trellis]

nothing is as flat as outlaw

[unreal atlas]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[round latch]

ye

[turbid edge]

How do u compare the damage profile of sub and sin? Sin still has decent prio/funnel even if some is buggy, has consistent AOE damage even outside of cds, and sub has higher full ST boss damage in m+ but in big aoe pulls their DPS is all pad?

[tepid trellis]

sub will burst ALOT harder in Aoe

but it will drop

Assa AoE is just tuned insanely high

and just does it all the time

[turbid edge]

In what size pulls does sub perform best in?

[tepid trellis]

where as sub, sure you can burst 60mil on a massive pack

but your out of cd dmg aint that good

[turbid edge]

60mil

Damn, symbols dance bp spam isnt that great?

[tepid trellis]

no

[upbeat escarp]

I get too depressed playing sin when doing 0 dmg to bosses so i just stick to sub

[rotund rock]

how much crit is good for tea build

[round latch]

thats a reality

[turbid edge]

Yeah I don't know.... On pure ST in m+, sin is doing like 2.3m. it's depresso unless tank pulls adds in

And even on bosses that spawn adds, I never know what to do besides CT because they die so fast

[frozen elm]

Lol, 3mil+ as assa om full st bosses in keys, sub is around 4.2

[upbeat escarp]

You would need tank to pull a pack into boss for sin

To get reliable funnel

[cerulean sail]

overall for raid , would u suggest assa or sub ? if i just wanna one trick not changing depending of boss? cause gems etc cost alot ^^

[frozen elm]

Yes, but its still 3mil + in st

[tight monolith]

you can play both with same consumables/enchants tbf

[upbeat escarp]

Just play both gems and consums do not matter almost at all

[tight monolith]

but if you want to onetrick, just go what you find the most fun

[stone patrol]

i have so problems with cd management in keys as sub its crazy wtf..

[wild hornet]

does improved sstorm help benefit the coup 4p optimization?

[turbid edge]

Yeah but some bosses lot less like dawnbreaker first boss or even flood last boss

[tepid trellis]

not really

[wild hornet]

back to shadow focus i go

[tepid trellis]

take that 0.1 talent

go for it

as long as you are only fighting 1 mob

all the time

go for it that is

[frozen elm]

U should have 3mil+ last boss flood

[static juniper]

i am once again asking for your simulationcraft support. Does anyone have the string for the up-to-date consumables for the sim?

[wild hornet]

placebo effect that it feels better

[supple verge]

nice

[tepid trellis]

its not even placebo, it doesent actually do anything lmfao

[tepid trellis]

tru tru, mans was cranking

[wispy crystal]

im confused as Sub, do i black powder on 4+ targets or just shadowstrike + evis?

[tepid trellis]

strike + bp

at 4 or more

targets

[wild hornet]

yeah thats why i called it placebo, does fuck all

[wispy crystal]

what about shuriken storm + bp?

[tepid trellis]

only outside of dance

[wild hornet]

[wispy crystal]

ok so just to be sure

During Dance with 4+ targets = Shadow strike + Black powder
Outside Dance with 4+ targets = Shuriken storm + Black powder

if less then 4 targets, i just change black powder to Evis right?

[tepid trellis]

yes

and you dont storm below 3 targets

outside of dance

[slate marlin]

does the auto decline rets addon still exist?

trying to find it

[turbid edge]

I mean... That rogue doing barely 3m on last boss flood with 712 ilvl. So lower ilvl and lower skill than someone doing 18s and your DPS will prob be 2.6m

[wispy crystal]

right so anything below 4 targets = Shadowstrike + Evis

this is the build im using for M+. this is correct ?

[turbid edge]

So sub damage profile is .... Big massive burst DPS on 1.5m CD and with regular dance/symbols you're doing prot warrior DPS, then back to big burst in another 1.5m? And you also make up a lot of overall on doing strong boss ST?

[tepid trellis]

on big pulls you can still sustain like 10-15 depending on procs

but it wont be 20+ like assa

this was casual on last boss floodgate

[ember thorn]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[feral knot]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[sage raft]

a little bit off topic, but can u guys tell me, where i can find the "how to sim" section ?

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure there is a guide to it on wowhead

[scarlet oyster]

hi, I don't understand why we must backtab first after a SD, can someone enlightens me pls ?

[turbid edge]

U get full combo points with premed and it stacks macabre charges

[tepid trellis]

to consume premed so its essentially a free full cp builder

that you then get a "free" danse macab stack from

[turbid edge]

Stealthi can I just do symbols dance backstab? Not much DPS loss than doing dance symbols backstab?

[scarlet oyster]

oh ok DM stacks comes from premed consumption

[tepid trellis]

no

comes from the backstab

[turbid edge]

Comes from casting a unique spell

[tepid trellis]

premed just makes it worth doing

DM is just for every unique spell used in a dance

[scarlet oyster]

alright I got it, but how if I already am in fight, it is my 2nd shadow dance, I don't have many premed stacked, do I still backstab first ?

[tepid trellis]

premed

is a buff

you get every time you enter stealth/dance

that makes the next builder, give full cps

[hollow spear]

Reading tooltips kinda op, ngl

[scarlet oyster]

oh ok my bad missmatched it with shadow techniques

ty

how many flagellation stacks do you get when the opener is correctly done ?

[tepid trellis]

30 always

you stack it up very very very fast

only need to spend 30 combo points for it to max out

[scarlet oyster]

alright, I got a bug where I had 44 once, is it known ?

[tepid trellis]

probs just a visual bug

caps out at 30 stacks and that gives you 73.5% mastery

[vagrant fulcrum]

yo, any DM optimisations remaining other than bs /w premed?

[tepid trellis]

not unless you count the storm between coups in blades

or with 6 or more targets

[vagrant fulcrum]

talk to me about 6+

comfortable with storming to avoid unseen waste

[tepid trellis]

its just the same optimization

just out of blades and on 6+ targets

[vagrant fulcrum]

say on st you open blades dance with 0cp and coup ready

is it shuriken > sec > shuriken > coup

?

[tepid trellis]

you dance backstab

[vagrant fulcrum]

backstab, not shuriken?

[tepid trellis]

nope

[vagrant fulcrum]

i guess it mainly matters after sectec

[tepid trellis]

shuriken is between the two coups

[vagrant fulcrum]

since it guarantees the unseen blades

[tepid trellis]

and yes

its after sectech it really matters

[vagrant fulcrum]

lets say i have coup and i KNOW i have unseen ready

e.g. been holding from last pack to optimise this blades

[tepid trellis]

then you cry

[vagrant fulcrum]

aight

[tepid trellis]

and take the L

[vagrant fulcrum]

slightly different scenario, I open with max cp sectec blades

and have coup

do I shuriken then

[vagrant fulcrum]

why is it not good then?

since it's still stopping unseen waste

[tepid trellis]

shuriken does 0 dmg

so pressing it twice

sucks

ass

[vagrant fulcrum]

🙁

got it

[tepid trellis]

like what you could do

if you pay attention to ShT stacks

if you know

sectech wont refund

but you KNOW

the first coup will

then send the storm

between sectech and coup1

[vagrant fulcrum]

but we are hard avoiding 2x storm

[tepid trellis]

yes

[vagrant fulcrum]

just 1 is max

[tepid trellis]

storm is a fcking awful button dmg wise

[vagrant fulcrum]

finally, is it ever worth throwing a storm in a tfd dance in cds

on mass aoe

like 15+

[tepid trellis]

storm between the coups

[vagrant fulcrum]

kekw

fair fair

[turbid edge]

What finisher is most commonly used after flag? If no rupture, then always that? What if rupture is up and flag comes up mid pull? Dance symbols backstab flag blades sectech if no combo points?

[tepid trellis]

[vagrant fulcrum]

ye the in between coups is fine

was just wondering if there was fucked up dm optimisation like we had in df

the 2t dances i remember were super cooked

[tepid trellis]

you will proc it in tfd (unless 0 escelating stack start and piss rng on like a boss in raid), so its very likely to happen

[tepid trellis]

if rupture wont last entire burst, then just rupture

if not you just go straight into dance+sectech

[bright oxide]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vagrant fulcrum]

assuming for w/e reason you only have 1 dance 1 symbols for blades

do we hold blades for 2nd symbols etc or send and pray we get back

[tepid trellis]

then you shouldnt have pressed flag+blades

you hold until you can do it

[vagrant fulcrum]

crystal clear

[tepid trellis]

and sit in the cuck chair and repent your actions

of stupidity

[vagrant fulcrum]

the amount of regret i've felt

[tepid trellis]

while you are drinking backstab soup

[vagrant fulcrum]

sending like an animal

[tepid trellis]

the others are pumping

[turbid edge]

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbh its getting better, still dont think i can beat my sin overalls yet

[tepid trellis]

in most dungeons you wont

[vagrant fulcrum]

id have to start doing giga unethical shit to win

[tepid trellis]

if you are good at assa

[vagrant fulcrum]

im deffo much better at sin than sub

[weak magnet]

assa is an overall specc

[vagrant fulcrum]

sub can be to if you refuse to send on st

and just play to cd all aoe

its just ur gonna brick ur key timer

and at that point you're giving up the one thing sub beats sin at which is bosses

[weak magnet]

well, ST Boss dmg is more important than most ppl think in m+

[vagrant fulcrum]

100%

[weak magnet]

I pug alot, and I hate Assa in PUGs so many tanks dont know how to play with an assa and then I dont have fun playing it. SUb is way more pugfriendly

[vagrant fulcrum]

issue is im fairly sure no stealth sin still wins overall

it just feels ASS to play

ct overtuned as shit

[turbid edge]

In logs I see sectech then line under is blades. Is that macroed together, or why is sectech cast before blades and not after?

[tepid trellis]

can cast both before and just after

sectech is a three hit attack

1 instant does a lil bit of dmg

[turbid edge]

But u don't want all attacks after blades?

[tepid trellis]

then two massive hits at 1sec and 1.3 after pressing it

[vagrant fulcrum]

that reminds me, if i sectec right at the end of a dance, and dance again before clones land - will they be buffed?

[tepid trellis]

which does most of it the dmg

[tepid trellis]

its neutral

[turbid edge]

Oh ok

[tepid trellis]

do whatever feels comfortable

[vagrant fulcrum]

finding this comes up with tfd

[tepid trellis]

yes

[hybrid compass]

Sub changes meaningful or nop?

[tepid trellis]

its all dynamic

what changes lol?

[hybrid compass]

Wait i think im autistic a bit

I Just woke up and saw petkos tiktok about class tuning

But it was 31 july

[wraith sphinx]

tell us your news, time traveler

[hybrid compass]

It was in fact a mistake.

[turbid edge]

Lily trinket + potion to flagellation or to blades, or doesn't matter?

[tepid trellis]

blades

[turbid edge]

And last question I had, is it a significant DPS gain to coldblood the 2nd sectech instead of first? Means having 2 diff sectech hotkeys

[tepid trellis]

yes

[vagrant fulcrum]

im guessing Cbing the first sectec is still better than dropping CB for tea right

[tepid trellis]

probably slightly worse

think tea is like 1%

and the cb usage is like 1.5%

last me and eleem talked about it

[vagrant fulcrum]

lowkey might make the switch

it's clicking slowly but cb is exactly the kind of thing i'm gonna grief playing it manually

[tepid trellis]

i just have a text reminder

when 2nd dance is about to start

to CB the sectech xD

[vagrant fulcrum]

my LR is just yapping every 2s to press cds xd

maybe if I had a boss to actually prog for more than like 30 pulls I could figure cd timings for myself

does dropping cb meaningfully change the value of crit

it has to

[weak magnet]

alot of ppl play DB over tea in M+ <ou gu<ys would recommend ? :I)

[turbid edge]

Oh so I should just take tea instead of cb while I'm still learning sub? Might make it less overwhelming to simplify things.

Can I symbols before dance/bs?

[weak magnet]

In AoE you can for sure.

[vagrant fulcrum]

ye, its optimal actually to symbols a few globals early

for sht stacks

before cds anyway

[tepid trellis]

the timing doesent really have to exact, apart from you supercharging your sectech

thats what really matters

[turbid edge]

Oh ok ty all!

[vagrant fulcrum]

if you're bad like me you can have a macro for cds to pop everything and dseperate binds

[untold sable]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[untold sable]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[untold sable]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[untold sable]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[open coral]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

Quick sim for it:

• Talent compare Tea vs. Cold Blood -> 0.8% diffrence on Dungen Slice | 1.1% Single Target
• Cold blood with first Secret instead of second -> 0.8% diffrence on Single Target | 0.4% in Dungeon Slice

[vagrant fulcrum]

am I understanding this correctly? tea = bad cb usage

[vale pine]

no?

[turbid edge]

Omg it's a 0.4% difference in dslice. Def not worth trying it

[vale pine]

well

tea is 0.8% ahead

not behind

[vagrant fulcrum]

if tea vs correct cb is 0.8% diff and incorrect cb is 0.8% behind correct cb

wouldn't that mean that incorrect cb = tea?

[vale pine]

no

[vagrant fulcrum]

or would this need a third sim

incorrect cb vs tea

[vale pine]

that would make it 1.6%

[vagrant fulcrum]

ah

[vale pine]

because tea is ahead

if tea was 0.8% behind

it would be equal to bad cb use

[vagrant fulcrum]

wait, im talking st here

[vale pine]

i can add single target

[vagrant fulcrum]

much appreciated fuu

[vale pine]

but keep in mind, talent setups will be relevant too

[glad rampart]

in sims d/slice tea sims higher for me

btw why do we open same opener in aoe and ST

aoe has to be slightly different if we wanna get benefit on FW spread

what if i open with shadowstrike prio target into rupture flag dance backstab evis vanish storm into symbols blades sectech than ive 2x big coupe with 7 stack of Dans M

isnt that more dam for aoe stuation?

[cursive vapor]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[glad rampart]

@vale pine any opinon? for my question

[hazy breach]

You dont want to storm in dance

Unless its for the coup thing

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[glad rampart]

im talking about aoe rotten spread

[hazy breach]

Yes

I know exactly what youre talking about

[glad rampart]

hmm ok than hows aoe opener looks like

with prio target with adds

and how do u save rotten stacks to spread FW

without using it in dance

if not using it in dance i dont see the point playing rotten in kes

[hazy breach]

If theres a prio target that you wanna eviscerate fw isnt relevant

[glad rampart]

lets say 8t no prio target

[hazy breach]

And for bps you would either get fw up while spreading some rupture before

Or you would get it during the storm for coup

mentioned above

[tepid trellis]

should we add the 6+ targets thing outside of blades to it that fuu found?

[hazy breach]

Its better at 4 targets too, i have it added in the thing ive posted, just so many things have come up that i havent pushed it yet

[tepid trellis]

fair

[glad rampart]

whats new

[hazy breach]

But ye we probably need like a thread or something explaining it

The command just confuses people it seems

[glad rampart]

i just dont understand whats the point playing rotten in keys if u not using storm for rotten stacks

[elfin talon]

Does Shadow Techniques stacks stay when we engage combat or the stacks dissapear?

[tepid trellis]

just a thread named "coup"

[tepid trellis]

resets on bosses

iirc

[hazy breach]

Resets on raid bosses

[tepid trellis]

ye

[elfin talon]

And in M+ starts ?

[hazy breach]

On key start yes

[elfin talon]

okay ty

[glad rampart]

so we never storm in dance anymore to spread rotten stacks in aoe

?

[tepid trellis]

yup

[glad rampart]

even for extra danse stack

[tepid trellis]

its gone

[hazy breach]

Ok so storm does 300k damage

[tepid trellis]

only time you storm is between your two coups

[hazy breach]

A shadowstrike (or backstab really) proccing your 2p unseen blades does similar damage to a full BP

[glad rampart]

than its better not to play rotten in keys right?

[vale pine]

the only thing that confuses people is blades condition

[wheat edge]

In my brain I also want to storm there in aoe but coup always seems to refund combo points when I wanna storm

[hazy breach]

Ive had like a dozen people ask me if they should do it when theyre at full cp too

[vale pine]

because the main missunderstanding is to always use storm between coups

oh well

i guess we could word it diffrent

to say "ONLY IF YOU NEED TO BUILD COMBO POINTS"

but the problem is

[glad rampart]

if u get procs do u sent back to back coups without using ss ?_

[autumn pawn]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

when you get a cp refund

you don't send storm

because well

[cursive vapor]

why would you ? xD

[vale pine]

you don't need to prevent tier set waste

idk

[runic harbor]

hello, does anyone know once im through my normal rotation. Do i need to have 2 uses of shadow dance and 3 SoD by the time flag and shadow blades comes back up?

[cursive vapor]

isnt that logic

[vale pine]

eleem did say he got this asked frequently

[upper narwhal]

using builders when you can use spenders is bad?

[vale pine]

seems like it isn't if people ask

[cursive vapor]

but I want more than all cp's!

[wheat edge]

The delay on coup probably adds to it

[vale pine]

like inherently

there is always one problem with any explenation you have

[glad rampart]

i still dont get what to do in aoe stuation tbh. i go in 2x ruptures out than dance backstab symbols sectech in to shadowstrike into bp all time not using a single storm unless i need it for between coupes do i get it right?

[vale pine]

it is never 100% exact for every given scenario if you don't understand dependencies

[cursive vapor]

amen

[vale pine]

it is why we have so many questions

"use finisher on 6+"

is not exact enough

and people ask

"what do i do if i get a cp refund"

because its a diffrent thing

[upper narwhal]

a lot of people saw the Gingi tweet and decided to try Sub

[vale pine]

and given how most people learn by learning sequences out "BY HARD"

its a repeating problem

e.g. for any opener sequence

people would love to make a cast sequence and not think

and if they are presented with one diffrence, its outside of the scope of the opener

e.g. if the opener states "secret-backstab-evis-strike"
the person who gets a refund after evis either has no idea what to do

or does strike with full combo points

or asks in discord why the opener sequence is not the same

[brisk raptor]

I saw someone else asking, I’m also curious. Why are people playing the rotten if we’re not using shuriken storm in AoE opener?

[vale pine]

because of comfort

[glad rampart]

me asked that

no point

playing rotten anymore

[vale pine]

rotten is comfort to gurantee find weakness if you use it for storm

[hazy breach]

Bro didnt even hit 60m

[vale pine]

which is what we did in previouse patches

but we have more stats now, means also higher crit chance

[glad rampart]

and if its bad why it sims higher xD

[vale pine]

and rotten isn't giving us that much of a benefit anymore

could be for your gear setup

[glad rampart]

im like 711 do u thnik this will change we rich 720

im kinda bis rn

[flint dagger]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DN-XmaGjdd1/?igsh=NTlwamx0YWZqZXY0

Can someone tell me what the happend here? What can procc?

gingi_tv

Sub and Assa rogue is popping off in season 3 currently! It’s a great time to be a rogue!

#mmorpg #worldofwarcraft #gamingreels #twitchclips #wowreels #wow #mythicplus #rwf

Likes

285

Instagram

[vale pine]

i mean, if it sims better

play it ^^

[glad rampart]

any setup

it sims higher

tried nearly every single talent combination

if i play it do i use storm to spread fw ?

[hazy breach]

He pressed his cooldowns with a 18 stack prism

Its the brewmaster talking about procs, not the rogue

[brisk raptor]

Ahh I see, so it’s really probably not better to be playing the rotten for most. I thought it made 0 sense when I was looking at it, couldn’t wrap my head around it

[glad rampart]

when you did your sims fuu with endgame gear did rotten lost the finality pw setup ? @vale pine

or was it close ?

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glad rampart]

this is your endgame sim i dunno if its updated. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jqozr2dVaaNJ4DBY8iy3zB for d/slice

its 8.2

im simming right now with 711 ilevel 8350

with rotten build

• tea

[void ocean]

kings, what kind of buff monk has that is beneficial to us

[glad rampart]

there is something im missing

[keen dome]

Touch, isn't it?

[hazy breach]

The thing you linked does not have rotten

[void ocean]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[glad rampart]

yes this is fuu's build

[keen dome]

I'm just going off memory, and my memory is bad

[primal flicker]

hello guys, its different the trick of trade on sub or assa?

[glad rampart]

i dont wanna link mine but i sim 8.350 right now with rotten with low ilevel

[primal flicker]

because im assa and send my trick macro to my rog friend sub but dont work on him

[void ocean]

yes

[hazy breach]

Ye thats with buffs

The one you linked is without any buffs

[primal flicker]

how work? he have to set the trick on tank right?

[void ocean]

ehhm mechanically they work the same

its just sub has to trick once cause of trickster hero talent tree, assa is deathstalker im guessing

so assa has to trick for every pull

[primal flicker]

and how he apply to tank the trick?

[void ocean]

and yes, u both trick the tank

target him

i have mouse over macro

[primal flicker]

because we try to focus tank but dont active the buff

[void ocean]

i just mouseover the frame

[primal flicker]

can u share the macro?

[hazy breach]

!tricks if it is this WA theres a bunch of troubleshooting on the wago page itself

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[inner garnet]

Is Araz trinket any good for m+ or does it not come near netherprism?

[crisp anvil]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[glad rampart]

this guy playing CB https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vkdLPDqnstrqArsUayAxVe and this guy playing TEA https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/epVrAKF6VVJe1nivf3Mnth compare to gear + ilevel isnt tea really close to cb?

[crisp anvil]

cold blood more damage than tea?

which one is easier to play

[glad rampart]

tea for sure

[slate lantern]

It's a slight win in aoe for tea, slight win in st for cb. Tea you literally don't think about just macro to shadow dance so thats easiest

[slate lantern]

Lashga

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1106224572811984956/1367129809951395871/9sftfb.gif

[glad rampart]

in fact one of them have mythic prism

[swift tinsel]

Do you think he’ll pay to sim higher than the Russian

[south sedge]

Does sectec snapshot your buffs on press or u can, for example, tea after the initial strike of sectec

[swift tinsel]

No snapshotting

It inherits buffs at the time each hit lands

[frigid canopy]

hey all! is there a sim APL we can use for double on use in raid? mostly for audit, or is it accurate as a normal sim (5 min patch) TIA

[glad rampart]

what if u play cb + tea same time and drop 1 deper xD

[short radish]

lets not and say we didnt

[tepid trellis]

just use latest on raidbots

it supports 2x on-use

[frigid canopy]

okay tyty

[vale pine]

diffrence of roughly 1%

comparing rotten to the top setup

which isn't that big tbh

[mystic ether]

I'm planing on playing sub and sin for raid & mythic+, what should I craft first?

[glad rampart]

ty @vale pine

[swift tinsel]

Dagger if you don’t have mythic one

[glad rampart]

weapon @mystic ether

[mystic ether]

Cool ty

any embellishments?

[vale pine]

a weapon if you don't have a mythic item level one for your mainhand

[swift tinsel]

Can do ascension with armor banding or double lens

[glad rampart]

does armor banding ilevel matters?

or its just W/e

[hazy breach]

Ilvl doesnt matter for embellishments

[glad rampart]

it does for lens

if u crafter higher ilevel

[hazy breach]

Ye by a little bit, but not a lot

All of the stat ones are static

[glad rampart]

yeye i asked for the ascension

it doesnt matter for that oe

one

[hazy breach]

Embellishments give the same amount of stats as they gave at the start of the expac

And they were weak on release compared to dragonflight ones, so now theyre insanely weak and incosequential

[mystic ether]

What embellishment do I get on my dagger?

[hazy breach]

Lens or ascendance

Whatever you fancy

[jaunty heath]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[iron plover]

What’s a high key level for m+ to strive for :o

[slate lantern]

Welcome back lashga @glad rampart we missed you king, what's this the 4th burner account?

[zenith oriole]

they had it so right, why is Black Powder a thing again? FFS

[slate lantern]

Everyone has a different idea of high key level

[iron plover]

What’s your idea of a high key

[keen dome]

What's your goals in the season? All rewards, just 2.5k, title?

[iron plover]

I need assistance in setting goals for myself

[keen dome]

'Cos 'high' is going to depend on those.

[iron plover]

uhhh I’m currently at 2900

[slate lantern]

I just fuck around in 14-15s with my premade, but the real pushers think those of low keys

[iron plover]

ooo gotcha gotcha

[keen dome]

It's very relative, yeah.

[iron plover]

Can you pug keys higher than 14s-15s?

[keen dome]

Weekly is a good baseline for 'low' i.e., 10's, but even those are high keys to someone.

[iron plover]

or do you probably need a group to push that high

I used to have a group to push with in SL but since coming back this season they’ve all quit

[brisk raptor]

Any tricks to getting the first dance back when tank chain pulling?

[iron plover]

[slate lantern]

People have pugged up to 19-20 last season but it gets exponentially harder

[iron plover]

ooo okay got it got it

[keen dome]

It'll be nice when we have houses in Midnight. Can just go get comfy on a sofa while waiting for a group

[iron plover]

Good to know there’s still pugging that high

thank you!

[keen dome]

A majority of your time will be sitting around waiting to get into groups, so networking and being known as a cool, chill, competent person is a huge bonus

Be the person people wanna play with

[slate lantern]

Just sit back and miss the first few seconds of combat I guess? I don't think it's something we try to do all that much

[iron plover]

Yea I still have a few contacts from my SL days, but all the new people I’ve added recently haven’t been able to keep up .-.

Also just want to say sub rogue feels so fun to play in m+ with 4 set

[keen dome]

It's so goood

Big baseline hope

[iron plover]

The adrenaline rush when the first coup resets into the second coup

But I saw a feral pull 50m dps the other day

when will we get that :[

[keen dome]

18 netherprism stacks, big enough pull, all other DPS dead.

[ebon fjord]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[ebon fjord]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[slate lantern]

This is the week I get it in vault I swear

I'm in pvp hell

[keen dome]

I believe

Netherprisms for all

And also a mythic one for me even though I'm 0/8M, I just deserve it.

[slate lantern]

Some dude tried to sell me the heroic sigil trinket for 150k this week

[iron plover]

Is netherprism a really big dps upgrade?

[slate lantern]

Yes

[keen dome]

Give it a sim. It's gigantic

[iron plover]

oof

[keen dome]

It's the most sub trinket of all time

[slate lantern]

Normal netherprism is better than any other trinket

[iron plover]

ahh I haven’t been simming gear at all this season to be honest haha

oopsies

[keen dome]

Good news is heroic fractiltus is a JOKE of a boss

Superduper easy to do

So getting a Hero Prism is just a matter of loot rng, rather than group rng.

[iron plover]

Ah well Fract is being a bitch and hasn’t dropped a single netherprism in any of the groups I’ve been in since MFO

[keen dome]

Haha, rip 🙁

It's how it goooooes

But ye it's huge 'cos we can play different stacks or save up.

weaker opener -> everything else is stronger

[iron plover]

I pray for Tuesday

[keen dome]

Pray for your Prism

I'm farming a Pacemaker even though I said I wouldn't, 'cos nothing else is an upgrade except antenna which won't drop

[remote eagle]

guys is there a convenient way to macro lily and prism in the same macro?

[iron plover]

It does better than Lily?

Or do you already have Lily

[keen dome]

I have lily but I don't want to use lily as my double on use

[iron plover]

gotcha gotcha

[near compass]

i got lily and netherprims, what 1 do i do with shadowblades? lily is mythtrack netherprism is normal

[hallow night]

how much better is thistle tea in keys over cold blood?

I think I heard it's like a 1% difference

[vale pine]

you start with lilly, then netherprism and after that alter between the 2

[stark pewter]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[slate lantern]

The general guideline is to start with the other on use so netherprism builds more stacks, but iirc people mainly were talking about forge and nether

[near compass]

thanx!

[vale pine]

if you want to min/max

need to be careful when the fight ends

[near compass]

true, but netherprism is alot more dps then the other trinket i got

[vale pine]

so you don't sit on 18 stacks of prism

[slate lantern]

Oh you never drop nether

[vale pine]

thats correct, roughly 1% in sims

[slate lantern]

It would be be forge>lily since you dont care about it being a 2min when using double on use

[stark pewter]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[stark pewter]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[tulip gorge]

https://x.com/Gingitv/status/1961729787912704463

Gingi (@Gingitv)

It’s a great season for rogues

X · Aug 30, 2025, 9:56 AM

we are getting nerfed

[keen dome]

Nah, we're getting buffed

100%, they're gonna buff evis damage

And they're adding a posion toggle. And also, uh. Gloomblade baseline?

[vale pine]

i don't think we get nerfed

its burst

and we sit on low dps after

if you remove the burst

you need to buff other parts of the toolkit

[keen dome]

I just stole aggro on big momma in a 6 key and the healer and tank were very confused

[hallow night]

They'll just make us into yellow warriors and back stab will become mortal strike

[cunning acorn]

question for mplus:
I have netherprism and lily. Do start first with using lily and only use netherprism in combination with shadowblades when it hits 15+ stacks?

[hallow night]

If using double on-use you should alternate them. Is lily actually simming above a 704 pacemaker for you?

[vale pine]

also inherently

subtlety is not the best on st

neither on aoe

assassiantion beats subtlety in aoe easy

[chrome palm]

the burst class does last season udk numbers

[hallow night]

Personally I wouldn't use double on-use unless I had prism and forge. I'd have to run sims though. Lily + prism was losing to prism + 704 pacemaker in my sims.

[vale pine]

burst has a fall off, and it means you normalize below what other competing specs have once you don't look at the 20 sec burst

it is just incredibly easy

[keen dome]

Ditto, it loses in mine too

[vale pine]

to make a screenshot after the burst phase

and say "this is op"

you can do the same in raid

subtlety never has the good burst at the start of an encounter

[errant ferry]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

so just do the following:

• Do fractilus with your guild.
• Use Bloodlust on pull
• Make a video for exactly the "insane burst" some classes do with that
• record and add some background music
• Record yourself "OH MA GOD, WHATS THIS DAMAGE"
• upload to twitter and reddit

[summer peak]

!st

Hey guys, I see people using Tornado now in keys? Is there anywhere that lets me know how to best play around it

[stark pewter]

make a screenshot at the end of the dungeon stating: "after my huge bursts"

sub rogue it's like a diesel engine torque diagram

[spice lichen]

Get 4 ruptures going outside of dance for cdr

[vale pine]

On single target: use it as a filler outside of cooldowns
With more targets: use it during symbols usually before going into cooldowns

[sullen oriole]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[next trellis]

is there a WA to track unseen blade cd

[vale pine]

OMG druid so op

nerf balance

what is this burst

[hazy breach]

LEs pack has one that attempts to, but the resets from "Thousand cuts" cannot be tracked as theyre hidden so its not fully accurate

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[sinful tree]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[timid forum]

Does wow analyzer work for sub?

[placid elk]

if i loot more haste gear im gonna crash out

[raw wadi]

Full stacked prism... Better nerf sub

[crystal bone]

OH MA GAWD

[vale pine]

i am just memeing btw. love the content ^^

[crystal bone]

ofc

[placid elk]

I want to see the whole fight, how much dps is at the end

[crystal bone]

[high eagle]

I am modifying my shadow techniques WA and want it to glow when ill get full refund, this should be glow at stacks >=7, correct?

[crystal bone]

sub is so insane on soulbinder man

41m dps on 2nd set of adds intermission

[lone linden]

with symbols of death buff too

[placid elk]

Stacks more than 7 and symbols of death aura found

[cunning acorn]

i have no peacemaker yet and i have 710 netherprism and 714 lily

[lone linden]

i just have a number at the end of my CP bar, that shows how many stacks of shadow techniques i have, it goes green when its going to refund, and goes orange when one of the coup hits is going to refund (so i know to wait for that delay refund), otherwise the number is white

[sullen hare]

Not really no

[timid forum]

oh, can I get some help with logs from here then?

[high eagle]

thats big brain. the delay from coup always gets me

[sullen hare]

Yeah !log is a command but it doesn't always get answered immediately

[timid forum]

!log

[timid forum]

didnt know about that command, thanks!

[high eagle]

what is the modification you made to track the coup refund?

[lone linden]

oh, i made the whole thing myself, its just some custom code, essentially tracks when you press coup, and checks your sht stacks at that point and aims to estimate if you'll get to 7 stacks during 1 of the 3 coup hits

tbh tho, most of the time i dont really need it, if i press coup at 5sht stacks im confident its going to refund sometime during the coup

[hallow night]

Do you guys track flawless form?

[vale pine]

yes

[mint violet]

do both of the weapons have to be daggers_

[vale pine]

just to know its up

[vale pine]

yes

[keen dome]

Yes

[vale pine]

you can use a dagger from the ah in offhand

and it will outperform whatever onehand oyu have

so just use 2x daggers

(offhand weapon slot is one of the weakest in the game, so it does not need to be a super good weapon)

[hallow night]

Oh finality isn't a stacking buff, it's every other finisher

[hazy breach]

Yep, which makes it kinda pointless to track

[karmic harbor]

!chainpull

[hallow night]

What stuff in here do you think isn't pointless to track?

[vale pine]

deeper dagger

[karmic harbor]

Snd

[vale pine]

find weakness

snd

alacrity

[hallow night]

I track weakness on nameplate

[vale pine]

finality

[hallow night]

but I'll look at those other ones

[hazy breach]

The opposite fuu, what is worth tracking

[vale pine]

mos

[hazy breach]

To which id say none

[vale pine]

oh, i missread

haha ye, its probably easier to say whats worth to rack

[hazy breach]

Or well, clear the witnesses ig, but youre not playing deathstalker anyway

Flawless form is fine, but tracking the stacks is kinda unnecessary, just knowing if its up or not is enough

[vale pine]

you essentially only rly want to:

• track when you can use coup de grace
• flawless form to know if you cleave with nimble

[hallow night]

I made a big weakaura that tracks shadow techniques and glows at 7+

One of the mistakes I've been running in to is when my techniques is at 3+ stacks in a burst window it's possible that I press coup 1 and it goes all the way to 7 before the global for coup 2 comes up

and I end up pressing a builder because I'm getting the refund basically at the exact time the global comes up

[hazy breach]

Ye hopefully they fix that bug

So you cant get refunds in the middle of coup

[vale pine]

+1

[hallow night]

It's also hard to feel out cause coup is a longer global as well

just something I gotta practice with for a long time and pay attention to if I'm at 5 stacks going into coup 1

[astral axle]

imagine how much mobility we'd have if coup still charged though

[short radish]

do not.

[vale pine]

XD

death from above

just give back the falling through floor

https://tenor.com/view/fall-roof-gif-10226964

[earnest harness]

Noobie here, 👉does one keep changing targets when applying rupture in trash packs, or is one supposed to just use it one one mob and eventually it will soread to the others every time you hit the same mob?

[vale pine]

^ legion when you used detah from above

[hallow night]

last time I played sub DFA was meta (HFC in WoD)

[vale pine]

you rupture targets if they survive longer outside of cooldowns

[hallow night]

the rotation hasn't changed much really

ambush to eat rupture duration

[vale pine]

DfA was meta mid legion

[velvet veldt]

evening guys, when i have like 6-7 cp ready do i go into shadow dance and evis or use evis and then go to shadow dance with low combo points? and do you always start shadow dance with backstab if possible? thanks

[hoary anvil]

DfA was fun, bugged as hell but fun

[vale pine]

think the current version is also a lot of fun

so i hope that future changes keep the fun parts if we get some in the next xpac

[hallow night]

You can start with a finisher, but youshould back stab as your first generator for premed

[hoary anvil]

ok so, say i forego the optimization of using storm during dance+SB in between coup procs

[earnest harness]

Not sure what you mean. I assume in your CD’s you’re in nuke mode which means you’ll kill everything too fast to be dealing with ruptures. Which means outside of CD’s is the only time you apply ruptures? If this is the case, my Q still stands, do I apply it on 1 mob, which will spread it automatically every new rupture, or do I switch target and manually target a new mob and apply rupture?

[hoary anvil]

(for now, i will eventually, but i need training wheels atm)

is there a situation that i would want to sstorm ever during dance+sb?

[lilac plume]

You change targets, do you apply 2 at a time instead of 2 then 1 every after. Make a mouse over Rupture macro.

[inner garnet]

I am super new to rogue and I have araz and Netherprism. How is the optimal usage of these? I assume in first SB I pop Araz but when do I pop NP?

[hazy breach]

You rotate them

[inner garnet]

Not sure understands that :(

[hazy breach]

Use forge first

then prism

then forge

then prism

etc

Every blades

[inner garnet]

Gotcha

[earnest harness]

Nice ok, makes sense

[burnt panther]

https://x.com/Gingitv/status/1961729787912704463 xdddddddd

Gingi (@Gingitv)

It’s a great season for rogues

X · Aug 30, 2025, 9:56 AM

[vale pine]

was already posted 2 tiems today

[cedar willow]

/use shadow blades
/use 13
/use 14

Put forge on first trinket slot, prism on second

Profit

[vale pine]

but "burst day does burst" <insert surprise pikachu face>

[sullen hare]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[misty marlin]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Also hes not even breaching 60M in that video smh my head

[astral axle]

Kush? More like Tush. HAH

[vagrant fulcrum]

they just won't show the meter over the 1 min after cds

[brisk raptor]

I sometimes find myself getting 5 combo points when I shadowstrike outside blades cd. Should I shadowstrike again and finish at 7 or I send at 5? Guide says 6 or more just feels like I would get in one less finisher if I play that way but maybe not?

[hollow spear]

Clearly fell off

[distant mist]

What do you guys do to hold onto CDs and not lose a ton of DPS later in a pack? Is there a middle ground to not lose so much DPS?

What I’m trying to say is, is there a CD or a combo of CDs I can use to be ready for the next pack of adds? Sorry about the question.

Should I keep at least one charge of Shadow Dance for the next pack of adds, right? I’m really struggling to figure out which CDs to hold and which to use, etc. I’ve checked every guide possible and still can’t get it.

[wheat elk]

1 charge, roughly 30 sec on the second charge and 2 sod charges

[stiff stirrup]

does shadowheart (2% leech while stealthed) work with dance?

[north schooner]

no

never take that

[distant mist]

Let's say the tank pulled a pack of adds that's small and easy, and I don't wanna use my CDs... In the way you explained, can I use Flag + Shadow Blades and try to save what you just mentioned for the next pack?

[wheat elk]

what i said to save is for your flag and sahdowblades

when they come up

assuming you already used them

[supple verge]

Is double on use only worth with forge/prism or is lily fine in place of forge? I'll sim later but curious what others are running

[distant mist]

Makes sense... but in that example pack with few adds and easy, what should I be using so I don’t lose too much DPS? ‘Cause if I don’t use anything, I’m gonna deal less damage than the healer, lol. Sorry, I’m really a newbie

1 sod and secret?

[north schooner]

you can use dance+symbols for packs you don't seem worthy of flag & blades

but this is something you don't want to overdo

[wheat elk]

its more like you have to calculate in the moment, like if you play enough you will understand that for example in a +14 eco if you do the first pull, your flag and sb will come up mid way through the second pack

[north schooner]

because then you lose uses of your big cds

[wheat elk]

then you know you can use 1 or 2 shadow dances and sobs and you will still have enough for when you start the boss

[distant mist]

I figured... but I should also have them ready for the next pack along with Flag + Blades, right?

Yeah, I gotta play more to build the muscle memory for what to use and what not to use.

[north schooner]

optimally yes but don't expect to have your CDs perfectly ready for each pack

[distant mist]

My mistake is probably this... wanting to go hard on every pack... I'm used to Assassination.

[wheat elk]

it depends, one time eveerybody has good dps, by your timer you might think that you will get your cds up in the next pack, but when your dps is good you might go into the next pack and still not have your cds up

[north schooner]

sub has highs and lows and you cannot avoid that

you just need to get a feel of how much you can flex your CDs and on which pack you want to send them, but generally you want to be sending flag&blades as soon as possible (without wasting them)

[distant mist]

Got it, thanks... That's exactly what I'm struggling with. I know my big damage comes from Flag + Shadow Blades, but I'm not sure how to handle what to use outside of that.

[zenith hollow]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[distant mist]

ngl thats not easy to play as sub

D:

[lucid jackal]

The spec inside and outside of blades is broadly speaking the same

It's just about stopping Cd's to setup for blades again

[distant mist]

yea

sub is about control cds

[pearl token]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

There's just not a lot going on with the spec, just doing Ur Cd's properly lol

[distant mist]

yea

[round grotto]

When do u stop dancing is it when flag is at 40 sec cd ?

[lucid jackal]

30

[wispy crystal]

Is signet of the priory any good for sub?

[keen dome]

It's a 2 minute trinket, so it doesn't line up with our cooldowns. So, not really.

[wispy crystal]

Thanks

I'm still a little confused when to use black powder

4+ targets ?

What if I have flawless form up

[hazy breach]

Sectech > Coup > BP at 4 or more > Evis
Is the finishing priority

Youll have flawless form up almost all the time, but it doesnt matter

BP does more at 4 targets

[wispy crystal]

Thank you, what about during shadow dance?

With 4+ targets do I BP ?

[hazy breach]

Theres no hidden condition im forgetting to tell you

its just 4+ targets

[wispy crystal]

Ah so far I've been using eviscerates on 4+ targets during shadow dance.

Okay that may not be the best idea I guess

I always thought black powder did like no damage

[iron plover]

it does good dam

[vale pine]

they buffed bp recently

[lucid jackal]

It got buffed a lot

[vale pine]

^

[iron plover]

It’s also jazz hands

[lucid jackal]

Also evis still has value, even if its "Less damage"

Like in arakara, those swarmguards are more important to kill first even if you pull 10 targets with it yk

[granite hinge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[wispy crystal]

Got it, so evis is still used for priority targets

Black powder for padding AOE? 🤣

[lucid jackal]

I mean its not pad if u pull 15 targets and none are important

[hazy breach]

Its not a huge difference either way, a large chunk of finishers are gonna be sectech or coup anyway, and those do very big priority damage

[formal thistle]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[gilded ferry]

Guys, im reaching a point that i become without dances for the symbols window, is that something that happens or am i playing wrong?

[lucid jackal]

yep its normal

[gilded ferry]

in this case, we hold stuff for dance it will sync back up eventually?

[wary plover]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[hazy breach]

You can send a symbols by itself as well, youll generally have more symbols than dances in ST while in aoe its the opposite

As long as you make sure you are always able to use 2 symbols, 2 dances and 2 secret techniques every blades window its fine

[gilded ferry]

oh, so thats not happening

i need to check what im doing then

[formal thistle]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[halcyon pendant]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[steel zinc]

Stealth buff or the ones like weeks ago?

[wild fog]

is dslice good for sub?

[hazy breach]

No stealth buff, he probably just meant that pretty much every patch theyve buffed BP

[vagrant thorn]

if I have 18 prism stacks pre pull can I just send it 1 sec pre pull? 😛

raid

[haughty mural]

We can’t escape the funnel allegations
Heard it again storm is funnel because we generate full to funnel eviscerates in the targets

[astral axle]

back to S2 shadowlands

[swift tinsel]

It’s like the babiest funnel lol

[hazy breach]

Ye you generate more CP but it does 300k damage instead of strike+unseen blade which do like 3m

[vague schooner]

when do i use netherprism?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[haughty mural]

Exactly

„But you storm outside of dance“

[hazy breach]

Sub funnel is like 5% across a long fight, since its pretty much just cdr outside of dance

[astral axle]

i think people are getting fried on the profile marketing lingo

[pearl token]

are we spamming dance and symbol of death and just wait for them just before 1,5min cds are up ?

[hazy breach]

Whereas bleed assa gets like 90% from funnel

[astral axle]

ppl in prot warrior discord are calling execute cleaving "reverse funnel"

[silent maple]

!belt

[hazy breach]

Sub used to have funnel so people just assume we still do

But nah

[hazy breach]

You always use 2 of symbols, dance and secret technique every blades

[sullen hare]

you'll be keeping it for a little while and replacing with a well itemized myth track one eventually

[devout jackal]

SUBBERDOWN

[hazy breach]

Thats the entire thing sub is about

[silent maple]

i got a 707 crit mast belt week 1

[sullen hare]

oh very cute

[silent maple]

im just not sure if it's worth sending crests on

[sullen hare]

what else are you spending 'em on?

[silent maple]

sitting on 90 rn

[sullen hare]

I have a bunch earmarked for crafting next week

[silent maple]

sent on trinkets and 2x720 crafts

[hazy breach]

Sim

[sullen hare]

is a good option like eleem said

[pearl token]

i never use them outside 1,5 timing ?????

[sullen hare]

especially since you can use the little [+] next to items in the sim to test them with upgrades and gems/embellishments/enchants

[swift tinsel]

The trick is to run so many sims you get option paralysis

[pearl token]

outside of cds do i have to rupture every target ? or only main one

[wintry seal]

I rupture only elite target, other get os too fast.

[haughty mural]

If targets live Atleast 11 sec

Rup them

[silent maple]

hows dslice for sub these days?

[pearl token]

ok and no dance except with blades ?

[swift tinsel]

Solid

[swift tinsel]

Still dance between blades

[mossy karma]

Always dance with symbols?

[pearl token]

im new to sub sry if my questions are stupids

[swift tinsel]

Cdr is variable in keys, but often enough to still ensure 2x dance/symbols/Sectech in blades

[pearl token]

i just spamm

and wait when blades are soon up

[swift tinsel]

Most of the time, sometimes you can’t dance so it’s just symbols and sectech

[mossy karma]

Tnx

[devout jackal]

when do most people switch from old 4pc to new 2pc?

[swift tinsel]

Asap

New 2pc is better than old 4pc

[devout jackal]

ok, im just thinking if i should hold out for m+ hero track gear or just catalyst my delve champion gear

sounds good

[pearl token]

in aoe guide say "Use Shuriken Storm on 3 or more targets with Flawless Form up."

i dont get it, without Flawless form i spam backstab ?n

[swift tinsel]

You pretty much ignore flawless form outside dance in aoe

It’s easier to just ‘worry’ about it in dance when it’s up the whole time

[pearl token]

so i just spam shuriken and dont care about backstab at 3 target+

[swift tinsel]

Since you cycle in and out of dance more in aoe bc of increased cp gen/consumption flawless form uptime takes care of itself

Outside you storm and maintain ruptures

[cursive vapor]

outside of dance yes

[swift tinsel]

Then BP when ruptures are good

[formal thistle]

is the bs macro still working?

[pearl token]

and do i have to rupture all ppl ? or just 5 like assa ?

[swift tinsel]

As many as will live ~10+ seconds

I usually just do lieutenant/bigger mobs

Or the ones that jump all over bc uptime on them is annoying

I use Jundies plater and any special colored nameplates get rupture

[vale pine]

the one weeks ago

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[manic salmon]

bfa season 1 sub rogue

😭

[lofty lance]

its so bad to tornado while on blades

all this nimble dam wasted

[slate lantern]

Did you mean in between blades?

[tiny mauve]

I'm seeing a lot of rogues run weaponmaster instead of first dance on forgeweaver, anyone know the reasoning for this?

[slate lantern]

Sheeple who haven't woken up

[lofty lance]

cuz u dance at start without cds

[steel jolt]

🐑 👀

[lofty lance]

so u dont need first dance

[swift tinsel]

Nah in blades, between you can fit way more than 2x dance/sectech unless your tank is baby pulling

[empty plume]

I've read that weaponmaster and TFD compete around 6min fight duration

if you don't flag/blades for the first dance of a fight due to fight timings I could see weaponmaster

[wide maple]

Anyone good with Weakauras? this keeps apprearing the first time i load in, when i open the WA pack with my rogue stuff it then dissapears and doesnt reappear

[serene notch]

Shows how freaking awful weapon master is

They need to rework that shit

[swift tinsel]

Looks like something with premed

[summer crest]

Could anyone please explain to me why Perforated Veins and/or The Rotten are any good? I must be missing what combo builder is worth using for damage

[swift tinsel]

Unless it’s a custom icon

[marble comet]

i only use symbol with SD right? can i makro together or are there situation were i need it split

[swift tinsel]

PV is only taken bc of pathing

[wide maple]

Yeah but i looked into everything cant find a single premed one

[swift tinsel]

Weird

[pearl token]

when do we use shuriken tornado ?

[summer crest]

Why a point in The Rotten when it could be in Finality?

[swift tinsel]

People like rotten for fw spread

[serene notch]

Outside of CDs

[swift tinsel]

Finality acts oddly with coup

[summer crest]

Ahh find weakness roger

[serene notch]

Having a guarantee spread of FW on all targets is nice on an opening burst

[swift tinsel]

Though you’re only really storming between coups when you’d be sod’ing

[serene notch]

If you have a WA you will notice it

[summer crest]

I just realised it would work on shuriken storm for FW spread. I was thinking it was backstab/shadowstrike for dps

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that was the typical use case before current tier set

[summer crest]

Thanks guys

[swift tinsel]

You only want to cast it once in dance and having it be between coups is the ideal way

[summer crest]

If finality worked properly with coup that would be better id think

[swift tinsel]

Finality is a bit problematic for all finishers it affects

Or has some kind of bug with each of them

Imagine that

[haughty mural]

[summer crest]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[inner garnet]

So I will always only use trinkets paired with Shadow Blade, right?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

They usually have a duration that matches blades or is a second shorter

[spice vector]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[brisk raptor]

I sometimes find myself getting 5 combo points when I shadowstrike outside blades cd. Should I shadowstrike again and finish at 7 or I send at 5? Guide says 6 or more just feels like I would get in one less finisher if I play that way but maybe not?

[cedar willow]

Yea it uses 13 first and puts 14(prism) on cd for 20 on first press. Second press 13 (forge) will be on cd and it will use prism

[swift tinsel]

It sucks but striking again to get to 6+ is the play

[wide maple]

found it, there was a hidden aura hidden within another group

i might have moved it

[swift tinsel]

Ah classic

[brisk raptor]

Do those extra combo points get saved somehow or they’re just gone?

[real hare]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[brave siren]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[wide maple]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker