subtlety

[alpine wraith]

yea same im in trinket jail i have a lfr prism

[hybrid thorn]

lucked out with normal prism

[lucid jackal]

Dogshit neck, dogshit neck, bad shoulders, gloves, and then dogshit bracers

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

This fuck ass game

[coarse agate]

Nerf to Astral Antenna not enough kick it out of BiS?

[fallen mortar]

Did someone make a sheet showing which raid abilities feint works on?

[alpine wraith]

antenna was never bis for us

maybe for assa

rn best passive migt be cosmic hunter

[coarse agate]

#2 in guide

[vale pine]

antenna is the best passive option

[coarse agate]

Kk

[vale pine]

will remain it

[coarse agate]

Thanks fuu, and thanks for the hard work!!!

[vale pine]

its not very practical on dimensius

[plush roost]

Astral antenna? Hardly knowa

[vale pine]

also

[alpine wraith]

yea antenna is weird because you can do funny things with it

[vale pine]

we don't have the nerfs yet

[alpine wraith]

they missed the merge AGAIN

XD

[swift tinsel]

lmao

yep

[plush roost]

3 orb antenna into cds = gg i have 2 actives

[swift tinsel]

soleah still 30mins

[shadow lance]

You drunk?

[swift tinsel]

its unironically good

[surreal crypt]

hey after looking at logs i see that people are not pressing anything for sometimes 20secs at a time and i know that there is an optimization that u can do which is to not press finishers 10secs before your cds , can someone explain that to me if possible ? ty

[alpine wraith]

it can be better in many situations

[plush roost]

Cosmic has to be bugged man

[alpine wraith]

and depends on gear too

[swift tinsel]

ye very slept on trinket

[fallen mortar]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[fallen mortar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

That shit does like 20-30m on fractillus on my dh

[shadow lance]

If you got coup up

[swift tinsel]

and with decent crit on gear antenna loses value

[alpine wraith]

if fight has executes it goes nuclear

[swift tinsel]

yeah was doing quite good damage on ptr

[vale pine]

you can hold coup for ~20 sec for flagellation/blades, but you would not "do nothing"

[swift tinsel]

and saw no nerfs

[alpine wraith]

also dimensius trink is lowkey good now too

[vale pine]

huh?

[plush roost]

Bro its so ovwr sub is dead gg nerfed

[alpine wraith]

classic mop

[swift tinsel]

dang they really messed up the merge

[plush roost]

Hehe

[swift tinsel]

sent us back to Pandaria

[alpine wraith]

people will have lots of fun in last raid of pandaria

sub was a beast

[graceful rock]

12 year roll back

[stone patrol]

the should start fix the current classes

[vale pine]

poor panda players

[shadow lance]

So having a bad trinket for 70% of fight is better than having a good one for 100% ?

It's barely an upgrade for me tbh, maybe I'm too low in crit

[surreal crypt]

i see tnx

[twilit phoenix]

holy shit hahahaha

[swift tinsel]

except it isn't bad

[violet palm]

Hi. Can I trust sims on Sack of terror? It shows me different performance every day almost

[frank crescent]

From the wowhead guide. Sitting here hitting target dummies and with this priority list I don't see how BP is ever going to be used (outside of dance) because you're always going to be using BS to build combo points and proc FF?

[ornate heron]

what is sanguinary veins? i dont even see that

is that a mop ability? LOL

[surreal crypt]

are there other situations that u save coup other than ~20secs before flag/blades?

[vale pine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[surreal crypt]

tnx

[lucid jackal]

This game just makes me sad

[vale pine]

you basically always use black powder

[swift tinsel]

0.2% difference for me between sigil and antenna

hardly 70% bad

[vale pine]

ofc you need enough targets

[frank crescent]

The guide is wrong? It seems to suggest you keep FF up perma and don't use BP during it? Am I reading it wrong?

[vale pine]

but you will:

• spread rupture
• use bp

[twilit phoenix]

i think you'll have giga rng in a few weeks like last tier

[vale pine]

with 3+ targets or if ff is not up

[limpid sage]

FF is up for 12 seconds after proccing Unseen Blade

[frank crescent]

Oh. My bad. Literally just wasn't reading the "or" ><

[vale pine]

i could simplify it to just say 3 tagrets, optimizing around ff is in general very low prio

[frank crescent]

No it's worded fine was mb

[ornate heron]

what is ff?

[frank crescent]

Flawless Form

[vale pine]

flawless form

[ornate heron]

ah

[vale pine]

basically, makes your evis cleave

[lucid jackal]

Bro its literally every tier

I am literally just hard fucked on gear

We never drop any trinkets

I'm using normal prism

Wont get even a heroic one until week 15

[shadow lance]

I'm sure if fight is above 50% all long, it's worse than every others

[twilit phoenix]

are you guys extending lockouts?

[hazy breach]

Same brother, same

[lucid jackal]

I don't think so

we've had 0 forge drops in 3 splits on heroic and normal either week

0 antenna

Just kill me with hammers

[twilit phoenix]

[vale pine]

welcome to the club

[shut ridge]

normal prism gang

mythic one dropped last night and went to our ww

[lucid jackal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xvQqxWch2jGAwVjub3HnSg mythic raider gear btw

[clever delta]

where rogue buffs

[terse wolf]

how do you spread rupture

[patent lichen]

Tab target

[alpine wraith]

be glad you have nm prism i have lfr

[twilit phoenix]

jastor diamond still putting in work 🔥

[alpine wraith]

it is very good

[shadow lance]

Mouseover

And I press shift + 2

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[shadow lance]

HC Prism but still Jastor

[terse wolf]

then whats this

[iron plover]

optional

[shadow lance]

A screenshot?

I mean, do a correct question if you want answers

[vale pine]

how much you spread rupture will depend on the pull

[shadow lance]

When do we put ruptures? When tank gather pack

[terse wolf]

mate im new on sub, i thought theres some kind mechanic on SS + Rupture that would spread it thats why i asked that question

[shadow lance]

Yes, press storm to build BP, press rupture to apply it

Repeat

It's not Assa there

[terse wolf]

okay so reapeatedly , got it

[shadow lance]

We don't have IC

[twilit phoenix]

lorenz we can't let our emotions get the best of us

[warm marlin]

bro on the poverty life

[shadow lance]

???

[vale pine]

yes

[swift tinsel]

bout to secure me an lfr prism

[vale pine]

while the tnk gathers

[swift tinsel]

[vale pine]

as well as between cooldowns

[shadow lance]

We got a talent that apply ruptures by 2 btw. You apply it on target that will live 12 sec +

[terse wolf]

for example something like floods first pull, we keep doing it until the pack is gathered, or would we continue spreading rupture for more dps before starting the main big hits?

[shadow lance]

No, don't delay cd

Just apply while gathering

[analog dove]

hey, new to sub, still learning, wondering why we take shiv and when to use it?

[terse wolf]

so its a small bonus and not mandatory, got it

[shadow lance]

Big cd, apply after if there's still target without

[terse wolf]

delay bp?

[shadow lance]

Rupture deals more than bp upside of cd

[iron plover]

Don’t use it unless there’s a dangerous enrage effect

[shadow lance]

Disenrage target

[analog dove]

gotcha ok thanks

[iron plover]

Something like HoA houndmaster enrage probably

if ur tank is cheeks

[signal comet]

Quick question , after CD's , you get to use 1 ST with dance and symbols , and then you are out of dance charges , about that time I get my flag/sb 30 ish seconds and have 1 dance up with symbols , if I use them on my cds I won't have enough dances available. What's the optimal use of cds in this case ?

[terse wolf]

gotcha

[shadow lance]

Nha i know, I was replying his question

[gleaming leaf]

what should i look for in my m+ logs to improve ?

[shadow lance]

Thanks Fuu but I know the spec a bit

[lavish rose]

wtf is this real

the hero rare boots are better than myth gloves maxed?

[shadow lance]

Ofc

[lavish rose]

holy based

[terse wolf]

so much more procs

[lavish rose]

will it be better for assa too prob?

should i yoink?

[shadow lance]

Go for it

[terse wolf]

sim to be sure, youre already in the website

[lavish rose]

ya imma sim as well

crazy though

[lucid jackal]

my tier is over

[lavish rose]

cause theres also sac brood in here

[shadow lance]

As you wish but I would 100% take boots if I needed it

[signal comet]

So any answer for my previous question :)?

[shadow lance]

Especially if I don't raid in a guild

[lavish rose]

ya i dont anymore lol

just doing my due diligence

[terse wolf]

not sure but i think you should read the condition thing in the wowhead guide, tells you how many seconds before what cd to hold stuff

[swift tinsel]

if if means you won't have 2x symbols/dance/sectech for your next flag, don't use them

[dusk stone]

yooo lets go myth legs with leech

[hazy breach]

Theres always next week

(unless youre extending ig)

[lavish rose]

assa sim taking longer

[hazy breach]

Assa has one million small hits

So calculating it takes longer for the sim

[lavish rose]

yea but its also testing more combos in high precision i think

hodl

[swift tinsel]

sim speed matches gameplay speed

[limpid gull]

for m+ when am i pressing blackpowder vs just using nimble flurry

[hazy breach]

4 or more targets BP

(always use coup asap)

[hollow spear]

The robot says hotfixes aren't in yet, but my antenna sim went down the drain

Am I cooked?

[dusk stone]

3 or more targets with find weakness, 4 or more targets without for BP

[limpid gull]

is it worth saving coup if the back is like 15% hp or less?

[hazy breach]

Sometimes yeah

[wicked urchin]

anyone else get totally baited by the mists sub rogue nerfs?

read the headline half asleep

[lavish rose]

saved 🙏

[shrewd lantern]

Pretty sure the only time boots arent worth is if you have lfr maybe

where the effect is only 20%

[fringe geyser]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shrewd lantern]

and ilvl is capped at 691

[plush roost]

My guildies rat rogues vaukt

Ima jump

[lavish rose]

lmao

[dusk stone]

war crime tbh

[astral axle]

the world is chaos and bullshit

[lavish rose]

my rat feral got house of cards week one last tier

never did anything with it

[jagged rover]

my rat feral got 2 lfr tier pieces, nothing of value in the hero slots. Going to do lfr and normal and then see if I can get 4pc on it lol

[dusk stone]

hoc was mid for us compared to prism tbh

i remember looking at that trinket and it was like 75k

[clever holly]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[covert meteor]

quick question, can I add Sectec into the blades macro?

[lapis mantle]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[jagged rover]

for comparison, heroic boots are a bigger upgrade than everything else except for mythic prism and mythic boots for me

[dusk stone]

at least it wasnt 250k ring upgrade

[lavish rose]

holy based

[dusk stone]

probably not the best to do so but i think so? what is in your blades macro

[lavish rose]

isnt it a tiny optimization to hit your sec tech first cause its on gcd

gives u an extra .5 secs of blades or whatever

[dusk stone]

there's a delay with wow macros?

[covert meteor]

just trinket and tea

[hazy breach]

No, the initial hit of sectech does ok damage

[lavish rose]

i mean the macro would hit the sb while ur on gcd i assumed

[cloud igloo]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[covert meteor]

oh, sb is on the gcd?

[hazy breach]

Previously sectech didnt work with blades (before undermine)

[dusk stone]

you need to CB sectec too

[covert meteor]

didn't check

[lavish rose]

sb isnt but sec tech is

[dusk stone]

and you hit sectec 2-3 times in cds and sometimes outside too

[wide maple]

Would you guys take hero prism in vault over mythic tier piece?

[lavish rose]

yea idk i did it that but im pretty sure i was watching exile do otherwise

[dusk stone]

sim

[covert meteor]

using the m+ build with tea

[lavish rose]

slightly delaying the sb

[dusk stone]

same thing is still true, just slightly less true than raid

[hazy breach]

Ye because but its neutral

[dusk stone]

cb sectec is one of the big things we do

[hazy breach]

And hes doing it because muscle memory

[lavish rose]

i feel like last tier it wouldve felt better

because you needed to be tighter

[dusk stone]

exile got 60mil+ sectecs on purple drank man

[lavish rose]

with double coup its kinda whatever

[hazy breach]

And no point changing if theres no difference

[lavish rose]

if u get no coup procs it might matter xdd

[hazy breach]

What

[dusk stone]

also is the 2p somewhat bugged?

i was in halls last night and i just wasnt getting many coup procs

[lavish rose]

if ur in ur cds and get 0 coup procs you have like only one global of error before you cant hit your cb sec tech with trinket and racial running

slightly delaying ur macro might give u more wiggle room

[hazy breach]

Theres way more wiggle room than that

[wide maple]

yeah but whats better long term regardless of sim

[compact iron]

whats better for m+ tea or cold blood?

[hazy breach]

either works

People usually find tea more comfortable

[keen ether]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[solemn lance]

So should we hit blades before secrecy or can we hit immediately after? I thought it was irrelevant

Sech tech. Not secrecy lol

[swift tinsel]

before, with, after

either fine

[hazy breach]

Either before or half a second later

Not like 0.01s later

Thats just bad

[lavish rose]

ok but objectively its an extra free global

[hazy breach]

No

Its not

[lavish rose]

if its neutral its still a slight advantage

how

[hazy breach]

Sectech does damage

The initial hit of sectech does fine damage

So youre losing out on buffing t hat

To buff something else later

Which is gonna do roughly the same amount of damage

[lavish rose]

id rather ensure my cb + sec tech is perfect than buff the initial hit

[dusk stone]

am i wrong in thinking its fine to have a cb sectec macro as long as its also seperately bound as well?

[hazy breach]

But like

Its not even remotely close

The cb sectech happens 11 or 12 seconds later

Not 16

[solemn lance]

Ill just shift it to before. I have it programmed into my hand to hit it immediately after and its likely less then .5 seconds later

[hazy breach]

It is fine ye

[sturdy moat]

How do I sim where my crests would be best spent ?

[hazy breach]

Edit this bit in topgear to say however many crests you have

And then use the "+"es on your items to upgrade them

It wont use up more than you can use

[sturdy moat]

Ah thank you

[signal comet]

W8 I just simmed , so prism lfr is worse than harvester edict ? Hero ?

[left ledge]

Wait wait wait

What am I missing here

Sectec works with blades???

[hazy breach]

Since undermine ye

[left ledge]

WHAT

I never knew that

[sturdy moat]

"attacks do 20% additional damage as shadow"

everything

[hazy breach]

You'd think so

[left ledge]

Early undermine?

Or some time during

[hazy breach]

At release ye

[left ledge]

Holy fk

I’ve been under the impression it still didn’t work

[wide maple]

any thoughts? i have hero chest and normal head piece. Is it prism 100% over mythic tier?

[warm marlin]

prism is kind of hard required

[wheat sentinel]

prism seems like an easy grab

[wide maple]

already did hero didnt get it =/

[lyric lily]

THE PRISM!

He is largeee

[lilac stag]

That’s a no brainer

[signal comet]

Is lfr prism a good trinket over harvester edict hero?

[lilac stag]

Sim

[signal comet]

Did sim its worse 😂 by 3.1%

[dense slate]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[tawny thunder]

is macroing lily to blades the move?

[crystal bone]

yes

[bleak night]

the only thing that even remotely looked worth considering in my vault was myth track lily

and it loses to champ track prism

or rather is tied with it in sims

loses to heroic

[honest basin]

I got myth pants

[warm marlin]

gotta think about the value late tier tho

[sonic turret]

Is this what the stacks supposed to look like ?

[warm marlin]

maybe forge will be better

prism is bad when bosses die omega fast

[bleak night]

my guild will be hitting enrage all the way until turbo boost

[warm marlin]

[mental kettle]

did a 12 dawn on this spec, was quite fun have to say. Not too difficult. Still need to get used to CD management though especially on bosses with phase timings

[crystal bone]

sub is the chad spec

[mental kettle]

i can definitelly feel like

a huge ST uplift

over assa

[prime glen]

Lily really loses to hero prism?!

[honest basin]

Funny numbers

[prime glen]

Myth*

Lily

[bleak night]

it does on my sim yes

[mental kettle]

Flood or?

[prime glen]

Damn

[mental kettle]

giga pumper

[bleak night]

i could double on use it up though

[prime glen]

This emoji cracks me up

[honest basin]

Ye, twas a flood

[steel jolt]

[bleak night]

[prime glen]

Lmao

[neon frigate]

I have a really stupid question. In the dungeon streets of wonder the first boss can disarm my weapon. I am totally lost when this happens and cant find my weapon. Any tips?

[honest basin]

I've been thinking bout doing that but I'm so lazy

[odd cedar]

why does it say Spell Not Learned when I try to use my SecTech Cold Blood macro but I can manually click on the Cold Blood not in a macro and it works?

[mental kettle]

its a circle on floor

but its not teh spinning blade circle

its smaller

and yellowish

[honest basin]

Relog, known bug when swapping from fatebound sin to sub

Just have to relog to clear it

[odd cedar]

ah okay thanks thats exactly what's happening

[left ledge]

I think a max normal prism outdoes every trinket

[honest basin]

Prism borked

[lethal yew]

If the boss takes your weapon you can use cloak and get it back. You can also use cloak if you get targeted by imprisoned

[left ledge]

It is basically transmitter

But better

[mental kettle]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[left ledge]

Unlike what hoc was

[mental kettle]

does prepull work on key start?

i mean symbols

[honest basin]

Yeah

Hit it before they slam key in

Or as soon as you zone into the dungeon tbh

[void needle]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[wheat sentinel]

do you have a prism

wondering what to expect as a pleb without one

[honest basin]

Yeah I do

[bleak night]

Expect gaming

[mental kettle]

does our St rotation chagne at all between the ST and AOE build?

[honest basin]

That particular character was only 702

[mental kettle]

I might be dumb but dont see any diff on wowhead

[honest basin]

Trinket or no trinket if you press button good you'll do giga dam

Trust

[wheat sentinel]

good to know.

Now I need a second dagger lol

[honest basin]

Real

One of my rogues got fucking juiced and is like 709 I'm sub gear 707 in sin gear, other one is a pleb with a 710 dagger sitting 703 sub 704 sin

[wheat sentinel]

Isn't sin like unplayably broken r/n

[honest basin]

The duality of m+ drops

[mental kettle]

u have rogue alts?

kekw

[honest basin]

Definitely not unplayable

[honest basin]

I have 6

[mental kettle]

ehm

[honest basin]

I only play 2 rn

[mental kettle]

idk maybe ur high end raider tbh idk

[west tide]

guys

what do i pick... i want that prism..

[honest basin]

B r o t h e r

[mental kettle]

if not high end raider

bro is cooked

[west tide]

bro the prism...

[mental kettle]

take the delve shoulders

trust

[high eagle]

Lmao @honest basin that PFP is 10/10.

[honest basin]

I raid in 2 CE guilds rn, but rogue is just my fav class, so when I think about gearing alts it usually just ends up being another rogue

[wheat sentinel]

p r i s m

[mental kettle]

bro needs to be studied

[honest basin]

There's someone else in here with it

I think there's like 3 of us, it's pretty peak

[neon frigate]

@lethal yew thank you

[mental kettle]

hoesntly the best class to alt from rogue

is a boomkin

2000% chill

2 buttons

never in frontals

always invited

[honest basin]

I despise casters

[jagged rover]

you definitely hold vault to run heroic and try to get prism from drops

[mental kettle]

boomie is like 90% starfall

[west tide]

i took the antenna

[mental kettle]

i ahte casters too

[honest basin]

I p much exclusively play rogue, warrior, ret pally, frost dk, and havoc dh

[lethal yew]

Ideally you save cloak for imprisonment. But if you are bursting cds and he takes your weapon you can use cloak to get your weapon back without running to it

[violet palm]

What's your HoA avg DPS should be?

[mental kettle]

do you have to pre-cloak imprison

[tepid trellis]

yes

[honest basin]

Yes

[mental kettle]

do you guys have a target WA for it

or in general for this season

[violet palm]

We overtimed with this in 15

[neon frigate]

@lethal yew where can i find tips like this?

[honest basin]

Think my player profile just shows targets of casta

Casts

Plater**

[honest basin]

You looking for targets of casts on castbar or a warning of like x ability on you

[mental kettle]

eh im gonna make a WA

[orchid rampart]

so in AoE 5-8 in your shadow dance window are you Sec tech into alot of evis or sec tech into black powder?

[lethal yew]

I just try to cloak/evasion/vanish every ability I come across. You get some weird interactions.
Like you'd think you can evasion the soak in mailroom since it's physical damage. It does not work lol

[honest basin]

Meanwhile you can evasion whirling annihilation

[tropic aspen]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[west tide]

i changed all my gear to sub enchants is it good in m+ or should i swap to sin ..

[honest basin]

Evasion is a goofy CD that works on a weird number of things it shouldn't and doesn't work on a weird number of things it feels like it should lol

[honest basin]

They're both fantastic in m+, sin is currently bug-ridden but it matters a lot less if you just play the bleed build.

[peak jetty]

Is there some data base on what it works?

[honest basin]

We used to have a sheet floating around with like stuff that feint/evasion/cloak worked on in current season but I don't think it's been around since like amirdrassil

[fast mantle]

i am trailing my assassination target dummy aoe dps by about 2,5M (same gear). Is there a bunch of stuff newbies often get wrong or something? I've read wowhead, icy-veins and method guides to death

[hazy breach]

The dummies are in permanent execute

Which obviously makes assa way better in that test

[fast mantle]

ah, throught the sudden death thing didn't work on them

[honest basin]

Proper opener sequencing, ensuring you're getting 8 casts off during every shadow dance, using trinket with blades, making sure you have access to 1.5 dances and 2 symbols with every set of flag/blades

[void needle]

Anyone else struggling with lily desycing from cd's? Now that I have 4 set, the cdr causes me to blades before trinket is ready. Should I hold blades for lily cd, or use lily most of the way through my first dance in blades?

[lethal yew]

This list works for Feint. Not evasion
https://gerritalex.de/blog/tww-s3-zephyr

[peak jetty]

That would be freaking helpful. 🙂

[hazy breach]

Im not talking about sudden demise

Zoldyck is what im talking about

[honest basin]

Sudden death doesn't but zoldyck recipe does

[hazy breach]

(but also yes sudden demise sometimes triggers on dummies)

[fast mantle]

only thing i'm wobbly on is keeping good timing for saving dance and symbols consistently 🙂

[lone mural]

is there a channel here for WA questions? still a newbie and I can't for the life of me figure out how to show the flawless form buff (using the devlin WA)

[honest basin]

Blades and lily should never desync, they're both 1.5m CDs

[fast mantle]

its in the general rogue section of the settings

[void needle]

blades is not a 1 minute cd

[honest basin]

If you're popping them together they'll always be synced, cdr only applies to dance and sectech

[void needle]

It has cdr

look at talents

[old venture]

There isn’t a specific channel, you can usually just ask in the spec channels. Also bug @spark tusk

[hazy breach]

Is it the CDR affix in m+ this week on NA

[honest basin]

Shadow Blades does not have CDR. Shadow Dance and Secret Technique do

Oh

I haven't done m+ yet since at work, that's likely what it is

Last week was mastery balls

[void needle]

Is that what the affix is?

gross

[honest basin]

So ye it's probs the cdr affiz

[peak jetty]

That is super helpful. Tyvm

[honest basin]

Affix*

[honest basin]

Yeah if the cdr affix happens either resign yourself to trinket being desynced or hold blades for trinket anyways and ignore the cdr lmao. It feels pretty terrible

Hate that fuckin affix

[void needle]

Wish I had prism 🙁

Then I wouldn't have an issue sending it one stack or so short

[pliant arrow]

Just came back after a season break, currently im rocking pvp trinket (xd) and prism. Would y'all use pvp on pull and prism second cd set? and then alternate?

[spark tusk]

You can go to New Aura -> Premade Auras then follow the steps to make a template aura, it will give you flawless form as a buff option and it will make the aura for you

Then study that aura to understand how it's put together

Such an aura will be very straightforward

[honest basin]

Yeah smth like that. Is the PVP trinket 2min or 1.5?

[pliant arrow]

1 min

[high eagle]

I think pvp is 1 minute right?

[honest basin]

Can technically do pvp->pvp->prism at max stacks

[upbeat sorrel]

this is terrible

[high eagle]

What's the stat the pvp trinket gives passive?

[honest basin]

Since it takes like 2.5 or so for prism to fully stack on average

[upbeat sorrel]

[pliant arrow]

pvp trinket is the dogshit honor one, not the conquest version, maybe doing a lil pvp-prism-prism would be ok?

[honest basin]

Sack isn't horrendous

Unless you already have antenna

[upbeat sorrel]

i have antenna

[honest basin]

Trolled hard then

[void needle]

Sack high/low balls constantly, and is only good in st

[honest basin]

GG go next vault

[upbeat sorrel]

i even shrouded to the vault to sneak up on it

i've been had

[cinder axle]

Is it possible to pre stack Prism with a punching bag before the key in m+ starts?

[void needle]

Nah

[honest basin]

I did say it isn't horrendous,I ain't ever said it was good LMAO

[void needle]

I mean it is horrendous in aoe

[honest basin]

Ehh in AOE anything that doesn't give stats is pretty bad bc it'll never scale as well as a shitload of a good secondary

[hazy breach]

No, starting a key or pulling a raid boss resets it

[void needle]

It sims lower than vexies pit whistle from last season in aoe

[cinder axle]

sadge

[void needle]

Not even mass aoe, this is 5 target

[honest basin]

Yeah no degen punching bag tech

[cinder axle]

y its sad cause u play the first pull basicly without ur trinket xD

[hazy breach]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[hazy breach]

Ye but you get to bang later

[honest basin]

Even without you can still do more than basically anyone but a warlock so who cares

Trinkets are a crutch

[void needle]

Yeah, fdk is overrated in m+ imo. I was out damaging them consistantly even without 4p

[honest basin]

[cinder axle]

if the pull lives long i cant beat shamis dks or logs in the first m+ pull^^

[honest basin]

I've yet to see Frost really pop off

[cinder axle]

after that i can

[honest basin]

They're solid fs but not op

[hazy vigil]

do we know what the reason is blizzard isn't adding death from above as a talent instead of a pvp talent?

it's the one thing keeping me from playing the spec

[honest basin]

Coup is basically dfa

[hazy breach]

Tons of people hated it, being forced to sit in a longass animation that often made you land in dangerous spets

[hazy vigil]

but it is not the epic animation :p

[hazy breach]

Just like killing spree until this patch

[summer peak]

hey guys, does anyone know why this doesnt work. i sometimes press it twice and uses SOD twice. (i only use for opener / 3 mins CDS)

/cast [stance:0] Shadow Dance
/USE Tempered Potion
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
/cast [known:The First Dance] Backstab

[hazy breach]

But ye sectech should have a cooler animation

[honest basin]

The animation was the worst part bc it killed you lmao

[void needle]

Same with s1 coup not gonna lie

[honest basin]

What you don't like the lil spin? XD

[void needle]

That charge had me fucked up

[honest basin]

You just do a lil spin and bam shadow clones appear 😂😂

[hazy vigil]

it feels like a powerful ability

[void needle]

I don't even see the clones most of the time

[honest basin]

I died to that charge on ansurek like 4 times during prog and will never forgive blizz for that

[void needle]

The gcd is still fucked for whatever reason

I will say I don't mind the sound design for sub. Evis sounds impactful, and sectech BOOMS lmao

Even if all the visuals are very subtle

Armory bug is fixed btw

[wet idol]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[sleek tide]

Do you ever send ST with only shadow dance if symbols is on cd

Or wait the 10s for symbols to come up in those one off instances

[crystal bone]

hmm

i have champ prism

[lusty solar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[void needle]

Max champ to max myth is like another 2% increase on prism

Heroic is like .5%

[crystal bone]

yea ill take bis dagger i suppose

its vers mast

[placid elk]

any info on rotten? i see some ppl use it on rio but idk if thats their raid cleave build or m+

[void needle]

That's probably where I'd go

[void needle]

Personally, I don't run rotten at all. But it does get far more value in aoe than anything else

[vale pine]

rotten becomes less relevant with higher gear

but people like it to secure find weakness on all targtes in aoe

[vale osprey]

I'm a sub idiot, can we have too much mast + vers or is it just stack to heavens?

[placid elk]

so wait, crits from the rotten spread find weakness through nimble flurry?

[void needle]

no, flurry doesn't do anything

[hazy breach]

No

[void needle]

Crits on shuriken storm guarantee fw

[placid elk]

oh i see. i was overthinking it

i might take it for a few keys, with my 19% crit

[void needle]

sim it. Crit gets a lot of value

[acoustic matrix]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Also no need to overthink stats, as long as you dont get haste youre good

[void needle]

I run double cursed crit enchants on rings, and use crit/mast gems atm

[astral axle]

i just want sectec animation to look like this

[lapis gull]

I have 31% crit so, my sims want me to split vers/mastery enchants

[hybrid beacon]

in terms of m+ im seeing people using the cold blood build with the rotten and the tea build without the rotten, are there certain dungeons where one is better? if its about the same damage, I prefer the CB build, so i am just a little confused

[hazy breach]

Its about the same, you can do whichever you prefer

[void needle]

Those combos are probably 100% the same

[hybrid beacon]

sounds good tyty, CB with ST is just too fun to press

[void needle]

I prefer tea for better energy management in M+ since you also pick up vigor. It's only like a 1.5% difference in st vs cb. I've also seen top raid parses with tea. Out of all things, this is not the talent choice that will make or break your damage in any content.

[hybrid beacon]

that is true, sometimes i run into the problem of not being able to get a feint off cause im out of energy when i need it

[honest basin]

Talents aren't real, press button good, do big dam

[void needle]

^

Especially on trickster, it's hard to go particularlly wrong

[spark tusk]

So I should NOT be resetting charges of UB on raid boss pull? Or is this only referring to M+ bosses?

Right now I am doing this on encounter start to reset stacks

[void needle]

It's just really hard to

[lucid jackal]

wtf do people mean when they say "energy management in M+"

If ur in dance u have unlimited energy

and outside u do ZDPS anyway so who cares about energy

[placid elk]

yeah but my apm..

[hazy breach]

The stacks of unseen blade resets when you pull a raid boss or start a key

[void needle]

I mash bs in downtime, I get bored. But I also need to press feint

[hazy breach]

Disorienting strikes do not

[alpine wraith]

likely to not proc tea

but idk

who cares

just go brrr

[spark tusk]

Isn't disorienting strikes the extra charges? I don't understand the difference

[hazy breach]

Disorienting strikes doesnt go away if you die either, its only when you change talents or zone

[honest basin]

Energy is a real resource just like mana for casters trust me bro

[hazy breach]

Disorienting makes the next two ignore the cd ye

But if you go into a raid boss with 3 stacks of escalating already, those 3 stacks get removed

[void needle]

I've never not had the mana to cast a defensive though

[limpid sage]

You can get unlucky if you send a dance at low energy

[hazy breach]

But the disorienting strikes effect does not

[hybrid beacon]

I'm so bad at hitting feint its really my biggest mistake when i play rogue

[honest basin]

I've never not had the energy to cast feint when needed

And I have been too oom to use a defensive but mop doesn't really count

[mental kettle]

is the ST build (trickster) any different to rotation comparing to the M+ build? Except the CB optimisation

[honest basin]

That was like a bazillion years ago

[spark tusk]

Right so if you sec tec on trash before a boss, your next 2-3 ubs will happen right away. If you pull the boss in this state you WILL or WILL NOT maintain those 2-3 free ubs?

Right now the WA assumes you lose them

[hazy breach]

If theyre proced after the boss is pulled they will stay yes. The next 3 ubs will proc on your first 3 builders

[spark tusk]

Alright, then I need to remove that block

[fast elbow]

hey do u use dungeon slice for sim or 5 target 5 minutes?

[spark tusk]

Glad I dipped in for a sec to see that

I wasn't aware

[hazy breach]

Idk if you have it set to be removed if you die

[spark tusk]

No I don't

[hazy breach]

[spark tusk]

We tested that I rememebr on PTR and specifically left it out

[prime glen]

without simming, do you think the heroic boots maxed at 710 would be better than 720 crafted boots?

[hazy breach]

But ye theyve forgotten to include this in the "remove when you pull a boss"

[hazy breach]

Yes

[prime glen]

ah ok, def gonna aim for those then. thx

[spark tusk]

Has it always been like this or did it change recently? I don't think I tested it, I think I only assumed it functioned the same way as the DF season 3 counter which was reset on boss pull

So I assumed such a hidden counter would act similarly

[hazy breach]

Been that way all expac im pretty sure

[spark tusk]

🫠

[astral axle]

LE has W Aura

[spark tusk]

For now, soon all of us will have 0 aura

🫠

[lime obsidian]

Do we only cast shuriken storm outside of dance? except for 4set itneraction?

even if its 10 targets for example

[bitter needle]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[hazy breach]

Correct

Storm does pitiful damage and does not interact with the trickster tree

Proccing unseen blades and coups is way more valueable than some extra cp

[lilac stag]

fuckin hell finally

[limpid sage]

The pain of spamming that dungeon is worse than any other spam I’ve done

[lilac stag]

i like it, just got the crit ring like 30214324 times

[limpid sage]

and it was less than half as long as my Underrot spam

Dawn is prob my least favorite dungeon to date

[lilac stag]

its a fun sub dungeon and you can carry keys quite easy in pugs

[regal rose]

what dungeons are best for sub and whats best for assasination

[lilac stag]

everything is sub

go away with assa

[regal rose]

when i symbols and dance do i always wanna make sure i have 2 charges of each ? when i shadow blades

how long do i hold cds im trying to figure out

[lime obsidian]

Ah ok thanks, thought maybe for applying find weakness on mass pulls

[hazy breach]

Thatll happen with the coup 4p storm

[summer peak]

hey guys, does anyone know why this doesnt work. i sometimes press it twice and uses SOD twice. (i only use for opener / 3 mins CDS

/cast [stance:0] Shadow Dance
/USE Tempered Potion
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
/cast [known:The First Dance] Backstab

[hazy breach]

And/or having it applied before you start the dance

[lilac stag]

TFD isnt a cast

and you dont want that macro anyways

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[summer peak]

I use that on my opener

Not for second dance

[river cargo]

when playing the rotten how should your opening look like? Right now ive been SD>SoD>Backstab>SecTech>SS>Evis.
Should I be opening SD>SoD>Shuriken Storm>Sec>Backstab?

[regal rose]

im trying to understand what u said cause im doing soemthing wrong

[lilac stag]

people making extra keybinds

[lucid jackal]

No abckstab

The only reason u backstab is for premed

and premed wouldnt work because storm was your first generator

[lilac stag]

which part, you basically need 30 seconds or less on your 2nd dance charge CD. all three guides have visual timings I believe

[thick field]

!log

[lilac stag]

figure out how quickly cdr happens in a key is something you have to learn by doing

[river cargo]

so we are just swapping backstab for shuriken storm to spread find weakness?

[dusty totem]

With new tier it should not be that important to do back to back sd tho right?

[warm marlin]

you still want your entire blades window to have dance

[dusty totem]

Yes yes ofc but it should be okay to do eg. last finisher of first sd outside if first sd and before 2nd sd

[hazy breach]

Why would you want one of your 16 globals in dance (thats doing like 60-70% of your total damage) to be doing like 50% less damage for no reason

[pulsar hemlock]

Why not

[warm marlin]

its less awful than before because you're not losing tier yes but its still bad

[dusty totem]

Okay thanks

[lilac stag]

@keen dome went from 701 to 708 even better than expected

[keen dome]

Huuuuuuge gains. Love to see it

[lofty skiff]

do people have eny good CD's macro for sub? and when to pop netherprism trinket in fatebound sub?

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[frigid schooner]

i dont think it works like that

[lofty skiff]

so you pop thistle tea into every dance?

And you have macroed all this into theese 2 macros, and press them everytime?

and do people have the backstab/shadowstrike macro in 1 button - or do people press them seperately?

[random comet]

pour one out for ya boi 🙁

[leaden prairie]

ah thanks

no one ever answered me

kinda wild no ?

[jagged rover]

get sacbrood and become a feral druid

[leaden prairie]

useleless discord ..

[jagged rover]

above 100% crit does nothing, theres no crit damage increase unless your spec has it in talents

[leaden prairie]

thanks for the answer !

so glad i finally know now

[onyx dawn]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[jagged rover]

wait I just followed the replies back, why was that being replied to lmao

[leaden prairie]

idk i think it was my first message

[onyx dawn]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[slate lantern]

Feral doesn't even want sacbrood

[frail anchor]

Just a beginner question for someone looking to try sub...the opening rotation looks really complex?

Is it in practice?

[lucid jackal]

Its very easy

deceptively easy

[lime obsidian]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[slate lantern]

It seems overwhelming at first but just go hit dummies for a lil while, make sure your bindings are comfy, and you'll be right as rain

[hollow spear]

I cannot for the life of me find the spell id for the pvp trinket

anyone of you got that?

[frail anchor]

I usually play feral so some of the abilities feel very familiar

[orchid rampart]

in AoE pulls do i treat shadow dance like vanish for outlaw? like don't dump back to back but use than couple moves inbetween than use again?

[wheat sentinel]

It reads harder than it actually is.

Especially once you're used to it

[dusk sparrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[jagged rover]

have the name of the trinket?

actually nvm found the name, one sec

230638

[slate lantern]

No they go immediately back to back in cd windows

[jagged rover]

if you need the effect specifically its 365043

[frigid schooner]

yeah, idk. i felt like i had to answer man

[fair stump]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[frigid schooner]

yeah, was your first message

[leaden prairie]

thank you appreciate it

[frigid schooner]

[acoustic matrix]

Guys I notice I find myself in a situation where I'm low in energy and it takes ages to build 6 combo points for Flag at low target counts. Are there any workarounds to that ?

[jagged rover]

stop hitting buttons

[frigid schooner]

you basically press nothing

[slate lantern]

Have more energy when you press flag

[frigid schooner]

in the secodns leading to your big cd window

[jagged rover]

energy is potential damage, as long as you aren't overcapping you aren't losing damage, stop hitting buttons

[acoustic matrix]

Does that also account for my Dance/Symbols window ?

Or just for flag

[half orchid]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[slate lantern]

I mean once you're in your dance you won't have any energy issues

But you should always have full cp before you press flag to start your window

[fair stump]

Where do we usually fit thistle tea?

[mental kettle]

is dementor HC same as normal except pools in p1 and grip in p2

[slate lantern]

Put thistle on shadow dance macro and forget it

[fair stump]

So thistle is pressed every time I press dance?

[slate lantern]

Yus

If you have it

[fair stump]

got it, thanks

[mental kettle]

i hate tea

[fair stump]

I forgot how to play this class after one season of not playing

[mental kettle]

really

and auto tea

gg

[fair stump]

How many sectecs do we usually fit in a burst?

[fair stump]

I hate BP way more

[mental kettle]

tbh i acc hate trying to get second coup

on ST

thank you so much for 1 cp FoK

[swift tinsel]

Typically one, sometimes two if you have The First Dance

[fair stump]

you actively work toward that? I thought coup just happened naturally while doing the rotation

[mental kettle]

YEAH BUT

second coup with set is annoying

trying to get to 6+ cp with fok

[swift tinsel]

Pool energy/sht before sending first coup

[fair stump]

Does the rotation change somehow with 4set?

[upper narwhal]

you don't do that

[swift tinsel]

Or vanish

[mental kettle]

yeah i do @swift tinsel when i think about it

did i misread the guide?

i thought u dont press Bs after first coup

[upper narwhal]

you fok in blades or with vanish

[mental kettle]

cuz they dont get stored

[swift tinsel]

You only storm once between coups in blades

Otherwise you just eat the lost eb stacks

Outside of blades

In aoe you can storm once

[fair stump]

huh

[swift tinsel]

But never want to more than once

[fair stump]

You storm between coups? I sent them back to back

[mental kettle]

only works on refunds

[swift tinsel]

If you get a shadowcraft refund you don’t need to build

[mental kettle]

?

[spark tusk]

Very minor question, but do you know if the basic cooldown on UB is reset on boss start? e.g. you cast UB 10 seconds ago, pull boss, does CD reset to 0 at that time?

[upper narwhal]

if you need to build to coup again you storm in AoE or with blades up

[swift tinsel]

So you don’t storm

[fair stump]

Ohhhh

[hazy breach]

I dont think so, but maybe

[mental kettle]

do UB go France if u press BS when u have coup ready

first coup

[upper narwhal]

yep but not much you can do about it

[mental kettle]

fok on ST

giga

[swift tinsel]

You can toss if you don’t wanna storm

Or shiv lol

Storm just does most damage

Of the non-strike/bs builders

[sullen hare]

toss would legitimately be the worst timeline how dare you put that in my brain

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

[sullen hare]

oh I was there for BFA trust me

harambe died in 2016 and then we had to do 3x sharpened blades

because we firmly cemented ourselves in the bad timeline

[fallen marsh]

should i just macro prism or use it like i did spymasters season 1?

[sullen hare]

I just use mine every 90

w/ sblades

[fallen marsh]

what i was thinking too

[wintry holly]

Is the "press shuriken storm in between 4set proc Coup De Grace" rule only relevant during ShadowBlades because you wont get to full CP otherwise?

[sullen hare]

it's relevant:

• only when in shadow blades
• if you need to generate combo points for the second coup

[slender beacon]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[sullen hare]

if you have a full rack of combo points just send the second coup right after

[dusk stone]

why does it say 30 if its 28.5%

[dusk stone]

storm costs a lot of energy

[wintry holly]

Fair

Ty!

[dusk stone]

also coup proc lasts 5 seconds and during blades' you have full cp on any finisher

you likely miss coup proc with cb build if you do storm

[wintry holly]

Yeah, doing a load of testing random bits on a dummy now, and was finding that (1) its loads of energy and needs at least 2-3 storms outside of dance, and (2) you struggle to actually consume the second.

[dusk stone]

sending low cp coup is better than losing it

but there's finesse to it for sure because big coup is big damage

[hardy raptor]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[pearl token]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[modest river]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[boreal sierra]

myth tier chest or myth pacemaker from vault? have both on hero alrdy

[void needle]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[gloomy slate]

Saw this and almost fell to my knees in the middle of a Walmart until I saw that it said pandaria not retail

[shrewd lantern]

Is replicating/finality vs PE/imp sht just a personal sim angle.

Or a "not big enough to matter" angle

[manic salmon]

good one

[jagged bear]

is the hour long tricks bugged?

[hazy breach]

No

Hit a mob during the 30s buff

[shrewd lantern]

....Are people just walking into mobs

and expecting tricks to redirect proximity aggro

[swift tinsel]

I can tell you from getting melee’d by raid bosses bc someone pulled early that it does not lmao

[shrewd lantern]

Just name them, boomkins

we know its the dumb chickens 90% of the tme

[swift tinsel]

It’s actually the warlock most of the time lol

[shrewd lantern]

Boomies just need to give us a weekly reminder that they can't count to 4.

[swift tinsel]

Our tanks kinda pull anywhere between 2 and 0 so it’s a gamble

[shrewd lantern]

It's alright.

[swift tinsel]

They’re so worried about getting aggro on pull that they surprise us

I hate it

[shrewd lantern]

Alr on a serious note

Do these 4 nodes actually not matter

[gloomy slate]

I’m pulling aggro with fully stacked nether prism when mobs are low, these tanks are garb

[quiet smelt]

whats pre key setup for sub ?

[swift tinsel]

Dance negates your threat so that should help

[hazy breach]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[lavish rose]

so thats why brann always rips threat

[swift tinsel]

Yep it’s great

[quiet smelt]

so we literally just symbols before the key ?

[swift tinsel]

You get a negative ten million threat modifier on dance press

[warm marlin]

you have infinite tricks

the only time you should rip threat is when everyone else in your party is dead

[high eagle]

do we get a full spark this week?

[swift tinsel]

Nah catalyst

Second spark was last week

[grand hemlock]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[storm gorge]

how well does sub perform compared to outlaw in aoe?

And if I were to switch, what abilities for outlaw is similar to sub? I can't really seem to figure out what abilities go where..

[lavish rose]

its really different lol

iirc outlaw is target capped? but possibly better for limited low target

shindig lpayed outlaw on the council fight last night

[storm gorge]

yea outlaw is 8 targets hard capped

[hexed sluice]

Backstab/shadowstrike for sinstrike and ambush. And then Yolo the rest

[lavish rose]

there are outlaws that do a ton of content

but its probably objectively best on consistent lower target counts

[chrome palm]

oops

[lavish rose]

phys M+ comps

[storm gorge]

yea i've played outlaw for ever, but i was wanting to try sub. I just find it really difficult to switch tbh

[lavish rose]

yea they crazy different

but so satisfying to hit a big sec tech on a pack

also feels really good in the raid when there's burst aoe

if ur cds line up with it u go crazy style

[storm gorge]

yea i was mostly considering it for raid cuz i feel outlaw st is low compared to, but it might be bcs i do m+ mostly

[lavish rose]

it seems generally preferred for raid in most scenarios

im no expert tho

[alpine wraith]

outlaw actually does more st than sub

by quite a bit

[storm gorge]

yea honestly i feel like, and for what i've read on the outlaw disc, outlaw is in a bad spot

[alpine wraith]

sub just has more cleave/aoe

all rogue specs are kinda mid in st but very useful in raid

[lavish rose]

sub also lines u better with damage amps no?

burn phases

[storm gorge]

idk outlaw like, has perma ar up, so there's no cd's. But like idk, i might just be bad st

[lavish rose]

every time i try outlaw on a dummy im doing something deepl ywrong and it take sme very long to ge tmy numbers up lol

[storm gorge]

in aoe i mostly do like 10-15m but st it's like, sub 3m

[grave parcel]

Just wondering what you guys think is best move for me on what to take. I already have legs, but they are champion rank. Pointless to take shoulders i think because im gonna make chest this week which gives me 4 set. Do i take the mythic dagger for offhand even tho my current one is hero rank?

[storm gorge]

which is terrible

[quiet smelt]

are we playing thistle tea in keys or cb ?

[hazy breach]

Both are fine

[quiet smelt]

tree from here has us playing tea but the wowhead stuff doesnt by defaukt

[summer lynx]

How does attena stand for now now?

[hazy breach]

Same as before

the nerf is so miniscule that it doesnt matter

[stray plank]

anyone know rupture debuff ID?

[slender wing]

Outlaw has to play out of their mind to do well, and are hella punished by bad mechanic luck on some bosses.

I think most people on most bosses are going to find outlaw sub par to other specs, and on nexus king and dimensius outlaw kinda blows.

[grave parcel]

@hazy breach any advice on that vault question just up a scroll?

[wintry holly]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[alpine wraith]

dagger to get on mainhand

unless you can get M one from loom

[hazy breach]

Idk probably dagger if you dont have a mythic dagger

[stray plank]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Otherwise i dont think it matters that much

[modest river]

dagger sounds like the play, considering the raid loot on that vault isnt mythic, but do sim it once

[hollow spear]

What's the point of the antenna nerf, that's at a level of "why even bother"

[odd sandal]

guys do u know how much of a gain Shuriken Storm is between Coup De Grace?

[grave parcel]

roger that thanks all for the input thats the way i was leaning

[modest river]

Also, id like to say someone told me off start of the tier on this discord about using double on use trinkets, is anyone else going down that route?

[hazy breach]

Slightly less than 1%

[shrewd lantern]

@hazy breach is pe/imp sht just better than replicating/finality this season

for st/add spawns sometimes

[half comet]

any1 know if the dagger recraft to save crests works still?

[hazy breach]

Generally adds dont live long enough to bother rupturing

[hazy breach]

Does not

[shrewd lantern]

yeah so i guess PE just better this season

iirc replicating was more s2 even on raw st

[shrewd lantern]

it was primarily in reference to, "Add spawns, but realistically dies within 2-3 gcds of your sectec going off"

or gets blown up by the sectec in question

[high eagle]

Do I go lily or myth pants?

already have heroic prism & heroic pacemaker

as trinkets

[slender totem]

!plater

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[steel zinc]

dagger

[chrome palm]

prob pants

or socket

depents on how contested pants are in your raid

[dusk stone]

lilly is not that great

[high eagle]

Yea I'm not crazy about lily. i already have it heroic 710 as well.

idk. not a great vault.

[dusk stone]

the thing about why prism is so good is it lasts 20 seconds instead of the normal 15. Subs burst is actually 24 seconds long

i think thats part of why passives usually sim so good for us

[high eagle]

The biggest reason I'm even making it harder on myself is I'm thinking, what if they nerf prism/trinkets more? does lily gain in the double on use department? or gain period. etc

[dusk stone]

they said they werent going to

also double on use with lily is bad

[high eagle]

Its even harder with these vault choices because I have tier legs heroic already and heroic lily. so the gains from any of these choices in sims is minimal.

[shrewd lantern]

there are multiple ways to get a mythic tier leg

[dusk stone]

there is not a significant difference between hero and myth lilly as well

whereas prism has dumb scaling

[high eagle]

agreed.

[shrewd lantern]

either way prism is primarily good paired with forge

[dusk stone]

lily is worse than hoc, and hoc already wasn't that impressive

[shrewd lantern]

where prism effectively gets to zoot out its 3min potential

[dusk stone]

idk i am not a huge fan of 3 minute prism

its good for damage amps

[modest river]

its good with second pot tho

[dusk stone]

its essentially the same argument as 3 dance flag instead of 2 dance flag

[shrewd lantern]

I mean its way more potent due to being alternated with forge

and damage amps

if forge wasnt a thing you wouldnt play double

[dusk stone]

you overcap and waste value, except with prism being worse because its an in combat type effect instead of time

[high eagle]

I'm trying to over min-max my choice. its legs or socket. do i send legs and forget about it, 1 less thing to potentially have to catalyst later or just rapidly get sockets. Lol paralysis by analysis.

[dusk stone]

were the legs not myth?

[high eagle]

they are

[shrewd lantern]

i mean i would personally get lily unless you intend on getting myth forge

and prism soonish

[dusk stone]

you get a cata charge this week too

nah you just go farm eco dome for lilly

[swift tinsel]

They already have a heroic one

[shrewd lantern]

its about it being myth

[high eagle]

yea I have lily heroic. Its the MYTHIC part that gets me everytime lmao

[shrewd lantern]

dont recall if trinket slot has more mainstat than legs

[dusk stone]

how much stat is lilly giving per track increase

[shrewd lantern]

legs has stamina so if your healers are bots

thats points to legs

[swift tinsel]

Sim them at max upgrade ig