subtlety

[bleak night]

blacker powderer

[swift tinsel]

It was a tiny bit disruptive but conceptually cool

[bleak night]

oh god this spec is gonna have an empower isnt it

[swift tinsel]

Nado

Or we get paper bombs

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade i'm ready to ascend on reset. right now lowest ilvl, but sitting on a ton of crests. should be going from 701 to 706 depedning on vault

[frank crescent]

Luxthos' WA pack doesn't show supercharged combo points. The wowhead guide lists "Le's Weakauras" as an alternative, but the wago hasn't been updated for 11.2 as far as I can tell. Anyone know if it still works okay?

[swift tinsel]

I’m 1000% getting hc prism

[tribal blade]

huge!

[keen moon]

Inside my CDs, if I don't refresh my combo points when procing my tier set, shouldn't I use shadowstrike to use the second coup de grace? So in single I would use backstab and in AOE shuriken storm, then back to shadowstrike?

[swift tinsel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lilac stag]

i hadnt looked closely at our LC sheet and legit i'm lowest of the guild haha

[shadow lance]

11.2 is current patch

[bleak night]

oh paper bombs would go hard

[hazy breach]

During blades you would shuriken storm inbetween your coups

[bleak night]

thats a fun idea

[hazy breach]

Regardless of targets

[swift tinsel]

Very on-brand ninja aoe ability

[frank crescent]

Yeah and Le's auras say 11.1.7

Updated Jul 23

[swift tinsel]

Could attach paper bombs and BP intensifies them

[tribal blade]

you'll catch up in no time

[swift tinsel]

Or adds a stack to the dot

[shadow lance]

It doesn't matter

Nothing changed

[proven plover]

I'm using LEs WAs and would recommend them any day. works very well

[lilac stag]

yeah wasnt too worried about it, didnt want to waste crests

[frank crescent]

Oh haha okay many thanks

[swift tinsel]

Yeah LE’s auras are fantastic

10/10 recommend

[keen dome]

Blasting, hell yeah

I think I can hit 710 this reset but I'm also lazy now

I did aotc, season done. Lazymode.

[shadow lance]

@spark tusk people greetings you

[graceful osprey]

Black powder causes targets struck to explode triggering another black powder at the target.

[swift tinsel]

I’m hoping to hit 707-710 this week if I can finagle a good vault

[lilac stag]

sir Mythic pug. get the 1 and 3 down and you get Loth loot in vault

[bleak night]

ye i stole LE's weak aura pack and copied it for hunter bc i couldnt find anything comparable

very good stuff

[keen dome]

Ye I really need to

Maybe I try that in a bit

[bleak night]

[lilac stag]

3% buff this week and people with more gear

[runic trail]

1 and 3 are pretty chill

[keen dome]

But both of the Plexus groups I tried had people failing NORMAL mechanics

[graceful osprey]

And then all abilities will have a chance to trigger a free black powder at max combo points

[keen dome]

So I was like yeah you know what

[shadow lance]

707 rn, I think I get get the 711 on the reset

[bleak night]

im only 705

still stuck with 694 gloves

kinda cursed

[swift tinsel]

701, was dumb with runed crests bc I got flooded with 694 hero track and sent too many

[haughty mural]

Actually the same situation as I got

I can send it all on reset

[swift tinsel]

Lucked into 4pc hero track by week 2 reset

[lilac stag]

noice

i have 1 myth, 2 rf and 1 heroic for tier LOL

[bleak night]

what a gamer

i have 2 heroic 2 normal

[runic trail]

Same, can just save cata for myth track now

[bleak night]

and i had to send both cata charges to even get the heroic

[haughty mural]

I just wanna replace my tier shoulders

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that’s my plan too unless I get prism in vault

Or sigil

I got hero track loom shoulders too so I’m stylin

[lilac stag]

i had to take the RF ilvl from Vault

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

Need a ring and trinkets then it’s just myth track replacements

[keen dome]

I've still got 691 leg/ shoulders

I think I'm just plain done with runed on reset though

[runic trail]

I need to replace the belt then I'm at least full 4/6 hero and done with runed

[swift tinsel]

Had very bad ring drop luck (zero from m+)

Oh and OH but that slot doesn’t count

Got a netherspike for mog tho

[lilac stag]

netherspike mog OP

[bleak night]

real

[swift tinsel]

We kill saladbar tonight and he drops hero track spike for me

[bleak night]

i got a heroic netherspike

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/wanda-maximoff-gif-16537021367469447634

[bleak night]

its so cool

not as cool as the 2h sword but still very good

[swift tinsel]

I sent dagger craft so I’m good on wep until we start mythic

[bleak night]

ye same

[swift tinsel]

Hopefully next week or the week after

[bleak night]

but then we got a dagger from normal loom, two daggers from heroic loom, and two daggers from heroic salad bar

im the only rogue

[swift tinsel]

Idk how long were gonna do normals for cloak boots bc people wanna farm them ig

[bleak night]

[keen dome]

I got the Saladbar dagger, it's cool

[keen dome]

Just tell them to loot them on their first kills

[swift tinsel]

Lol we’ve only had one normal spike drop so far no looms but I’m only rogue so I hoover daggers too lol

And agi 1h bc no more windwalkers

And our enh plays ele now

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

Not like I’ll ever touch outlaw

[bleak night]

our enhance has refused to swap to ele

and still pumps

[lilac stag]

ok, 4 myth and 5 heroic vault options. surely I get 6 cloaks

[bleak night]

i want to be like him when i grow up

[swift tinsel]

Ours is good at both and flexes resto a lot

[keen dome]

I'm excited to open my vault tommorow and have that dagger again

[swift tinsel]

Lmao I’m expecting another one too

Only have 2 myth m+ slots today and I’m better it’s in one of them

[mighty moss]

Can someone help me pls? Why when i activated RTB with loaded dice talent , i cant roll 2 combinations? usually i rolled 1

[swift tinsel]

Was slacking on 10’s bc was helping gear a few people in 8-9’s

[keen dome]

One channel up and the Outlaw's should be able to help with that 🙂

[swift tinsel]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923682607857685

The pirates can be an interesting bunch

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/china-anne-mcclain-descendants-uma-pirate-sea-witch-gif-26242960

[graceful osprey]

Probably better to pick trinkets than tier?

[lilac stag]

at this point, likely. You should have 3 catalysts with reset

[swift tinsel]

How I picture every outlaw main

If you have 4pc already I’d take trinkets personally unless you’re stacked there

The power of tier is in the bonus so ilvl upgrades are just kinda there

[kind bluff]

Hmmmmm double on use, or antenna?

[mossy zodiac]

Guys i need ur help so bad, I understand the class mechanics, the burst windows with Shadow Dance, and the timing of 2 Shadow Dances per cd (Flag and SB) but I really don't know why my damage is so low. I often see people using Flawless Form a lot for AoE bursts with finishers of st or prio, but I don't know how to apply it or how to play around the FF. I'm unsure when to use Eviscerate or Black Powder, and when to choose one over the other for the FF too. I get the part about the set bonus and not using Backstab when I have the Coup since I come from playing Outlaw, I understand the very basics, but I think I'm just button mashing lol

[lilac stag]

dbl on use kinda niche, so I'd likly run antenna. prism is the key

[hazy breach]

You dont really think about or play around flawless form

[swift tinsel]

If nimble played closer to/at its target cap we’d actually think about it

Imagine a world

[opal basalt]

Maybe with reworked hero talents in midnight

[swift tinsel]

[pine swift]

Hey ! Can someone explain me why are we using black powder at 4+ while nimble flurry can target 7 ?

[swift tinsel]

One can dream

[hazy breach]

Because it does more damage

[swift tinsel]

BP tuning

[opal basalt]

Maths

[lilac stag]

Science

[swift tinsel]

Engineering

[small crag]

Is Couple de Grace a button we gotta hit or it just kinda does it ?

[pine swift]

Seems stupid in my stupid mind

[hazy breach]

It is stupid

[swift tinsel]

Nah it’s unintuitive

[hazy breach]

But it is what it is

[mossy zodiac]

So i ignore nimble furry talent? and just use it at low targets (-3)

[proven plover]

because bp number higher than evis number on 4+

[hazy breach]

Its eviscerate that casts it

[proven plover]

because bp got buffed

[small crag]

ok i thought so, thanks

[opal basalt]

It transforms your Eviscerate

[main stratus]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[pine swift]

Okay thanks guys

[small crag]

ahh so even the icon will change?

I'll have to pay attention to that

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[hazy breach]

Well no, coup, shadowstrike, unseen blade and your autos still cleave

Its not only eviscerate

But yes, use BP at 4 or more target

[swift tinsel]

Icon changes and you get a proc glow around your keybind

Flurry is up when you need it in dance so it’s kind of an afterthought to ‘maintain’

[clever fog]

Hey guys, brand new sub rogue here wanting to learn in M+ - any good guides to watch or just go on icy veins?

[opal basalt]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[mossy zodiac]

So I was just making things harder for myself and screwing up my rotation? xdd

[opal basalt]

And also you can watch twitch streams like shindigwow

He plays sub in keys currently

[hazy breach]

Probably ye

[swift tinsel]

Rite of passage for newer sub rogues

[hazy breach]

Another common new player mistakes is to think too much about danse macabre and try to "minmax" it to get as many stacks as possible before sectech

Which is not good since a lot of the power of sectech is tied to the unseen blades you get after casting it

[keen dome]

@vale pine https://www.wowhead.com/news/march-on-queldanas-raid-delayed-2-3-weeks-after-season-start-midnight-raid-378325 mystery solved

[vale pine]

nice

[opal basalt]

Okay so which is the real rwf

Clearing all first or clearing each single raid first

[keen dome]

Yeah, guess we'll have to see.

Kinda weird

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that’s an interesting approach

[haughty mural]

Which mystery ?

[swift tinsel]

Being only a two boss raid and pushed back seems like an okay idea

[mossy zodiac]

Yeah, I did notice that, at first I saw things like 'press Backstab and then this and that to charge Danse Macabre' but now I just treat it as a passive and don't play around it, don´t want to break my head

[swift tinsel]

Makes it feel less congested ig

[keen dome]

We were discussing the release earlier and it wasn't clear when the final wing would be out.

I was suggesting it'd be a "FIrst 6 bosses in heroic week, final 2 with Mythic"

But nah, I'm wrong

[opal basalt]

As long as your first gcd in dance is a stab you’re playing around it enough I think

[haughty mural]

Oh ok

[swift tinsel]

Remove danse and buff dance

Plz

Ty

[opal basalt]

[swift tinsel]

It’s just another weird stacking thing

Which is whatever bc we cast Sectech first

[opal basalt]

One thing I really want is blizzard to never move away from the big burst playstyle tho

[swift tinsel]

Nah that needs to stay or sub is dead to me

[opal basalt]

Yup

[swift tinsel]

If they flatten the profile I’m out real quick

[opal basalt]

I loved UH in aberrus because that was your thing

[swift tinsel]

Idrc how tuning ends up as long as the gameplay/profile stays

[opal basalt]

I like Sub even more because you don’t need PI or Lust or anything to make that burst feel real good

[swift tinsel]

Yep

Reliance on my own ability to plan and execute

All I want

And sub scratches that itch so well

There’s small things they can do to ‘simplify’ it like they mentioned wanting to do for some specs in that post that wouldn’t interfere with that

[random hare]

@tepid trellis @vale pine

would u guys change anything here for M+

[gentle venture]

Hello, is there something wrong with this macro that Cold Blood doesn't cast? #showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[opal basalt]

I’m neither of them but I think Rotten is huge QoL

[gentle venture]

oh, thank you

[random hare]

rotten is abit sus

idk

doesnt work with strike flurry

and doesnt benefit flurry dmg

on FW

[swift tinsel]

Rotten overrated imo

[random hare]

so its w.e

[swift tinsel]

I’d play 1/2 finality over it personally

[warm marlin]

the rotten build should be a bit more st

[random hare]

by how much

[swift tinsel]

I also can’t give up inev so I’m stuck a bit build-wise lol

And hate PV

If those two nodes swapped spots tho

Goated move

Or delete PV entirely

[sullen oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/cute-cats-memes-i-love-gif-14945610996281344310

[warm marlin]

3% or so with my character

[opal basalt]

Idk I tried out that build guy posted a few times here yesterday

And I liked that a lot

[random hare]

rly?

[warm marlin]

but im a rotten truther

[random hare]

so i drop finality

or

[sullen oriole]

@vale pine i like ur wowhead guide. The written rotation guide helped me very much with understanding everything

[warm marlin]

yea but ur saccing aoe (3mins full raid buffs, idk ur comp)

[vale pine]

you can changes some talents as you like.
E.g. some of the top m+ players like to focus on st a bit more and would move the finality points around and skip pv.
so something like this might be common:

[opal basalt]

Also doesn’t have rotten

[swift tinsel]

I dont mind rotten so much in st but I don’t love it for fw aoe stuff

[vale pine]

also tea vs cb, tea gives slightly better aoe while ct is more st/cleave oriented

talents are about trade offs and allow you to decide which ones you want to take

[random hare]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tWCtC521YrHJuNBcTua4rS

0.1% for me

idk

[opal basalt]

I still don’t know what to think about tea

[random hare]

oh

m,aybe i drop pv

or

[warm marlin]

ya its about inevitability too

[random hare]

i check

[opal basalt]

It always gets used up in the backstab phase before next flag for me

Maybe I just backstab too much

And should pool energy more

[swift tinsel]

I tried tea but went back to cb

[warm marlin]

was referring to this rotten build with no finality which is def losing some aoe for it

[opal basalt]

But that also means less sht stacks

[random hare]

wtf

3.1%

no cappy

insane

how much is it a loss on dslice now

lets see

[swift tinsel]

Ye that’s what I’m running but 1/2 finality no rotten

[warm marlin]

no inevitability kinda feels really bad idk

[swift tinsel]

Plays quite comfy

[gray orbit]

Hey any usefull macros for sub rog im just starting to learn it would pref to have less binds overall 😄

[swift tinsel]

Inev is just a good feeling talent imo

[opal basalt]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

The extra shadowcraft coverage is notable and I don’t like playing without it

[slate marlin]

Whats the difference btween 1 finality+inev vs 2 finality?

[opal basalt]

Or what was the one for the backstab dance

[warm marlin]

finality = more aoe, inev = more st

[opal basalt]

Does that make 2x finality builds more low key friendly

[frank crescent]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/subtlety/best-weakauras-macros-addons
Also just picking this up now. The wowhead guide say the CB optimization in the opener is only a 1% dps gain. I'll be using the simpler version until I'm more used to the spec personally.

[swift tinsel]

Idk I like having more boss/prio damage

[opal basalt]

Same

[swift tinsel]

Which doesn’t really matter as much in low keys unless your comp is griefing and going full pad

[opal basalt]

Like idk I’m getting fucked over by chainpulling tanks anyways

In my +10 pugs

[lilac stag]

you're not

[swift tinsel]

Storm basically becomes premed in appreciable pulls so the loss of stealth is whatever

[opal basalt]

Should I anticipate when the tank pulls big and hold flag for that?

[fair anchor]

Petition to rename it "Back Massage"

[opal basalt]

I mean with cooldown timings not restealthing btw

[swift tinsel]

I send flag whenever I know it won’t grief the next boss fight

[lilac stag]

you should know what packs are dangerous

and be sure to have it for boss

[swift tinsel]

And ^

[frank crescent]

Wowhead guide macro section suggests you always want to shadowstrike over backstab when able. But the opener shows a backstab after the dance in the opener. Which is it?

[swift tinsel]

Shitass architects in floodgate as soon as the scaffold dies

[opal basalt]

But how do I know what packs tank pulls when they a) don’t share a route and b) randomly add mobs mid pull?

Like that’s what feels bad to me

[lilac stag]

you learn the dungeons

use nameplates to show dangerous mobs

[warm marlin]

macro section probably a bit out of date, you backstab first builder of dance at the moment

[swift tinsel]

Tbf most of the routes are just W through

Priory is left vs right side

That’s mostly it

[frank crescent]

Suspected as much. Thanks!

[lilac stag]

even then its all bigger pulls

[swift tinsel]

And they’re reliant on healer ability to make whatever route work

Ye

[opal basalt]

Okay so let’s go for the following scenario then. Tank pulls a single sentinel pack in ecodome with two adds and doesn’t seem to walk further

I say, alright let’s send CDs

And right after finishing second dance he adds like 2 small packs

Happened to me twice yday

[swift tinsel]

Primed for third dance

[warm marlin]

W flag usage already 20 seconds into the cooldown

[vale pine]

the backstab is a small optimization

you do it once every shadow dance to get extra danse macabre stacks

[lilac stag]

i dont think you understand how dance and sod come back in aoe

[opal basalt]

Maybe not

[lilac stag]

or are underestimating it

[vale pine]

with premeditaiton, so you don't lose anything

[lilac stag]

send dance, spam bp

[opal basalt]

Possibly

[lilac stag]

the dungeon is one big raid encounter

[swift tinsel]

You’re getting really high dance/Sectech use in aoe esp if they’re adding mobs to replenish the ones you’re killing

That’s kinda good lol

[opal basalt]

Oh hm okay

[swift tinsel]

Which means more coups and more ub hits

So fueling prio

[opal basalt]

Maybe I’m just thinking too much about the big blades window

And start holding dances too early

[swift tinsel]

I mean yeah blades is important

[lilac stag]

all you care about is do I have flag for the boss, 1 dance chage + sod and a second dace chage at 30 seconds or less

[swift tinsel]

But you can add a ton of dance uptime by having frequent add killing time

[fast mantle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lilac stag]

you dont need to flag immediately on pull of the boss either

[honest void]

the only thing u really lose is some first dance uptime (if ur talented)

and that's whatever

[swift tinsel]

Yeah this is something I’ve noticed people getting hung up on

Like with momma you can wait until the drones are close to dead before sending flag so your getting into nuke territory by the time the vuln starts

[lilac stag]

i think that's the only way they know the rotation, which goes back to yesterday about difficulty

[swift tinsel]

Instead of sitting on it for 30sec to a minute

[frank crescent]

I see. Thanks!

[opal basalt]

I mean it’s the way you’re taught to play the spec through guides no?

[swift tinsel]

Idk I think about sub gameplay in a weird way and work backwards from where I want to use flag

[lilac stag]

no, you're taught what the cd window is

you need to learn how to make sure you have that

[swift tinsel]

Or thinking of dance/sod cd as total time instead of charges

[lilac stag]

istead of mentally resetting each boss fight as an individual fight

when the duneon is one big boss encounter

[opal basalt]

That’s a weird way to think about a key imo

But if you say so

[swift tinsel]

Nah it’s actually really intuitive

Packs are like vuln windows

Well certain ones are

You wanna max your damage in that ‘window’ or pull

[lilac stag]

youre compartementalizing everything. you only use your true opener once ion a boss encounter. you only use it once in a key unless theres a ton of RP

[hazy breach]

Is it worth for the pack to take 30s longer just to have the boss be 10 seconds faster as an example?

[swift tinsel]

So you align your cd timings to accommodate that

[hazy breach]

Or the other way around

No you'd just do whats faster overall

[hollow spear]

The only time I'm holding flag is if I know there's an omega pull coming up and is waste half of my blade window by sending now

[hazy breach]

There are exception where mobs are so dangerous you need to kill them before X

But those are quite rare

Ye as long as you get to use all of your blades on something its usually worth sending

[honest void]

well some bosses have dmg amps and you may wanna save for them and some have mechanics that will interrupt ur CD sequence if u just send on pull

[lilac stag]

just because I have a differnt perspective, does not make me weird. you are the one seeking help. you are playing it wrong.

[honest void]

got to plan for all kinds of encounters in M+ at the end of the day

[swift tinsel]

I use mdt to plan my cd use and then adjust based on what the tank ends up doing

Works quite well

Unless it’s an omega small key you’re getting 2+ blades use between bosses

[honest void]

honestly nimble is such a god send

can full blast a prio target and still do good dmg

[runic mulch]

I planned to try Sub and intended to use my CD's on CD unless it's like the last pull before a boss and they just came off CD. In mythic plus the timer is the boss so the faster u get through trash i would assume the greater chance you have to time. Especially in some keys, the trash takes longer to kill than the bosses

[lilac stag]

i love watching 2 high health mobs take forever because the other dps dont want to send a cd at the end of it

[runic mulch]

Also even if u start a boss fight without the cd's they will come up and then u can still take advantage of your burst window

[honest void]

ara-kara trash comes to mind

[frigid light]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[limpid sage]

I’m the other dps

[opal basalt]

weird didnt mean negative for me, just weird as in that i've never been taught to think about it this way. strange might have been the better word for it, but then again english isnt my first language

[lilac stag]

see previous statment about this. people mentally struggle not having everthing reset for a boss with sub for whatever reason.

[lilac stag]

no worries. perhaps you were taught wrong 😄

[swift tinsel]

I feel like people learn it in a modular way

Opener/burst window

[wet plank]

no shot anyone serious is holding flag for a minute... absolute insanity in a key

[lilac stag]

all the dungeon videos just show boss to boss guides. never actually explaining how it's one big boss fight

[opal basalt]

nah like 30s max

[lilac stag]

you would be surprised

biggest fail for sub is not sending cds enough in keys

[opal basalt]

let me ask you another question scath

[runic mulch]

Also being new to the spec i will probably macro things together that aren't recommended but that's just to learn/get more comfortable with the spec. Plus i won't be pushing super high keys anyway i wouldn't think

[opal basalt]

i made myself a WA telling me to not burst (aka use dance/sod) 20s prior to flag coming up

[lilac stag]

makes for bad habbit that are hard to break later. just a fyi

[opal basalt]

is that fine or is that a bad habit

[hazy breach]

That sfine

[swift tinsel]

Better to just learn the right way the first time

[lilac stag]

if that helps its fine

there's a bit to track, i like my audio cues

[swift tinsel]

I have bars for each sod/dance charge so I can see totals at a quick glance with color codes

[frigid light]

sorry for asking guys maybe someone can give me an quick answer without be googline too much, why do we vanish just to get mor CP out of our Shadowstrike ability? or are there more benefits thank you in advance

[hazy breach]

Premeditation

A talent

[lilac stag]

i'm also visually impared so, noise if better for me

[swift tinsel]

Ah yeah makes sense

[lilac stag]

discord chatter can be the death of me

[swift tinsel]

I have a few audio ones

[opal basalt]

i like a max of both. went with a simple text for that one

[swift tinsel]

Like when 2pc procs and I get to 3 it tells me 3

[frank crescent]

From the wago page for Le's WA package. The package doesn't seem to include the ability/GCD tracker shown in the gif. Don't suppose anyone knows where I can get it?

[opal basalt]

thought about adding a short tts for it, but didnt wanna figure out how to do that in WAs lol

[swift tinsel]

That’s a different addon iirc

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure thats details

[opal basalt]

thats details yup

the streamer plugin iirc

[frank crescent]

Oh wow had no idea details could do that

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I think it’s cpu-heavy, one of them is

[opal basalt]

its a bit like truffigcd

just for showing ur viewers (or urself if you do vod analysis) which buttons you used

[lilac stag]

the dance timing get more intuitive the more you push it

[swift tinsel]

Maybe today is bars reintegration day

[lilac stag]

you'll learn when you went too far and then store that in memory

[swift tinsel]

It doesn’t track the buff uptimes so I’ll have to add new ones for that which idk

[runic mulch]

Why is it a bad idea to macro shadow dance with symbols of death if you want to use symbols with every shadow dance? I have a separate keybind for symbols as well but just curious. Is it just the risk of wasting a shadow dance charge?

[lilac stag]

if you're always conservative in saving you wount know what you're missing basically

[swift tinsel]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[chrome bolt]

Just switched to sub, I havent found this anywhere, maybe im looking for wrong keywords, but is Shadowstrike puting Find Weakness on intended? I cant see it in its tooltip but just tested and it does put it on. Does this only work from stealth or does it work during dance as well?

[swift tinsel]

Yep

Any time you strike

[chrome bolt]

aight im dumb

was looking for in the skills desc like bs or shuriken storm

[frigid light]

anyone has a supercharged tracking weakaura?

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

They should have it, but you also kinda dont need one

[opal basalt]

i guess i'll watch some more sub rogues do keys and see how they treat their cooldowns. that has helped me before for other classes

[swift tinsel]

Honestly it’ll help the most by doing keys

[opal basalt]

and just trying shit out? possible failing?

[swift tinsel]

You need to build up your in-game sense for it

Lmao yep welcome to adulthood

[lilac stag]

you'll find the flow if you just run keys and are willing to maybe make a mistake or two with dance charges

[opal basalt]

nah i get what you mean

[warm marlin]

if your cds and big netherprism window are up and you're walking up to a pull that is normally doubled and tank is just sitting there fighting 3 mobs

maybe a shuriken toss slips out

[runic mulch]

Whats great about this is being able to ask questions. The more you learn the more you can understand how to properly utilize cd's together and understand what guides are even trying to tell you lol

[swift tinsel]

Hey with 1hr tricks anything is possible

[lilac stag]

watching 15 keys vs 10-12 is different. overall the same but the timings for flag can be way diff

[opal basalt]

i did that and forgot i clicked off tricks before

[hazy breach]

Well theyre running towards the tank

[opal basalt]

was a funny death

[hazy breach]

So surely he pulled

Right

[swift tinsel]

Exactamundo

[warm marlin]

its funny i play an occasional 10 with one of my friends who is a classic main who tanks sometimes

[swift tinsel]

Also love when tank dies everything beelines right for where he respawns bc I’m still attacking

[lilac stag]

sub def aint a play it perfectly spec out of the box

[warm marlin]

and i pulled for him with shuriken like 3 times in a halls

and he just kept saying "HOW DO I BODY PULL THAT?"

[swift tinsel]

Body pulling is for hunters friendo

[opal basalt]

i felt like the target dummy stuff was rather simple to learn

[lilac stag]

outlaw story fabrication

[swift tinsel]

Or fotm arcane mages now apparently

[opal basalt]

buuuut execution in an actual key environment

[swift tinsel]

They’ve been bad this season

[opal basalt]

can be tricky sometimes for sure

[high eagle]

This helped me a ton. No amount of watching helped as much as getting busy in the content myself.

[lilac stag]

i meant you're not varying your cds, your just repeating 1,2,3. swap between the aoe back and go right to the boss with cds not aligned

[warm marlin]

no hes just pushing 30 unfortunately

[lilac stag]

how are you pulling with storm as outlaw

[swift tinsel]

Yeah there’s definitely something to be said about just getting the feel for how your cds work between bosses that can’t be learned from videos or streams

Once you get the hang of that your overall shoots up a ton

[opal basalt]

the sad thing is that i cannot fully commit to the rogue

because i got cucked and had to heal again to find a CE guild

[swift tinsel]

Healing is super fun tho

[lilac stag]

um, rogues are usually easy to get into guilds

there are so few of us

[opal basalt]

the one i joined had two, now one

the other rerolled fdk

[swift tinsel]

Been gearing the mistweaver this past week and loving it again

[opal basalt]

and the one is an assa onetrick i think

i told rl i could play sub on araz

he said he'll keep it in mind

mayyybeeee

[wintry dove]

I legit did this in eco-dome the other day in the 2nd boss area

[sullen hare]

My healer alt is a mw and I was in healer jail last tier but now I'm back to being sub, so hype

[opal basalt]

i swapped from mw to rsham for this tier because i said i need something new if i have to heal for another tier

and its fun indeed

but man would i just like to play dps

[lilac stag]

so look for another guild

[sullen hare]

Look on the bright side you won't have to learn how to play Windwalker on sprocketmonger like I did 🤢

[lilac stag]

pretty much is that ez. rogue had a good showing in rwf

and we dont exist inthe wild

[stoic locust]

Yeah sub rogue has been super underrepresented for so long

Kinda considering picking it back up again, though competing with the "better" specs would be annoying

[copper ravine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[late sable]

guys do i have to hold my secret technique for shadow dance and symbol?

[hazy breach]

Yesnt, moreso the other way around

but

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[cursive vapor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[stoic pier]

Does BP have a bigger gcd? It feels so slow when im rotating using it instead of eviscerate.

[sullen hare]

Nah

[hazy breach]

Only thing that doesnt have a 1 second gcd is coup

Which is 1.2s

for some reason

[lilac stag]

To fit in the SoD during dfa animation leap.

[stoic pier]

I think its the BP animation that looks slower than eviscerate then xD

[sullen hare]

Yeah but the bp animation is jazz hands

https://tenor.com/view/bh187-bring-it-on-bring-it-on-movie-spirit-fingers-gif-19285939

[stoic pier]

LOL, i dont know if I get in the jazz hypnosis when I use it, but i feel that my character stops moving/doing dmg xD

Specially when I use it combined with shadowstrike during shadow dance

[lilac stag]

I think this goes back to the wank ass animation charge shit trying to gives us “dfa lite”. It’s trash.

[gilded jungle]

I wanted to confirm something about the unyielding netherprism. I heard somewhere that it doesn’t share cd with other trinkets. But I don’t really know, so I figured I’d ask.

[hazy breach]

It does

[gilded jungle]

Figured as much

Thanks for the confirmation.

[dapper gyro]

hey guys, can't really find an answer on this, but whats the final verdict on the the belt slot, can we trust the sims? cause M track belt is higher than my DISC. Have some ppl saying to keep disc, other say otherwise

[hazy breach]

Assuming youre simming the crit power on your belt and not something silly

You can trust the sim

It just varies a bit based on class at which ilvl you replace it

[dapper gyro]

figured as much

cheers

[hazy breach]

[proven plover]

Wdym

For me the versa proc Sims higer for example

Is it not accurate

[vale pine]

he just means, you should change for the best belt power

[hazy breach]

Vers or mastery can be fine too

[proven plover]

Ok

[weary tree]

Will trinket nerf change anything? Or do we stick with antenna probably?

[vale pine]

but in the end it just comes down to your belt you compare it too

[hazy breach]

But moreso that he isnt using the lightning rod or anything

[vale pine]

just sim it, is the best way

[hazy breach]

Doesnt really change anything no

[proven plover]

Ic

[vale pine]

a heroic belt can already be better

[gloomy slate]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fair anchor]

I was thinking, for the times when a late coup hit triggers shadowcraft refund late in the gcd, cant we just press fok then evis in the spell queue window ? If the refund didnt happen then i dont think evis could be cast so fok would be cast, and if the refund happens then evis being the last spell pressed in the spell queue it would come out ?

[vale pine]

if you use coup during blades

and you don't get a refund

you storm and then coup again

if there is no blades

just use shadowstrike

[warm marlin]

no pressing evis would overwrite the queued storm

[dreamy shadow]

My guild is having worries that perma tricks could make a tank rip threat from another, is this a legit concern?

[fair anchor]

Yeah but since any hit of coup can trigger the refund its sometimes annoying to react late in the gcd

[fair anchor]

Ah shit thanks

[warm marlin]

yeah, gotta track sht and watch very closely if you're at 5sht (sometimes 3)

[fair anchor]

Guess im not bringing option selects to wow rotation 😆

[vale pine]

isn't a big concern, thread generation is not transfered as if the tank does aggro, so you should in general not impact tanking much. But you can just not use it if your RL is super concerned

[dreamy shadow]

i see thanks

[frigid light]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[stoic pier]

Whats this log webiste?

[vale pine]

warcraftlogs

^ https://www.warcraftlogs.com/

[stoic pier]

Thanks !

[cedar idol]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[gilded jungle]

I seen on a few logs outside of the opener. That some rogues were using sec tech as the first ability in dance. is that because coup is active?

[hazy breach]

No, thats just how its supposed to be played

[mossy zodiac]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[gilded jungle]

So it’s not finisher build sec tech anymore. Good to know.

[hazy breach]

Hasnt been since dragonflight

[mossy zodiac]

How the shadowcraft exactly works? There is a form to know when i will get a refound or is random?

[gilded jungle]

Well shit. Good to know.

[hazy breach]

When you have 7 or more shadow technique stacks

[spark tusk]

It has been updated for 11.2. I think the patch on the Wago page is because I updated it using a version of WA from before the patch. There was nothing new to add to it for the patch except fixes that could be done for the tier set, but those fixes did not need the patch to be implemented. So I updated it before the patch.

If there's more that is needed for sub specifically, I'm happy to hear.

[spark tusk]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/451631560827994112/1350902980614033428/ride.gif

[vale pine]

secret became the highest priority finisher in shadow dance, this followed up by coup de grace and after that evis/bp

[gilded jungle]

Thanks for the info. Some reason I was doing finisher then sec tech. Except in the opener.

[vale pine]

its not bad outside of your major cooldowns

you can do it if secret is still on cooldown for like ~12 sec

because your first evis will get secret back, so you would still have symbols on it

[gilded jungle]

Ah. Ok that’s good to know.

[shadow lance]

Btw, thanks for your stuff, ai stole a lot of your ideas/code for my package ❤️

[crystal bone]

could also do it with ~ 18 sec left with a coup i'd imagine

coup sectec coup

or does coup eat all supercharges?

since it hits 3 times

i never noticed

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitty-feline-cute-close-up-gif-17802459

[shadow lance]

I don't get what the kitten GIFs mean

But I love kitties

[vale pine]

you want to get supercharger on secret, so you want to generate enough cdr to get secret back

[crystal bone]

gotcha

[frank crescent]

I see. Thanks for the reply and your work on the WA.

[spark tusk]

it means oh right the inevitable tide of AI consuming all of our work is upon us and I'm powerless to stop it

[keen dome]

I'm going to fight the computer

[vivid cobalt]

would you ever just press symbols again after you coup for the instant buffed coup

thinking more in m+ setting

[sullen hare]

that seems like a waste of symbols to me because for one buffed coup you just cut your next dance off at the ankles

which if I was standing next to howie mandell and a room full of briefcases I would say "no deal"

[twilit phoenix]

fuck howie mandell!

actually mb he got chill in his later years

[chrome palm]

I find it common outside of blades when coup is up with dance to dance (max cp) -> coup -> symbols immediately after -> stab -> coup -> strike -> secret

[warm marlin]

holy moly messerknecht using the tech too

[chrome palm]

My goat has all the sauce

[swift tinsel]

scuffed vault we go again

[gleaming leaf]

i just switched from assa to sub and i did a +11 ara kara with 5.8m overall is that good ? i feel like i have a bit less dmg on aoe but more ST without funnel so the key is actually easier if that makes sense ? also sub playstyle is way more engaging

[warm marlin]

or myth tier pants to save a cata charge

[chrome palm]

My internet is deadge and I can’t open vault

https://tenor.com/view/cat-black-crazy-shakehead-gif-22713692

[warm marlin]

i think coup symbols bs sectec strike coup might be better

just for the sectec cdr

[shadow lance]

Not AI but I as me

Typo error T_T

[swift tinsel]

best option sadly

[short radish]

WE'RE SO FUCKING BACK

[swift tinsel]

2 pairs of heavy haste boots

[lilac stag]

What are you saving it for?

Free socket

[chrome palm]

I’m not sure because you’re burning ub and get less ff on the secret

[warm marlin]

ye just might get a cata piece from tazavesh or raid as well

[chrome palm]

Unless you get extra secret casts

[warm marlin]

so would be stuck with a piece i couldn't equip for 2 weeks

[lilac stag]

Crest discount

[chrome palm]

15 crest save with socket is pog

[short radish]

double leech trinkets

[warm marlin]

to try to get the raw sectec out

[left ledge]

prism again

[short radish]

AGAIN?????

[sullen hare]

must be nice

[short radish]

those are good mythic rolls though right

[warm marlin]

[short radish]

ring and neck all good

[left ledge]

hmmm

yeah idk if i take ring or neck or prism

technically you can just craft ring/neck

[chrome palm]

It’s a myth prism no?

[left ledge]

ye

[chrome palm]

Take it or I’ll come blow up your fucking house

[warm marlin]

do you have anyone else in your guild hunting it

[left ledge]

uh

idk tbh

our WW has one already

[vale pine]

i would take it ^^

[chrome palm]

Do you have mm in raid

[vale pine]

but well

[chrome palm]

They want it also

[left ledge]

we do have some hunters

idk if mm

[warm marlin]

i mean doesnt frac just fall over especially with new raid buff

maybe wait for reclear angle

[hazy breach]

DKs should want it

But you know

Doesnt sim highest so cant be good

[left ledge]

hmm

maybe i just take it anyways

[turbid edge]

Fuu do you know if m+ pushers are swapping to sub for all dungeons since sin nerfs?

[left ledge]

i already have the ring on hero anyways

i doubt the myth version is that much more of a dps upgrade

and im gonna craft a neck prob

was hoping for forge

[warped zodiac]

are sims showing post antenna nerf or not yet

[mossy zodiac]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[hazy breach]

Should be with nerf

But like

The nerf is irrelevant

[vale pine]

the nerf is very small

[warped zodiac]

thanks fellas. appreciate u

[mossy zodiac]

Any recommendations for 4p set? like better x and x

[lilac stag]

Avoid shoulders

[sullen hare]

for sub we skip shoulders unless it makes your 4pc

because 4pc with haste is better than 3 and cope

[lilac stag]

ummm. pacemaker has speed

[fringe palm]

because its bad anyway

[lilac stag]

i think it's a pants play but seeeeesh

the ring

[tender frost]

cant complain

[hazy breach]

Not really except on like mythic dimensius

[onyx dawn]

Dungeon slice isnt viable for Sub sims is it?

Running 1t 1min sim recommends Vers/Crit Ruby
Running 5t 5min sim recommends Mast / Crit

And I'm not sure where I should go with it tbh

[wicked urchin]

im taking gloves but lol so many trinkets

[fringe palm]

nexus king is 65-70% aswell, also even if sim says its even with double onuse, its way too valuable to have a trinket for all cds

[turbid edge]

Iunno that delve belt looking good

[hallow night]

Tough choices

[inner hawk]

lmao

[fringe palm]

thats the exact m+ choices i had last id

[hazy breach]

Idk think its way too overhyped with double on-use, you lose quite a bit of damage on your big prism burst not having a second trinket

[hallow night]

What did you go with?

[spark tusk]

glad to hear it

[fringe palm]

mythic shoulders from raid slot

i have all trinkets though

[hallow night]

I'm considering tier, going to sim everything

[fringe palm]

id go ritual forge (if you wont get it soon/have it already) > tier

[sullen oriole]

yo can anybody send me his last m+ dmg garphic pls? wanna compare some things

[fringe palm]

agreed

[edgy topaz]

hi which one, sims or lily?

[jagged rover]

I'll take it, at least I don't have to compete in raid for it

[shut ridge]

praying on the downfall of all those with mythic prism in their vaults this morning

[hallow night]

Isn't ritual forge pretty awkward with both specs being 90s specs atm?

[fringe palm]

its only for sub with double onuse or deathstalker assa. if you prio raid you will play sub most of the time

[vale pine]

you can use forge + prism

[sullen hare]

none of my pieces are particular outliers so I'll see you in two hours when the sim is done

[vale pine]

so forge allows you to stack prism longer/higher

[hallow night]

I don't see myself playing deathstalker assa at all. It's worse than sub in keys and worse than sub in raid

[spiral needle]

don't have to compete with all the real 2 min classes for the forge

[shadow lance]

The envenom bars was my fav :3

[fringe palm]

well if you only play sub, forge is a bis trinket as soon as you get prism

[flat pecan]

hmm, I don't think that's how my sims showed it, I should check that again. Haven't seen any trinket combo beat screams/prism

[hallow night]

Is double on-use meta atm?

[shadow lance]

DS assa is worse then sub in keys?

[short radish]

100% speed

[shut ridge]

gotta
go
fast

[hallow night]

DS assa is completely fine in keys, but sub can do some crazy things at the high end with prism pulls

[rare sedge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

tempting, but heroic antenna still way over mythic max pacemaker 🙁

[shadow lance]

Yes but, both are super fine and got different utilities

[fringe palm]

double onuse is basically even in sims, and having a trinket for every cd set is way to valuable for relevant content

[lilac stag]

new pants day it looks like

[shadow lance]

Where's your funnel as sub?

[hazy breach]

In ST ye

In aoe its very bad

[warm marlin]

im still not entirely convinced its worth inting your major cd sets that way

[short radish]

would you double onuse on araz?

[lilac stag]

it's on the DS assa spec tree

[short radish]

feels it lines up for burn phases well right?

[fringe palm]

its better than antenna in dungeon slice, cant be that terrible. especially if you get cds for every pull in m+

[hazy breach]

Its not?

Its like 3% behind

[shadow lance]

That's what I meant ahaha

[short radish]

yeah but you sit on your cds for longer also

[warm depot]

bruh https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1136451494955208809/1409920299096477858/Screenshot_2025-08-26_at_11.19.44_AM.png?ex=68af221a&is=68add09a&hm=eb82c88e5946f0344d3b274e6181281fe31b10521751e08920eb2575586f11d0&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1320&height=1052

[fringe palm]

then fuu didnt update sims

[lilac stag]

dont be blaming fuu

[hallow night]

You could prism at 9 stacks if you need dmg. How does that stack up in sims? I thought we were milking prism stacks on bosses and then sending 18 stacks on huge pulls.

[woeful roost]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[haughty mural]

The double on-use debate will go all season long i fear

[devout quarry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty mural]

Meanwhile me sitting still on HoC

[vale pine]

it will^^

[short radish]

just get the pvp badge

[vale pine]

F, should probably just farm a lilly

[fringe palm]

idk what content youre doing, if mythic pieces are a big thing for you because you raid hc for example id highly consider that

[hallow night]

I don't mind double on-use. I just want to make sure that using prism at 9 isn't significantly worse than only using at 18.

[swift tinsel]

its fine

[hazy breach]

On a target dummy theyre basically equal

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[haughty mural]

I will - depending on vault .. haven’t had time to do pvp for now

[short radish]

@hazy breach thoughts on double on use for forgeweaver? since it's both adds and also burn

[gloomy slate]

@vale pine why is crafted neck in sub bis list over other things?

i got mega medallion in vault

[swift tinsel]

bis lists are bait but required for guides

there's many slots that have a few options in them that are almost identical

[gloomy slate]

they arent bait when planning with all the options at hand

[swift tinsel]

that's what sims are for

[lilac stag]

theyre bait

[swift tinsel]

like specifically

[vale pine]

neck, belt, bracers, ring all should be about equal

[warm depot]

almost every other slot is covered

[gloomy slate]

so just for embellish?

[vale pine]

yes

[fringe palm]

in the end its a lot of feelycraft, cant back it up with numbers. maybe im wrong in how much better i consider it. in raid you need double onuse to have "good" cds for every relevant timing, in m+ not having a cd for first pull which is usual huge+lust also feels terrible

[vale pine]

or well also for slots you did not get a good upgrade so far

so it depends on your gear

[shadow lance]

I agree with that

200%

[pastel bramble]

guys i can never reach 2nd secret technique

in 1st sd

[vale pine]

you don't need to

[pastel bramble]

am i sht ?

[vale pine]

you use secret once per dance

[short radish]

no but you dont have enough sht

[vale pine]

so its fine

if you only use it once

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

its only really doable if you have a shaman

[crystal perch]

Use Shuriken Storm on 3 or more targets with Flawless Form up. Can some1 explain this to me? if there are 6 adds and i dont hjave flawless form up do I backstab instead or what?

[hazy breach]

Well dungeons is far more than just the first pull

And doing 10-15% less damage on every pull that isnt the one where you use forge feels bad too

[vale pine]

basically, a passive trinket does increase your damage always

so prism + passive is rly good even if you don't stack up prism as high as with prism + forge

[shadow lance]

Passive trinket is 10-15% on it's own?

That much?

[lilac stag]

prism isnt stacking while youre out of combat so you're not going to have 9/18 stacks right on 1:30/3. it can have some awkward interactions with forge

[chrome palm]

You can also just stack prism with a passive

[lilac stag]

and if you're now holding CDs for stacks, youre losing CD casts likely

[chrome palm]

For higher burst than double on use

[clever delta]

kush play double on use so must be the way

[lilac stag]

clearly

in the end play what you want

[fringe palm]

i think in raid its not a discussion tbh, m+ is different

[lilac stag]

it's your gametime

[clever delta]

i dont think in my keys it matter

[lilac stag]

if you feel OP with 2x on use. rock it

[clever delta]

im just happy that im both prism and forge so i gonna use them

[hazy breach]

Yes, but there is some minor crit on forge which is probably worth like 1-2%

But more importantly, if you are not using your cds literally on cd the double on-use turns super scuffed

[scenic oxide]

anyone an example of a macro to juggle the 2 trinkets?

[hazy breach]

Like ive seen casual hold his forge for like 4:30 because he couldnt send cds immediately (as the pack was close to dead etc)

And at that point why even bother

[bitter halo]

Guys, does shadow strike need to be on the stealth bar or it’s ok to be cast from a normal bar?

[short aurora]

You Just cant press it when not in stealth

I dont see the problem

[shadow lance]

He doesn't want to use stealthbar

I bet

[short aurora]

I mean thats cursed

But it works

[bitter halo]

Is there a difference?

[shadow lance]

Not really

My stealth bar is the same that normal one

You can use a marco for it

[sleek musk]

is antenna still BiS after nerfs?

[shadow lance]

I'm on phone but should be
/cast [stance:1] Shadowstrike; Backstab

[bitter halo]

Thanks

[frank crescent]

#showtooltip
/cast [stance:1][stance:2] Shadowstrike; Backstab
Stealth and dance are different stances

Also what's the benefit of using a stealth bar?

[haughty mural]

Fair point

[bitter halo]

I just have both BS and SS on the normal bar just separately

[haughty mural]

I have only sigil as my passive though

[shadow lance]

Not sure dance and stealth are different stance

[vagrant fulcrum]

I think the only real argument for 2x on use in keys is just getting through bottleneck pulls right?

im fairly sure in pugs passive is better

[hazy breach]

Well for that passive would be better

As your big prism pop would be noticeably bigger

Than if you were using double on-use

[frank crescent]

I just retested and they are. Stance 1 is stealth, 2 is dance.

[hazy breach]

And you can always make sure you get prism on the big scary pull

[warm marlin]

90s prism + passive is just more damage than forge

on that burst window

[gentle pebble]

does anyone have a cold blood + sec tec macro. mine doesnt seem to be using cold blood

[swift tinsel]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[shadow lance]

I need to check my macro cuz my dances/bs macro shows bs either in stealth and dance

[pulsar hemlock]

Not the sexiest myth dagger, but I'll take it

[wheat sentinel]

How bad is it to not have either on use raid trink as sub?

[swift tinsel]

do you have any m+ on-use trinkets

[wheat sentinel]

I have the lily

[swift tinsel]

bc ideally you have at least one

then you're fine

[wheat sentinel]

alrighty

[swift tinsel]

prism is better but lily is okay in the meantime

[lilac stag]

prism is bae

[wheat sentinel]

i want it 🙁

[hazy ice]

is cb + st macro working ?

for me its not

[swift tinsel]

praying for one in raid tonight

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[hazy ice]

ty

[hazy ice]

first option lol

[swift tinsel]

I'm sending a bug report a day until they fix that

[lilac stag]

i'm sure i'll get to make a 3rd sectech meme at some point

[hollow python]

in vault got myth lily which when max upgraded and with 2x catalyzing my hero items in bags for the 4pc results in +15.5% dmg, same exact damage amp from taking myth chest + catalyze + max upgrade instead of lily... either way is a bis slot (hero raider and m+10'er) and +% damage is exactly the same but myth lily is less likely to be obtained again so probably the better pick... am i thinking this right? =l

[snow girder]

Does nether prism usually hit max stacks in 90 seconds?

[swift tinsel]

180

[sturdy socket]

boots really simd less then the ring ;/

[shadow lance]

https://tenor.com/view/brain-explosion-gif-24686375

[swift tinsel]

do your rings suck

[frank crescent]

I'll be curious to see what you find. I could be wrong but when I change my macro to only stance 1 or 2, it only shows shadowstrike in stealth but not dance or vice versa. I guess it could be a tooltip display thing...

[sturdy socket]

yea it hass shit ton of haste one it

ring has avoidance on it also

[shadow lance]

I prolly got a stealth:0 instead of stance, I'm just back home, I'll go heck

[shadow lance]

I would go ring cuz I only miss it and already have the boots

Yes, it was pure flexing

[sturdy socket]

how big were the boots for you?

[snow girder]

kind of interesting, it seems like it was designed to be double on use friendly then

[sturdy socket]

how much more does it do overall for you?

[swift tinsel]

it was previously 2:30 so not really

[shadow lance]

1 % 6/6 hc

Ring is only 0.5% 6/6 hc

[swift tinsel]

it was designed to be flexible on when you use it, the double on-use is tangential

[snow girder]

fits sub perfectly

cool trinket

[swift tinsel]

yeah its a really neat concept

[frank crescent]

Guys if I'm not going to be mythic raiding, is it worth to craft two weapons? Been a while since I played rogue and idk how important the off-hand is these days.

[sturdy socket]

on the sims it says boots are 1.5% compared to the ring which is 2.5%

[swift tinsel]

and I agree very thematic for sub especially

[snow girder]

i hope they keep making trinkets like that in the future

not gonna lie besides the bugs, blizz really cooked this season

[white tapir]

wait, is the antenna trinket jus that much better than anything, even when the trinket is only heroic

[shadow lance]

Your ring stats must be scuffed

[hazy breach]

Prism is the best trinket by far

Then the best trinket for the second slot is forge or antenna

[hallow night]

Is the sim using double on-use correctly for sub? It's simming worse than I expected

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tXLJBm3T1asA1yTcaUG3UR (assa ST)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vLR8wKDDFsYLLNnJP1pv7Y (sub with netherprism (I don't have prism yet))
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tF3Sxp1w4PP8iYawwAdYWd (sub with no prism)

710 ritual forge simming 33k dps behind pacemaker (myth max)

[hazy breach]

Sim again by using latest or nightly instead of weekly

[gleaming leaf]

would anyone be able to go through an m+ log and give me some pointers if i link it ?

[mental kettle]

i came here to say

sub is acc rly fun

has it always been this fun

[gleaming leaf]

i recently switched to sub and i'm sure i can do many things way better

[shadow lance]

Yeah, you're right, stance:0 is not stealth

But my macro should just be
#showtooltip
/cast [stance:0] backstab; shadowstrike

That why i go SS on stealth and dance

[timid forum]

Quick question about Shadow Dance. Do I double dance during Blades and outside of Blades only with SoD+ST?

[high eagle]

I think I used a macro like that in the past but, since danse macabre needing BS, I think I swapped to separating the binds always for both in and out of stealth.

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[frank crescent]

Ahh I see. You've just done it the other way around. Glad that's sorted.

[swift tinsel]

you time your dance/symbols use outside of blades around sectech

[queen vigil]

I think it’s better now, less combo point vomit compared to some past versions, also it has some pretty cool dmg windows with trickster

[hazy breach]

Its been playing pretty much the same since 0.5 patch when they removed dust

[shadow lance]

Triple dances for big damages

More seriously, yeh, double dance during blades

Then dance when SecTech and Sod up

[hallow night]

Looks like I'll be taking pacemaker. I can just get a mythic helmet from 1st boss of raid eventually and more helmets will be in vault. Heroic forge is simming too low to be competitive it seems.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tXLJBm3T1asA1yTcaUG3UR (Sub no prism)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tF3Sxp1w4PP8iYawwAdYWd (sub with prism (don't have prism yet))

It's like 100k dps behind the best set up without prism, 33k dps behind the best set up with prism.

[timid forum]

So I could triple for blades? Gonna give it a go

[ornate heron]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[frail kindle]

https://gyazo.com/779612e64ca99c73a3e84ee871d4a46f pog

[woeful roost]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[granite hinge]

Why It isnt recommended to use Shadow dance with symbols?

Macroed togheter i mean

[ornate heron]

because you'll activate this

and you want to supercharge your sec tec

if you mash them together you cant guarantee it everytime?

[granite hinge]

Ok ok

[ornate heron]

im not 100% sure, fuu probably knows more

[vale pine]

you might delay your symbols cast in your 90 sec cooldowns, and there is the chance to use symbols without dance

[hallow night]

wait a fuckin second

[shy hull]

Why am i doing more AoE dmg spamming evis than black powder

[vale pine]

probably because you forgot to use evis for coup when using bp

[ornate heron]

when would you use symbols without dance?

[swift tinsel]

second dance in blades

can also send a symbols+sectech between second and third flag

[hallow night]

I guess if there's a lot of combat downtime in your key and you're at 3 stacks of symbols and pooling dances for 90s cds. You could send a symbol + sec tec

as long as you'll have everything for sblades

[ornate heron]

tyty, also... do you EVER coup outside of dance?

[hallow night]

happens to me in low keys where everything dies too fast to farm cdr

[ornate heron]

if you have a coup proc. but no dance charges.. do you jsut sit on it?

[hazy breach]

no, just send

[hallow night]

just use it, but make sure they're fazed

[vale pine]

in theory, when you can generate enough cdr on secret to have it for 90 sec but not high enough charges of shadow dance. in reality you likely wouldn't

[ornate heron]

tyty

damn teh rogue discord is op..

LOL

[austere tangle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[ornate heron]

jpc you eyeballing sub or assa ? LOL

[trail bison]

is this the case for all 3 specs i never knew about this

[hazy breach]

Well it depends

[austere tangle]

SUB

this thing is bis ya?

+1

[swift tinsel]

a man of culture

[hazy breach]

If the person responsible for the sim has pushed an update in the last couple of days it wont be included in weekly

[vale pine]

latest can include bugs, but is in general safe to use

weeklies get rebuild every week so changes from latest will be put into weekly the next reset always

[ornate heron]

without this talent im finding my first dance being weird

where my symbols doesnt cover the duration of my first dance

and if i press symbols to refresh, im not supercharging the upcoming sectec

[alpine wraith]

you press symbols to supercharge sec tech

[swift tinsel]

inev owns

[ornate heron]

do i just let the last few seconds of the first dance by symbolless?

[alpine wraith]

no to refresh them

[frail kindle]

i think you just play inev lol

[alpine wraith]

yo have your priorities a bit wrong there

[ornate heron]

well i know i have to supercharge the sec tec i was just wondering if we had to have the shadowdance covered in its entirety was all

[warm marlin]

that is the downside of pv

[lucid jackal]

I didn't even know it was possible for a vault to be this bad

[vale pine]

the belt is okay?

[frail kindle]

my vault last week was pretty bad too

but rip

[vale pine]

but

[lucid jackal]

Thats not a belt

those are both necks

[shadow lance]

It's wrist no?

[swift tinsel]

and bracers

yeah that's a

certainly a vault of all time

[shadow lance]

Looks like my last week vault

[swift tinsel]

looks like mine but with a belt and the bad logic gate ring lol

[lucid jackal]

This game is so fucking annoying man

[vale pine]

this is funny btw

[lucid jackal]

Its literally every tier

[sullen oriole]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

We get 0 loot on reclear, I get the worst vaults of all time

Like what the fuck is this dogshit man

[vale pine]

okay thats rip

[crystal bone]

where is the bad luck algorithm

like they have in diablo

[vale pine]

i remember you having some absurd luck before, so dont think its every tier

[lucid jackal]

My vaults are literally always bad

[swift tinsel]

I used my luck weeks 1 and 2 for tier now I'm gonna be in trinket jail for a month

[alpine wraith]

i guess you could cata the gloves

but glove tier is literally 2nd boss

so idk