subtlety

[final granite]

how does that work in raid? isnt it only for m+ when you get out of combat?

[young roost]

was gonna seemd odd

[lilac stag]

I’m actually a bit torn. I think prism actually makes the spec more enjoyable than the 4pc, but both good.

[swift tinsel]

Honestly I’d take prism over 4pc

[lilac stag]

Yea

[swift tinsel]

It fits the theme of flexible burst windows to a T

[lilac stag]

Mmhm

[swift tinsel]

You can choose when to send

[keen dome]

Prism is just a really fun thing to play around, yeah.

[swift tinsel]

That to me is sub as it gets

[mental kettle]

+7 Eco dome i was farming lilly practicing sub

[swift tinsel]

4pc is cool, honestly I like the 2pc more

[mental kettle]

so like most giga scuffed rotation eu

[keen dome]

Bake blades into dance. Make Prism a cooldown. Add the tier to the trickster tree.

[swift tinsel]

Bigger UB hits

More often

[mental kettle]

dont ask

[final granite]

Or is there any tech to proc it mid pull?

[terse wolf]

looking through what the sim is doing, wouldnt it be better to save flag a few more seconds?

[hollow spear]

What sim setting did you use?

[terse wolf]

or is it building up mastery for the big hit

[terse wolf]

dummy 2min

[hollow spear]

Yeah not sure if that's any good

[astral axle]

there is no tech to get it to reset during a boss fight but the gain you get from it even in that first dance is better than most alternatives

[hollow spear]

It starts yeeting out everything it has in the tank in the end

[lilac stag]

I got prism before 4pc and my enjoyment 📈

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I’m still in prism waiting room and seeing the double UB hits has been a joy

[terse wolf]

oh okay lol

[swift tinsel]

4pc double coups cool too

[hollow spear]

Just follow the guide

[swift tinsel]

But I could honestly take or leave

[terse wolf]

i use sims to know how to maintain my rotation after opener ended , even though the sim tells me not to do this hehe

[hollow spear]

new 4pc is orgasmic idk

[final granite]

aight, ty.

[hollow spear]

you're better off looking at the rotation of an actual player

[terse wolf]

yes, will need to work on the prio list as well

[swift tinsel]

The extra flawless is pretty goated tho

[hollow spear]

I get that TFD confuses people. It reads like it would be shit in a long encounter. What they don't know is that the alternatives are even shittier.

[swift tinsel]

Make it every minute and a half in combat in addition to its current implementation

[inland path]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

Ez

[astral axle]

i love how long that first dance is

[swift tinsel]

Or first dance in blades is extended

[astral axle]

big fun

[swift tinsel]

Can tweak it a little bit to accommodate

[keen dome]

Could tie it to vanish

[umbral fulcrum]

how many stacks of danse macabre am i supposed to get from the opener including backstab? is it 5 or 6

[cursive vapor]

guys whats the best thing I could craft with that? wanted to craft a dagger but im waitin til I got enough gilded for 720 dagger

[vale pine]

you get it once, but wm is weak enough to make tfd good even with only one activation

[steel jolt]

MH dagger is typically the biggest upgrade you can get but you can sim to be sure. 60 gilded is only 3-4 10+ keys

[final granite]

aight, ty. was mostly cuz progging DH boss rn, so was wondering whats best there.

ty

[cursive vapor]

yea almost got 60 but in m+ im veery slow

[jagged rover]

I swapped out of TFD for weaponmaster on Araz, but thats mostly because first dance is sent by itself without cds (and the fight is long enough). Only fight I've ran without it so far though

[cursive spear]

Yo, playing assa but thinking about picking up sub. Is sub also viable in m+?

[swift tinsel]

Hell yeah

Sub owns m+

Unironically very strong

All three specs doing well

[grizzled sage]

Hey if someone can take a look 😄
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1409335589672718346

[dense mountain]

@vale pine question for you. If I have coup ready and im going into flag+SB. I should just send SS > sectec > SS> coup > storm > coup . And just munch 1 proc of UB?

[mental kettle]

does anyone like the fuckass Fazed mechanic

[hazy breach]

Idk its never something i think about

[chrome palm]

They should remove it

And tie all benefits/requirements into flawless form

[mental kettle]

giga based

[hazy breach]

Unironically though

You dont play around it in any way

[mental kettle]

thought you needed to make sure its up before sending sectec

[hazy breach]

Nah you just made that up

[jagged rover]

most of those random passive things I just never think about. They are consistent enough that if you are doing your rotation things will be active and you just play like you always do

[mental kettle]

prob got something confused in the guide

[chrome palm]

He’s thinking of coup

[hazy breach]

it needs to up when you coup, but it will be if youre playing the rotation

[olive shoal]

do we use eviscerate on 7 targets outside shadowdance with flawless form ? and then as builder shuriken storm with no dance

[chrome palm]

I mean sometimes a target dies after you proc coup

[hazy breach]

4 or more

for bp

[chrome palm]

And then you do need to worry about fazed

It’s a bad mechanic

[jagged rover]

people definitely overthink sub and cost themselves dps. No thinking, just hit buttons

[mental kettle]

i dont like the 20s cd

but w/e

[chrome palm]

Trickster has a little bit too much going on I think

Fazed is the easy thing to trim

Makes target swapping smoother also

[acoustic matrix]

Is it fine to macro Backstab to Shadowdance for dance macabre ?

[chrome palm]

Having find weakness and fazed is really stupid

[mental kettle]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[chrome palm]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[acoustic matrix]

Aight sweet ty man

A simple macro does it at once though

[chrome palm]

Nope

[acoustic matrix]

Without tea

I just did it in game

[chrome palm]

You have to press it twice because it’s fucky like that

[acoustic matrix]

Oh it bugs like sometimes ?

Cause on target dummies it works

[chrome palm]

No it’s just how dance works

[frozen elm]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[chrome palm]

You used to be able to do dance + strike macros or whatever

But they made it so these things don’t work anymore

Uh if you have dance and backstab on separate lines then you could maybe do it

But I think that would be really clunky

[acoustic matrix]

I mean it's working for me right now ig

I dont' have it on seperate bars

Oh separate lines in the macro

yeah that's what I did

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Backstab

[frozen elm]

quick question, when not in cd window do i rupture multiple adds or just keep bp/evi?

[west tide]

bro i really thought sub was using charged bolt

[steel jolt]

No one is. It’s a bug in WCL that always shows charged bolt

[west tide]

lmfaoo thats so funny

[acoustic matrix]

If the adds are not going to die fast you spread

[hollow spear]

Yo @hazy breach, is the sample rotation in quick sim representative of how the sim uses pvp + prism or do I have to go into the html report?

[kind bluff]

So what is stunning me on plexus Sentinel? On mythic*

[hazy breach]

You should be able to see it in the quick sim, but i suspect theres more optimal ways to handle that trinket

[alpine wraith]

for pvp and prism it si krangled still

[hazy breach]

Just every extra trinket interaction has to be hardcoded

[alpine wraith]

it is only a bit better than a same ilvl passive but not by much

it is kinda like this

[shrewd monolith]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dense mountain]

do we use ShadowBlades before or after sectec cast now?

[alpine wraith]

both work

[hollow spear]

It sends pvp on pull, at 1:30 and then just uses prism afterwards every 1:30

[alpine wraith]

ideally after but before is ok too

[alpine wraith]

yea it is krangled

[fallow moss]

this might be a dumb question , but is there a cap for Mastery? or do we just want as much as we can?

[cunning notch]

do we play around macabre stacks ?

[alpine wraith]

you need to hardcode the 20s one and 1 min etc

[hollow spear]

Did you try that Hacha?

[alpine wraith]

i had it somewhere

hmm let me check

[dense mountain]

does the first hit of sectec not get dmg amped by ShadowBlades or something? trying to understand why we delay till just after casting

[alpine wraith]

it does but it is very weak

[hollow spear]

The first hit does the least damage and by casting it after you basically get another global within blades

[graceful perch]

hey guys, do we use sb after or before sectec?

[hollow spear]

if you suck at timing a global, just use it before

[alpine wraith]

ideally after but before is almost the same

[dense mountain]

okay so basically you get an extra evis at the end inside SB that you wouldnt get otherwise. thank makes sense ty lads

[alpine wraith]

evis or strike sometimes

depends on how many coups

you need to blades at most after 0.6 on pressing sec tech

[dense mountain]

yee honestly it feels normal for me to press after so was just trying to understand the logic so that helps tyty

[terse wolf]

should i do this if symbols is already up ?

[swift tinsel]

if your finisher after that evisc is sectech you press symbols there

you want to supercharge sectech

[fallen crescent]

Only if symbols is in pandemic window

[chrome lake]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[fallen crescent]

And supercharge sectec

[terse wolf]

hmmm i see

[hollow spear]

I don't really care about symbols pandemic tbh

[terse wolf]

learning sub is taking me longer than i thought

[swift tinsel]

same I just play around supercharge

with inev pandemic doesn't mean as much

[hollow spear]

if I see that sectec is up as 2nd finisher, I jus send

[swift tinsel]

ye the other parts of sod besides the charged cp are whatever to me

the sht stacking part is nice for double coup tho with 4pc

lil extra insurance with the increased shadowcraft uptime

[swift hollow]

is tier a big dps increase?

[swift tinsel]

yes

get it asap

[swift hollow]

Are we talking 5%? 20%?

[swift tinsel]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[swift hollow]

there is a command for everything hot damn

[bleak night]

!findmydad

[terse wolf]

WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS THAT SOUND LINK

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[candid raven]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift hollow]

!findmilk

[terse wolf]

profile says you already might have some

[vale pine]

secret is highest prio in dance, yes

[terse wolf]

fuu do you have a youtube?

[vale pine]

i do, but mostly lack time to do content. I rly need to set aside some time in the future for some videos

(besides having fairly underpowered hardware which makes recording and video editing painful)

[dusk stone]

ah nvm found it

[vale pine]

👍

[hoary moat]

"Use Black Powder only if Flawless Form is NOT up or with 3 or more targets." can soeone explain this to me.

so if theres 3 or more targets, you are always BPing outside of shadow dance, regardless of whether flawless form is up or not

but if there's one target, you're BPing if Flawless form is NOT up?

[vale pine]

basically

[hoary moat]

but doesnt Evisc proc Flawless form? so why would you want to avoid proccing it?

[vale pine]

flawless form makes evis cleave to near targets

so you want to use BP earlier

but you can just use it on 4+ always

and cba

[hoary moat]

ok got it

so if its two target and flawless form is not up, you're BPing

but if its two target and flawless form IS up, you're Evisc

[vale pine]

yes

[hoary moat]

ok thanks, appreciate it

the guide is so great, thanks for making it @vale pine

[cunning notch]

^^^^^forreaaaallll

[vale pine]

i tried to make it good, but there are always ways to improve things

thanks

[swift tinsel]

could use a bittttt more purple imo

but that's sub in general

[cunning notch]

more daggers and flames

[dusk stone]

so by pure accident last night i got to try deathstalker, i was swapping back from sin and i loaded into the key and somehow i ended up on the bad hero sepc

[alpine wraith]

big purple

[dusk stone]

and holy is it bad

[winter shoal]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

yep its the real doodybutt spec

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[vale pine]

^ this is also relevant if you end up playing fatebound assa

[swift tinsel]

like actively tries to get you to not play it

[dusk stone]

what made it worse is we had another sub rogue in the key, doing legit half

[vale pine]

ye

[swift tinsel]

I'll do a full reclear as DS one day

[vale pine]

deathstalker is a tough sell atm

[swift tinsel]

just to claim 100's on every fight as the only DS sub rogue on the planet

[clever delta]

guys on forge

im doing tank dmg in intermssion

thats like nromal right

[swift tinsel]

welcome to sub rogue

[clever delta]

cos i have only one dance there

[serene notch]

https://tenor.com/view/think-about-it-use-your-brain-use-the-brain-think-brain-gif-17677779115818009596

[clever delta]

and some sub rogues dont even use the dance there

[dusk stone]

it was like sheesh, what happened

why is it this bad, i didnt even think i did particularly bad that key

the funnel is really sick though

[kind bluff]

There is an intermission? You mean the coffee break phase? Yea you just get up and go make a cup and stretch

[swift tinsel]

it just doesn't play well as a hero tree and its woefully undertuned

[dusk stone]

prio dies really fast

[lucid jackal]

yes thats normal

[vale pine]

so you want to perform worse than this on fractilus?

[swift tinsel]

and you can't cancelaura darkest night anymore so the aoe is even worse

[swift tinsel]

oh ye of little faith

[acoustic matrix]

Is there a trackable buff for tier set window ig ? (coup de grace)

[swift tinsel]

I will shatter that floor to the depths

[hazy breach]

Just tracking coup stacks will show it

[swift tinsel]

actually ds gains a teeny bit on fractilus bc of gloomblade lol

I use 'gains' very, very loosely there

[dusk stone]

sin is also fairly braindead as a spec

was getting maybe a mil less than my sub parses in the 10 keys or so i tried

[swift tinsel]

I'll also record voice while playing bc it'll be me cursing about how bad sod consuming mark feels when it stutters the whole priority system

[dusk stone]

what i did notice is the funnel on DS is crazy

[swift tinsel]

imagine if DN worked on BP

or made evisc cleave

[dusk stone]

like i'm not sure what purpose that exactly serves, but in your burst window any prio target dies really fast

[swift tinsel]

singular focus would be dope if the rest of the tree wasn't utter poop soup

[dusk stone]

i was playing unoptimally too ofc for it and still the prio kinda nuts

[swift tinsel]

it just feels bad to have to babysit mark even more with sod consuming it

[dusk stone]

honestly i didnt notice that much

[acoustic matrix]

Aight thanks man

[dusk stone]

strike triggers mark right

[swift tinsel]

so you have to pay extra attention to when you're supercharging so you don't accidentally brick sectech bc you tried pulling sectech cd with evisc and proc darkest night

yeah

[dusk stone]

it even procs it

[swift tinsel]

so mark management isn't nearly as bad as with sin

[acoustic matrix]

Can we use CdG at whatever CP or better to have it at 6+ ?

[dusk stone]

so you have good uptime with mark, theres ofc the dumb shit with evis not being able to be used

[swift tinsel]

mark uptime is an afterthought for sub

bc of dance

[dusk stone]

if it was tuned better it would be really good though was what i saw

[swift tinsel]

sin struggles bc its only ambush from stealth or in subterfuge

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah without subterfuge if you missclick your first spell (not ambush) whole fight is rip

[swift tinsel]

mark/dn just introduces friction that trickster doesn't so it feels way worse by comparison

[dusk stone]

one thing i also dont like about sin is you don't get speed shroud

[swift tinsel]

checkmate

ripbozo

[dusk stone]

i was also having WA issues with DN on sin as well, i stripped everything out of luxthos WA but DN and it wouldn't show DN

[swift tinsel]

it sucks though that ds is so bad bc its our only shot at actual funnel

[haughty mural]

@vale pine did you add pvp badge to your top gear string ?

sorry for ping

[vale pine]

i did not, you think its relevant ?

[swift tinsel]

weird you can literally just have one aura that tracks mark and dn and have it show dn icon/cd when the buff is present

[vale pine]

i think i didn't

let me check

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

that's what I use and making it was very easy

[dusk stone]

i was looking for a solo WA that does that

[alpine wraith]

for pvp badge you would need to hardcore uses kinda like forge

otherwise it wastes lots of casts

[dusk stone]

also i am not sold on gambit being a sin key

[vale pine]

hmm

[swift tinsel]

idk I like it more as sub

[alpine wraith]

it is a sin key if you pull things onto bosses

but sub does fine

[swift tinsel]

first boss can nuke adds in a heartbeat

[dusk stone]

i like all the keys more as sub but aside from the first two or 3 pulls its just kinda w/e

[swift tinsel]

last boss is mostly st

[dusk stone]

that too

[swift tinsel]

insta-melt assassins

second boss if you tank hits most/all adds its pure st

first boss is aids if they pull the lightning bois

so much area denial

fucking hate those mobs

[dusk stone]

yeah i was trying to get my tank to figure out how to path them to where it wasnt aids

[swift tinsel]

you gotta kite weird

and the room being kinda oddly shaped makes it interesting

you can kinda tuck them into the side alcoves for the circle thing

that they do

[young roost]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[swift tinsel]

but that makes the beam kinda aids but if people have targeted indicators they can pre-move

or if they're ranged just ignore the hard part of it

[sleek tide]

When do you BP vs when do you evis? is BP 3+

[swift tinsel]

my name

[terse wolf]

do we pick "Electric Current" for belt?

[swift tinsel]

crit or vers power

[umbral void]

any1 got a WA for when my combo points reset on finisher?

making a noise or some

[swift tinsel]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

refund sound trigger

[sleek tide]

is it worth using another generator if at 5 cp

or just sending evis or bp on 5

[swift tinsel]

it sucks but you gotta build to 6+

[alpine wraith]

strike is not a bad global

[acoustic matrix]

Guys do we need to be at 6+ to send Coup de Grace ? Cause it says as if at 5 CP

[glacial hinge]

can i use HoC or lili until i have ritual? or no point?

(have prisM)

[solemn creek]

Did u sim?

[glacial hinge]

apl accounts to that?

[solemn creek]

Pretty sure any passiv beat hoc if u have prism

There are quite a few available

In case of doubt. Follow the sim

Adjust it to your fight lenght

[swift tinsel]

can send coup at lower cp if its the 2nd one from 4pc

sending with any cp is better than letting the buff fall off without casting

[alpine wraith]

no other on uses that work with prism are only forge and pvp trink

the badge being way weaker than foge

[swift tinsel]

god I can't wait to replace my pvp badge with prism

[acoustic matrix]

So I should still prio sending at 6+ and if it's about to fall off send at whatever ?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[crystal perch]

If there is a pack with 6 mobs but i dont ha e flawless form up do i need to use backstab untill i get flawless form up?

[swift tinsel]

6+ is ideal

[acoustic matrix]

Aight ty

[swift tinsel]

and you should send all finishers at 6+ except for 2nd coup in that specific scenario

but ideally all

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah yeah just that one was unclear due to the "as if at 5CP"

[swift tinsel]

ye that makes up for some of the lost cp bc evisc scales linearly with cp spent

so it kinda doesn't matter

bc coup is just 3 eviscerates in a trenchcoat

[crystal perch]

And do i hold coup for shadow dance?

[swift tinsel]

no

only hold coup for flag

when flag has 20sec or less left on cd

[crystal bone]

would u guys run something like this for taz hm deathless bosses?

[crystal perch]

Ahh so i just send if it has like 40 sec left

[crystal bone]

or pickup inev?

[quaint lodge]

What causes this

is this a "trinket 13" gets used before "trinket 14" kind of deal?

[swift tinsel]

for sure, yeah

if you have coup ready and flag has 20sec or left you just backstab to not cap energy

[vale pine]

the sim does check both slots

[swift tinsel]

assuming your sectech and dances are going to be ready for 2x symbols/dance/sectech in flag

[vale pine]

so each slot is a "individual" chombination

even if its the same trinket combination

[vagrant fulcrum]

@vale pine thanks for the guidance, araz died and I didn't embarass the sub playerbase thankfully

[steel zinc]

just run raid st?

idk

[steady lark]

Go back to sin channel

[vale pine]

nicu!!

[crystal bone]

yea i wasnt sure where some bosses were 2 target cleave

[vagrant fulcrum]

on frac now so ye, cya there

[steel zinc]

I argue st sub is omega bad and gets carried by damage amps and that sub can do in full st 95% of its aoe potential

[acoustic matrix]

Am I losing a lot of DPS if I dance only in Flag or I need to learn to game it ?

[stray plank]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vagrant fulcrum]

sub st is carried by sin bugs denying funnel

[vale pine]

sub is not omega bad, but we rely on strong burst and fight deisgn to compete

[steel zinc]

on pure st its pretty bad

[lucid jackal]

Well yeah, fight design shapes how good specs are

[steel zinc]

like pure

[next lotus]

is sub still king of funnel dmg? or has it changed, if so what changed it?

[olive shoal]

do u use eviscerate without shadow dance on7 ish targets when u have flawless form ?

[steel zinc]

100%

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel Dawn def not a sub dungeon

[steel zinc]

it is

dawn is so good for sub

😄

[lilac stag]

my friend sarcasm

[steel zinc]

I know

just wanted to say its really good

[lilac stag]

good lord, prism is such a dopamine hit

[half dragon]

does anyone have a reminder to pre use symbols when ressing after a wipe?

[vale pine]

its fun

[crystal bone]

cheat death or elusiveness for deathless attempt

hmm boss dependant i guess

[lilac stag]

you can change talents

can you not? used to be able to in HM

[shy beacon]

Do we backstab in shadow dance? and what for? I see it a lot

[crystal bone]

aye u can

[vale pine]

you can

[swift tinsel]

yeah one sec

[vale pine]

yes, for danse macabre stacks

it is a small optimization

[lost coral]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

https://wago.io/1N-_8fnRf

[next lotus]

is sub still king of funnel dmg? or has it changed, if so what changed it?

[swift tinsel]

zul changed that a while ago

we do no funnel now

paying for sins of the past

[half dragon]

ty

[swift tinsel]

🫡

[lucid jackal]

No funnel but good prio

[rain kernel]

what flask do we use in m+ as sub?

[swift tinsel]

I use vers

that or alch chaos are probs fine

[west needle]

guyz im sure the question have been asked before but.. with a single on-use trinket, do we seend prism every shadow blades or every 3 min ? In m+

[plush roost]

Alch, verse,.mast fine

[swift tinsel]

if you're stingy with potion chaos loses a bit

[plush roost]

Depends on your stat spread

[solemn creek]

Personaly i think if u die. Elusivness wont save u. But cheat death could.

[swift tinsel]

cheat security blanket is strong

you take elusiveness to survive specific things

[plush roost]

Agree nothing in hm will kill you so fast cheat doesnt save u

Cheat very nice

[solemn creek]

This isnt a + 18 where u need to feint every aoe to live

Its not that hard on damage intake

[swift tinsel]

ye feint is so useful on its own

chances are your healer (if they're alive and awake) will keep you alive in situations where elusiveness wouldn't make that much of a difference

vs a random oneshot or mistake that cheat can cover

[acoustic matrix]

The guide does not mention using Coup de grace outside of shadowdance in AOE, is it intended ?

[swift tinsel]

you don't really use backstab in aoe

so you don't really generate ub/coups

but if you happen to have one in aoe outside dance you'd still send it

[acoustic matrix]

Oh yeah makes sense

[swift tinsel]

you're mostly casting storm and maintaining ruptures

[acoustic matrix]

Cause cut to the chase generates procs too no ?

[swift tinsel]

but you cycle into dances more in aoe bc of the increased combo point expenditure

[acoustic matrix]

Sometimes you get a few stacks in dance and then some procs outside

[swift tinsel]

cut to the chase is how you maintain your slice and dice

[crystal bone]

kk yea hardmode seems equiv to like a +11?

cheat death prob fine the whole way

[dusk stone]

elusive is better for keys i find

[dusk stone]

were already kinda squishy

not having extra built in dr makes pugging worse imo

[swift tinsel]

ah yeah that doesn't really play into aoe gameplay much

[swift tinsel]

trickster unironically very tanky

[valid yoke]

Is anyone available to potentially do a log review for me? Trying to see if I have any fundamental rotation problems and would like a second opinion 🙂

!log

[terse wolf]

does anyone know which of these spell ids is the real coupe

[limpid sage]

Get idTip addon

Saves so much time

[hazy breach]

Depends on what youre gonna use it for

[terse wolf]

aight will check

[swift tinsel]

but the lack of backstabbing in aoe means likely getting resets you sit on

[terse wolf]

small weakaura icon to pop when coupe pops

[hazy breach]

For tracking the stacks youre looking for "Escalating Blade"

Not coup

[swift tinsel]

if its for 4pc just use the spell name

its the same for eb stacking and 4pc proc

[dusk stone]

it is i often check damage taken and im always lowest one

but still

[terse wolf]

used the premade weakaura thing and it selected one that doenst work so thats why im trying to manually do it

[hazy breach]

Escalating blade

[acoustic matrix]

Use Combo Point builder with the following priority:
Use Shuriken Storm on 3 or more targets with Flawless Form up.
Use Backstab.

I think that's why I was generating it a lot. Am I misundersting this ? cause that makes me use backstab a lot in aoe

[valid yoke]

Also a potentially stupid question, I see some sub rogues critting for 15m plus on a single sectec hit on logs but mine never really reach past 8 or 9m - I have netherprism and 706 gear with 4p, 720 crafted weap as well so I feel like the gap shouldn't be so massive

[dusk stone]

the second sectec is cb'd

[terse wolf]

ohh it cant be tracked out of this

[hazy breach]

What do you mean

[swift tinsel]

I assure you it can

[hazy breach]

If you track this, you will see the stacks and if coup is available

[terse wolf]

im not good with WAs but checking Luxthos it seems like the way he shows coupe is through 4 stacks of Escalating blade

[swift tinsel]

ah yeah we don't really worry about maintaining flawless form outside of dance

[terse wolf]

yes

[swift tinsel]

in aoe you're sending more dances though because you're consuming more combo points than in single target and that's where flawless form matters more

and between strike sectech and coup you'll have plenty of stacks and buff uptime

[turbid apex]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lethal yew]

So I'm trying to understand the flow of sub in aoe. I've got the main opener down more or less. The packs you pull between your flag windows, do you typically spend 1 symbols charge per pack, kinda like shiv for sin? Then with cdr it seems like you can get dance and sectec back pretty regularly

[valid yoke]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[swift tinsel]

yeah you kinda get a feel for how many symbols/dance/sectechs you can send between packs because the cdr is a bit variable

[late ermine]

anyone have a double on use weakaura that says to hold the 2nd trinket when blades has 20s or less left on cd?

[swift tinsel]

I usually look at when the next big pack or boss is coming up and mentally time how far out and base my symbols use around that

[atomic arrow]

!coup

[swift tinsel]

because that's a fixed cd unlike dance and sectech

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

You would rotate forge and prism on every shadow blades

[late ermine]

im using lily

same logic?

[hazy breach]

With what

[late ermine]

lily is 1:30 cd

[hazy breach]

Because you likely shouldnt be using two on-uses if its not exactly those two i listed

[late ermine]

i have no other trinket

i was using like a 680 timewalkikng trinket before this

[hazy breach]

You should be using lily with your blades ye

[surreal knoll]

My Lily + Prism sims higher on 4 mins than Prism + Forge but at 5 minutes and beyond its Forge + Prism

(Single target)

[late ermine]

yeah i didnt realize you woudl hold lily for blades and alternate i thought you would send more often with dance because its a shorter cd

[hazy breach]

Antenna likely sims even higher

[late ermine]

but ig i am incorrect

[surreal knoll]

One day i will get antenna...one day ;w;

[late ermine]

gl on ur vault

[hazy breach]

again idk what youre using as your other trinket, but sub isnt "hardlocked" into playing two on-uses

They played two on-uses in rwf because those are the two good trinkets

And it works fine

But with other trinkets you generally wouldnt play double on-use

As antenna is unplayable on mythic dimensius

[haughty mural]

The one downside of prism is you opener
So I think that’s what people want to do double on use

[hazy breach]

Ye but the upside later on makes it worthwhile

As the on-use is massively stronger than anything else in the game

Unless the fight is like 1 minute long ofc

[dusk stone]

big momma on sub is better than it use to be

the whole flag when adds are at half hp strat seems to work

holding 15mil there for a bit

[surreal knoll]

Does anyone know if the raidbots sim holds prism for max stacks or does it just send it at mid stacks?

[late ermine]

i have prism and i have lily

[dusk stone]

two on use is only worth with prism and forge is what i hear

[late ermine]

yeah i know in a vacuum thats true but say you had no other trinkets

[dusk stone]

pacemaker and other passives give like 7k base agility

[late ermine]

lily has a lot of agi as well

if i had a passive id use it

hopefully i just get antenna on tues and be done with it

[dusk stone]

lilly and pacemaker is not bad yeah

you want prism and passive if you don't have forge

and no 2x on use otherwise afaik

[late ermine]

yeah i have prism and lily and nothing else

so just trying to optimise uses of lily

[dusk stone]

i mean you dont have choices

go run floodgate

[late ermine]

bro ive run floodgate like 30 times

lol

just takes time to get what u want sometimes

one day

[dusk stone]

i had to put up with that bs for one of my rings, its cancer

[hexed sluice]

Hear me out. Prism and pvp trinket.

[hazy breach]

With that combo you would use lily at 0 and 90, then prism at 180 and then lily again at 270

But its a bit oof

Holding lily for 3 minutes at times

[fallen crescent]

Isnt that the same concept for forge where u are holding for 3 min as well

[hazy breach]

Well yeah

[fallen crescent]

Becuase it’s 0 forge, 1.5 nothing, 3 prism, 4.5 forge

[hazy breach]

But holding a 90s trinket for an extra 90s feels worse than holding a 120s trinket for 60 extra seconds

[fallen crescent]

Ig but ultimately without cds they are not great, it is what it is. My lily and prism sim higher than with a passive but just barely i don’t have a forge or antenna

Also holding forge sounds way worse considering the amount of main stat it gives

[graceful portal]

Hey i see some ppl keeping the old belt from last patch even if they are 705+ ilvl. Is it worth ?

[west needle]

guyz im sure the question have been asked before but.. with a single on-use trinket, do we seend prism every shadow blades or every 3 min ? In m+

[proven plover]

I think we need a prism command

[frigid light]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[west needle]

i swear i even looked the pins !

😂

[swift tinsel]

Depends on what belt drops they’ve gotten, iirc for me I replace with a ~707-710 belt

We’re not locked to it all season like some specs are

Replace fairly early

[graceful portal]

because i have one with 704 and mastery vers but i'm watching shindig stream and he is playing the old belt

so idk if i should stick with the old

[swift tinsel]

You should sim yourself ideally

Bc your gear and drops aren’t the same as anyone else’s

That’ll give you a better representation

[graceful portal]

yeah when i simm the 704 one is better but i don't have all the upgrade on the old one and idk which upgrade to run

[hazy breach]

Crit one

[swift tinsel]

^

[graceful portal]

okok tysm i'll try that

anyway doesnt look like a big difference as i thought

thakns guys 🙂

[swift tinsel]

Ye it’s not like circes where the mastery was kinda big

The belt was just a nice lil bump

[graceful portal]

okok thanks
I hope i get a good trinket on the weekly chest fora real dps upgarde ahah

[swift tinsel]

Dude same

Inventing new religions to pray to for a prism lol

[graceful portal]

yeah yeah ahahah

[swift tinsel]

Really hoping we start mythic soon and get to fract

[graceful portal]

curretly with the HOA and floodgate trinket

[swift tinsel]

I’ve got PvP badge and soleah’s rn

[graceful portal]

no trinket loot on 3 raid difficulty in 2 weeks in a row

[agile mural]

how are we bug wise this season? anything impressive or blizz started fixing rogue?

[swift tinsel]

No lily or pacemaker drops yet

[swift tinsel]

We got more added than fixed

[graceful portal]

yeha i saw some ppl playing pvp trinket idk if i should run it instead of lily/HoA trinket

[frigid light]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[swift tinsel]

PvP one is easy to farm

And 1min cd means you don’t have to think about it any harder than just Macro to Blades

[sacred magnet]

do you leave a pool if i insta shadowstep in soulbinder mythic?

[lilac stag]

We killed bosses pleaxus & soulbinder this week. I’m curious to see if loom actually counts as 2nd boss and that loot is (hopefully) on the vault table.

[swift tinsel]

HoA trinket feels bad

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I’m curious about that too since it’s not linear

[graceful portal]

yeah but i think i need more crit so i tend to prefer it rather than lilly

[swift tinsel]

Or if they count the boss order as listed in the dungeon journal

[hazy breach]

If youve killed soulbinder you can get antenna in your vault

[graceful portal]

but maybe i'm wrong

[lilac stag]

Step to a DK and blame them.

[swift tinsel]

Ah interesting

[sacred magnet]

Kekw

[swift tinsel]

Makes sense I suppose

[lilac stag]

Is that how you got yours?

[hazy breach]

No i killed loom

[lilac stag]

Ah

[hazy breach]

But some in my guild didnt and still got it

Or well, loot from loom

[lilac stag]

Nice

[graceful portal]

@swift tinsel thanks a lot for your answers helped me sm

[swift tinsel]

PvP trinket has passive crit which is nice

[hazy breach]

Im presuming ill be able to get soul hunter loot this week, even though weve only killed fractilus

[swift tinsel]

Happy to help!

[graceful portal]

yeah yeah i'll farm it tomorrow and sim it

[glad patrol]

guys, im blind, i checked all pins, as far as I remember there was a pin with recommended WA packs for rogue, could some1 link it?
pleaseee, thanks in advance

[swift tinsel]

Only takes about an hour-ish and it’s passive flying around

Pretty chill

!wa

[glad patrol]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[glad patrol]

ty!

[swift tinsel]

Lame

Lol jk I planned that

[graceful portal]

I used to be a pvp players starting full pve this season as first time rogue so should be fine with that

[swift tinsel]

Ah nice yeah it’s pretty chill

[warm marlin]

is there a target count at which you can shuriken storm between coups outside of blades btw?

[swift tinsel]

Helping people help themselves

[warm marlin]

im assuming one exists

[swift tinsel]

7?

[hazy breach]

Its neutral at 6 or more

But its never a gain

In sims

[swift tinsel]

Makes sense

[warm marlin]

interesting

[swift tinsel]

Since you only wanna storm once

[hazy breach]

Ye you dont wanna storm more than once

[swift tinsel]

That’s what I’ve been doing in aoe and it’s clean

[hazy breach]

Any other ideas for aoe related things to check in sims? Ive looked over a couple of things and have some stuff already

None of which really impact how we play, just making the bot do less silly things

[lilac stag]

never spread rupture and just bp.

[hazy breach]

With replicating thats not it

[lilac stag]

How bad is it?

[hazy breach]

Not that bad

But at that point you'd just not spec replicating instead

And then its fine

[lilac stag]

In weekly 10s it feels like a waste

[warm marlin]

i dont look much at aoe since i normally play outlaw in keys instead

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/shame-bell-game-of-thrones-walk-of-atonement-cersei-lannister-gif-16635977892557113898

[swift tinsel]

I legit only cast rupture twice on gather and once after flag

[native zodiac]

@clever delta did 7.05 on soulhunters in the end, the last cd set after the frontal intermission is so fucked

[swift tinsel]

I cba more than that

[warm marlin]

my own apl thing actually has all aoe conditions and spells taken out since its easier to read

[swift tinsel]

Lmao based

[hazy breach]

[lilac stag]

Time to drop replicating.

[swift tinsel]

I might honestly

[warm marlin]

does sim dance without symbols ever?

[clever delta]

we did not kill forge this week 😄 0.7% best pull and tank clipped boss with add immune 😄

[swift tinsel]

Two lieutenants/big mobs and flag+rupture big boi

[warm marlin]

as far as i know it doesnt

[lilac stag]

I requests a BP role and Prism role from Fuu.

[swift tinsel]

Idk what I’d put that point into

[hazy breach]

Besides the last few seconds no

[swift tinsel]

Maybe finality

[warm marlin]

in keys the extra cdr has let me use a dance where i would otherwise do a raw sectec

and still have my dances for flag

[lilac stag]

rotten + finality gaming

[swift tinsel]

Idr what build I’m playing atm

[hazy breach]

Ye

[swift tinsel]

I’m pretty sure I dropped rotten

[warm marlin]

its a bit cursed using dance without symbols tho

[swift tinsel]

Kinda wanna go PE but I have 30% crit natty

[lilac stag]

go back to outlaw traitor

[hazy breach]

Not with nado

[swift tinsel]

I’ll probs sim later

[frigid prawn]

Can I not use wound poison and instant poison together? 😄

[hazy breach]

[hazy breach]

You cannot

[lilac stag]

I dropped it. Fuck that shit

[warm marlin]

also the storm between coups thing probably doesnt work great with rotten a lot since it would be your 3rd builder normally

[swift tinsel]

It’s just the SF portion of BP that gets buffed by finality right not just every other?

Brain foggy atm

[hazy breach]

No it wouldnt

[warm marlin]

from my own tests its essentially neutral to use with disorienting up right between sectec and coup instead, which would naturally consume the rotten charge

might make rotten look better in sims

[olive yarrow]

hello, is there a WA to see the Shadow Technique, im using Luxthos WA and it doesnt include one

[lilac stag]

This is why you toss between coups.

[hazy breach]

Like youre gonna get one refund

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I dropped rotten earlier this week and I don’t miss it

When playing around

[hazy breach]

Its either between sectech and coup or between coup and coup

[swift tinsel]

Also I’m back on cb train

[hazy breach]

So you storm the one where you dont get refund

[native zodiac]

gg

[hazy breach]

Feels really fluid

Atleast when ive played it

[warm marlin]

yeah exactly the robot would only do between the coups atm right

maybe it wont move rotten sim dps

[mighty citrus]

okay add and bossdmg was fine this night on forge, but i get called out for not doing enough on the arcane collectors 😄 i safe one dance here but this is basically it. any tips for that?

[hazy breach]

Oh yeah you mean like that ye

[warm marlin]

but backstab sectec storm coup coup seems good for rottenmaxxing

[swift tinsel]

Pretty sure I do that in aoe sometimes

Esp if I see the impending sht refund

Or you coup to pull Sectech then storm coup

[warm marlin]

you can also storm with disorienting to not waste escalating stacks outside of dance in st (for symbols sectecs or raw sectecs) that was also mostly neutral

you dont really symbols sectec raw in keys tho

[swift tinsel]

Yea I throw those out in aoe

I’m still getting a bit of a feel for Sectech double coup interplay

And havent robotted that part yet

[mental kettle]

love going into a key and finding out everyone in my comp is a haste fucker and my soleah is sad

[bitter halo]

Should I macro BS and shadow strike together?

[sleek tide]

For m+ is thistle tea build better or cold blood ?

[swift tinsel]

Slightly more aoe for tea

[lilac stag]

Beta opt in is out. FYI

[swift tinsel]

Slightly more st for cb

[olive shoal]

how strong is the 4p ?

[swift tinsel]

Orbital strike

Goldeneye laser

[hazy breach]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[bitter halo]

Or best to have separate keybinds?

[mighty citrus]

seperate is good

but you can use this macro

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[frail path]

I do both, separate and macro, it's nice

[sharp lake]

I put SS in the same position as BS on my stealth bar but I do have a separate bind for BS on the stealth bar also

You would need a macro if you want to Shadow Strike out of Shadowmeld though

[bitter halo]

I have both abilities just on my normal bar, is that wrong?

[civic tusk]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[winter ice]

Are yall getting 3 techs in ur flag windows

[hazy breach]

Sometimes, but not something you get all the time

Depends on shaman, bl and/or how many coup stacks you have going into it

[iron plover]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[iron plover]

Do we coup in aoe?

[cursive vapor]

yes

[tepid trellis]

yes

[runic root]

Yea

[sleek tide]

During dance is it always shadow strike over shuriken storm? In aoe

[iron plover]

dang really

[cursive vapor]

yes

[runic root]

Trickster makes you always do AoE basically

[cursive vapor]

ofc man its our hero tree!

[iron plover]

With 4 set that’ll be a lot of coups :o

[cursive vapor]

thats where fun begins

[iron plover]

Can’t wait

[tepid trellis]

get to have a metric fuck ton

of flawless form stacks

[iron plover]

big bongo m+ dps

Maybe I can finally catch up with the disgusting dk damage

[spice jewel]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[blazing yew]

in M+, how do you use Tea? Bind it with a CD or?

[hazy breach]

check the message literally above yours

[blazing yew]

yeah, i just came in blazing keyboard buttons

[tepid trellis]

almost as good as the people that do bot commands

right under the same command

those are the real shit

[formal helm]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[formal helm]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[cursive vapor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[formal helm]

Like that @tepid trellis ?

[cursive vapor]

sry i needed that again

[formal helm]

It's fine

[slender totem]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[bronze dawn]

heyo any good video guides to get into sub ?

[astral axle]

ye https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW3-gwCQK6o&pp=ygUVc3Vid2F5IHRyYWluaW5nIHZpZGVv

[spice matrix]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[astral axle]

but jokes aside the written guides are really very comprehensive at wowhead icyveins and method dot gg. Authors are in this channel. those are your best source of info ngl

[bronze dawn]

aight

[lilac stag]

Or you know !ban

[formal helm]

[still sundial]

I feel like shindigs guide on YT from last tier was really good and still relevant

[formal helm]

Susssy

[high dirge]

fresh 80, +2 key -- this spread look right?

[olive yarrow]

that one and this season Rogue changes video to follow up, some things have changed

[slate marlin]

wasnt boosting advertisement forbidden in lfg? i see like 10 groups advertising lol

[dusty totem]

When is double on use good? is it worth it to use eg. prism + Lily?

[bleak night]

blizzard does a ban wave and they all just make new accounts and do it again

nothing changes

time is a circle

[keen patrol]

in aoe we do shuriken storm into blackpowder or we use shadowstrike into blackpowder?

[bleak night]

if you can strike you strike

unless you're doing the storm in between coups

[cursive vapor]

in dance strike, outside dance storm

[crystal atlas]

What do yall macro your on use trinket too?

[gilded lodge]

forgemasters to shadowblades, netherprism to it's own trinket keybind

[crystal atlas]

Currently got Priory T_T

[gilded lodge]

put it on shblades and get to farming a lily at least XD

[bleak night]

cursed

[cursive vapor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[bleak night]

go get lily or pvp trinket

[keen patrol]

so also for aoe?

[cursive vapor]

yes

[keen patrol]

and then spend on black powder or coup proc

[cursive vapor]

if you can coup you coup

[gilded lodge]

or sec tech

[bleak night]

or eviscerate for prio

[keen patrol]

but we dont needd to shuriken for find weakness?

in dance window

[astral axle]

Only if you take the rotten in aoe

[keen patrol]

the rotten?>

[slate marlin]

ye u can storm to apply find weakness but then u delay coup, which is very big dmg

[astral axle]

Otherwise we storm between coups during blades so we don’t waste progress toward our next pair of coups

[keen patrol]

why spread ruptueres?

[astral axle]

I’ll give you one guess

[lilac stag]

Rip Antenna

[keen patrol]

energy

[warm depot]

rip antenna

[lilac stag]

This ain’t assa

[astral axle]

They deal enough damage to care about and we don’t have much else to do between cooldowns

[keen patrol]

what is the reason then

[slate marlin]

you rupture out of cds bc 1) all finishers out of dance dont do dmg, at all. 2) rupture dmg is dynamic, so if u then use cds all ruptures dmg is also increased

so basicaly bc u deal no dmg out of cds so might as well do something that will increase your output during cds

[frail kindle]

antenna nerf

maybe double on use is actually the play

[hazy breach]

Its mostly a token nerf

[winter ice]

hoa sack back on the menu

[slate marlin]

its 3%

[lucid jackal]

The DH Trinket still exists too

That trinket is very good

[pallid hollow]

why does my coldblood macro not work? it's the secret technique one, it says spell not learned

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[pallid hollow]

ok

fml then

[slate marlin]

if u mean cosmic hunt i would guess its not good for m+

[lucid jackal]

But yeah antenna is still insane lol

[tiny sierra]

why we should stop spending combo points like 10s before flag + shadow blades?

i think there was a bot command for it but i forgot what it was

[lucid jackal]

To build up shadow techniques and coup

[honest basin]

3% doesn't change shit antenna is like 10% ahead of everything else on my sims 🤪

[tiny sierra]

so we just keep back stabbing for like 10s

then we send everything

[honest basin]

Yuh

[lucid jackal]

correct

[winter ice]

Only do this if you have dance charges ready

[honest basin]

Backstab soup

[tiny sierra]

ok

ty boys

[mighty zephyr]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[burnt panther]

Playing with the tee it's easy to rotate in m+ but playing with cold blood it's incredible, I'm always without energy.

[hazy breach]

You can also do some silly stuff like dancing around if youre not in dance and then pick it up right as you dance

Not on mythic dimensius p3 ofc, but in general

[sullen hare]

did they take my boy out back and shoot him?

[hazy breach]

They did 3% less crit on it, which is like the smallest amount of nerf they could possibly do

[lucid jackal]

They made it probably like 1% worse

[sullen hare]

oh

well that's not so bad I don't even have one yet

[hazy breach]

Way less than 1%

[lucid jackal]

Ya lol

[hazy breach]

More like 0.2 or 0.3

[grave parcel]

Are we using shadowstrike during dance as our builder in AOE as long as our flawless form is up? or are we using shuriken storm?

[sullen hare]

unfortunately no stonks for my ticking sack trinket

[grave parcel]

slightly confused by fuu's guide and his prio

[tiny sierra]

shadostrike and shuriken storm between coups i think

[grave parcel]

so if no blades during dance its shadowstrike regardless of target count?

and if we have blades during dance is SS?

[sullen hare]

only when 4pc is up

so coup -> no cp = shuriken storm -> coup
also coup -> if full cp -> coup

when shadowblades is active*

otherwise when dancing it's shadow strike city

[grave parcel]

okay got it

[grave parcel]

so were not worried about keeping find weakness applied with Shuriken storm on BP targerts

oh that makes sense, i dont have 4 piece yet but i see now

[sullen hare]

nope

[sullen hare]

correct it's used as a builder when necessary and as an optimization when sb is up*. you just send the second coup if your points refilled inbetween

[grave parcel]

So during dance its shadow strike all day unless we are building the extra CP for the second coupe then we use shuriken storm

[narrow night]

ye wanted to add to your explanation

[grave parcel]

thanks for clearing that up i was a little confused but i understand now

so we always blackpowder above 4 targets unless we have coup

and with under 3 targets our finisher becomes eviserate

[sullen hare]

that's my understanding

[hazy breach]

Yep

[grave parcel]

during dance its always strike unelss we need CP for coup that doesn't auto fill from shadowcraft

[hazy breach]

You can use eviscerate on higher target counts too if you dont care much about the damage to the adds since it does slightly more damage to the maintarget

[grave parcel]

got it

[wheat lake]

do we change our trinkets with the new buff/nerfs or we still rocking netherprism + antenna?

[split vale]

is sub a funnel spec now?

[mossy zodiac]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tiny sierra]

is there an ideal number of stored CPs i should aim before using flag + shadowblades?

[alpine wraith]

antenna got almost no nerf basically

[lilac stag]

Keep grubby dev paws off my prism.

[hazy breach]

No, thats assa

[hazy breach]

Not really

[split vale]

Understood thank you, needed to settle a debate I will take your words as gospel

[tiny sierra]

The more the best?

Ok

[lilac stag]

Really hard to funeral when you’re slamming BP

[somber cipher]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[frosty trout]

With this talent build, when do i ever press Black powder in AOE?

[lilac stag]

4+

[frosty trout]

Isnt that what nimble fury is for?

[lilac stag]

You should read a guide

[hazy breach]

4 or more is BP

[frosty trout]

sorry for the stupid questions 😛 but why is nimble fury top damage on all the top sub rogues if im still using BP?

[hazy breach]

Because it doesnt only cleave eviscerate

It also cleaves coup, unseen blade, shadowstrikes and your autos

[hallow night]

Anyone here utilize secondary conditional macros? I think the spec could really benefit from it after playing it.

Like on frost DK your globals on pillar need to be super tight so they recommend keybinding pillar to a few key abilities in a SECOND set of key binds that you press conditionally (aka ready to pillar).

[oak grotto]

Do we use Coup in AoE? Or only ST

[hallow night]

I don't see a downside to binding shadow dance to backstab as long as you have both of them still bound elsewhere.

[hazy breach]

Well you have to use more binds

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[lucid jackal]

Personally, I've never seen the benefit of having macros like this because yeah, It's just adding keybinds

[hazy breach]

You can use this if you want to, but like

[astral axle]

did someone release a video saying sub is meta or something or is it just ppl seeing that sub was in RWF

[hazy breach]

It doesnt do anything except add more binds

[hallow night]

Mostly so you never lose globals in super tight burst windows

[hazy breach]

If there was good ways of macroing spells that wouldnt detract from your performance we would recommend them

[hallow night]

even 0.2 second delay between pressing 2 binds could cause you to lose a global

[lucid jackal]

I don't lose globals anyway

[terse wolf]

guys i need some sub povs

[lucid jackal]

This spec doesn't scale with haste, 1 second GCD is fairly slow to me

It's not like a burst window in lust or w.e

[hazy breach]

We love coup being 1.2s gcd

[dense mountain]

i just wish shadow dance pandemics like symbols. sometimes the timing is so awkward

[terse wolf]

any? youtube or something idk

[lucid jackal]

Of what

[terse wolf]

M+ povs

[lilac stag]

Can I say it…. FRICTION

[dense mountain]

shindigg is playing sub on twitch in keys right now go check him out

[terse wolf]

is that the only content creator for sub

[lapis hatch]

No lol

[lucid jackal]

I think casualaddict is playuing it a bunch

[shrewd lantern]

Most rogue players just play whatever is good

[lilac stag]

All 3 are good

[sullen hare]

sub had a good finish to the raid so people saw yellow and a dave icon on the meters. I bet content creators probably released videos too

[hallow night]

Is there any reason that having this as a second bind for sec tec (for sblade opener) would cause problems?

[shrewd lantern]

Though streaming is alot of work

for almost 0 gain

[sullen hare]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[astral axle]

[hallow night]

I understand why that's recommended, because you don't want people replacing keybinds with macros that conditionally have to be used apart

but when I'm in conditions where I'm pressing those 3 buttons together anyways is there a problem with that macro?

[shrewd lantern]

more binds for nothing

1 sec gcd isnt that fast like Guy said

[sullen hare]

well generally speaking when off-gcd casts like symbols or shadow blades get used in a macro like that following an ability that's on the GCD they tend to not work

so the symbols probably wouldn't fire

[hallow night]

I'm not asking that. I'm asking if it breaks anything in the talents or game engine

Ok that's the answer I needed ty

[sullen hare]

no it just hurts your dps

[next otter]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[shrewd lantern]

When people macro off gcd abilities and on gcd

then press macro mid global

[sullen loom]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sullen hare]

that too

[sullen hare]

sub isn't even very piano you just gotta press the buttons separately

[oak grotto]

Is CB far behind Tea?

[raven sage]

my damage done sources are fine for m+?

[sullen hare]

raid st uses cb still, m+ uses tea. cb is probably behind in m+ but trust me if you give tea a try you probably won't hate it. you don't even need to babysit it

[autumn anvil]

got used to tea it is very nice

[shrewd lantern]

[sullen hare]

[shrewd lantern]

Just play raid build with finality swapped for rotten

[raven sage]

i think thats the talent im play in m+xD

its fun

[sleek glade]

what dps overall is optimal with 700ilvl 2 set but 20% haste?

[raven sage]

why 20% haste?

[sleek glade]

since my items sucks xD

[raven sage]

xDD

[sacred yacht]

Are we spreading out our tea uses or just macro’ing it to shadow dance? What’s our stance on that?

[sullen hare]

perfectly optimal? whatever the raidbots sim result says

[oak grotto]

I've played Tea a lot, but I prefer CB, feels better

[hybrid compass]

i watched casuals mythic araz, could anyone tell me why he holds his flag and sb on the start until the ghost spawn and not on pull?

[sullen hare]

as long as your fundamentals are good you need to pick up a 4pc at some point and it'll go up regardless

[hazy breach]

Youre gonna hold it anyway for the damage amp later

For like 30s

So might aswell send cds on the adds

[hybrid compass]

i see

i've just been sending them off cd honestly most of the time but I guess thats better

[jagged rover]

its also lines you up for the rest of the fight. 2nd cd usage is on the add set before pillars, you get everything back for the burn

started prog on it last night and it feels really good doing that hold, though we didn't make it through pillars clean yet

[hybrid compass]

yeah i havent really started raiding mythic and as a sub too but thats good to know honestly will keep that in mind thanks guys

[rustic mortar]

I'm srsly having a blast as sub