oh yeah that one, i pointed that out, does he do it a second time?
#subtlety
chrome fern
chrome fern
yeah fair,
barren haven
!wa
wicked joltBOT
fallen depot
gotcha the 2nd sectec in cds do we need to rupture prior too
or is it good to send with a back stab
barren lance
I’m just leveling but damn first dungeon yesterday and the bear tank did so much more dps than I at all times pretty much. Not much of a rotation to do yet ofc and crappy items even for my low level. So help inspire me so I don’t swap out of rogue and sub right away 😄
What are the best things about playing sub?
short radish
gotcha the 2nd sectec in cds do we need to rupture prior too
tbh it's more about using a finisher between the flag press and dance
so can be evis if your rupture will last long enough
i always just send rupture though
because im monkey and sometimes rupture ru ns out
short radish
I’m just leveling but damn first dungeon yesterday and the bear tank did so much...
just levelling dungeon things
get used to that
best part about sub is doing big damage on demand
worst part of sub is not doing big damage outside those moments
but either way
nothing matters when levelling
just enjoy levelling
barren lance
worst part of sub is not doing big damage outside those moments
I’ve gotten the impression that maybe I won’t get to shine on sub before being in some mid-level m+ or like raid bosses, is it like that? That it requires quite a bit of hp and proper pulls to get use for its damage potential?
maiden oar
I’ve gotten the impression that maybe I won’t get to shine on sub before being i...
if no one else in your group is doing damage you can eat up an entire pull all by yourself still even in low keys
but sub kinda doesnt come together until youre done leveling
short radish
nothing really comes together until youre done levelling and get gear and tier
short radish
I’ve gotten the impression that maybe I won’t get to shine on sub before being i...
sub does have a bit of a learning curve
but good thing there are also 2 other rogue specs that can be played
but again again
nothing matters in the levelling process
other than having fun
rocky ocean
leveling a rogus is 💀
barren lance
if no one else in your group is doing damage you can eat up an entire pull all b...
I guess with small pulls in low difficulty I’ll need 15% of my burst for one pack, or even 5%, and then I’ll be on cooldown for seven packs 😂 sometimes it’s painful not getting up to that demanding level where you need the potential…
barren lance
sub does have a bit of a learning curve
I don’t have much time to play, but I spend my whole workdays rehearsing ramps and rotations in my head, planning out raid encounters etc, so I’m here for the learning 😄 Just gotta find that target dummy time too…
short radish
what level are you?
barren lance
Bah, 22, playing with wife and other friends so no rush
barren lance
Except I want to get to the fun parts of sub
random comet
i turned off damage numbers and it took me half a key to realise it was the best thing ever
barren lance
Yeah I suppose, figured it could be a good tool for checking out what my abilities do 🙂
Haha alright maybe
vagrant thorn
just turn off damage meters
blasphemy!! you need to assert superiority over your friends
haughty saddle
is rupture spreading a priority?
solemn sonnet
only when tank is grouping and outside cds
short radish
nothing wrong with that, you can look at what your abilities do and try and practice
but for example
you don't get a lot of what your end game talent stuff is
which defines the build
eg secret technique isn't gettable till level 29
flagellation which is our main source of burst damage isnt until like level 60
chrome fern
levelling rogue has to be the worst class to level
short radish
you can't really practice driving a car with 1 wheel, no brakes and an exhaust pipe
chrome fern
you just don't have abilities that are required till so far in
vagrant thorn
just level entirely in dungeons :p
maiden oar
sub without shadowcraft is so much less fun
chrome fern
no energy regen, no increased total energy, you just sit there pressing backstab like a monkey
modest river
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
chrome fern
you dont get dance till something like lkevel 30 iirc
short radish
blasphemy!! you need to assert superiority over your friends
not when you're playing with both hands and legs tied behind your back
barren lance
no energy regen, no increased total energy, you just sit there pressing backstab...
Where does the energy regen come from? Been so frustrated with my backstab ………. Eviscerate ……….. backstab …….. tempo…
short radish
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
short radish
rogue is probably one of the worst levelling specs
but don't worry it gets better once you reach max level and get gear
(nobody tell him)
chrome fern
your talent trees enable your energy, things like bonus energy when symbols, or when you dance
barren lance
rogue is probably one of the worst levelling specs
I never got to max with rogue...
barren lance
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you...
That’s very enlightening, I understand the point of the +energy cooldowns now… I had been searching for some passive regeneration
barren lance
(nobody tell him)
It’s tough in delves and such sometimes, or like when you’re new?
The tea is out of meta atm? That’s energy stuff too isn’t it…
short radish
yeah
sub rogue is one of those specs though
when you are doing damage
energy isnt a concern
when youre not doing damage
energy also isnt a concern
chrome fern
talents really enable you in cd's, kinda to the point where you feel like you have infinite energy
short radish
because youre not doing damage
barren lance
Well it does sound like a really cool spec
short radish
we have one of the highest burst damages in the game
that isnt affected by bloodlust
barren lance
Sub does match my need for learning and practice, complexity, at least…
rocky ocean
that isnt affected by bloodlust
but is affected by shaman 💀
chrome fern
crit/mastery bloodlust when
rocky ocean
they should add talent that converts haste into bp damage
frees them some time buffing it themselves
scenic plover
is shuriken toss a button thats actually used?
chrome fern
probs by the one button thing, assassin has poisoned knife in there
rocky ocean
is shuriken toss a button thats actually used?
it procs prism
scenic plover
prism?
chrome fern
lol, the trinket, but if you needing shuriken toss to proc it, means you sitting outta melee for 10s, and got bigger problems
void needle
When you physically can't hit the boss sometimes I'll throw a couple, more cope than actually useful lmao
dusk stone
is shuriken toss a button thats actually used?
i use it to punish m+ tanks who decide pulling 3 mobs at a time with burst specs in group
void needle
^
scenic plover
right now i got it bound on q but if its not really used i might just ditch it
lucid jackal
Only useful for world quests
void needle
Having some sort of ranged is nice for tagging mobs
But usefulness in keys and raid is pretty nonexistent
chrome fern
nah send it in dance for macabre stack
😄
inb4 midnight tier set makes that a thing
lucid jackal
The last time shuriken toss was put into our rotation was in BFA, and it was an undertuned azerite trait u didnt take, and then got reworked in the first minor patch of the expansion
void needle
Make it bounce across mobs like crazy and deal insane damage, maybe instead of a little shuriken throw a glaive or something
scenic plover
Make it bounce across mobs like crazy and deal insane damage, maybe instead of a...
and call it glaive maybe?
:)
chrome fern
Aldrachi trickster, new hero tlaent
scenic plover
also maybe give rogue double jump and eye beam
void needle
I already have double jump
I play dracthyr
Maybe they should make a whole raid boss about all three of our specs
slender beacon
How much of a damage increase is 2 set and 4 set respectfully
Still rocking 4set from season 2 and getting stomped on charts >_<
short radish
!tier
wicked joltBOT
Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.
chrome fern
slender beacon
Holy shit
rocky ocean
How much of a damage increase is 2 set and 4 set respectfully
723 4p simmed for 25% over old 4p for me
void needle
You guys are getting stomped without 4p? Maybe st raid bosses a little bit, but I actually feel pretty competitive in m+ already
chrome fern
im getting stomped in raid on my dh with 2p 0pc
finite carbon
ty i hate it
scenic plover
does sub struggle with downtime like outlaw does?
still depot
!coup
chrome fern
sub is downtime
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
rocky ocean
does sub struggle with downtime like outlaw does?
downtime outside of cds is beneficial actually
tulip gorge
so you guys play with thistle tea or with cold blood?
shy scarab
so you guys play with thistle tea or with cold blood?
for raid CB keys can run either but better with thistle so you dont starve too much
lucid jackal
Tea build is cope
play this build in keys
Feels solid, doesn't feel like a burden on ST
scenic plover
play this build in keys
is this the one from wowhead marked as "play this" ?
tulip gorge
play this build in keys
no rotten?
do we not shuriken storm to apply FW anymore in aoe?
lucid jackal
is this the one from wowhead marked as "play this" ?
idk
Just the no tornado shit is good
RS TFD Finality/rotten
sage pond
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
limpid sage
It costs ST so I don't like it
Isn’t it a way bigger loss on AOE than gain ST?
Iirc finality over rotten was only like 0.6% for me on st
spring elm
so after our opener how are we using dance. do you do 2 dances before your next flag?
lucid jackal
Isn’t it a way bigger loss on AOE than gain ST?
Yeah I mean u can take rotten
tight arch
quick question in m+ where is more then 7 targets and when I am in CDs I do shuriken into black powder right... ofc coup and secret
spring elm
__**Coup de Grace Optimizations:**__
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finisher...
I'm confused about this. By unseen blade stacks is it talking about flawless form?
plucky parrot
I'm confused about this. By unseen blade stacks is it talking about flawless for...
Escalating blades
spring elm
Ohh that makes sense
vivid nest
guys why do the top rogues appear as playing sub but when you click the profile they are assa
is sub strong only with gear or what
lucid jackal
guys why do the top rogues appear as playing sub but when you click the profile ...
BOth specs are good
Sub kinda needs prism to be playable
vivid nest
can you share the parse then so i can see what youre doing pls
void needle
Once I get out of raid if I remember to
lusty root
I have prism and Lilly and I’m still trying to figure out how to best use both
spring elm
the stats on WCL show sub as one of the worst specs
lusty root
What stats?
spring elm
DPS rankings
plucky parrot
it's because the majority of public logs only cover the first 3 bosses (where sub struggles against other pure st specs outside of soulbinder)
can reference the fights where sub shines if you want a more accurate gauge (soulbinder, araz, nexus king, dimensius)
lucid jackal
Yeah reference mythic dimensius 
plucky parrot
Yeah reference mythic dimensius <:garf_sit:1334889429449314456>
It's there if you squint real hard
lucid jackal
But yeah WCL statistics page is just very useless
IT says arms is the second best spec in raid
plucky parrot
lucid jackal
U have to use ur thinking cap to really understand the damage amps + big damage = good this raid
short radish
what poisons do we use
instant
and then whatever you feel like on your other one
crippling if you need slow
mind numbing if you want to slow casts
atrophic for raid probably
proper latch
Can you pre-cloak circles on the first boss in the raid?
grave shore
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tight arch
What do we use to gain cps in Aoe with more then 7 mobs in CDs? Shadwostrike to proc coup?
tight arch
Thanks ye first I need to get down basic rotation b4 I can start min maxing set 😄
void needle
I wish that target dummies would let you reset cd's
limpid sage
Anyone know a consistent way of getting Disorienting Strikes cheese without secteccing before dying? Like is there a toy you can use in raid to get it or something
vocal pine
guys as sub rogue when I should use CD's / burst windows during raid boss fights ?
limpid sage
guys as sub rogue when I should use CD's / burst windows during raid boss fights...
where they deal the most dmg
so either when lots of adds are spawning or dmg amp is up
vale pine
I wish that target dummies would let you reset cd's
some cooldowns don't even reset on boss reset in raid
^^
vale pine
Anyone know a consistent way of getting Disorienting Strikes cheese without sect...
there is no consistent way
limpid sage
some cooldowns don't even reset on boss reset in raid
I wonder why they didn't make flag reset
void needle
Flag a bitch
limpid sage
there is no consistent way
Despairge
vale pine
!gauda
wicked joltBOT
Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.
- Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
NOT Recommended- Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully. - Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than1% damagegain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.
limpid sage
Have you tested what the Disoriented cheese gives with vanish opener?
vale pine
vanish opener is slightly better with disoriented
limpid sage
it's most likely due to small sample size, but I feel like I deal way more dmg in my opener with vanish opener when using the cheese
limpid sage
ah okay
limpid sage
and that's with combat length variance right?
umbral fulcrum
i'm trying to learn the sub opener/cd sequence, how important is it to refresh rupture before a cd window as in the opener? i'm used to assa where refreshing rupture in cd's is fine
tepid trellis
if rupture wont last
limpid sage
because I'd imagine it's even better without it in some cases
vale pine
i'm trying to learn the sub opener/cd sequence, how important is it to refresh r...
the baseline of subtlety is to optimize for burst windows
so its a good thing to refresh strategically
umbral fulcrum
do i just sit on my hands entirely with fully cp waiting to refresh rupture if i see a cd window coming up
tepid trellis
re-apply if its falling off, if not yes
just sit at max cp when flag hits 10 sec
and press backstab when you are about to overcap energy
umbral fulcrum
roger
sub seemed a lot harder to pick up than what i’m experiencing hitting a dummy
esp if i can literally do nothing to prepare for a cd window
lucid jackal
The spec has a reputation of being harder than it actually is
glacial kraken
i'm trying to learn the sub opener/cd sequence, how important is it to refresh r...
someone hasn't finished their campaign 
radiant cedar
hello sub chads, currently im dummy practicing on 3 targets assuming its a raid scenario. do i ever black powder on 3 targets or just spam eviscerate with nimble flurry up?
regardless of shadow dance
glacial kraken
Did we used to do a 1cp nightblade into a full cp one in Legion?
or am i misremembering
void needle
The spec has a reputation of being harder than it actually is
Yeah, I wouldn't say the spec is hard. Just punishing for not playing your cds very specifically, butchering a dance window or losing uptime during one kills your dps so badly
upbeat sorrel
are you guys using the versa belt power
vale pine
Subtlety is hard because it has concepts other specs don't have
inherently, its not hard to use cooldowns together
many classes do so
but no other spec/class has multiple stacks of cooldowns
and cdr on them
and multiple maintainance debuffs/dots
formal helm
vale pine
so people inherently perform worse before at least getting the basics down
i saw people in higher keys move from competitive overall damage
to 1-2 mil overall
simply by switching to subtlety from assassiantion
the management part is not trivial, and you get punished for mistakes
timber crow
I'm quite new to Sub. Does anyone know how to properly track if my next backstab will apply Unseen Blade?
vale pine
!wa
wicked joltBOT
formal helm
to 1-2 mil overall
Why are you spying on my keys 
vale pine
le's weakaura has a estimate for ub
there is no reliable way to track it
blizz design decision^^
vale pine
haha
limpid sage
so people inherently perform worse before at least getting the basics down
to me that's also what felt incredibly rewarding learning the spec
vale pine
i am surprised
timber crow
ah ok i have a estimate already but i hoped there was a better way
vale pine
lets say it this way
limpid sage
everytime something clicked you instantly saw it on meters
limpid sage
and there's still a lot to optimize I feel
vale pine
XD
formal helm
my overall on assa on dummy was very good
Well ye, dummy was fine
But in m+ I had no feeling what to press kinda?
And felt...slow?
gentle venture
is there a sub guide that anyone would recommend for someone switching from sin while it's broken af to try and learn sub in the short term
formal helm
Mby just too used to sub
vale pine
!guide
vale pine
pick your poison all of them are good
limpid sage
simply installing and fallowing hekili
hekili is busted as a learning tool tbf
gentle venture
the wowhead guide felt very inaccessable
formal helm
(Pick all 3 guides)
gentle venture
the rotation for example, both the graphic and the "explanation" part, just did not feel very "new to sub" friendly and I found it very hard to follow
vale pine
how would you change it to be accessible?
like inherently
the picture shows the key press of the opener
gentle venture
I could not answer that, I'm not a guide writer, so I don't know what would make it feel more accessible, I can just say that I did not find it easy to follow/understand.
vale pine
and the explenation does go over the decision making
gentle venture
like #2 isn't even labeled as what ability that is, I had to look it up to figure out it was flagellation cause the icon has changed, I thought it was gloomblade
willow bobcat
The explanation has the ability name in it....
vale pine
there is a alternative versio too
which suppots mouseover
but thats hidden behind a toggle
gentle venture
...
vale pine
i mean okay fair
you did not know the ability and did not want to look at the explenation tab
which def. is harder to understand then
i can understand that
half dragon
the one thing that kinda threw me when i first looked at it was the dance into 5 on the optimization, like it almost implies dance straight into shadowstrike and then technique
had to verify with a sim that i wasnt crazy and that it didnt make sense lol
gentle venture
it's ok, nvm, please forget I asked.
vale pine
i am just asking for feedback
because you used the phrase "inaccessable", which is fairly brutal given that i spend a lot of time to try to make it easy to understand visually and with explenations
willow bobcat
Didnt beam the information straight into my brain, guide sucks
tribal blade
if you cannot figure out ability names that are literally written right there i dunno what to say
willow bobcat
You didnt even put in the bare minimum of effort man.
indigo drift
The guides are all fine, the problem is people are too lazy to read
uncut bloom
The visual guide is there, there's an explanation of the abilities and why you use them. Seems fairly straightforward to me.
leaden prairie
there is a alternative versio too
waht happen if you put that instead of your picture
proven plover
Nothing
vale pine
waht happen if you put that instead of your picture
it sucks on mobile
you can't read it
spring pumice
I'm completely new to sub (and rogue) too and for what it's worth everything was clear to me (even though sub is very overwhelming to learn from scratch lmao)
proven plover
There are no names aswell
leaden prairie
ah really
vale pine
because the sequence is too long
vale pine
ye
gentle venture
right, I didn't spend over an hour last night reading the guide and looking at icyveins before coming here to ask. I know asking questions in ravenholdt is the biggest taboo, "just sim it" is a fucking icon you can spam at people, but yeah, no effort was put in
vale pine
huh?
gentle venture
not replying to you fuu
willow bobcat
Hes mad at me cause I made a joke and it hit a nerve.
spring pumice
I mean "I'm not a guidewriter" when the guy is asking for feedback is completely unreasonable lol
proven plover
Maybe just put the ability Labels instead of the order numbers below icons
In a small font
vale pine
would be possible too
i like the mouseover part
i hoped wowhead would fix the scaling problem ^^
plucky parrot
A small "key" section might make sense in the blank space of the timeline
so at a glance all the info is in one place
tribal blade
i honestly don't think it's necessary, but could be helpful
vale pine
think its a problem of redability then
indigo drift
To say 'I dunno what number 2 is cause the icons changed', that's on you, the icon is the same in game, if you're too lazy to check what it was then that's not down to Fuu that you dunno what it is
vale pine
i think its fair critique
half dragon
@vale pine can you explain why the secret technique is moved to step 6 in the optimization and we dont backstab at all? since it doesnt match the sims
vale pine
wdym
half dragon
willow bobcat
This part
half dragon
yeah it doesnt make sense to me
willow bobcat
First Sec Tec before Cold Blood Sec tec
vale pine
This part
oh, it is the labeling from the old opener, i probably can update it, or remove it entirely
could add backstab to the sequence too
so its less confusing
half dragon
that legit made me sit and scratch my head for 10 min because i couldnt see the logic lmao
so i just simmed it and checked what sim did
willow bobcat
Now thats how you provide feedback. Gold Star
spring elm
I saw on logs someone symbols -> CB sectec -> dance in the opener after first dance is that optimal
assuming dance was then active after sectec delay
willow bobcat
I saw on logs someone symbols -> CB sectec -> dance in the opener after first da...
Its if you want to skip the optimization and just send CB with Sectec in a macro
spring elm
Sorry i typed that wrong. I meant they did their first dance/sec tec, that one ended than hit that sequence with full combo points into 2nd dance
vale pine
i think secret before dance
seems weird
dance-secret is fine
and if you macro the two
you will send cb + secret there
which is a roughly 1-1.5% damage loss overall
iirc
but its not that bad espeically if you learn the spec or don't play mythic
willow bobcat
Sorry i typed that wrong. I meant they did their first dance/sec tec, that one e...
So they sent Secret with CB before their second dance was used?
spring elm
spring elm
Oh that makes sense, i thought dance had ended
leaden prairie
vs. the timeline
could you maybe ask wowhead to fix it tho
cause the mouseover part is so op
vagrant fulcrum
because you used the phrase "inaccessable", which is fairly brutal given that i ...
honestly I think it's important to note sub is one of the least accessible specs in game on first look
vale pine
could you maybe ask wowhead to fix it tho
we did ^^, it was just not changed so far
vagrant fulcrum
not much to do with your guidewriting
im currently having a headache figuring out how im going to play second night of araz
vale pine
i specifically asked if i can use the pictures because i got many dm's saying the guide is useless on mobile
vagrant fulcrum
that's more to do with wowhead on mobile no?
vale pine
yes
vagrant fulcrum
I think expectations need to be managed, this isn't the kind of spec you pick up in 10 minutes
vagrant fulcrum
the amount of times i send sectec without dance up
omfg
and the entire pull is bricked from that one mistake
vagrant fulcrum
onto more constructive topics
what's with the difference in talents
between reccomended araz and logs
vale pine
talents are fairly flexible
void ocean
flexible in terms of everyone playing st build everywhere 😄
vale pine
haha true
vagrant fulcrum
like I get we dont use tfd in araz
willow bobcat
TFD is just in the standard ST build
vagrant fulcrum
lowkey I think im just gonna try to cook the build with the easiest gameplay
i cant get used to this spec in a day after not touching it since s1
half dragon
i mean tfd probably just loses value because of the amp phase, so u dont do as much of ur damage at the start
vagrant fulcrum
ye, tfd is good bc we get the extra duration in cds
wicked joltBOT
Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.
vagrant fulcrum
if we are outside of dance but we have coup do we hold it or whats the play
from what the guide says you hold coup for upcoming major cds, 10s by building shadow techniques and 20s of holding coup and pressing bp
upbeat sorrel
from what the guide says you hold coup for upcoming major cds, 10s by building s...
ty sir
acoustic matrix
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
upbeat sorrel
!guide
main ridge
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
half dragon
idk sims doesnt seem to press bp at all so idk if its outdated or not
quiet zephyr
guys what the tldr difference between sub, outlaw, assa rn? are all 3 viable?
half dragon
well yes, but for st coup de grace optimization
upbeat sorrel
guys what the tldr difference between sub, outlaw, assa rn? are all 3 viable?
all is playable
hollow spear
It's not an optimisation
upbeat sorrel
sub or ass depends on the boss
acoustic matrix
guys what the tldr difference between sub, outlaw, assa rn? are all 3 viable?
Outlaw is undertuned, Assa is bugged but still performs well in heavy AOE, Sub is in a great spot
vagrant fulcrum
guys what the tldr difference between sub, outlaw, assa rn? are all 3 viable?
all are generally viable, each is best in specific situations
half dragon
quiet zephyr
whats preferable for m+? Or same thing applies all 3 are viable
quiet zephyr
i just noticed i wasnt seeing much assa in raider io
acoustic matrix
Yeah cause it's bugged rn
hollow spear
And youd only press bp if you have coup up
short radish
right, I didn't spend over an hour last night reading the guide and looking at i...
asking questions is fine, asking questions that are easily answered in guides are not as fine
likewise with gear questions
acoustic matrix
Most rogues switched to Sub
half dragon
And youd only press bp if you have coup up
yeah the sim doesnt do it at all though it seems
hollow spear
Ig either because it doesn't have coup or because it doesn't need cdr
half dragon
so either its super rare
short radish
for any "specific" gearing question the answer is sim yourself
half dragon
or its not in
short radish
for any general gearing q uestion the answer is "get ilvl and avoid haste"
keen dome
Number go up as long as number not haste
hollow spear
Idk what you guys are smoking, the majority of rogues are still playing sin
acoustic matrix
At high elo no
quiet zephyr
^
half dragon
sub or sin at high, barely any outlaw
fierce minnow
isn assassination giga bugged rn and does more damage than it is supposed to do
acoustic matrix
Nah it's the opposite
short radish
isn assassination giga bugged rn and does more damage than it is supposed to do
got fixed
acoustic matrix
It does way less
short radish
now there are more bugs discovered
and it does way less than its supposed to do
#justroguethings
keen dome
It's Assa's turn to be buggy.
short radish
nah
hollow spear
I don't think it matters at all what high key players are doing rn
short radish
thats the DH expac
fierce minnow
nvm i already set up bets that rogue wont even be included in the first beta client
keen dome
We don't need a revamp
hollow spear
Most people focus on raid rn
plucky parrot
I'm curious what they'll focus on for sub's apex talent
keen dome
I'm curious what they'll focus on for sub's apex talent
SecTec or Dance.
No other real options, imo.
hollow spear
Goremaw
short radish
I'm curious what they'll focus on for sub's apex talent
Bonuses from Shadowheart now also apply to dance and subterfuge modifiers.
keen dome
haha
upbeat sorrel
can we get shadowlands sub back for m+ this is too complicated for me
acoustic matrix
Why is it bad to macro Symbols to SecTec guys ?
upbeat sorrel
i just want to spam black powder
fringe palm
Bonuses from Shadowheart now also apply to dance and subterfuge modifiers.
Might have to nerf it to 1% then might be too op
plucky parrot
apex talents for bp so we never press evis again
hollow spear
Tomorrow's it's my turn to flame Ravenholdt and the guide writers, guys. Get in line!
keen dome
can we get shadowlands sub back for m+ this is too complicated for me
You can just spam BP at 4+ targets it's fineeeee
onyx trail
Weird one I cant find in the guides, What poisons do we use? Like does atrophic actually affect raid bosses, or should I just be running wound or smthing
upbeat sorrel
yeah but i have to coup sometimes mechanically the difficulty has shot up exponentially
keen dome
Weird one I cant find in the guides, What poisons do we use? Like does atrophic ...
Atrophic in raid, numbing in M+
fierce minnow
Why is it bad to macro Symbols to SecTec guys ?
cause you learn a bad habit and the use of symbols has and will change from time to time
keen dome
Instant at all times for your damage poison
fierce minnow
Why is it bad to macro Symbols to SecTec guys ?
also you might clip symbols duration
keen dome
Ye. You don't really have any choice.
fierce minnow
if you are gonna macro symbols to anything, macro it to dance
keen dome
It's either / or depending on content and always Instant.
tepid trellis
quick lil eco dome weekly
short radish
keen dome
if you are gonna macro symbols to anything, macro it to dance
Don't macro it to dance
keen dome
quick lil eco dome weekly
You should share some damage with the rest of them
upbeat sorrel
found a game breaking bug on the wowhead guide
void ocean
sub dps on first boss in eco dome
acoustic matrix
if you are gonna macro symbols to anything, macro it to dance
Aight, makes sense, ty
hollow spear
Stealthi pays off the other dps confirmed
void ocean
like
short radish
oh yeah @tepid trellis what's the WA that you have under your frame with the hp pot/potion/healthstone
fierce minnow
Don't macro it to dance
dont macro it at all tbh
karmic harbor
what weapon enchants do you use for forgeweaver mythic / how would i sim that
void ocean
i can outdps all others in total
keen dome
what weapon enchants do you use for forgeweaver mythic / how would i sim that
Top Gear -> replace existing -> select them all -> sim
fierce minnow
Aight, makes sense, ty
still recommending to just bind it seperately... learn it...
you will have better control over your damage...
karmic harbor
Top Gear -> replace existing -> select them all -> sim
and how do i change it to sim for a forgeweaver type fight?
acoustic matrix
still recommending to just bind it seperately... learn it...
Yeah yeah that's the plan
upbeat sorrel
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
tepid trellis
oh yeah <@83652604344664064> what's the WA that you have under your frame with t...
that?
acoustic matrix
The clipping actually makes sense
keen dome
and how do i change it to sim for a forgeweaver type fight?
Just use Patchwerk I guess I dunno.
fierce minnow
you really need to have supercharger for your sectecs
tepid trellis
just a regular wa that tracks pots
short radish
and how do i change it to sim for a forgeweaver type fight?
probably hectic add cleave but also who cares just use patchwerk and swapping enchants wont make a drastic difference
short radish
just a regular wa that tracks pots
which is the regular wa 
im using a luxthos one and its taking up a lot of resources i think
tepid trellis
its from Atrocity UI
tepid trellis
everything i have is in his pack, cuz i help mal with keeping it up to date for rogue
or almost everything
i do have some purely self creations
streets from before the eco
kindred dock
They never do 🙁
tepid trellis
nah just helping friends with weekly keys
fierce minnow
friends have to pay in a specialcurrency... named beer.
tepid trellis
damn
like i made this coup refund warning bar to show when the last tick of coup is so you dont queue a finisher
the bar under the buffs
azure ember
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
azure ember
cant macro cold blood anymore?
kindred dock
u want cold blood for the 2nd technique
short radish
!wa
wicked joltBOT
azure ember
yeah i know
kindred dock
so u dont do this - no
azure ember
but thats what im saying
short radish
is your WA pack available somewhere or only in atrocity UI
azure ember
i have 2 sec tech buttons
vagrant fulcrum
ok wait, can I macro sectec to blades?
short radish
ok wait, can I macro sectec to blades?
no
vagrant fulcrum
the q ill ask now is why
azure ember
i used to have 2 sectech buttons and one was macro'd with CB
kindred dock
i have 2 sec tech buttons
yes. one with and one without cb 😄
vagrant fulcrum
i swear to god sub got infinitely harder compared to dust in df
azure ember
it doesnt work anymore
vagrant fulcrum
or maybe i just got shit
kindred dock
srsly?
azure ember
yup
kindred dock
😄
maiden oar
like i made this coup refund warning bar to show when the last tick of coup is s...
is this coming to aui or will it stay as a secret custom wa
seems kinda nice to have
karmic harbor
in aoe how many tagets do we want rupture up on?
kindred dock
mh. dunno the sim but i do rupture as long as tank is pulling together
works fine for me
its nice, tricks are perma ^^
vagrant fulcrum
yeah wait, why would we not macro sectec to blades? it's always the first global of blades
sick sand
@tepid trellis wanna post some of the m+ runs on YT?
shell ice
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
keen dome
doesnt work for sub 🙂
!cbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <
keen dome
Is it on your bars.
kindred dock
Guildy of mine asked, if sub is a 2 button class. watched my discord stream while i was off cd 😄 i had to smile
cursive vapor
goon morning
rocky ocean
defias brotherhood
wet idol
Guildy of mine asked, if sub is a 2 button class. watched my discord stream whil...
Feels the same when my guildies are saying "you just fan of knives and black powder, and you do 20M on packs, what's this op class"
kindred dock
yeah 😄 ! This!
cursive vapor
fan of knives whats that?
vale pine
found a game breaking bug on the wowhead guide
haha^^
vale pine
like I get we dont use tfd in araz
it seems most of the top logs just play single target, replicating might not be super high value on the fight, i can adjust that in the guide for sure. good point
vagrant fulcrum
@vale pine i've yet to get an answer on this, why are we not macroing sectec to blades
half dragon
<@194804407706189824> i've yet to get an answer on this, why are we not macroing...
because sometimes u use it before blades
vagrant fulcrum
ok wait what
vagrant fulcrum
thats fine
vale pine
you would want to macro cold blood and secret
vale pine
but in a way to have the option to not use cold blood
upbeat sorrel
ya i just have 2 sec tec's one with cb one without
blades is macro'd with my trinket
vale pine
so you would need to macro blades to the non cold blood version?
vagrant fulcrum
yes
vale pine
i guess you could do that
vagrant fulcrum
well its wrong to say blades to sec
half dragon
i mean then you would still need another sectec keybind
vagrant fulcrum
its better to say im macroing sectec to blades
vale pine
i was just confused
half dragon
for when u use it before blades
vagrant fulcrum
yes ofc
vale pine
i mean it does not matter if you use it before or after secret
as long as clones get it
vale pine
i am unsure what you ask for
weak flame
heyo do we have a weak aura to pre symbol in raid
a reminder
vagrant fulcrum
i am unsure what you ask for
there's people only using cb inside blades
and doing very well
it can't be a massive loss
vale pine
thats how you use it
keen dome
We CB the second SecTec in blades as it's at the peak of our damage window.
cursive island
Yo guy's on big pulls I feel like doing more dmg by doing the ST rotation rather than BP... Does it have anything to do with sprea find weakness ?
keen dome
It's like.. 1.5% or something iirc?
vale pine
during lag/blades
vale pine
yes
vagrant fulcrum
ok that simplifies things a lot
tepid trellis
<@83652604344664064> wanna post some of the m+ runs on YT?
nah, i dont record when im just doing weeklies, also im playing very unethically just to do more dmg
keen dome
It's all about packing in our damage into the peak of our amp. The biggest possible hit.
vale pine
Yo guy's on big pulls I feel like doing more dmg by doing the ST rotation rather...
make sue to use coup still if you have multiple targets
tepid trellis
is this coming to aui or will it stay as a secret custom wa
depends on the AUi guys if they want it or not
vale pine
nah, i dont record when im just doing weeklies, also im playing very unethically...
did you fix your obs?
tepid trellis
ill find out tmrw
maiden oar
depends on the AUi guys if they want it or not
oh ok i hope they want it
tepid trellis
atrocity ui
vale pine
ohh
cursive island
make sue to use coup still if you have multiple targets
oh yeah, i just ignored Coup when doing BP, thanks
hollow spear
Ignoring coup in 2025
vale pine
don't be mean, its easy to forget if you are learning
hollow spear
Coup is my lifeblood rn
hollow spear
Gives me an aneurysm when it procs cp tho
tepid trellis
forgot it was monday
fierce minnow
not mean, just curious, you should get hard on the coup crits
vale pine
forgot it was monday
haha^^
marble thistle
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vagrant fulcrum
id pay money for them to give us back dust, made playing cds a lot more intuitive than this garbage
tepid trellis
100% certain it wont
vagrant fulcrum
how did people complain about dust and they're ok with the current optimisations?
weak flame
!wa
fierce minnow
i hope that tierset gets worked into the 4th trickster column
wicked joltBOT
vale pine
how did people complain about dust and they're ok with the current optimisations...
well courent optimizations are optional
tepid trellis
how did people complain about dust and they're ok with the current optimisations...
cuz it wasent easily accesible to the casuals
vagrant fulcrum
well courent optimizations are optional
where can I find the barebones?
vagrant fulcrum
cuz it wasent easily accesible to the casuals
idk man, i was v confident with end of df sub
tepid trellis
if you wanted to do any form of mid dmg
vagrant fulcrum
this current version is giving me a headache
tepid trellis
you needed to plan out a boss fight
vagrant fulcrum
how do I remember all this shit while playing mechanics
cold totem
I see sub rogues in high keys taking CB jnstead of thistle tea again (including symbol talents). What is recommenden for talents in lower Keys?
graceful terrace
Do we no longer refresh symbols at 3 seconds?
vagrant fulcrum
Do we no longer refresh symbols at 3 seconds?
i think you can so long as you'd supercharge sectec
which normally doesn't line up with symbols at 3
tepid trellis
tbf it kinda plays itself
short radish
I see sub rogues in high keys taking CB jnstead of thistle tea again (including ...
doesnt matter you wont notice a difference
play what you want
tepid trellis
i can admit im not thinking about my rotation when im playing in raid
vagrant fulcrum
I think you also have a lot more hours on sub than me or the average player + better player in general
graceful terrace
i can admit im not thinking about my rotation when im playing in raid
Honestly I feel that
fierce minnow
Stealthi is just pressing buttons
keen dome
Sub just needs practice
vagrant fulcrum
sin just isn't functional on that fight, you're like 20% behind sub
short radish
Honestly I feel that
yeah same, dance is just muscle memory
keen dome
A lot of it makes sense like. You don't dance after X seconds left on flag. You only CB the second SecTec in cooldowns. You do a 2 - 1 - 2 sequence betweenc ooldowns of dances.
short radish
and outside dance is backstab soup
hollow spear
Once it clicks it clicks
keen dome
The spec is really easy once you get comfortable with the relatively complex rules
vagrant fulcrum
the issue is ill get 1 mechanic or have dodges, stop paying attention to the rotation
graceful terrace
A lot of it makes sense like. You don't dance after X seconds left on flag. You ...
It’s like 20 secs on flag before you pool dance is what I’ve noticed
hollow spear
Then it becomes more about optimising your dances for optimal pad priority damage
graceful terrace
17-20
vagrant fulcrum
and realise i didnt send 2nd dance in blades
fierce minnow
and outside dance is backstab soup
i usually just check out the environment
vagrant fulcrum
short radish
i usually just check out the environment
good time to look around and see what mechanics are happening
mortal trail
Guys, could you tell me in what raid bosses sub IS better or equal than Assa? I like to play whats more optimal but i prefer playing sub
keen dome
Play sub
graceful terrace
Sub is god tier this raid
fierce minnow
good time to look around and see what mechanics are happening
its the time to look at boss timers and be like "yeah adds should spawn exactly....NOW and make em vanish"
mortal trail
Pure ST Assa beats sub
keen dome
Play that then
vagrant fulcrum
Pure ST Assa beats sub
it'd be a shame if they made all the hardest bosses aoe
graceful terrace
The only tricky ish part of raid is changing around CD usage to fit kill times for different grps
hollow spear
it'd be a shame if they made all the hardest bosses aoe
They wouldn't
half dragon
Guys, could you tell me in what raid bosses sub IS better or equal than Assa? I ...
soulbinder for overall dps, forge, nexusking, dimensius
dry plank
Pure ST Assa beats sub
On raider.io check roster for echo and check in what spec kush played on which boss xD
half dragon
On raider.io check roster for echo and check in what spec kush played on which b...
kush is a method gamer now
hollow spear
Not looking forward to mark management on the dhs
fierce minnow
hollow spear
Maybe I'll just stick to sub
fierce minnow
meanwhile our boi exile is dominating
graceful terrace
Exile is an animal
vagrant fulcrum
Not looking forward to mark management on the dhs
it's not too bad if you set notes to remind you to move mark to the next intermission boss
vagrant fulcrum
and if ur mark goes to narnia just bleed the nearby guys if following isnt an option
fierce minnow
They're all animals
sadly the goat has vanished... james.
vagrant fulcrum
hes playing again
hollow spear
Gotta hand it to perfecto tho, he's been there since like forever
hollow spear
hes playing again
He pushed some keys, but betrayed us
keen dome
Perfecto played so well, really wild gamin'
vagrant fulcrum
i remember perfecto back in mop
keen dome
It's really cool to see such fantastic rogue play this race
hollow spear
Yeah really nice
The last flag window
So sweaty
I would have totally messed that up
dry plank
kush is a method gamer now
True
keen dome
I would've died on pull
dry plank
My bad
fierce minnow
I would've died on pull
27 times
vale pine
where can I find the barebones?
wdym barebones, rotation with 0 optimization?
just means you use flag/blades + 2x symbols + 2x secret + 2x dance
and in between symols+dance+secret if possible
thats the very top level baseline gameplay
hollow spear
Grok, please write a tldr
vale pine
XD
hollow spear
My favourite memory was when I saw someone in here asking for a streamer because they're a "visual learner". Then I saw them in Kush's (or maybe shindig's) chat asking them questions about the rotation.
vale pine
i mean kush/perfecto/speed/casual are probably the rogues you find playing subtlety
so not bad
it is probably easier to ask questions in here, but everyone their preferences
fierce minnow
kush is exceptional at playing but horrible at explaining anything... the guy just talks nonesense all day 😄
cant imagine anything good comes from letting him explain things on stream. its all memes
hollow spear
People complain about rude answers to dumb questions here
They haven't chatted on Kush's stream yet
fierce minnow
i mean anyone looking at this (fuu guide) and going like "yeah i´d rather ask some streamer about rotation" is completely delusional. it doesnt get any better than this
hollow spear
It's not very beginner friendly
vale pine
haha
half dragon
i mean there are a lot of situational things that are very fair to ask a streamer
hollow spear
It doesn't text to speech the ability name when hovering
half dragon
obviously kush isnt the best to ask, hes probably going to give u a meme answer
vale pine
thats true
fierce minnow
obviously kush isnt the best to ask, hes probably going to give u a meme answer
exactly^^
hollow spear
I watch kush for high level gameplay, not for education
vale pine
but if you want to watch some higher level keys in terms of gameplay
why not
you can still learn decision making
fierce minnow
but you need to have a really good understanding of the spec to begin with to even see whats going on
fierce minnow
like try watching zac play outlaw and listen to baguette music
you have no idea whats even happening
you learn zip from that
vale pine
my point
hollow spear
Yeah I just have a problem with people coming here or their chat and asking questions that just prove that they haven't read any guide for just a second
vale pine
you need a certain baseline understanding
about abilities/cooldowns
then you can see how they are used
then again, everyone learns diffrently
hollow spear
Some even preface that they've read three guides and cannot answer the first question you ask
vale pine
and most of the visual learners want a youtube guide, which is just a diffrent medium
hollow spear
That's like me back in the day when my drums teacher asked me if had practiced what he showed me last time
Yeah four days
fierce minnow
haha
hollow spear
(didn't even look at my drums once)
vale pine
just to be nerdy, visual learning does not exist. It is just a phrase people like to use to express preferences
fierce minnow
classic
vale pine
there are several studies to just outline tha basically
giving more options and putting more effort in teaching
means you get better results
funnily enough
hollow spear
I'm learning by fucking it up four hundred times
vale pine
the test groups who got somone to talk to and react to their questions
had the best results
outdoing visual video guides by big margins
hollow spear
Asking is great
vale pine
but that seems fairly obviouse
if you can directly interact
its always the best way to learn
because you can get answers exactly to the specific question you have at hand
fierce minnow
i think many will just have to take a coaching session
vale pine
its super easy to get stuck in a small detail
fierce minnow
its the most efficient use of their time
instead of studying streams for little gain
hollow spear
You do some log reviews of people asking about peak min maxing and their flag window looks like a Jackson pollock
half dragon
that reminds me, ive got a question, for every non cd dance+symbols, do you always want to backstab before the sectec?
lilac stag
instead of studying streams for little gain
Studying streams not doing things correctly as well.
vale pine
i talked with stealthi and eleem about it yesteday a bit
a lot of logs i get posted in dm's recently
just don't use their 90 sec cooldowns efficiently
fierce minnow
Studying streams not doing things correctly as well.
the other day i saw the echo mage use arcane surge and evocation afterwards
vale pine
means they often use flag/blades every 3-4 minutes
fierce minnow
i was like... bruh
short radish
means they often use flag/blades every 3-4 minutes
???????????????????????
hollow spear
that reminds me, ive got a question, for every non cd dance+symbols, do you alwa...
First builder after dance for the premed
vale pine
???????????????????????
its easy to do
short radish
like
vale pine
because
short radish
first use at 0:00
tepid trellis
Studying streams not doing things correctly as well.
its also just, people make mistakes uknow, so taking everything at face value is never a good idea
short radish
2nd use at 3:00
vale pine
think of it like this
short radish
?
vale pine
you know your big cooldowns do big damage
lilac stag
???????????????????????
You see I’m holding for prisim stacks.
fierce minnow
its easy to fuck up blades in keys
vale pine
so you just keep "holding" them
half dragon
First builder after dance for the premed
yeah but that doesnt answer the question, either you go into it with full combo points, do you insta sectec, or do you use a diff finisher to then backstab into sectec
vale pine
for the perfect moment
short radish
yeah that makes sense
vale pine
yes
short radish
thats a common m+ thing
vale pine
so people often sit very long on coldowns
short radish
people want to hold for the most efficient time
vale pine
which means their performance sucks ofc
tepid trellis
yeah but that doesnt answer the question, either you go into it with full combo ...
finisher doesent change
you would dance-sectech-backstab
in the case of full cp
lilac stag
its also just, people make mistakes uknow, so taking everything at face value is...
100% it’s basically impossible play this spec perfectly at all times.
tepid trellis
its like that with all specs fwiw
open depot
If the raid leader want my cds on a specific moment he better assign them as I am a melee player and I am dumb as bricks. We pop on cd
tepid trellis
too many factors happening in encounters
half dragon
finisher doesent change
aight ty
short radish
yeah it's a very low/medium level mistake for any key doers
they don't treat the entire dungeon as one long boss fight
vale pine
like anecdotally some rogues in the wfr forgot to do the symbols pre pull cheese
lilac stag
Some specs just are forgiving in not being “perfect”. looks at assa
tepid trellis
in the 10+ mil overall eco i did
short radish
and as a result don't understand that holding for 1 minute here, 1 minute there means you've lost a cast in the dungeon
tepid trellis
i fucked up quite badly before a big pull
was too aggresive with dances
and didn't have enough cdr for 2x dances in burst
limpid sage
outdoing visual video guides by big margins
I'd imagine it has more to do with "mental RAM" and ability to visualize. I wonder how if it'd change if they were given visual feedback instead
tepid trellis
so had to delay 10-15sec
fierce minnow
limpid sage
without knowing anything about the study you're talking about
lilac stag
Trying to understand keys are just one big boss encounter goes a long way in playing sub better in keys imo
vale pine
I'd imagine it has more to do with "mental RAM" and ability to visualize. I wond...
think its just that any form of feedback loop is better than static learning material
it does not matter what medium
limpid sage
I guess that's also why people come here with questions that are already on wowhead
limpid sage
think its just that any form of feedback loop is better than static learning mat...
yeah definitely
lilac stag
Sooo much attention given to small minmix while you’re missing major things like 3 blades casts over the entirety of the key.
short radish
Trying to understand keys are just one big boss encounter goes a long way in pla...
you can say that about any class tbh
people just keep holding cds
vale pine
probably shows some problems in the us educaiton system
limpid sage
I think that's a worldwide thing
vale pine
but also the potential, to have an program answer even the stupid questions you would not be able to ask a teacher
lilac stag
you can say that about any class tbh
Again specs that are less cd reliant it doesn’t matter as much.
vale pine
its a super inetressting thing
i personally would probably use ai assisted learning if it wasn't so unreliable
unreliable = it makes stuff up easy
vestal escarp
sub keys are somewhat fun
limpid sage
ye you just have to be critical and check the sources it lists
vestal escarp
St is the same since anniversary
vestal escarp
in gameplay i mean
limpid sage
buff evis 20%, nerf bp 10%
vale pine
don't think you need to nerf bp
kindred dock
i'm afraid of nerfs.. 😕 it feels good atm
vestal escarp
we left the ehtics behind
limpid sage
wouldn't we be godtier in keys if no nerfs
limpid sage
ah true
vestal escarp
wouldn't we be godtier in keys if no nerfs
better but no godtier
vale pine
but i don't think you rly need to nerf bp
evis ofc would increase our aoe
but we are not out of line in aoe output
limpid sage
archon.gg tier list puts us at S+ tier atm
better than fdk
anyone know how they decide that?
vale pine
also like
blizz thinks outliners like this are fine
on certain fights
(soul hunters)
kindred dock
my guess is, that they dont will nerf us. maybe some classes get buffs instead.
tepid trellis
breakdown in my eco dome, was looking quite fine
tepid trellis
no its smaller
tribal blade
anyone know how they decide that?
looks like it's based on average score
tepid trellis
like 20% or so
tribal blade
so sub rogues have the highest average score atm
limpid sage
isn't it more worth to sblades when the 2nd and 3rd hit are coming in then?
you get 1 extra gcd of blades
tepid trellis
doesent matter
limpid sage
as in it's neutral simwise?
tepid trellis
yes
limpid sage
ah ok
dusty crest
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
limpid sage
then I'll stop doing it, because sometimes it desyncs my flag and blades slightly which is way worse lol
tepid trellis
i personally do it after the cast, cuz of muscle memory of doing it that way since forever
maiden pilot
When would you use that trinket as sub? Sim says after flagellation, probably because I get 2 ST in it? is that recommended?
hazy breach
i personally do it after the cast, cuz of muscle memory of doing it that way sin...
A lot of newer people end up using it like 0.1s after and then its kinda pointless to not do before
So since it didnt matter the recommendation was just changed
tepid trellis
i usually just do it sorta half way through
the global
depending how fast my fingers are moving
limpid sage
whoa is that you playing stealthi
hazy breach
Ye didnt mean to call you out, moreso mentioning it for the others
lilac stag
very demure with the standing desk.
opal basalt
i personally do it after the cast, cuz of muscle memory of doing it that way sin...
Wait so I wasn’t dreaming when I saw exile hit sectech before blades?
limpid sage
mindful even
lilac stag
Wait so I wasn’t dreaming when I saw exile hit sectech before blades?
This was normal for most of the expansion.
opal basalt
Idk I just picked up sub like mid-last season
blissful yacht
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.