subtlety

[alpine wraith]

but maybe there is a way

maybe only first add is danger and second is fine?

i was soaking the beam

then stepped then snapped

[dusk stone]

I will try (if stuff doesn't magically break on that boss again)

[alpine wraith]

not the thread but tgot stunned

[jagged rover]

I haven't tried stepping the tangle, but also found out you get stunned if you step the boss after the big aoe before the walls disappear. Just started using sprint to go back in

[raw wadi]

Shadowstep the warrior

[warm marlin]

hmm yes I decided to test this on the pull I also cheated already

[dusk stone]

Rtwf was sick

[warm marlin]

did not go well

[raw wadi]

I stopped shadowstepping bosses on gally...

[dusk stone]

Omg yes

That was cancer and aids put together

You shadow step where he was and no longer is it was wild

[west tide]

ive stepped it like 5 times never got hit but got hit one time

i think i mightve pressed W tho

but most of the time i step it i dont get hit

[crystal bone]

yea i just tried it works

just cant immediately hit w

[steel horizon]

whatever you do, dont step the boss too quickly after the run out + room wide aoe.

[twilit phoenix]

imexile crushed it

so happy for bro

[short radish]

yes you can

[wicked urchin]

huge w for us rogues

[short radish]

but wait for the tangles to go out first

so you dont get sucked in and rooted

[wicked urchin]

also easily the best race of all time right?

[onyx trail]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[wicked urchin]

i opened stream at 5%

[twilit phoenix]

yeah for sure

super tight and exciting from all teams

glad u agree justin

[wicked urchin]

it’s you again

i know now

but seriously hugely impressive from blizzard on the perfect tuning of this boss

[twilit phoenix]

[wicked urchin]

i was watching the compwow reddit the past few days and everyone was going off about it being impossible

[dusk stone]

Tuning felt like it was too much

[wicked urchin]

and i was like nah they’ll find it

i don’t think so

[alpine wraith]

when they moved bl it had shown

[dusk stone]

Did they bl p3

Or just healers

[wicked urchin]

Yes

bl p3

[dusk stone]

They did end up doing forbidden lust strat

[wicked urchin]

The what

[dusk stone]

They had healers lust seperately in p3

[wicked urchin]

Yes that

[dusk stone]

It requires pain in the ass to setup

[wicked urchin]

That’s pretty cringe i’ll agree

damage check wise though perfect

[dusk stone]

A lot of it seemed like healer prog

It was like this last tier as well

Kill pull hp bars looked really clean

[twilit phoenix]

grats king, insane work

[onyx trail]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[regal rose]

as sub im trying to understand do we only shadow strike when he dance and symbols in bug pulls or just spam ss

[swift tinsel]

Strike

Storm outside of dance or between coups with shadow blades up

[fast shard]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[steel horizon]

shadow strike procs unseen blade

[hoary lotus]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[slate trellis]

I'm comparing logs for M+ and seeing some dudes have rupture as like their 2nd or 3rd overall damage, Do i need to be pressing it alot more in packs?

[next otter]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[icy mulch]

its good to use when the tank is grouping

[sullen yarrow]

any god sublety player down to give me tips

[glossy dew]

can i cloak the interrogation off first boss of streets?

[icy mulch]

ya

[steel jolt]

you can pre-cloak it yeah

[glossy dew]

tyty

[spice matrix]

start here

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/subtlety/rotation-cooldowns-pve-dps

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[night sparrow]

BP seems okay in this patch

[short radish]

now that's something you don't see every day

[lucid jackal]

To figure out which spec is best for gambit

[short radish]

on low keys it's sub

[regal rose]

can u macro trinket with shadowblades?

[short radish]

by the time you've set up your bleeds on the first pull

and are ready to envenom

mobs ar edead

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lilac stag]

Not sure which is true meta so invite them all !

[mint moon]

Hey all, i know we shouldnt macro CB and sec tech but while gettin back in the flow of sub ive been using that. After looking over logs i see that CB doesnt work in macros? i even tried new macros i made on the spot and it just doesnt work at all is that a bug or im not sure whats really going on?

[fallow moth]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[mint moon]

well fuck thanks haha

had no clue

appreciate it!

[regal rose]

!sim

whats best way to sim for m+

[short radish]

dungeoinslice

[lucid jackal]

What uptime are u suppose to sim antenna at

[long sun]

guys flag gives ramping mastery for first 12s then gives a static amount for remaining 12s right?

[jagged rover]

its so nice when the flask eats some haste

[night sparrow]

yup and you don't even need to hit flag target to gain mastery stacks (up to 30, 1stack per CP spent). If target dies you instantly get the 12s mastery buff tho

[sullen yarrow]

hey i know my talents

but 1 question

what are the specific talents

for streets

big st

[jagged bear]

do you black powder spam in the beginning of gambit

because its like a milion targets

[short radish]

its more than 4

so yes

[jagged bear]

even inside symbol/dance

[short radish]

its more than 4

so yes

[regal rose]

so pulls bigger then 4 u just spam bp on less then 4 u eviserate

do u secret tech on more then 4 ?

[short radish]

yes

always sectech

[regal rose]

how many we have to keep rupture on

and do we spam rupture on shit before we go into symbols n dance

[short radish]

send one or 2 ruptures while they are grouping

you rupture when not in dance and they will survive the duration

[jagged rover]

2nd boss of halls is so satisfying. Just setup gigantic coups as soon as the gargoyles spawn

[long sun]

W TY

[sullen yarrow]

hey

why is my aoe so low

hey hey

any weak aura for the pyramide trinket

[loud brook]

we gonne get nerfed are we

[lucid jackal]

Why would we?

[night sparrow]

bc no rogue fun allowed

Actually 0 nerfs, gfood patch for us

[jagged bear]

Because exile was top damage on their kill

[lucid jackal]

Is warlock/mage getting nerfed for being top damage on council?

[karmic trench]

They still only brought 1 rogue. There were multiple mages warlocks and ele shams along the way.

[lucid jackal]

Yeah lol

2 mages 2 warlocks 2 shamans = talking about rogue nerf

[hollow spear]

Also, if you talk about the top guilds specifically, their rogues got blessing of the autumn on 2nd platform. Gl doing that with more than one rogue

[lucid jackal]

Just to review the WF comp

It was triple ele, double destro, double arcane

and multiple people have asked "Yo are they gonna nerf rogue"

[hollow spear]

Smells like a rogue nerf guy

Stop coping

[shrewd lantern]

caster players aint known for their brains

well

[lucid jackal]

burst damage copium

[jagged bear]

Because the rogue did the most damage…it’s not that crazy to speculate lmao

[shrewd lantern]

except firedup is kind of a chad

[hollow spear]

Idk it is kinda crazy to speculate

[lucid jackal]

I don't think theres a single spec in raid that is worthy of a nerf rn

[hollow spear]

So what, the one rogue they gave external stuff is top on the meters

[shrewd lantern]

nerf dev

[lucid jackal]

Maybe ele could use a nerf

[hollow spear]

Yeah ele

[icy mulch]

nerf mages just for good measure

[lucid jackal]

but like eh

[shrewd lantern]

https://www.twitch.tv/imexile/clip/CourageousBlushingClintmullinsTriHard-MV4OCo4OeCirf5Yd
this clip sends me no matter how many times i watch it

[lucid jackal]

This raid is mega well balanced

[shrewd lantern]

[hollow spear]

Ele goes a bit too crazy

[lucid jackal]

Yeah but like, it's kinda fine

Lke its OP yk

But its also not

[clever delta]

ele is just like monks last season

nobody really play them so they allowerd them being good for tier

[shrewd lantern]

I'd like to play a class

[hollow spear]

I think without tuning the delta will get bigger for most guilds than it was for the top dogs

[shrewd lantern]

that doesnt have 3-4 paragraphs worth of bugs.

That'd be cool.

[hollow spear]

Playing sub in raid on the pure st bosses is slightly depressing

[shrewd lantern]

watching people say fatebound sin is good design

then resisting the urge to slam my desk when tier bugs

[lucid jackal]

Play a different video game

But also like none of the sub bugs do anything

[shrewd lantern]

yeah its sin's turn with the bugs now

[lucid jackal]

Like oh no, finality doesn't work on coup, that affects the rotation so much

A random 0.2% talent could be 0.4%!!

[hollow spear]

I didn't even think it was good design tbh, it just sims well (and performs decently if it doesn't bug)

[lucid jackal]

Fatebound sin is chill

[shrewd lantern]

idk how anyone thinks fatebound is "good" design

[lucid jackal]

Big KB and the CD is fun

[shrewd lantern]

its the base spec

[lucid jackal]

Yeah and?

[shrewd lantern]

i dont think any rogue hero tree is good design tbf

[lucid jackal]

I like most of it

[shrewd lantern]

compared to any other class really

then you have ones like slayer warrior which are also boring

but dont really troll

[hollow spear]

Fatebound is kinda lame and deathstalker needs a rework for sub

[shrewd lantern]

all im saying is

overall i think rogue and dh have the worst hero trees

[lucid jackal]

A hero talent "Just being the enhanced base rotation" I don't think is a bad thing

I don't think hero talents need to be "deathstalker" all the time

[hollow spear]

They really need to make the sectec cdr from trickster baseline for the spec

[lucid jackal]

I think having a very involved one, like DS, and a very passive one, like Fatebound is good

I hope the CDR stays baseline for sin tho from the current tier

[shrewd lantern]

I think very passive is just done better

if its like slayer

or even thane

[hollow spear]

Idk, ds speaks to me thematically. It's just completely ass to play.

[lucid jackal]

I fucking hate slayer

[lucid jackal]

I love DS sin most of the time

[shrewd lantern]

slayer is basically a passive tree

[hollow spear]

Yeah well sin

I'm talking sub thi

[lucid jackal]

For sub it just doesn't really work

[shrewd lantern]

i dont even mind ds sin

except

[hollow spear]

Thematically it's a great fit to sub rogue

[shrewd lantern]

when mobs dont "die"

[hollow spear]

But that's it, the rest is garbage

[shrewd lantern]

even dh's reaver mark

at least you can get it back

[azure mauve]

it aint even op

its really good in some fights

dogass in others

why would you nerf this

[dreamy root]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[jagged bear]

Does coupe do damage beyond 7 combo or is it just maxed if cast at 2+ points

[lucid jackal]

copup is +5

So if you finish at 7 its 13

and then with supercharger its another 2

[thorny ridge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stone patrol]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```

[opaque snow]

Speaking of macros

cold blood

doesnt work with a macro?

tried macroing cold blood

and its telling me spell doesnt learned

When i have it learned lol

like look

https://i.imgur.com/fFuL6NF.jpeg

the none macro cold blood

is usuable

but if you macro /cast cold blood

it doesnt work LOOL

[ripe kestrel]

my Cold blood marco works fine

[bleak night]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[opaque snow]

LOL

fucking LOL

[random comet]

neat

[rapid forum]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[rapid forum]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[rapid forum]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[cursive vapor]

you can just macro the maghar racial to shadow blades

[regal rose]

can i use macro that turns my shadow strike into backstab when im not using dance or stealth

[twilit current]

Morning, quick one. Is the correct mythic+ build taking thistle tea over cold blood?

I see a number of top rogues using cold blood in high keys?

[iron fjord]

I think it's preference, top keys also require more st which cb provides

[blissful yacht]

why its not good idea to macro Dance/Symbols/tea together?

[iron fjord]

numerically thistle tea sims better i believe

[twilit current]

Gotcha thanks

[iron fjord]

You will have instances of naked symbols (without dance)

especially in st

[twilit current]

Surely when this happens, you can still click dance and itl cast symbols anyways?

If Dance isn't available

[iron fjord]

no no, it's sub

you will have a dance

[regal rose]

does anyone kno what i said above ?

[iron fjord]

but you shouldn't use it

[cursive vapor]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[iron fjord]

as you want 2 for your cds

[cursive vapor]

dance+tea macro is fine

[blissful yacht]

thanks

[regal rose]

what about shadowstike and backstab macro

i hate having 2 seperate buttons

for those

[meager merlin]

as maghar orc you basically use racial once every 2 set of cds ?

[cursive vapor]

you can just macro the maghar racial to shadow blades

[near jetty]

guys i feel liek im doing low damage in keys

its cuz of my stats or my trinket?

im 4 set

[regal rose]

hey can someone help me out

can we macro ss and bs on same buttom or do they have to b seperate

[chrome palm]

Outside of anything rotational, you have no “on use” trinket (netherprism, lily), no enchants or gems, and really bad legs and bracers, so these things are for sure contributing to low damage

Your stats look fine, you just want to avoid haste wherever possible

[near jetty]

ah kk ty ❤️

i feel liek im not bursting enough

xDD

[chrome palm]

On use trinkets contribute massively to burst

It is also probably rotational as well

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[vale pine]

you can macro it

but

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

^ you might want to use a combinaiton of macros

this one gives you the option to use the dance button during shadow dance if you want to optimize with one additional backstab

[near jetty]

after this !.mistakes im 100% sure im rotational fcked up xD

[dusk stone]

i just had a bricked gambit from a red arrow not appearing on immunity phase last boss

is there something that triggers it

[vale pine]

#showtooltip Shadowstrike
/cast [bonusbar:1] Shadowstrike; Backstab

^ this one is for the same key for backstab/shadowstrike

[regal rose]

so its ok to macro them together is there any reason i need them seperate ?

[vale pine]

you can use both to reduce button count without sacrafices

there is one catch

[regal rose]

how much dps loss if i dont backstab before dance and if i just use ss

[vale pine]

the shadow dance macro needs to pre pressed twice to use backstab, so its:

• first press -> dance
• second press -> backstab
  (which is good, because you don't always want to use them together)

and

The 2nd macro i posted would use backstab instead of shadowstrike if you are rly fast to trigger it after presisng dance

which isn't a problem, because we would use bakcstab w/e

so more a fyi

using backstab in dance is only a small optimization

[winter wasp]

I normaly only play Assa and saw on archon.gg that its all the way bottom list. Now i think about learning subtlety... On warcraft HC logs its kinda balanced between Assa/Sub, and i dont get where which is in favor.. When do you play sub?

[vale pine]

assassination is good

what metric is it bad on?

[regal rose]

i like sin but wanted to try out sub as well

[winter wasp]

dps troughoutput

[regal rose]

im getting dumped on by dks and its frustrating

[void needle]

Sin is better on a lot of fights

[regal rose]

everyone else i compete with just not dks

[vale pine]

not seeing it

wcl statsistics heroic

mythic is too limited right now

[dusk stone]

doing the opener wrong isnt a good idea

[vale pine]

but should still show assa high, let me check

[regal rose]

@dusk stone he just said its minor loss

[vale pine]

ye

[winter wasp]

guess i quit looking at archon.gg

[hollow spear]

does anyone of you guys know which setting in plater makes the debuffs on a monster only show up once its below a certain duration?

[vale pine]

assassination is statistically currently good

the wfr did play sub over assa because of its unique set of trade offs compared

[void needle]

In practice too, I've seen sin performance in raid

[vale pine]

which is better on the last 2 figths

[winter wasp]

thought archong.gg just uses wcl, what do they use?

[vale pine]

they do

[tulip gorge]

race is over, time to get nerfed

[void needle]

And forgemaster

There's 3 or 4 insane sub fights this tier

[vale pine]

so archon

did put sub ahead of assa for m+ because more players paly sub atm

*play

[void needle]

That's a first

[regal rose]

@vale pine how much of a dps loss u think it is if i dont backstab before dance will it mess up my burst ?

[vale pine]

and this is the raid list

sooo

sub looks even worse there

[dusk stone]

this raid list is wild

[vale pine]

oh, throughput

interessting

[frail trout]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

What are we in c tier for in the first pic?

[tepid trellis]

they dont

[vale pine]

is that based on "MAX" log?

[regal rose]

is it normal to get gapped by dks in m+

[tulip gorge]

so sub is actually getting nerfed

[vale pine]

hmm i should read what they base it on^^

isn't it popularitiy of the top % of keys?

[regal rose]

what u mean getting nerfed

[vale pine]

or what metric do they use

[violet palm]

zac is skewing all statistics

[void needle]

They can't nerf sub

There isn't a way possible, number tweaks will kill the spec

[vale pine]

i am still not knowing

[vale pine]

where "throughput comes from

[tepid trellis]

and parses is just parse numbers

[vale pine]

ye m+ score

so this means more of the players who run the top keys

[tepid trellis]

the throughput number is just the 95th percentile in that key bracket

[vale pine]

use subtlety

than assasisntion?

[autumn flame]

Assa kinda bugged atm

[vale pine]

the throughput was from raid

[short radish]

[regal rose]

what spec is better for higher keys

[short radish]

how are there more outlaw parses than sub

[tepid trellis]

and the number of parses is just that, the number of parses in that bracket

[regal rose]

and does sub have more single target ?

[void needle]

No

Far less

[vale pine]

tho like

95%tile

[tepid trellis]

thats dmg in those brackets

[vale pine]

both look about equal

[tepid trellis]

sub's avg is probably a bit higher than out of the norm with that low amount of parses

looks to be just people that one trick sub that plays it

[hollow spear]

Dw

[vale pine]

yes

[hollow spear]

I'm in there lowering the numbers

[vale pine]

basically more of the top r.io rogue players

pal sub atm

which does not mean much, because its early in the tier

[void needle]

Yeah, idrk how to play sin or care to. Shits boring

[jagged flicker]

!macro

[vale pine]

and most push groups are focused on raiding

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

^ i still don't know how sin is so low in raid throughput

because 95%tile is kinda

about equal

[tepid trellis]

thats the wrong way to look at it, there are more Assa high IO players but there is also like 6 times the low

so their avg gets dragged down

[rapid forum]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[mortal bronze]

yo was chilling this season till now, which of the builds do we play in keys? I see 2 different ones player - the one linked here in the pins with finality, or the other build i see people in high keys (last season build) with The Rotten the go to?

[vale pine]

fair

probably same for raiding then

[tepid trellis]

very likely

especially in the hc bracket

[hollow spear]

Most sub players are in here worrying about choosing between the rotten and tornado

[vale pine]

its 2500 assa parses

vs. 500 sub

[void needle]

How many of the top end players are putting in pulls on sin though? Sub is THE prog spec, and this tier examples that really well

[hollow spear]

Which makes no difference

[vale pine]

so 5x the parse count

[fringe palm]

Sims about equal, you can play either imo

[compact violet]

Hi i'm wondering why we're not maccroin sectec and sod ?

[vale pine]

it depends on the tier tho

sub is the progress spec with a tier design that benefits from the dynamic/burst

not every tier had this benefit, the last two did

[tepid trellis]

its gonna end up being the same as always, sub is the go to on the harder bosses for the top 100 people

[vale pine]

even tho

[tepid trellis]

after that bosses gets gutted and Assa creeps back in

[vale pine]

last tier the last 2 ended up assassiantion favored

especially because gally was a pushover

so the 2nd to last boss was actually the "last boss"

[hollow spear]

I'd argue gally wasn't assassination favoured

[vale pine]

it wasn't but it did not matter

mugzee was the big problem of the raid

[tepid trellis]

for overall dmg it was, for helping prog it was sub

[vale pine]

and it was clearly assassiantion favored

thoo

[fringe palm]

If both specs are even theres 0 reason to ever touch sub on prog

[vale pine]

maybe also not true

the no parry for the entire raid

[hollow spear]

Not sure I agree with that

[void needle]

Bring back my raid buff

[vale pine]

was probably undervalued, and would make sub even better on mugzee

at least you could argue that

[tepid trellis]

id argue if it wasent for FB assa's dumbass loss of boss dmg with multiple targets close to the boss

you wouldve seen Assa on last 2 and not sub

[vale pine]

^

[void needle]

Yeah, fuck that. If they're even they can't fucking stop me from playing sub 😤

[fringe palm]

With the parry remove bug sure, otherwise sub needs more uptime etc for the same result

[fringe palm]

Dmg Amp on last boss is too short. Nexus king yeah

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure you can quick ramp it and get good value as assa as well

[hollow spear]

I guess it depends on what "even" means then. Sub's damage profile and the flexible dances are always nice imo.

[void needle]

If the damage amp is too short, how did sub top damage on the only mythic kill?

[tepid trellis]

sub has almost no ramp time to start burst

[hollow spear]

You don't have flexibility with kb, you have to send if you don't want to delay.

[tepid trellis]

Assa has a bit

[fringe palm]

Dmg Amp is 15(?)sec, sub gets most of burst in

[hollow spear]

Yeah

[tepid trellis]

but you can eliviate that by having cps ready going in

fwiw dm is 16 seconds long

same as blades

[chrome palm]

I think sub also benefits from double on use in a way sin didn’t which seemed to be good on dimensius right?

[tepid trellis]

Assa can do that too

[chrome palm]

But isn’t it a greater loss for sin

[fringe palm]

You can't play antenna so the loss is smaller for assa aswell

[tepid trellis]

dunno 2x on-use hasent been really looked into for assa

[hollow spear]

My feelycraft says that it should be a tad worse

[tepid trellis]

its purely timer based

[hollow spear]

Because their in between kb is quite strong with the set

[tepid trellis]

if the timings are good for it, its gonna be good

Assa's dm burst is almost as high as sub's burst

so

[vale pine]

don't give people reason to not paly sub

[regal rose]

how come somtimes i burts 20 mill others i cant get above 13 mill

i dont get it

[tepid trellis]

proc 2 set better

get more coups

[fringe palm]

Give it two balance patches you know what's coming xd

[vale pine]

subtlety buffs ofc ^^

[void needle]

Isn't one of the tierset bonuses cdr on Kingsbane and dm? I thought sin could play on 45/1:30 timers

[tepid trellis]

yes they play 90s

as Fatebound

[hollow spear]

Seeing perfecto and exile get autumn on 2nd platform and knowing that will never be me

[tepid trellis]

im gonna get autumn on nexus + dimensius

[void needle]

I never even thought about that

I need that in my life

[hollow spear]

I'll first have to ask my RL to make our devs switch to aug

[void needle]

Gl with that lmao

[hollow spear]

Then I'll bribe our pally

[fringe palm]

Why should they, dev is really good on most fights

[hollow spear]

Wdym? To make me feel better ofc

[void needle]

I can't even convince my priests to stop giving me pi because they all use the same shitty addon

I need to find the developer for that addon so I can tell him to remove us from the priority list, we get no benefit from it. I would rather my dk or mage gets it

[hollow spear]

Always hilarious if you run a key with an arcane mage and the priest gives you pi because you're higher on the meter

[void needle]

^

Always

[hollow spear]

One time it was a premade

That arcane mage must have been malding

[void needle]

Or the more advanced addons that track cd usage, so I get it everytime I pop flag

[violet palm]

Even a tank, if it's not brew

[fringe palm]

They also don't gain much

More than sub though

[void needle]

I know every tank benefits more from it than we do

[open coral]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[regal rose]

which rogue spec does the most single target for m+ for bosses

[void needle]

I keep getting pi'd over my havoc buddy I key with a lot. He doesn't really care, but I get tilted. I'll say I dont want it before the dungeon starts, I dont benefit from it, send pi on the dh on cd we will get far more value

[opal basalt]

ironically not

havoc and sub both dont really like pi

[void needle]

Its better than me

[opal basalt]

sub has like 2.66% for opener, aldrachi like 3.17%

i think thats within variance

raw values 242k sub vs 241k havoc

(in single target ofc)

so idk, pi is just shit on both of you

doesnt matter who gets it rly

[vale pine]

subtlety

[opal basalt]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vR2mvnqtoXNlUoL-WvrwYdXfzAVULMSx82oKrGCj4z6XhEabUl8EtqoFLnAD4q4bNUTgE8tVP0-oJ9W/pubhtml#

i took the numbers from this sheet

taking the 40s opener numbers to be precise

[short radish]

those 500 sub parses are also likely stacking buffs

probably dont have that data

but i wonder how many of those parses dont have a shaman in the group

[hollow spear]

I don't apply to groups without a shaman

[opal basalt]

saaaame bro

[void needle]

Do we even have pi apl for sub sims? Where are they getting these numbers?

[opal basalt]

always trying to get an rsham in

[void needle]

^

[hollow spear]

Wdym pi apl

[void needle]

Best healer rn

[hollow spear]

I think the only thing pi gives us is more sht stacks

[void needle]

I think the sim just send it on cd

[round latch]

pi is gud for sin dunno about sub

[void needle]

Not during any particular event. The max dps output is unknown because it sends it on 2 minutes because nobody has bothered writing a Sim apl

[violet palm]

Wasn't it Kush who wrote PI wa and moved DKs way up in prio list?

[void needle]

I mean dks actually did massively benefit from it with gargoyle

[hollow spear]

Yeah I think so haha

Uhdk still loves it

[void needle]

Outside of gargoyle its nowhere near as valuable

[keen dome]

Saladbar heroic down in a pug 🙏

[void needle]

The dps increase during gargoyle is insane because it scales linearly with haste

Feral is the best pi rogue spec by miles

Where's the feral channel in this discord?

[near jetty]

we start fight with backstep?

[vale pine]

shadowstrike

[near jetty]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[near jetty]

in pic here he started with backstep

[vale pine]

the picture in the link above cuts out the first ability use

[near jetty]

ah kk

so we shadowstrike

then backstep?

for UB buff?

[vale pine]

see

we only strike

[paper siren]

What do you guys think about Symbiosis embellishment?

[void needle]

Holy shit guys I blue parsed forgemaster without 4 piece and using the wrathstone trinket

[vale pine]

nice

[void needle]

This is the first time I've ever seen my ilvl parse lower than my overall lmao

Usually I'm the underdog, just less geared. I destroy ilvl parses hit pinks all the time

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[void needle]

I also blue parsed Sentinel and loomithar

Lower population on those two i suppose

[blissful yacht]

anybody can tell me more details about that symbols boosting some combo points? cant find any talnet regards that

[void needle]

But forgemaster is unheard of

[void needle]

Its in the class tree not the spec tree

Supercharger I think its called

Bottom middle

[blissful yacht]

oooh thanks

[void needle]

Np

[paper siren]

When i simed 2x Elemental focus lens compared to Symbiosis and writhing it was a 10k increase for symbiosis, would it be better to run that?

[hollow spear]

The truth is that it doesn't matter

[void needle]

True

10k is kinda nothing

None of the embellishments really mean anything

[paper siren]

F

[void needle]

Just having one is the biggest dps jump you'll get

[round latch]

the one u know to play better

[void needle]

True

[hollow spear]

Fwiw, I'm running ascendance on weapon and lens on ring atm

Fatebound assa likes ascendance and it's even for sub vs lens

[void needle]

Why tf am I top 20% of sub rogues in m+ rating? What are yall doing

[round latch]

fatebound likes to writhing that ascendance though

[vale pine]

ascendance is not bad on sub

[round latch]

was so proud to see sub doing the big pumps on dimensius

[paper siren]

^^^

[vale pine]

we are happy to see play in both m+ and raid

can't ask for much more

we will see if this continues

[round latch]

called that a month ago,stealthi was like dooming

[vale pine]

also its unclear what will happen next xpac

because one interview did say they want to make all specs

"easy to learn/play"

[round latch]

my magic ball too foggy atm

[vale pine]

which subtlety is currently somewhat in a gray area

[void needle]

😡

If they touch my baby ill kill them

[paper siren]

L blizz

[vale pine]

subtlety has a lot of room for simplification, qol and more obviouse mechanics

but like

[void needle]

There's a limit

[vale pine]

looking at how they "fixed" tea

i am unsure i want to be simplified

[void needle]

True fuck that

[round latch]

hardly doubt any tuning will happen from now on,only buffs before the xpac squeeze

[void needle]

Let me choose when to use it

[vale pine]

we will see

as stealthi pointed out

the main reason subtlety saw play

is fatebounds inverse target scaling

[void needle]

Just because I'm energy starved doesn't mean I want to waste my master cd

[vale pine]

if fatebound would not lose damage with more targets

[void needle]

Quite the opposite

[vale pine]

you would not have seen sub in the wfr

but thats purely a mind experiment, because it has these trade offs

[round latch]

sub is just a better spec for that fight

[vale pine]

our burst is exact the same

[round latch]

[vale pine]

fatebound assassiantion on st

i just a better tuned subtlety

kinda

but yes

in m+, we choose talents which give low trade offs between st/aoe

[void needle]

Just wait for our simplification. We just press shadow blades and its a dot that deals 200m damage over 16 seconds

[vale pine]

and we can utialize double on use well

i am happy if subtlet stays played

i can't predict if this will be the casse

[keen dome]

I will always play Sub

It's such a good shotcaller spec for pug leading

[void needle]

^

[keen dome]

Also moving CD's around in pugs is pretty huge

[void needle]

I pretty much only play feral and sub. Little bit of outlaw prior to this season. Nothing else is fun

Ive tried

[keen dome]

I like Prot Pal quite a lot

shield go brr

[void needle]

Dps wise

I fuck with druid of the claw guardian

[round latch]

im playing mage lately

[keen dome]

I like dotc guardian a lot

[void needle]

Catweaving as guardian is so fun

Ive gotta gear a guardian, we do so much damage as dotc

[devout portal]

are all guides equal or is one guide better?

[marble thistle]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[round latch]

pretty much the same,Fuu's is more educational

[void needle]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[void needle]

Yeah, I use wowhead majority of the time

Most in depth by far

[round latch]

raccoonlord wont reveal the true sub tech

keeps it for himself

[haughty rose]

with the netherprism, do we still use it on pull with potentially 0 stacks? or do we try to ramp up somehow?

[round latch]

100parse culture

[void needle]

Eleem is great and he knows a ton about the spec, but the icy veins guide doesn't really show it

[spring elm]

do you ever send sectec outside of dance

[void needle]

Use it second blades usually. Stacks cap at 18 which we hit by 3rd cds. So dont hold it too much, but you will get more burst with higher stacks

[void needle]

Yes in your opener actually

You send it just with symbols after using both dances

[haughty rose]

second blades should be 9 stacks right? it's ok to send it there and not on 3rd?

[void needle]

Yeah that's fine. You hold if you want more damage for amp or add phases. But you can use it as a 1:30 cd with every blades after your first set

[spring elm]

Ok ty. Was looking thru logs and noticed a rogue used it outside of dance. I did notice it kinda sits off CD for awhile during downtime

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[void needle]

The cooldown reduction for sectech is quite significant. Ive run into situations where you dry sectech occasionally, but most of the time you at least use it with a symbols charge

[brave moth]

Thought on these talents. They at least seems to sim better. And The First Dance is kinda cringe to play.

[limpid sage]

How do you guys open in Priory? The footmen have a tendency of using the dr the second I press sectec everytime

[brave moth]

Delay it abit and just use blind

[limpid sage]

Ye okay so nothing I’m not already doing

They’re so annoying

[brave moth]

Yp they are

[void needle]

This is what I run, except I am a thistletea enjoyer

[limpid sage]

Also desynced perma

So you can blind them and then the next ones start straight after

Vdh angle maybe

[brave moth]

I ran a key with Thistle tea last dung. Just this one sims the best. I think without Thistle tea and Energy this build will be shit

[void needle]

Im also a exhilarating execution enjoyer

I dont have too much faith in healers, plus the damage absorption helps with harder hitting mechanics

[void needle]

You simmed single target didnt you?

[near jetty]

is there any macros for symbot/shadowdance?

[void needle]

Thistle tea sims higher in aoe

[brave moth]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uo4AYxuqqwCgx5mAjay5WL

[void needle]

It shows m+++ 2 as the top sim, that's the one with thistletea right?

[brave moth]

Gimme sec resimming.

[void needle]

From my experience thistle tea is about 2% higher in 10 target aoe

[brave moth]

Oh ya actually with Thistle. I think it sims better just cuz I have more energy (and obv some mastery) Because If I use Shurinek Tornado with only 100 energy I will lose casts

[rocky ocean]

no tfd = trash

[void needle]

Plus talenting vigor is very nice in m+

[brave moth]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nmyHMSqv5v9g4ERyewnEMH

Ya thistle tea sims best

gonna run this

[void needle]

Helps with downtime a lot

[brave moth]

Tfd is trash imo

[void needle]

Tfd is quite good

[tepid trellis]

tfd is quite the opposite of trash

its quite fucking good

[void needle]

That's actually the one thing I run opposite to you

[brave moth]

I just don't like it that much. In prem grps might be gut. But in pugs aint that gut

[rocky ocean]

especially when the reload timer is snappier this season

[void needle]

Sub doesn't care about damage outside of cds, if you have to sit your ass in the cuck corner in stealth and wait 6 seconds to enter combat you better fucking do it

Because the damage diff is insane

[brave moth]

You havent seem how some tanks are chain pulling

[void needle]

Believe me I have

[brave moth]

5% of health left of the pack and he pulls next pack

[tepid trellis]

even if you dont get that many resets

its still a rediculously strong talent

[void needle]

Sometimes you dont have an opportunity to stealth but everytime you do, you still get far more value from it than the other options

[tepid trellis]

you can also just press vanish at the end of pack and just sit in the cuck chair and wait for tfd

[brave moth]

Oke I will stay in the cuck chair fuck that

[void needle]

Don't waste the vanish charge, just meld pot

[brave moth]

Is meld pot on the same cd as the Tempered potion ?

[tepid trellis]

yes

so use vanish instead lmfao

[void needle]

Damn, I haven't gotten any yet

I was coping that it would just be free

The only reason I know about them is because my dwarf paladin tank meld skipped on floodgate

I was like tf?

[hollow spear]

Tfd is absolutely insane

Even with absolutely crazy chain pulling, you'll get 5+ each run

And it's not like we're losing out insane value by choosing it

[void needle]

Ive never chained out of a boss, so at least 3 plus start of dungeon guarantees 4 uses

Plus vanish/shadow meld angles. If you minmax you get even more value

Let's put it this way tfd is so good you take it in any raid fight under 6 minutes

And that is ONE use

[hollow spear]

If you simmed incl predisorienting and symbols you could probably get to somewhere between 7-8 minutes

[autumn sand]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[limpid sage]

nelf master race

[void needle]

Nah

Dracthyr

Its one thing to be sneaky as an elf, but imagine letting a fuckin dragon sneak up on you. Embarrassing

[terse crag]

Hey guys, not a sub player but a tank wondering how the spec works a bit better in m+.

• How much damage is gained from raid buffs particularly skyfury Vs warrior buff Vs mystic touch.

• How important is allowing restealths and when to chain pulls

• does sub prefer big pulls occasionally with all cds Vs consistent 5-7 mob pulls with 1 major priority mob.

[void needle]

I love you

[short radish]

We love you

[vale pine]

#1 skyfury is big, mystical touch is good to have

[void needle]

Your the tank I want to see in this world

[vale pine]

#2 restealth is not important, but downtime can be benefitial

the first dance has a 6 sec timer, so if your sub rogue can get this downtime from a diffrent route thats a big gain for the next pull

[terse crag]

How big are we talking, when taking a shaman Vs say a hunter or warrior?

[vale pine]

#3 subtlety likels big pulls

[limpid sage]

skyfury is slightly above warr buff

[vale pine]

give me a sec

[limpid sage]

monk buff is half iirc

[tribal blade]

i'm not sure why people keep trying to reinvent the wheel

[void needle]

We even benefit from demon hunter buff a fair bit, dont be afraid to invite us to caster comps. We feel right at home in both physical and magic comps. A lot of us carry jumpercables and even though we dont benefit from haste overmuch drums too. A good comp is a comp with sub rogue... Please invite us to keys 🙏

[void needle]

Ok but double finality is actually really good

Rotten and inev are dead

[tribal blade]

you think so?

i don't think so

[limpid sage]

def not

[void needle]

Nah, terrible talent the rotten is abysmal

[tepid trellis]

inev allows for full TFD sod coverage

[vale pine]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ss5Z3Y9Ne2XKJ5gKxUGDQd

[void needle]

I'll drop a point in finality for inev

[vale pine]

^ inev def. has some value in terms of burst

[tribal blade]

you're also talenting PV to do your build

[vale pine]

rotten is probably discussable especially with better gear and more crit

[tribal blade]

which is a useless talent

[round grotto]

Do you guys ever swap spec talents in raid ? Or do you run the ST build all the way

[tepid trellis]

also finality is bugged with coup

[terse crag]

Thank you

[void needle]

How else do you talent?

[limpid sage]

wait skyfury has dropped in value since s2?

[void needle]

What isn't

[limpid sage]

or I guess it scales with uptime nvm

[vale pine]

skyfury drops in value in dungeon slice yes

because its a mixed fight style

[tribal blade]

this

[vale pine]

i like this

[tribal blade]

oh he's running tea atm

[vale pine]

maybe rotten -> finality

[tribal blade]

not tea*

i'm running tea

[vale pine]

i did run both

both seems fine

[tribal blade]

yeah i guess i'm being too harsh

both are prob fine

but dropping TFD is not good

you should definitely pick up TFD

[void needle]

I also drop rs for tornado

[tribal blade]

that's also not good

RS is way better than nado

[void needle]

Tornado burst is very good

[vale pine]

tornado is not that bad

you would use it during symbols on more targts

so its not only a filler

[void needle]

Tornado sims higher too no?

[vale pine]

yes

its more or less the aoe talent

but you don't play sub for aoe

so typically play rs instead

[tepid trellis]

everytime nado munches my shadowcraft one more child starves

[void needle]

Oh that's fine

[tepid trellis]

to me it is not

[void needle]

I drop shadowcraft for 2nd point in finality

[tepid trellis]

so i dont play it

ew

[vale pine]

it feels bad

but thats very old feedback

tornado just feels like it was designed in Legion

(which it was)

[void needle]

Lmao

True

[vale pine]

and did not change with updates to the rotation/spec

so it is designed against diffrent sets of constraints

[void needle]

But going into dance sod and spamming sectech into 3 finishers will never not push my burst dps up to 20m

[tribal blade]

notlikethis

[void needle]

😂

[tribal blade]

despair

[void needle]

Im the evil sub rogue

But I blue parse in hc raid without 4 set and champ trinkets

Champ wrathstone at that, I blue parse with tw trinkets 😆

[tribal blade]

hrm it looks like running CB might be the move

[void needle]

I just like to run goofy uncomfortable talents

[tribal blade]

the top 2 sub rogues are running it in keys atm

i need to test it out

[void needle]

It is better in st and prio damage

And not really that much worse in aoe

That's the one comfort pick I do take, I like vigor and thistle tea

[tribal blade]

if it's mostly equal i prefer tea

[void needle]

But I'm getting tons of crit this late into the expansion, which allows me to drop rotten and cb and still get insane value

[tepid trellis]

1% boss dmg for 1% AoE

is the trade off

[void needle]

I do think that lethality is good though

[tepid trellis]

if only the crit dmg flurried

[void needle]

True

Why I think rotten is bad and would rather path right side tree to silent storm and keep my tornado and double finality

But I've also played with neither and fw uptime from shuriken is still pretty consistent

I do like lethality, cold blood in the class tree so I can pick up soothing dark. Comes in clutch sometimes

Unfortunately a lot of rot damage in dungeons cancels it like a bitch

[tribal blade]

it feels way better having tea talented for aoe

on the dummies

easier to hit feint

if it's mostly equal yeah i'm running tea

[void needle]

True, but in cds feint is basically free to press, the rest of the time you need to calm down and let some energy pool

[tepid trellis]

or play Tea and not worry

and no bigger AoE

do*

=profit

[warped zodiac]

the only problem i have with tea is the auto consume at sub 30 energy or whatever

[void needle]

That's my secret cap, I always profit

Hate that I hate it I hate it I hate it

[tepid trellis]

good thing it doesent matter then, just vibe

[void needle]

Tell blizz to stop taking the initiative away from players

[tepid trellis]

they wanted less buttons

so they took one away

it is what it is

[void needle]

Its still a button!

[pearl charm]

In the top log on mythic plexus sentinel, im noticing a pattern of using secret technique before shadow blades everytime. Why is this beneficial?

[tepid trellis]

its not

he is just being slow

[pearl charm]

its consistent, and he has the #1 log. Something right is being done, no?

[tepid trellis]

its week 2 of the raid

so not really

more factors go into parses

than playing your rotation 100% correct

the correct way to using blades is together with sectech to buff your hardest hitting ability with 20%

[tribal blade]

thing is you can't just press feint only in cds

you need to press feint when you're gonna take significant dmg

whenever i don't run tea i have to kind of preplan feint usage, and can't really reactive last second hit it

[pearl charm]

Im seeing the same thing in the #2 log though, but maybe youre right and its early season shenanigans

[tribal blade]

which is really bad sometimes in keys

[void needle]

What I was saying is dont hump 0 energy

[gentle venture]

anyone know if exile was just running the stock sub spec? his armory has blank spec

[void needle]

Armory is bugged, no clue what he was doing

[tepid trellis]

single target without TFD

[tribal blade]

your energy is gonna be bricked no matter what you do with 100 energy sub sadly

[void needle]

I dont have an issue with energy for feint, slow your cadence by a half breath outside cds

[tribal blade]

#bringback35energystorm

[tepid trellis]

nvm he ran stock Single target

just checked

[void needle]

Feint is so cheap its basically free

[tribal blade]

feint is 1/4 of your energy bar with 100 energy

[void needle]

But I hear you, like I said I enjoy vigor tea far more

[tribal blade]

with 300 energy sin in aoe yes it's free 😉

as sin you can press feint literally whenever in aoe

it's very nice

pushing as sin last season you get used to kind of maintaining feint nonstop during pulls

[void needle]

Lmao, I'm like that with sub

[tribal blade]

since you can throw it out whenever

as sub i'm a bit more careful with feint usage

[void needle]

But really, who cares. Its downtime dps on a cooldown spec. I still top overalls and stay alive even if I do tank damage sometimes

[tribal blade]

i definitely do not enjoy bricked energy economy during downtime with sub

that was 1 part of the big rework i wasn't very happy about

[fair anchor]

Is the late shadowcraft refund bug back ?

[void needle]

Back? When did it leave?

XD

[tribal blade]

it's prob the coup thing

that's still around

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[fair anchor]

It is on coup indeed

[void needle]

Coup fucks it bad

[fair anchor]

Oh shit

I thought that shit was fixed

[void needle]

Lmao

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[fair anchor]

Like i track shadowcraft stack so i kinda expect it but it feels terrible

[void needle]

Yep. Drop shadowcraft for finality

[tribal blade]

yeah it does not feel good

[void needle]

XD

[tribal blade]

you either delay slightly after coup or risk eating a refund

[void needle]

Yup

[tribal blade]

but delaying too long is bad

so it's kind of a no win situation

thing is if you drop shadowcraft that REALLY bricks your energy in cds

i think you lose a lot of ST dropping shadowcraft

[fair anchor]

There was a dark brew build running around in ptr, that's dead ? Not that i d want to play it mind you, im just curious

[tribal blade]

i think pathing for DB becomes kinda cursed

[fair anchor]

Like dark brew no shadowcraft stuff

[void needle]

That's how you do it

[tribal blade]

that's the super pad aoe build

[fair anchor]

Ah i see

[tribal blade]

with very little ST

[void needle]

Its fun lmao

[fair anchor]

Probably still more ST than assa

[tribal blade]

sub's entire identity in keys atm is having really good ST

[fair anchor]

But yeah

[tribal blade]

plus a bunch of dungeons that are timed based on how fast you do bosses

this season feels like a ST season

[void needle]

Lots of prio mobs too

[tribal blade]

yeah i was thinking about maybe playing sin in halls

[fair anchor]

Lots of dungeons are like big aoe at the start then ST/small aoe true

[void needle]

The higher I go the more I go back to using evis

[tribal blade]

halls is kind of the only hard dungeon atm

[void needle]

The nice thing about sub is the choice though

You can evis or blackpowder

[tribal blade]

that's precisely why i was thinking about playing sin in halls 😉

you don't choose

you do monster funnel into prio target while maintaining full aoe

the trash is really hard in halls

the entire first area is a nightmare

[void needle]

Ive had one good run in halls on a 12 every other run has been cursed af

[tribal blade]

i almost timed a 15 halls today

my healer ran out of mana on the 3rd boss and i died right at the very end of the fight

and lost all my prism stakcs

[void needle]

I did go from no timed halls to a 12 though the io bump was so huge

[fair anchor]

Yuck

[tribal blade]

i was saving full prism stacks to nuke the miniboss

and lost it all

[fair anchor]

With miniboss after

[tribal blade]

i did 14 halls with very good players last week

[vestal escarp]

The winner takes it all

The loser has to fall

[tribal blade]

and even with very good players it was a massive struggle

[tribal blade]

I LOST SO MUCH

i was so sad

[fair anchor]

Now we know how casters felt in S1 with spymaster lol

[tribal blade]

yeah it's rough

[urban parrot]

what belt effect should i run? mastery proc?

[tribal blade]

i don't feel terrible if i lose like less than 9 stacks

but losing 16-18 stacks

is heartbreaking

i got a "i'm so sorry" from my healer haha

he felt so bad

[void needle]

Crit or vers usually. But you can duplicate and sim them all in raidbots

[urban parrot]

ty!

[void needle]

It is funny that the trinket punishes you for dying

Makes me play better

[fringe palm]

how much overall do you have in halls? idk if assa does more, depending on comp the funnel is also less relevant

[tribal blade]

it's kind of hard to say because every single halls is scuffed as hell

a lot of tanks doing tons of kiting

people falling over

but like 8mil plus usually

i'm sure 9-10 with a good run

[mint swift]

Does anyone have that thing that shows the variance on a sim?

Or how to sim it rather

[tribal blade]

i have yet to have a good halls run

[void needle]

Bro this presevoker kept tail sweeping packs into more mobs on my 14 attempt

[tribal blade]

halls tends to become more about pressing kicks and cc

because it's so easy to die in there

[fringe palm]

i see, guess it got really lucky with timing the only halls i played xd

[void needle]

He was the highest io out of all of us, but we wipe everytime he pulls more shit like that

[tribal blade]

depends on the level i guess

[vestal escarp]

Still havent played a halls above 10 as sub

[fringe palm]

15

[tribal blade]

oh nice!

[vestal escarp]

Imagine playing it as SL s2

[tulip gorge]

sub with vigor and tea is so much comfier to play

[tribal blade]

yeah the 15 i attempted was pretty cursed

very close to timing sadly

[fringe palm]

ill have to play some more to have a real opinion on spec choice there

[tribal blade]

i had a death where i got double bolted with the obliterator's debuff on me

i got deleted off the face of the earth

i'm spamming meld/vanish/evasion/cloak

feint

but eventually you run out of stuff

[void needle]

Its crazy because the 12 I did time was perfect, we fucking 2 chested it with no deaths. Like how does every other group I join become nightmare fuel within the first 5 minutes

[tribal blade]

that's just how keys go

during DF i timed a 29 rise with squishvegan

he just threw the key in with no planning

and carried us through it

it makes such a difference when you run with amazing players

if i get another 15 halls i'm gonna find a prot pal to run it with

a good prot pal is amazing soloing kicks

[void needle]

That's the guardian druid right? I think I've run into them in pugs before

[tribal blade]

yeah