subtlety

[lucid jackal]

They did they just didn't think it was worth playing.

And then it was shown to be OP

[bleak night]

liquid didnt play rogue on araz until they saw echo do it

but exile is a proper sub rogue

[fierce minnow]

something has to go really really wrong with tuning that those 2 dont play rogue

[lucid jackal]

I think they are just full time bench before not playing rogue

[fierce minnow]

yes

[lucid jackal]

But idk

[fierce minnow]

thats basically the case

[swift hollow]

Exile is such a beast gamer

[dusk stone]

oh so what it was was pulling them off the bench ig

[hybrid compass]

yeah its just my brain not remembering keybinds yet and im trying to get ruptures on gather for more damage but then im like crashing out on the actual pull with what should I press and how etc

[lucid jackal]

Correct

[fierce minnow]

well whenever there is an amp to blast you call for your rogues

[lucid jackal]

No guild prepped double rogue so

I doubt they can just summon another fully geared and abled sub rogue if they wanted

[dusk stone]

am i correct in understanding it might actualy be better for dimensius though

ive seen exile topping overall a lot

[fierce minnow]

most guilds dont even have 2 full time rogue players xD

[lucid jackal]

Yeh

We've played double rogue all tier

[bleak night]

daizr has a rogue but maybe only outlaw

[lucid jackal]

But we're on saladar rn

[spice matrix]

[keen patrol]

but do i first press flag and shadow dance then blades?

[fierce minnow]

wowhead guide has some nice infographics

[steel horizon]

You flag then use a finisher. Then you use dance and blades

Not flag and blades at the same time

[plush roost]

Btw how did double sub on soul hunters feel? Or is it such a nerfed fight that its a "who cares" situation now

I figured assa was the play for sure but watching how the bosses stack for cd windows seems really insane on sub

[dusk stone]

but also read the guide and do what the guide says sub is particular about how things are done and punishes you if you dont do it like that

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[limpid vessel]

does sub break old 4 set for 2 set?

[vale pine]

simc version

[lucid jackal]

I mean

We would ideally play only 1 on that fight and just have all casters YK

Cuz like, that fight is still kind of tight

We had a handful of 1%s

[keen patrol]

i can skipo that first symmbols in m+ right

[fierce minnow]

fuu while you are here, had some talk with Prophet earlier about SecTec clones. do the clones snapshot when you press sectec or can you press sectec and blades/trinket after sectec but before clones hit?

[ornate vale]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

clones don't snapshot

[dusk stone]

Why would you skip 1st symbols

[keen patrol]

cuz i dont go wait 20 s

in m+

before boss

[vale pine]

so you can secret and blades after and clones will get benefits

which is probably what you talked about

[fierce minnow]

trinket also?

[vale pine]

should be everything

the only thing thats snapshots is finality

[fierce minnow]

yeah thats what i am used to atm... i dance, backstab, sectec, blades

so thats fine

good

[dusk stone]

So how the symbols works is you keep supercharger stacks until you use them after the dungeon starts

[lucid jackal]

Assa is legit unplayable on that fight

Managing mark is just not realistic

[dusk stone]

This also works if there's downtime for whatever reason

[lucid jackal]

And honestly, call me a shit noob, but keeping all 3 bleeds, and caustic, and dm all at the same time is legit too much for me

Especially when blade dance hits for 15m

Where u can't just facetank shit

And then the bosses jump around

It's just effed

[ornate vale]

reroll destro lock

[fierce minnow]

bladeflurry brain engaged

[dusk stone]

What I reccomend for sub is go drill the opener Into next flag rotation on a dummy for 2 hours until it's muscle memory

[wild hornet]

so if i'm with <2 seconds of dance before casting sectec, do i cast it in the 2nd dance instead?

[vale pine]

secret clone attacks happen 1 sec after the initial hit

the best way to learn is to focus on cooldown management

basically, what i suggest is to either on a dummy or in some keys play the spec a bit

make sure to get 2x dance 2x symbols every time with flagellation/blades

and use symbols/dance/secret in between as much as you think is possible

this basically teaches you when to or not to send cooldowns

[hidden pond]

Any sub expert can tell if this looks fine or great? its echodrome +10

[vale pine]

and how to get 2x dance during your big ones every time

[fierce minnow]

now thats alot of blackpowder

[plush roost]

Fair enough, likely progging on wednesday so was interested in some insight since gn downed it

[lucid jackal]

Just don't play sin at all, that's my suggestion

Sub is solid

Or outlaw if u can play it/have gear for it

[plush roost]

Im more geared for sub rn anyway so its the likely play

No weapon for outlaw f

[lucid jackal]

Same

If I had it idve played it

[plush roost]

Yeah seems like a solid outlaw tier in general lowkey

But we craft dagger bracer so riparoo

[hidden pond]

any one?

[lucid jackal]

Rupture seems high but idk

[lucid jackal]

Yeah don't say that in the outlaw channel

[hidden pond]

idk if i should be doing more evis or thats ok? or idk thats why im asking

[lucid jackal]

But I agree

Details meters are hard to extract useful info from

[fierce minnow]

prio mob is dead? no? more eviscerate.

[lucid jackal]

Just bp on 4 targets, evis on 3 or less, or if u want prio damage

Do Ur cds properly

Details doesn't really tell u if Ur doing Cd's properly yk

It just says Ur damage

[hidden pond]

thanks

also I feel doing a bit more dmg as assa, is that alright?

[slender totem]

i dont really understand how you do the 7th evis here in the pic, you sohuldnt have cp right?

is it the cp proc mayube?

https://i.imgur.com/E4KvJih.png

after the coup

[lucid jackal]

Shadow techniques is random sometimes

[slender totem]

yeah figured

[dusk stone]

Posting a log is more helpful so we can see how your doing stuff

[dusk stone]

Is there any reason we're always suggesting two dances for flag and not 3? Flag lasts like 25 seconds

[slender totem]

you dont eviscerate at 4 plus targets in sd rotation right? only if i have coup?

[dusk stone]

It depends

[slender totem]

ugh

can this spec get more wierd

[dusk stone]

If there's a prio mob you can evis, our priority is really strong especially this tier and we bring that to the table

[slender totem]

but for pad powder?

[dusk stone]

Generally

[slender totem]

also how do i know if i can get coup if i just used 2 coups

when is it available again?

[dusk stone]

There's no internal cd on it afaik

You get 4 triggers of unseen and coup procs, the amount you've generated of unseen blades is tracked via a buff called escalating blade, when you reach 4 you get coup

[lucid jackal]

4

[slender totem]

and only way to get to 4 is thru shadowstrike

[lucid jackal]

It's not that weird in this sense it's just, bp on 4 or more, coup on any, evis on 3 or less or if you want prio damage

U just have to make a value judgement on evis vs bp on big packs

The usual answer is just press bp

[slender totem]

okey ty 😛

what would a good opener for a big pull in m+ be? could u write on down or send pic? 😄

[lucid jackal]

The exact same as the one on wowhead

[slender totem]

just as a baseline for me to work around

okey

good

im watching a vod and the dude does something else he ruptures one time only and starts blasting

and ss twice i think

[dusk stone]

It's backstab and shadow strike

[lucid jackal]

Spreading ruptures costs time, only do it when packs are grouping never delay Cd's to spread ruptures

[dusk stone]

The big aoe opener is just the rotation on the guide and the 3rd dance you get from cdr in the opener

[lucid jackal]

Because you would lose dance casts

[dusk stone]

Wdym

[lucid jackal]

You would need to sit on 2 stacks of dance to get 3 dances in your cooldowns

[sly shore]

I got a 32 stacker flawless yesterday

shit blasts

[violet palm]

!log

[slender totem]

everytime i go into next sd in my flagg/sd opener i do the backstab as first ability?

[fiery rampart]

anyone using sigil of cosmic hunt?

[slender totem]

sb

[lucid jackal]

Your first generator in single target in dance should be backstab

[sly shore]

(if you have fw active or are behind the target)

it's neutral to SS otherwise

[slender totem]

hmm wait so why do i have the sd macro combined with bs?

kinda nnoying to have

[sly shore]

not really

[lucid jackal]

Uh idk

[sly shore]

just press button

[slender totem]

yeah

[lucid jackal]

^

[slender totem]

ill just bind it

xD

[sly shore]

It sucks at first but you get used to it very quikcly

[slender totem]

so for aoe first abilty after sd shouldnt always be bs`?

yeah

im new

sorry

for spam

[sly shore]

you can if you want but in aoe not as strong

[dusk stone]

All good we don't mind

[sly shore]

can do sstorm even

cos of the rotten

so you spread FW more

[dusk stone]

So the reason you use bs after dance is because you get a buff called premeditation which causes the next builder to give full CP, and also generates a danse macabre stack

[left ledge]

Ngl

I did not think they’d find the damage for this

[dusk stone]

Boss die?

[left ledge]

But for some reason

[sly shore]

really really well tuned boss

[left ledge]

The brewmaster is second dps rn

[hazy breach]

Not yet

[left ledge]

So

I guess I stand corrected

[sly shore]

Na

that's because he does an orb

it's "fake"

[left ledge]

Yes so do other people though

[sly shore]

it's because the others are healers

[left ledge]

So why is he up there

Oh

[sly shore]

and they aren't already doing damage

[left ledge]

Is it all healers

Ok

[sly shore]

he is

[left ledge]

I thought I saw a dps do

Is it really that much

[dusk stone]

How close is echo

[sly shore]

5%

[hazy breach]

Its 10% of the add hp in one hit

So quite fucking huge

[slender totem]

what is fw?

[dusk stone]

2% improvement then

[left ledge]

Damn

[sly shore]

find weakness

the debuff we apply to enemies using ST abilities

[left ledge]

Echo might kill here if clean

[sly shore]

backstab requires you to be behind it to apply it

[dusk stone]

Find weakness, trackable debuff spread by strike, stab and storm if storm talent is taken

[jagged rover]

theyre 5% per orb, 6 orbs, so 30%

[slender totem]

oh yeah i see

[left ledge]

I mean then the brew is still doing monstrous damage no?

[hazy breach]

Theres only 3 orbs per add is it not

[sly shore]

6

[jagged rover]

6 in mythic

[sly shore]

mythic each spawn has 2

[left ledge]

Holy this is a banger pull

[hazy breach]

ic

[jagged rover]

its something like a 400 mil hit for an orb

so if he's doing 2 its almost half his damage

[tight sparrow]

dont ban me

16 flood

double on use

[jagged rover]

I'm locked in on watching dimensius die

[vale pine]

soo close race

either just need to play p3 clean and it dies

[void hound]

perfecto cranking

that mything prism in the dmg amp

[sturdy moat]

Can you just not press shadow strike or shadowstep on p1 dimensius? I was trying it in prog yday and died instantly both times lol

[jagged rover]

shadowstep should take you to right in front of him (on top of your tanks usually)

[vale pine]

^

[jagged rover]

I haven't played it as sub yet, I'd just be careful about shadowstriking off the rip out of range

[vale pine]

just make sure to stand in melee range and you can't get teleported

[tight sparrow]

sims says change jaastor

but its bugged right now and proccing a lot

do we still swap it

[sturdy moat]

I think i got unlucky lol as soon as i stepped onto the tank i got booped into the void

And if you step while not on the ground it just kills you as well i found

[tight sparrow]

no boots btw on 16 flood i think its 10m with boots

[bleak night]

its the opposite, its bugged right now and randomly proccing very little/not at all

[tight sparrow]

frost dk

double damage

my cloak

still good i think

[jagged rover]

I need to start pushing, I want to do the bigger numbers. Tired of 7-8 mil overall in 10-12s lol

[wet idol]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[jagged rover]

I step our dps dk for the entirety of p1. Stepping dimensius is like last option if I am off the platform

[tacit void]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[tacit void]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[rocky thorn]

is there a way to ban or to not show WTS on lfg?

[alpine wraith]

you can use an addon or WA to filter things

[dusk stone]

Just report them, the ones in lfg get taken down pretty fast

[hoary moat]

anyone have a weakaura for Shadow Technique that plays a soudn when you get a combo point refill?

or know what the easiest way to make that is? im at a loss

[hazy breach]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[trim jasper]

if you mean lf m+ group you can use premade group finder and you can set ''wts'' as ignored

Sorry, I'm new to rogue subs. I was wondering if shadowdance and symbols are returning, but I'm missing a few seconds from flagellation. I'm waiting to use them to synchronize them together. Okay, but how many seconds are a few? If it's 10 seconds, do I wait, but if it's 20, do I wait or use them? So, how many seconds must be missing from flagellation for it to be worth doing SD and Symb delay? Ofc assuming a linear fight don't wait for adds/phase etc

[lucid jackal]

You stop using dance and symbols when flag/blades have 30 seconds left

[fringe island]

any elusiveness >cheat death enjoyers in the chat?

[iron plover]

im in 12s and i cant even do that 😭

[left ledge]

Literally everyone outside of raid

Even in raid sometimes I run elusive

Like on fractillus

[hoary moat]

ty

[cedar willow]

whats the purpose of shuriken storm between coup de grace

[left ledge]

To not waste UB stacks

While coup is up you consume UB but don’t gain a stack

Storm in cds makes it so that you can get the cps for your coup without wasting

[cedar willow]

makes sense

[upbeat parcel]

ok somebody tell me. sub much stronger then assa right now?

[lucid jackal]

Depends where u mean

[dusk stone]

There are sin keys and there are sub keys, in low keys it doesn't really matter. The same is true for raid fights but sin has more fights it's better in

[eager patrol]

Would u take hero loom weapon

[lucid jackal]

Uhhh

It's like 50/50 sub sin

[eager patrol]

Or champion loom trinket

[lucid jackal]

The thing is that the fights sub is good on its one of the best specs in the game

[sturdy moat]

What dungeons would you guys run dark brew in

[alpine wraith]

none

[sturdy moat]

always shadowcraft? alright

[glacial kraken]

shadowcraft fun

[dusk stone]

For keys or raid

[distant mist]

Is there any macro I can make to make handling offensive CDs easier? I'm still learning to play Sub.

[dusk stone]

Depends on what you mean

[distant mist]

i saw on wowhead that you can macro secret technique + cold blood

[lucid jackal]

Raid

[distant mist]

is there other macro that i can do? @dusk stone

[lucid jackal]

Kind of the only one other than trinket /potion/racial tied to blades

[distant mist]

ohh so thats the only one that work?

[winter harbor]

I work too much to keep up with everything now adays and im wondering now that both sin and sub are 90 second specs what is sub doing so differently on the fights that it is piping on?

[lucid jackal]

More or less, yes

[tame terrace]

theres never a time id want to throw a shadow dance without symbols right?

[lucid jackal]

Sub just does more damage concentrated into its cooldown window

This raid wants a lot of fast damage

And no spec does faster damage than sub rogue

[jagged rover]

there is, your 2nd dance in your cooldowns you usually dance 1-2 seconds before you symbols again

you want to control when you symbols

[dusk stone]

What changed? Isn't it just dimensius, araz and saladbar

[winter harbor]

oh on the burst simlulationcraft i thought they were about the same

but i havent looked in a while

[lucid jackal]

Soul hunters on mythic is 0% a sin fight

[tame terrace]

bet

gotta make sure i have a separate bind for my macro vs natty casts

[lucid jackal]

So ur gonna have a dance button, a symbols button, and then also a combined button?

[dusk stone]

It depends, it's not reccomended to macro a lot of things together.

Symbols and dance can macro but you also need seperate keybinds

Flag you never macro to anything

Blades can be macro to racial

[tame terrace]

ye

i have the spare keybinds

[glacial kraken]

best keybind is having symbols and dance on keys u can press at same time ofc

[tame terrace]

i have a cold blood macro but that shit is annoying when i spec swap

[dusk stone]

You just also need seperate keybind for both as well

[left ledge]

Tbf that fight just isn’t a rogue fight

But also to add

[lucid jackal]

It's a fine rogue fight, it's just a mega caster fight

[left ledge]

No spec rn can do as much aoe as sub without losing drastic ST

[lucid jackal]

Either way if I play rogue, u don't play sin

[glacial kraken]

what i said was seperate keybind

press both at same time buttons

[graceful osprey]

For soulbinder boss, pop nuke CDs in the beginning and then save nuke for when most of the adds spawn?

[glacial kraken]

that way don't need no macro

[tame terrace]

yea i dont have free keys for that

[left ledge]

Yeah I think sin CAN do more damage but the effort required esp when progging is probably ridiculous

[jagged rover]

I generally try to keep my cooldowns on F keys, so F1 symols F2 dance, F3 blades, F4 flag works well for me

[tame terrace]

i dont like reaching for f keys

[left ledge]

You’ll just be sweating the whole fight just to get shit on by every ranged

[tame terrace]

gotta move whole hand kinda annoying

[dusk stone]

Mouse button keybinds help a lot

[glacial kraken]

no one can make me bind anything to a function key

[tame terrace]

i dont like mouse buttons

[glacial kraken]

devil's keybinds

[tame terrace]

thumb is not my fav to use

[lucid jackal]

I mean I really tried to play sin on that fight but u need to be a literal savant and why bother

Put the shadow dance in the bag

Press blade flurry

[dusk stone]

You have all of numpad to work with and then ctrl + shift for stuff with left hand

[left ledge]

Yeah it not worth it

Cba

[tame terrace]

my thumb buttons are all opie wheels

[lucid jackal]

Let me track dm, caustic, 3 bleeds on targets that spend the entire fight flying around, and also any mechanic instantly kills you on mythic

Literally why

Put the flurry in the bag

[tame terrace]

my left hand just is better at pressing buttons

[dusk stone]

I find Logitech g502 hero is very good for mouse buttons because they are placed where your fingers sit

[jagged rover]

I tried bleed build on soul hunters when we were doing it on heroic and hated tracking bleeds. Kingsbane builds also feel terrible to play because of everything your tracking. Just going to play sub and hit dance

[left ledge]

Yep, just a shit melee fight in general

[jagged rover]

if I have outlaw weapons by then Ill play that

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean if the bosses didn’t fucking fly around

It’s just too much going on to be multi dotting

And then you play DS too

[jagged rover]

did it on lfr on my feral druid and hated it, trying to keep short rip + thrash + rake on all 3 of them while tanks don't move fast enough

[left ledge]

Just cancer

So far the only fights I’m sin for is sentinel, loom, and fract

Pure ST just not it for sub, esp fractillus

[jagged rover]

Same, planning sub for the rest

[dusk stone]

Yeah I will say sub is not bad for soulbinder sin is just better

[left ledge]

I’d say they’re equal

For soulbinder

For boss dam yeah sin

[dusk stone]

Damn we do have a solid tier for sub then

[left ledge]

It’s pretty even

[winged kernel]

we ok here? or should i reduce some mastery

[left ledge]

But I think the tough bosses are def sub favoured

[winged kernel]

lol

[jagged rover]

our evoker padded harder than me on the small add sets and stole my damage

[solemn creek]

Wait till u play with bursty class on soulbinder.. ur wont say sin is better

[dusk stone]

Get that gross haste out of here

[jagged rover]

so maybe I play sin next week on it

[solemn creek]

Im swapping to sub on reclear.. to many instant burst class in my group

[left ledge]

Sin is def a bit better than sub for soulbinder at least in terms of boss damage

[jagged rover]

I even had coups setup for the small sets and would get out bursted

[dusk stone]

Or just play deathstalker sub /S

[jagged rover]

since evoker can just rank 2 flame + engulf and pop the adds

[left ledge]

DS Sub

Maybe it’s a hidden gem guys

[dusk stone]

I will try it at some point this patch

[swift tinsel]

Ew

They made Darkest Night un-cancelaura-able so it’s even worse now

[lucid jackal]

Damage amps COPIUM

[dusk stone]

Low key I wanna see big add pull on big momma with 18 prism ds sub

[hybrid compass]

when I do the shuriken storm + BP spam in pack I should backstab from time to time to proc flawless form when not in shadow dance?

[swift tinsel]

Nah

Just worry about flawless form in dance

[dusk stone]

Flawless doesn't do anything there really

[swift tinsel]

You’ll have fw out from spreading rupture pre-cd’s and from storming between coups

[dusk stone]

But also you shouldn't be spamming storm if strike is up

[hybrid compass]

yeah i do that while in sd but i have like the assa thing that I spam FoK for cp on sub for some reason hard to get used to

[shadow lance]

Stacking some UB stack before CD allow to have more coup during it

[winged kernel]

is sub really better for keys? o.o

[swift tinsel]

Think of it like subterfuge where you’re garroting not foking

[shadow lance]

So, you can go fishing for some proc, yes

[swift tinsel]

Sub is really, really good in keys

Sin can be better under conditions

[dusk stone]

Were still on early season sub copium

[shadow lance]

Sin looks better overall

But both a kinda great atm

[left ledge]

When you start doing higher keys and pulling onto bosses, depending on how much damage onto boss you need, sin might just become the spec to play

Sub unfortunately is anti funnel

[dusk stone]

Zeross was saying unless you have super dedicated team sub is better

[fluid moth]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[left ledge]

Yeah sub is way easier to play in pugs for example

[dusk stone]

Sin does better boss dam with funnel

But like we enjoy adds on bosses too

Just for diff reason

[swift tinsel]

Ye we just delete them vs use them for boss damage

[left ledge]

Kind of ironic

[bleak night]

enjoy it for killing other peoples funnel

[left ledge]

That sub went from funnel

To the anti funnel

[swift tinsel]

There’s times each is more important

[bleak night]

[dusk stone]

Well I gotta keep the sin rogue in our group under control somehow

[fossil imp]

any reason not to run lily/prism combo?
ive seen alot of trinket combos but not this one
i have more decent choices too (sigil, pacemaker, myth track soleah)

[dusk stone]

You sacrifice a lot of trinket stat for double on use so the second on use needs to be rly good

[hazy breach]

Its an ok combo, just feels bad to skip a use of lily

[dusk stone]

I use mythic pacemaker and prism

[fossil imp]

but people run forgeweaver/prism
just not a single log of lily/prism

[hazy breach]

Like you'd use lily on pull and on 1:30 then prism on 3, into lily again at 4:30

[dusk stone]

Forge is really strong is why

[fossil imp]

sim prefers lily->lily->prism

[hazy breach]

Thats what i said

[bleak night]

thats what he said

[fossil imp]

mb lol

forgot how math works

[dusk stone]

The flavor choice of raid is interesting

[hazy breach]

People are just overhyped on double on-use, with forge its fine but not outstanding

Especially after its nerfs

[jagged rover]

double on use is terrible to play (imo), it needs to be a very good fight or setup for it for me to consider it

[dusk stone]

The dead planets they are using resemble iron cores of long dead stars

[sacred magnet]

is tea and no cb the play in m+? also the rotten is simming higher, should i use it instead of finality?

[lucid jackal]

I think the tornado tea shit is just cope

Plays like shit too

[sacred magnet]

cb is then better right?

[dusk stone]

Prob not for keys

Tea is really nice

[swift tinsel]

I honestly don’t notice tea

[dusk stone]

Tornado spreads rupture right

[hazy breach]

No

or well

[swift tinsel]

You need to press rupture

[dusk stone]

Who tf was telling me that

[hazy breach]

You can use the combo points from it to spread rupture

[swift tinsel]

It just makes it so you don’t press storm for four of them

[hazy breach]

But the spell itself doesnt spread it

[bleak night]

[alpine wraith]

you can spend the globals on rupture yes

[dusk stone]

How does the spell work

[glacial kraken]

SHuriken tornado evil

[swift tinsel]

It storms once a second for four secs

[shrewd lantern]

I thought you just

move the finality point into rotten

and call it a day

[swift tinsel]

So you can still spend globals during that time

So like people have said you can press rupture four times in a row

[lucid jackal]

Literally just play the raid build in dungeons

[swift tinsel]

If enough targets

Yeah lots of overthinking with it

[shrewd lantern]

is tfd in raid real now

[lucid jackal]

Play rs, play rotten if u want over finality

Tfd yeah

[swift tinsel]

Tfd quite good

[lucid jackal]

These tea tornado builds are just shit

No inev either

[shrewd lantern]

iirc the only raid build change

was drop imp storm for sf

wasnt it

[swift tinsel]

At one point

Or WM for tfd

[shrewd lantern]

wasnt wm for tfd s2

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[dusk stone]

So the idea is you don't spend gcds using storm for weakness because nado is doing that and theoretically you rupture during that time, is that correct

[rapid stream]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[shrewd lantern]

Now the only real diff i see is move imp storm to sf

for pure st bosses

and rotten/1 finality pt

[lucid jackal]

The idea is u press tornado outside of Cd's to spread ruptures

[swift tinsel]

Less so for fw than just spreading rupture

[lucid jackal]

It gives u cdr as well cuz it's combo points

[untold sable]

What do you guys reckon is the best spec for hard mode? Sub or assa rogue?

[cerulean summit]

can anyone tell me the difference between the two builds with sub for m+ i tried both and it seems the same overall unless im doing something wrong

[swift tinsel]

Fw is just tacked onto it

[clever delta]

i was not impressed by tea mysefel either

[lucid jackal]

Whatever u are comfy on

[dusk stone]

I'm sorry what is the rupture interaction, don't you just spread rupture outside of cds anyway

[swift tinsel]

Yes

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

So you use Nado pre-flag

Or after

Sims prefer before

[shrewd lantern]

and i guess some people say

[lucid jackal]

Just don't play tornado it's a fake button

[shrewd lantern]

take exhil execution in dungeons

[swift tinsel]

Can use after for cdr farming

[shrewd lantern]

and the heal increase in raid

[dusk stone]

Oh I see

The storms generate free cp

[swift tinsel]

yes

one per target hit like normal storm

[dusk stone]

What are you giving up for it

[swift tinsel]

the will to live

[shrewd lantern]

Is it just perma tfd even in raid build now

also yeah fuck nado

garbanzo ability

[dusk stone]

What's even the benefit

[twin quartz]

Does the vanish+shuriken storm hack still reset tfd in combat?

[swift tinsel]

'easier' rupture spread

and a bit of increased cdr if you use it later

[dusk stone]

You literally have tea

[swift tinsel]

what does that do for rupture

you tea into dances

[alpine wraith]

tornado is very good on 3 things to prep a super dance with 2 extra disorients, to get cdr or to spread ruptures fast

[swift tinsel]

where energy is free and you don't rupture

[dusk stone]

It's sometimes up outside of cds and also makes spreading rupture easier because energy

[swift tinsel]

if you play tea you have vigor plus relentless so energy is free outside cds too

[alpine wraith]

you can try it send a naked sec tech into tornado 4 finishers stab finish then go into dance

quad coups

[dusk stone]

Nah it's still rough sometimes

[frigid prawn]

on how much targets do I use bp?

[alpine wraith]

4 or more

[swift tinsel]

maybe i need to all caps my name

lol

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[frigid prawn]

Sorry I had to do that😂

[swift tinsel]

lmao i'm just being a butt

[plush roost]

Hey guys how many targettos do i press blek powdah on

[sullen yarrow]

hey sublety guys, when i should play sublety on m+ what are the dungeons, eco and streets?

im assa main

[swift tinsel]

42

if you have a towel

[plush roost]

And with found wokeness?

[humble condor]

question, what would be best synergy to use between these 2 trinkets and when?

[swift tinsel]

REPORTED

go woke go broke

[alpine wraith]

lilly and prism are not good together

[plush roost]

Frigg

[swift tinsel]

sorry

[lucid jackal]

Not rlly on mythic

[alpine wraith]

get a decent passive and use prism

[humble condor]

what would be a good one?

[alpine wraith]

you still use tfd mostly because of how bad wm is

[sullen yarrow]

hey i need two answers, any good sub rogue here

[swift tinsel]

nah

[plush roost]

Nop

[swift tinsel]

we're all washed

[alpine wraith]

we are all good trust

good bois

we clean the house and listen to our moms

[plush roost]

Shoot your question king

[lilac stag]

Imagine having a house or a mom

[sullen yarrow]

what are bis dungeons for sublety that i should play instead of assasination

also, how many targets and minutes do i send for sim

[lilac stag]

all dungeons are sub dungeons.

[sullen yarrow]

nah

assa is better

but eco and streets

are the sublety dungeons?

[faint basalt]

xd

[plush roost]

Real answer: Too early to properly tell tbh, Dawn and Streets are early candidates.

[lilac stag]

Comes for advice. Answers own question to dispute answer.

Classic

[plush roost]

On ptr assa blew sub out the water in ecodome with all the funnel on bosses

[sullen yarrow]

ok

dawn and streets

how many targets do i sim for sub

[plush roost]

Maybe, no gusrantees routes may adapt

[sullen yarrow]

i need to change my gear

[lucid jackal]

Probs just dslice

[sullen yarrow]

ok dslice

[hazy breach]

Ye but assa has tanked like a 10% nerf since ptr

[plush roost]

Yeah but i really dont think that matters with the amount of funnel on eco

[hazy breach]

Well the funnel is more than 10%, but ye

Singular focus doesnt work with caustic anymore

[grave zenith]

can you please link me the best video guide to learn subtlety this season as an assa player

[sullen yarrow]

damn i just checked

[plush roost]

A tragedy of the ages

[sullen yarrow]

i have every piece vers mastery

[hazy breach]

So singular is like atleast half as strong

[sullen yarrow]

my stats are better than on assa

[dusk stone]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[sullen yarrow]

Yea im on wowhead now

do u guys recommend method or icy

[dusk stone]

Wowhead

[sullen yarrow]

for sublety who haves a better guide

oh ok

cool

[lilac stag]

All 3 are good

[dusk stone]

That yeah

[lilac stag]

All written slightly differently. Best one is one that makes most sense to you.

The IV guide writer pushes keys the most fwiw

[dusk stone]

But yeah sub is meta for rogue this season so far

It changes in specific circumstances

Also sin boss dam without funnel is rly bad on a tier where we are gated by dam not dtps

[cursive bear]

Im a bit lost in m+, when shadow dance do you shadow strike Even if more then 4 targets ? And also outside of shadow dance, when to evi vs blackpower ? Because if you dont evi, you don’t proc coupe so… i m confused 😭

[kindred dock]

always shadow strike in dance

[cursive bear]

And when to evi / blackpowder ?

[kindred dock]

4 targets

bp

[cursive bear]

So no coupe ?

[kindred dock]

i do

but only the coupe. no evis

[tepid trellis]

consume coup whenever its rdy

as long as the target is fazed

[cursive bear]

Do you bp when shadow dance ?

[kindred dock]

yes

[lucid jackal]

Always shadowstrike in dance.

Evis on 3 or less targets, or if you want prio damage
BP on 4 or more for max aoe

[dusk stone]

Unseen blade triggers ES blade, ES blade gives coup

[cursive bear]

Okok its clear now, thanks for your help boyz 😉

[kindred dock]

always

[dusk stone]

What is the ratio of dances to farm the cdr for the 3rd

Is it full 2 stack

Or like 1.9

[kindred dock]

your first ability in shadow dance in st is backstep, if u want to minmax. if u have 0 cp. cause auf premeditation

[dusk stone]

Also how long does flag take to ramp

[tepid trellis]

well it takes 30 cps to max

it

you do the math

[dusk stone]

2 coup literally do it

[hazy breach]

Flag is 7, sectech is 10, then coup is 15 or evis is 10, so 3 kinda two finishers

[twilit current]

Hi guys, kinda new to sub this expansion and I generally learn best by watching YT videos and content. Which youtuber guide should I follow if I want to pick up sub? I'm not interested in beginners guide, as I played sub in the past so have a sound understanding of the spec. Mainly looking to optimise gameplay, so a more advanced guide would be useful.
Any help or directions appreciated.

[dusk stone]

Read the guide too

[kindred dock]

fuu's guide on wowhead

pretty much all information u need 2 know

[twilit current]

Is there any video content out there? I tend to prefer watching a video, trying the spec, then read the guide

[fast elbow]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[twilit current]

As reading the guide can be quite confusing if I haven't had a chance to play around the rotation myself

[kindred dock]

i watched shindig's guide

[swift tinsel]

I still don't know who this shindig guy is

[dusk stone]

Shindiggs video yeah

[kindred dock]

uprising player. chill to watch. as i know

[twilit current]

Shindigs guide is pre patch, I'm guessing this still applies?

[swift tinsel]

heard him talk on max's thing but that's it

[kindred dock]

he did a new one - just for the changes

[twilit current]

I use shindig heavily for Assa

[dusk stone]

Very good rogue player

[kindred dock]

he do sub aswell

*does

[dusk stone]

He had some top parses for sin last patch

[twilit current]

Yeah changes one doesn't really go into rotational play etc

So he's got one that's like 5 months old

Is that one still fine to use?

[kindred dock]

nothing changed

[dusk stone]

There's a new sub one

From few weeks ago

[kindred dock]

just bp count and the coup procc

[fast elbow]

is it possible to macro flagellation into shadow blades or is that shit?

[hazy breach]

Its not good

[tepid trellis]

shit

[dusk stone]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[kindred dock]

u want have blades a little later

[dusk stone]

Flag has to ramp and sectec is strong so you want blades a bit later

[twilit current]

Hhmm I only see an extensive sub guide from shindig but dated 5 months ago for 11.1

It's fine, if nothing much has changed I will watch that one then. Thanks guys

[kindred dock]

11 days ago, he released a vid with the changes. so watch that too, i guess

guys i wish u good night. bb 🙂

[dusk stone]

Yeah the 1 from 5 months ago is more In depth

[alpine wraith]

yea i also did a long one and the one for this season with mostly the changes

[winged kernel]

12 priory.. first time as sub..

hows the breakdown look

[dusk stone]

Dimensius looks so rough

Cmon liquid put the fries in the bag so echo don't get it

[dusk stone]

What was the overall

Why is your shadow strike non existant

[winged kernel]

6.37m

[dusk stone]

Use strike in dance

[alpine wraith]

likely he does not have 4p if his bp is so high

also yea strike in dance

[winged kernel]

i do have 4p.. but like i said first dungeon as sub lol

[young roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[winged kernel]

_<

[alpine wraith]

well in aoe we still strike in dance

try to also always use coup when available

[undone mesa]

guys, in m+ the better way to use sub is with 2 on use? its very dificult to line up the cds, im using lily and prism

theres a lot of dps loss roll with 1 use 1 passive?

[sullen hare]

1 use 1 passive is fine

[dusk stone]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[sullen hare]

Especially if you're having issues with 2 on use

[dusk stone]

2 use is overrated what some higher io rogues are saying

[winged kernel]

a guides not going to over my breakdown.. thanks bud

[undone mesa]

nether prism hc or lily hc for m+?

nether is stronger i think?

[alpine wraith]

double on use only works with prism

and forge or pvp trink

otherwise use a passive

and prism

[undone mesa]

humm got it

i dont have forge

i will try it so

we use dgslice in raidbots? or other config

[dusk stone]

Holy

Echo nearly put the fries In the bag 0.26 wipe

[dusk stone]

Breakdown doesn't mean anything. We need a log.

[charred thicket]

Which talent tree are you running too?

[undone mesa]

do u mind to help me if i post a log from a dungeon? im a new player of sub this xpac

[fossil imp]

why shuriken storm between coups in burst windows? danse stacks? and what if i dont get combopoints for the 2nd coup? do i coup->shuriken storm->shadowstrike->coup?

[charred thicket]

@winged kernel breakdown should look a bit closer to this (also priory)

[swift tinsel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

if you're in big cds you always get full from storm because of shadow blades

and Number 2 is why we storm

[shrewd lantern]

How much of a loss is ignore the adjustment

[undone mesa]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6nyVb2YrQX3vgR7G?fight=last&type=damage-done im doing something so wrong

omg hahaha

[charred thicket]

Ahh theres more consisten damage if you go the shuriken tornado** build for M+

I mean always check your sims

but this one is the higher simming talent build for me at least

[fossil imp]

thx for the explanation but holy sht i hate about everything in this rotation

[lucid jackal]

This build feels like shit to play

No RS, no Inev, Tornado

Yuck

[hazy breach]

You absolutely should not be playing without the first dance

[fossil imp]

was wondering about the first dance, sht looks useless to me somehow

[hazy breach]

In sims its only counting TFD as literally only working on pull

[charred thicket]

well without the first dance, it depends on how your tank pulls

[hazy breach]

And its still close

No

It doesnt

[charred thicket]

my guys always end up chain pulling

[lucid jackal]

There is no way the tank pulls where TFD is bad

[hazy breach]

Doesnt matter

[charred thicket]

hmm

[hazy breach]

You will always get resets after bosses

[lucid jackal]

If they chain pulled the entire dungeon, and you got 2 procs in general, it'd be better

[fossil imp]

oh i was talking about raids anyways

[hazy breach]

And thats enough to make it better than any other option

Any other resets just makes it better

And you can also vanish and stand afk to proc it right before your 18 stack burst cds

[charred thicket]

i got this one from the fuu spreadsheet for M+ so then would you reccomend the other build?

[hazy breach]

Fuus sheet shows whats simming highest, but like i said tfd doesnt sim accurately

[charred thicket]

I see, do you have a reccomended different talent tree then?

[hazy breach]

Either swap imp sht+PE into tfd+replicating or do something like this

[charred thicket]

gotcha gotcha, ill try it out n see how i like it

Would you not reccomend the one thats pinned?

[shrewd lantern]

Someone correct me if im misremembering

wasnt the s2 opener to dance bs after flag

[alpine wraith]

if you dont have tornado rotten is very good to get FW rolling

[small hemlock]

Just quickly is sub as poppega in keys and sin is

[shrewd lantern]

and not send symbols until you were sending blades

[small hemlock]

And when do I bp

[alpine wraith]

it ended up neutral to SoD after the stab with rotten

that global was w/e

you bp at 4 or more target

[dusk stone]

I can just use !log feature

[dusk stone]

Shadowstrike also way low

[undone mesa]

!log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6nyVb2YrQX3vgR7G?fight=last

[shrewd lantern]

That first symbols was where sb was last season right

[dusk stone]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[shrewd lantern]

hmm not sure why my brain is remembering the first symbols being hit after bs then

[charred thicket]

Thx I tried this one out on some dummies, and the damage was comparable, obviously the tornado one bursts higher/gets an extra dance earlier but the one you gave will more than likely be better for keys with restealths etc.

Ill swap to the one you gave me

[shrewd lantern]

Its basically raid build almost

[hazy breach]

Ye its small differences either way

[shrewd lantern]

i guess raid build is rotten—->finality, imp storm——> sf

not sure if the wm tfd swap matters

[charred thicket]

Right right, but also less chance of misstiming your tornado during a non ideal time

[warped zodiac]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[sick sand]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[jagged rover]

there it is, liquid pulled it out

[maiden oar]

sub rogue #1

[rigid walrus]

alright subs

whos ready to get nerged

[maiden oar]

dont say that

[thin sinew]

Why on earth would we get nerfed?

[uneven ginkgo]

top dps liquid

today

[short radish]

happened before

[uneven ginkgo]

thats not gonna fly its supposed to be a mage

[short radish]

can happen again

[thin sinew]

Because of a damage amp

[charred thicket]

Getting nerfed because of double techniques during the damage amp

[alpine wraith]

22% feint uptime

on imexile XD

[charred thicket]

2min 19 seconds

unreal

[alpine wraith]

1st on boss dmg 1st on overall

imexile made diff

[void hound]

perfecto was cranking too

[alpine wraith]

perfecto had a tragic death

with 18 stack prism

[short radish]

yet somehow only one rogue

[void hound]

is that only p3?

[spice matrix]

P3

[void hound]

based

[alpine wraith]

they needed all the utility from others unluck

[dusk stone]

Liquid put the fries in the bag

[void hound]

i guess the dmg amp is carrying boss dmg

wonder what the breakdown looked like for nexus king

[spice matrix]

damage amps

[pulsar hemlock]

Exile built diff, my poe and rogue goat

[lilac stag]

No one wants to play it.

[paper slate]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

get ready for the influx

[hollow turret]

liquid has 3 rogues on their roster

[frail kindle]

SUB TOP P3 DPS

SIN ROGUE COPERS SEETHING

[final granite]

[shrewd lantern]

Is something wrong with this picture

[halcyon ridge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[frail kindle]

It’s the worst nightmare of an assassination rogue

[short radish]

liquid has 2 rogues though

[slate lantern]

Sub nerfs confirmed

[dusk stone]

Wdym influx

We have been being spammed

Look I ain't prepared for helms deep

[lucid jackal]

Is that not p3 only

Look at the graph

[alpine wraith]

he had shown boss dmg overall and p3

[terse dirge]

authority of the depths sims slightly better than artistry and tenacity for me atm is there a reason those are recommended?

[alpine wraith]

you will eventually get more gear

and those will be better

[spice matrix]

not sure then but you might be right

looked like Exile just opened log real quick

[jagged rover]

that screenshot specifically is p3 only, yeah

[spice matrix]

kk

[west tide]

SUB UP

[alpine wraith]

he had shown the 3 things

overall boss dmg and p3

top on all three

[rapid oasis]

are we gonna be nerfed now? I hope not but you never know

[dusk stone]

Turns out damage amps and long intermission are rly good for sub

[chrome palm]

he looks geeked out lmfao

[spiral needle]

i dont think you have to worry about sub getting nerfed when 3 locks/ele/mages were being brought across multiple fights

more likely other melee get buffed

[dusk stone]

More subs should have been brought

Noone prepared them or played it at that level maybe

[tender granite]

i mean, wouldn't you be

[spiral needle]

ranged too strong to really jam a bunch of sub rogues into comps

[hollow turret]

p3 mythic amp burn

crazyness

[hard ember]

what a good day

[lucid jackal]

No?

[bleak night]

[hollow turret]

look at that prot war roleplaying

[dusk stone]

We aren't broken just because a fight fits our niche

[short radish]

zul

[dusk stone]

Unless blizzard just decides fuck that spec in particular

[short radish]

zul

[rapid oasis]

ive been kind of following the race but not too closely cuz I'm travelling. ny friend was just telling me to look at rogue damage on dimmy kill so i was kinda worried

[dusk stone]

Well you heard it here folks massive sub nerfs inbound prepare to be unplayable

[spiral needle]

you can't really compare zul to the last 2 bosses in this tier

sub literally broke that fight

[dusk stone]

I wonder if they made this tier knowing sub is good so we get more ppl for an incoming rework in midnight

Fix subs low player base

[spiral needle]

you can rest assured that most devs in blizzard have no idea what other devs or doing or know anything about spec designs

likely a complete accident that 90s CD classes are good at dimensius

[dusk stone]

I doubt there is zero crossover

[hazy breach]

Its moreso the reason rogue is tuned so low on pure ST is because the fights are so good for it

[lucid jackal]

LOL

[rapid oasis]

so things basically working as intended?

[lucid jackal]

Yeah any time they get tuning right "Yeah the devs are clueless and lucky"

[raw wadi]

yeah but did you note the trinket usage?

[lucid jackal]

Blizzard derangement syndrome

[sullen hare]

pulling quotes out of my playbook I see

[hazy breach]

If sub was exactly the same in undermine it would not be good

[dusk stone]

Sub carried this tier

[sullen hare]

next time cite your sources

[dusk stone]

We should celebrate that

[hazy breach]

Same with nerubar

[sullen hare]

(about my cheeky statement, not you eleem)

[lucid jackal]

Well

Maybe nerubar

[spiral needle]

gally wasn't that long ago

[sullen hare]

sub getting a w is nice

[spiral needle]

tuning seems more like a happy accident these days

[lucid jackal]

Imagine sub on broodtwister

I mean look at sub on silken ocurt and queen

I mean if u wanna just assume every time blizzard does something good its just luck then go ahead

[sullen hare]

I was rotting under the bench at that point so I can't remember that

[dusk stone]

Sub st buffs now?

[lucid jackal]

0% sub gets a single buff this tier

Until like every spec gets a buff

[spiral needle]

you can expect sin to get its usual 5% mid tier buff

[raw wadi]

only deathstalker

[dusk stone]

Sub seems wildly hard to tune if any fight even remotely favors it

[lucid jackal]

I mean its tuned fine rn?

It's just strong on some fights

Which is okay, same way specs like destro are OP on the DH fight

Is the goal of tuning to have every DPS spec be the same strength on every fight?

[dusk stone]

Numerically no but I guess that isn't as relevant

[spiral needle]

no need to doom because the best players in the world got the perfect 2 trinkets and beat ranged by a couple % on last 2 fights

[random comet]

This is how generationally traumatised rogues are

[spiral needle]

plenty of sin rogues like me will play it poorly to keep the WCL average down

[lucid jackal]

No this is how profession victim people who play this spec are

[random comet]

Top on one fight and thinking it’s a problem

[lucid jackal]

Its so odd

[plush roost]

Subs been good more than bad last 2 xpack yet we doom

[lucid jackal]

Rogue is good = complain
Rogue is bad = complain

[plush roost]

Lfg

[spiral needle]

probably still suffering PTSD from zul, but forgetting sub was so busted on that fight you'd have non-rogues bring random alt and completely skip the fight

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/old-man-grandpa-gif-11055948006915227502

[hazy breach]

Sub good in raid
Sub good in keys
Still complaining

[lucid jackal]

Literally

[plush roost]

Im complaining because all you non sub rogue poser faker bandwagoners are stealin my jobs

(Joke)

[dusk stone]

Part of sub rogue is learning the complaining rotation

[spiral needle]

don't worry, no one wants to play rolgue anyways

[dusk stone]

It is mandatory

[spiral needle]

all 3 specs could be top 5 on WCL and it'd still be the least played class

[plush roost]

I heard whispers of a big rogue rework in midnight

[spiral needle]

there will be 3x as many ret paladins

[plush roost]

May just be outlaw but who knows

[spiral needle]

they've said they wanna dial complexity back in Midnight, who knows if they mean it or how that impacts rogues

[dusk stone]

Make ret paladin buttons do 10 gcds

[short radish]

one single line mentioning outlaw has provided hope once again

[hollow turret]

make ret a melee aug as punishment for their clownery

[spiral needle]

that's punishing all players though

[dusk stone]

A melee Aug who only buffs ret paladins

So they can all play in little groups together

[solemn lance]

Castle nathria sub was abysmal

[ember lintel]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[naive zodiac]

W

[swift tinsel]

type shit

big gratz big dog

[lilac stag]

Big W. Gz

sorry to hear about mom needing surgery. Hopefully mends quickly.

[snow girder]

are there any video guides for sub focused on m+? im looking for info on when to hold shadow dance after your burst

[dusk stone]

Oh wow

Echo did some toxic shit to liquid

Glad they lost

[snow girder]

what happened?

[dusk stone]

Called them world 3rd guild at saladbar apparently with a meme

They 100% deserve wiping at 0.25% and hearing liquid won

[snow girder]

well they ate shit

[woeful rain]

considering a 11 hour headstart its hard for echo to win

[teal prawn]

youre the goat, i said that last time tho

[left ledge]

this race wouldve been boring as fuck if echo didnt pull an all nighter and give us a masterclass performance at even 2 am in the morning

[dusk stone]

It was good race

[hollow turret]

did your headset survive

[dusk stone]

Why they ruin it with unsportsmanlike conduct

[alpine wraith]

his headset was at 40% hp it seems

[hollow turret]

exile pov when they won had the most insane headset windup and smash down. he brought that ish to the back of his neck

[solemn lance]

Quick question that I notice happens to me occasionally in M+. If I am running rotten does it matter if my backstab after dance doesn't co sume it? Meaning it doesn't trigger then triggers my next 2 builders?

[spice matrix]

great job pumper :alklfg:

[solemn lance]

Or is it better to make sure its proccing on the backstab, or is it really irrelevant

[spice matrix]

Highlight of the tier:

https://www.twitch.tv/imexile/clip/CourageousBlushingClintmullinsTriHard-MV4OCo4OeCirf5Yd

[naive zodiac]

headset is alive

[hollow turret]

[lucid jackal]

[hollow turret]

https://www.twitch.tv/imexile/clip/ProductiveSnappyClipsdadPanicVis-Ds4VHvDEY0QVELQL?filter=clips&range=24hr&sort=time

[alpine wraith]

headset was not in execute range

[alpine wraith]

irrelevant to proc it on bs

[calm haven]

Just got an Ritual Forge, is this double on use still a gimmicky thing or is it quite legit

[alpine wraith]

it is legit

[calm haven]

Is it fluidish to use? never really messed around with it

[alpine wraith]

you just use one or the other on each set of cds

on pull forge then prism etc

[lucid jackal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/451631560827994112/1350902980614033428/ride.gif

[hardy snow]

how about signet? too bad?

compared to forge

[hazy breach]

Generally if youre not running forge double on-use is absolutely not worth it

Compared to good passive trinkets

[tight sparrow]

tea sims higher for me

why the hell they playt

cb

[hardy snow]

tea is good as it is

[calm haven]

Doesn't have to be pvp trinket right? I was intending on using it with lily

but I sim higher with Forge + passive

[alpine wraith]

no pvp trinket is even not that good

as eleem said only prism+forge is outstanding

lilly is just not that good

you would be better using forge+passive or lilly+passive

[raw wadi]

How about prism + passive and use it with 9 stacks?

[crystal bone]

can i shadowstep to the loomithar thread focus target?

the ring

[alpine wraith]

that is fine too

[raw wadi]

Yes you will land outside

[alpine wraith]

if it is the enemy no

i got stunned last time i tried

[crystal bone]

hmm ok

[alpine wraith]

maybe saiken is right and i just pressed w

but i got spooked

[raw wadi]

Try it

[dusk stone]

You can step the web add and chase it in?

[alpine wraith]

i tried and got snooked

[raw wadi]

I mean I can check logs now but im pretty sure I stepped it and I was outside of the ring