subtlety

[tender ferry]

okay thank you

but with 2 or 3 add, i do evicirate right ?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[tender ferry]

that's why i'm so low in dps

i'm always using evicirate when i got the proc

[swift tinsel]

if you have flawless form buff up

so it cleaves

[hazy breach]

You should use coup when its up

BP vs evis is absolutely not the reason if you feel like youre doing low damage

[tender ferry]

but i use coup when i got the buff

[hazy breach]

Youre likely fucking up your burst windows

[empty plume]

you will naturally have flawless form bc the unseen blade proc pushes you from 3->4, coup becomes available, and nimble flurry is up always in that situation. unless you sit on the 4stack coup being ready

[tender ferry]

i'm 696 ilvl

i did 4.2 m dps

on HOA

[open vortex]

Lame invisible

[tender ferry]

and during burst (shadow dance / death symbol) i should use shuriken or shadow strike

[neat orbit]

shadow strike to get more coup right? during shadow dance

[hazy breach]

Yes strike

[tender ferry]

okay

i think i got it

thank you guys

[tepid briar]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[empty plume]

picked a random sub rogue +16 key aoe pull for the visual learners

this is not the initial flagellation/blades usage, just kinda baseline aoe play with symbols and dance

[vale pine]

👍

[empty plume]

any variety in spells is for danse macabre stacks

[hazy breach]

The second storm in dance is not it

The first is kinda sus too, but fine if it was literally the first global of the pull

[empty plume]

I think dance may have ended there

for the second

8sec yeah?

[hazy breach]

Oh ye true

But idk you shouldnt really storm in dance unless its to convserve your unseen blade stacks

Esp since it seems like its in the middle of a pull

So things should already have fw

[vale pine]

the pic is probably confusing

[empty plume]

yeah this is like the middle of an aoe pack for sure

out of context

[vale pine]

the storm i assume is because he runs rotten to ensure fw

[warm marlin]

That one is for rotten probably

[hazy breach]

I know

[vale pine]

and there is no 2nd dance

[empty plume]

this is the 3rd dance, which is why

[vale pine]

yes, its nice that you put in the effort

just probably a bit confusing without context

[void hound]

backab is also bad in aoe no?

[empty plume]

yeah I sniped a screenshot where they dance+symbols -> sectech -> shadowstrike BP until they've naturally generated a coup via shadowstrike in dance -> coup coup

all deeper inspection occurred after, but it served the purpose for the simplicity of the original question I think

[hazy breach]

Last i checked it was equal, so doesnt really matter

[void hound]

i see

[vale pine]

it becomes irrelevant with more targets, but its never bad

[ashen warren]

do you coup coup always out of dance ? even if u proc it during dance ? maybe my qst is dumb

[vale pine]

so just as you like

[empty plume]

no, they did not have an additional dance charge to chain with this one

this was the final dance

you would always coup inside the subsequent dance pmuch (or the current one, if you can)

[vale pine]

as eleem mentioned, it simmed not worse, it is why there is no special target condition in the apl

[ashen warren]

okay thx

[gray orbit]

is there a quick entry lvl guide for sub ?

[hazy breach]

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/subtlety-rogue-pve-dps-easy-mode
Something like this page, wowhead surely has a similar page

[shy ermine]

If I have coup and sectec ready and about to go into dance without flag/blades, do I use 0, 1 or 2 coups before casting the sectec? I know with CDs we sectec first

[hazy breach]

Just sectech first always

You'd waste a lot of cdr delaying it until after the coups

[proven plover]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[shy ermine]

Ok, so try to sectec before having coup ready unless you have lots of stored cps I guess

[empty plume]

not ideal to have coup available and waste unseen blade procs post-sectech i'd imagine

[vale pine]

Super short guide:

every 90 seconds:

• flag-finish-2xsymbols+dance
• During dance: Secret first finisher, evis else. Strike as builder

Between the 90 sec cooldowns:

• 1-2x symbols + dance, dance sequence the same as during 90 sec.

For AOE

• Switch to BP on 3-4 targets. (still use evis for coup)
• Storm ONLY outside of Dance with 2+ targets.

More details in the guides^^

[hollow turret]

I'm a recent swap to sub due to tanks being terror agents in keys about restealthing. what should the top 3-4 damaging abilities be in like a 13-15 flood overall? ive been gettting 3 variations of overall damage so im making a big mistake somewhere. 1. nimble ahead of everything, 2. nimble and powder slightly behind nimble, 3. nimble, powder, secret tech all practically even. all in large pull dungeons with aoe emphasis. (new 4p)

[proven plover]

dont storm once for macabre inside dance?

[runic sinew]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

no

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

^ but you storm in dance

the 2nd optimization

there is also backstab in dance

[ebon geode]

very stupid question but, i use BP just in 3-4 target or 3-4+ targets

[vale pine]

which is a small optimitation

[hazy breach]

4 or more

[vale pine]

^

it is 3 find weakness targets, which is typically 4+ targets

but it is not too bad if you bp on 3

[ebon geode]

srry im a dog with a costume

[vale pine]

its 4 or more

so bp with higehr targets

[proven plover]

is there any gain to holding prism longer than for every flag window

besides bigger pulls in m+ ofc

[vale pine]

yes

[proven plover]

I mean on a target dummy

[vale pine]

if you have forge

[hazy breach]

Yes

[vale pine]

you will alter between two trinekts and you get benefits from more stacks for prism

[proven plover]

ah ok

[vale pine]

with only prism on use, you rarely will stack higher unless you shortly delay for a vulnerability phase

[solemn lance]

Any good plater suggestions for m+

[proven plover]

is it optimal to use 2 onuse tho? since your bis profile uses antenna

[vale pine]

i use nameplatekai

[solemn lance]

Im using q something other other

[vale pine]

so no idea

think there are some great profiles out there from the m+ streamers/community

unsure you need rogue specific stuff

[rapid torrent]

So if prism is only on-use, you generally send on every flag without the 18 stacks?

[vale pine]

yes

[hazy breach]

Eh, either forge or antenna

[solemn lance]

Yeh I've tried a few. I found i don't like the rogue specific ones as much

[hazy breach]

I would recommend antenna instead for keys

[proven plover]

dont have forge sadly, but I've gotten lfr antenna xd

[hazy breach]

The forge thing is ok for short fights but keys go so long that the passive should be better imo

[vale pine]

a passive trinket like antenna gives a lot of agi, so is even good with lower prism stacks

and sometimes you will maybe delay casts and get free extra damage^^

[proven plover]

ok so basically theres no need to build more prism stacks unless theres a big amp window or add spawns or w/e you'd want to hold it for

[vale pine]

you can just use it with blades

for most parts

simple enough ^^

[fossil forge]

is it really better to bp on 4 instead of 7

[hazy breach]

Yes

[stoic pier]

1up

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[lethal yew]

How much do you lose by not playing around coupe optimization?

[hazy breach]

Idk which one but its like 1% per

In sims

[vale pine]

from when i checked last:

• Delaying coup for cooldowns: ~1-1.5% dps
• Not using finishers for last 10 sec before flag: ~0.3-0.5%
• Storm between coup casts: ~1%

[twin quartz]

How would I sim using netherprism every 3min vs netherprism every 90s

[meager coyote]

is there some reason why the sims use shuriken tornado and the pinned talent build for doesn't? 🤔

[vestal escarp]

Imagine if sub apex talent is just cranked dance cdr

[vale pine]

This should do:

copy="prism every 3 min"
actions.item=use_item,name=treacherous_transmitter,if=cooldown.flagellation.remains<=2|fight_remains<=15
actions.item+=/do_treacherous_transmitter_task,if=buff.shadow_dance.up|fight_remains<=15
actions.item+=/use_item,name=unyielding_netherprism,use_off_gcd=1,if=(buff.latent_energy.stack>=16&buff.shadow_blades.remains>=12)|fight_remains<=20
actions.item+=/use_item,name=imperfect_ascendancy_serum,use_off_gcd=1,if=dot.rupture.ticking&buff.flagellation_buff.up
actions.item+=/use_item,name=cursed_stone_idol,use_off_gcd=1,if=dot.rupture.remains>=25&buff.flagellation_buff.up|fight_remains<=20
actions.item+=/use_item,name=mad_queens_mandate,if=(!talent.lingering_darkness|buff.lingering_darkness.up|equipped.treacherous_transmitter)&(!equipped.treacherous_transmitter|trinket.treacherous_transmitter.cooldown.remains>20)|fight_remains<=15
actions.item+=/use_items,slots=trinket1,if=(variable.trinket_sync_slot=1&(buff.shadow_blades.up|fight_remains<=20)|(variable.trinket_sync_slot=2&(!trinket.2.cooldown.ready&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>20))|!variable.trinket_sync_slot)
actions.item+=/use_items,slots=trinket2,if=(variable.trinket_sync_slot=2&(buff.shadow_blades.up|fight_remains<=20)|(variable.trinket_sync_slot=1&(!trinket.1.cooldown.ready&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>20))|!variable.trinket_sync_slot)

[limber folio]

what cloak gem are yall using

[twin quartz]

Ty

[limber folio]

mastery or versa

🤨

[upper narwhal]

Sim angle

[lethal yew]

Thanks. Just practicing sub for raid. Is there a good wa to track your coupe?

[astral axle]

head empty only sim 😌

[vale pine]

you can quickly create one with the template system

also

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

every set will have one form of coup weakauras

its personal preference of what fits your playstyle best

[sharp lake]

Optimization question: imagine Coup de Grace is up and you’re going into Shadow Dance. What do we do in what order?

[meager coyote]

guessing that was the wrong person tag XD

[sharp lake]

I’ve been doing Symbols + Dance -> Backstab -> Coup de Grace -> Shadow Strike -> Secret Technique -> Storm -> Coup de Grace 2 but idk what’s right

[frank narwhal]

If I have both Prism and Forge, should I just macro them both to blades, having Forge as the first trinket so I let Prism stack up for 2nd round of CDs and so on?

[vale pine]

oh true, discord is bad

[upper narwhal]

/use 13
/use 14
With forge on 13 and prism on 14 works if you are sending on cd

[woeful roost]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[vale pine]

^ the copy statement was for you

[formal copper]

How many targets or in what situations is it better to use Nimble Flurry instead of Shuriken Storm + Black Powder?

[hazy breach]

BP at 4 or more targets, keep striking though

[vale pine]

tornado is better in aoe, but you usually play sub for cleave/st where replicating is better

[twin quartz]

Thank you

[swift tinsel]

hold on I have an idea

[meager coyote]

is simply macroing it all gonna lose any dps tho? 🤔 over the course of a key or w.e

[swift tinsel]

there

[vale pine]

you can use evis for slightly higher prio damage instead of aoe.
You always use strike in dance (outside of the coup optimization).
So best is to use bp on 4+ unless coup is ready.

[upper narwhal]

If you don’t send on cd it will use forge before prism even if prism is stacked if you hold for 30s

[swift tinsel]

if I talk regularly the message gets across

[formal copper]

And when is it best to finish with a break in AOE? Is there any AOE guide for sub?

[swift tinsel]

!guide

[compact violet]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[formal copper]

ty all!

[swift tinsel]

I am now Haptics, Billboard

the human pin

[vale pine]

what does confuse you with aoe?

during dance, you strike ALWAYS

outside of dance, you storm on 2+

for finisher, you secret always as highest prio in dance

and else you evis, with 4+ targets you BP instead (BUT always use evis for coup if its up)

[meager coyote]

guessing thistle still just gets macrod into dance and forgotten 🤔

[vale pine]

yes

[meager coyote]

some things never change haha

[vale pine]

can do that

[cunning notch]

would you guys advise me to play sub or sin with 2p ?

the 4p looks kinda nuts no ?

[vale pine]

i would advise you to get 4p on both

tier sets this seaosn have high value

[cunning notch]

DROP IT FOR ME

[vale pine]

unlucky

[cunning notch]

i am eternally sad

[untold sable]

What did you guys craft this week?

[cunning notch]

untill i get 4p

[vale pine]

you can do 2 with catalyst, so only need to get the remaining ones from raid/vault

[winter ice]

wrist

[vale pine]

unsure yet, might do a ring or bracers

[upper narwhal]

Wrist with free upgrade was an easy craft

[cunning notch]

yep i did get 2k score for 1p and catalysed another

next week SURELY

[hazy breach]

Depends on wether or not you have useful things to put your gildeds into

If you do, likely craft bracers with the free hc upgrade

If you dont, then neck and ring are more appealing

[formal copper]

Thanks, I just didn't do the math, it's clear that 8 BP hits do more damage than 1 eviscerate hit + 7 eviscerate hits with 60% efficiency,

[swift tinsel]

wish it was evisc at <=8

also

huehuehue

[vale pine]

would be a lot easier to understand

but i don't mind it

you stil do fine if you use evis

its not terrible

[swift tinsel]

just a bit scuffed that they buff BP so that its more effective at half of nimble's hard cap

seems a bit silly

but oh well

[vale pine]

i mean in the end

what we complain about is the burden of knowlage

because intuitively, you would just use BP on 8+

but becuase we have tools/math to evaluate

we know these optimizations

same with storm during coup

or backstab during dance

not using a finisher 10 sec before flag

^ so we do it to ourselves by wanting to do the most damage

[swift tinsel]

I agree with that to a point, yeah

[vale pine]

subtlety just has a lot of small optimizations like this

haha

we are kinda

"MIN/MAX: THE SPEC"

[swift tinsel]

lol we're a cobbled-together mass of them

add enough 1.5, 0.5, 1.3% optimizations and we're what you get

[vale pine]

i mean i can go on

cold blood 2nd secret during 90 sec cooldowns

blank secret casts, ...

there are a lot of these ^^

symbols pre pull adds another 1-1.5%

haha, i stop now, i swear

don't want to shy away the new players

[swift tinsel]

they gotta learn

rite of passage haha

[noble stirrup]

What's the optimization for blank secret casts?

[swift tinsel]

with the extra coups from 4pc you send sectech without symbols/dance more often

[dry harness]

IF my sim says my dps is 3.2k if im in nromal riad or hc and i end arrodu that then im doing bit ok right?

[fluid fiber]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

it is rly low impact but you sometimes can cast secret blank when you are closer to flagelaltion but can't use dance due to stacks. You can in that case cast secret blank, but its very minor in impact and you need to be careful to have secret back once you use dance in your 90 sec cooldowns

[vale pine]

if you do 80-90% of your sim dps, you are doing great

[ember mural]

hello is there a channel for log review?

[vale pine]

you can type !log and if someone has time, he can look and give tips. Unsure how much time people have this seaosn tho

[ember mural]

!log

[fringe lava]

!GEAR

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[dry harness]

@vale pine ty in raid feels im so low then other ppl

!log

i just feel afrer opener hard to get SD in line with Flag an Sb

[near monolith]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[kindred seal]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sand minnow]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[light hull]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dim patrol]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[fallow drift]

what is everyone simming at in raid spec? swapping to sub for m araz and i'm at 4.38m, is that abnormally low?

[hazy breach]

Sounds fine

Sub is not good at ST

[fallow drift]

im aware just seemed like 600k behind my assass sim was excessive

[hazy breach]

You can check fractilus logs and see that

Should prob be more like 4-500 but ye

[steel horizon]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[cursive vapor]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[cursive vapor]

ahh what was it

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[cursive vapor]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[untold sable]

If bracers, are you doing 720 still With embellishment? Or just With the dimensius crest?

[alpine wraith]

depends rn with crafts being only 60 instead of 90

no reason not to use the gilded craft

[vale pine]

^

[vestal escarp]

We new outlaw

[clever delta]

so pushed 3k as sub today

and had really fun

blasted all keys

died couple times with 18 stack prism 😄

[rough patio]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[clever delta]

was worried wont get invited as sub first

[vale pine]

[frank narwhal]

Wouldn’t that specific shadowblades macro never use Forge (or Lily) if you have Prism macroed first?

[hazy breach]

It would

[frank narwhal]

Okay so it’s just to show how to macro a trinket then, I was a bit confused by it heh

Haven’t got a prism yet so thought maybe using it incurred some sort of longer CD which I found strange

[hazy breach]

Ig we could swap the order around, but i wouldnt recommend macroing it like that if youre using forge+prism anyway

[frank narwhal]

Wouldnt it be okay to macro it like

/cast shadow blades
/cast 13 (forge)
/cast 14 (prism)

[hazy breach]

If you were to never delay your cds yes

[frank narwhal]

Yeah if no more than 29 sec i guess

[hazy breach]

Which happens quite often in keys

[frank narwhal]

Do you recommend having separate binds for both then?

[hazy breach]

(which is also partly why i think using an antenna is gonna be better for overalls)

[hazy breach]

Ye

[frank narwhal]

Yeah it feels a bit clunky and complicated tbh

Not «hard» just tedious I guess

[hazy breach]

Or well, you could macro one to blades and have one natty bind

Because if you prism before you press blades+forge you cant forge

[frank narwhal]

And use before pressing blades yeah

I do already have separate binds for both trinkets, was a few trinkets in DF and before that was nice to have bound separately

[onyx dawn]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[uneven ginkgo]

question do I ever use secret technique outside stealth?

or is it just backstab/eviscerate outside Shadow Dance

[fierce minnow]

there may be times when you send a naked symbols with a sectec to save dances for shadowblades depending on your cooldown reduction, it used to be once for every blade set, but with the better cdr with tierset you may not have that anymore... depends i guess

[hazy breach]

I wouldnt really recommend doing it unless you are absolutely 1000% sure youll get it back up for when you need it again

[fierce minnow]

ye when in doubt its better to just do "nothing"

you are basically healing mobs outside of cds

[hazy breach]

The main reason would be to line up your coups better, but now with the tierset you can just proc and not need it, or you can use it and "proc too much"

But ye as with almost anything related to non-blades windows, its not very impactful if you do it correctly and really really bad if you screw it up

[summer crest]

I am trying to find the explanation on not using a finisher 10 sec before Flagellation, is there a ! Shortcut for it? Thanks guys

[hazy breach]

Shadow techniques

You get more of them for your burst if you dont use them before

[summer crest]

!shadowtechniques

Im bad

[hazy breach]

Its a spell in your spellbook

[summer crest]

Oh

[plush roost]

Just checking if im dumb but if you have coup ready and cds coming up the optimal rotation is storm>sec tec>storm coup(please shadow tech) coup. Strike or backstab next? Strike surely at that point

[hazy breach]

You dont really want to storm more than once

[plush roost]

So even if you know youll waste a escalating you just strike anyway

[hazy breach]

Yeah sim says so, but the ideal way to play it is to get refunds on any of the finishers

So you dont need to storm twice

[warm marlin]

Did you ever end up looking at the dance coup symbols thing

it seemed too annoying to put into simc for me

[plush roost]

That was another optimization i was curious about, do you ever no cd dance coup sec tec coup, or coup coup sec tec?

[hazy breach]

I did not, because as you said everything is tied to sectech cdr, and pretty much anything i touch that would make you waste sectech cdr is immediately red compared to before

[warm marlin]

hmm

[plush roost]

Hmm

[warm marlin]

sectec cdr is good

[plush roost]

Yeah coup being 10-12 cp of cdr is too big i guess then

[warm marlin]

What if the robot is a noob though

[hazy breach]

But like coup is 12 cp already, so increasing it to 15 isnt that big of an increase, even if you have a 30% buff from the tier

[warm marlin]

it’s also an attempt to save escalating stacks

[hazy breach]

Thats probably more valid but idk

Like you said its insanely annoying to change in simc

Because of the way the APL is build upon sectech cdr

[warm marlin]

any cooldown related stuff is

[hazy breach]

Theres not much else to "anchor" the rotation around

Since we have cdr and multiple stacks of most things

[plush roost]

How optimal/suboptimal is it to pool a few shadow tech stacks going into a normal dance? Like 2-3? Worth losing a naked finisher for?

Been fiddling around and it feels really nice to have a shadowcraft proc after sectec into coup

[hazy breach]

Maybe if coup is up or you have 3 stacks, i dont think ive specifically checked that in simc

[plush roost]

Yeah its more specifically for coup being up, not losing as many escalatings doing that

[hazy breach]

But i would be surprised if it was very impactful, seeing as its out of cds optimizations

[plush roost]

It felt impactful on forgeweaver adds ngl

[hazy breach]

I mean thats a different story, i thought you were just talking about st

[warm marlin]

it’s basically impossible to sim pool conditions when you’re knowing about swapping from st to aoe soon

[plush roost]

Im talking in general but yeah st was also a curiousity

[lucid jackal]

Literally just play off vibes

[hazy breach]

Ye its really insanely hard to sim, but feels is that its absolutely worth doing if you want to maximize add damage

[plush roost]

You know it

Speaking of araz since we barely missed it last night and wont raid till wednesday. Flsg at 22 seconds yeah?

Thats what felt best timed for me

[lucid jackal]

20-22 ya

[warm depot]

Hey all what is the best embelishment?

for m+?

[lucid jackal]

U can do it the global that the puddle spawns

[hazy breach]

I liked 25 last week, but now they die too early for that

[plush roost]

Ah ive been doing flag at 22, rupture, backstab, and then they get pulled/run back in by whatever and press sec tec

We knock every set tho so idk if you have a diff strat

[vale pine]

lense works well everywhere

but embellishments are close in value

[lucid jackal]

I've had ascendancy Sim higher all tier

[warm depot]

And now its sub the best for m+?

[plush roost]

Assa will be better as keys get higher but sub is very good rn

[warm marlin]

same but very close

I like it for the aoe value over lens

[plush roost]

Agree

[left ledge]

I try to save some sht for when this happens

It’s kind of a despair situation for sub

[plush roost]

Yeah been doing that and just straight afk no back stab so i dont eat them, then use premed to not eat them either

[left ledge]

Yeah I’ll sometimes do that, then coup first into sectec into tier coup

And I’ll only use storm once at most

Although I think in a pure ST situation you’re probably better off munching a stack

But that doesn’t really exist in this raid outside of fract

[vale pine]

it is more popular currently, we have good burst because of prism and strong single target.
Which is great for the dungeon pool.
Hard to say whats better long term

[left ledge]

And sub on that boss is

[covert meteor]

Quick question:

The opener shows for single target flag, rupture, dance backstab into blades sectec. But the flag build up is 12s followed by the 12s mastery buff, no? So wouldn't I miss most of the mastery buff with shadow blades, since blades is about to run out by the time I am getting it?

Compared to the multi target opener, since you apply more ruptures and blade later, your blades have almost full uptime during the mastery buff from flag. Or am I missing something?

[hazy breach]

You get the mastery immediately

Not after 12s

[covert meteor]

Oooh

Thank you.

[lucid jackal]

If the margins are close, and one adds 0 aoe I see no reason to play it tbqh

[west tide]

same ascendancy sims equal rn for me and also double councils guile sims the same for me as oathsworn and the other one lmfao

[lucid jackal]

Double stat simming higher sounds wrong

Like of the same stat

[west tide]

saw some interesting stuff swapping from sin to sub

i swapped anyways i didnt trust it lmfao

[hollow spear]

Double council's guile for easy fatebound switching

[west tide]

i was like this one naww

i did keep ascendancy though

[hollow spear]

Double council sims best for me too

[lucid jackal]

Even for sin it wasn't drinking higher for me

Simming

[hollow spear]

The robot loves crit for some reason

Also on sub

[west tide]

it was for me

[vale pine]

the highest simming is one of the stat hp ones

dusk or dawn

[west tide]

do we like the araz trinket more or the antenna..

[warm marlin]

why would double of the same stat be bad

[vale pine]

but both are not up when you might need the extra stats to finish up a boss

[hollow spear]

Got crafted weapon and ring

[vale pine]

so unsure if people will run them in m+

[vale pine]

antenna is probably the best passive option

[lucid jackal]

Idk, it never simmed higher for me no matter how I configured the Sim, I assumed there was some Dr with the same enchant

[hollow spear]

Mythic antenna sims crazy high for me

[alpine wraith]

dont sleep on cosmic hunter

[ripe flame]

no antenna and no forge means I'm a sigil gamer 😎

[warm marlin]

ur just a gamer with very balanced stats

[hollow spear]

I top geared almost all weapon enchants and double council came out ahead, outside of margin of error

[warm marlin]

double council guile was good on both specs until i got better jewelry

[hollow spear]

Did I hear Lashga?

[chrome palm]

i do not really like double on use in keys since you end up not using them off cd every time

[west tide]

astral sims so high for me too but on liquidarmory they got forgeweaver super high on that liquid generated apl thing

[lucid jackal]

Ya maybe that's just it

[west tide]

also they dont run it but also antenna is so good for ranged too

[hollow spear]

Only the priory ring sims as upgrade over the gally ring for me

[hollow spear]

Wdym they don't run it?

[west tide]

the rogues

in w1st

they all forgeweave and fractillus trinket

[vale pine]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[vale pine]

ye forge + prism is best double on use

[hollow spear]

They might need it to get very specific bursts done

[west tide]

might be like not best sim but on demand burst ya

[alpine wraith]

it is also very good overall in m+ because you kinda destroy the pack or at least kill the low hp shitters

if you hold for too long it may do less overall tho than passive

[vale pine]

it sims very close to prisma + antenna

[alpine wraith]

as in less dmg

[vale pine]

so its not rly simming worse

[hazy breach]

Ye i also think antenna is kinda undersimming for keys too because when things arent hectic you can very easily time them with your dances instead of them just appearing randomly like in sims

[warm marlin]

for dimensius currently prism passive is a bit troll since there's a lot of flying downtime you aren't stacking it

[hazy breach]

On a lot of high movement fights its obviously oversimming since you end up simming a couple of them

[warm marlin]

and p1 damage is important

so forge prism good

[sand minnow]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

Idk sending forge on a natty dance looks kinda miserable

But its obviously better than not using it

[hollow spear]

Almost seems like they delay the 2nd flag a bit for forge

But haven't seen too many pulls

[hazy breach]

Dont think exile is, perfecto does and he gets into p3 with like 7s left on flag

[left ledge]

Chances they nerf dim when echo sleeps?

[hollow spear]

Don't think so

[left ledge]

This fight doesn’t die without nerfs

There’s probably no secret phase

They just die

[west tide]

whens the fair time to nerf

[left ledge]

No time is fair

Because of time zone

[west tide]

most fair

[left ledge]

Prob when both are awake

And raiding

So few hours ago would’ve been ok

[hollow spear]

Would have probably been when Liquid started

"most fair"

[left ledge]

But this fight just won’t die before a nerf

[hazy breach]

Idk we'll see, people were talking about that for nexus king too when they hit enrage at like 50%

[left ledge]

It is just overtuned

[warm depot]

and we have any expectation?

[plush roost]

People said that about ansurek too

And then they found 10%

[hollow spear]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they found the damage

It will take a long time, but it could be done

Depends on how much patience Blizzard has

[left ledge]

Ansurek was a different scenario though

[plush roost]

It may be next reset or nerf angle ig

[crystal bone]

i predict it dies next reset

[vale pine]

wdym?

[lilac stag]

Let them cook. This is what they all wanted.

[lucid jackal]

I think double on use is just bait idk

Ofc it has its pros and cons but like idk

[hollow spear]

I think there's niches for it

[vale pine]

we can't predict the future, m+ combos and strateies are in rapid shift and we will see over time if subtlety can keep competing

[plush roost]

I think in m+ double on use is pretty bait

[hollow spear]

It's nice to have in your arsenal

[plush roost]

In raid rn it has its uses

[lilac stag]

Kinda think it’ll have more uses as fight times drop

[alpine wraith]

in m+ it is more powerful to kill the important things in packs

[plush roost]

Ye

[alpine wraith]

you have 2 nukes

[hazy breach]

In aoe we actually do damage outside blades

[lilac stag]

the longer the fight the more krangled it seems to get

[alpine wraith]

instead of 1

[plush roost]

Yeah so a passive trinker is probably better

[hazy breach]

Antenna goes crazy sometimes

[plush roost]

I wouldnt know

My raid is antenna-less

[hazy breach]

Slurping 3 balls right as I press flag

We got like 6 from vault

[crystal bone]

[hazy breach]

Including me

[crystal bone]

i want antenna so bad

[plush roost]

We got 4 belts and boots from our clears on m

Hehe

[lucid jackal]

I took heroic antenna from vault

From our entire mythic clear we got 1 prism

No forge trinket, on any difficulty, no antenna on any difficulty

1 prism on mythic that's it

[plush roost]

Gn curse

[lucid jackal]

We literally never get trinkets as a guild

It's actually so stupid

[plush roost]

Its dans fault

[lucid jackal]

Literally the spk curse

[warm marlin]

repaying debts for the nerubar incident

[left ledge]

We got 0 antennas

[lucid jackal]

Him and archimonde casting hexes on us

[plush roost]

He got resi 20 with us and then said no io gotta go smh

[warm marlin]

the curse of ra has been put upon you

[left ledge]

0 forge

1 prism

[lucid jackal]

Bro it's been happening since vault

We literally didn't see that council trinket until like week 5

[warm depot]

can i ask how this Elementla focusing lens works?

[left ledge]

Random damage proc

[warm depot]

oh ok

[plush roost]

Put it on, does dmg thats it

[warm marlin]

we got 2 antenna off first mythic loomithar kill

[left ledge]

We will get it in vaults

[hazy breach]

Bros guild is sponsored by a telekom company

[left ledge]

What’s vault ilvl

714?

[hollow spear]

707

[hazy breach]

Same as boss drops

[left ledge]

Oh wtf

[hazy breach]

M+ row is 707

[alpine wraith]

depends on how many bosses you killed

if you kill to araz

[left ledge]

So antenna is 707?

[alpine wraith]

you get 710

[hazy breach]

Antenna is 710

[left ledge]

Oh

[alpine wraith]

i dont remember when it got to 714

[vale pine]

nicuuu

[left ledge]

We killed fract

[alpine wraith]

was it demon hunters or frac?

[left ledge]

But idk if that means all drops at 714

[vale pine]

congrats

[alpine wraith]

yes it will

[left ledge]

Or if it just goes up to 714

[lone halo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

does he drop 714?

[lone halo]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[alpine wraith]

if so vault gets upgraded

[left ledge]

I think he does yeah

But so does that mean antenna vault is 714?

[hazy breach]

I dont think thats how it works, unless theyve changed it this tier

[left ledge]

Or 710

Yeah that’s what’s confusing me

I’m hearing conflicting info

Some people saying it drops highest ilvl

[hollow spear]

Wasn't the tech to upgrade to 3/6M because you get 4 ilvl from upgrading 2 to 3

[vale pine]

!up

[left ledge]

Some saying boss

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure it just drops the exact same loot the bosses drop, at hte same ilvl

[left ledge]

I mean it would be crazy op if it dropped higher right

You save like 60 crests

On some things

15-60

[vale pine]

i needed to take the oppotunity to link you a bot command ^^

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

then yes seems soulhunters unable the 714

or wait even araz does

[vale pine]

there is no rare drops anymore

so ye

[left ledge]

Ok bro now I’m more confused

[vale pine]

its all normalized

[alpine wraith]

they changed it this tier

[left ledge]

So if my vault is “714”

ANY item drops 714?

[alpine wraith]

yes you can get 714 antenna

or gate alpha

[left ledge]

Holy fk

That’s new this tier?

[alpine wraith]

biggus crestus savus

yes

they made it mostly for hc

[left ledge]

That’s crazy

[alpine wraith]

but we reap the rewards on M a lot too

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s so op

With limited crests

Means vault is way better than boss drops

[vale pine]

i would be fine with a heroic prism or antenna too in my vault

running normal prism atm

[alpine wraith]

same but best i got was lfr prism

[left ledge]

We got a myth one drop

WW got it I think

Big uppie

[hollow spear]

Got hc prism, now I'm hoping for antenna or forge

[vale pine]

my gf had antenna in the vault

she plays healer/tank

(its good for them too)

[steel jolt]

Healer/tank gf must be nice

[vale pine]

it is, never have problems finding people to do keys with

[hollow spear]

(He needs her to get invited to keys)

Sub rogue mains have to get creative

[vale pine]

haha

[alpine wraith]

i just do my own key nowadays

cba

thankfully only upgrade left is pants or dagger

[vale pine]

think it won't be a problem atm

[alpine wraith]

and i can send all the runed on the other if i get either

[vale pine]

to find keys

sub seems popular enough to get invited

[hollow spear]

I just need a ring

[vale pine]

and there is not many sub players

[hollow spear]

Yeah sub is doing well

[vale pine]

i got the vers/mastery one on heroic

not bad

[hollow spear]

I'm topping all of my keys rn

[vale pine]

it depends on group constellation

arcane does rly good

some other specs/classes too

but subtelty is strong

[lone linden]

prot warriors doing insane dam in keys, just had one do 5m overall dps

[alpine wraith]

yea they blast

[hollow spear]

Absolute pumpers

[west tide]

i know a guy who can take u off the internal blizzard no loot list

[coarse agate]

I need that to kthnx

[hollow spear]

How many years has he worked as a dev there?

[vale pine]

!random 1-10

[wicked jolt]

4

[vale pine]

(its a joke, !random bot command does not work)

[gloomy bone]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/ralph-wiggum-the-simpsons-simpsons-i'm-in-danger-im-in-danger-gif-12212469452113785130

Some classes are harder to play than others, and while some players really like that, they are getting to a tipping point and looking for ways to make them more approachable. The goal is still easy to learn, hard to master.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/haranir-racials-revealed-mrgm-developer-interview-378298?utm_source=discord-webhook

[small hemlock]

sexy

[hazy breach]

Probably not really danger, most of the fun aspect of sub can be kept even if the complexity is reduced, but im sure were high up on the list of classes and specs considered hard to play

[vale pine]

its funny

because that was essentially the feedback i gave realz with the changes

so there is a certain irony

[lucid jackal]

Current sub is peak

[vale pine]

i rly like the current iteration

[fallen crescent]

Facts. This double coup is fun af

[vale pine]

but you can make a lot of things more obviouse/easier to understand

and there is a lot of qol changes you can do without breaking things

[pliant topaz]

i never understand this. are they designing the game for people with no hands, fingers, eyes, monitors?

classes are so dull now

[alpine wraith]

we about to lose sec tech

[pliant topaz]

theres almost no interesting gameplay or nuance left

[alpine wraith]

i kinda hate current blizz thoughs

do they play the game

[vale pine]

to be fair they have the one button thing too

so....

[pliant topaz]

yeah i really hate the direction theyre taking it

its insulting to player base

like theyre saying our player base is so bad

this is too hard and we made a 1 button rotation helper for them

theyve simpliefied everything to the point of litearlly full mastery in 30 minutes of gameplay

[slate marlin]

the issue is obr has been an improvement for a lot of people

that speaks volumes already

[alpine wraith]

i mean i think we are past the days of games in the west having no hard mode because jap devs though we were too bad

[pliant topaz]

fuck it maybe theyre right maybe wow players are genuinly that bad

maybe average wow gamer actually does have 3 wives, 4 kids, 2 morgages and is 95 years old

[alpine wraith]

yea they are that bad but we are kinda in the last bastion of skill

i played 2 or 3 other specs

they are

[slate marlin]

i like sub needing some thought while playing

[alpine wraith]

like

idk how to explain

[lucid jackal]

Sub has a lot of nuance idk

[alpine wraith]

basic?

[pliant topaz]

theres no skill man. it died with dust

[swift tinsel]

Please god don’t make us a whackamole ret spec

[pliant topaz]

like i was soooooo bored of the spec after the .5 patch

[slate marlin]

game has 40 specs

[alpine wraith]

yea even sub is just complicated now

[slate marlin]

so what if a couple are hard

[alpine wraith]

not that there is so much skill expression anymore

just some rules and you follow them

[pliant topaz]

bro which ones hard

[lucid jackal]

U can boil down every spec to this lol

"just follow the rules and do it"

[alpine wraith]

for the general public many are hard

[slate marlin]

for the general public

[alpine wraith]

but lets be honest

fuck the general public? that was the thing in mmos

first they neutered the pvp then the pve

[pliant topaz]

like i get it

every game is trying to simplify a lof of things these days

[alpine wraith]

gear is also a mental construc that lasts 3 or 4 months

[pliant topaz]

even league has said yeah newer champs are very much so simplified

many old things are getting simplified

[alpine wraith]

not much we can do mainly because it gives more money

[pliant topaz]

but theyre sitll introducing some mastery curve and level of neuance

theres like nothing here man

drrr me press evis

me memorize a checklist of 5 rules

me 99 parse

and thats the hard spec

[alpine wraith]

remember to proc 5 diff things when it matters

i miss ICD trinks so much every day

[pliant topaz]

the most fun i had in this game was cooking fyrak dust timers with scana for their prog

or working with exile on the shadow boss dude from enrubar (already forgot name xd )

[lucid jackal]

Kyveza

[pliant topaz]

yea

ty

[warm marlin]

I do think it’s funny when people say things like this because very few are regularly 99 parsing

[lucid jackal]

Current sub has a lot of nuance idk

[alpine wraith]

im a victim i swear!

[lucid jackal]

Using coup properly, sequencing your cds

Knowing when to send vs hold

[warm marlin]

You would think if it were just that simple tons would be blasting

[alpine wraith]

sub is fun ngl i quite like how it is

just i lived a world where it was even cooler

so you know

kinda want it back?

[humble bison]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[pliant topaz]

thats because a lot of parsing is rng and how much damage your guild has etc. but I actually dont know how u can miss 95 minimum every boss unless giga pad type shit

[alpine wraith]

i mean parsing as sub will always be super hard because the few are blasters

i never got a good gally log

because mobs died in 2 secs

[vale pine]

parsing has a lot of factors

[dusk stone]

i want to experience dust sub tbh

[alpine wraith]

it was cool but not for everyone

mainly because blizz decided we only needed 1 stack of SoD

[dusk stone]

yup and sounds goated

[alpine wraith]

and 3 or 4 diff cds with diff timers

[vale pine]

I think my point still stands, there is a lot of complex stuff which could be simple and often is on other classes

e.g. SHT is super complicated

[alpine wraith]

at least realz heard me and chose to give us extra stacks

he killed sepsis but oh well

oh and mfd

[vale pine]

when it could be just anticipation stacks

[alpine wraith]

yea that too

sometimes they make things complicated for no reason

in what world do we need shadowed finishers

[vale pine]

and some things just lead to footguns

for them

[alpine wraith]

or are just downright evil to us

[vale pine]

like secret technique was a major time sink i assume

[tame terrace]

nexus king, better to send flag on cd or hold 2nd flag for platforms?

[vale pine]

coup de grace too probably

[alpine wraith]

like making sepsis strikes no work with premed but work with improv garrote or outlaw ambush things

or making subterfuge useless for sub

[pliant topaz]

depends on how u define complexity. i think these arent complex, just unintuitive / require burden of knowledge

[alpine wraith]

like that is outright hate

[vale pine]

all the damage splitting between debuffs/buffs/etc

[alpine wraith]

also making coup and sec tech 3 and 6 hits

[crystal perch]

sorry if this question gets asked a lot, but when do I press sod when I have no sd's left?

[alpine wraith]

like if the people making the design and the people integrating dont talk at all

[crystal perch]

and when do I hold for cds

[alpine wraith]

or hate each other

or dont talk and hate eachother

[swift tinsel]

It’s a spy vs spy scenario

[hazy breach]

Current iteration is way more fun than dust imo

[alpine wraith]

like surely after the 5th time subterfuge NS sec tech and split dmg on evis/bp gets bugged

they could sit down and talk

even replicating with finality

or finality in general

[swift tinsel]

After the made flag and blades same cd I’m happy with current

[dusk stone]

yeah i just want things to be specifically unaccessible

[pliant topaz]

how different is it than 11.0.5?

[swift tinsel]

As much as I loved dust

[pliant topaz]

like does it feel significantly more engaging?

[dusk stone]

'accessibility' in mmos is something ive had to see for a long time and all it ever does is murder a game

[pliant topaz]

cuz the 11.0.5 was some of the most boring gaming experience ive ever had

[dusk stone]

they did it to swtor some years ago and basically neutered it and broke stuff, despite everyone telling the devs it was a horrible idea

[alpine wraith]

i just want wow to go the whale big boi route

so i can just slam all the noobs with my wallet and my voice will be more important kek

[swift tinsel]

Lemme buy more talent points and let all nodes be paragon-able

[west tide]

realll

[swift tinsel]

Imagine a Sectech with 50 talent points into it

[alpine wraith]

nah just being able to buy mtx and things

[vestal escarp]

Sub good talents lootbox

Lmao

[west tide]

housing is comin dont worry

[alpine wraith]

i cba about housing mounts or pets

[west tide]

they gonna do poe style 800 dollar housing bundle

[alpine wraith]

but i want to just slam some money

like i have dropped like almost 20k by now on poe

and on wow i dont even pay the sub

[keen dome]

I'm gonna put al my talent points into shadowheart

[swift tinsel]

If they added purchasable vfx/six they could afford to pay more devs

[alpine wraith]

yea man pls

[dusk stone]

it depends, its just for supercharged sectec, i can say you do it generally when sectec <9 seconds cd and you're also saving dances but the timing is weird atm with all of our cdr im using it less

[swift tinsel]

For a lifetime

[vale pine]

Anticipation:

• You get stack when you would overflow combo points
• Your next finisher gives you the stacks you have back
  it is easy to visualize as extra combo points and overall simple to understand

SHT:

• You get a stack when you auto attack.
• Stacks are converted into combo points when you use a combo point builder, complicating the process of combo point generation
• Refunds can happen from a Finisher, but have additional constraints:
  • You need to have symbols of death up
  • You need to have more or equal than <max cp> stacks
• There are certain overflow mechanics you can't prevent wastes of the proc
• There are spells which don't interact propper due to how its designed (like wm)

the later is more complex than the former

[alpine wraith]

and maybe even let people design cool mtx and put it on shops

[vale pine]

just in how much things you need to consider in the implementation

[alpine wraith]

so we can have super cool things maybe if even only us can see it

[vale pine]

subtlety is fun, the dust removal was great overall

[swift tinsel]

This would be so fucking cool

[dusk stone]

you know what the wildest things about mmos in general is

[vale pine]

in terms of gamepay

[alpine wraith]

mmos really need some real people directing their monetization

[dusk stone]

developers refuse to make t-mog style things that are good that people will whale for, myself included

its always so aggressively mid

[alpine wraith]

instead of business drones that dont know what the internet is

[vale pine]

there is a tinfoil hat theory about content in mmos

[lucid jackal]

Current sub has the cd movements via dance that existed in dust but less stupid and more intuitive

I love it

[pliant topaz]

i mean its like the first version is more intuitive, the second version is less intuitive, requires more knowledge (ex. wa to track it).

[dusk stone]

which tinfoil hat, is it the tinfoil hat, or the tinfoil hat i use to protect the first one

[pliant topaz]

so like how do u define complexity

[vale pine]

the point isn't only how intuitive it is

[vestal escarp]

Which means 0 because spec is 95% flag window

[vale pine]

but cp overflow is a baseline mechanic you can easy hook something to

[pliant topaz]

i think difficutly comes from the impact of decision making + how hard it is to make the decision

[vale pine]

while sht creates a lot of scripting and special conditions to work

so the complexity goes up

means more bugs too

[pliant topaz]

like if its really hard to know which decision is correct, but the impact of decision is 0

[alpine wraith]

fuu is talking these meatheads literally crafted a more krangled vers wasted time and resources

[pliant topaz]

then its meaningless

[alpine wraith]

for something we already had

i would fire them

[pliant topaz]

its not complex

but if its not trivial to know, and the result of the decision is meaningfully non trivial

then its a complex decision

thats my definition

[wind vault]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lucid jackal]

My definition is that sub is fun therefore its based

[vale pine]

basically, the theory is. Content is intentionally never good, but just good enough.
Because a good experience makes you satisfied and gives you a reason to not play more, a "okay" experience makes you come back in anticipation to get to the point of having the mentioned satisfaction.

which is , just for reference

[dusk stone]

how long you guys think it will take liquid to to finish off the boss with how it looks currently

[vale pine]

something can be complex and have no decision making

[alpine wraith]

it might not die this week

unless they nerf it

[vale pine]

complexity does not mean player interaction or fun

[west tide]

sub is fun i havent played it in a while but im owning araz with it..

[keen dome]

Six minutes from now I will defeat the boss with an umbrella

[west tide]

i just dont know what coup does or any rules and i looked it up and got the spins so ima keep doing me

[vale pine]

i am having fun on sub atm, i could see some qol changes which would not change the gameplay

[west tide]

i just be doin my lil flag windows

[vale pine]

but fundermentally make the spec easier to understand

[vale pine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[west tide]

trickster just confuses tf outta me

[vale pine]

🙂

[west tide]

yeah bro i read that and still im 😵‍💫

[dusk stone]

how is trickster confusing

[vale pine]

its rly just

[lilac stag]

Why are you confused? According to some in here sub is easy.

[pliant topaz]

i think in gaming, the impact is very important. if my dps wont change as the outcome of my decision, then to me the complexity is nothing, because any decision is correct

but again, thats how u define it

[alpine wraith]

sub is complicated and sometimes annoying

[hazy breach]

It has fazed, flawless form and escalating blades. 3 different buffs/debuffs that seem important and kinda are but also kinda arent

[west tide]

mhmm exactly

[hazy breach]

Really hard to gather which one is important at a quick glance

[dusk stone]

i see a lot of people say sub is an easy spec, and then i ask them where their m+ logs are and the person suddenly dissapears it is the oddest thing

[west tide]

last time i played sub i did really well and trickster was a thing but i ignored it

[hazy breach]

Fazed has no reason to exist

[lucid jackal]

Sub is easy but it's hard

[west tide]

like a few raids ago

[keen dome]

Only sometimes?

[west tide]

and it was crankin still so i never bothered

do me lil flag do good dam we up

[fallen marsh]

shrodingers spec

[lucid jackal]

Literally

[lilac stag]

Just press buttons. Oh wait that’s assa.

[west tide]

i like assa

fb a lot

peak tbh

[lilac stag]

it’s chill

[hazy breach]

Surely out new apex talent slaps

[dusk stone]

all of dimensius p3 is damage amp?

[hazy breach]

[vale pine]

i think of it like this.
You can add complexity for the sake of complexity, like with find weakness. It does not create any interesting decision or change your gameplay.
Or you can add complexity to give dynamic, like more stacks of symbols of death and shadow dance, it gives more ways to align cooldowns which increases complexity but this gives dynamic to your cooldown use and feels fun to play around.

The former is what i don't like.
The later is healthy

[hazy breach]

No, literally just the first 15s

[lilac stag]

Tilting when you don’t get coins, but chill.

[keen dome]

I'm excited for apex gloomblade

[lucid jackal]

U have to be positive or your negative vibes will ruin it

[dusk stone]

i was gonna he dies rly slow if there's amp

[lucid jackal]

I mean u can hate the sub rework we got in DF all U want! But shadowcraft is an elite talent

So I'm hopeful for good things

[dusk stone]

also i meant to ask if were on frac

is gloomblade not good since frontstabbing

[warm marlin]

Supercharger

[alpine wraith]

i dont mind the changes just feel sad they feel clearly unfinished

like someone was trying to cook

[keen dome]

Supercharger owns

What a good talent change

[hazy breach]

Its convoluted, but it is fun. Supercharger and bonespike are exceptional changes too

[alpine wraith]

and got told they had to do homework

[hazy breach]

Im hopeful too

[fallen marsh]

ass is fun untill u try to play deathstalker on streets

[lucid jackal]

Yeah supercharger is great

Death perception is also amazing

10/10 talent

[vale pine]

TL;DR:

• If Coup Glows and flagellation comes up soon, you hold coup
• If Flagellation comes up very soon (less than 10 secs), you stop using finishers
• If you are in your 90 sec cooldowns, after first coup use, you use storm once befor a 2nd use of coup.

[pliant topaz]

exactly! perfect analogy. to me, the former is not complexity, its just busy work that means nothing. the 2nd one is complexity

[keen dome]

Baseline gloomblade and poison toggle, those are my wishes

[warm marlin]

Gloomblade is like a 2-3% loss, not having fw from standing in front of the boss is a 2-3% loss, take your pick

[alpine wraith]

the flag and blades changes were also good and the extra SoD was something i was asking since dust became a thing

[lucid jackal]

I remember you fuckers hating sod stacks too

[upper narwhal]

unironically learned sub in m+ for this shit dungeon

[pliant topaz]

subs getting a new talent?

[alpine wraith]

we didnt hate them we loved them just were super weak without the extra amp

[lilac stag]

I mind how much of our talents are absolutely useless or just gating a talent path.

[hazy breach]

Everybody are

[alpine wraith]

yea time ran out unluck

[lilac stag]

Need a new dev first.

[warm marlin]

stop generalizing us guy

[alpine wraith]

wait until next expansion

[lucid jackal]

No that goes against my narrative

Same way you guys doubted sub would be OP this tier

[fallen marsh]

i did that shit once and crashed out and hardswapped to feral

[pliant topaz]

yes i did for a different reason. I hated them because htey were a bandaid on a core problem.

[lucid jackal]

You guys: "everybody except for me obviously"

[hazy breach]

Well i think just tying it to dance instead is just better, since we pretty much always use dance+symbols anyway

[upper narwhal]

Sub is giga fun rn I just wish the AoE was more intuitive with nimble vs powder

[hazy breach]

Extra symbols stacks just feels like a bandaid until they can bother removing symbols

[lucid jackal]

Ik most people hated it but I kinda loved the dry symbols of last patch

[hazy breach]

But ye its fun

[lucid jackal]

I'm usually in the camp of symbols and dance should be the same button

[west tide]

ok i took a screenshot and gonna try to learn this hehe

[pliant topaz]

^ its litealrly a bandaid to help give u extra cdr so u can get the dances back

[lucid jackal]

But with supercharger, symbols stacks feels great

[pliant topaz]

what dust did with its cdr

it gives u extra sod charges because dust would already reset yoursod

so u could carry them over for the entire flag window

so yes, i hated them for that they were litearlly a bandaid to help fix issues that dust solved

[alpine wraith]

and changed none of the bad talents

[upper narwhal]

alternatively SoD stacks fixed an issue that removing dust would create

[pliant topaz]

and their position is also disgustingly bad

[upper narwhal]

and removing dust was the best decision

[flint sundial]

!macro

[pliant topaz]

and they were tuned so low, we werent gonna take them anyways

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hazy breach]

But yeah current sub is peak gameplay wise, just hard to get into and it could stay peak without having such a steep learning curve

[upbeat cradle]

is the shuriken in between coup only true during the burst cd ?

[warm marlin]

I like dry symbols

[alpine wraith]

yea only with blades

[warm marlin]

But it should be merged with dance to solve certain issues

[upbeat cradle]

kinda makes sense tbh, thanks for confirming tho

[warm marlin]

Raw symbols 👍
Raw dance

[alpine wraith]

makes sense when they make all energy be useless

[upper narwhal]

you can vanish-storm outside of dance for the double coup but it's kinda whatever

[alpine wraith]

without sod

then you pop sod in dance then energy just disappears

[lilac stag]

Now 4 pc fixes more of the spec. Unironically I’m expecting it to just disappear and back to the base spec still having CDR issues. Them working on the spec to any deep level seems like cope. Havoc is just as irritated with lack of actual attention. One common thread.

It’ll be fine come midnight. 100%

Until then blast in m+

[hazy breach]

Idk i dont think the 4p really fixes anything, it doesnt give that much more cdr, its just a shiny button that feels good to press

On average its one extra dance every 10m

[lilac stag]

Feels good to press fixes a lot for many

[alpine wraith]

gives the burst back a bit

[dusk stone]

4pc makes u do damage outside of flag

[alpine wraith]

makes us forget last set was 80% nerfed

[dusk stone]

thats why it feels good

its also a bit of a higher skill check which is nice

[lilac stag]

I still want dmg shifted into dance and not flag but

[alpine wraith]

i would not mind doing my dmg in 10 secs at most

and not 30

but that battle is already lost i think

[warm marlin]

Flag/blades being merged would help compress it!

[haughty mural]

But solution for havoc will be Devourer

Dw

[lilac stag]

And apparently he did nothing on it

[dusk stone]

devouer prob wont have funnel so who knows if its good

[haughty mural]

Whatever he does ig (:

[dusk stone]

most good specs ive seen so far have funnel

dk arcane sin

[mystic bough]

How do we use prism? We ever use the on-use?

[lilac stag]

funnel, cleave, it’s all getting homogenized

[dusk stone]

brother the on use is the only reason we use prism

[alpine wraith]

you can use it every 1:30 or 3 mins

both are ok

it just wont work on pull

[lilac stag]

Dance dmg + combo please and thank you

[mighty citrus]

In what regard?

[alpine wraith]

or well be very weak

[vale pine]

we would still need a bit more cdr on dance to get a nice cooldown flow

[haughty mural]

If all our bugs are getting fixed we are beyond broken

We are already really good in this raid

[dusk stone]

coup optimization, not wasting 2nd coup going coup sectec coup sometimes and sectec coup coup on others depending

an additional layer of optimization more or less

[drowsy moon]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[mystic bough]

So I assume we won't macro it to sb?

[dusk stone]

its not the worst

[haughty mural]

You can do that

[dusk stone]

but do something else if you can

i have my blades macro and my prism + blades macro

[haughty mural]

But you can also use it manually

[dusk stone]

same button one deletes bigger packs