subtlety

[void needle]

I hate rets

[vale pine]

worthless in what reguard?

[void needle]

Every key I've bricked this season... fuckin rets

[vale pine]

we have 3 figths subtlety is bad on, but then also have a lot of fights we can offset it with burst damage

so just for a mind experiment

if the tier had 6 figths like this

or lets say the last 3 would be the showen ones

suddenly, patchwerk would matter a lot

[winter ice]

Dang I didn’t know sub was bottom 5 st

[void needle]

The 3 fights we're bad on are patchwerk style. But patchwerk sims are worthless? That's over a third of the raid. I would say they have value, but they aren't the whole picture

[vale pine]

so, subtlety is still shit on st. It just happens that fight timers, burst adds and vulnerability manage to balance it out in a way benefitial to us

[lucid jackal]

well thankfully in wow you play a class not a spec

and on some of the actual walls of the raid, mainly forgeweaver, and sarad sub is literally the best spec in the game on these encounters

[clever holly]

Do I always shiruken storm after coup? Or only in dance? Or even more only in blades window?

And does anyone Already have an audio wa for when coup gets ready

[vale pine]

only in blades

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[winter ice]

I main surv hunter I don’t touch those bow specs, disgusting

[lucid jackal]

Sub ST is bad, in a vaccuum, but wow rarely asks this on the actual hard encounters

[void needle]

🤣 I don't play sin. I also don't play outlaw until later when I can make a second gearset

If anything I'd play my alt feral for a fight before swapping sin

[vale pine]

if rogue is "you play a class and not a spec", why did assassiantion need a massive aoe rework where one patch was entirely spend on it and which leads to it being the basically only spec played in m+ ever since?

[clever holly]

Sin is so nice to play on those st fights since u can play fb

[vale pine]

outlaw and sub both ended up played in m+ before, and nobody i talked with asked for this change (world first raider, streamer, etc)

wow is very much a game designers try to make you be able to decide on your preferences, unless you min/max for wfr

[winter ice]

What even was subs aoe damage profile before trickster..? Just spamming bp

[vale pine]

yes

tho secret did like 30%+ more damage

they nerfed secert

[lucid jackal]

what

[void needle]

Still is if you play deathstalker for some god unknown reason

[vale pine]

your argument

isn't your argument

its fine to be worse st in game, if you still find use on later encounters due to niches?

i might misunderstood

[clever holly]

I'd say it's OK to do less dmg if it still feels good to play the spec (cba for double on use)

[vale pine]

i think the idea is okay

to have a more classical gameplay archetype

its just deathstalker was not designed well

[winter ice]

Until m+ became a spec simulator

[lucid jackal]

My argument is "ST patchwork sims arent the video game"

[void needle]

Regardless, this whole argument is silly. The only major point I took issue with is saying that patchwerk sims are completely useless. Taking the entire thing as gospel and not acknowledging the whole picture is an undersight many people make. But as shown there are 3 patchwerk style fights in the raid where sub is reflected pretty well by the sim data.

[vale pine]

oh okay, how does "you play a spec, and not a class" matter then?

it feels disconnected to the argument at hand

[lucid jackal]

Using ST patchwork sims to evaluate how good your spec is, is dumb

[clever holly]

I'm playing with friends and they even drag my blue and green geared dog shid shadow through weekly 10s and we go up to like 15s so it really doesn't matter to us

[keen dome]

Because Rogue is the sum of it's parts, rather than just one single spec?

[lucid jackal]

that's been my argument for a long time

Which is entierly true

[void needle]

True

[haughty mural]

thats not the point

we all agree with that

[lucid jackal]

again, sub is "the worst st spec in the game" yet its the best spec in the game on the 2 walls of the raid

[haughty mural]

(atleast i think that wasnt the point)

[vale pine]

[lucid jackal]

What patchwork fight is actually hard in this raid

[keen dome]

All of them.. In pugs

[vale pine]

thats a tuning thing

[lucid jackal]

Its literally just fractillis'

[vale pine]

also depends on boss placement

but i repeat myself i feel, how releavant patchwerk is depends on how the raid is designed

we had raid tiers patchwerk was relevant

i think DF s4 did show the diffrence in raid design a LOT

[clever holly]

Sludgefist?

[lucid jackal]

Sludgefist would be a good sub fight

[keen dome]

It's ultimately just a reference tool rather than the absolute. A good measure of potential output in a vacuum which is useful. Speaking of sims, does anybody remember that trinket in BfA S2 from.. hm. Who was it

[vale pine]

because s4 had mixed raid deisgnes, and subtlety was the most flexible with the highest burst

[keen dome]

It simmed incredibly high, but the reality was it was extremely bad because there was no situation where you could realistically use it the way a sim would.

[vale pine]

yet, nobody played it

[void needle]

As far as gear sims go, patchwerk is still extremely relevant. The only discrepancy with pure st vs aoe is that the prio shifts more like mas=vers>crit, to mas>vers=crit. With 3 targets staying relatively close to the st prio

[fossil forge]

Sublety eating good this patch

[vale pine]

because it turnes out, this only mattered in 1/3 raids

[keen dome]

Sub is so good this patch

[vale pine]

neverless, patchwerk alone is def. not good to know balance

especially because m+ exist now

[keen dome]

What's the most common WoW fight these days?

[vale pine]

and fights are often with damage amps or adds

[keen dome]

From a design perspective?

[vale pine]

hard to say

[keen dome]

Cleave with light movement and a generic mechanic randomly assigned?

[vale pine]

you also need to ask

what fights are tuned high enough for it to matter

[fossil forge]

Finally feel like im doing something actually

[vale pine]

because inherently, as discussed

sub is terrible first 2 bosses

but its first 2

and e.g. guy cares about "last 2"

[keen dome]

Ye, absolutly. A lot of the thoughts I have about Sub and "you've gotta play it on X!!" is just.. Sure, but that's only going to matter for an absolute minority of players. And for a majority, they can play what they personally enjoy the most.

[vale pine]

more than the these

[clever holly]

Do I craft a dagger since I got no weapon in my vault?

[vale pine]

it is center of the discussion

[vale pine]

yes

[keen dome]

Ye

Big dagger stonks, MH is our best friend and biggest gain so if no Myth dagger, a 720 crafted is huge.

And then it can become your OH once you get a Myth one

[clever holly]

Okay

[vale pine]

offhand is the worse item slot tho

haha

[haughty mural]

better than nothing

[keen dome]

Ye, but I'm saying that your crafted isn't wasted if next week you get a Myth dagger

[clever holly]

We will go loomitar third so it is a bit far away

[vale pine]

oh no

you also don't need to craft another embellishment

[keen dome]

Ye

[vale pine]

or enchant another weapon

XD

[keen dome]

Our crafted MH is really efficient imo

[haughty mural]

nodders

[clever holly]

Got socket first week and now myth tier helmet in vault so not even sad about no weapon

[keen dome]

Nice

[vale pine]

i might take socket or heroic shoulders (non tier) from vault

not sure yet

[keen dome]

I got the PSF ring. Which is nice since it's extremely good and I didn't see it once last season

[nova cairn]

@vale pine I have a question idk if you will know the answer

[keen dome]

I will take an item I'm using the entire season in week 2. Big wins.

[vale pine]

well, just ask

[nova cairn]

If I upgrade HC cloak boots to full

will it go be mythic lvl on the green text

[keen dome]

It doesn't change the % proc 🙁

[nova cairn]

@woven ruin

Damn

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[hollow spear]

Saying that ST sims are completely useless even for patchwerk fights and when being pushed on it retreating to "patchwerk fights don't matter (this tier)" is not the greatest of arguments imo.

[keen dome]

I was hoping it would too but nah. It's locked to the item regardless of iLevel.

[tame terrace]

hm

how would i use lily + prism

[keen dome]

So a 6/6H is always going to be 40%

[tame terrace]

lily until prism is high stacks?

any ideal stack or just like general 10+

[woven ruin]

gg only good idea ill have all tier

[void needle]

Same as forge/prism. But worse overall, ideally run prism/passive unless you have forge

[vale pine]

lets just agree that patchwerk is only one part of the equation and that other factors matter.
Basically i like to say, a tool is just as good as the one using it, and this is very true for simulations.

[winter ice]

Save for amp in amp fights if not I macro it to sblades

[tame terrace]

ah forgot to clarify

in m+

[fossil forge]

8-18

[keen dome]

They should've made it so that the catalyst converted boots into set boots with the proc on it! It would've been so good!

[winter ice]

Macro into blades and just send

[keen dome]

But alas, only I am smart enough to have such smart and good ideas about the catalyst

[void needle]

Just alternate, first pull before you have any stacks. Send your lily, use prism next cds

[woven ruin]

way above bliiz pay grade for an idea

[hollow spear]

I absoluty agree with the point that they shouldn't be used the way they are right now. But taking it to the other extreme isn't a solution either.

[fossil forge]

Lily + prism or antenna and prism ? 🧐

[vale pine]

yep

[vale pine]

antenna

[hollow spear]

Lily and prism sounds kinda ass

[keen dome]

prism and a second prism

[vale pine]

the agi on the trinket is huge too

[keen dome]

Please

[vale pine]

haha

[fossil forge]

U mean araz?

[vale pine]

next xpac

[hollow spear]

If I had to go double on use without having forge, I'd go pvp trinket and prism.

[vale pine]

blizz makes a holy and a shadow version of prism

so we can play double prism

[void needle]

Yall see them getting droptimized because of stat distribution though? It's actually worth it to use an extra catalyst on them to get the mastery

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[vale pine]

(would be fun at least)

[keen dome]

Speaking of prism. I was actually shocked how much damage the proc stack did in an M+ I ran last night

It ended up doing around 3% of my overall

It did more than the Soul Hunters trinket lol

[vale pine]

haha

i still use bubbling wax

on my mainhand

[fossil forge]

Havent tried it in raid yet but it does insane dmg in m+

But no trinket for first pull

or send low stacks

[vale pine]

you can in theory stack it pre pull

[keen dome]

Low stacks is still ptoentially 6 - 9k agility

[vale pine]

its just... not very practical

[fossil forge]

Only few

[keen dome]

PvP trinke t at 704 is 17k agility.

[shadow lance]

It resets

No?

[fossil forge]

It resets when dung starts

[vale pine]

think not

[fossil forge]

So while they gather mobs u can get 3-5 stacks

[vale pine]

everything resets on dungeon start

you also symbols directly when dungeon start

get it back by the time you do first pack usually

and get 2 free superchargers

[keen dome]

Can we pre-stack it before bosses in the raid, out of interest? Or is it part of the reset on pull?

I haven't had time to try yet

[vale pine]

i would need to test, but iirc it does not reset

[shadow lance]

It's 1 stack per 10 sec, I wonder how you get 5 stacks while tank is gathering

[keen dome]

Alright guys I'm gonna need 180 second pull timers

[fossil forge]

Is it ?

I though its random proc

[keen dome]

It's 1 stack every 10 seconds

[chrome palm]

I believe this was fixed

[fossil forge]

That makes sense

[chrome palm]

And now it resets

[vale pine]

oh nvm

[proper eagle]

Do you guys refill rupture in burst window? Even though it has over 9s?

[vale pine]

thought of something else

seems like it resets

[void needle]

Have you seen some of the top parsers running double oathsworn tenacity? You only get about 8% extra uptime doing it because of icd. Goofballs, I don't even think this parses well unless it's not tracking correctly

[shadow lance]

I'm 90% sure it reset

[vale pine]

ye

[keen dome]

I'll check later when I pug hunters for some booties

[vale pine]

well, we have other things that don't

disoriented strikes and first 2 supercharger stacks

[still anvil]

in m+ you can use prism between putting the key in and the key actually starting, it disappears at like 2s of the countdown so in some dungeons you can get some value out of it depending on pulls

(and prestack it on like a dummy or sth)

[keen dome]

Interesting, good to know

Yeah

[vale pine]

haha, that sounds painful

i love it

[keen dome]

Too much effort for me but good to know

[fossil forge]

All subs dummymaxxing this szn

[still anvil]

thank god it's not useful in like.. all dungeons

[void needle]

Disoriented strikes is mega bugged. It never falls off

[shadow lance]

I trust the sim, I use the vers enchant

[vale pine]

think thats intentional

similar to supercharger

[keen dome]

Oh, I should resim my weapon enchants

[void needle]

On mainhand only though right?

[keen dome]

I keep forgetting to do that

[shadow lance]

Both

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shadow lance]

Robot says, I do

[vale pine]

depends on gear

but ye

always sim

[shadow lance]

I think I should put crit

[keen dome]

Ye. It's telling me to put two crit enchants on my weapons

[shadow lance]

For FtB sin

[vale pine]

speaking about tragety

i got haste yesterday from alchemic chaos

[keen dome]

gross

[void needle]

Gross

[shadow lance]

Gross

[haughty mural]

thats why i use vers flask

[shadow lance]

I use Chaos when I have to switch between sub and sin

[void needle]

But a little haste actually doesn't hurt us too badly. Simmed bis stat distribution at mythic gear this season shows 10% of overall stat points in haste being better than stacking the others higher

[shadow lance]

I guess fuu too

[clever holly]

For mini cds do I wait for coup so I can supercharge it or even use coup before and then supercharge sec tec and second coup?

[vale pine]

i only play sub

but i felt like i can gamble for heroic reclear

[shadow lance]

Nvm then ahaha

[still anvil]

stronger than me

[vale pine]

i mean, i try out sin/outlaw on ptr or early patch usually

[void needle]

Both coups in your sod dance. But use sectech first global

[vale pine]

but then always decide, meh... i like sub gameplay more

and because i am not in wfr or top 20 world rank

i can play whatever

https://tenor.com/view/bubu-dancing-dance-happy-dance-bubu-cat-gif-13759391442761662032

[void needle]

This. But feral alt and outlaw late season.

[still anvil]

I would like to always play sub, but even though its not strictly necessary, im still cursing myself to play the optimal spec within reason

[vale pine]

wfr plays sub last 2 bosses

so its the optimal spec

ofc

[void needle]

I wouldn't bother. Sin is ass to play

[fossil forge]

This but occasionally swap for the currently op dk spec

[tight sparrow]

im simming 300k less with double on use / ive 717 pacemaker and 710 araz / 704 prism but in m+ double on use feels better.

[vale pine]

i think its fun to play alts

[void needle]

Get it guys? Sin is "Ass" ahaha

[vale pine]

i tried many, but well

[still anvil]

yea ofc but I wouldn't want to play sub on like fractillus or sth
(if it's still a damage check when we reach it)

[fossil forge]

It gave me a diff perspective on the game

[vale pine]

fair

[fossil forge]

Playing on more chars

[vale pine]

fractilus is ... not a fun sub fight

first 2 mythic it does not matter

luckily

(becuase these bosses are not tuned as tight)

[still anvil]

first 2 don't matter, loomithar I will play sin when im back, forgeweaver clearly sub

I really don't want to play sin on soul hunters but I guess I will have to see

[vale pine]

i love sniping adds on forge

fun

[winter ice]

Fake rogue player smh

[vale pine]

lol

[void needle]

sin isn't good on that fight either

[tame terrace]

sub feels so good on stone guy

in hoa

[vale pine]

true rogue players only play outlaw, because gamba is life

[void needle]

WIth the anklebiter adds dissapearing instantly?

[still anvil]

when the 2nd sec tech lines perfectly with the first add spawn...

[void needle]

Yeah

[tame terrace]

yea

[vale pine]

whats our favorite dungeon this season

i like echo dome the most so far

[winter ice]

Easily eco dome

[clever holly]

Yeah playing bleed build and have tank not pull adds onto the boss so he can gap u in st is so good -.-

[still anvil]

meeeee I love eco dome

[rapid forum]

Eco dome is banger

[vale pine]

tho on the bright side

[haughty mural]

Dawnbreaker is also good

[vale pine]

ct and your aoe goes stonk

[still anvil]

I played 1 key as sin, realized I don't even have 1h tricks and decided to never do it again

[void needle]

We fuck up eco dome, floodgate, streets, dawnbreaker, priory. Everything else is still fine for us

[vale pine]

i disslike dragon flying in dungeons, idk why

[haughty mural]

fair point

[clever holly]

No on the bright side I just swap to sub

[haughty mural]

but the rest is not too bad and sub feels really good in that key

[vale pine]

thats also good

[void needle]

You also don't get that insane upfront burst that rips threat though. You can still pre dot before plant with default tricks

[clever holly]

Eco dome do you get second sec tec in dmg Amp on second boss?

[vale pine]

i love how the community could decide on dungeons this season

and instead of selcting the fun ones

[still anvil]

it was a fake decision imo

[vale pine]

they went with "what has the best trinkets"

[still anvil]

we had either this, or repeat more dungeons from last season, or take the ones that are even less fun

[vale pine]

so we got some very ... not great dungeons

[still anvil]

it should've been 2 dungeons chosen not 4 imo

[void needle]

And the trinkets were still tuned in comparison to the new ones anyways

[clever holly]

Grimrail all over again?

[keen dome]

high5, same

I'm the puglord so they're lucky I'm even looking at the boss

[vale pine]

haha

[haughty mural]

i'd love having the arcway in a rotation

unpopular opinion i think

[vale pine]

eye was a fun dungeon

i love giga pulls

legion had some bangers

[haughty mural]

cathedral

[clever holly]

Give me that prison thing with 15 min timer and u only get like 2 minute did for +1 to +3 Was it violett hold

[still anvil]

idk i would just love to see some dungeons return that I haven't seen recently
and if they end up being bad so be it

[vale pine]

only thing i did not like about arcway was how long the dungeon is

[still anvil]

seat, cathedral, arcway, eye
not universally liked but I still want to play them again

very very fair

[vale pine]

i also love how

[haughty mural]

besides seat im with you

[vale pine]

nobody wants to play maw of souls again

haha

[clever holly]

The grind xD

[runic trail]

Give us the prison dungeon with the bugs still in

Do it

[haughty mural]

for the maw of souls experience i need dfa to fall through the ships floor

[runic trail]

I want to suffer

[still anvil]

tol dagor? 😨

[runic trail]

Yes

[vale pine]

legion classic in a few years for sure

[void needle]

Give me De Other Side again, I want to see the gnomes drown

[still anvil]

I just want to properly press dfa again
just 1 more time please
I still have the opener in muscle memory

[vale pine]

dfa was goated

tho secret is very similar

[void needle]

Where'd sepsis go? XD

[tame terrace]

hoa as sub is chill

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/out-disappear-bye-vanished-gif-4932063

[tame terrace]

just free eating dam on 2nd boss

[vale pine]

nice

[clever holly]

To hell where it belongs

[fossil forge]

Bring back Dos.

[still anvil]

I was disappointed in secret in the beginning, because it didnt have the right feeling for me
but now I don't really mind it and im starting to like it

[tame terrace]

no idea how to beat my feral friend tho

in overal

[still anvil]

distract them

[tame terrace]

lol

[clever holly]

Ddos

[still anvil]

throw them a toy or distract them with treats it works every time

[haughty mural]

invite a shaman

[void needle]

What race do yall play? Dracthyr peak btw

[tame terrace]

undead

[still anvil]

vulpera

[void needle]

I think that's the only wrong answer XD

[void needle]

Gliding + an aoe stop + passive 2% mast. I'm telling you dracthyr is best

[haughty mural]

i was dracthyr a short time - till i had transmitter..

[void needle]

lmao ^

[still anvil]

never insult her again

[tame terrace]

theres only 2 races i woudl race swap to

[void needle]

Ugly little rat

[shadow lance]

Dwarf enjoyer here

[haughty mural]

i just fotmd maghar after that

[void needle]

Maghar is not even enough dps increase to talk about lmao

[still anvil]

ive been dwarf the entire time but got tired of having to constantly transmitter to something i like
and then i decided to stop caring and just swapped

[vale pine]

undead enjoyer

[tame terrace]

hell yea

[tame terrace]

huge

bro im handicapping myself to give everyone else a chance

[void needle]

It's like 80k dps vs maghar

[haughty mural]

race sims in your sheet updated btw ?

if we're at it

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

i don't think i added race sims

7 Minutes simulation
8 Minutes simulation

but i ran these yesterday

[void needle]

https://bloodmallet.com/chart/rogue/subtlety/races/castingpatchwerk

[vale pine]

because someone asked

[void needle]

This one is up to date

If you're curious about WoW racism

[still anvil]

omg im not even last

huge news

[void needle]

At 5 targets undead is "dead" last

God yall see that shit again?

I'm full of em today

[haughty mural]

not that race matters

[vale pine]

i mean

undead is 1.5% behind on st

haha

so its never rly good

[tame terrace]

yep

its awful

[shadow lance]

I play dwarf cuz little character hide easier in the shadows. Whole RP

[void needle]

And a pvp racial that's terrible in pve content lmao

[tame terrace]

except when ti isnt

can just eat some fears

instead of cloaking

[void needle]

Ahhhh, yes the whole 3 of them in the last decade XD

[tame terrace]

🙂

[odd rock]

treats? where O_O

[still anvil]

time to play worst simming spec worst simming race (swapping to lightforged draenei sub rogue)

[vale pine]

on single target

ye

haha

you love the challange

[still anvil]

I haven't really followed dimensius prog
why is sub better than sin?

[haughty mural]

burst

[vale pine]

less trade offs

[haughty mural]

and that

[vale pine]

sin fatebound is strong in st, sub can do aoe/cleave without big trade offs

while not suffering from downtime much

burst between sub and sin should be about the same

[still anvil]

I was just wondering whether the cleave in p1 and p2 justifies losing single target over the course of the fight, idk how tight the dmg checks are

[rapid forum]

Tricks them on pull

[vale pine]

subtlety is just a bit more flexbile

and thats perfect for a wfr situation

[still anvil]

fair

[rapid forum]

Sub is also less annoying in cleave/aoe

[still anvil]

who knows, depending on where exactly they bottleneck in late progression, there might be a swap ig?

[rapid forum]

Imagine worrying about Mark and vanish for soulbinder/araz/soulhunters 💀

[sand flax]

the macro is on both action bar (stealth and not stealth)

is there a way to bypass and doing a /castsequence macro ?

[graceful mulch]

how decent is the Blizz Suggested Rotation for sub? cause I tried learning sub before it, and my brain just kind of melted (and if it's crap, how would one learn it?)

[vale pine]

what exactly is not working

cold blood is off gcd

so it should work in a macro just fine

!scbug

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[tulip gorge]

Are you guys ready for the sub nerfs after rwf?

[vale pine]

^ this is the only think i can assume causes issues

[vale pine]

unlikely

[still anvil]

they asked for a solution that is not relog in the original question, but like.. I don't think there is one?

[tulip gorge]

Sub is basically doing what fury did in season 1

[still anvil]

that would be crazy

[tulip gorge]

And we know how that one ended

[sand flax]

but relogging at each log ?

[vale pine]

wfr: plays multiple warlocks and mages:
rob: they for sure nerf rogue with ONE entire rogue played on most fights

[vale pine]

relogging after switching between the specs

[tulip gorge]

Hey man I have no faith in blizzard

[rapid forum]

And didn't liquid bench rog on sentinel?

[tulip gorge]

I bet mages will escape unscathed somehow

[vale pine]

yes

they palyed rogue-less

[rapid forum]

So rog doesn't even have 100% representation

[still anvil]

I mean the first bosses are just loot optimization

[vale pine]

because rogue is the class you can drop the easiest

better nerf rogue

[rapid forum]

And rog is already the least played class isn't it

So it's not like guilds are drowning in 20 rogs on bench

[vale pine]

nope

but its a bit on blizz

rogue has not seen a lot of modernization

[winter ice]

Im a rogue on bench for prog

[vale pine]

assassination was changed to appeal to the more casual player with a very simple baseline rotation

[rapid forum]

Surely they announce the rogue glow up coming in midnight any minute now

[vale pine]

but outside of that, we still have a lot of problems which makes us less intressting and fun to play

[rapid forum]

Right

Right?

Right....?

[vale pine]

midnight introduced a dh spec

[still anvil]

I could use a glow up (doesn't have to be rogue)

[vale pine]

which very much feels like it has a similar theme to current subtlety

[clever holly]

So 50 billion people per pug raid will roll on my leather gear

[limpid sage]

what'd you guys craft? I'm considering ring since I'm stuck with this shit

[knotty depot]

I'm not sure it does, it leans more into the "void eats everything there" rather than "master of shadows"

[rapid forum]

Wrist

[void needle]

I ended up crafting ring

[haughty mural]

ring wrist neck

[rapid forum]

But I swap between sub and sin so having dagger + wrist for embellish is nice

[knotty depot]

crafted wrist since I use ascencion as well

[vale pine]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Void

[knotty depot]

yes agreed, they share a power source like Paladins and Priests

[vale pine]

shadow/void is essentially the same, subtlety did try to get its identity via shadow-y themes

[clever holly]

https://tenor.com/view/genki-dama-spirit-bomb-goku-gif-12526925

Void dh like

[tulip gorge]

the spec is called devourer

it is about consuming

[limpid sage]

fk it I'm rolling neck

[tulip gorge]

subtlety is just using shadow magic

[knotty depot]

They're both void-tied but with very different approach

[vale pine]

yes, and dh is about sacrafice

[knotty depot]

and there's nothing subtle about devourer dh

[vale pine]

and the initial DH iteration was

to quote almost every content creator back then

"dh is a worse rogue"

[rapid forum]

When was that said

Didn't legion dh blast

[vale pine]

dh saw a lot of change over the year to establish a unique gameplay/style

[tulip gorge]

maybe they will do a sub rework

to fit with the expansion

who knows

[vale pine]

ofc

[haughty mural]

better not rework sub

[vale pine]

dh was popular back then

[tulip gorge]

although they made an expansion about death and DK barely saw changes in shadowlands

[vale pine]

because illidan

[haughty mural]

just fix things and remove useless stuff

[rapid forum]

Yes it will be deleted and rog will get a tank specc

[vale pine]

everyone wanted to play illidan

and we had every 2nd dh with a name variation of illidan

[rapid forum]

Illlllidan

Illidann

[shadow lance]

DH is an edgier rogue

[rapid forum]

The voices

[void needle]

DanIllin

[rapid forum]

Na sub is the edgiest specc in the game

Literally the emo of wow

[vale pine]

lillidan, illydan, willidan, ÎIÌDun, ....

[shadow lance]

"I sacrifice everything, and you?"

[vale pine]

but dh, even tho game play wise very similar to rogue (basically a simplified rogue)

had some banger animations

[rapid forum]

Ye

[vale pine]

so that carried a lot

[rapid forum]

Our animations suck

[shadow lance]

You can't understand me, I'm different, I sacrificed my life for Azeroth

Can't be more emo

[rapid forum]

In every specc

All 3 rog specs look so boring

[vale pine]

idk

[rapid forum]

They had giga opportunity with new ks

But fumbled hard

[vale pine]

i think all 3 could look insane

[tulip gorge]

I feel like the subtle animations are part of the charm of the class

[rapid forum]

Could

But they don't sadge

[haughty mural]

disagreed

[vale pine]

assassiantion as plague master
outlaw as pirate
And
subtlety as some shadow themed assassin

[void needle]

At least they fixed ks, just be happy with that

[rapid forum]

It feels shit

[tulip gorge]

Well I like playing low fantasy stuff

[rapid forum]

Outlaw is literally an afk boomer specc now

The channel happens so often and feels so slow

[tulip gorge]

I like assa and outlaw a lot

Maybe sub should have flashier abilities

[haughty mural]

usually i do too - but i also like that my special abilities look special

[tulip gorge]

Since they are basically a ninja from naruto

[haughty mural]

even the mini added coup animation makes it feel so much better to press imo

[void needle]

At least it doesn't just kill you sometimes like old ks did. If you KS while being sent to the lower platform on last boss in ToP, you just die.

[tulip gorge]

I wish they would add an alternate animation to shadowstrike

So it doesn’t repeat itself

It looks weird

[vale pine]

Rogue could be this: (google images, could do better with more time to find/search)

[rapid forum]

Ye ik, but still don't play it and stick to sub and sin for now

I want outlaw to be 300apm bomboclatt again

[tulip gorge]

New KS looks great though

I wish it was louder

[rapid forum]

There is a weak aura that blasts your ears when you hit ks

That one made it playable

[cinder axle]

Rogue is a fun to play class while every button you press feels visualy shit 😄

if u compare it to DH or Pala its just not the thing the casual player wants

[void needle]

I'm the right kind of stupid that made that shit playable and fun for me

[vale pine]

rogue has a lot of outdated things

e.g. energy management is an alient concept for many

[clever holly]

Also I think it's time for some visual upgrades

Paladins mages shadows shamans all look cool

But rogues and stuff like warriors meh

[cinder axle]

they could make Secret Technigue feel like the big hit it is visualy but I dont even notice the shadows attacking 😄

[vale pine]

also glass cannon with long cooldowns and no resets is kinda hard to sell

if its tuned like non glass cannon classes

rogue has the worse leveling for that reason

[tulip gorge]

They shouldn’t change it imo

What’s the point of energy if you can just spam as much as you want

[void needle]

How much do you guys min/max gems? I'm about to rip my balls off

[tulip gorge]

I just run sims

[rapid forum]

I thought about that too

Like I can level no problem since I have couple k hours on the class

But

[next trout]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[rapid forum]

Like a new guy, picking up rog

How the hell does he make it to max level

[vale pine]

he usually does not

[rapid forum]

The game already super new player unfriendly

[vale pine]

people test rogue

[rapid forum]

But rogue levelling is Smth else

[vale pine]

then go for warrior, paladin or dk

and see how much easier thinsg are

[rapid forum]

I can't fault them for that

[runic trail]

I have a cooked idea for energy which is probably terrible.

Damaging abilities? 0 energy. Our defensives become toggles that drain energy over time.

Wanna sprint? Toggle and use energy.
Evasion? Toggle. Cloak? Toggle.

[vale pine]

and thats why we have 10x the amount of paladin players ^^

[void needle]

The sims that are limited to 28 combinations and 6 gems at a time?

[runic trail]

Like the idea will probably fall completely flat given any amount of thought

[tulip gorge]

They need to fix energy regen issues while leveling

[runic trail]

But, I think its neat

[rapid forum]

It's op

300 energy on sin

[tulip gorge]

Assa will have an aneurysm

[rapid forum]

30 seconds cloak 💀

Ofc numbers would need to chNge

[runic trail]

This can be changed with the energy rework

[rapid forum]

But it's a hard to balance slippery slope

[runic trail]

It wouldn't work just slapped on now, but yeah, thematically it works

[vale pine]

ironically

[rapid forum]

First they need to delete hero talents

[tulip gorge]

Energy doesn’t need rework

[rapid forum]

Get that shit out of my sight

[vale pine]

the most loved assassiantion version

[orchid sand]

fuu do we have a deeper stratagem and secret stratagem bug aswell? last night went 5cp on a boss and when i swapped back to st i was stuck on 5cp until relog

[vale pine]

was one where energy was non existent

[tribal blade]

damn look at sub chat when we're doing well

sheeesh

[vale pine]

i am not aware of one, but possible.

[runic trail]

Its not an idea I've put much thought into it was just a... Hey, thematically this sort of fits

[tribal blade]

kush crafted double daggers, interesting

i wonder why

[vale pine]

think wfr playing sub did make a few players curios

[tribal blade]

hell yeah 😉

[void needle]

sims highest upgrade for me. Short term vs long term gains I suppose

[tribal blade]

i'm making my sub comeback atm

[tribal blade]

not for offhand

offhand is very low dps gains

he just prob got bracers and other off pieces at high ilvls

i guess the RWF boys do crafting thinking about the short term

not long term like us

[orchid sand]

actually i think it bugged during talent swapping, cuz i double checked and i still have 7cp on both trees

[vale pine]

double dagger is def. interessting

[void needle]

Vs max upgrade heroic track off pieces I have. It sims higher than bracers

[plush roost]

Is he playing ascension blessed weapon grip or something?

Or double lense?

[rapid forum]

It does surprise me, because they don't share daggers with anyone since only ever 1 rog max and loomithar has goated dagger for sub

Or am I missing Smth

[tulip gorge]

If the discord channel does too well we will get nerfed

[tribal blade]

it looked like ascension and lens

[plush roost]

Maybe turbo unlucky no dagger drop

[tulip gorge]

Blizzard balances around discord activity now

[tribal blade]

haha trueee

[tulip gorge]

Look at paladins

[vale pine]

maybe he got good gear in the other slots

[plush roost]

Ye

[tribal blade]

i went on a sub tear today

[vale pine]

its very individual

they have personal assistents to sim for them

haha

[plush roost]

Just needs the dmg now makes sense

[tulip gorge]

I can’t wait to get my raid trinkets

[tribal blade]

timed 15 streets, 14 hoa, db, ecodome and ara as sub today

[tulip gorge]

And be a nuclear bomb in m+

[plush roost]

I did 8 million going into intermission on araz today wheee

[rapid forum]

I always wondered that, but they do don't they?

[plush roost]

Sub goes crazy

[void needle]

He sat loomithar no?

[tulip gorge]

The extra cdr feels amazing

[void needle]

That's probably why

[tulip gorge]

I hope blizzard learns from it and makes it baseline in midnight

[rapid forum]

Who sat loomi? I only saw rog getting benched on sentinel

[void needle]

Was it only sentinel? I thought it was first 2

[rapid forum]

Idk

Benching rog on loomi would be giga grief because it drops bis sub dagger

But ig if they don't care because we down bad 🤷‍♂️

[vale pine]

i don't know exactly but i know top guids usually have a few people designated to sim and do math.
So they basically calculate whats the highest chance to drop, and sim what items would give the best immidiate upgrade and highest overall power level chance

[rapid forum]

I wish I had servants like that

[vale pine]

haha

[keen dome]

🙏

[rapid forum]

I like being optimized but I hate the process of optimizing

[vale pine]

i mean you don't optimize short term usually

icu

nicu

[void needle]

Can't have a single agi dagger drop hogging the lootpool for antenna

[rapid forum]

That's not how it works no?

Like dagger can drop regardless if raid has a dog in it or not

Or am I tripping

Dam that's a funny autocorrect

I think I leave that

[keen dome]

Yeah

Loot can and will drop regardless of group

No hunters? You bet your ass you are getting 4 crossbows

[vale pine]

i want my raid to have a cat in it

cats > dogs

[keen dome]

My raids always have a cat in it

[rapid forum]

Na we all dawwwgs

Dawg gang

[keen dome]

See. Always have a cat.

[runic trail]

Precious

[keen dome]

The purrfect pal

[rapid forum]

His lil goober legs

Cute

[runic trail]

Where did you get him?

[rapid forum]

I think taza drop

[keen dome]

Half correct! Taza'vesh pet battle back in SL

Before I quit I got him and he's been my best buddy ever since. I always have him out

[rapid forum]

Then I dropped similar pet in streets yesterday

[keen dome]

Ye, Gizmo drops from the mail boss

But Purrcival is a wild pet so he's unique, a Silver Purrkin

I love the Purrkins

You know the ethereals are cool 'cos they saved all their cats

[rapid forum]

Goated race

[fading pagoda]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[haughty mural]

Finally back

[clever delta]

Wow

[tribal blade]

i'm back!

[haughty mural]

Too bad we get harandir instead 🙂

[clever delta]

Share talents you use

I saw people use lot of variants

[haughty mural]

I guess rotten like the chad he is

[keen dome]

We'll get Ethereals in last titan

[tribal blade]

i was running rotten with 1 finality

[haughty mural]

I can’t cope anymore

[tribal blade]

but i swapped to rotten+inev+DD

[haughty mural]

It’s joever

[clever delta]

That's the PV build ?

[tribal blade]

yeah i dropped PV

i think taking PV is serious bait

because it's a useless talent

[haughty mural]

I think so too 🙂

[tribal blade]

the russian sub dude is running that build too

[vale pine]

which build?

[tribal blade]

maybe running PV would be better if you ran x2 finality and dropped rotten

[clever delta]

So what is the tree look like

[vale pine]

rotten ?

[haughty mural]

The rank 1 sub guy ?

[tribal blade]

running this in keys atm

[vale pine]

oh ye

[tribal blade]

yeah that guy

[vale pine]

this one looks interessting

rotten for guraanteed crit

[tribal blade]

yeah this one obviously has a lot of ST

[haughty mural]

So essentially season 2

[vale pine]

kinda yes

its basically between that

or the new builds

[haughty mural]

I run the same

[vale pine]

but i feel like new builds are better once you have high haste

[clever delta]

Cool

[tribal blade]

i think PV just makes swapping talents around very awkward

with where it's positioned

[vale pine]

*higher crit

[fading pagoda]

best video for learning m+ rotation? i cameback to subt from dragonflight and idk what to do xD

[keen dome]

100%

I'm the number one PV hater

[tribal blade]

if there was a better talent there the x2 finality build would most likely be what everyone plays

i would imagine

[keen dome]

Ye

I'm running..

[tribal blade]

or rotten with 1 finality

[keen dome]

(Same above, so just the final few)

Yeah, rotten with 1 finality is what I've been doing

[tribal blade]

yeah i was running this before

[keen dome]

But PV just does NOTHING

[tribal blade]

yeah it's very sad

sub has quite a few completely useless talents

[vale pine]

pv is just for point economy

so

[keen dome]

What was it Eleem said? It could be 500% and it'd still be shit?

[vale pine]

ye

pv is just design wise bad

but we did say this in DF already

[keen dome]

i'm gonna fix it

[haughty mural]

Rather have inev and dd than this

[tribal blade]

yeah they tried to rework it but failed

[vale pine]

the rework was still

keeping the baseline

"backstab does more damage"

[keen dome]

I've improved it tremendously

[vale pine]

goremaws

should be

[keen dome]

IN THE BIN

[vale pine]

sylvanas dagger effect

so we had a st/funnel talent

[keen dome]

I'm back onboard, yes, it should

[tribal blade]

yeah banshee's blight would be really cool

[keen dome]

It's ludicrous we don't have that as a talent yet

It'd be so good, it fits sub, it's a beloved cantrip

[tribal blade]

it has great synergy with our current talents

[vale pine]

its also shadow damane

[keen dome]

Put it where PV is

[vale pine]

soooo

[tribal blade]

and they would need to do 0 dev time to implement it haha

[keen dome]

Maybe in 12.0 they'll do it.

[vale pine]

13.0 for sure

14.0 we beleave

[keen dome]

We've been really good (as in behaviour wise) this expansion

We deserve it

[vale pine]

wow 2.0 100%

wow 2.1?

haha

[tribal blade]

not playing with DS in keys has been amazing

[vale pine]

did anyone try

[tribal blade]

playing sub is much sweatier rotation wise, but being able to freely target swap is nice

[vale pine]

shadowcraft less?

[keen dome]

I had a 32m burst on the final boss of Ara in a +10 yesterday due to prism

it owns so much

[tribal blade]

haha nah i'm afraid to try that

also the big power of sub in keys atm is doing monster ST

[vale pine]

it might be good in aoe heavy keys

[tribal blade]

people are really looking to take sub for the ST

[vale pine]

think mage can do that better? no?

[tribal blade]

overall is good too

yeah but mage can't fit in phys comp

[keen dome]

Ye

[tribal blade]

sub can 😉

[haughty mural]

Can’t convince me to drop shadowcraft atm

[tribal blade]

the meta has become raid buff stacking since last season

[keen dome]

Sub's AoE is pretty strong right now too (Not Ass, but)

We lack the prio, though. Which I think will be the drop off

[tribal blade]

all the keys i did earlier were brew+fury+sub+sub+rsham

[keen dome]

Double sub!!!!!

[tribal blade]

haha yeah

met another one, really good player and nice guy

he was in refined

[runic trail]

20℅ of the sub player base in one key

[tribal blade]

i think refined has some big name players

yeah dwilkz is in refined

[keen dome]

I've met some pretty nice people this seasons o far just pushing keys faster and higher than I normally would

[tribal blade]

last season dwilkz was literally letting anyone try his 21 resil keys

[keen dome]

And a specific Monk who I never want to meet again because he died to everything in a +11, it was incredible

[tribal blade]

"EVERYBODY GETS 1 TRY, THEN REFORM"

was funny

i never signed up to them

[keen dome]

lol, that owns

[void needle]

Whatchall think about this feely crafted nonsense?

[vale pine]

hmm

[tribal blade]

you're burning your kitchen down

[vale pine]

silent storm gaming

think the lower symbols timer

is rly good

for keys

[tribal blade]

yeah i think it's just mandatory for sub

[plush roost]

No speedshroud

May as well play assa

[vale pine]

i love speedshroud

my group rarely uses shroud

[tribal blade]

speedshroud is actually strong this season

like in streets

you ahve so much running around

[vale pine]

so i just use it between packs

[keen dome]

no speed shroud.

[plush roost]

Its the best raid buff

[tribal blade]

running double sub we were zooming between bosses lol

[keen dome]

M+ isn't fun if I can pop shroud at a funny moment and make people run off a platform

[plush roost]

Esp with all the running between bosses this raid

I just zoom the whole raid over to the next trash area

[tribal blade]

also i figured out you can pop shroud right before you take the portal to demensius on pull

and have the speed for everyone to get into his hitbox faster

[vale pine]

oh, thats actually a good idea

[tribal blade]

you don't drop shroud while flying over to him, it's funny

[keen dome]

oh, that's cool

[void needle]

This is m+ only

[keen dome]

I should start saladbar prog on heroic

But urgh

[tribal blade]

yeah i'll be flying over and my WA will be counting down "12,11,10" in /s haha

[haughty mural]

Pug progs

[tribal blade]

that's gonna be a nightmare to pug

[keen dome]

Pug progs work differently 'cos it's all about your personal prog and you just play until you get the mechanics down and shop around for a kill group haha

[tribal blade]

yeah

i think it's the first boss in the raid with a lot of moving parts

esp P3 will be really hard for pugs

[keen dome]

P3 is gonna be the hard part

The rest is extreemly whatever

And it's explictly the missiles in P3 that will be a problem where one person wipes the group

[tribal blade]

yeah everything about that phase

[keen dome]

The pineapples themselves are w/e you can conrol fo rthem via marks

[tribal blade]

and those missiles will def take a lot of progging

[keen dome]

But the missiles are personal responbility

I'm curious how Dimensius will be on Heroic pugging

[tight sparrow]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[keen dome]

'cos to even be pugging him you've killed Saladbar (any good group is only gonna invite you if you are 7/8H)

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[tight sparrow]

bro you gonna lose tone of cb in M+

if u do this

[void needle]

I just fw running double defensive with EphemBond and ExhilExecut, with silent storm over rotten. I hate pathing through PV, I hate pathing through imp shit, Swift death and premed are weird to play without.

[tight sparrow]

its sus to me using cb only in blades flag window in m+

maybe on ST yea sure

[keen dome]

You can push CB on a non-blade SecTec if you want and it'll be up for your blades window though

[winter ice]

yu running cb over tea in m+?

[tight sparrow]

i play double on use so yea

[void needle]

If you look at lorrgs a ton of top parses don't use it outside and still parse higher than a lot of the people who manage to fit a second one in without impeding blades, let alone all the people who fuck it up and ruined their blades window by doing it.

[limpid sage]

as long as you fit the same amount of cds and get the cb in blades you can go for it ye

[limpid sage]

raid also has significantly tighter timers than m+ though

[void needle]

Number 2 parse on sentinel used fucking tt

[limpid sage]

wat

[void needle]

Number 1 used it every 45, number 2 used tt, and number 3 used it every 90

Same on loomithar

Even on forgemaster top 5 parse uses tt. Mf's hate to see it but tt is competitive

[limpid sage]

fake

[void needle]

This carries over to heroic as well

Both mythic and heroic parses on every boss I've looked at so far have a tt in top 5 parse

[mental dune]

whats the benefit to tt?
like ik it scales better into higher target counts but why
also for plexus and loomithar that logic doesnt even apply

[void needle]

Oh, my bad this guy with a top 5 parse on heroic dimensius was talented cb. He just didn't fucking use it

[frail path]

I’ve pugged Nexus and Dimensius on heroic. Nexus was way, way harder due to missile wipes

[keen dome]

Makes sense. That's really good info though

[void needle]

cb matters less than sub rogue mains like to admit

[limpid sage]

sectec is capped at 5 targets

[keen dome]

How is Dimensius on heroic? Just do normal and manange poop?

[mighty citrus]

i just watched kushs forge kill. he sent cds directly at start, it lined up with adds on 1:30 as well. isnt delaying by first 30 sec then an issue (as represented in logs)?

[vale pine]

dimensius heroc pugging sounds terrible

[limpid sage]

so speccing cb becomes less valuable the higher target count you go

[void needle]

sqrt capped at 5, it still scales past just not well

[limpid sage]

yeye

not hard capped

only fury is given that treatment xd

[mental dune]

but then why for effectively full single target encounters?

[void needle]

Outlaw too

[frail path]

Lots of group jumping and being picky. Would probably take less time to jusst join a guild 😄

[limpid sage]

the higher your crit goes, the less value cb gets as well

[limpid sage]

leather fury

[keen dome]

Pug king, though. Extemely good job

I might just wait for next week to really push for AotC 'cos there's no loot I care about from either of them

[mental dune]

oh yeah that makes sense thats fair
is there a readily available breakpoint or is it jus a "sim yourself lmao" angle

[keen dome]

Get the 3% buff, let pug strats soldify

[tepid trellis]

even in full bis cb just sims better on single target, iirc its like a 1% difference

[void needle]

There's a fair amount of high parses with cb talented but unused. Have we ever considered lethality is the gold node, and cb is actually mid.

[tepid trellis]

but also 1% dmg is absolutely fuck all, if you consider the swings the spec itself has

[autumn flame]

Just crit in DMG amp

[tepid trellis]

tbh its more so both options are mid af

rogue talents 1o1

[mental dune]

hey i mean if i keep getting shafted by dawnbreaker drops ill be stuck with a huge crit ring going into loomithar
so it might actually be the tt swap

[tepid trellis]

doubt its making any difference

think my sub gear has like 35% crit

[void needle]

Vigor/tt definitely makes a flow difference. But I think lethality is actually very strong

[wild hornet]

If you hit sectec at 0 seconds remaining, do the Akali souls benefit from the danse stacks primarily with tfd?

[tepid trellis]

no

its dynamic

[mental dune]

its for vibes
placebo buff for talent swap makes me feel like im doing something

[formal lake]

what is this site called again it completely escaped my mind

[void needle]

Makes me feel like bear grylls, improvise adapt overcome type shit

[mental dune]

lorrgs.io

[formal lake]

cheers

[shy beacon]

which should be our off set tier piece?

[mental dune]

id think shoulders

theres a vers/mastery one from raid n the tier is big haste

[shy beacon]

this ones?

[void needle]

Sub doesn't run shoulders because 🤮 haste

[mental dune]

ye believe so

[shy beacon]

ait, cool

[void needle]

That's the one

[shy beacon]

chest gives haste as well, as tier piece, thats why I was wondering

[mental dune]

true but its more vers weighted

[quaint karma]

is there a custom apl somewhere that uses double on use with prism properly? the current APL spam uses prism on CD

[tepid trellis]

it should work, try changing the slots they are in

[quaint karma]

can try

[haughty mural]

I think those guys experiencing this:

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[autumn flame]

[wet idol]

Is there a way to see in logs to see how many times I had 4set second coup and how many times I actually used it ?

[tepid trellis]

if it never got shipped to the baseline apl can use this custom apl (not sure if eleem shipped it)

[void needle]

Well it's everytime you use coup, so if you don't see two casts back to back you didn't use it

They don't want you to know this, but this is more damage than tt. And only 1.5% lower than cb.

[vale pine]

can just copy/paste the custom apl from !sheet

[tepid trellis]

should prolly have it merged so 2x on-use sims "right"

[limpid sage]

I think there's a bug with TFD - it currently resets the "reset=stance" trigger after the original time has run out

[vale pine]

ye

some minor aoe optimizations are also in it

[torn storm]

can you run double on use with lily and prism?

[quaint karma]

just got back from teh store, gonna try swapping trinket slots now

[void needle]

This also fucks up your shadowcraft reset because of it iirc

[tepid trellis]

you prolly shouldnt

lily is great

[torn storm]

I have prism

just need a second trinket astronomically bad

[limpid sage]

haven't experienced this, but that sounds super weird

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[quaint karma]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7uSmhPZYyqmCBDUVh5V4fE/simc

Looks like its still doing it

[void needle]

I think shadowcraft is wasted anytime there's a stance change

[quaint karma]

i'll try to other apl

[tepid trellis]

grab the apl

it works

[limpid sage]

yeah had to read how it works again. So weird how that messes with it

[void needle]

Goofy spec for goofy people XD

[limpid sage]

but that would indeed make it not refund if done exactly at 8 secs

[mental dune]

ok maybe super degenerate tech topic that seems to come up in my rotation quite frequently
in a dance window
0 combo points, 2 shadow techniques stacks
ive been holding shadowstrike for like a few extra milliseconds in case i get an extra stack so i can build straight to 6 so i can spend while still fitting the same amount of gcds in the window

i cant be the only one doing this right?
idk where this habit came from but after mentioning it out loud it sounded silly
on average it lets me fit in a few extra spenders per encounter which is probably super marginal idk
but maybe the added cognitive load is technically a dps loss who knows

[quaint karma]

Works like a charm, thank you!

[void needle]

How much of a delay can you make without wasting globals? It's only what haste provides you, since 1.5 second globals only gets you 8 gcd in dance

[mighty citrus]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[tepid trellis]

1 sec is the most you can wste

[mental dune]

yeah its definitely less than 1 second collectively over the course of that window

[void needle]

Which I normally lag enough to cover anyways

[tepid trellis]

well yeah you arent 0.0000 perfect on every global

and 2x coup would waste 0,4 by itsellf

[void needle]

If I had a flawless internet connection and blizz servers weren't made of cum and newspaper, I still don't think I'd risk it trying to minmax shadow tech stacks

[tepid trellis]

haste doesent change our globals fwiw

we have a static 1sec gcd

just gated by energy

[void needle]

True I forgot about that, rogues do just be doin shit

Breaking every rule in the book

[tepid trellis]

just energy classes being special needs

[mental dune]

barring some more niche situations spell queueing works well enough to where i can afford to use reaction for 1 gcd
at least it seems like after looking at logs im not missing anything
but also even if i dont know the math on it its probably true that even like 3-4 extra buffed evis's would be negligible gain id imagine?