subtlety

[hidden jasper]

Have to keep in mind that it's a QOL and one less keybind for your average player

[shadow lance]

Still OS that stupid encounter

[void needle]

let average players play sin XD

[shadow lance]

We could just disable the autouse and macro

I mean, just creat a node

[void needle]

Easy to start, but still has a lot of room for optimization

[shadow lance]

Like the Shadow Crash going at target or at cursor

[hidden jasper]

True, that would be nice

[void needle]

Blizz hates sub rogues, it would just end up bugging something essential to our class

[shadow lance]

It's not only sub

Sin use it

Outlaw used it in DF

[void needle]

It would only be bugged for sub

[shadow lance]

Prolly

[void needle]

Blizz kind of looks at sin sometimes

[shadow lance]

They fixed rotten

[void needle]

It might be bugged for outlaw too

[fallow nimbus]

It should have been a choice node

[hidden jasper]

Tea ST build in Vault went hard

Good times

[void needle]

But fucked up finality right?

[shadow lance]

I don't play finality

So idk what happened

[dusk stone]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[shadow lance]

Terros goes bruuuuuh

[fallow nimbus]

What happened to finality?

[shadow lance]

Last time I played finality, it was a leg at SL

[void needle]

Finality doesn't work with coup, but finality overworks with bp. The major reason you never take it as a single target talent

[tepid trellis]

that was borked last tier as well

[void needle]

replicating shadows also doesn't work with finality

[shadow lance]

Okay, so you take the talent for your BP and half of your evis

[tepid trellis]

and its never worked with RS since DF

[shadow lance]

I find that a bit stupid

That the talent buff the primary id of the spells but no the subsequent

[tepid trellis]

the only thing i really care about getting fixed tbh is coup refunding shadowcraft on all hits

that shit absolutely blows

[void needle]

I take finality in m+ still, because that bp bug is actually super strong

[warm marlin]

it does blow but i feel like it mitigates the tier set escalating overcap thing a bit

[void needle]

But It's suck a bad st/cleave talent because of it

[warm marlin]

you refund on a lot of coups that you wouldn't have otherwise

[alpine wraith]

every day i think some people break some hardware because of it

[shadow lance]

Yeah, you told me few days ago

Nearly throw my mouse through the windows

Happened 3 times in a row

[hazy breach]

The 2p having a slight delay throws me off too

But im a boomer so

[tepid trellis]

that havent caught me yet

[void needle]

I think it's funny that the main reason you would use deathstalker is because it buffs your shadow damage. Except for the part where it doesn't

[tepid trellis]

but the 0.1 sec before gcd open coup refund, until i changed my wa's

[alpine wraith]

doing dimensius with 30 people

[tepid trellis]

was making me mad

[alpine wraith]

was making me go rabig on dances sometimes

so much imput lag

[shadow lance]

You switch to 0.1?

The alert

[void needle]

The essential dance window where squeezing in every possible global is important, but your refunds being bitches and making me ss again instead of spending.

[shadow lance]

I want to fix that too

[alpine wraith]

damn i really gained almost 1 m dps eh https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hYfbcCZyDd9drgdbXzPeVo https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mUEHekkp8cfWYTHbdKQ1bY

[void needle]

Is that your 4p and prism?

[alpine wraith]

yea

now i need to farm more m+

to get those items to 704

[shadow lance]

Already full 704

[void needle]

Yeah, they're really walling the bulk of our dps behind that this season

[shadow lance]

I can transform runed into gilded

[void needle]

4p itself is nearly 30% more damage

[shadow lance]

Pogger

[alpine wraith]

dont do it tho

because of turbo season

so you can snap all the lower crests to higher

[shadow lance]

Ofc I won't

It's just that I'm already done with runed

[tepid trellis]

no

[alpine wraith]

that is sweet i have been quite unlucky on m+

[shadow lance]

I finish 80+ keys week 1 tbh

Needed to remember how to play sub

[shadow lance]

Would you tell how you fixed that pls? I would really appreciate

[tepid trellis]

it has nothing to do with that wa

[sand flax]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[tepid trellis]

just had to change the way i see ShT tracks so it kinda tells me when it can happen

[shadow lance]

I do it too

Tracking sht

I maybe should put in color when I'm at 6 stacks

Yeah, I should do that, nothing 1-4 orange 5-6, green 7+

[wooden kernel]

you have to do camp to get 2nd spark? i already got one from doing weekly quests

[left ledge]

well what you want to detect is when sht is going to proc after you press coup

sht isnt a completely "random" proc

it is a 50% proc on the third hit, and a 100% on the fourth hit

and during symbols

50% on second, 100% on third

so if you hit coup and your sht is on the first hit

you probably wont encounter the late refund

[tepid trellis]

inb4 skyfury proc

[left ledge]

i mean yeah but

[tepid trellis]

[left ledge]

at that point fuck it

its kinda wild how sht tracking has changed over the years honestly

was such an active thing

[shadow lance]

I remeber tracking it a sl

[brisk raptor]

What applies find weakness to mobs now? Black powder?

[shadow lance]

Barely understanding how it works

[left ledge]

strike and if you crit with backstab behind or crit with storm with the talent

finishers dont apply fw

[shadow lance]

And it was just a chance to get another cp back in days

[left ledge]

yes you got an extra combo point on 3/4

was very punishing to ignore it

[brisk raptor]

Hmm so is it just less important to make sure FW gets applied?

[left ledge]

it is VERY important to make sure FW is applied

you want FW applied before you do anything

[shadow lance]

30% damages amp

[brisk raptor]

So if you’re going into a pack what would you do to make sure that’s happening?

[shadow lance]

Ofc it's important

[left ledge]

if you're taking rotten

you storm after sod

and it does the job for you

if you're not taking rotten, just storm a couple times

[brisk raptor]

Most guides I’ve seen are not taking rotten though, that’s why I’m confused

Ahh ok

[left ledge]

in aoe it only really matters you have it on like 4 targets

[brisk raptor]

So just spreading ruptures using fok before sending CDs I guess?

[left ledge]

4+

yeah

non worry in aoe

[brisk raptor]

Cool thanks 👍

[shadow lance]

Just spam Storm / rupture while pack’ is gathered

[left ledge]

you're going to be storming in dance as well so

you'll def apply it to most enemies

with or without rotten

[void needle]

Does the rotten no longer consume both attacks with shuriken storm?

[left ledge]

correct

bug was fixed

[brisk raptor]

Is that the storm between coup you’re talking about?

[left ledge]

no

[brisk raptor]

Or do people take shuriken storm now?

[left ledge]

you storm on 4+

in dance

[brisk raptor]

Oh

[left ledge]

storm is baseline

[shadow lance]

Wait, what?

[left ledge]

you would only strike to proc your coup/ub

[brisk raptor]

I thought you always used shadowstrike inside dance

[left ledge]

definitely not in aoe

[shadow lance]

Pretty sure You do

[left ledge]

you'll be eating up a lot of combo points using strike in aoe

our builders are not strong

[tepid trellis]

you at most storm once

per dance

[left ledge]

in cds you strike for sure

[tepid trellis]

in AoE

[shadow lance]

Check wowhead

Cuz 100% sure u sstrike in aoe

And you don't even storm with rotten 100% of the time

[void needle]

I think it's still 6-7 targets you start storming in dance

[misty condor]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

without UB ready there is actually no reason to strike in aoe, its just less damage and combo points

maybe yeah 6+

whatever fills your combo points

[tepid trellis]

you do not storm in dance, unless you wanna apply FW with rotten, and even then the sim doesent like doing that

[left ledge]

that seems really weird what

why would you strike over storm without UB

[tepid trellis]

strike hurts, and it procs UB

storm doesent hurt and doesent proc UB

[shadow lance]

U wanna proc UB the more you can for 4 set

[left ledge]

well you have moments where you cant proc UB right

[tepid trellis]

if you could actually track the random reset

yes

[left ledge]

is that really worth losing combo points

[tepid trellis]

but you cannot

with ShT during symbols

[shadow lance]

It give 6 cp

[tepid trellis]

you pretty much just go strike-fin-strike-fin-strike-fin

[shadow lance]

Rarely 5

[void needle]

UB is limited, after you proc 2 in dance, you won't proc another for the timer. You can storm for more damage and guaranteed cp after 6 targets

[tepid trellis]

its is not limited

it has a random reset

[left ledge]

thousand cuts can randomly reset it

[tepid trellis]

which you cannot track

cuz funny

[left ledge]

guess ill compare next time i do key

[void needle]

yuck

[left ledge]

but i mean i strike to consume UB that i know is there

i kinda pretend thousand cuts doesnt exist

[hazy breach]

Well you usually sectech before

[left ledge]

yeah ofc, although a lot of the times from pack to pack you end up having coup ready

[void needle]

Yes, and sectech gives you those two "resets" that you can track

[hazy breach]

And you can proc the resets during disorienting strikes

[tepid trellis]

also strike actually does decent dmg

Alot more than storm

[left ledge]

hmmm

is that worth losing 1-2 extra bps

[hazy breach]

If you proc 2p with strike

It does more damage than BP

On 8 targets

[alpine wraith]

yes unseens can crit for 4mx2

and also they nimble

[left ledge]

this is my bp from a key earlier

this is unseen

so yeah ig on average

ub hits pretty hard

but im surprised to hear its worth striking when your only chance at UB is thousand cuts reset

that seems weird to me ig idk

[alpine wraith]

just gambling

[left ledge]

but also most of the pulls im doing are above 8 targets

[hazy breach]

You can check your storm damage VS your strike damage

[left ledge]

oh yeah no doubt strike is way better

strike

storm

[tribal blade]

damn someone just paid me 100k for the cursed stone idol

nice

[void needle]

It does, but it fails to scale past 7. Even at 7 it does a fair amount more damage like 60% more. But I'm convinced at large target counts storm is better since it sqrt scales past 8.

[valid yoke]

https://imgur.com/SNjSOmW

brb gonna suck my RL off

[void needle]

With nimbl*

[left ledge]

i mean storm does piss damage

but i am NOT confident in my proc chances

i have a history of not proccing

[tepid trellis]

still ptsd from sophic

[void needle]

Maybe play flickerstrike?

[left ledge]

11% over a whole night

[tepid trellis]

[left ledge]

is demonic

[void needle]

Does anyone have experience with that over thousand cuts

[left ledge]

i go sim

23%

flicker is terrible

you have to take aoe damage with feint active

[void needle]

It gives you more controllable resets on ub

[left ledge]

yes but what if you're fighting something that doesnt aoe

you just dont proc

what if your feint isnt up when you do get hit by that aoe

[void needle]

In a dungeon, that shits everywhere. But there are the few exceptions where there is none

Feint 100% uptime

[hazy breach]

Also 10% attack speed

[left ledge]

honestly idk i mean you have UB up a LOT in dance, so i am striking quite a bit in dance

[hazy breach]

Is good

[left ledge]

but i def dont depend on thousand cuts procs

the second i dont see UB proc ready

i storm

and fish for procs outside of dance

on low target count

[void needle]

That is true

The random nature of thousand cuts resets that I can't track just has me fucked up though

[left ledge]

i guess if the robot say strike always then strike always though

i sure not fkin doing that

[void needle]

Don't let a clanker tell you what to do

[tepid trellis]

sometimes you get forced out of direct melee range

[void needle]

XD

[tepid trellis]

then we storm

profit

[left ledge]

yeah tbf

that is a priory

we pull like 6 paladins

[tepid trellis]

i bursted 52mil dps

on the paladin pull

[void needle]

I didn't think about that actually

[tepid trellis]

[left ledge]

oh yeah my dmg fkin skyrocketed

[hazy breach]

I hit 60 on a big momma pull

18 stacks go hard

[tepid trellis]

havent done trash into bigmomma

[void needle]

Good point, I make the bad assumption that I'll always be auto'ing if I'm attacking something

[tepid trellis]

but i wanna

[left ledge]

i always end up having trash into big momma

and triple dps of next person

[tepid trellis]

we are mostlikely doing a forweaver nm split for my rogue tmrw

[left ledge]

for trinky?

[tepid trellis]

2x on-use in +10s go hard

[left ledge]

i want trink so bad dude

[void needle]

Idk, I think sin does that pull exceptionally too

[alpine wraith]

yea even pvp trink goes hard

[left ledge]

i never get to stack my prism

[alpine wraith]

imagine forge

[left ledge]

because its my only on use

[hazy breach]

Sure, but not that big

[left ledge]

got this combo

[solemn lance]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brisk raptor]

How many of yall are running shuriken tornado? I don’t see much about it in the guides

[left ledge]

crystal nice and all but forge will let me see that juicy 18

i run it when im bored

its a pretty mid button

[void needle]

Lmao, that's a debate still

[hazy breach]

Most people hate it

Not like numerically

Just how it feels to play

[void needle]

I think tt/tornado will sim better on a dungeon slice. But it's something in the sub rogue mindset that makes 90% of them hate that button

[left ledge]

i run this although sometimes i swap rotten for double finality

[hazy breach]

But idk nado feels really fucking good when you go sectech > coup > coup > bp

[left ledge]

i dont run tfd because my groups perma chain pull

so i literally can never use it

[void needle]

Anytime it could be technically meta, or better in any scenario people cry about tornado

[hazy breach]

Well its still gonna be worth more

[left ledge]

is it

[hazy breach]

Than imp sht

[left ledge]

i mean in that priory i got like 2 stealths off

[hazy breach]

Which does absolutely nothing

Yes

[left ledge]

and not even for 5 sec

yeah i mean i guess i can run it

just w/e though when i can barely use it

[hazy breach]

But like, youll be getting it after every boss

Even in a priory

At the worst, but probably more times

[left ledge]

yeah those are the two stealths i got

i just insta broke after first boss though

to spread ruptures

i could honestly even run nado

instead of sht

[hazy breach]

Yes

imp sht complete dogshit

[left ledge]

it was just kind of a point i had there for no reason

[hazy breach]

Only reason its picked is because you need it for PE, and PE is like 2x most talents so its fine

[void needle]

With tornado though, do I drop PE for TFD

[left ledge]

damn is PE really that good

[void needle]

I don't know about that, I think you lose tfd to take tornado

[left ledge]

i kinda just ignored it because i have a lot of crit from assa gearing

[hazy breach]

Its like a 5%er ye

[left ledge]

i should sim my talents

[void needle]

Lmao I tried that shit earlier, took me 30 mins a sim

[hazy breach]

The real experimental shit is something like this

[left ledge]

im just simming every possible aoe set up

[left ledge]

i want a brew build so bad

ngl

[void needle]

wtf? XD

haha

[hazy breach]

Can drop shadowcraft for db

[left ledge]

yea WITHOUT dropping shadowcraft though

i like shadowcraft too much

[hazy breach]

Not having premed griefs singletarget though

[void needle]

Is that even comparable?

[hazy breach]

And 30s symbols is big oof

[left ledge]

yeah

[hazy breach]

In aoe it sims a bit better yes

[left ledge]

PE over nado with 2x fin

seems to be my highest

anything im missing

[chrome palm]

Tfd

[left ledge]

actually im not running that shit

no RS

im too lazy to tab target

i will rupture the same target

[void needle]

This is what I have but tornado over veiltouched

[hazy breach]

Tfd sims reasonably close right, but its only getting 1 use in the sim

Instead of the 7 it should be getting

[left ledge]

oh really

[hazy breach]

Because it drops combat 7 times

So ye its comparing literally 4 seconds on pull to the others

And its close

[void needle]

4 seconds is kind of a lot every distinct pull in M+

[radiant raptor]

guys do we craft crit mast dagger?

[void needle]

Sim it

[hazy breach]

Besides you can vanish and stand afk outside combat for a bit in the cuckchair before your burst even if you constantly chain

[void needle]

I went vers mast though

[left ledge]

yeah i think what im gonna do

is run

or swap nado for tfd

[chrome palm]

Finality for tfd?

[radiant raptor]

reasonable

[left ledge]

i can try seeing finality for TFD

[chrome palm]

I honestly just like tr for those 20+ pulls

[gaunt bluff]

dude i cannot tell if im that bad at sub or dh is just crazy this season?

this was 15 ara kara

[void needle]

That's an extra 15% on EVERY one of your shadowed bp's though

[left ledge]

dh is VERY good in ara kara

[gaunt bluff]

he shat on me boss dmg and every pull he was 3-4 mil ahead

[tepid trellis]

DH is very good in arakara

[left ledge]

its prob their best dungeon

[gaunt bluff]

i see

[left ledge]

its like sub in streets

[chrome palm]

Sub might be a little more buff dependent to reach its potential and you are not getting buffed here

[left ledge]

sub OMEGA blasts in streets

[hazy breach]

Dawnbreaker

[gaunt bluff]

gonna hopefully do this flood with the same comp

and see the outcome

[void needle]

Dude the pulls are so short, I'm sure you could hit 10-15m overall on streets

[hazy breach]

But ye idk about the best talents, not playing rotten feels bad but sim doesnt like it, nado feels kinda shit but sim loves it

[gaunt bluff]

for my char rotten and nado sim within like 50-100k on dslice

[void needle]

I think that experimental build slaps though, instead of the rotten you just run silent storm

[gaunt bluff]

is it even that big of a deal?

u can surely play whatever feels better

[void needle]

not running SD and premed has to suck though

[hazy breach]

Yes silent storm is a better version of rotten, since its not competing with the same good talents down at the bottom

Unfortunately the tree is cursed so you have to grief your pathing for it

[void needle]

Yeah, losing premed is painful

[hazy breach]

Like Secret technique being where it is

Screws silent storm

Because you need to pick fade to nothing

[void needle]

Idk I was talking about it with gloom yesterday, but I actually fw exhilirating execution over ephemeral bond in keys

[hazy breach]

Ye you should absolutely play exhil in keys

[void needle]

Terrifying pace is dogshit though

[hazy breach]

Yes, but its not a permanent 50% slow that cant be toggled off

[left ledge]

within 1% with the sim basically pretending TFD isnt real

not bad tbh

[void needle]

Oh, yeah thats why I reference taking terrifying pace for the speed boost instead of the slow talent

[left ledge]

but 1x fin def seems way worse

[alpine wraith]

no shaman buff you are cooked

[hazy breach]

The middle section of the sub tree has a bunch of talents you must always pick, and then theres a bunch of shitter talents that doesnt really matter, except PE and TFD(on aoe)

Those are actually good

[alpine wraith]

i always wonder who did the initual design of our talent tree

because it is the original sin

afterwards they have tried to move things and other things

but

it was always krangled as F

[hazy breach]

Its really weird because we have a bunch of talents that do pretty much the same thing with barrely any different flavour:
Rotten + Silent storm
Master of Shadows + Shadow Focus
Old the first dance + premed
Darkbrew + Veiltouched + Deeper daggers

Could say gloomblade and lingering shadows are similar too, and imp sht is pretty similar to SF and MoS but not quite the same

And obviously PE + ⚠️

[alpine wraith]

they just saw shadow focus and someone had a problem with it

from 25 to 20 to 15 to 10 to 5

[plush roost]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[alpine wraith]

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO BEAT YOU OLD MAN

[plush roost]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[hazy breach]

Wasnt it 100% back in the olden days

[alpine wraith]

nah

[hazy breach]

Or atleast 75%

[alpine wraith]

in legion it was 25

in WoD you picked the other but i dont remember which ones it was with

[hazy breach]

Ye early mop its 100%

Nerfed to 75% later

[alpine wraith]

damn true

[void needle]

I macro sectech onto blades, and have a separate macro with cb/sectech. So I cast sectech first global in blades, and then use the separate macro for the second cast. This works right? I'm not an idiot for doing this?

[hazy breach]

Yes that works

[void needle]

I've been doing this since s1, and I see everywhere "DON'T MACRO CB/SECTECH". But I'm like this is fine?

[hazy breach]

Well dont macro it and forget about it

Like with tea+dance or non-prism trinket+blades etc

Thats what most people are asking for

[void needle]

Maybe it actually isn't great once I get 4p. The cdr might cause me to use it with a second dance outside of cd's if I press that macro and not be ready for cd window again

I'm gonna start hitting my blades/sectech macro just in case on every sectech I don't want cb. Still good macros imo since it removes cb from hotbars, good consolidation

[alpine wraith]

we did it boys

no one with my shit gear kills bosses

[stiff spear]

Sub is so much fun rn I never want to play without double coup again

[alpine wraith]

also as always my enchants are pro at dodging my dance windows ijn cds

i swear

[void needle]

There's only 4 parses XD. No one plays sub

[hazy breach]

4 people with 702-704

But ye

[alpine wraith]

nah there are like 100 parses

wait actually only 44

nvm

da fuq

[void needle]

Which ilvl range has the most parses?

Just curious

[alpine wraith]

likely 698-702

[void needle]

and which boss is this?

[alpine wraith]

plexus

[void needle]

Mythic?

[alpine wraith]

yea got rank 6 but not for long if people public logged

should have been private i think

[brisk raptor]

is the <30 sec on flag that you want to not send dance to make sure you have 2 charges?

[void needle]

Yes, make sure you will have a second dance charge with cd's

[alpine wraith]

kinda

[brisk raptor]

i find myself having coup up outside dance windows quite a lot. i guess i just send them unless cds are almost up?

[alpine wraith]

yea iirc for me i bank some sht to be able to use both but the diff is minimal to use one and send the other with what you have

if no dance or cds are near

[dusk stone]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[brisk raptor]

i'm having such a hard time using backstab to consume premed, i just wanna press shadowstrike so bad for some reason

even with the macro. been so long since i've played sub lol

[void needle]

You can use ss to consume premed?

[mental dune]

idk if this works for everyone but i thik of popping dance like a combo
since symbols and dance are off gcd i just focusing on pressing all my binds in one motion
so for me its V+E+2

rather than individual spells

[gaunt bluff]

yeah flood looks better altho it bricked on the pre last pack

was in a 15

🥹

[gaunt bluff]

also is this up to date?

i need to change my raid setup bruh

[void needle]

Yeah, using cb only on your second sectech is technically more damagte

[gaunt bluff]

i mean not sending any outside of blades more tbh

[void needle]

Yeah, you risk not having it. blades is cast every 90 seconds and the cd of cb is 45. If you try to use it on an intermediate dance, you probably have to delay to use it with blades

[gaunt bluff]

hmm i see

[void needle]

If you set a timer for 45 seconds after your blades second sectech and used it right on cd, you could make it work

[gaunt bluff]

well that means using it if i know my cds are gonna be delayed

should be fine

like on first boss mythic

[void needle]

I don't think cd's are delayed

[gaunt bluff]

i think i remember theres a phase where i was running and cds were up for maybe 5 seconds or so

before i got to the boss

[void needle]

phase is at about a minute, cd's are 1:30. I think you're usually fine to blast cd's on cd for that boss

[gaunt bluff]

ye ofc

i mean lowkey i just looked at lorrgs saw most do cds after cds and i do the same 😎

[void needle]

There is forced downtime, but it shouldn't interfere with cd timing

[mental dune]

does this season feel easier for any of yall in m+? besides streets i dont feel like any QOL changes were made the way it was for season 1 --> 2
but its felt like everyone has been pushing up key levels so much more quickly

[void needle]

Gear ratio from last season to this season is very low compared to 1 to 2, especially with built in power from cloak and belt. Familiar dungeons, strong tier across the board. Pretty easy season to rush to higher levels

[dusk stone]

any clue how to make this work

#showtooltip Unyielding Netherprism
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Shadow Blades
/use Tempered Potion
/castsequence reset=10 null, /use Unyielding Netherprism

[gaunt bluff]

keys definitely feel easier

i mean last season u had to start with unnerfed flood and other hard dungeons

[mental dune]

i mean this time around streets has an atrocious time %
but its getting hard nerfed

it probably caps out around the same level right?
just faster to ramp up to the really high keys

[gaunt bluff]

also im not even sure if im right but it feels to me like classes overall increased in power

[void needle]

Meadery was a bad low gear dungeon, floodgate was insane, priory was hard, mechagon was relatively hard initially. Dungeons are significantly easier this tier

[mental dune]

it was a really weird feeling for sure when the same % of the playerbase was 3k+ in season 1 as like ~3400 in season 2
n considering the dungeon pool itll be even more inflated
granted i guess the resil system had some part to do in that

[tribal blade]

14 ecodome with a tank who had no idea what his route was

sending some cds into random single pulls

[mental dune]

how was that key besides the tank being lost?
i have a 14 dome in my bags
kinda spooked to send it

[tribal blade]

it's not that bad

timer was kinda tight on ours because the tank's pulls were really weird

[gaunt bluff]

eco is legit free

[void needle]

Get rid of the "/use trinket" portion and try just using 13/14 depending on the trinket slot

[tribal blade]

if i could time a 14 eco with a tank who they said just bought a new account yesterday

[gaunt bluff]

i think u can full wipe like 2-3 times and still time a 14 with a good route 💀

[tribal blade]

you can time it

tank had like 1400 IO haha

[fossil forge]

Opinion on pairing prism with another on use?

[mental dune]

how the hell did they get into a 14 then? their key?

[hazy breach]

Unless its forge i dont think its worth

But

[void needle]

You can't have a /use in the middle of of a cast sequence I think

[warm marlin]

fb assa dmg profile looking suspiciously like sub

[tribal blade]

i think it was the dk's key

he was last season title

[fossil forge]

prism+antenna lowkey chill

Momma pull flood

[tribal blade]

but i kinda shit all over him

looks like frost does like no dmg outside of cds

1 pull he did 2 mil

[gaunt bluff]

do u prestack prism once u have it or what do u do in m+?

does it keep stacks on dummy before inputting key

[tribal blade]

prism always

as sub

[fossil forge]

It resets when key stars

[tribal blade]

oh right

[fossil forge]

So ur first pull without trinket

[tribal blade]

yeah can't prestack

well you can do 1st pull with trinket

[gaunt bluff]

yeah but that class has cds 24/7 basically

[mental dune]

honestly i havent simmed it or tried it out but forge + prism sounds really fun

[tribal blade]

maybe 1-2 stacks depending on how long the gather takes

[gaunt bluff]

he decides not to send

[fossil forge]

Not worth pressing

8 or 18

[void needle]

forge/prism is good in m+

Gives you an on use for first pull, third pull, etc. Lets you build good stacks for every prism use in between

[hazy breach]

I think theres too much time inbetwen cds where you wouldnt want to be without the 8k passive agi from something like antenna

[mental dune]

never getting the trinket because other people have prio over me but im happy with my prism regardless
ill just yoink it from turbo boost if i have nothing else

[winter ice]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Since most of the power of forge+prism is being able to have a trinket on pull, thats kinda diminished a lot by the key being like 30 min long

[gaunt bluff]

man prism this week didnt drop for me to even roll on it at all 😭

[hazy breach]

Compared to a 6 min sim

[gaunt bluff]

bad rng

[lime field]

Does the Cold Blood Secret Tech macro not work for anyone else?

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[mental dune]

btw do we know if hero talents are planned to be an evergreen system?
im kinda growing attached to my coup
also 1 hr tricks and nimble flurry letting me keep pretty much all my talents the same from single target to aoe

[void needle]

From what I heard midnight will add new rows to the existing hero talents?

[hazy breach]

Theyve confirmed its not going away in midnight

[gaunt bluff]

they need to make the 1 hour tricks baseline

[mental dune]

hell yeah
also hoping the trickster set gets baked into talents
the cdr feels so nice
also makes me feel mildly less like a wet noodle in between big cd pulls

[gaunt bluff]

i wont be able to play without it once trickster isnt meta

[white tapir]

do u need a ton of vers to play sub rogue?

[hazy breach]

No

Just dont get haste

And its fine

[muted basalt]

anyone have aq danse tracker WA

[void needle]

But nothing in WoW is evergreen, It'll go away at some point, I just hope they learn enough from the qol that some of these talents give us to make the next system better

[hazy breach]

No because its not something you need to track

[mental dune]

i feel like almost no spec that likes vers NEEDS vers to exist
besides maybe brewmaster
might be missing something tho

[hazy breach]

Assuming you actually mean danse (as in danse macabre) and not Shadow dance

[white tapir]

my damage in keys feel really low compared to assasination

[muted basalt]

that is waht I meant

[mental dune]

assassin just has a better profile generally for m+

funnel is very highly valued

[muted basalt]

I just remember tracking it last expac and it helped my dmg for sec tec

i just came back to the game

i must be thinking too hard about it lol

[void needle]

Funnel isn't overall damage though. AOE sub rogue probably beats sin overall with hybrid or cleave talents

[hazy breach]

Its no longer something we care about tracking

[muted basalt]

gotcha, thanks for that

[gaunt bluff]

im still unsure if on high keys i should be only eviscerating the big target mob cus like everyone i ask says a diff thing

some people say black powder no matter what others prio evisc

[hazy breach]

Well BP does more damage to all the other targets

Evis does more damage to the main target

[void needle]

If you want damage numbers, use bp over 4 targets. If you want to prio you definitely can use evis

[brisk raptor]

i feel like i don't use black powder much because i constantly have ST and coup to press

[alpine wraith]

usually the lesser mobs are more dangerous than the big one

ergo in HoA the gazillion casters

[void needle]

You aren't spending enough, you should have a lot of in between bp and evis time even with coup procs.

Cramming spenders into dance windows is what gives all our damage

[gaunt bluff]

Yee but i saw ppl mention that bp dmg is so high eviscerate isnt worth it

tbh ill prob just stick to eviscerating mobs like ara kara big spiders in the first area

[mental dune]

na
its just good to use at lower target counts than last season

so its better
but not THAT good

[hazy breach]

BP does like ~70% of the damage eviscerate does on the main target

[void needle]

I base it off of group comp/dungeon. If there is a prio mob and I don't have an arcane mage beside me I'll probably evis. If there's a prio mob and a lot of ads and I'm playing with boomy/unholy dk I'll probably bp

[hazy breach]

But sub has decent prio anyway because of coup and strikes

[void needle]

Yeah, if you never use evis once and you look at your damage details, nimble flurry is still a massive number

The prio is there

[mental dune]

lets be honest what group doesnt have huge prio spec at this point
i feel like its almost impossible not stumbling into an arcane in your group even by accident

[gaunt bluff]

Yeah it makes sense

[void needle]

It happens, and if you want to or notice lacking YOU can be that prio damage. Sub damage profile and choices are very cool (at least to me) this season

[gaunt bluff]

in fact in the ara kara i did prio mob died way too fast most of the time and i was stuck bping the rest of the 30% spiders forever

even tho i started only bping early

[hazy breach]

Yep

[wheat elk]

question, do you shuriken for fw buff and then ss for unseen blades and the cou?

shurkien once*

[mental dune]

i started playing rogue last season n im pretty sure i almost exclusively switched to sub because 1. i hated deathstalker that much
and 2. every key i joined had an arcane n the prio target would die so fast it made popping cds feel so much less satisfying

[gaunt bluff]

tbh if outlaw was uncapped id prob still play it over sub

its my first season as sub but its very fun so far

[void needle]

outlaw would be so op uncapped

[gaunt bluff]

its like there is so much minmax in this class i feel like anytime i look back at my log i can notice an area to improve

[void needle]

That's the game :). I love this spec so much, wouldn't play sin for the world

[gaunt bluff]

I just cant play sin after starting with sub tbh

[void needle]

Except when my raid lead tells me I'm trolling and to swap sin for a raid fight 🙁

[gaunt bluff]

especially cus im playing with dmg numbers off

its like nothing feels satisfying on it

[brisk raptor]

anyone know if this damage breakdown looks somewhat normal for a 10 streets?

[gaunt bluff]

i put some bleeds i look details 20 mil dmg from nothing

no sectec satisfaction

[void needle]

My bp looks a little higher, but that could depend on the pulls your tank is making. It is better dam even on 3 targets if they have find weakness applied

[gaunt bluff]

• tracking huge packs bleeds gets tiring af

too many dots

[lucid lily]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[mental dune]

im really trying to learn outlaw but i just cannot get used to just having the priority down and just turning brain completely off n mashing buttons
feel like if im paying too much attention i play way too slowly for the spec

[void needle]

Higher in M+ when prio mobs start to have billions of health, sin usually swaps to a pure poison build and your dots aren't as impactful. It's all about massive envenoms that splatter the rest of the pull

[gaunt bluff]

no cap the best training for that is ?? Kyveza

makes u learn the rotation while not thinking or looking at ur buttons at all

cus u have to do all the mechanics

[void needle]

Good for learning to adapt your cd timings on sub too

[mental dune]

doesnt having to restealth for subterfuge reset boss?

[gaunt bluff]

not always

happens like once in 30 vanishes i guess

but it did reset it for me at 10%

[void needle]

I don't think kyveza usually resets on vanish

^ damn I guess it does happen sometimes. 10% is ROUGH

[mental dune]

yeah i really needed some other way to practice
theres some weird input lag on the dorn dummies that makes me feel like im dragging my feet through mud

[gaunt bluff]

I mean the point of improving there would be trying to get a decent dps going while doing the mechanics and maybe even finishing the kill

doesnt matter if u reset it sometimes

also makes u learn to use ur defensives more cus her melees fkin hurt (atleast before we had hero gear)

[mental dune]

yeah just as long as it didnt happen every time
because at that point you just cant play the game

[void needle]

Fs, I just know that it would piss me off lmao

Anyone else do Kyveza first week and get fucked out of rewards?

[gaunt bluff]

wdym?

[junior prawn]

Gamers how do i fix sec tec cb macro after playin assass fatebound wit cb talent

[gaunt bluff]

relog

[void needle]

I haven't touched her since. But I ran it in 665 gear. The first week when warriors were spell reflect oneshotting her, they disabled achievements entirely for her.

[junior prawn]

https://tenor.com/view/american-psycho-willem-dafoe-duh-duhh-obviously-gif-16794513

[gaunt bluff]

oh yeah but they only rolled back the rewards for those warriors

I did it on outlaw still have mine

[void needle]

Tbf, It's a stupid bug, been here since s1.

[void needle]

I did it on Thursday, after the warriors were doing their stupid shit. I didn't read any of the news posts, and got pissed off after I completed it and got nothing

[short radish]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[zealous hedge]

W rogue on liquid bros working rn

[teal dock]

Hello rogues, are we using Shiruken within Shadow dance?

[void needle]

If you scroll up a bit, we had quite a discussion on it today. But short answer no for the most part

[hazy breach]

Once to prevent you from wasting an unseen blade proc during 4p

But besides that usually no

[pure jay]

can anyone recommend what setting to sim mythic araz on? Hectic add cleave? patchwerk?

[lucid jackal]

st patchwork lol

[graceful terrace]

should i be using the council talents for Soul hunters or just cleave

[steel sierra]

Can you cloak the Tether on M Loomithar?

[pure jay]

wasn't sure with it likely going sub for the add phases

[left ledge]

are we holding on forge

for 30

[frail kindle]

like 22 seconds

[graceful terrace]

bump

or is ST just better overall

[lucid jackal]

probs just the cleave talents

[torn storm]

on forge do i pop cds on pull

22 seconds?

[hazy breach]

Doesnt have to be 22 seconds exactly, somewhere between that and 30 is fine

[spare oar]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[steady dune]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste

[steady dune]

Is it just me, or does verse seemingly always sim better than mastery?

[void needle]

Depends on how much mastery you already have. I'm pretty mastery stacked, while vers is at its first dr. I'm not surprised when I enchant or gem it prioritizes vers

[steady dune]

whats the DR for verse?

[void needle]

Plus vers provides a lot of benefits overall. I have no issues with stacking it either. It will probably make a lot of content overall easier

30, 40, 50, 66 or something like that

From 0 to 30%, there's no penalty.
From 30% to 39%, there's a 10% penalty.
From 39% to 47%, there's a 20% penalty.
From 47% to 54%, there's a 30% penalty.
From 54% to 66%, there's a 40% penalty.
From 66% to 126%, there's a 50% penalty.

[steady dune]

ah I think im right near the edge of 30%, like 28 or something

[void needle]

Mastery works differently though, it should take 700 mastery to equate to one "mastery point" and each "point" is worth about 2.5% mastery for sub rogue

And I think sub starts around 20% with no rating from gear

I'm not certain on the diminishing return for mastery, every spec is different but it does exist. Those other percentages apply to all other secondary stats

[graceful terrace]

Im kinda confused on how the coup de grace rules work with our set and when to evis versus using shuriken storm in ST

[void needle]

Shuriken storm in between initial coup and 4p coup during cds

[graceful terrace]

so only while blades+flag is up

otherwise i just strike

evis

[void needle]

Anytime you have dance up usually

Most important during blades

[graceful terrace]

now another question

what is the rules on that when i have CP already

[void needle]

Send the second coup

[graceful terrace]

and why is it that i am using storm

is it unseen blade im worried about?

i dont really understand how it works together

[void needle]

Shuriken is only for combo points... Because Sectech gives you Disorienting strikes which removes the cooldown for your next two ub, ub is the same spell id as coup, if you track it with a wa or something it will turn into your coup indicator at 5 stacks, you cannot stack more than 5 so any generated between the two is wasted

[thorn karma]

Is double on-use (Prism+Forge) better than 1 of them + Pacemaker?

It sims lower, but I see ImExile using it in RWF, I wonder if it's good for M+ as well

[void needle]

Shuriken does not proc ub, when ss has a chance to waste one of your sectech "resets"

[void needle]

Far better in m+ from what I've seen

[graceful terrace]

so the only time I wouldnt use storm is when im not in SD or CDs

and do i hold coup ever?

like 10 secs from blades?>

[void needle]

coups outside of cds are pretty worthless, I generally send them regardless of cp to avoid the energy waste to build up 6 and still get the cdr benefit

[thorn karma]

cool, do you just macro them, forge first, then prism so prism can stack up?

[graceful terrace]

because I see that we can hold finishers to pool Shadow tech. but with that being said do I still use builders at full cp?

[void needle]

I would not hold onto them unless you have blades/dance soon

About 10 seconds before flagellation is reasonable

Just keep mashing spenders even at cap

[graceful terrace]

but i still can spam bs ?

ah

ok

thanks man. I really needed some of this info

Trying to polish myself for raid

[void needle]

Idk about any macro writing, but yes generally you use forge on your opener, followed by prism second cd set

Also damage increase in raid is negligible on certain fight timings. It benefits more from shorter fights than longer ones. Anything over 5 mins prism+passive is generally better

Having an on use every pack in m+ does make you explode though

It does bank on having at least one blades use per pull, the further each fight timer strays from 90 second intervals the better the passive mainstat from a passive trinket gets

@thorn karma

[thorn karma]

gotcha yeah that makes sense, ill take my ritual forge from vault and try it out then

[dusk stone]

found a new sub bug

or bug in general

my cd macro refuses to use shadow blades

only on boss pulls apparently

[void needle]

How is it written?

[dusk stone]

#showtooltip Unyielding Netherprism
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Shadow Blades
/use tempered potion
/use Unyielding netherprism

it works, just not on bosses in raid

its literally just shadow blades not working sometimes

[void needle]

As a rule of thumb I wouldn't put cold blood in your blades macro, since you want to use it on the second sectech. But I don't see anything wrong with syntax that would explain blades not casting. Have you tried mashing the button a couple times? Multistep macros sometimes struggle with using all the functions at once even if they are off gcd

[lucid jackal]

[void needle]

gg gratz

[left ledge]

[void needle]

Show me the parse!

[left ledge]

they private log

[dusk stone]

yes

[lucid jackal]

[dusk stone]

dw about cb

[lucid jackal]

Boss is so shit

[left ledge]

you shouldve played sub

for the memes

[lucid jackal]

So fucking boring and its literally just RNG if you get chain knock backed

[void needle]

^

Gloom is right

[lucid jackal]

Get knockbacked on every CD followed by AFKing at max range because bombs

Cool fight

[left ledge]

backstab

[left ledge]

yeah fight is literally just rng

im not looking forwards to it

but it drops prism i guess

[woeful roost]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[void needle]

lmao, it's not an insane dps increase granted. But I use a macro for shadow blades with sectech unmodified, and my other macro cb/sectech for everyother time I hit sectech. Which makes sure I use cb on the next sectech. If you don't want to mess with it, that's fine. I just find a second macro an easy way to play the "optimized" way without having another keybind

[lofty kraken]

Is anyone else 60 minute tricks just not working?

[dusk stone]

Reason being im changing it later been trying to make this bs work all day

[void needle]

did that cast sequence macro from earlier work when you changed to the item slot number instead of a /use in the middle?

[woeful roost]

guys we use fractillus trincket when is full stacked?

[void needle]

Not necessarily

[short radish]

I THOUGHT SUB IS THE PROG SPEC

[void needle]

You can, for example on add phases or damage amps. But using it by itself you have to skip the first cd set, but then its generally every 90 seconds after

[dusk stone]

no, had to rewrite it entirely, the one i rewrote was still broken

because blades or w/e but in hindsight if its broken now

[woeful roost]

aa ok thanks 🙂

[dusk stone]

gonna have to break out ahk ig

[void needle]

If you opt to use double on use, you use your second trinket on first cd set, prism on second, then back to the first. Prism+forge is the only double on use combo that looks at all worth it though.

[woeful roost]

so if i have pacemaker and prism i use it con the second cd set to build stacks?

[void needle]

yep, then every cooldown after that

Only skip the first

[woeful roost]

okok

[fiery rampart]

both today yup

[civic lake]

when going into a small window (symbols, dance, sec tec) how early do you cast shadow dance in the since of sec tec is still on CD ive been aiming for 10 seconds.

[void needle]

Sectech should be off cd by then, symbols/dance are off gcd. Usually you just wait for sectech to be ready before you send either. (spender as sectech comes off cd)-SoD-Dance-ss-sectech-ss-evis

[solemn lance]

Does it seem right that my Sims are now having go crit over vers gems and crit ring enchants?

Just got 4 piece

[void needle]

What sim are you using? Dungeon slice? Which talent set are you using? Also, what is your current vers and crit rating?

[distant sage]

i have a coupe question
when my combo point is supercharged and i have option between sectec and second coupe form 4 set which one is more optimal to consume that supercharge

[void needle]

Sims tend to prefer crit in aoe, if you don't have a lot of the crit talents selected crit is prefferred too

[void needle]

Generally prio sectech, first global in use sectech, then spend coup.

[solemn lance]

i dont have the numbers in front of me but both dungeon and ST are calling for it. I think I had like 107 or 110% mastery and a decent amount of vers

didnt have a lot of crit

yeh my gear had a total of like 1800 crit

[void needle]

Lmao that's why

We definitely don't want 0 crit especially at the amount of dr our vers is reaching

[solemn lance]

Ill see what my ideal drops are from M+ and raid and see if its pushign a couple crit heavy peices on me as well

[void needle]

If the sim says to do it, it's probably right. I also think it makes sense. You can always compare between two sets using vers enchants and gems vs crit gems and enchants

[solemn lance]

yeh just got an ilevel upgrad eneck with some crit on it to which its reccomending and is a pretty substantial dps increase

thanks!

[void needle]

Np!

[void needle]

If you're still low on crit, make sure you take the talent "planned execution", which even with a fair amount of crit already is about a 5% dps increase, likely more if your stat is starved

[odd verge]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[zenith prism]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

If they don't want to remove fw, they should make it a 15 or even 20s debuff

I'm still feelycrafting myself into believing that symbols - storm - dance - sectec - backstab - finisher - strike... could be the play with rotten

I'm playing inev and rotten, so using symbols that early doesn't make it run out before tfd ends

[tame terrace]

why no innev in m+ build

[void needle]

Finality is pretty strong in aoe. Specifically for blackpowder which is bugged in our favor atm.

[hollow spear]

Bugged in our favour?

[void needle]

Unfortunately the last few rows is pretty rigid. Death P, Dark Shadow and Danse Macabre are mandatory for most content.

[void needle]

Blackpowder activates finality's bonus damage on every attack

It's supposed to be every other like how it interacts with evis

Not the primary attack though, just the extra 30% shadow. However this still makes the talent stronger than intended

In aoe specifically

[hollow spear]

Works against us with coup

[void needle]

It doesn't work against us per se. It just applies to the first or second hit never the last. Still a damage gain on coup, just not as much as intended

edited mb, first or second hit. Not second half

[vale pine]

you probably don't have the macro on your stealth ection bar

unelss its this

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[honest saddle]

Is the dungeon build supposed to have tea?

instead of cold blood

[short radish]

[honest saddle]

that seems wild work

[short radish]

you macro it to dance

[woeful wren]

Do you macro Flagellation and blades?

[short radish]

no

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[short radish]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[vale pine]

yes

you just macro tea to dance and forget about it

[honest saddle]

/wa

[vale pine]

so don't think its a lot of work

[short radish]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

cuz its a fake build

[short radish]

it does feel bad though

and my feelings matter more than facts

[vale pine]

point economy

i assume many will still play the old build instead tho

m+ is a lot more flexible depending on what you optimize or care for

[void needle]

Shadowcraft is actually less valuable than finality in m+, from my sims

If you want inev, rotten, or dark brew. And are ok with it, shadowcraft is the node you pull from. Otherwise next option is taking 1 or 2 points out of finality, which is a more significant dps loss

[short radish]

you can take the point out of shadowcraft from my cold dead hands

[void needle]

ikr XD

personally I just don't run inev, rotten, or dark brew

With dark brew actually being a dps gain over shadowcraft in aoe

[woeful wren]

is dark brew dps gain with DH?

[void needle]

Sorry, i'm tired. What is dh?

[short radish]

if you're on reddit in some subreddits it stands for dear husband

[woeful wren]

demon hunter, it's 3% magic no? assume dark brew benefits from that on ur ruptures or do they not convert

[short radish]

but i assume he's talking about demon hunters

[void needle]

Ohhhhh

duhb

[short radish]

i dont think the 3% is enough to sway things

[void needle]

Afaik all shadow damage works with dh buff

[woeful wren]

I mean if ur cleaving them surely it adds up

[void needle]

A couple bugs to note with the shadow damage. Cleave from nimble flurry will never ignore armor like shadow damage usually does because flurry converts it all to phys, the 20% shadow damage increase from Shadow blades does not apply to flurry, and the shadow portion from replicating shadows doesn't benefit from finality or either stratagem nodes

Overall shadow builds are pretty buggy and won't perform as well as you would think on paper

Also believe it or not Deathstalker is still bugged, and doesn't interact with almost any of the shadow damage talents. Hence why deathstalker is absolute garbage aoe, combined with a weak tierset making them not even viable in st.

[woeful wren]

Damn, that sucks

[void needle]

Have you played deathstalker? XD

[night sparrow]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[void needle]

I've never been more glad trickster is always better

It is by far the more enjoyable to play hero tree

[vale pine]

completely agree on that

[void needle]

s1 I was trying to force deathstalker to work, and it did technically do a little more single target. But it's such a pain in the ass

By the end I was just running trickster anyways

[vale pine]

i am curios to see if the next xpac will introduce a lot of change

or if we continue on the current talent system

[void needle]

Allegedly hero talents aren't going anywhere next xpac, they are expanding the existing hero talent trees

[haughty mural]

Yea they can gladly bake 4p in there

*trickster

[vale pine]

maybe they re-work deathstalker

one man can dream

[void needle]

lmao

They'll just add more shadow talent nodes that don't scale with all of our shadow talents

[still anvil]

baseline no parry & 1h tricks, full deathstalker revamp......

[vale pine]

i actually think raid wide no parry was goated

[void needle]

Yeah, THAT'S the bug they fix smh

[still anvil]

i just don't think parry should be a mechanic in the game in 2025, but that's a different discussion

[vale pine]

i think its fine

if you have a class dissabling it

like rogue

[haughty mural]

fuu do you have any numbers how much coup finality thing fix would increase our ST ?

[vale pine]

not sure, probably 1-2%

[still anvil]

that would be a decent compromise imo and it would keep the "flavour" of parry which they evidently do want to keep
sounds good

[short radish]

now that'd be a good raid buff

[vale pine]

yes

[void needle]

It doesn't work with the 30% shadow from find weakness as is. But it would add 30% damage to 2 more of the 3 hits from each eligible coup

[vale pine]

it is

[haughty mural]

thought it would be more with how much dmg coup does now

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[ornate heron]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

is probably what they should fix first

🙂

[tight monolith]

sub feels really good in raid and m+ rn, might just full send sub in m+ too since assa gets a bit boring even doe the output is amazing

[void needle]

Have you seen sub output in m+?

phew, it makes me sweat

sub nerf never

[tight monolith]

haha yyy

[void needle]

nobody tell blizz we're having fun

[tight monolith]

did a 12 dawn to cap gilded before my raid yday, was pretty good (altough ele sham had pc issues and was afk for like 1/4)

[lucid jackal]

It feels good to be right about sub

turns out ST patchwork sims don't actually mean much at all

[void needle]

Plenty of people hitting 10m overall dps in keys. We are lowkey one of the highest damage specs in a lot of the dungeons

[keen path]

In dungeons with 4 set, do you just send double coupdegrace when its up?

[void needle]

During cd's make sure you have 6+ cp

[keen path]

Even on big aoe pulls?

[void needle]

Yes!

[keen path]

awesome 🙂 thanks heaps!

[void needle]

Make sure if you have to build in between coups you use shuriken storm instead of ss though

[haughty mural]

you guys tested sigil yet ?

[void needle]

Outside of cd's I just send both coups regardless of cp, not worth the energy to build up the cp for mid damage

[void needle]

Not with my own two hands, but sims look good

[haughty mural]

it sims good

but it did 1/4 of the dmg of my postmaster trinket in yesterdays raid

same ilvl

i was a bit disappointed

[vale pine]

well they do, but we are lucky the fights they matter are early enough or not tight damage checks

subtlety pure st is still not great

[void needle]

According to sims the postmaster sack is nearly a full % behind in pure st at same ilvl

[vale pine]

ye, its not good

[void needle]

Maybe that's a bug, or sack has huge variability

[vale pine]

the later

it can highroll

so if you compare it to one seasion of target dummy, you might see good results

[mighty citrus]

as prism is a kind of different trinket, do i just bind it to sb and forget about it or is there some minmaxing?

[haughty mural]

i mean i tried it not only on one boss

but yea probably low rolled sigil

[vale pine]

you can optimize on a per boss base and especially with 2 on use trinkets

[void needle]

I mean, you don't use it on first cd since you don't have any real stacks. But it is used every 90 seconds if you're not trying to do the min maxing with double on use

[vale pine]

but if you use prisma + passive, its easiets to just use it every blades

[void needle]

^

[vale pine]

can ofc skil the first use unless you start the fight with high stacks

*skip

[void needle]

Resets stacks on boss pull no?

Resets on key start I know for sure

[vale pine]

the reason sub is played over assassination btw. is not only aoe trade offs

[void needle]

Damage amps bb

[vale pine]

but also because subtleties burst sequence has less ramp up time

[void needle]

love that shit

[vale pine]

so sub can point with higher brust for many of the damage amps

[void needle]

You CAN and maybe should try to optimize stacks for amp burst

[vale pine]

so we kinda in a s3 DF situation

but with way worse baseline tuning

[mighty citrus]

i try to prep for forgeguy

might bind it to sb for now, cause i might forget otherwise

[void needle]

The big thing so far with forge is a 20-30 second opener delay

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[iron plover]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

if you play forge + prisma

use forge first

[void needle]

You actually do get a decent amount of stacks doing this, and burst the adds pretty good

[vale pine]

double on use def. has some value

so ye

[mighty citrus]

so open with normal dance and wait until first wave comes?

[vale pine]

but maybe not as much as you would assume

forge is a lot more damage in the opener

[iron plover]

what does "tier set buff does not allow new applciations of unseen blade stacks" mean

[lucid jackal]

Using the ST patchwork sims to base "how good my spec is" is stupid

Which was my point all pre tier

[vale pine]

i mean thats 10 years old knowlage

[void needle]

Especially for sub rogue

[lucid jackal]

Didn't seem to be based on the dooming in this channel pre mythic

[vale pine]

but it highly depends on the tier

[lucid jackal]

Even on heroic week ppl were like the sky if falling

[vale pine]

the problem is

as you mention

heroic

[haughty mural]

dooming wasnt that bad this time, was it ?

[vale pine]

is way closer to patchwerk than mythic

and this tier has a lot more special designed fights with damage amps

[void needle]

True

[vale pine]

especially classic raid design

has A LOT of patchwerk

so the entire notation of "patchwerk bad or unrealistic" is wrong

[night sparrow]

I secretly ToT palrets before pulling

[vale pine]

because it depends heavily on tier design

tier = raid tier (not tier set)

we can also look at some details as to quantify dooming a bit

the first boss of the tier is pure patchwerk, with subtlety being in an advantage because it does not sugger from downtime, if we look at the logs:

then we go to the 2nd one, again pure patchwerk, with execute. Subtlety can benefit with burst from, still

and then there is fractilus, also pure patchwerk

[lucid jackal]

These are all worthless metrics

[void needle]

This guy fuckin gets it