subtlety

[swift tinsel]

That’s about where I’m at when I equip FG neck , will get more when I can catalyze tier legs too

As soon as I swapped some crafts I’ve been getting showered in mastery gear lol

[tribal blade]

might honestly recraft my dagger from crit+mast to crit+vers

[swift tinsel]

Pretty sure that’s what I did

Dagger ring neck all got recrafted to crit+vers or crit+mastery

Oh and bracers too

[tribal blade]

cue whispyr going on a rant about how secondary stats don't matter

and how we piss him off

[swift tinsel]

Lmao I just do what the robot says when the gain is over 1%

Otherwise I wouldn’t bother recrafting/gemming

[tribal blade]

as sin i just try to get a lot of crit because it feels way better to play sin with high crit

and sub i try to lean into vers because might as well get more DR

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that’s one of the reasons I’ve swapped some stuff too, playing sin in dungeons more

I just use vers flask

[tribal blade]

me too

[swift tinsel]

I hover around 20% without it so I feel pretty tanky baseline

[tribal blade]

i love having high vers

makes such a noticable difference

[swift tinsel]

Lol same, I check logs or details and I’m always lowest damage taken

Even when playing like a dumbass

[tribal blade]

yeah rogue life 😉

[swift tinsel]

Kinda wish cheat was baseline and we could run elusiveness all the time lol

Be truly immortal

[clever holly]

in the dungeon build i swap cold blood for tea but how and when do i use tea and can i simply macro it somewhere?

[crystal bone]

97.3 avg for heroic week 1 boys not bad not bad

ima sub gamer now

[verbal gust]

Hey everyone does anyone know when to use the netherprison?

[swift tinsel]

Macro to dance and forget about it

[hazy breach]

With blades

Either every blades or every other, depending on what you want/need

[verbal gust]

and we dont care about stacks? @hazy breach

[short radish]

😎

[haughty mural]

With double on use, every other is they play right?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[haughty mural]

E.g. if I get forge and prism

[hazy breach]

But im not really sold on double on-use

[clever holly]

do we stack to like 8 every blades?

[hazy breach]

Or 16+ every other

[clever holly]

y give me more to think about -.-

[haughty mural]

I mean I passed on first antenna and forge for the team anyway - so it’ll take i while till I get to double on-use

[clever holly]

so if theres a dmg amp every other is better but without just sending is the same right?

[hazy breach]

Yes for amp you would want it maxed

[void hound]

how long does it take for netherprism to max out?

roughly

[hazy breach]

It stacks exactly every 10s

So exactly 180s

[void hound]

[dusk zinc]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[dusk zinc]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[void hound]

does netherpsirm start out maxxed or is it basically useless on pull

[hazy breach]

Useless on pull

[sly shore]

You can get 1 stack before its not useless!!!!

[shadow lance]

Keep making the sub great again

People are so surprised

with the damages

[alpine wraith]

big sub power

[shadow lance]

That became my goal

Put in people mind Sub is awesome

[cursive vapor]

https://tenor.com/view/dps-marmotta-capitano-gif-21216356

[alpine wraith]

man german words are funny Kundeneinkaufswarenabrechnungsfachkraft

next week we are rising for sure 4p and forge+prism

just believe

[cursive vapor]

i am german and i never heard that someone saying

[alpine wraith]

likely got said as a joke

seems lots of things garbled together

[crystal bone]

its rare to come across a sub player, even more rare to see them perform well with it

im guessing

[shadow lance]

That's why I made myself a mission

[cursive vapor]

Rinderkennzeichnungsfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz is the longest german word which was also in the dictionary

[void hound]

still fewer key strokes than sub's opener

[alpine wraith]

nice that seems like an incantation

[valid yoke]

Teach me the ways sensei

[haughty mural]

Press buttons

[shadow lance]

Press button in right order

[valid yoke]

Got it

[shadow lance]

I try to improve by following Stealthi optimization things

Like, supercharge the second coup in normal dance

[valid yoke]

Are we still doing the whole

Shuriken storm on ST for second coup bollocks?

[limpid sage]

what do you mean 'still'

we just started doing it

(yes to my knowledge there's no change)

[valid yoke]

I wasn’t sure if that was the norm

😂

[shadow lance]

It is

And I forget 1/2 time to do

[valid yoke]

I tried assa for a bit but the energy starvation feels awful so I’m just gonna otp sub

Cos it’s more fun

[limpid sage]

ye assa apm is way too low

[haughty mural]

In which way ?

[valid yoke]

So here’s a question, what if the storm doesn’t get you to 7cp for second coup? Do you use another builder or just spend anyway?

[limpid sage]

it's only within sblades you do it, so it'll always give full cp

[valid yoke]

Ah gotcha

[haughty mural]

The storm thing is only in blades

Oh too slow

[valid yoke]

What do you do outside of blades then?

[limpid sage]

I haven't tested on APL if it makes sense to do it on 5+ targets

[shadow lance]

Dance > coup > sod > sectec > coup

[limpid sage]

but I just do it whenever it gives me full cp, which is probably wrong

[haughty mural]

Ah yea - was doing that intuitively

But thx

[shadow lance]

Yes, you could sod sectec coup coup

[meager coyote]

boys in the sheet

for dungeon trinkets

the cloak has nothing in it

am I seeing something wrong or?

@vale pine am I seeing something wrong or was it a mistake?

[stoic pier]

Did you get the print of the skill damage history?

[alpine wraith]

visual thing

it has the correct bonusid

for stats

[vale pine]

its a tooltip issue

[meager coyote]

kkk tyty

[alpine wraith]

just raidbots does not translate it well but does use the stats

[meager coyote]

❤️

[alpine wraith]

it is mastery btw

if you wanted to know

[meager coyote]

ye I assumed but I was like wtf is this oversight

[vale pine]

but you can put whatever in cloak

these are not permanently lost like gems

[alpine wraith]

just not haste

[vale pine]

so you can easy switch

[meager coyote]

ye I know haha

[vale pine]

but crit/vers and mastery are all super clos

close

just don't use haste

[meager coyote]

ye I mean iut depends on my sim

was just looking into trinkets

[limpid sage]

would be nice if we'd get the ww treatment in terms of haste scaling

[meager coyote]

to see what I'll suffer over this patch, and noticed the cloak : )

[limpid sage]

buffing our finisher dmg by x% haste or something

[meager coyote]

I was also coping hard that the reason it's 2x on use is due to the cloak being a mistake 💀 but I guess 2 on-use gameplay it is fml

[hazy breach]

Just play antenna

[limpid sage]

ye or bind one of them to sblades and make a habit of pressing prism before sblades

[meager coyote]

I mean I'll play w.e will sim best but I personally find double on-use as bad gameplay

from design perspective

except maybe when it's some sort of an "press this to do big dam after ur cds"

but that's usually a sign of bad class design XD

[hazy breach]

Dslice is only 6 minutes

So double on-use gets more value since most of the value is being able to use it on pull

[alpine wraith]

double on use is if you know what you are doing likely

antenna and other passives are mighty good

for m+ it seems banger tho

[limpid sage]

isn't antenna annoying to play?

[alpine wraith]

not really

the balls come to you

[shadow lance]

This?

[limpid sage]

oh ok

[alpine wraith]

the proc is rng tho

[meager coyote]

I still remember the smolder+branch gameplay

[stoic pier]

yees, thanks!

[limpid sage]

guess there's some slight optimization playing it like smolderon fight

waiting for your cds to get closer and then hogging all the balls at once

[alpine wraith]

prism is better kinda

as sometimes you delay like 10 to 20 secs

and kinda lose nothing with it

[remote eagle]

pretty much 11.2 experience

[alpine wraith]

did you interrupt him

[crystal bone]

surely the pally tank had it covered

they get 90 kicks per dungeon

[spice matrix]

dude noticed your spec 90% into the dungeon

[spice lichen]

it's giving 8.2 vibes all over again

8.1? whenever s2 was

[lusty root]

I feel like sub does much better boss dmg in m+ than assa, like insanely more

[spice lichen]

if there's nothing pulled on the bosses, definitely

If you're able to pull onto the bosses sin is just free

[lusty root]

Good point, I could see that helping a ton

[supple mirage]

Hello everyone, what’s the WA called that makes a weapon reload sound when combo points proc, please?

[crystal bone]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[crystal bone]

first bullet point

[supple mirage]

It work with BTE procs in Outlaw, but also with procs in Sub?

[gaunt bluff]

do u guys know what damage doesnt count in logs from floodgate?

finished run on details showed mage 1m above me in overall and logs hes 700k under

[lusty root]

Did you have aug?

[gaunt bluff]

no

[crystal bone]

not sure about outlaw, but the weapon reload sound ur looking for is that one

[gaunt bluff]

or same with another log

assa on details flood was 1m below me

[supple mirage]

Ok thanks !!

[gaunt bluff]

on log im same dmg

[alpine wraith]

funny how lilly is worse than pvp trink XD https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/madNguiRQbcf6375PufDVX

now i can finally try both in m+ and see

[crystal bone]

lily buffs soon

[warm marlin]

Yep

Bleed st sucks a bit without funnel

[radiant raptor]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[valid vault]

on opener if im able to get to sectech off twice in the first dance window should i delay the second dance until i'm able to get another sectech in it

[placid crown]

I post this now as it should not last for a long time :)))

I dedicate it to all players who answered my questions here

tyvm

[crystal bone]

in sims, the robot casts 2 sectech's in the TFD window, ive personally always waited for the 2nd dance though

and i'm still parsing 99's

[warm marlin]

Is not a gain to wait

[valid vault]

even if you don't get a sectech in the second dance?

[warm marlin]

The earlier you cast sectec the higher the chance you get your coups off in blades

and the faster it comes back up for 3rd dance

so long as you cast dance off gcd before the clones land if sectec cast is close to dance ending you’re only missing a bit of danse damage amp

[valid vault]

ok

ty

[crystal bone]

if ur able to get 3 sectec's off in blades then i might try to do that

if u however mess up and the clone lands outside of dance its a big loss

so i always played it safe

[warm marlin]

You won’t get 3 sectecs off in blades but you can get a finisher and maybe first part of sectec off with flag still up + a lot of flawless form stacks

[crystal bone]

it seems tough to pull it off lol

gotta be gcd-perfect

it feels satisfying to be gcd-perfect in every dance window tho

the extra coups from 4 pc is game changing

[slate hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glacial hinge]

Yo, does atrophic stack? At least on this patch

[chrome palm]

Yes

[proper latch]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[shadow lance]

I'm coming bro

I'm far, still, but I'm coming

[glacial hinge]

On wowhead there is a coment on the buff that says it no longer stacks any idea?

[hollow spear]

Kush playin gloomblade on Fract

and it works 😮

[alpine wraith]

damn actually lilly+pvp trink is quite good in m+

[warm marlin]

the gloomblade rotten cook is crazy

[keen dome]

gloomblade season??? purple backstab, my beloved?!

[warm marlin]

wait

when did they fix gloomblade applying fw from the front

it still didnt last season

@hazy breach

[swift tinsel]

ew it does

probs some ptr copyover weirdness

[granite pecan]

What's the % of mastery before diminishing?

[spice matrix]

Gloomblade cook??

[warm marlin]

taking rotten seems like a bit of an overcook when you can just shadowstrike in cds instead but the gloomblade tech seems good

would have been nice on sprocket

[gaunt bluff]

i assume it also sends symbols in the first dance with the sectec then right

[crystal bone]

yes, every sectec is always supercharged

[hazy breach]

It definitely wasnt working on sprocket

[alpine wraith]

likley one fo the ptr fixes we didnt catch

or added this week

[hazy breach]

But also idk if gloomblade is even worth it anyway, you have to scuff your tree so bad

[alpine wraith]

who knows because communication with blizz kek

tbh i would not even drop imp storm

XD

[hollow spear]

dunno if you can force the sim to not apply fw via backstab

[warm marlin]

its just position=front

doubt the gloomblade fix is in sim tho

[hollow spear]

yeah, but you can sim the loss you have from not having fw

and then the less you get from talents

and kinda cross check

according to the bot, I lose 3,5% from speccing gloomblade

[hazy breach]

Gloomblade is like -100k compared to just natty standing behind

[strange chasm]

but on fract you cannot stand behind

so that would make sense

[hazy breach]

But you can storm for FW and/or start the blades window with strike instead of backstab

So im fairly sure its better to just not spec it

[strange chasm]

could also just play fb ass lmao

[hollow spear]

that's what he's doing

[vale pine]

gloomblade seems meh, so not sure why you would talent into it

[warm marlin]

as long as you shadowstrike for cds (unless you magically proc fw) its only about a 2% loss to be stuck in front

so probably not worth with your 3.5% number

[stiff spear]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[signal moth]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[signal moth]

why not macro CB to ST?

[hazy breach]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[bright sundial]

Does anyone know the loss in dungeon dps taking cb over tea?

[bleak night]

everything

[hazy breach]

Roughly 1% either way

(as in tea is ~1% loss on ST and cb is ~1% loss on aoe)

[haughty mural]

Me thinks tea is only really ahead with new 4p and the more crit you get from the higher ilvl gear

Or am I tripping ?

[zealous hedge]

idk the 20 percent mastery is kinda good wit the big sec tec

and if it crits anyway

[haughty mural]

Yea with more baseline crit

With season 2 numbers I’m not so sure anymore

But I’m not so smart as our smart guys in here

I just press buttons zugzug

[valid sundial]

changing my icons teehee

[valid yoke]

Any subtlety pro’s who make content for sub atm, I imagine shindig is on assa atm and I wanna watch some gameplay to learn from

[alpine wraith]

have been doing videos for some years

but there is also guides on wowhead etc

[limpid sage]

who decided for dimensius to have the smallest hitbox ever

while having mechanics that require you to go into range

[valid yoke]

Lovely

[valid sundial]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[neon frigate]

How good is sub this season?

[alpine wraith]

quite decent aoe and cleave

kinda mid st

[crystal bone]

^

[rocky ocean]

how to approach explaining to a guildie that macroing sec tech with symbols is a terrible idea

[steel jolt]

Could have sworn I saw a command about that or something

Might be in the guide

[cursive vapor]

A simple look into guides is sufficient to understand

[plush roost]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[haughty mural]

send him here

[cursive vapor]

could just say “noticeable dps loss” maybe and if hes asking why exactly -> guides

[crystal bone]

every1 always wants to push less buttons and not play a piano

link him the one button macro assist

[cursive vapor]

I have a macro with sectec, symbols, dance, flag, bp, blades, tea and throw glaive

[haughty mural]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[rocky ocean]

ok they entirely dismissed my argument

unlucky

[radiant raptor]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[rigid pasture]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[valid sundial]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[void hound]

i suppose you can use shuriken storm with premed in regular dances to not munch unseen blade procs right

[weak magnet]

do I use prism on every cds?

[shadow thunder]

should i always use shadow dance with symbols outside cooldowns? or should i save them for the next cooldown cycle?

[karmic harbor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[karmic harbor]

why shouldnt we macro cb and st?

[jade urchin]

every cds is fine, you can delay to second cds for damage amps

[hazy breach]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[karmic harbor]

tyty

my cb + st macro isnt even working

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[hazy breach]

[karmic harbor]

amazing

ty again eleem

[bleak night]

such a fantastic bug

[dry plank]

It’s new and fresh only 1+ year of existing. Young bug. So 2 more years before fix 🙂

And easy workaround; just logout and login

[lucid jackal]

Well it's one of those bugs that like, haven't mattered at all cuz FB sin has been playable

[tawny laurel]

whats the reasoning to play sub on 4th exactly?

[dry plank]

Where is usual “sub is fine”?

[lucid jackal]

Can use dances on add sets

And can abuse damage amp the best

[lucid jackal]

It's one of the best specs on one of the first walls of the raid

[tawny laurel]

riight, ty for answering

[lucid jackal]

Is say that's pretty good spot to be in, no?

[dry plank]

You forgot to add rogue specs ))

[lucid jackal]

What?

What are you getting at?

[dusky nymph]

what state is sub in this patch? Logs and mythic stats point in a good direction, but I'm still not sure if I should respec from Sin to the more superior spec fun-wise

[hazy breach]

He did not

[bleak night]

perfecto playing sub on salad bar

damage amp cope is real

[void hound]

sub is doing well (for a melee)
even topped one of the harder fights as guy pointed out

[dusky nymph]

sweet

guess I'll finally find my way back to higher stealth move speed glory

and free shadowstep glory

fuck yeah

[chrome palm]

you prefer playing sub you should play it

its really fun rn

[dusky nymph]

yeah I'll totally switch then :3

[chrome palm]

new tier is premium

[dusky nymph]

I was holding off last season as I mostly love sub due to nostalgia (WoD times where you had the same amount of bleeds as sin)

I missed multi-dot bleeding

but... who cares

sub stands for subperior amirite

[left ledge]

In raid sub so far is only definitively better for forge

[lucid jackal]

I always wonder if it gets tiring being a professional victim

[left ledge]

For m+ I like sub more than sin

[lucid jackal]

But it seems like it never does for some people

[left ledge]

Echo is playing sub on king but

I’m unsure how sin performs there

Seems like sub is for platform

[bleak night]

yeah i didnt watch to see what was going on with it

will see if exile also goes sub or tries assa

[left ledge]

I watched a bit and it seems like his strong point was platform like we suspected would be the case for sub

But I didn’t see if he even attempted sin

Probably comp dependent honestly

Sin could prob crank boss harder

But it would def not do as well on platform

[bleak night]

i think its likely liquid just copy echos comp

[lucid jackal]

Hmm so it seems like the damage amp copium and also the ability to move cooldowns does matter

Interesting

[bleak night]

they've already proven it gets you to p3

[lucid jackal]

I wonder who was smart enough to comment on that

[bleak night]

now its just executing p3

[left ledge]

Not sure what the amp has to do with platform adds

You can remove the amp from the fight

And it wouldn’t change anything

[left ledge]

King is platforms and mech

No you unfortunately can’t use and to correlate something irrelevant to what the spec is doing

I would love for that to be the case but it’s just irrelevant to what the fight is so far for echo

[lucid jackal]

It's cool to see the game is more than ST patchwork sims as per usual

[left ledge]

And -> the implication that two or more subject matters are linked

[lucid jackal]

So the entire reason the spec is good on forgeweaver is those two factors

[left ledge]

I’m talking about king

Not forge

[lucid jackal]

Well the reason to play the spec on king is the same

Shifting CDs, and damage amps

[left ledge]

Well you would play fb sin

So…

No?

The cd timings seem to be pretty natural tbh

Sub does look very strong on platform though and I highly doubt sin can fulfill that role

[valid yoke]

So question then

[left ledge]

You’d have to go DS probably and then you’d just lose to sub for boss dam and your platform wouldn’t be much better

[valid yoke]

On a short damage amp like platform would you save flag for when it’s over and just pop a dance and sod etc

Or would you pop all

[left ledge]

The platform isn’t the amp

[valid yoke]

Oop, bad example then haha

[left ledge]

The amp is the dragon afterwards

It’s a 30 sec amp

[valid yoke]

Same question then would you save or shove?

[left ledge]

But you’d pop on the platform at least that’s what it’s looking like

[lucid jackal]

depends what ur team needs

[left ledge]

He was able to pop on platform

And on boss

[valid yoke]

Gotcha

[left ledge]

I think I saw the cds come up like 10-15 sec into amp

But yeah it’s def gonna be a comp thing

Also though sub is one of the best specs for dealing with situations like the platform

[fluid fiber]

Hello, are those talents for m+ linked in the pins only better with new t set? because "old" talents are way more dps in sims for me

[leaden prairie]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[alpine wraith]

talents for m+ can be very situational

rn if your gear is lower going a rotten build is still kinda good

even without 4p

you will notice if you play the FW game right

[brave moth]

Anyone know the type of drugs devs were using while making Dimensius? His hitbox is laughable. And his fucking hands have to be cut off...

[final granite]

"biggest boss we've ever created, as big as Stormwind" with hitbox of first boss Streets

[brave moth]

Like everything is purple on purple and the BAMM massive hand goes over and you cant see shit.

[alpine wraith]

hitbox as big as a potato

[brave moth]

No camera angle is good enough

[brave moth]

baby potato*

[alpine wraith]

toxic potato

[gilded lodge]

fingerling potato

[brave moth]

I am not even sure I hit the add when I target the boss

[alpine wraith]

you need to be close to the add

replicating wont work for most of the adds tho

only first ones

[brave moth]

I see the Nimble flurry icon on the healthbar and I just pray I hit it

[mighty citrus]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[paper flame]

have your cb/stech macros suddenly stopped working?

tells me i havent learned cb

[warm marlin]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[serene palm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brave moth]

Can we close the discord until they fix the hitbox of Dimensius ?

[bleak night]

actually real

all melee discords need to unite on this

[brave moth]

^

[tulip badger]

Halondrus' hitbox like?

[brave moth]

I mean "closing" the discord worked for fucking paladins

[sly shore]

how fix cold blood bug

[spice matrix]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[spice matrix]

Relog brother

[sly shore]

thank you

[sly shore]

my honest reaction

[alpine idol]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[alpine idol]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[young crypt]

can we use shadowstep on the last boss in streets to go over the walls safely?

[steel jolt]

No

Would be nice though

Gotta do the mechanics

[zealous hedge]

[modest river]

Void Elf teleport goes through certain walls, including those, if you wanted some weird tech

few raid boss walls as well

[steel jolt]

No way really?

That’s OP

[modest river]

echo of neltharion mythic

my raid leader was calling me out as i got trapped, i just elf tpd over and started asking who was stuck

[woeful wren]

How bad would it be to use crafted sword OH for sub?

[lucid jackal]

Unplayable

[sharp lake]

It’d be really nice for gearing if sub could use 1 handers

[modest river]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[alpine wraith]

WHAT DO THE NUMBES MEAN MASON

[hazy breach]

Worse than a dagger you could buy of the AH for pennies

[woeful wren]

really? damn

[hazy breach]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[hazy breach]

You lose a large amount of your combo point and energy regen by having a non-dagger offhand since theyre slower

[woeful wren]

Yeah, if wep speed matters unlucky

[random hare]

@tepid trellis my coldblood macro not working why?

wtf do i do

??

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[random hare]

oko k

ty

[void ocean]

anyone else has an issue with cold blood weak aura

like its just not fckin working for sub

[bleak night]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[void ocean]

u gotta be shittin me

tnx

it seems relog fixed potion macro bug too

[tepid trellis]

2 mythic pieces for me this evening

[steel jolt]

grats!

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

I got gloves atleast

[mystic bough]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[mystic bough]

wooho time to replace hoc with lily

still rocking no tier-set

[tepid trellis]

got head and dagger

[haughty mural]

Gamer

[native hawk]

W

[civic swallow]

Any recommendations for a good player profile?

[hazy breach]

Man does it feel good to pop cds with prism at max stacks rn in keys, numbers go real big

[cursive vapor]

Big damash

[scenic oxide]

!backstab

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[jagged rover]

did some keys with guildies, one of them our ele shaman. "Can I vote kick this rogue? Those are ele numbers, thats illegal!"

[modest river]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[steel zinc]

@chrome palm best sub rogue fight. Looking forward to forge

[chrome palm]

wtf

i hate australians

[hollow prawn]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[steel zinc]

yeah funny thing is r3 is 92% 😄

I think yours its a 96%

[alpine wraith]

loomitar seems to have hands

so many 2/8

but then

[hazy breach]

Idk

Seems like it but didnt feel like it

[alpine wraith]

many guilds without 4 set and 695 to 700

[serene notch]

Man….looking at the damage numbers makes me feel like I’m just doing something woefully wrong vs top players

[steel zinc]

we didnt do it we splitted 2x 8/8 nm/hc and splitted 2/8 mythic

gear is more important early on since forgeweaver without nerfs wont be a thing for 99% of guilds

once rwf is over you just nerf that fight into the ground

[steel zinc]

if you do one split its impossible for your guild not to have 4 set and every player

26/26 players have 4p

[fringe palm]

it's killable

really bad gear in 2 of those

[high wadi]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wild hornet]

hmm

week 1 aotc not bad

[lucid jackal]

Probably more to do with rout than anything else

[leaden prairie]

wait you do that but then you cant prog naz first week right

or im stupid

[serene notch]

I do notice there’s a lot higher evis damage in top runs then I’m doing, I’m skews towards bp.

[fringe palm]

no we cant, but theres no point really. the reps would help but boss will be nerfed next week (by blizz or gear) and we have 24 extra mythic items on mains this way

[leaden prairie]

hm idk

i think its a very big rep boss

like we spent an entire night progging it tonight

and yes we wont ever kill it tonight

but we just wipe to skill issue

so

[leaden prairie]

this week i mean *

i think its valuable prog time

[fringe palm]

would you consider those 3h more valuable than 20+ mythic items

[chrome palm]

im about to jump off

[rigid pasture]

route + gear

[leaden prairie]

ye maybe not

[fringe palm]

were in a spot where we prog bosses that get nerfed and we loose all advantage sadly. best example is sprocketmonger

we had it 1% prenerf

and then the boss got deleted

why prog

i dont like that its efficient this way but it is

[leaden prairie]

yue

we did the same

you just need to be better tho

grind 30 more ranks and kill bosses pre nerf

[fringe palm]

hard to gain 30 ranks if there are 11 guild ahead of us

[leaden prairie]

gain 9 ranks then noob

same shit

[steel zinc]

kinda pointless for 99% of the guilds starting to prog forge

[vagrant sinew]

unlucky for zac only 7 days in a week

[steel zinc]

its ovinax all over again

[vagrant sinew]

ovinaxx was easier than forge

[leaden prairie]

bro

only 6

and i wanna play more

i swear this game

idk

[steel zinc]

yes it was but had also had certain requirements for a cc chain

[leaden prairie]

i just wanna raid all day you know

[steel zinc]

tbf if the raid is good like this one understandable

and m+ is done after week 1

Also Rogue is not bad this tier arguable the best melee class, just the tier is range king

[vagrant sinew]

how do you have time for push keys

you guys do demon hours after raid?

or just during the day

[leaden prairie]

i mean push keys are after prog generally

or wdym

[vagrant sinew]

+15s or whatever

[steel zinc]

just take off work for the first weeks

[vagrant sinew]

this week I mean

[leaden prairie]

i raid 1 day a week

i mean

15s

this week

arent push keys bro

we just one shotted them all for free

[vagrant sinew]

you know what I meant!!

[steel zinc]

15 keys are like 12 keys last season

[leaden prairie]

it wsnt any hard

[alpine wraith]

they are just too good

they time a 14 into timing a 15

[leaden prairie]

well no i dont know what you mean haha

we just played like

[steel zinc]

like the whole season is a joke in m+

[leaden prairie]

saturday afternoon

[alpine wraith]

tell that to the demons depleting my 11s

[leaden prairie]

and timed everything

idk

also i took 2 weeks holidays

cause im a degen

and i wanted to play wow

[steel zinc]

if you pug keys in this game first week your kinda mental

we legit probably depleted one key this season never been this easy

you can also see it in the prieces of boosting a 10

thats 0 gold already

[frail tide]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[distant sage]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[hallow adder]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tight monolith]

the guy with the crazy numbers is also one of the most loyal sub rogue m+ pushers tbf, season in and out

[dusk stone]

harvesters edict garbo for sub?

[alpine wraith]

if you always get the orb it is decent

[dusk stone]

it'd be replacing my champ seaforium

sim ig

also this is my first season with ara kara, that dungeon is not fun if your group doesnt know it

wipeless if they do ig

[tight monolith]

use the track from your edict to upgrade your seaforium if it gives you a free track

champion or hc abit irrelevant rn since yeah you dont wanna use gilded on hc items either way

[dusk stone]

dont think i can

both of my trinkets are 691 and its asking for crests even with the new 701

[tight monolith]

a fair fair

yeah when you get another 701 you can boost your champ forium to 701 for free

[dusk stone]

its timed 10's or just 10's for portals?

[serene notch]

yea prob wont last but hes currently top DPS damage logged for the season for any spec

wild

[alpine wraith]

big double trink power

[tight monolith]

solid but yeah he is a gamer, I like to watch his streams

[chrome palm]

FG is a great subtlety dungeon

[alpine wraith]

we blast so much

can pull shit on all bosses too

[chrome palm]

And salitikue is a gamer

[tight monolith]

even doe he mostly speaks russian on stream and I understand jack shit, its kinda a vibe

[dusk stone]

i tried not taking TR and used the double finality build you legit can't tell the difference with FW

[chrome palm]

I liked tr a lot when I tried it

[dusk stone]

same

[serene notch]

I think taking rotten still is the play TBH

[dusk stone]

i figured 30% more on evis and bp sounds really good tho so was worth exploring, and its fine

[chrome palm]

The insta 20 fw is good

[dusk stone]

you're using storm as a gap closer anyway though while tank gathers

for rupture spam

[chrome palm]

Yeah but it wears off pretty fast

[dusk stone]

i try it more and see ig

how much more dps is finality like 2% or something?

[serene notch]

my sims like me taking TR > 1 more pip on finality , shrug.

I think that guy takes CB as well, pretty much S2 build

no tea

[tepid trellis]

its not really 30 tho cuz it alternates 0-30-0-30

[dusk stone]

are you dropping deeper daggers as well?

[tight monolith]

I have the sub rogue role in here but I am a fraud, been playing mostly assa last seasons. After lurking some in here tonight I feel the masculine urge to do some sub rogue keys tomorrow afternoon. Hype

[lofty lance]

imo those talents are the move for m+

doing big dam

but idk maybe take deeper daggers over finality

idk if its worth

[serene notch]

I think i like replicating shadows over ST as well

[lofty lance]

ye idk i dont like ST that much

it feels illegal to not play the rotten in keys

[serene notch]

Dslice likes ST though

[dusk stone]

yeah it feels like it

but do you track how much fw is up

[lofty lance]

ye

[dusk stone]

i did an ara kara and never wished for TR

[serene notch]

i have a FW tracker

what i dont understand is how peoples dam profile skews so hard on nimble flurry vs BP

is this due to 4 piece or something?

[lofty lance]

this find weakness weak aura is sick

it also tells u when to bp or evis

[dusk stone]

think my sim is telling me the TR build is 100k more dam

[serene notch]

yea sameish

[lofty lance]

i think cold blood might be better too for some reason

the s2 build kinda pumps

i think i do more dmg

[dusk stone]

resimmed with DD instead of 2 finality and its less

i think finality might be better, dslice doesn't spread rupture a ton so it gets its aoe FW value solely from TR

[short radish]

brother why is recuperate on your bars

[lofty lance]

forgot to remove it ;p

nah jk thats crimson vial

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach bricked 14 DB

sub feels amazing right now

[alpine wraith]

surely next week i get 4p and get to enjoy the game

[tribal blade]

it'll happen

[alpine wraith]

i wonder what good can i even get from vault

like mythic tier at most

because hc trinks are kinda whatever

but im already at socket number 1

[hazy breach]

Sub goes hard

[tribal blade]

yeah sub feels very good

feels better than sin right now

[alpine wraith]

sin needs more tactical play

[tribal blade]

honestly would also play sub in ecodome because juggling the mark on the 2nd boss sucks

[alpine wraith]

but sub even with 2 meh on uses is blasting

[warm marlin]

ecodome has so many prio targets though

[tribal blade]

yeah true

[lofty lance]

sub in all keys

sub in all raid bosses

[steel jolt]

do i have to sync all the cooldowns together? it feels like shadow dance is always up

[lofty lance]

sub is life

[tribal blade]

yes

[steel jolt]

so i'm just waiting for shadow blades all the time and then use everything all together?

[tribal blade]

very bad if you go into cds without enough dance and symbols

[silver yarrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sharp lake]

question of the day: does Wound Poison not work in pve most of the time? Like for example does it work on the healing trash in Priory or Floodgate?

[alpine wraith]

it does work

same as the guy that heals in halls

[bleak night]

wait am i supposed to have been using double on use in keys

[alpine wraith]

it is good yes

but you kinda need to know when to use them

[bleak night]

i only have lily and signet because im a loser

and i know nothing

[alpine wraith]

im using lilly and pvp trink

but ideally you have forge and prism

[coarse flare]

How to use double on use? One with big cds and 2nd one when?

[hazy breach]

Every other

You just rotate

Prism one, forge one

Etc

But idk i wouldnt suggest it

[coarse flare]

[ripe smelt]

can you spread rupture on sub or have to apply manually?

[hazy breach]

2x per cast with replicating specced

[dusk stone]

Check the wowhead guide it explains it all

There is a lot to it

[brittle plinth]

But I mean

That's the jist

But do check the guide out

[steel jolt]

yeah i read that but it has a priority list, not the question i asked

[dusk stone]

Ok so I'll explain the longer way

[slate lantern]

classic assa player

[brittle plinth]

Lol

I didn't want to say it

[steel jolt]

if you don't know or you're gonna be a dick just don't answer

[dusk stone]

It's not a simple answer dude

This isn't assa where you can button mash and get top parse

[steel jolt]

okay, i will just block you

[dusk stone]

Holy

[steel jolt]

clearly you have nothing useful to offer

[brittle plinth]

90% of it is as simple as saying you want to stack as much as you can around your 90s CDs. But there is a bunch of nuance playing around your set bonus and getting to your 90s.

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/rodney-king-get-along-gif-22105666

[dusk stone]

No, I was going to type out a proper explaination and you're being impatient

You stack cd's during flag, you use 1-2 dances between flag windows more or less but there's a lot more than that

[brittle plinth]

But you can't be a sub player till you try and castsequence your opener only to have it fail enough that you fall back to learning it

[tepid trellis]

cant say that ive tried that

[brittle plinth]

😉

[coarse flare]

Same I never even thought about trying that

[brittle plinth]

Wow y'all better human beings than me then hahaha

[tepid trellis]

i did do that on Assa tho when we did 25sec speed kills

[brittle plinth]

There's no pain like it breaking and then having sb and flag off by 15s

[random mason]

Can just use oba now

[jagged rover]

idk, theres starting your flag and blades window and realizing halfway through you aren't going to have the 2nd dance charge in time

[random mason]

Ezpz

[random mason]

Or somehow munching the flag cast

[dusk stone]

Nah

[jagged rover]

I've also had blades not go off for no discernible reason and only realized halfway through flag and already sent dances

[dusk stone]

When your part in your rotation and tank decides you Don't need to be in boss range, that's my favorite part

[jagged rover]

obv I didn't actually hit it, but I'm pretty sure I hit that key

[brittle plinth]

So much pain to be had lol

[random mason]

Thats what cloak and cheat death are for tho

[brittle plinth]

Arguing with my healer that I used feint and he says I didn't

[jagged rover]

I swapped out cheat death for elusiveness last night on mythic plexus, because I'm staying in for every soak cast and still taking less damage than some people taking 1 soak each time

[dusk stone]

Elusive is just better in general

[bleak night]

cheat better bc im bad

[alpine wraith]

elusive is objectively better in a lot of cases

but we are not perfect

so cheat it is

[brittle plinth]

CD hides your fuck ups

[hazy breach]

And why would elusiveness help there

[jagged rover]

I generally prefer cheat for the safety of it, but I figure on this fight if something procs cheat, the rest of the raid is already dead

[hazy breach]

Elusiveness doesnt make feint give you 40+20%, its 40% OR 20%

[bleak night]

well yeah you use cheat to help make sure you can vanish at the end

[hazy breach]

And the 40% already works

[bleak night]

and save on repair bills

[jagged rover]

its for the evasion reduction as an extra dr on the fight

[lucid jackal]

Its good for forgeweaver

but it is overrated

[alpine wraith]

it is very good on fractilus

that dot SLAPS

what is funny about feint is some dots and shit that do constant dmg are also coded as aoe

[jagged rover]

the only scary part on plexus so far is because I run off ahead of the raid because I do nothing to the adds anyway. Considering if I need to swap the fatebound node to get more leech or if tempted fate is better sustain

[hazy breach]

Not even sure it is that good, kush was doing very similar numbers without it

[random mason]

Well AoE DoTs are still AoE

[hazy breach]

Its obviously fine

[alpine wraith]

having evasion as a defensive is very good too

but cheat is just so good for many things

[lucid jackal]

It's obviously not backed by numbers, but 2 on use will help more with adds than not

[alpine wraith]

and the safeness

[lucid jackal]

You're probably good enough without it

[alpine wraith]

maybe more consistent

and that is kinda what you want really

predictable

although we do have sone rng so who knows

that pull you get 8 double unseens and go couper mode

[serene notch]

what dungeon was this , do you have 4 piece?

[lucid jackal]

We need a discord tag that I can apply to all sub rogue doubters

Mfers said damage amps copium

[dusk stone]

For keys are you alternating on use trinks on the same pack or

[tribal blade]

yeah i have 4pc and prism

it was 14 DB

but it's weird dps, we wiped on 2nd boss

[serene notch]

nice dude

[bleak night]

karuichopper giga pumper

[tribal blade]

gonna run sub in ecodome now i think

juggling mark on lizard boss makes me wanna off myself

[lucid jackal]

[short radish]

[bleak night]

[short radish]

is sub blasting on saladman??

[bleak night]

it seems so

[short radish]

cool

either I was wrong about sub not being that good on damage amp fights and I get to enjoy doing big dam
or
I was right about sub being not being that good on damage amp fights and I get to enjoy being righit

either way I come out on top

so whats sub been brought to so far

forge

and saladman?

[fast meteor]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

maybe dimensius as well?

[bleak night]

forge and salad bar so far

dimensius remains to be seen

but its definitely possible

[dusk stone]

Idk even liquid forgot sub existed for forgeweaver at first

[bleak night]

yeah they didnt bring a rogue at all until they saw echo doing it

[radiant shale]

Dh trio too

[dusk stone]

They were running sub at soul hunters?

[bleak night]

exile was playing assa on council, idk what perfecto was playing

know he started outlaw but thought he swapped to assa too

[radiant shale]

Not liquid, but method/echo did

And they did more

[dusk stone]

Really, what for?

There's no damage Amp at hunters

[short radish]

just trying shit or something

you have pretty high uptime and its perma cleave or something right?

[radiant shale]

Maybe deathstalker assa is not strong enough

[short radish]

just no one practices outlaw for RWF

[jagged rover]

I think fatebound sin is really good on nexus king, but glad to see exile playing sub right now

[unkempt sundial]

hi
sub is better than assa now right >?bigger dps ?

[lucid jackal]

Both are good

Depends ont he raid encounter

Depends on the dungeon

[unkempt sundial]

on m+

cause i see top ranks of rogs playing sub

[unkempt sundial]

xD

[alpine wraith]

yes assasination does a lot of overall too

but sub has this control that you can really enjoy

[lucid jackal]

U can play either in keys and it should be good

[merry agate]

Duuuude... it just clicked with new 4 set...

Play all around Coup
Sectec ist just Coup enabler now 😱

a whole new world ~~~

[dusk stone]

What build are you using in keys

[lucid jackal]

I haven't played sub in keys yet really

But if I had to guess, literally just the raid build

I feel the tornado shit is just cope and bad but

I'm not an authority on the subject

Go check WCL to see what ppl are using

[bleak night]

tornado is always cope and bad

[jagged rover]

I liked no tornado, playing rotten and 1/2 finality

[bleak night]

all my homies hate tornado

[dusk stone]

Everyone's kind of between the TR and the finality build and the dslice Sims are bait

[lucid jackal]

I dont think finality vs rotten actually matters much

Just pick 1 and base your personality around a 0.1% dps talent

[bleak night]

real

[golden totem]

Based

[alpine wraith]

tornado is fine if you use it for what it means

getting cdr

faster

to get into next dance

or to get a super dance going

[dusk stone]

Is finality not a significant increase in ST?

[alpine wraith]

using sec tech then tornado into 2 finishers then dance with 2 unseens

[lucid jackal]

its like 0.2%

I mean even the PE talent shit is like 0.1% damage

and its a loss for me

[dusk stone]

I see

So it just doesn't give a lot of actual value or we're losing something that gives us a lot of value

Like 30% to evis on a boss seems jacked, no?

[hazy breach]

To me you kinda need either rotten or tornado

Finality is mostly for BP

[tepid trellis]

rotten is the vibe

[hazy breach]

Ye sim just hates using the storm in dance for rotten

But not doing it feels so ass

[dusk stone]

I need to do more keys but It being redundant atm

[hazy breach]

And seems bad numerically

So idk

[dusk stone]

What talent are you giving up that gives you the same value as finality in ST?

[lucid jackal]

Rotton

Literally go sim it rn

Finality vs rotten

Its like 0.2% dps

[dusk stone]

I was using s
Dslice but that's kinda bait because it's not replicating tank pulls

I didn't do st though yeah

[frail kindle]

Idk in aoe I kinda got used to tab target striking instead of rotten tbh

[alpine wraith]

rotten shines if pack ahs low time to die

as you get a fast FW on everything and slam them

[hazy breach]

Ye nado does the same thing

[alpine wraith]

and even then yes

[hazy breach]

So if you dont get rotten you kinda need nado

Idk fw cringe

[alpine wraith]

tornado also makes you even faster rupture spread brrrr

[short radish]

i refuse to press nado

[frail kindle]

I run no rotten no nado just tab target lmao

[short radish]

i'd rather admit guy is right than press nado

[alpine wraith]

yea sniping targets with no FW

with strike

[dusk stone]

Tank usually takes awhile to gather everything in some pulls so I just spread rupture and fw until it's done

[alpine wraith]

was always a win

since old times

[hazy breach]

I mean the main issue is fw falling of mid blades

[dusk stone]

Fair yeah

[alpine wraith]

yea duration is from wrath times

when dance was 5 secs

kekw

[frail kindle]

Yo true

[lucid jackal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hbh4MKzDFXoWS2jawgJTpR

Nevermind

[frail kindle]

Why tf is fw so short lmao

[lucid jackal]

Rotten is 0.4% st dps loss

It just doesn't move the needle much

[dusk stone]

But then you also have to move for mechanics and stuff and might be in MD

[alpine wraith]

it gets worse on st as you get more crit but even then

our talents are just not that good

[dusk stone]

How is critting a single builder superior to evis doing 30% more on a boss

[alpine wraith]

we choose 4 secons on ONE dance

[lucid jackal]

well its 2

[alpine wraith]

over some random double hit on builders

[hazy breach]

Its 7.5% more evis damage per point

[lucid jackal]

It buffs the 1st swing of coup as well

[dusk stone]

Because you have to build it?

[lucid jackal]

and not the other 3

[alpine wraith]

and coup is kinda bugged with it too

[lucid jackal]

A lot of talents just dont do a lot

Ur just thinking too hard

[dusk stone]

Oh coup is bugged

[hazy breach]

(and roughly 1.5% more coup damage per point)

[alpine wraith]

it buffs first or second hit

pog

(almost all dmg is on third hit)

[hazy breach]

Coup is split 25/25/50

In terms of % of damage

[dusk stone]

Ty

[hazy breach]

First hit on cast, second after 0.4s and the last at 1s

[alpine wraith]

got a random ring on hero map

but at least my alt got the void trink

big delve situation

maybe i get to rank 3 next week to be able to buy the champ thingies

[native zodiac]

@tepid trellis you on forge yet?

[hazy breach]

Im not stealthi but yes

[alpine wraith]

im also not stealthi and no

[lucid jackal]

same

[native zodiac]

what you guys doing for cds

on pull?

[lucid jackal]

Absolutely not

Lol

[hazy breach]

Nah hold for 30

[alpine wraith]

saw people holding for 30 secs

[lucid jackal]

Hold for like 25-30 seocnds

[alpine wraith]

then they line up

[tepid trellis]

yes

[native zodiac]

ye i saw exile do that

[lucid jackal]

Press flag right when the first puddle soak appears

[hazy breach]

You dont wanna send inbetween 1:30-2 anyway