outlaw boss
#subtlety
leaden prairie
swift tinsel
yeah I'm feelin the stonks rise
leaden prairie
stop it now
warm marlin
only for law
leaden prairie
all 3 of my specs are equally geared rn on my main
warm marlin
so i can craft weapon and stuff
leaden prairie
oh so you just never play law
leaden prairie
short radish
repping the soulbinder kill (don't look at my second global please)
keen dome
Hell yeah
short radish
i may have done a shadowstrike into sectech because my keybinds are fucking stupid
and flag is shift v, sectech is v
neon frigate
How good is sub rogue now in New season ?
calm lion
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
hoary garden
!wa
wicked joltBOT
ember lintel
Am I understanding this right?
If flawless form is up but it's 4tar you still BP?
hoary garden
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
steel zinc
repping the soulbinder kill (don't look at my second global please)
you dont split or?
short radish
no spl*ts
stiff spear
Just checking, is Cursed Stone Idol really not worth it? Just sim bait?
alpine wraith
it is fine if you dont have any other on use
swift tinsel
it sims better than my doodoo 671 hoc
alpine wraith
yea for sure
swift tinsel
but I refuse to use the channel
alpine wraith
might as well use the pvp trink
swift tinsel
yeah I should farm for it but I cba
if I don't get prism from vault/raid next week I will
alpine wraith
i got it to replace HoC
tepid trellis
Am I understanding this right?
If flawless form is up but it's 4tar you still B...
4 or more targets we default to just pressing BP
alpine wraith
yea yday i went for the pvp route after not dropping idol or lilly
also got wrists
but i cant upgrade them to 701 yet
because havent dropped any
ember lintel
4 or more targets we default to just pressing BP
gotcha thanks
swift tinsel
also love not being able to upgrade more than a couple hero pieces bc of runed cap
grim compass
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
swift tinsel
ye I just don't have enough crests to upgrade the handful of hero pieces I have currently
wind sage
!tier
wicked joltBOT
Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.
swift tinsel
most annoying part of the season is runed crests gating upgrades
swift tinsel
only have hero track idol so far fortrinkets and don't wanna send runed on it if I can snag a lily
alpine wraith
and i craft ring next week
swift tinsel
ye got Momma neck so that's probs where I'm sending my last 30 runed lol
alpine wraith
got a biggus dickus nack
swift tinsel
dayum that avoidance
alpine wraith
they know sub is for raiding
swift tinsel
that's a fuckload too
recrafted my neck last night and next dungeon got hero track Mommas lol
steel zinc
I should try for lily since I gotta up my io anyways
lilly is pretty bad ngl.
swift tinsel
only to swap stats bc been swapping back and forth between sub and sin
steel zinc
prism + other on use thats not 90 sec in aoe and prism + passive
alpine wraith
yea only a bit better than badge
swift tinsel
I know what gearto target
alpine wraith
but not much
swift tinsel
won't see hero track prism for a minute whereas I can farm lily
dense geode
if u wait for 701 gear you can be done with runed crest next week
gloomy slate
frozen chasm
they know sub is for raiding
Should it Not be Assa raid and sub for m+ with the spreadsheet?
alpine wraith
sub is for both
just get good gear dog
and crit everytime and proc everything in cds
swift tinsel
Should it Not be Assa raid and sub for m+ with the spreadsheet?
sin absolutely cranks m+ esp if you can pull mobs into bosses
not necessarily represented in sims
scenic yarrow
Sub always competes with sin plus early tier you can grab a pvp main stat trinket really easily typically making it sim slightly better than sin, hard to plot that on the chart
alpine wraith
sub can compete with sin on dungeons you have to standalone boss
frozen chasm
Last season in played assa in m+ and sub in raids , but the sims in the sheet and the warcraftlogs Show a different picture? Why is the sim so different from real?
alpine wraith
sims are done to educate on what gear to get
scenic yarrow
Sims are just us equipping bis and running raidbots, you can achieve way different scenarios in real time
alpine wraith
not to sim real world situations
swift tinsel
yeah that's why cross-spec comparisons via sims are a bit bait
frozen chasm
Thanks, so i keep it as last season
swift tinsel
that's not what they're intended for
short radish
Be the king of the subtley rogues
yeah fuck it im doing it, im not swapping
scenic yarrow
Play what you have the most fun on
split oak
perfecto and kush are playing sub, for raid its better i guess
keen dome
yeah fuck it im doing it, im not swapping
split oak
hmm better than assa? o:
vale pine
Should it Not be Assa raid and sub for m+ with the spreadsheet?
adds die too fast
soo
assassiantion looks worse than ita ctually is
means you just play assassiantion everywhere, for the 3rd? or 4th season in a row now ^^
hazy breach
Sub does good in keys too
frozen chasm
I would be happy to Play only 1 spec everywhere, to have easier gearing.
I dont play so much in total
swift tinsel
you can pretty freely swap between sub and sin gear-wise
short radish
just play sub
swift tinsel
plus you can craft 675 weathered crest gear while you're still gearing up early season
to make it even easier if you'reworried about stats (which you shouldn't be but its w/e)
tight jacinth
Perfecto going to get sub annihilated lol
frozen chasm
I will give sub a new chance in m+
chrome palm
I will give sub a new chance in m+
Sub is slammin in m+ for sure
swift tinsel
yeah honestly having more fun as sub than sin in m+ rn
chrome palm
Sin is very clunky for sure
swift tinsel
ye the mental bandwidth is super clear as sub by comparison which I'm down with lol
crystal bone
yeah honestly having more fun as sub than sin in m+ rn
im def goin sub for the taz hardmode challenge
but i like it in most of the keys
also
think im attempting it today
swift tinsel
and if your tank isn't reliably/able to pull mobs into bosses for you to funnel sub blasts off
dense geode
you can swap specs in hardmode
sick sand
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
swift tinsel
and its just baseline way more fun
been playing the tea/rotten/1finality build since my crit was kinda low and its blasting
no nado tho f that s
frail kindle
perfecto is PUMPING on araz rn
maiden oar
priory neck sims better than medallion for me so sad
frozen chasm
I hot the netherprism trinket and Put it in a macro with shadowdance, any other ideas how to optimize its useage?
maiden oar
i want to use medallion i have medlalion
honest dome
I hot the netherprism trinket and Put it in a macro with shadowdance, any other ...
dont macro it into shadow dance
alpine wraith
dont macro it to dance
dense geode
I hot the netherprism trinket and Put it in a macro with shadowdance, any other ...
u dont want to do that
alpine wraith
at most do it to blades
frozen chasm
But it has only 20 sec CD ...
honest dome
and it stacks
frozen chasm
And i have already a on use trinket with 2 min cd
honest dome
then u use it every other blades
maiden oar
and i just default to with prism unless i need to hold prism
dense geode
And i have already a on use trinket with 2 min cd
the trinket stacks should use it as if its a 3m CD
frozen chasm
Hmm, but the effect is linear why Not push every dance with +10% instead of every tenth by 100% ?
dense geode
because 3k agi isnt alot and subs dmg is all about cooldowns
daring tusk
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
pseudo sail
is ticking sack of terror a simbait trinket? i have it on hero and have warpclaw on hero as well but it keep telling me to use sack tho i dont see anyone use it so far (in combo with lily trink of eco dome)
daring tusk
!loot
wicked joltBOT
honest dome
if its simming better for you its not a sim bait
limpid sage
is ticking sack of terror a simbait trinket? i have it on hero and have warpclaw...
Sack is dog on aoe and barely decent on ST
night rampart
anyone else benched in favour of the assa rogue of the raid based on week 1 heroic logs? 
short radish
nah but can't be benched because im the only rogue
also just play better than the assi rogue
ecks dee
assert dominance
night rampart
i miss being the only one so i could just play the gigachad spec in peace
lucid lily
Can’t be benched if you’re the raid lead 
pseudo sail
Sack is dog on aoe and barely decent on ST
Hmmm, so it is simbait then, take warpclaw over crystal of anub?
night rampart
thats the thing, his survivability is atrocious but bigger numbers hehe
so annoying
formal pollen
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
wild hornet
can i macro the cursed stone idol to sblades?
tepid trellis
if you feel like channeling in your blades window sure
wild hornet
oh so its not one of those channels
but where would it be best used?
like before i cast blades?
jagged flicker
Quick question guys, is it fine to pop Coup de Grace outside shadowdance?
void hound
limpid sage
Hmmm, so it is simbait then, take warpclaw over crystal of anub?
Not simbait, just not a “wide” usecase
You can still use it on ST
short radish
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
short radish
so the number 2 is only in sblade right?
it's fine to munch unseen blade proc in regular dance
also i assume sending 1cp double coup is fine outside dance?
wild hornet
where would be the best place to actually channel the cursed idol?
my feelycraft doesnt make much sense
would it be like before flag or before blades
graceful osprey
Comparing sims to actual live dps. Are you all able to remain close to sim dps or is it lower than sim?
swift tinsel
if I'm just whacking away at a dummy usually within a percent or two
hazy breach
The sim takes the average (or well, median) result of thousands of iterations, so if youre hitting the dummy you should be able to beat it relatively often
graceful osprey
Hmmm I’m wondering what I am doing wrong. I’m simmed at 3 mil dps and for sure I feel good during the opening nuke but during the downtime and to the 2nd nuke, it seems like I catch up to my sim dps and then drop
wild hornet
™
hazy breach
Are you simming with raidbuffs
fast meteor
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
graceful osprey
Are you simming with raidbuffs
Ahhh good point. I am assuming sims automatically add raid buffs
fast meteor
sometimes i see the sim do: flag symbols dance tech and then blades after why is that?
limpid sage
also i assume sending 1cp double coup is fine outside dance?
Ya if I’m gonna lose it anyway I do that as well
Also press storm over shadowstrike outside sblades if it brings me to at least 6 cp and I have coup up
But donno if that’s optimal
swift tinsel
you can pretty much send 2nd coup with however many cp you have as long as you cast it before buff falls off
short radish
alpine wraith
ideally if outside dance you bank sht
so that doe snot happen
so you can coup stab coup
barren jackal
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
lucid jackal
Omg guys sub is back
vernal drift
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
blissful yacht
i sometimes find myself without Dance/Symbols but i can fire off SecTec....should i postpone it for next Dance window?
lucid jackal
Being played on forgeweaver
humble bison
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
ahh i see, perfecto 
lucid jackal
and kush
vale pine
nice, both seem to stream
https://www.twitch.tv/perfectogg
https://www.twitch.tv/kushlul
the boss felt good for sub in heroic/normals already
steel zinc
ahh i see, perfecto <:coolpanda:567365506177171468>
This is my call every fight with adds sub fight
So first 3 assa 4th sub if you play rogue on hunters outlaw fractilus assa and last 2 sub or last fatebound assa
most guilds if they have will want to have 2 rogues that blast the boss and do omega cleave onto the adds just are paid actors during the intermission 😄
stiff remnant
Or just play Sub every boss fight 😎
steel zinc
Or just play Sub every boss fight 😎
yeah sure but if you want to play the class 😄
iron plover
!loot
wicked joltBOT
barren jackal
!prepull
wicked joltBOT
Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.
- Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
NOT Recommended- Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully. - Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than1% damagegain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.
fast meteor
!wa
wicked joltBOT
dry harness
BP on 4+ targets ,so always if 4 of more target in Dance we BP? ( sry been a while on sub)
steel zinc
Perfecto cranking
big rouge utility 
he skilled the more slow
hazy breach
Unironically though
lucid jackal
72% perma slow is a big deal on that fight lol
hazy breach
If you dont have a frost mage rogue is the best option
(but also rogues is bigger than frost mage)
Theirs is only 70%, ours is 72%
crystal bone
oh wait hes running crippling?
hazy breach
Ye
cursive vapor
BP on 4+ targets ,so always if 4 of more target in Dance we BP? ( sry been a wh...
Bp on 4+ targets in dance or 3 with find weakness applied
crystal bone
interesting
lucid jackal
Idk why rotten but
dry harness
ty @cursive vapor
lucid jackal
The small talents dont really matter
lucid jackal
ah, is he bping the adds
steel zinc
ah, is he bping the adds
yeah
they need to die asap
think of during farm gally padding first adds
you hold cds for 25sec after pull and then pop off
you also are a paid actor during the intermission
lucid jackal
Did they even bother with sin at all, I feel like sin is probably just better on the fight still lol
dry harness
i was long time gone how does Sub funnel now dmg?in dance u would stil Shadow Strike into evis or bp and out side Dance if more targets we would SS to get combo points for evis right?
hazy breach
i was long time gone how does Sub funnel now dmg?in dance u would stil Shadow St...
It does not
Is the simple answer
It kinda doesnt matter
Sin is the funnel spec now
(technically you get some extra cdr but its not insanely impactful)
dry harness
ok but what i typed is how we should play sub out side of dance if more targets right?
backstab only if 1 target i guess
chrome palm
sub 2+2pc is an interesting profile
frail kindle
Nah
Sin sucks on that fight
Deathstalkers janky asf pretty sure
Well doesn’t suck ofc
lucid jackal
Its only an issue on pillars which U can reset with vanish when u swap back to boss
frail kindle
I think pillars are the least important part of the fight
lucid jackal
So if pillars aren't important then it shouldnt matter?
Its the only part DSM tweaks out on
Unless 1:30 is just significantly better than 2s
cuz u cant play FB sin on that fight
cursive vapor
ok but what i typed is how we should play sub out side of dance if more targets ...
Outside of dance its shuriken storm as builder and bp only if flawless form is not up or with 3+ targets if im correct now
frail kindle
Uh I think 1:30s should be better technically but I’m not sure if matters cuz you end up holding anyway
dry harness
@cursive vapor ty
radiant raptor
guys, when do we want to use black powder?
dry harness
rick just anwserd me hehe look bit up
alpine wraith
big
graceful osprey
guys, when do we want to use black powder?
All the time, every day. In 12.0 BP will be our only finisher
radiant raptor
All the time, every day. In 12.0 BP will be our only finisher
i mean evicerate is prio beyond X targets, what is X?
twilit matrix
!tricks
wicked joltBOT
Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0
During dance: Bp on 4+ targets, 3+ with find weakness
Outside dance: evis is prio, bp only if flawless form is not up or if you have 3+ targets
radiant raptor
During dance: Bp on 4+ targets, 3+ with find weakness
Outside dance: evis is pri...
does bp has prio even compared to coup de grace? on many targets?
cursive vapor
If im correct then you should always use coup if the target is fazed
radiant raptor
oki, thank you!
astral axle
exile is big pissing
strange chasm
Did they even bother with sin at all, I feel like sin is probably just better on...
Caustic spatter hot fix
Otherwise I'd agree
vale pine
guys, when do we want to use black powder?
4+ targets (3+ outside dance)
frozen chasm
Does perfecto spread rupture in adds, or maybe a general question, should sub spread rupture when there are more Targets?
pure jay
perfecto causing fomo
barren wolf
dire pulsar
i m trying to justify rogue being low in sims and make my guild not being mad at me starting the spec + raid leading, and they all open perfecto or echo stream and see him top dmg !
I guess i ll need to play better
dire pulsar
During dance: Bp on 4+ targets, 3+ with find weakness
Outside dance: evis is pri...
i m still bad at this, i like never play BP almost. Does a tracker that tell me to do it can help me ?
young roost
Anyone done kyveza yet as sub?
wind sage
Just be better 4Head
paper tendon
what's better for raid Cursed Idol or Lily, e.g. heroic last 2 bosses?
jagged rover
!wa
wicked joltBOT
jagged rover
i m still bad at this, i like never play BP almost. Does a tracker that tell me ...
The Find Weakness target tracker, shows if you should evis or bp
formal bear
Guys is it worth it to get different colored gems for the diamond bonus?
swift tinsel
nah
frail kindle
i think timing wise the fights just better for sub
lucid jackal
Caustic spatter hot fix
I feel that just doesn't move the needle much with how much worse subs st is in general but
I mean its working for them ig
hazy breach
I mean you wouldnt play fatebound with how many adds there are
frail kindle
you dont care about funnel tho the adds need to die insta
hazy breach
Yeye but they kinda die too quick for the funnel to be massive gains
And the amp is way better for sub ofc
Its still good funnel ofc by sniping ruptures and singular focus from spatter
But nowhere near what you get with scent and stuff in keys
But idk might still be good
frail kindle
yeah sins still probably really good no doubt
lucid jackal
Idk I feel like sub is just cope on the boss but I haven't really been watching
hazy breach
Theyre literally topping
frail kindle
nah this would be a really good sub fight if any
lucid jackal
But the question is if sub is better than sin
frail kindle
plus massive damage amp that lines up with prism and cds
hazy breach
Im fairly sure sub does better add damage
And that seems to be the most important part
lucid jackal
hmmm
dire pulsar
The Find Weakness target tracker, shows if you should evis or bp
thanks
formal helm
just a qq, is the tier still bugged?
jagged rover
sub is probably better consistent add damage. Sin really would only do good add damage when kingsbane lines up
golden coral
!prepull
wicked joltBOT
Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.
- Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
NOT Recommended- Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully. - Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than1% damagegain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.
golden coral
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
austere tangle
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
left ledge
But the question is if sub is better than sin
You would want to play DS sin on forge if this is about forge
But DS sin is buggy as fuck on forge
It’s a terrible experience
Your mark is complete aids to play around for intermissions
You’re extremely restricted in how well you can swap and do damage to pylons
Because for some reason DS just DROPS when they die
lucid jackal
I mean its buggy but its consistent
left ledge
Im sure if DS didn’t have issues on that fight you’d see DS sin
Yeah consistent in falling off
lucid jackal
Neither sub, nor sin do any damage to pillars in that phase, and you can move the DS mark back to the boss after the phase with vanish anyway
left ledge
Sub does considerably more than sin in intermission
Sub actually has decent damage in normal dance windows now
left ledge
And also it’s hard to move the mark back when you go the whole intermission no mark you’re just useless basically
You’re kind of just waiting to be able to vanish for your mark
It’s just a bad mix for sin
If there wasn’t any mark dropping it would be fine imo
Would just be annoying to swap but very doable
left ledge
guess biggest diff is sub can bank sht to blast vuln
Yeah current sub can make sure to have damage for a lot of scenarios
lucid jackal
Hmm so it seems damage amp COPIUM was right 
open depot
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
tame terrace
big dam
chrome palm
Fine just play outlaw
zealous hedge
So i got the dagger from raid what do i craft now?
lucid jackal
A dagger
zealous hedge
another one?
lucid jackal
Is your dagger mythic?
zealous hedge
no
lucid jackal
So craft a dagger
left ledge
Main hand is biggest upgrade
keen dome
Always dagger 'cos it's huge stonks
Unless you can get a big stonk dagger from Mythic right away
zealous hedge
should i recraft? or does it not matter
lucid jackal
What
zealous hedge
can i not just get my crafted dagger from last season upgraded?
hallow adder
you can to save the missives/ench/etc. but you need this season's spark and crests
zealous hedge
aight
mortal bane
I dont know if your watching perfecto, but he is putting on a master class on how to play sub. Just gapping second place. Amazing.
limpid sage
besides the fps loss forge def feels like a sub fight
rocky ocean
rocky ocean
why are keys so dead :/ season just started
I had trouble getting invited as tank healer duo
dry belfry
as sub is it still possible to reset the first dance?
chrome palm
not in combat
wild hornet
should you try to aim to fit your 2nd sected in the same sdance with TFD?
assuming high danse stacks
alpine wraith
aug diff likely
paper iron
alpine wraith
think exile also didnt have forge+prism
lime obsidian
!gear
wicked joltBOT
chrome palm
think exile also didnt have forge+prism
he did
surely i can run this instead of forge...
steel zinc
think exile also didnt have forge+prism
LOL you trolling he had it obvs
chrome palm
so for sub it is also better
holy im about to blast
alpine wraith
well as you might expect i didnt know
chrome palm
we are good on soulbinder too for sure
chrome palm
assa obviously looked better when their aoe was 20% more than intended
chrome palm
do you think they geared outlaw
lucid jackal
I don't think the caustic Nerf moves the needle much, it's more that you want to be able to move dances to add sets
Assassination is still going to deal a mountain of damage on the dh boss
chrome palm
perfecto on outlaw
steel zinc
Outlaw is the play
cursive vapor
Does perfecto spread rupture in adds, or maybe a general question, should sub sp...
you can use rupture outside of cd`s on targets living long enough (just on targets with highest health and that should be fine)
left ledge
Ofc we have 2 good fights this and king
King is still prob a sin fight
Forge would be too if you didn’t have to contract 15 different terminal cancers playing DS sin on the fight
Really not sure why they don’t have a fail safe to where if mark is gonna just fucking vanish off something it doesn’t give you DN
Idek how I structured that sentence ngl but you should get DN back for your mark dipping
swift tinsel
DS and being implemented poorly, name a more iconic duo
left ledge
tame terrace
and outlaw and not being in rwf
drifting fable
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
left ledge
But yeah honestly I like sub right now
swift tinsel
ye sub owns
left ledge
I just think it’s a little undertuned compared to sin
lucid jackal
Really not sure why they don’t have a fail safe to where if mark is gonna just f...
Well ud play FB on the fight
lucid jackal
Or do u mean forge
left ledge
Depends on adds
swift tinsel
I just think it’s a little undertuned compared to sin
st is a bit yeah but can't complain too much. wouldn't be mad if they wanted to throw a mini aura buff or big evisc buff our way lol
left ledge
Yeah def not an aoe buff
I think sub has some insane aoe and cleave rn
Or just fucking buff bp again
lucid jackal
So called free thinkers when rwf plays a spec
left ledge
It’s not an exclusive feature to sub
swift tinsel
ye but hypercondensed burst specs benefit a lot more
left ledge
Like why wasn’t sub on loomithar
Why is sub so bad there comparatively?
It depends how the amps are
Where they are
Just having amps doesn’t mean sub benefits greatly
For bosses like loomithar it’s actually quite bad for sub
Because sub doesn’t have great sustained damage
steel zinc
Forge would be too if you didn’t have to contract 15 different terminal cancers ...
ds is just a pain
bleak night
i mean its probably significantly less annoying on mythic since you are hard assigned one pylon
left ledge
i mean its probably significantly less annoying on mythic since you are hard ass...
It doesn’t matter
bleak night
so you arent actually going to lose your mark in intermission
runic trail
ds is just a pain
Surely they fix the mark vanishing when a pylon dies issue now.
Surely
left ledge
The pylon just poofs your mark
bleak night
that matters a fuck ton
not unless it dies
you just save vanish at the end of intermission
left ledge
Well you want to kill it
bleak night
thats not hard at all
like swapped to echo using darkest night
then saving vanish for intermission
isnt hard
vale pine
i love how sub is played on one boss and guy comes in the sub channel like "see subtlety best raid spec on every boss"
plush roost
Well im behind the curve didnt everyone think itd be both specs on diff bosses this tier?
bleak night
but ds assa wouldnt blast boss nearly as hard in amp as sub does
thats the reason it was played
fb mightve but perma adds up
drifting fable
!cbbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
runic trail
Well im behind the curve didnt everyone think itd be both specs on diff bosses t...
My money is on an outlaw tier
drifting fable
this is so stupid
vale pine
it is ^^
runic trail
If we can't be stupid on the rogue discord, then where can we be stupid? I ask of you this.
left ledge
then saving vanish for intermission
You can choose to do this ofc but it doesn’t take away from how limited it makes sin on the fight
runic trail
I need a place to offload my bad takes
swift tinsel
lol my circular progress aura lets me know right away
left ledge
You still need to ensure DN for pylon
cursive vapor
If we can't be stupid on the rogue discord, then where can we be stupid? I ask o...
paladin discord
left ledge
You still need to use vanish to reapply mark
swift tinsel
if I'm missing the green border on sectech I know its borked immediately
left ledge
You need to do it twice
bleak night
im willing to bet that world first raiders can figure out how to count to 3 and have mark for pylon
runic trail
paladin discord
Yeah but I can't outstupid the mods there. They're masters of the game.
left ledge
Lmao
vale pine
i was tweaking at my macro for 20 minutes
it is def. a very annoying bug
bleak night
like you are vastly overstating how hard ds is to manage, mark was not the reason it wasnt as good as sub for this fight
runic trail
im willing to bet that world first raiders can figure out how to count to 3 and ...
The one thing holding me back from being a rwf raider. That and the allure of the swirlies.
rancid lichen
!up
wicked joltBOT
lucid jackal
i love how sub is played on one boss and guy comes in the sub channel like "see ...
Literally who said this
alpine wraith
but we all know sub is the best rogue spec on every boss
just need to believe
big burst
bleak night
it is in the hearts and minds of those who play it
tame terrace
we all know guy hates outlaw and loves sub and takes any moment to brag about it
i hear he played ret paladin once 🤔
bleak night
infamous ret main foreverguy
scenic oxide
!up
wicked joltBOT
bleak night
sub glazer extraordinaire
tame terrace
based
alpine wraith
also sub is big on 2nd boss if your guild is bad and takes 8 mins
so you can get two 3 min flags into execute
with prism
granite river
what build are they playing on araz? any changes bc adds ?
alpine wraith
some rotten gaming to get FW fast on adds
lucid jackal
I think one guy was playing rotten
alpine wraith
but no tornado
lucid jackal
I think exile wasn't and was just pressing evis
I'm pretty sure he didn't bp at all but I only watched 10-15 pulls from his pov
alpine wraith
maybe that was why he didnt top dmg ethical exile as always
granite river
based boss dam
tame terrace
oh right i forgot i needed to ask this
do i just send prism with cds always
bleak night
ethical rogue gameplay
granite river
amen
lucid jackal
Between rotten, finality, shit seems pretty similar
alpine wraith
just evis
lucid jackal
Just run random talents
granite river
perfecto is also BLASTing
i wonder if exile held prism till 3 mins
or held in some regard
chrome palm
i wonder if exile held prism till 3 mins
they both ran double on use, so prism was always 3 min
left ledge
like you are vastly overstating how hard ds is to manage, mark was not the reaso...
It’s not about the difficulty of mark
It’s about how inefficient it is on the fight
For how it plays on the fight it simply isn’t worth it
bleak night
if it was better than sub it would be worth it, the fact is its just not better than sub on this fight
regardless of mark
they brought the rogue to pump damage into the amp, sub does that better regardless of how efficient or inefficient you want to call mark
or like i said maybe fatebound but thats cursed
plush roost
No youre wrong actually
left ledge
Bro can’t read or what idk man
plush roost
They brought sub because they like the color purple
bleak night
your point is silly
plush roost
Simpleas
bleak night
you're saying its because mark is "inefficient"
left ledge
What are you even trying to argue
bleak night
that is not why its worse
left ledge
Yes
Yes it is
That’s why sin is worse
Otherwise you’d play sin like on every other fight
bleak night
sin does not do what rogue was brought to do as well as sub does on this fight
its that simple
left ledge
Sin would do subs job better if intermission didn’t exist
left ledge
Burst wouldn’t matter when sin does cosmic aoe and funnel in one button
plush roost
I think with change of tier set your average envenom is less damage than it was last season (comparably) so your damage of pressing fok envenom on average will be lower (comparably)
Thats imo the actual reason even with singular focus dam going up during your shiv windows
left ledge
FB is just shit on that fight and DS is borked
left ledge
I think with change of tier set your average envenom is less damage than it was ...
Sure but I guarantee if you run p1 boss dam between sub and sin, sin would gap sub by quite a bit
bleak night
and then sub would double that gap on the amps
left ledge
Maybe but honestly can’t tell since sin doesn’t function properly on the fight
plush roost
Yeah probably to both of those things, sub also hits pylons way better
left ledge
You’re forced to fuck your mark
left ledge
Yeah probably to both of those things, sub also hits pylons way better
Ye I brought this up earlier
plush roost
Also sin has to re-setup on boss during the amp which sucks ass
bleak night
your mark isnt fucked i dont understand why you keep thinking this
why do you think its so much more inefficient to swap mark to pylon
left ledge
Also sin has to re-setup on boss during the amp which sucks ass
Yeah it’s pretty bad for limited time amp
bleak night
with darkest night
plush roost
Regarrote, rupture, kb being strong later into the amp after its over
left ledge
Because clearly you haven’t done it
bleak night
i have played deathstalker on that fight for fucks sake
it isnt hard to have mark up on first pylon
the problem is when you have to go to the next two without it
left ledge
bleak night
which doesnt happen on mythic
bleak night
YOU PRESS VANISH
left ledge
Big brainer
bleak night
THATS WHAT ITS THERE FOR
left ledge
That
plush roost
DN typically lines up for pylons in my experience. Maybe im lucky
bleak night
YOU ARNET USING IT FOR ANYTHING ELSE
left ledge
Is the problem
bleak night
DN typically lines up for pylons in my experience. Maybe im lucky
yeah pretty much
lucid jackal
Yeah probably to both of those things, sub also hits pylons way better
Neither specs are doing literally anything to pillars
runic trail
It'd be an issue if we were running MA/improved garrote
bleak night
and its up for both amps
lucid jackal
You also just pre setup on boss before he's actually awake
Like u setup bleeds while he's immune
plush roost
Neither specs are doing literally anything to pillars
Yeah but at least a single shadow dance is doing more than no tea ooe assa lmao
bleak night
yeah you can run over and set up bleeds while hes immune
left ledge
Yeah but at least a single shadow dance is doing more than no tea ooe assa lmao
Shadow dance is absolutely not joke dps anymore
plush roost
Agree tho
left ledge
With coup up you can do quite a bit in dance
plush roost
Yeah nobody said otherwise
left ledge
Idk why people underestimate non cd damage
lucid jackal
I think it's really overstated how bad sin is on that fight
plush roost
I dont even think sin is bad lmfao
left ledge
But somehow we have an argument that sin is fundamentally worse and it doesn’t have anything to do with DS
Which it absolutely does
bleak night
you still havent explained how though
tame terrace
the real answer is its an outlaw fight, RWF raiders just dont see it
bleak night
we've already proven swapping mark to pylon isnt an issue
plush roost
True real based gigachad
left ledge
The way you have to play your mark makes you lose dps
bleak night
and we've already proven swapping it back isnt an issue
plush roost
Outlaw
left ledge
DS is all about expending mark
bleak night
you dont lose dps
bleak night
you are literally perma expending your mark
bleak night
how long do you think you're holding your fucking dn to swap it
you are maybe missing a single fucking mark proc
not even a dn proc, just a single stack of mark
plush roost
If intermission* is >5 seconds u just dont spend DN and pool no?
bleak night
you just vanish and reapply to the boss for amp
left ledge
That’s why DS shit stomps sub on every fight it is played that isn’t forge
bleak night
you dont have to worry at all about that
left ledge
bleak night
every other fight that doesnt have two perfect damage amps for sub to slam into
amazing
not to mention assa was doing better on araz until we saw it in rwf
bleak night
who knows what will turn out to be better on other fights
left ledge
Sub and outlaw have both been better on heroic
left ledge
Just spouting shit you can look up in 2 seconds
bleak night
could be wrong
left ledge
The amp helps sub more because sin has atrocious set up for it
Because the intermission is dogshit for sin
Idk why this is even an argument
lucid jackal
But there's no setup
bleak night
the setup of
lucid jackal
U setup while he's immune
plush roost
(Jonkibg)
spice matrix
I’m playing Dark Brew all tier you can’t stop me
plush roost
Just simply kill the boss with demise at 35% 5head
left ledge
Bro you know what
plush roost
Thats how it works on these tier 1 delve mobs,
!
left ledge
This discussion is actually straight pointless
Our end points both reach sin being the worse spec
bleak night
when you cant make an actual point other than "mark bad" and then cant prove why mark is bad yeah
plush roost
It is because of the amp
I bet you if you look at the amp window sub is doing 30m dps
Or around that ballpark
And that in itself is mega value
bleak night
first amp watching exile go from below 10 to first in dps
and perfecto apparently did even more damage
plush roost
If adds are taken care of, pylons taken care of, whats left on that fight?
Boss damage
And if sub hits the boss harder case closed, no need to argue semantica
left ledge
Sure, sub hits harder in damage amps than sin
This is true
So let’s play sub on all the amp fights ???
plush roost
Probably will
left ledge
Unfortunately they already didn’t
plush roost
I imagine king and dimensious will be sub fights
left ledge
And probably won’t on nexus king
And won’t on dimensius
Depends how those fights are set up ofc
But if heroic is a tell it won’t be sub
plush roost
For what reason? Sub may solo a platform
bleak night
nexus king and dimensius assa can play fatebound
so the amp might be closer
depends on platforms though
left ledge
For what reason? Sub may solo a platform
Maybe, I’m not saying 100%
But based off heroic and ptr we knew forge was sub anyways
left ledge
nexus king and dimensius assa can play fatebound
Sub bursts a lot harder than fb sin
bleak night
if platform adds are a hard check you almost certainly go sub
bleak night
yeah i just said closer
lucid jackal
I imagine king and dimensious will be sub fights
Depends how important any individual phase is. If p3 is the most important, and it's pure st, you just play sin
left ledge
We will see but again
plush roost
Depends how important any individual phase is. If p3 is the most important, and ...
Ye for sure
plush roost
I just imagine the amp on dragon+king may be enough of a reason to be sub
plush roost
But maybe fatebound is too turbo havent seen mythic obv
left ledge
Again loomithar exists
plush roost
Loom is extended amp
bleak night
an amp for half the fight is not really what people are talking about when they say amp phase
left ledge
That is true
plush roost
Not the same thing and youre being disingenuous
bleak night
that definitely doesnt work for sub
fluid fiber
is sigil of the cosmic hunt trinket on hc any good for sub?
idc about raid, mostly playing m+ so ye
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
left ledge
Not the same thing and youre being disingenuous
I’m not being disingenuous
There are heroic logs that disprove your notions
lucid jackal
?
bleak night
i have no idea if the amps on salad bar and dimensius are enough to bring sub by themselves, maybe maybe not
araz does have two amps though so its literally twice the value
lucid jackal
Sub might be needed for platform damage
tame terrace
sub does insane platform dam
bleak night
yeah his argument was against it being brought specifically for the amp and nothing else which for those fights might be fair
tame terrace
for sure double sub rouge fight 🙂
left ledge
yeah his argument was against it being brought specifically for the amp and noth...
This is my argument yes
I mean it COULD be brought
bleak night
salad bar will be interesting
left ledge
Your point isn’t invalid for forge
But I think DS is clunky and inefficient for forge anyways
bleak night
i think platform adds are gonna fuck
left ledge
Regardless of the amp
lucid jackal
anyone knows? my sim doesnt work rn idk whats wrong
Its good st bad aoe so
Make a judgement call
Wdym Ur Sim doesn't work
fluid fiber
/simc doesnt work
left ledge
If platforms are big in mythic I can see sub for sure
dense garden
i have a question how many targets should use black powder
fluid fiber
and when i wanna do it manually it says my character has no selected talents xD
left ledge
If there’s diff specs that can blow them up
bleak night
liquid swapped to rogue too after seeing echo
limpid sage
can prism gather stacks while the on use is in effect?
alpine wraith
poor exile likely always get ignored
dusk stone
god damn sandbags always picking sub last
bleak night
its ok exile managed to convince them to bench the monk on soul hunters instead of him
hes gaming
lucid jackal
R they still on outlaw or are they on sin
left ledge
Yeah soul is def not sub fight
alpine wraith
sub can be better than assa
glacial wind
which trinkts are we looking for, both for m+ and raid. Bloodmallet says cursed idol and netherprism but i assume we dont want 2 on use? I have netherprism, is there a best stat stick?
alpine wraith
but maybe outlaw is just better
left ledge
Can it? Idk
bleak night
outlaw definitely better but doubt they have gear for it
left ledge
Last I checked sin and outlaw were like 20% ahead
vale pine
!up
wicked joltBOT
bleak night
and idk how much exile plays outlaw anyway
im sure he can play it but maybe better on assa
left ledge
Is outlaw trick or fb
lucid jackal
Perfecto will take any opportunity to play outlaw
chrome palm
Perfecto was fb
bleak night
boss damage
lucid jackal
Is outlaw trick or fb
Adds
bleak night
bigly damage
chrome palm
Everything but the collectors
alpine wraith
adds and amps
lucid jackal
Sub is very good on the fight
dusk stone
i definetely feel more important this patch, it is nice
left ledge
Yeah forge is a perfect sub fight basically
alpine wraith
rogue is always op for prog
lucid jackal
Don't stack rogues
bleak night
sorry rogue isnt a caster
dusk stone
i was competing with our sin rogue in keys last night
bleak night
so 1 only
left ledge
Idk who didnt want rogues
dusk stone
he didnt have 4p but still
alpine wraith
i mean people wont stack rogues but we are mighty useful
lucid jackal
Idk who didnt want rogues
Most of the pulls on forge weaver were done with 0 rogues lol
vale pine
tl;dr good cooldowns for damage amps
left ledge
That fb buff was crazy
lucid jackal
That's my point
dusk stone
tl;dr good cooldowns for damage amps
holy sandbagging from liquid
bleak night
oh theres a rogue for every fight going forward im sure
left ledge
Good damage
chrome palm
Fract does a lot of damage so
left ledge
Atrophic kinda hit or miss
alpine wraith
i wonder if fract lasts a lot
chrome palm
I think Atro works there
left ledge
Is fract environment
chrome palm
The walls might be
left ledge
The whole environmental shit is so dumb
bleak night
i think araz was the only fight with any noticable atro shenanigans
should work on most/all of fract
chrome palm
!atro
wicked joltBOT
Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <
lucid jackal
I checked every boss, the only boss where atro doesn't work is forge weaver
lucid jackal
Yes
bleak night
could definitely be a fb assa angle yeah
chrome palm
and the 5 min fight is a good timing for it
lucid jackal
For pure st there's no reason to play sub atm
Sin just does more
Timers don't matter
Sin tuning is just higher
chrome palm
im talking about other classes
left ledge
It's not like a good kill timer favors sub
Well yeah esp with fb
left ledge
It’s so much damage
chrome palm
its fun because you dont need to play deathstalker
left ledge
The burst isn’t as high but
lucid jackal
I like Deathstalker
left ledge
You just stay up
lucid jackal
Sin without deathstalker has nothing going on lol
U literally just drool on yourself
It's chill but it's extremely mindless
bleak night
they took away every button they could manage since the rework
chrome palm
better than ds imo
dusk stone
me big dam me press envenom
lucid jackal
Ds is fun
chrome palm
they took away every button they could manage since the rework
also this
lucid jackal
I love ds
chrome palm
you just have all of your buttons macro'd together as assa
i absolutely hate ds especially with their new tier
feels so clunky
lucid jackal
The only button they removed was tea from sin
dusk stone
i want DS sub rework
lucid jackal
Sin has always been like, 3 buttons
chrome palm
vanish too
bleak night
er, exsang, vanish as a dps button for kb
lucid jackal
U press vanish on FB..?
bleak night
you macro it and forget it
chrome palm
you macro it to kingsbane afaik
bleak night
you used to actually vanish at certain times for kb
well you might not want to macro to kb
because then you wont have it for 3m
but you just press it at the same time
chrome palm
robot uses it with kingsbane it seems
left ledge
U press vanish on FB..?
Yeah for coins
lucid jackal
It might be pedantic but there's a difference in removing a button like with exsang, or thistle tea, and "you don't play around this button this tier"
bleak night
sure but it leads to the same thing
bleak night
there is technically a difference though yes
lucid jackal
sure but it leads to the same thing
Sure but these are a difference in kind
chrome palm
yeah that is fair, but you could argue that it is similar with tea
chrome palm
you could potentially see tea manually pressed if it was impactful enough
left ledge
Vanish?
chrome palm
in the same way that vanish ma is just not impactful enough to do
bleak night
and then have to avoid dropping below the point it auto procs 
chrome palm
so tea and vanish arent really "removed" they just arent impactful enough to use on their own
lucid jackal
Well no, tea was removed
left ledge
It’s still a button you press to achieve something in cds
lucid jackal
Vanish was a byproduct of how the rotation has ended up solidifying as
chrome palm
cant you say the same about tea
bleak night
well the tea button still exists, so it wasnt really removed
chrome palm
it used to be more important where you used tea
lucid jackal
No because tea as a button auto procs
bleak night
we just dont play around it and let it auto proc
you could play around it not proccing
fortunately we dont
left ledge
Fwiw I think the current iteration of vanish is better than the previous ones where you had to vanish at the end of kb for the big crits
lucid jackal
Tea was never an impactful button for sin is the thing tho, like yes, it was "slightly better" to use it with buttons, but when they made the change to auto proc, i don't even think it simmed worse
chrome palm
were people macroing tea to shiv in amirdrassil
bleak night
Tea was never an impactful button for sin is the thing tho, like yes, it was "sl...
it was impactful when kingsbane was good
left ledge
Yeah I mean I just didn’t like that you needed that ending to be super clear of any mechs to maximize on it
bleak night
kingsbane was nerfed into the ground before the auto proc change
chrome palm
i thought it was more common to manually press it during the last seconds of kingsbane
bleak night
you'd save both tea and vanish to press at different times during kb yeah