and then we are disgusting in keys
#subtlety
dusk stone
tepid trellis
and so is assa
fleet wharf
Assa is more disgusting in keys rn arent they?
tepid trellis
yes
dusk stone
thoughts have been purposed here about it being too strong and getting nerfed though
like the spec itself is just in an ackward tuning position for raid and m+
tepid trellis
sub will still not do top AoE in keys
fleet wharf
If they buff evisc, wouldnt that dtill buff our aoe due to flurry?
dusk stone
with another 10% aura?
tepid trellis
unholy dk and assa exists
tepid trellis
If they buff evisc, wouldnt that dtill buff our aoe due to flurry?
we dont really press evis on AoE
so not really
if anything it would just make us use nimble's target cap
fleet wharf
Oh, all the bp buffs pay off
dusk stone
its a buff to smaller packs and boss damage for keys mostly which in theory sounds like our job
like buff evis by like 33% or something then ig
fleet wharf
Since sec tech is capped at 5, they could also buff sec tech damage too, no?
dusk stone
ig the question is how long is blizzard really gonna let us be the worst raid spec in game
we're trying for the 3peat currently
scenic oxide
!up
wicked joltBOT
fleet wharf
we're trying for the 3peat currently
We are below aug on hero frac. Granted, its week 1, but we are already there
tepid trellis
sub wasent bad first 5 weeks last tier
dusk stone
yes we are in the worst part of the last patch already
tepid trellis
until they buffed everybody else but sub
dusk stone
about at the same point where we got 5% aura
how far into the rankings does flat 5% get us atm
fleet wharf
I feel this time we need more than 5%
limpid sage
Since sec tech is capped at 5, they could also buff sec tech damage too, no?
we'd prob end up in a fury warrior situation, where we're so good at sniping adds that it inflates us on raid statistics
tepid trellis
top mid of the pack
limpid sage
better to buff something that's also outside our burst window
dusk stone
i feel like 5% is something that they might do
but we might just get straight forgotten too
fleet wharf
Backstab buff 
tepid trellis
dont think sub is seeing buffs maybe in like 5 weeks
dusk stone
like we got no clue we were just abandoned and if that situation has even changed since then
i would not expect buffs
fleet wharf
dont think sub is seeing buffs maybe in like 5 weeks
What do you think will be blizz's move? Nerf top performers after rwf is over?
tepid trellis
What do you think will be blizz's move? Nerf top performers after rwf is over?
eh dont think outliers are bad enough in top end
fleet wharf
Up to arcane feels a bit overtuned, rest of the curve looks mostly ok if they are already buffing ret, fire and arms
tepid trellis
at most they take the dead last ones and slighly nudge them
fleet wharf
So we are in a really awkward spot where we are technically good enough on the meters to not warrant further looks for a while?
haughty rose
raid pug is absolutely ridiculous. couldn't played during the week and now i can't find a normal run even tho i'm 690 and s2 aoc and 3,2k rio because i'm not 8/8 NM already wtf
i get insta declined lmao
fleet wharf
U aint warlock buddy
hazy breach
Fairly sure coup is directly based on eviscerates damage
So an eviscerate buff would indeed mean coup does more damage
limpid sage
top mid of the pack
Jesus didn’t know arms was struggling that bad
dusk stone
yeah i was worried about that
tepid trellis
Fairly sure coup is directly based on eviscerates damage
thats why you are smarter than me
dusk stone
we are F'd for buffs really, not more than 5% at a later date
hope for redesign in midnight
hazy breach
top mid of the pack
Subs been jumping up quite a bit as the week progressed, i suspect we will move up slightly more as more and more get tier sets
dusk stone
keys too
tier is massive
realistically like 40-60% should be on 2p +2p which is what 14.5% less overall than 4p
hazy breach
But ye middle of the pack is kind of where we expected to land
dusk stone
so its just bait because everyone on sin
long wolf
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
wild hornet
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
hollow spear
This should outperform Pacemaker in M+ if it sims on par? Or does the sim take dying enemies into account?
hazy breach
It does not take the dying thing into account
shadow lance
@tepid trellis Are you still running rotten talent for M+ ?
shadow lance
Yeah, depends on %crit we got
still quartz
!up
wicked joltBOT
vale pine
the discussion stealthi/eleem and i had earlier
of sub buffs, and what to target
basically, evis damage would be nice, especially if you can increase coup damage with it
and i think buffing secret would help too, because its a good burst spell
dusk stone
until the clones phase to the kill zone underneathe the boss
shadow lance
I'm sure clones are not able to hit dimensius
vale pine
I'm sure clones are not able to hit dimensius
thats another problem too, it can happen on some bosses
real panther
thats another problem too, it can happen on some bosses
this problem is so old i wonder why they havent changed the way it works in backstage. Oh wait, that's because subr doesn't exist kek
wind tiger
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
this problem is so old i wonder why they havent changed the way it works in back...
it is a lot of work to re-design a spell
i think secret should be like BP
without a target requirement
red vortex
!guides
shadow lance
Do you press storm in dance to apply it?
shadow lance
8+ target I would say
dusk stone
what key
shadow lance
@vale pine I think's there an error in the !gear picture. Check boots, colored one are the bonus boots and the crit/haste
!gear
wicked joltBOT
shadow lance
Should be the vers/mastery one from Fractillus
hazy breach
Cant wait until they gut assa and the fotm m+ rerollers swell over into this channel instead 
tepid trellis
Cant wait until they gut assa and the fotm m+ rerollers swell over into this cha...
your job to help them
red vortex
Cant wait until they gut assa and the fotm m+ rerollers swell over into this cha...
even after a season of not playing, glad to see some things never change
tepid trellis
not mine 
odd sandal
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
hazy breach
Idk have to figure out this applying fw business, all options feel kinda ass
dusk stone
well they will like the learning curve thats for sure
odd sandal
hi guys is it possible to get thistle tea to cast with shadow dance but NOT with backstab?
hazy breach
Spec rotten and use storm before dance means symbols runs out if you dont have inev, speccing rotten and using it in dance means you lose a strike and stack coup slower, not speccing rotten means you have to storm a bunch before you send. Tornado solves some of these but only when its up
Idk it all feels kinda ass
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> I think's there an error in the !gear picture. Check boots...
you are correct, will change in a moment
honest dome
hi guys is it possible to get thistle tea to cast with shadow dance but NOT with...
#showtooltip
/cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance
/cast [nostealth] Thistle Tea
idk this should work?
but maybe not, not sure 😄
shadow lance
Spec rotten and use storm before dance means symbols runs out if you dont have i...
I think just not speccing into rotten and get more crit
But yes, it sounds kinda awfull to use
shadow lance
hi guys is it possible to get thistle tea to cast with shadow dance but NOT with...
#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null
You won't use tea twice
tight sparrow
DO i sent 2x coup back to back ?
shadow lance
DO i sent 2x coup back to back ?
Yes
keen dome
Only if the boss has been really naughty
dusk stone
of all the changes that feel the weirdest its super strange to try and do the sub math for how much dance and symbols are worth outside of flag
i lost 2-3 flags on my last priory just thinking it wasnt neccessary
fringe island
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/...
love this
tribal blade
part of the reason why sub could do with some cd management pruning
one way to solve it is make sectec only castable in dance
1 less thing to track
fringe island
Guys I remember an old message where someone listed what moves are okay to macro and which ones aren't
tribal blade
i also like baking blades into dance
fringe island
can I find that somewhere
tribal blade
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
silent ruin
Sec tech doesn't hit dimensius?
fringe island
I feel like dimensius phase one is just hard to hit lol, especially in the soak
frustrating as hell
keen dome
He's a very small large man
Basically a very thin waist. Hence the small hitbox. He tapers up.
tribal blade
blizz with super inconsistent boss hitboxes is awesome
wintry seal
On wwhich key did you finish at this overall ?
tribal blade
iirc he said floodgate
wintry seal
10 ?
keen dome
blizz with super inconsistent boss hitboxes is awesome
Yeah, it is. Dimensius just needs to be like.. 20% bigger and it's fine
tribal blade
Yeah, it is. Dimensius just needs to be like.. 20% bigger and it's fine
i've been having some issues on some M+ bosses as well
the last one i kept ranging myself on was the 1st boss of streets
that boss' hit box is way smaller than what i feel it should be
short radish
bring back 8 yd attack range
dusk stone
On wwhich key did you finish at this overall ?
flood
keen dome
the last one i kept ranging myself on was the 1st boss of streets
ye, same
dusk stone
dont know
keen dome
I've had a few sectec fumbles 'cos of range on stuff too
wintry seal
Ah, okay.
tepid trellis
10
keen dome
The orbs on Araz are annoying, too
tribal blade
bring back 8 yd attack range
YES
wintry seal
Okay huge.
tepid trellis
streets
dusk stone
it can prob only be done on a 10 or higher
tribal blade
streets is pretty cursed as sin
wintry seal
yes, sure.
dusk stone
stuff dies too fast earlier, i got 7.2 on flood earlier but any flag mob evaporated too fast at a 9
tribal blade
my overall is good in streets, i just have to save x2 vanish charges for the music boss
and even then you have to drop mark for an entire add set
short radish
or you could just play sub
keen dome
Street is pretty cursed in general
tribal blade
ngl i'm getting sick of running sin, i want to play sub tbh
crystal bone
i love the trio boss as sub man, getting 20 stacks of damage buff then blowing a flag window
dusk stone
you realize streets is a sub key right
tribal blade
or you could just play sub
i played sub in a streets the other day, had similar overall to stealthi
and it was REALLY fun
trickster 4pc is bangin on sub
dusk stone
fixes a lot of problems
keen dome
Yeah
hollow spear
4p is a banger
fringe island
I don't even have 2p yet fml
short radish
cant wait for 4p
tribal blade
it's a deeper issue when you need a tier set to fix spec problems
but at least the bandaid is holding strong haha
tribal blade
cant wait for 4p
dude it's so much fun
dusk stone
it wouldnt be as good without the 2p portion of it
fringe island
i wanna be a double coup boi
real panther
it is a lot of work to re-design a spell
yeah a lot of work when all og engeneers have left the boat. when new comers have hard time to find the line of code that could let us tag with inter-faction friends in content that is... inter-faction, you know that each little thing will be hard
dusk stone
its like 4x the coups
you get so many
you start getting them outside of any cd after they are all spent
silent ruin
If coup procs n is pressed, then next finisher should be coup or cold blooded sec tech during cd window ?
fringe island
guys I crafted my dagger yesterday using my spark and the crafted gear item from the raid quest, I realised afterwards I crafter everforged dagger, I wrote a ticket and apparently they don't reverse mistakes from crafting, feel sooooooooo fkn bad I'm such a dumbass
short radish
happens
tribal blade
classic mistake
real panther
guys I crafted my dagger yesterday using my spark and the crafted gear item from...
did the same s1. I sent 100 tickets. got the same answer everytime. You think they could have put a different icon on these 2 daggers? naaah
tribal blade
back in 2016 i got the devs to reverse a similar problem i made with gear
because customer support was actually incredible back then
cursive vapor
!wa
wicked joltBOT
keen dome
because customer support was actually incredible back then
Blizz wanted their support to be world class at one point. Alas...
tribal blade
i got given the "normally we don't help out with these kinds of issues, but we'll do it this once"
fringe island
did the same s1. I sent 100 tickets. got the same answer everytime. You think th...
they're called similar names and they have the same icon, I feel like an omega dummy though I'm so behind now
tribal blade
Blizz wanted their support to be world class at one point. Alas...
it really was so good
real panther
play a game with me: "one of these dagger is for casters. will you find which one it is?"
keen dome
Yep
fringe island
play a game with me: "one of these dagger is for casters. will you find which on...
the left one obv
tribal blade
my guild's mage got his spark eaten a few tiers ago
keen dome
First line is now the mega org microsoft have in India, iirc, using templates.
tribal blade
and he got a shitty response from them
real panther
the left one obv
that is actualy the right one xD
fringe island
that is actualy the right one xD
and I still got it wrong in game :))
short radish
play a game with me: "one of these dagger is for casters. will you find which on...
mates warlock crafted a plate helm w1 in DF
real panther
xD
short radish
its a tale as old as time
last season icyveins told feral druids to craft the int staff
tribal blade
mates warlock crafted a plate helm w1 in DF
ok that one's a bit worse lol
real panther
yeah but as pointed out. support was giving a f
jade urchin
last season icyveins told feral druids to craft the int staff
thats a neat way to tell them to reroll boomie
fringe island
this is an int dagger btw
keen dome
Yeah, they need a warning
tribal blade
yeah it should come with a warning
keen dome
"Are you sure you want to craft this as it does not have your primary stat on it"
Or, you know
thye could make a single dagger with two stats on it
real panther
support today is like their dev. all is procedure and strict guideline
its a game ffs
jade urchin
lord knows why agi and int daggers arent shared
short radish
multi speccing is banned
tribal blade
well depends
because some weps are only for either melee or casters
like the int dagger this tier
the special one
keen dome
Yeah
jade urchin
they can separate them if they have a cantrip still
keen dome
Like, you can have special cases
fringe island
dw guys my character is super smart now
jade urchin
they clearly do it with other weapons too
keen dome
but in general you can just have non-special ones be dual
warped zodiac
!wa
wicked joltBOT
sinful zephyr
!gear
wicked joltBOT
cursive vapor
outside of dance we still use bp with 3+ targets right?
vale pine
4+ always, 3 is fine too tho
warped zodiac
whats the max ilvl of the on use pvp trinket
hollow spear
704
gaunt bluff
would u guys send black powder into those packs in streets where theres one 300+ mil hp target and 3 100 mil?
i feel like its looking weird
but surely doing eviscerate is more beneficial for the prio?
opal basalt
man my sims are confusing me
701 mast/vers neck sims worse for me than my 681 crafted neck
shadow lance
Embellish on it?
shadow lance
Crit get a lot of value without rotten
opal basalt
interesting
shadow lance
And you prolly got too much mastery and not enough vers
opal basalt
opal basalt
thats with vers flask tho, so they're actually pretty much in balance
hollow spear
Spec rotten and use storm before dance means symbols runs out if you dont have i...
This exactly has been bothering me to no end lately
restive venture
is sub worth playing in m+ yet or do I wait till midnight
hollow spear
Wait till after midnight
fringe island
Is it well known that certain spells have longer reach if you jump? Like shuriken storm and black powder
short radish
Wait till after midnight
30 more minutes till sub is good 
short radish
Is it well known that certain spells have longer reach if you jump? Like shurike...
bro what are you cooking
short radish
??????????????????
opal basalt
warriors used to jump when pressing ww for longer reach
upper crypt
It works, at least for all the stuff ive tested
charred willow
!guides
crystal bone
10 dawn sub is back!!
short radish
fringe island
stand a bit back from dummies, try a standing shuriken storm barely out of reacha and then try it while jumping
upper crypt
Like go hit a dummy with the edge of something, scooch back until you dont hit it then jump and try
fringe island
it has longer range
upper crypt
Mhm
opal basalt
how do you lot get so lucky
crystal bone
4 pc feels so good
hollow spear
Fire mage gameplay incoming
alpine wraith
man i wish i had it
tepid trellis
eco 
opal basalt
and just get 4p
(admitted, i ran echo splits which blocked me from like all raid loot)
short radish
just get 1 piece from vault
and 1 piece from raid (i did not get 1 piece from raid)
opal basalt
i got fucked by the lootcouncil too
vestal escarp
4p andy 
opal basalt
my main didnt get 1 tier from raid
we still have dimensius hc left tho
maybe i get a curio
short radish
maybe i get a curio
thats my copium
opal basalt
echo took me to hc splits as the only rogue and 3 daggers dropped off of loomithar
short radish
but also
opal basalt
so now i'm sub again instead of outlaw
vestal escarp
sblits 
opal basalt
if my math is right i made like 1.3-1.5m gold this week through splits
took me like 8-9hrs
feels worth it
opal basalt
130k full normal, 350k full heroic. then 30% early bird bonuses and if you bring 3 characters (like i did) 50% more bonus
short radish
pretty good
opal basalt
didnt do dimensius with echo so i only get like 250k or so from heroic
yeah it felt pretty worth it this time around
charred willow
Outside of blades, and assuming you have fazed / flawless form up, at what number of targets is it worth to use black powder over coup de grace? Or is it always worth using coup under those conditions for the CDR it offers / dmg?
charred willow
Thank you Fuu 🙂
slate marlin
fuu are u ready to answer this questions over and over when they nerf assa and buff sub?
shadow lance
Yeah, better make a !command
mortal bane
So I am sure this is obvious to most of you but Raidbots just says armory is broken and cant import. What is the trick to get around this? I have looked and cant find this info.
crystal bone
fuu are u ready to answer this questions over and over when they nerf assa and b...
its coming
chrome palm
So I am sure this is obvious to most of you but Raidbots just says armory is bro...
Download the simulation craft addon and use the /simc command in game
mortal bane
Thanks I will look for the addon and see whats next. However I dont see the connection between this add on the command in game and how that works with Raidbots and the armory. This is why its not obvois to me.
lucid jackal
The armory thing is just slower and can bug out when bllizard api breaks
When you do /simc it'll give you a string that you can copy and paste into raid bots for instant results
shrewd monolith
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
mortal bane
Thanks ForeverGuy I always thought SIMC was just some program you guys used as a hack and not an actual Addon.
chrome palm
Simc is the name of the actual program that raidbots runs
You can download and run simc locally if you wanted to
mortal bane
OK I know dumb but Simulationcraft same as SIMC?
dapper gyro
simc stands for simulation craft
gaunt bluff
!up
wicked joltBOT
gaunt bluff
!cbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
round latch
!guide
soft venture
Is there any condition where you BP instead of spend coup? Just feels odd to press my eviscerate button in a 15 mob pull lol
shadow lance
you always want to use it
^
alpine wraith
coup does a lot of dmg and gives you flawless stacks
so no
imagine bp hits for like 2m per target
and coup hits for like 20m to one target
and around 13million to 7 others
+gives you finisher dmg so ruptures and bps after will do more dmg too
short radish
also cdr good
crystal bone
is it just me or do u never push BP in dawnbreaker
just feels like theres always a prio target
alpine wraith
evis does not do enough dmg to use instead of bp unless you have coup most of the time
if 4 targets and FW
and also a funny thing if you just used sec tech you can tab target to targets without FW with strike
to make bping even more effective XD
as they all will have fazed
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
alpine wraith
yea outside blades you would lose a bit of dmg
although if there are at least 7 targets imo it is fine to use it on normal dances
as you fill cp so you dont lose SHT
and get FW also on some
also a funny one to do if you have a huge pull that will last a bit is to strike sec tech
tornado rupture x4 and 1 evis first if no snd
then you get sec tech back and have the 2 unseens
crystal bone
does coup also give snd?
pseudo sail
Hi ho! I'm new to subtlety this season and was wondering if its a solid idea to macro flagellation and shadowblades togheter sinces they share the same cd 🙂
fallow nimbus
No
They might have the same cd but the sequence use has multiple things inbetween them
lost rampart
Hi ho! I'm new to subtlety this season and was wondering if its a solid idea to ...
If you check out a rotation guide, you'll see that you'll use a few abilities after Flag but before Shadow Blades so it's better to not have them used simultaneously
tepid trellis
@hazy breach triple boss in streets xD
tepid trellis
nah we gave the debuff to me on purpose
gaunt bluff
evis does not do enough dmg to use instead of bp unless you have coup most of th...
its not worth it if theres only one big target and 3-4 irrelevant?
alpine wraith
you will do less dmg but i cant stop you from using evis
gaunt bluff
you will do less dmg but i cant stop you from using evis
i mean overall ofc its less
but its more on the big target no?
which makes the pack die faster if the big one would be last one alive
btw has anyone here actually gotten shoulders/dagger from streets?
do those exist?
im on my like 10th streets run and ive only seen neck, finger and int dagger 😎
solemn lodge
is 2p a big gain on aoe?
wintry seal
is 2p a big gain on aoe?
Principaly mono up, but gain a little bit as aoe.
alpine wraith
which makes the pack die faster if the big one would be last one alive
if this was bfa sub maybe
but TWW sub no
night sparrow
I secretly 5cp evisc while sd+symb
so are we supposed to cast 3 sec tech inside the first flag window every fight ?
3 sd 3 symbols 3 st
with 4p + 4extra sec dance
i guess depending on procs it's doable but barely
wild hornet
being behind in gear doesnt look good in the logs seems
unique nest
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tepid trellis
fallow nimbus
man, if we could reliably double dance between cds
sod 20sec and deepening buffed when?
serene notch
I dont know about you guys but i seem to be better of taking rotten and droping 1 point of finality for keys. Sims better for me as well.
fallow nimbus
it plays smoother with low crit ngl
serene notch
i feel like your opening burst is stronger with grnteed FW really matters
fallow nimbus
got like 21% and storm just didn't want to crit
tepid trellis
im crit pilled
fallow nimbus
overgeared raccoon
glacial kraken
7mil ilvl
serene notch
that looks like sin stats sir, did you get lost?
lusty epoch
why would we use BP on 1-2 targets when Flawless form is not up (outside of CDs) instead of evis? Or am i reading the wowhead guide wrong?
chrome palm
evis doesnt cleave without flawless form
lusty epoch
aah thanks
stone hound
More mastery please.
haughty rose
is there a command for loot and upgrade table overview?
keen dome
!up
wicked joltBOT
keen dome
!loot
wicked joltBOT
keen dome
is there a command for loot and upgrade table overview?
Those two?
sand minnow
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
warm marlin
sub is def good in streets 👍
austere tangle
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
limpid sage
Do you guys roll the new M+ build every dungeon or just the high target count ones?
Because the old M+ build is 3.7% ahead on ST and even on 5t for me
Yet I see a lot of people using the thistle tea build?
warm marlin
im still playing rotten cb
limpid sage
Me too but I see the appeal of the other one on something like priory
warm marlin
thats what assa is for
idk I like the on demand burst of rotten without having to do the rupture ramp stuff
and i will NOT be talenting tornado
limpid sage
Shadowcraft do be annoying to play around with all the coup casts though
tepid trellis
just gotta look at your ShT stacks whenever you cast coup
limpid sage
Yeah but if it’s the hit that comes in at one sec it’s basically either delaying gcd to react or assume you won’t get a proc and maybe overcap cps
tepid trellis
you dont lose anything from waiting until coup is over
limpid sage
No?
chrome palm
any dark brew truthers
limpid sage
you dont lose anything from waiting until coup is over
Won’t you potentially lose a gcd
tepid trellis
not unless you wait 0.8 sec
limpid sage
I’ll try to have that in mind then
warm marlin
any dark brew truthers
limpid sage
any dark brew truthers
How much did the dk pay you
chrome palm
-25 minutes of time and no crest save gear
gaunt bluff
just gotta look at your ShT stacks whenever you cast coup
this shit feels so laggy sometimes
dry plank
not unless you wait 0.8 sec
On what sht stacks we get refund? 6+?
gaunt bluff
like i get the last hit for the reset just as i cast my next global
and it feels so bad
limpid sage
On what sht stacks we get refund? 6+?
Whatever fills out your cp bar
tepid trellis
On what sht stacks we get refund? 6+?
7
hexed sluice
any dark brew truthers
Im wanting to be. It's felt good in casual 7s
tepid trellis
this shit feels so laggy sometimes
its not, coup is just longer than 1 gcd
so you get baited
limpid sage
its not, coup is just longer than 1 gcd
Which is so stupid
gaunt bluff
hmm maybe
gaunt bluff
I will try waiting more to see how it feels
btw does anyone have a list of important spells to meld/vanish this m+ season?
limpid sage
At least make the last hit come in just after the gcd is refreshed
gaunt bluff
feels like there arent that many
tepid trellis
and to wait long enough to actually lose a gcd
lets say you double coup in a dance
thats 2.4 seconds
you still have 0.6 seconds of wiggle room
in the whole dance
chrome palm
Im wanting to be. It's felt good in casual 7s
this was just halls 10
warm marlin
sub's hidden niche is being top2 spec in the game for tazavesh hm
chrome palm
skill issue im afraid
warm marlin
but going into a boss with tfd pot coup 14sht and 7supercharged points
tepid trellis
tru
warm marlin
when ur doing burn strats
tepid trellis
just loot it
chrome palm
i got this too
chrome palm
robot really likes it
warm marlin
exclusively backstab soup trinket
chrome palm
more than sigil or crystal or warpclaw
jagged rover
man my crit has been getting dropped real fast. Going to need a bunch of crit gear for raid playing fatebound as well lol
limpid sage
118% mastery jesus
sweet current
man my crit has been getting dropped real fast. Going to need a bunch of crit ge...
you might have bigger fish to fry bro
swift tinsel
hell yeah 118% mastery
alpine wraith
exclusively backstab soup trinket
it procs from this week affix and other shit that dies insta
kinda busted atm
alpine wraith
yea going full mastery is not the best can confirm never luckyt on crits
but hey mastery set gets to almost 150%
sadly it sucks thank the dr for that
sweet current
i gotta know, with that much mastery
do you just hit like a 10 point evisc and insta kill anything
or what
alpine wraith
nope
finishers hit hard but it is nothing special in the end
losing lots of vers/crit
does not help you get like 70% from flag and also 20% from tea and flawless also gives finisher dmg
so having mastery from gear is not crazy
jagged rover
yeah, I'd rather have some more crit. Probably will end up with some crit gems once I start optimizing for raid prog anyway and drop my mastery some
sweet current
😮
alpine wraith
if you see me play with 49k mastery just do as i say not as i do XD
jagged rover
had a 13mil non crit coup on Big Momma, imagine if I had crit 😭
10 floodgate, definitely too low and I know I'm making mistakes, but man is 4pc fun
spiral sierra
thats crazy
chrome palm
Some people like it
For spreading find weakness
But there are a few viable builds
I don’t think the rotten is recommended
crimson python
First 10 world rogues took rotten
chrome palm
It’s the first week
tepid trellis
ive just been playing around with this, does really good dam
left ledge
Rotmaxxer
jagged rover
thats the same spec I've been playing with my low crit
pseudo sail
this is probably a very common question so sorry in advance but i'm still so confused as to when (and why) you use black powder as a spender in aoe. I keep seeing outside of shadow dance windows, but shadow dance has nothing to do with nimble flurry? sorry just confused
left ledge
Because it does a fuckton of damage
left ledge
And on 4 targets or above
jagged rover
dont overthink it, just 4 targets, hit it
pseudo sail
also inside CD windows?
left ledge
Yes
Unless you have ub stacks to use for coup after a sectec for example
But you’d basically always bp over evis unless coup is up
tepid trellis
prio is
left ledge
(In 4+)
tepid trellis
Coup - Sectech - BP
at 4 or more targets
generally speaking
outside of your first sectech in major cds
shadow lance
Coup - Sectech - BP
Coup before sectec?
glacial hinge
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
jagged rover
during 2nd dance in cds or outside of cds, do you eat supercharger stacks with both coups if they line up or do you prio sectec for one of them?
jagged rover
kk, thats what I've been doing but wanted to be sure that was correct
left ledge
Sectec should always be supercharged
shadow lance
How you prio coup if you supercharge sectech?
tepid trellis
dont SoD before coup
left ledge
If you have coup up first just spend the first coup normal
Then supercharge
As long as one of your supercharge is on sectec you’re fine
shadow lance
Dance > Coup sod > Coup > Sectech
tepid trellis
what i do with coup and sectech sometimes if i see i have alot of ShT stacks ive done this
coup-sectech-coup
left ledge
Yeah as long as you can get the coup off without wasting a ub stack
shadow lance
So you can sod early ok
left ledge
It doesn’t matter that much
tepid trellis
Yeah as long as you can get the coup off without wasting a ub stack
literally that
its just about not wasting UB
left ledge
I try to have the second coup charged in those awkward scenarios
tepid trellis
like coup does so much fkcign dmg on AoE
left ledge
Because I think it does more damage
tepid trellis
its insane
left ledge
But i haven’t read set tbh
opal basalt
man gimme the 4p already
gotta wait until next week
no more chances for me this week
left ledge
But last I remember it does like 50% more dam?
tepid trellis
2nd coup is the fat one
left ledge
Yeah
tepid trellis
yes
left ledge
Yeah dude coup is like
tepid trellis
had the last hit of coup on momma hit for 31mil
shadow lance
I'll focus on that
left ledge
Dude the tier is so fucking good when it procs
When I see my escalating go up by 2
Fkin nut
left ledge
Yeah ngl
I enjoy sub in m+ a lot this season
We actually have some gameplay changes
opal basalt
i hope i will enjoy it, right now with only 2p i feel like i hit with a wet noodle most of the time
left ledge
Although sadly sin still does more damage just for existing
tepid trellis
first boss in eco dome
left ledge
i hope i will enjoy it, right now with only 2p i feel like i hit with a wet nood...
The 4p is very big impact
tepid trellis
did both other dps's boss dmg combined
opal basalt
yeah i just swapped to assa, because i do more damage even with sub stats
left ledge
Dude when you have cds ready and like 10 sht going into a boss
And 2 ub
It feels like the stars fucking align
I’ve bursted almost 30m on some bosses
Just straight fkin juice
opal basalt
outlaw felt very disappointing sadly
then i got daggers
tried sub, felt meh
assa just does illegal damage idk
sullen hare
first boss in eco dome
Was the ret pal afk? Did they turn off divine storm in solidarity with their discord channel?
I have so many questions
left ledge
Assa just does infinite damage all the time if there’s mobs
But it feels very boring to me idk
opal basalt
it is
left ledge
I hate CT play style
opal basalt
i really enjoy sub and outlaw, because they got something special
shadow lance
third boss in priory
Wtf
opal basalt
assa is just boring to me
tepid trellis
Was the ret pal afk? Did they turn off divine storm in solidarity with their dis...
he only got to hit the boss i sniped the adds
on both spawns
so it was just ret single target in AoE talents
left ledge
Sub is such a pad spec though for real
But it’s not our fault
We literally can’t stop it
jagged rover
can't wait for next weeks nexus king
going to delete the platform and make the arcane mages cry
left ledge
We went from a funnel spec to forced cleave aoe
I remember the days of going into ToP as sub and hating my life because everything was 3 targets
opal basalt
man max lied to us on stream
left ledge
Did he
left ledge
I mean it depends on damage events
jagged rover
atrophic doesn't work on any of the actual damage in that fight I think
left ledge
Like last tier rogue was kinda useless on stix
shadow lance
can't wait for next weeks nexus king
Same, did some tries thursday, now with 4p, it's gonna explode
jagged rover
we kill dimensius sunday and I can't wait to shit on the boss as fb sin, that spec does so much damage
tepid trellis
he literally said rogue was unsittable in race
jagged rover
for no reason
bleak night
left ledge
Deathmark is so bugged on that fight
You can’t dm any pillar
You have to constantly be aware of wanting DN up to swap
It’s a very shit DS fight
And I don’t think fb sin is great on that fight because of adds
So maybe if a rogue is played it’s sub angle
frail kindle
They don’t know
bleak wind
is there a fix for the 'spell not learned' bug with cold blood?
left ledge
!cbbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
dry plank
Log off and login
bleak wind
ye apart from relogging
crystal bone
!up
wicked joltBOT
bleak wind
do they have different spell ids the assa and sub ones, and if so can you put the correct one in the macro that way
bleak wind
can you even put spell id in a macro
swift tinsel
Pretty sure
Iirc there’s been spellID ones for old covenant abilities (nope doesnt work)
left ledge
Why sequence
tame terrace
to not double press things
i mean like
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=2 Shadow Dance,null
/cqs
You would have to double press for sequence no?
tame terrace
but two of those
left ledge
I mean you technically can sequence them but if you just macro with regular cast then you can just press dance once
next otter
!gear
wicked joltBOT
winter elbow
tepid trellis
crit
shadow lance
Arak 11
I had to skip a blades cuz I didn't understand what tanks was pulling
Breakdown looks ok?
real panther
there's no rogue in the race to world first... really?
alpine wraith
no good gear from that boss
real panther
not even meta flavors
alpine wraith
rn they are playing for gear
coarse flare
guys so what abilities are fine to macro together? I'm trying to figure out my buttons for this spec bc there are so many lol
shadow lance
and pulled lots of big scarabs
It was
left ledge
there's no rogue in the race to world first... really?
There is
It’s just rogue isn’t great on forge master for a variety of reasons
For example sin would like to play DS on that fight
But mark is completely shit to play on the fight
Because it disappears off pylons and intermission adds
Forcing you to make weird plays around your DN uptime
And FB loses value because of the adds
There’s also quite a bit of environmental damage (I think) which makes atrophic quite bad
The race prob goes to next week anyways
gaunt bluff
is there anything wrong with this macro? i just want to make it so i cant double press it by accident
but i cannot press it even after 1 second
shadow lance
Did you try with bigger reset?
left ledge
Change it to 5
Honest question though
Doesn’t it auto have spam press protection for a short while as is
shadow lance
Tea doesn't
left ledge
Im a button spammer but I’ve somehow never accidentally pressed symbols more than I had to
Yeah tea doesn’t
I know that
shadow lance
SoD, idk
shadow lance
It's more for the backstab
left ledge
What does backstab have to do with it
stoic reef
guys
shadow lance
The rest 5 is when you press dance/backstab on same keybind
left ledge
That was like
shadow lance
So you don't proc tea twice
gaunt bluff
i mean yeah but sometimes i still double press it like maybe once per dungeon
and its just annoying
i cant tell why the macro doesnt work
left ledge
Did you try reset 5
gaunt bluff
yes
left ledge
Can you show
gaunt bluff
i changed it right after u said it
left ledge
Is that the same macro
Saved and moved to the bars
It shouldn’t be doing that
Try dragging it to some other empty action button
Remake, save, drag and click
gaunt bluff
yeah it was the same
i saved another clip
then tried moving it on my action bars like 10 times randomly
and now it works like it should?? LOL
what the fuck is this
golden totem
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
gaunt bluff
nah this shit is so bugged
now it doesnt work again
and its the only spell on all the action bars that behaves like this
i fixed it by just removing the Symbols of Death from #showtooltip
now it works properly
pliant topaz
wait theyre not running rogue at all? lets fucking goooo
sick jackal
wait theyre not running rogue at all? lets fucking goooo
yooo do we close discord?
iron plover
is the 4 piece set bonus a big dps upgrade?
pliant topaz
vat
iron plover
also I saw that there was some kind of wonky thing with the 2nd free cast of coup?
lusty epoch
is the 4 piece set bonus a big dps upgrade?
Yes
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
lusty epoch
@iron plover
Above is the explanation for the second coup
And correct me if i'm wrong, i think i saw someone post that 2-set is 10% dmg increase and 4-set 20%. So very important to get it
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tepid trellis
wait theyre not running rogue at all? lets fucking goooo
rich stump
Did the fix The Rotten bug?
tepid trellis
yes
rich stump
stoic pier
What was the bug?
iron plover
__**Coup de Grace Optimizations:**__
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finisher...
but i do not understand how the 4 set interacts with unseen blade
rich stump
What was the bug?
1st storm used to consumes both stacks
sullen hare
wait theyre not running rogue at all? lets fucking goooo
My guild did it all season in liberation so we were trendsetters
rich stump
but i do not understand how the 4 set interacts with unseen blade
you can't build coup stacks during the proc
coarse flare
Guys what buttons are fine to macro together? Im desperate for more keybind slots this spec has too many
sullen hare
Not a whole lot
coarse flare
Even a couple would be a lifesaver
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
sullen hare
Tea/dance of course only when you're taking tea
chrome palm
ive just been playing around with this, does really good dam
wait this build is really fun
you proc rotten so much just playing around the tier
tight sparrow
coupe prio over sech tech ?
chrome palm
ive been doing coup over sec outside of cds, unless fazed isnt up
gaunt bluff
wait this build is really fun
what dungeon/key level?
chrome palm
just 10 eco
open coral
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
pastel rampart
how do u deal w getting coup on a 2pc proc strike? like by the time the 2nd hit of 1 ub takes me from 3->4 stack ive sent another finisher
better to wait and coup or just coup the finisher after?
gaunt bluff
btw food here didnt work for me to sim idk why
gave me an error
but it's w/e cus im gonna use hearty beledar anyway
scenic oxide
!wa
wicked joltBOT
frail tide
!gear
wicked joltBOT
bleak night
thoughts on this araz strat
pastel rampart
based
alpine wraith
kek
hazy breach
It has a bunch of downsides so not sure
tight sparrow
i dont see any downside
hazy breach
Just like transmitter wasnt nerfed
tight sparrow
playing double on use
hazy breach
i dont see any downside
If you die its gg
Or if you dont have mobs in combat always in keys
alpine wraith
in m+ it is very cool but on raid you kinda play with no on use for a bit unless you have forge or pvp trink
hearty sluice
Hey guys, I'm new to sub rogue and I have a kinda dumb question. I've read through Fuu's Wowhead guide and even saw Shindingg's video for example but I still don't quite get the priority for AoE. I thought that if I have flawless form buff up and less then 7 adds I should use Eviscerate as my finisher for the Nimble Flurry cleave but then I saw that I should use Black Powder if there are more then 4 adds 😅 can someone clear this up for me please?
jagged rover
Hey guys, I'm new to sub rogue and I have a kinda dumb question. I've read throu...
black powder got buffed, its at 4 targets now
jagged rover
forgeweaver ritual forge or signet
hazy breach
Signet sucks ass
tight sparrow
yes forge
vocal pine
which is the best atm for raiding single target ?
hearty sluice
black powder got buffed, its at 4 targets now
Okey, thx man!
hazy breach
Yes you can but it gets worse the longer the fight is
tight sparrow
so what do u think its the best combination
hazy breach
Prism+antenna
tight sparrow
i feel like im keep using prism at 8-9 stacks
jagged rover
I was going to pass on antenna for sigil, but since I'll be playing fatebound on most bosses, definitely trying for antenna with the rest of the raid
hazy breach
i feel like im keep using prism at 8-9 stacks
Well you can just not use it on one set, and then double it and give it to the next one
Especially if theres a damage amp coming up
tight sparrow
is it worth ?
jagged rover
depends where you need the damage
next week on nexus king for example I'm probably not using prism on the platform and sending it on the dragon
hazy breach
Its neutral in sims
jagged rover
instead of the half stacks on both
hazy breach
9 on every blades vs 18 on every other blades is pretty similar in sims, so on actual fights the 18 is likely better since you could line it up with the fight better
shrewd lantern
hazy breach
Ye
coarse flare
Why is it bad to macro sd with symbols? Don't they want to be used together all the time?
hazy breach
Not during shadowblades
Because if you macro them you would either not supercharge your sectech or have to delay your dance
coarse flare
why does that happen im confused
shadow lance
Look
SoD give 3 bonus cp to your next finisher, so you want to use it just before sectech to buff it
In opner, use is really close
But that's the only moment
Cuz dance is 8 (12) sec and sod 10
And some time, you will press dance but not followed by a sectec
hazy breach
why does that happen im confused
Ok so you always want to supercharge secret technique right
And if you use dance+symbols immediately after your first dance ends
The cooldown of secret technique is longer than 10 seconds, so you will not be able to supercharge it
So then you either delay dance (which is bad, because then youll be missing the 60% amp from dance on some globals during blades+trinket+flag)
coarse flare
coarse flare
I think i will make a macro for when i need them together bc my hands arent fast enough to do dance symbols and potion at same time
and then also have keybind for them to be separate
warm depot
when do we replace belt
jagged rover
when sims say you can. For me its been 710~ belts that can replace the disc belt
warm depot
word
lilac stag
@hazy breach did you guys do any mythic yet?
lucid jackal
alpine wraith
what a gamer
lilac stag
My rogue havent even been into hc
What’s your rat? Warrior or?
lilac stag
ah nice. So new main. 
alpine wraith
nice to see more ferals around
i try to invite them to my keys
i liked more the dotter build but i think they play druid of the claw now
warm depot
ya