subtlety

[jagged rover]

daggers dropped from heroic, guild is just having my save spark for potential moth kill as well lol

[orchid nest]

ty

[maiden oar]

i did this and then i was told that we are actually doing soulbinder and plexus instead

i dont blame them bc moth seems tuned harder

[jagged rover]

yeah, if we need the damage then I'll send. Its mostly a play by ear thing at this point

[maiden oar]

i think it sadly looks like im playing sin on alot of fights

so ascendance is my embellishment anyway

[jagged rover]

Same, I started playing fb sin on dimensius last night and it does a stupid amount of damage

I dont have ascendance though, not sure if I'm going to change from ele focus right now

[maiden oar]

is it better than sub

i feel like sub lines up well on dimensius

but maybe some of it is pad on the add platforms

[jagged rover]

it felt like it lined up well, and with 4pc it becomes a 90s spec anyways and has the same line ups

[maiden oar]

oh yea i meant breaking the wall while killing the big guy

and being able to dance all the mass guys

but idk if thats actuall yimportant or not on non heroic

[jagged rover]

I just run caustic and dont target it, classic sin kill the big thing

[maiden oar]

hehe

[jagged rover]

though I did shadowstep the nullbinders before we were gripping them and stunning it

[maiden oar]

so cool

[jagged rover]

I also took the platform spots for drops near the melee add in p1 to keep caustic cleaving

[maiden oar]

maybe fb is the play on dimensius but id be sad if so i like sub so much

yea i think the dances line up wlel in p1 if the adds are hard dps check on mythic

[jagged rover]

sub felt the best on nexus-king and I like it on forgeweaver, but I think sin is better on forgeweaver for sure

[maiden oar]

yeah on nexus king i went insane for 704 main hand

i felt so cool

he died before my cb sectech too or i wouldve gone even more iinsane

[jagged rover]

I messed up my last set of cds during the rings with our movement 🙁

[maiden oar]

[jagged rover]

though I was carrying each platform titan damage

next week probably holding prism for the dragon burn after the 1:30 use

[maiden oar]

yea the platforms were so fun

[maiden oar]

i think i did this but i couldve forgotten

but i think if ur unethical prism on the platform goes insane

[jagged rover]

I didn't want to find a new keybind for prism so just left it macro'd to blades

[lime obsidian]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[maiden oar]

i have blades alone on alt r and prism + blades on alt f

and same thing for deathmark and prism deathmark

it feels good

[jagged rover]

I'm guilty of leaving it on deathmark. Probably change it to vanish macro for FB sin

[maiden oar]

and if you change your mind or misclick you can like

press alt r for reg death mark

and bc its on cd u can go oh my bad and press alt f right after

and u lose nothing

i think something like thats good if u have space

[jagged rover]

I think the only comfy bind I have left for it is one of the mouse buttons. Stealth bar is already kinda fucked because of ambush and shroud lol

[maiden oar]

sad

i have psychotic binds fwiw

backstab and ss swap places in stealth

mb4 builder is comfy for me but i think no one else in the world likes it

[maiden oar]

oh are you mmo mouse guy

[jagged rover]

yeah, though I mostly only use the first 2 rows

[maiden oar]

icic

[jagged rover]

I miss when shadowstrike was a clean replacement for backstab in stealth

[maiden oar]

yea i just have nothing on r in outside of stealth so the swap is consistent but it feels like a waste

[last gate]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[last gate]

WTF

[limpid sage]

Last 2 rows are utility/QoL anyway

[last gate]

yeah its understandable

should i treat symbol as shiv?

like use during bursts and never use without them?

[proven plover]

do u still CB 2nd sectec without S2 tier? is there any point in that?

[last gate]

!builds

[left ledge]

No?

Not sure what that means tbh

[vagrant fulcrum]

@vale pine you incorrectly state Araz' has a three min cd, perhaps you mean three minute usage?

[swift tinsel]

they do different things

[left ledge]

You play around symbols

Assa doesn’t play around shiv

[vagrant fulcrum]

in the trinket list

[last gate]

let me just watch the video or i might be seen as troll 😄

[left ledge]

If cds aren’t coming up with. 20-30

You pop symbols with dance to use sectec and your dance rotation

Otherwise you’re trying to make sure you can fit 2x dance and symbols in flag blades

Sub is all about lining everything up neatly

You do that, you burst
You don’t, you’re healer dps

[last gate]

😭

i just want to do street with ease

[left ledge]

For m+ sub is very lax

Just symbols and dance on packs

Try to make sure you have enough charges for cds

[last gate]

when shadow dance?

[left ledge]

You always dance with symbols

[last gate]

and when shadow blades?

[left ledge]

On whatever pack you wanna do damage to

[last gate]

[Danse Macabre] is it possible to skip this talent? it looks complicated xd

[left ledge]

No

It’s not complicated

You can ignore it for the most part

It’s just strong as it is

[last gate]

in video it says
shadow dance + symb -> back stab -> sectec -> shadowstrike -> spam evis

and the backstab in this rotation it look weird af and my smoll sin brain cant handle

[vagrant fulcrum]

it's better off to take it and play it wrong

than not take it at all

[astral axle]

man sub with 4p feels so smooth and good. wish we did a bit better in raid

[last gate]

the point is i always try to minmax and mostly ruin the whole rotation 😄

[vagrant fulcrum]

for danse it's pretty simple actually, you just weave in BS as first generator in dance both for danse and bc it caps ur cps

there were some truly cursed danse optimisations on 2t in df

i remember kurog lmao

[last gate]

lol

[vagrant fulcrum]

to this day im not sure if a consensus was reached about it

[last gate]

we frag only for 2.5% mastery?

its so fking low 😭

[vagrant fulcrum]

atleast trickster lets us send sectec asap

we used to land it as last finisher

but the clones also had to hit

[limpid sage]

Pretty sure you can get symbol-free dances every now and then with 4-set

The extra coup procs gives so much cdr over a dungeon

[vagrant fulcrum]

this has convinced me to try sub again when I commit to 4pc next week

[last gate]

1 question about [Danse Macabre]
why we throw sectec only with one stack when we can have 2 stack?

we just have to waste our first full cp

😄

[vagrant fulcrum]

i fucking hated how starved we've been for dance this expac

[keen dome]

Hell yeah purple team, purple team

[vagrant fulcrum]

bc of these two

[maiden oar]

i hope they give us the havoc treatment

where they just make the tier set part of sub

[last gate]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[vagrant fulcrum]

your sectec primes unseen blade and gets you stacking a lot of flawless form

[last gate]

got it.

[vagrant fulcrum]

tierset can go crazy and proc a lot of blades for tons of mastery

[last gate]

Yeah i undesrstand now

[vagrant fulcrum]

and you wana fit a lot of coups inside dance

[maiden oar]

also getting it on cd is good

[astral axle]

ya i legit didnt have a problem with the ebb and flow of sub before this but the cdr is so nice from all the coups

[maiden oar]

because more sectechs means more coups means more cdr means more sectechs etc

[astral axle]

also pretty crazy prio

[maiden oar]

yea its so cool

[vagrant fulcrum]

I still have a bad taste in my mouth from BP on st in s1 before the changes

and playing ds on sikran 🤢

[astral axle]

hah i was spared of that merficully xd

[vagrant fulcrum]

ended up just playing exclusively sin from then on for prog really

[vale pine]

ill take a look, thanks

[limpid sage]

Is the shuriken storm optimization only in between coups or whenever coup is ready and you got blades up?

[half comet]

!symbols

!symbol

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[tight sapphire]

i have a doubt... just how many symbols+dance can we actually do between the big CDs (SB + Flag)?

[zealous hedge]

we got any good weak aura trackers ?

[tight sapphire]

the thing is that a lot of times when the time comes to do SB+Flag, i only can do 1 dance in the big CDs window

some guides says that i could do 2 times the symbols+dance and have 2 dance for the next SB+Flag, but i have been practising in the dummy and i find this is not always the case...

[austere tangle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[zealous hedge]

also tha aint working for me

[opal basalt]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[iron plover]

is a dark brew build viable for m+?

[alpine wraith]

it is not bad

[cursive vapor]

I heard its a little bit easier instead of shadowcraft

[dusk stone]

4p done

but now i have 5% haste

rip cata charge

[zealous hedge]

So wtf are the bars for under the energy bar in the middle and what is the big purple bar for? also why did it make my combo points dissapear from under my portrait

[remote eagle]

sub feels pog (flood 10)

[vernal drift]

Guys whats up with thistle tea on sub? We use it for mast buff X2 times during blades right? Cant find any info about it. (Note: I hate it tbh but saw lots of ppl using it in m+ instead of CB 😝)

[dusk stone]

macro it to dance

forget about it

[wild vine]

4p and which trinkets? Still need a good 1.5 to try some sub

[remote eagle]

2p, normal prism, s2 pacemaker, rotten build

[wintry dove]

just got this in a flood 10, 4pc is insane

[dusk stone]

its ok you are only conditioned to believe sub is meant to be mediocre

[fierce lintel]

so 2p is 10% and 4p is 20 more?

[dusk stone]

2p is like 12% or something and 4pc is like 28.5 i think

[limber pelican]

yoo is there a particular reason why to use ss and not backstab between the casts of coup with the 4set?

[dusk stone]

to not waste stacks of escalating blade

[wintry dove]

^^

[dusk stone]

you cant build ES blade stacks while the proc is up

[limber pelican]

ah yeah makes sense

thanks

[wintry dove]

when you go coup -> ss -> coup -> double proc escalating blade -> coup -> ss -> coup it just feels so good

I've hit like low 30s for stacks of flawless form

[lofty saffron]

Is it normal to start each fight with 0 stacks of netherprism? Am I missing something?

[iron plover]

im guessing cold blood is better?

i saw people go thistle as well

[alpine wraith]

idk what db has to do with those

but ok

[solemn lance]

Good to see pallys start to amek a little noise and instantly they are buffed

[jagged rover]

resets on raid boss pull, in M+ you should be able to start bosses with some

[solemn lance]

we have to 300 this ish and fight back

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/for-the-big-baby-mikey-day-saturday-night-live-for-the-crybaby-for-the-big-sissy-gif-18836791 for the ret paladins

[solemn lance]

all 300? of us. do we even have 300

[maiden oar]

why did they listen to them

[solemn lance]

enough of them to affect Blizzard bottom line?

[maiden oar]

i dont like this precedent

[lofty saffron]

Even with stacks resetting, is it still stronger than lily?

[jagged rover]

overall yes, but your opener is weaker because you basically are down an on use for it

[lofty saffron]

Okay thank you, it felt weird not having it on pull but I understand it for longer fights.

[dusk stone]

apparently blizzard rewarded the ret paladin bs from last night

i said it would happen

[frank harness]

cringe ass ret paly's

[dusk stone]

god damn nepo babbies

[wicked urchin]

actually cringe as hell

[dusk stone]

dont invite rets to your keys and reward this bs

[open vortex]

Can we shut this channel down for buffs too

[dusk stone]

dunno

[swift tinsel]

[dusk stone]

holy

okay this is getting a post on reddit later

[gaunt bluff]

wait do u guys know if this really drops from tazavesh? i cant find it in adventure guide

but its on droptimizer

[sullen hare]

it's from gambit iirx

iirc

[gaunt bluff]

gambit has the first one and streets second

[dusk stone]

yeah ok

[gaunt bluff]

thats why im confused

[dusk stone]

i vote we close the channel as a sign of protest of blizzard giving into this garbage

[frosty birch]

Gambit has been dropping gear from streets maybe that's why you are confused

[hollow spear]

I'm not sure that has anything to do with their channel

Arms got buffed by 8%, at least they deserved it

[gaunt bluff]

ring of the panoply gives different stats

than seal of the panoply

[shut ridge]

#SUBSTRIKE2025

[sullen hare]

oh!

[gaunt bluff]

theyre not the same ring

[sullen hare]

you're right

[gaunt bluff]

thats why im saying i cant find the same one from droptimizer

nvm ctrl f helped me

[frank harness]

guys maybe if we lock the sub channel we can also get a 5% aura buff

[dusk stone]

like i said

if they get to be rewarded for hostage taking so should we, no cap

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sour forum]

when are we closing the discord?

[frail kindle]

Bro we can’t even get spared a 5% buff bruh cmon man

[sick jackal]

they said they arent opening until double digit buffs

we need our ravenholdht overlords the close channels so i can play sub again

[dusk stone]

other discords are doing it

[fallow nimbus]

why did that retri whining work?

[dusk stone]

because nepotism baby

[fallow nimbus]

imagine the whole 12 of us going on a strike

[frail kindle]

They were gonna buff ret regardless

[hidden jasper]

Sub feels so nice in m+, then you walk into raid and feel absolutely dogpiss

[frail kindle]

Closing down a discord server has nothing to do with it

[frail kindle]

Depends on the boss tbh

Definitely pretty dogpissy but it’s not horrible on a few bosses

[strange chasm]

Are we popping nether on first cd set

or 2nd

[hidden jasper]

Popping it on first set doesn't really do anything since you don't have stacks

[warm marlin]

can pop on 1st/3rd/5th or macro and do every one

[shell willow]

Madness sub gets no buffs but fire, Arms and Ret gets a buff

[junior prawn]

Cuz we get rework in next expac

[sick jackal]

i mean re and fire mage are blizzards babies

we are like 50 peaple playing sub still

[dusk stone]

first run of floodgate with 4pc

its really good

[sand patio]

Retribution
All damage increased by 5%

[dusk stone]

pressing coup outside of cd's feels super weird

[solemn lance]

Time to start ddos attacks. Stealing style

Stealth

[zealous hedge]

How tf do move this

[swift tinsel]

omnicd

under Dungeons - Extra Bars

[zealous hedge]

thank you holy crap

[gaunt bluff]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

🫡

[zealous hedge]

Is that find weakness tracker still good?

[solemn lance]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[gaunt bluff]

does anyone know if the opener/prio list changes if im playing with the rotten/inevitability?

builds sim similarly for me so i wanna try it once

[hazy breach]

It does not

[oak grotto]

We still dont want any haste right?

Cause I simmed and it told me to use hastering

[swift tinsel]

typically want to avoid haste but if its that much of an upgrade might be worth

[oak grotto]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/r8pcnmhWyjNjQxQyGDJWxj Mind taking a look?

[lilac stag]

You’re at the start of a season. Ilvl tends to win out

[oak grotto]

Yeah but it's crit haste

[swift tinsel]

yeah, it looks like its replacing your jastor so its swapping some haste for slightly more haste

[lilac stag]

It wants to take the crit ring

[swift tinsel]

yep

[oak grotto]

Yeah I lose the mastery aswell

[lilac stag]

That’s not a haste ring

[oak grotto]

Sorry, Crit ring with haste secondary

[lilac stag]

Dropping CB for Tea increases crit

[swift tinsel]

they have db

cb

[oak grotto]

I use CB

Not Tea

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[lilac stag]

I can’t see it out mobile easily. Sorry

Try adding a crafted crit/mastery ring and see which it prefers

[swift tinsel]

the bigger crit plus 15ilvl makes sense to want that

for the robot

[oak grotto]

Yeah but does crit increase chance for Crit only? Or also increase crit damage

[tepid trellis]

chance

[oak grotto]

I mean I lose like 30% mastery

And therefore I feel like I kind of need tea to balance it out, no?

Or am I just bad at sub

[tepid trellis]

sim number up = good

[oak grotto]

So fuck the stats and listen to the robot

[tepid trellis]

correct

[oak grotto]

But do I need to swap to Tea to balance it out?

[tepid trellis]

sim it

if in doubt, sim it out

[alpine wraith]

yea only thing that was big before the super DRs came into play was mastery=m ore aoe

but now not even

just get bigger number in sim

[oak grotto]

As so is Mastery not as important anymore

[tribal blade]

but we're playing wow, not the sims

[tepid trellis]

wrong

[warm marlin]

but prophet, the sim plays the game 100 thousand times

therefore it is infallible

[desert bolt]

I feel like im playing good in this raid, but Im logging so poorly atm xD love it

[alpine wraith]

loggin as sub will be super hard

not many people then the ones that have 4p prism etc do a lot more dmg

[desert bolt]

Gothca. How is sub performing in mythics? havent touched wow since s1

[lilac stag]

It’s easy when you play assa. Just put ilvl on and the golden child is happy.

[tribal blade]

haha so the robot is a bigger degen than us

[lilac stag]

It’s fine. It’s not Assa.

[tribal blade]

heehee

is this how many ret players there are

[desert bolt]

Nothing compares to assa rn it seems xD

[tribal blade]

that is a crazy amount of reactions

or fire mages also reacting

[lilac stag]

If we closed this part of the server down no one would notice

[alpine wraith]

we are like 12 people

[tribal blade]

i didn't realize you could hit numbers like that in a class discord

[desert bolt]

thats crazy

[sly cove]

12 terribly sad people at that.

[alpine wraith]

not really we just know what happens here

i expect deathstalker to get buffed

twice

just to spite us

[haughty mural]

13 people atleast

Id rather roll sv than play deathstalker

[alpine wraith]

i want them to nerf it for sub again

just in case

[haughty mural]

[dusk stone]

Rework and fix eviscerate in DS. Hell just make it work with BP then it's fine

[humble condor]

is my damage breakdown okay? i seem to struggle with aoe dps and prolonged ST fights with this class. i am new to it. Any tips / guides you can recommend that would be beneficial to me thanks

[dusk stone]

What content is for this for

[humble condor]

mythic plus

ara kara +9

[swift tinsel]

unless your tank was pulling really small thats' low bp damage

[dusk stone]

Are you doing the opener properly and getting 16 gcds in your shadow dances during flag

[lilac stag]

That lock decimated you. Press BP more. Likely holding CDs too long

[humble condor]

he wasnt pulling too small. i was not casting it till like halfway through. cause i was like why tf am i not doing aoe dmg

[formal gull]

i have the same issue with bp we are using bp in 5+ target?

[swift tinsel]

4

[formal gull]

ok ty

[swift tinsel]

in and out of blades

[humble condor]

4+ you use black powder?

interesting

[swift tinsel]

yep

[humble condor]

okay

[swift tinsel]

you still coup but yeah, bp on 4 targets (or 3 FW debuffs but just stick with 4)

[formal gull]

and in 4+ if i'm under shadow dance i always shadowtrike if i'm not i shuriken right?

[swift tinsel]

yep

[humble condor]

not to sure, i was going shadowstrike > flag > rupture > > symbol > backstab > shadowblades > secret technique

[formal gull]

ok ty boss!

[dusk stone]

What are you doing after that

The guide on wowhead also exists if you're not using it

[humble condor]

shadow strike until 6+ combo then evis

[dusk stone]

What build are you using

[humble condor]

granted i didnt know you're supposed to use BP after 4 targets. so i didnt use that.

thistle tea. i had energy issues using the cold blood

prolly cause im new at spec

[dusk stone]

No, what build in the sub tree

We all take the same talents in rogue tree

[dusk stone]

Don't use the bottom right talent and swap to the rotten on bottom left it guarantees FW

Which is really important

[swift tinsel]

eh

[dusk stone]

Every symbols = crit builder = FW

[humble condor]

finality? most builds i see have this

[swift tinsel]

kinda with eleem where I'm not 100% sold on needing rotten

esp if finality is bugged to buff every bp

[dusk stone]

Finality is a good talent but it's harder to use right and less Intuitive

[swift tinsel]

huh

you don't think about it ever

[dusk stone]

You think about FW tho

[swift tinsel]

barely

[dusk stone]

You're also not new

[humble condor]

what is FW? sorry noob lol

[dusk stone]

Find weakness

[swift tinsel]

but you're suggesting a build that that you do have to play around vs one you don't

with finality you literally put no thought into it

[humble condor]

granted i have to BP more. should i be taking "deeper Daggers" Evis and Bp increase shadow dmg done by 8%

[dusk stone]

It might also be your uptime

[dusk stone]

Fair ig I just think in terms of when to track FW and it just seems harder when you're choosing to use storm for it specifically

[humble condor]

also kinda noob question. Do i hold symbols to rip with a shadow dance / vise versa? only pop them together?

[dusk stone]

Yes and no

Shadow dance gets cdr from combo points spent

[humble condor]

ive been trying to hold them for secret technique too. but i feel like thats counter intuitive cause youll lose dps holding cds

[dusk stone]

So there are instances when you have an extra symbols but no dance

Also try and make sure you have 1.6+ dances when you're about to use flag

You get 1-2 dances between flag windows, a bit more this patch specifically

[humble condor]

dumb that down. 1.6 of what lol?

[dusk stone]

So you don't need two full dances when you're about to go into your flag window

You only need about 1 and then most of the recharge for the 2nd

[humble condor]

oh i get ya. have 1 full and one roughly 20 seconds off

either of you Zorn or Haptic available to join up in game quickly?

[dusk stone]

Sorry not atm

I can later

[humble condor]

are you US? or EU

[dusk stone]

US

[humble condor]

kk. the guide on wowhead with the opener and continued rotation. is that fairly accurate?

[dusk stone]

Your knowledge seems fine

Just need more pulls from how it sounds

And use bp more

[humble condor]

im not a dumb player lol. i was almost 3.7k last season with feral. just completely new to rogue / sub

[dusk stone]

Sub is a pain when you're new

[humble condor]

forsure, i appreciate the help none the less

[dusk stone]

I started last season and didn't get it for a month or so

[humble condor]

i also dont have any tier on this guy. so i am not sure if that plays a factor. esp cause its coup de grace

[hazy breach]

New tier is bonkers

[humble condor]

i read somewhere you just rip coup de grace even if you have like 2 combo points

[dusk stone]

Tier is huge increase

[hazy breach]

Yes

Since its +5 cp its technically a 6 or higher

[solemn lance]

Is 5 million overall reasonable without any new tier for 8 flood or 8 prio

[humble condor]

would it count for 6 CP on flag too in that case i wonder

[hazy breach]

Yes

For cooldown reduction too

[warped zodiac]

do we supercharge the free proc of coup or still only do it for secret tech

[humble condor]

thats pretyy legit

[hazy breach]

Supercharging sectech always

[dusk stone]

Tier helps a lot, I got 6.7 earlier with it but a good parse is around 8mil atm

[hazy breach]

30% aint enough to make the second coup worth it

(since it doesnt work on shadowed finishers its closer to 30%, not 50%)

[solemn lance]

Definitely will have some optimizations after rereading a few items in the guide. Blasted a 22mil dps on one of the trash pulls

[dusk stone]

Yeah it's really good

[humble condor]

i'll get there. just need the practice lmao

[dusk stone]

I kinda sandbagged for my parse had a sandbag lock as well in the group and still got that 6.7 so

[humble condor]

do you fan of knives with 3+?

[hazy breach]

You always strike, you'd shuriken storm over backstab at 3+ or more

[humble condor]

right, okay

[left ledge]

you need a lot more bps

for prolonged ST you just need to master the fundamentals of sub rogue's cooldown management

all your damage is in your cooldown windows

so if you cant squeeze out all your juice in those 20 seconds

you're kinda cooked

get used to your downtime rotation

make sure each dance is putting out the most possible damage, make sure you dont waste UB procs, make sure your sectec is always buffed

outside of dances you're kinda just sitting there spreading ruptures and maybe throwing out bps, you just need to get used to the spec's tight windows

[bright sundial]

for aoe do we storm once or twice to spread fw then spam ss?

[dusk stone]

Depends

If you're using the rotten you only need 1

[jade urchin]

do we just send netherprism in with shadowblades in macro always?

these damage amps are all bit cringe lasting like 5 seconds

[alpine wraith]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/sub.webp

[tight sparrow]

is there any bug or anything ?

im gapping everyone in keys

[hidden basin]

how good is sub in raid and m+?

[tight sparrow]

using double on use

lilly + prism

[potent relic]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[alpine wraith]

i mean having prism puts you in top percentile

same as having 4p

most of us are 0p with welfare on use HoC

or at most lilly/pvp trink

[tight sparrow]

1st cds sending lilly till stacking prism

and rotate

[alpine wraith]

yea kinda

[remote eagle]

robot says double on use is worse for me

got lily and normal prism

[alpine wraith]

on m+ it is quite better because of how dmg on pulls work

on st you need the special APL

so it does not mess up prism

[dusk stone]

Wait is shadowdust back

That resembles a spreadsheet

[alpine wraith]

no you just press trinket 1 or trinket 2

i mean it is my sheet just a part of it

[remote eagle]

but yea prism seems busted when you stack it

might test lily with it

[alpine wraith]

i would not use lilly becasue you kinda miss 1 use

[hazy breach]

You can also just not use prism for one blades and it will be doubled the next time

[alpine wraith]

a passive would be better most of the time

that

[remote eagle]

for sure, just no luck with pacemaker yet

[hazy breach]

And ye sub is really good in keys

[alpine wraith]

sub with gear manages to do strong enough burst

[hazy breach]

Just overshadowed by assa being an absolute menace gapping literally every spec by 15%

[alpine wraith]

that the wang weak times are not as bad

yea that is funny

bad st?

pull shit onto boss

[remote eagle]

yea felt good doing 4 mil more than random boomkin andy

[alpine wraith]

only downbreaker and few others sub is kinda big vs assa

[remote eagle]

xD

[alpine wraith]

and even then

[remote eagle]

i'd say streets is sub key too

but idk, i dont touch assa

[alpine wraith]

oh streets yea

if only halls and priory didnt have all those huge pulls

where assa can gap sub hard

they have some bosses only arenas

[dusk stone]

Dunno

One of us got like 40mil trash pull a day or two ago if we can consistently do that

[remote eagle]

easy with some good gear

[dusk stone]

Has anyone tested DS sub in keys at all

[remote shuttle]

lul seems 5% not enough for retri

so glad that we never lose hope

[remote eagle]

if we closed the channel we'd get deathstalker buffs

[remote shuttle]

XD

BP +33%

[dusk stone]

I'm fine with that

Close the channel and give me DS sub

[remote shuttle]

man... i played sub when was really down but still tried to keep up

[remote eagle]

nah i have enough ds bullshit while playing pvp

[dusk stone]

It's day 4 of rtwf, when is liquid gonna pull the raid? When echo kills dimensius

[dusk stone]

Same

[remote shuttle]

ye and thankfully we always have people here to help, no matter bad or good times, and that's good

[gritty tartan]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[strange chasm]

hmm no more rogues in ID comp

just for boss with dagger

[wind sage]

is it trolling to play sub for prog

[solemn sonnet]

No

[humble condor]

@dusk stone @swift tinsel this better? dmg was still low ovr but i was getting those BP's out much more

[dusk stone]

Something else is wrong

Priory should be 4.5+ with 693

Do you have any tier

[humble condor]

i can get 2 set rn

[dusk stone]

Do you have last seasons tier

[humble condor]

no sir

[dusk stone]

I think you should log a key and link it either in dm or here so we can see what's going on

That's a pretty based comp for sub

A Sim would help too, right now we just don't have enough Info

3mil is low even for last season

[humble condor]

i can attempt a sim

when simmim for whole dungeon. you do dungeon slice? or 5 targets for 5 min?

[dusk stone]

No just 5 min patchwerk

[humble condor]

5 target or 1?

[dusk stone]

1 target just to get a baseline

[humble condor]

kk i did it without lust and flask & food on. no other buffs though

[dusk stone]

Post the link here if you would

So we can see details

[humble condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nnCPuTXHv1yc4X1UtuB2SC

[dusk stone]

Stat distribution seems fine, your haste trinket is useless the rest is fine

[remote rapids]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[humble condor]

yeah its pretty odd

it honestly must be just bad synergy between my cd's i cant think of anything else it could be

[dusk stone]

How in the world do you have a 2mil sim

[humble condor]

lol

fuckin beats me lol

[dusk stone]

Did you have skyfury, battleshout and etc raid buffs on?

[humble condor]

no

took all those off

[dusk stone]

Oh, put on the raid buffs you'd have in a comp minus bloodlust

So skyfury, battle shout, mystic touch and mark of the wild

[humble condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wrNZG6idg49faxKYfbyfRj

[alpine wraith]

get the pvp trink or lilly

you have no on use for some reason

[dusk stone]

It's a new toon I think

My gear is trash and I'm at 3.7 sim

Yeah there we go it looks more sane now

Tier was like 500k for me and prob a mil overall if no 2p as well

Get tier ASAP if you can to start, get a new on use trinket and avoid haste, it has half the value of other stats

[humble condor]

roger that

i have +8 Eco imma run rn for lily

[dusk stone]

So for m+

When the tank is gathering are you spreading rupture while you wait or how's that go

[humble condor]

should i be?

[dusk stone]

So unlike other classes we have tricks of the trade, it allows you to give all of your threat to the tank

[humble condor]

cause i havent, i just tend to slow dps and just build CP before i "burst"

when i get that on use trink. i assume macro into shadow blades?

[dusk stone]

Essentially as soon as the tank has tagged a mob You can use storm and spread rupture to all mobs the the tank is pulling

Yes to the trinket

When he's done gathering hit your stuff and go to town, rupture gets ALL of your damage amps and you're spreading it two dots at a time

[humble condor]

ah so i should take talent that lets me spread it to 2 targets lol

but that sounds reasonable. to spread dots as the tank grabs aggro of everything

[dusk stone]

I think you showed me that you had it in your tree

[humble condor]

i did not

i do now

[dusk stone]

I sent you a video from a sub rogue in floodgate, it may help

[jade oasis]

why is it so low

[dusk stone]

No raid buffs we sorted that bit

[swift tinsel]

no tier set, no on-use

[jade oasis]

oh

[dusk stone]

Didn't realize raid buffs were 700k dps now

[hollow thorn]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[still quartz]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[lofty tundra]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[half comet]

!!fuu

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[half comet]

you only do the shuriken storm in between coups in cooldowns specifically?

not solo dances

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[zinc glade]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/sub.webp

[steady dune]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[drifting kiln]

just a heads for the the wowhead guide creator 🙂

im assuming its meant to be "use the below"

[rocky ocean]

so everyone got buffed except sub correct?

[drifting kiln]

from wowhead

so 1.88% gain according to the wowhead spreadsheet

[sour sun]

should nimble flurry be beneath my black powder in aoe on details? and sectec for that matter?

I feel like im doing the things right but maybe im just stupid

[steady dune]

check the top ranked parses

the pull pattern is probably different, but you should be able to get a general idea of the damage profile

[sour sun]

kk ty

[honest yacht]

Just got netherprism last night. are there any reason not to macro it to shadow blades?

[rocky ocean]

You tend to lose that first stack at the beginning/after wipe but it doesn’t matter much

[honest yacht]

Okay, then I'll just macro it. Thanks for the reply

[muted agate]

mages need that buff guys

[pastel rampart]

tru they did

[dry plank]

What?

[warm marlin]

@lucid jackal yet another fight where rogue buff isn't useful

[wicked urchin]

rip rogue

its joever forever im deleting my character

@warm marlin how many keys you at for the week?

[warm marlin]

like 35 10s

[wicked urchin]

im at like 20 and i want to die

684 gloves still

[warm marlin]

ive seen 7 rings drop in db today

just need both of them + tazavesh neck and i get to log out

[lucid jackal]

Its the only fight where it doesnt work

I checked

Every other fight its equal to or better than dev aura

[warm marlin]

ok sure but the point was that you're not dropping pala because its slightly worse than rogue buff

but you do get these kind of scenarios

[wicked urchin]

at least i got trinkets

[brave moth]

Anyone can link me the pre-season sims for all classes ?

With the 2p and 4p dps gains

[cosmic viper]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

good morning chat, how was the patch for you so far

[short radish]

its so jover for rogue, not brought to forgeweaver

actual optional optional raidbuff

[keen dome]

Patch good. Rogue funny. Ass big. Sub purple. Needs more purple. 10% more purple.

[vale pine]

purple needs to change to a shadowy black

[keen dome]

I'm excited to get the 4p, it seems extremely fun.

[sour sun]

how gimped am i by my 20% haste I wonder

[jagged rover]

only took 11 hours of M+ today, finally got pants to drop. 4pc time and more sub keys

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[short radish]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/sub.webp

[bleak night]

i got 4p today too, looking forward to some double couping

[keen dome]

I need to kill Soulbinder today on heroic (Which, well, he's a trash mob of a boss lmao) and if I get tier, I get 4p

if I don't get tier, uh...... I guess it's Soul hunters.

[warm marlin]

in assa prison, but like guy am ascending to actually enjoy all 3 rogue specs

[keen dome]

Best way to be, play it all. Master it all.

[bleak night]

r1 multispec freakazoid rogue

[keen dome]

Because then you unlock the most powerful ability: complain about it all

[jagged rover]

ngl, fatebound is so chill and just does a stupid amount of damage

[bleak night]

soon you will ascend to salmon

[jagged rover]

though I have no crit for it right now lol

[warm marlin]

lukewarm take im sure but why is ds the aoe tree and fatebound the st one

mark is not annoying at all in st and marking one opponent to take down makes way more sense as a st tree

[bleak night]

[jagged rover]

its technically the funnel tree

[bleak night]

tree thematic is killing one dude but most of the talents are aoe

[jagged rover]

my goliath damage in 10 gambit for example

just DS funneling into it

[tulip gorge]

When is the sub discord going to get closed for buffs?

[bleak night]

rogue sat on 2/4 mythic bosses so far time to lock the discord

where buffs

[warm marlin]

better than most of the other melee

[bleak night]

fr

actually cursed tier for melee ig

go next

embrace wizard supremacy

[warm marlin]

👨‍🦯 blizzard watching ele/sp/warlock/mage/dev just decimate all the melee

[jagged rover]

tbh for liquid, its mostly about getting gear to certain characters on early bosses, not the best damage comp

until they run into an issue

[dusk stone]

got 4pc keys feel very good with it

[bleak night]

that just means that wizards are what they want on later bosses which kind of proves the same point

[vale pine]

i don't have it yet

[warm marlin]

its ok tho melee pops off on the burst cleave bosses so its still fine

wait

thats ranged too

and then they add spread cleave

[dusk stone]

i equipped haste to get my 4pc, i feel dirty

[bleak night]

[dusk stone]

went from about 5.3? in FG to almost about 6.5 after on a mid run its a very strong set and it feels super good with room to optimize

[short radish]

because rogue is a forgotten ginger bastard child atm

we had our rework in dragonflight

time to sit for another 2 expansions

[hollow spear]

Surely their improved strategy for tomorrow will involve bringing back rogue

[warm marlin]

i mean they're talking about bigger boss dmg in a big aoe fight

ds sin looking juicy

[hollow spear]

Imexile coming on dh

The show must go on playing on Kush's stream, fitting

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

i mean everyone knew rogue is one of the specs/classes you can skip on

subtleties "no parry" would probably have kept rogue palyed

too bad blizz did not want to see sub played ^^

[short radish]

devs aren't beating the allgeations of being spawncamped by a rogue in vanilla and still holding a grudge

like how the fuck fire mage gets a random 4% buff

[vale pine]

i think its simply a information problem

[warm marlin]

i mean its well known mage receives preferential treatment

[vale pine]

there is a lack of tooling to be able to meaningfully balance things

and they lack devs to iterate over classes and specs in need for more updates

which leads to what we see a lot this xpac

to just "wing it"

some classes/specs are the clear winners of this approach

[short radish]

i dunno they still have enough data to see the massive skew at the bottom

[vale pine]

others can eat dirt so to say

[hollow spear]

I don't know if it's the lack of information and updates

It's numbers right now

[short radish]

like at this point it has to be intentional

when everyone and their monkey can see clear winners and losers

[rocky ocean]

dirt is yummy indeed

[hollow spear]

Ranged has intrinsic advantages in some situations which you cannot change by updating melee

[vale pine]

in the end yes

but also no

[hollow spear]

And ranged has better numbers right now

It's not that deep

[rocky ocean]

shuriken toss damage increased by 89000%

[vale pine]

if you compare classes or specs you often see big diffrences in how well developed their trees are

a lot of DF trees are still in need of a lot of work, and some specs need updates to be able to compete in certain content types

[hollow spear]

I don't think you can extrapolate from sub to other melee

It's just that nobody cares for sub

[vale pine]

XD

thats like saying

[hollow spear]

And warrior, apparently

[short radish]

yeah but warriors bring a useful buff at least

[vale pine]

you can't complain about car manufacturing

[hollow spear]

True

[vale pine]

if you can't drive a ferrari

because who cares about a vw or a audi

nobody cares about them

[hollow spear]

I say you can complain about sub rogue and don't have to make it about all melee

[vale pine]

its not even all melees

[hollow spear]

And right now it's most melee

[vale pine]

its like many classes

[short radish]

nah

DKs are eating well

[vale pine]

like warrior

[short radish]

enhance are also above average usually

[vale pine]

a lot of their nodes in the tree are boring asf

dk did recive a lot of updates

so ye

[short radish]

ww/feral gets forgotten a lot though

as bad as sub has been

[vale pine]

checks out, they are good because they got updates

[short radish]

feral was kinda forgotten for like 5 expansions

[hollow spear]

I don't know

We are whining about updates rn

I don't need updates to trickster sub

[short radish]

thats been the running theme of the expansion

[vale pine]

think of it this way

[hollow spear]

I need 8% more single target

And that's it

[short radish]

thing is though

[hollow spear]

I like how we play

[short radish]

our gameplay is fine

[vale pine]

assassiantion was as good in m+ as subtlety was

[short radish]

we just lack tuning

[vale pine]

but was not played

[short radish]

and they dont want to turn those knobs

[warm marlin]

15% to eviscerate

[vale pine]

10.2 did focus all effort on updating the spec to be rly good in m+

ever since 10.2

[warm marlin]

black powder 📉

[vale pine]

all we play in m+ is asssassiantion

[hollow spear]

I think you're just over complicating things fuu

It's not so deep

[vale pine]

so, if dev time is spend on a spec to iterate over it

you see issues fixed

[hollow spear]

And what is our issue rn?

We suck at st

That's it

[rocky ocean]

Nah fuu is focusing on the real stuff

[vale pine]

our issue?

we have a lot of dead nodes in the tree

[limpid sage]

Our issue is that we don’t whine enough

[vale pine]

we haven't had our aoe fixed

[short radish]

our issue is we don't whine loud enough due to lack of noise

[vale pine]

our entire design is overly punishing and complicated

[hollow spear]

I hate this notion that whining in discord will change things

It doesn't

[limpid sage]

Shut down sub rogue discord till they buff us!!1!11!!1

[short radish]

it doesnt

[limpid sage]

Real

[vale pine]

aoe feels terrible not only because of tuning but also energy

sure

[hollow spear]

Idc about all that tbh

Spec feels good rn

[vale pine]

you can always fix something by massively buffing things

[hollow spear]

Give st and I'm good

[dusk stone]

like what is with PV as a talent, noone in their right mind would take that atm

dead node

[rocky ocean]

m+ st would go bonanzas

so prob not gonna happen

[vale pine]

but its not wrong

[sharp zephyr]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

its a late talent too, why is it garbage

[vale pine]

tuning is the baseline

[short radish]

tbh our 5% buff we got at the end of ptr felt like a

Oh shit we haven't even looked at sub rogue at all. Let's buff them by 5% just to be safe so they aren't absolutely dogwater

[vale pine]

everything else would just to make the spec better and qol

[short radish]

which we still kinda are

like we'd need a 10% just to be middle of the pack

[dusk stone]

we are in raid now about 1.5 months before season 3 started where we were

a few buffs and we will be below aug again

[short radish]

being below aug and also having them steal our damage

is the ultimate fuck you

[limpid sage]

They should’ve accidentally buffed us twice like last time

[hollow spear]

This is the point of a patch where nothing will get done besides easy tuning, not saying that dev attention could be better during ptr etc. So we need more single target rn and that's what I'm advocating for.

[dusk stone]

You could prob get away with ST. Not like we're using evis much and our boss damage is a bit low

[hollow spear]

Wdym get away with St?

Did you look at fractillus?

[dusk stone]

it wont have drastic adverse effects in m+

[lilac stag]

here’s your BP buff. now go away. they don’t give a shit about sub as a spec. should be obvious at this point.

[dusk stone]

sub can't just become the best spec in m+

[hollow spear]

It won't

It doesn't funnel

[dusk stone]

we are currently beating sin rogues on FG is how good the tier set is

if we make boss damage like 10% better

it will be too much maybe

[rocky ocean]

that isn't exclusive to sub. They systemically don't spend enough time for specs

[hollow spear]

We're beating sin if the group doesn't play around sin

[dusk stone]

this is with funnel accounted for

[hollow spear]

The second a mega develops that includes sin we won't

[dusk stone]

its been speculated to be a maybe sin maybe sub key since ptr

[warm marlin]

[hollow spear]

Good groups will pull around sin

And you'll never beat that on sub

[dusk stone]

we aren't in an awful place for m+ but we can't just receive drastic stuff or we're broken

[short radish]

i know this is a bit 🤡 but i feel sub > sin in gambit due to having to reapply rupture in the first zone

[dusk stone]

we are including that obviously

[lilac stag]

It’s consistently shown every dev cycle with this spec. It’s the afterthought of the three specs on a class that is by comparison to other classes a lower priority.

[short radish]

like first pull

i spread my ruptures

i press CT

[vale pine]

we don't beat sin

[short radish]

and then all the rupture mobs are already dead

[vale pine]

unless you do low keys

[tepid trellis]

floodgate

[vale pine]

where stuff dies fast

[hollow spear]

I don't know what to tell you Zorn, but that's categorically not true

[vale pine]

once we move to higher keys

[dusk stone]

well at least we're not saying maybe now

[hollow spear]

Can see that, at least for now

[vale pine]

subtlety falls off quickly because the sustained damgae is low

[rocky ocean]

Салатикок 😎

[vale pine]

also sin does absurd prio damage

[tepid trellis]

its actually not "that" bad anymore

regular dances do quite a lot now

[vale pine]

we probably would just need a evis buff and secret to 8 instead of 5 soft cap

[hollow spear]

I'm quite happy with how sub plays and performs in m+. I just refute that it competes with sin, and fg is no exception.

[lethal breach]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusk stone]

stealthi posted new data so yeah i agree

its just been rampant speculation thus far that we'd MAYBE have fg as a sub key

[lilac stag]

it’s cope is what it is

[hollow spear]

It's a good sub key

And sin will probably get nerfed

[lilac stag]

Dawnbreaker is yummie

[tepid trellis]

since did get a caustic "nerf"

[vale pine]

they got hotfix nerfed already kinda

[tepid trellis]

last night

[vale pine]

^

[hollow spear]

Huh

[tepid trellis]

caustic ws double dipping

[vale pine]

but to be fair

[tepid trellis]

with specc aura

[vale pine]

lets compare in a key thats less favorable to sub

[lilac stag]

Akara

[dusk stone]

8.5 to 10.002 is like a bit under 20%

not insignificant

[tepid trellis]

give sub back combo

and you will see it in some keys

[dusk stone]

give shadowdust back

[lilac stag]

Sorry. Assa is now priority spec. Best we can offer is 6% BP buff.

[hollow spear]

Is there some write up about it?

[tepid trellis]

nah

[keen dome]

I'll take it

[hollow spear]

Missed that completely and there's no pin in sin discord

[tepid trellis]

blizzard didn't even wanna tells us they did it

just got caught when it hit the servers

[dusk stone]

how much of a nerf is it

[vale pine]

[lilac stag]

Briefly discussed in the #tc-research channel

[tepid trellis]

it went from 48% replicated dmg down to the intended 40%

[steel zinc]

17% of caustic damage

so take your last assa dmg breakdown and remove 17% of caustic damage

keep in mind depending on the build this isnt that big of a nerf. Like bleed build it isnt that bad. Raid cleave build its a much bigger hit.

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

Maybe that evens it out on 3rd boss

[steel zinc]

you mean the spider?

or 2nd boss?

talking rwf order

[hollow spear]

In my mind spider is 2nd

But I meant the cleave boss

[bleak night]

its definitely a not insignificant nerf to assa for soulbinder yeah

[dusk stone]

did sin even need it

wcl shows that

but go watch liquids comp

sin is not even in top 50% of dps

[bleak night]

well i think their kill was after it was fixed

[tepid trellis]

they might have just prio'd people that needs items from the boss ngl

it was a joke of a boss

[bleak night]

yeah

plexus gave them a harder time lmao

[hollow spear]

Ryldd would have lost 450k dps, which is like 6-7%

[warm marlin]

stealthi do you have numbers from dawnbreaker

for sub keys

[dusk stone]

i saw that, somehow easier than the "2nd" boss

[warm marlin]

ive been chain running 10/11s (all post nerf)

spec is still busted

as expected

[bleak night]

idk maybe its just the name

i dont think anyone would beat bingus regardless of spec

[keen dome]

agreed

[warm marlin]

i have like 2 days of practice for assa im not an assa player

[pearl swan]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1398158708856328313/1405835121680060518/image.png?ex=68a0ee3c&is=689f9cbc&hm=27782b8f9893de4a06ac4105894ade09d8f055b3d8fb4e04c8daac925bc0afcd&

guys is this good

[hollow spear]

No

[tepid trellis]

did the warr unequip wep?

[bleak night]

not for your warrior thats for sure

[dusk stone]

was sub nerfed on ptr

casual got a 10m overall for fg

[tepid trellis]

no

[hollow spear]

Why would you ask sub chat if your sin performance was good

[warm marlin]

this is a sin channel now buddy

get with the times

[dusk stone]

i suppose thats much more gear though

[tepid trellis]

it was yes

[pearl swan]

put the poisons in the bag

[hollow spear]

My shiv usage still feels atrocious

[opal basalt]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/sub.webp

[warm marlin]

ambush for mark, spread garrote to everything, rupture depending on pull length, CT, dm, shiv envenom etc etc vanish reapply imp garr to everything big once shiv over, ct shiv again

not as assa expert obviously though im just hitting buttons

[lethal gale]

Just wait till MA rolls off and vanish so it refreshes 😉

[cursive vapor]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[keen dome]

4p 🙏

[red vortex]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lofty lance]

damn sub is pumping

11 flood

[dusk stone]

yeah

[glacial haven]

that with 4p right?

[lofty lance]

ye

[limpid sage]

you guys know if ilvl shown is equipped or highest possible?

when queueing

[short radish]

should be highest

[tight sparrow]

im afraid but we gonna get nerf

im gapping everyone like 2-3M

[limpid sage]

people are very bad

[summer peak]

!belt

[tight sparrow]

thats also true

[fleet wharf]

Hey, so this is my first expansion, and the prev two tiers melee and ranged balance looked ok, but its not looking too good for melees in general this tier. Whats the rest of tier going to be like if rwf balance is heavily ranged favored? There will still be demand for rogues and melee after rwf is over right?

[mint swift]

Why would sub get nerfed ?

I feel like Assa is outright better in keys atm

[tepid trellis]

no feels needed, it just is better

[mint swift]

Yea

[dusk stone]

we were just that garbage for 2 patches in a row is why us being ok feels like it deserves a nerf

[lofty lance]

imagine if subs gonna get buffed because of raid dps rankings

we gonna be s++ in keys

xd

[dusk stone]

i dont see sub changes coming for raid tbh

what they gonna buff, ST?

[tepid trellis]

you just buff evis

[fleet wharf]

What knobs can they turn to buff our st?

[tepid trellis]

not like we press that on AoE anyways

[dusk stone]

i guess that works

but dont you have to buff it so much we become broken for boss damage

[short radish]

would have to be big buffs

to be broken for boss dam

[dusk stone]

how much %age our evic do in raid

[dusk stone]

so like 40% if you count coup

that has to translate to like 8% aura buff for us to be middle of the pack atm no?

[tepid trellis]

not actually sure what the spell data is on coup

pretty sure it is its own spell

eleem prolly knows

[dusk stone]

i mean then you just have to buff it even more though right

like in principle i agree we but dont ST sim worth anything is the problem

[tepid trellis]

if you buff sub by 10%

it has the same single target sim

as assa