subtlety

[steel zinc]

Low prio on that ngl

U got it?

It's fixed

Doesn't work anymore

Boss is really fun in hc

[limpid sage]

anyone else sim less with the new m+ setup?

[wicked urchin]

nice

[keen dome]

Huge

See, complaining about loot drops always works

[wicked urchin]

sure does

this is still extremely cursed though

[cursive vapor]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste

[vale pine]

cute

[sacred yarrow]

pet

[void ocean]

CAN I PET THAT DAWG

[drifting fable]

can we do what ret discord did

close down outlaw until they uncap it, close down sub rogue until they do whatever

fucking hilarious

[sacred yarrow]

no because

[void ocean]

yea, all 10 sub rogues protesting is rly gonna send em a message

[tame terrace]

shut the whole rogue discord down until they delet the class

[dusk stone]

its 5 now

[runic trail]

https://tenor.com/view/arrested-development-david-cross-tobias-funke-there-are-dozens-of-us-dozens-gif-5426075

[slate marlin]

Dozens in plural is a bit of a stretch

[runic trail]

I'm counting the secret technique clones in the numbers

[slate marlin]

Buff sub 🙁

its going to be better with 4p but still

Another assa season yet again

[karmic zenith]

until they put me out of my misery

[dusk stone]

after the great gallywix parse war of undermine, we are down to single digits unfortunately

[rapid forum]

Well actually there was around 50-100 parses on the bosses I killed in HC yesterday

Surely it's only gonna go up

Right

Right...?

[bleak night]

unrealistic picture

there arent that many people that play rogue

maybe we fill half the table

[runic trail]

Sectec clones

[rapid forum]

🦫

[maiden oar]

thats good because warcraft logs is not since the guy logging was on the other nexus king platform

[runic trail]

[vestal escarp]

Buff retri by 10%

But only st

[valid yoke]

Me trying to figure out if sub will overtake assa when it gets 4p

[tribal blade]

no shot it's happening again

WHEEEE

[hollow spear]

Melting down in discord won't get you a single percent of a buff

Especially if you are a rogue

[runic trail]

If I was blizzard I'd give them a .1℅ aura nerf and say 'we don't negotiate with terrorists'

[hollow spear]

True

The fractillus statistic is honestly cursed tho

[runic trail]

Which one?

[flat marsh]

is the range of nimble flurry really literally melee only?
i cant seem to do the dummy level 5target dps in real m+, im thinking whether its my nimble not hitting all target

[tepid trellis]

its like an 8 yard AoE around you that hits 8

[flat marsh]

oh ok so its ike the range with acrobatic

thanks

maybe i'll do another run and try to log it

[tepid trellis]

thats with me not really pressing BP cuz it was 3am and id been awake for 24 hours

[solemn lodge]

is there any good video guides on rotation?

i have brain fog

[flat marsh]

is 8M the overall or one pull?

[solemn lodge]

i cant read

[flat marsh]

my highest overall is like 5Mish

https://tenor.com/view/hamster-smile-smiling-creepy-golden-hamster-gif-27468975

[glacial haven]

is normal that i do the same dmg using BP /Eviscerate o the 5 Dummy burst

[hollow spear]

They should be somewhat close, bp a bit better

[hollow spear]

Probably overall, doable with good gear and good pulls

[hollow spear]

Looks too ethical

[worthy axle]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[spring elm]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tepid trellis]

overall

[zenith prism]

with new 4pc?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[zenith prism]

huge

[jade urchin]

idk i think sub is strong but i also got funneled gear a bit

i had netherprism and 4p on wednesday

my guild thinks entire sub rogue playerbase is sandbagging to get buff

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe we are, maybe not

[haughty rose]

i just hit a 10,5M opener on last boss gambit at 687ilv and the pug group called sub ridiculously OP

i'm afraid we see some nerfs in the following weeks

[warm marlin]

i am 100% certain sub will not get nerfed

[haughty mural]

There are other classes bursting relatively high when they highroll

Nerf them all ?

Make all specs as flat as outlaw

[jade urchin]

idk i think everyone else that had 4piece was competing damage wise

its bit more balanced than logs suggest rn

[haughty rose]

they are not sub so actually relevant to blizz

[jade urchin]

even if sub is broken no one would know

fractillus had like 50 sub rogue logs yesterday when i checked

at world rank 600 or smth

[stoic valve]

4p is what’s actually good haha

Just feels bad to have ur dps gated to tier like we do

[jade urchin]

4p is insane ngl

also insanely fun i really hope we get smth similar

[limpid sage]

is there a sub rogue bug rn if you're with other subs in the group?

my friend with 2p (me 4p) got like 19 stacks of flawless

idk if I'm giving him stacks as well or something

[spring elm]

warriors are down bad at least we aren't them

[stoic valve]

I came into this season with no previous tier set and people would leave keys bc my dps was too low, my friends funneled me a tiny bit, got two piece, almost doubled my damage. I can’t wait for 4pc

The 642ilvl delve trinket is like the telltale heart tho I need that mf GONE

[haughty mural]

Fury is alright, no?

[stoic valve]

fury seems decent

Slayer usable

[haughty mural]

Thane aswell

[stoic valve]

Maybe buff thane an ounce

But I think fine

[haughty mural]

Slayer in raid and thane in m+ looks kinda okay

[stoic valve]

I’m a notorious fury rambler so I cannot speak more lest I go insane

[olive canyon]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[stoic valve]

But it’s looking decent

Not insane

Decent

Hunters sandbagged tf out of max class thing and they are monsters

I hope the spirit of bobby smites them

[dusk stone]

nicely done

with that parse, any update on if FG is a sub key or not

[jade urchin]

floodgate will always be assa key no?

funnel damage in that dungeon is nasty

[hazy breach]

2 mins are usually a bit cringe

90 seconds typically line better

[jade urchin]

ye but assa blasts way more aoe outside of cds too

or rather raw details number with funnel

[hazy breach]

But idk dont think theres actually that much impactful funnel in floodgate

[dusk stone]

i got a 5mil in a low key the other day on it in no gear

[hazy breach]

Or rather, the prio mobs dont have that much more health than the other mobs

So when you play assa the prio mobs die like 15s before the other mobs

[dusk stone]

sin is pad spec too tho

[hazy breach]

So the prio doesnt really speed anyhting up

Obv assa is insane at big momma

[dusk stone]

also for big momma isnt it the call to send symbols and dance and then when the mobs are low hp, send half your flag window into boss

so you get aoe damage and then also boss amp

[jade urchin]

ye valid unless u do a bloodwarper route and try to cook smth up

its only that 1 bloodwarper and the shredders rn

[hazy breach]

And for bloodwarpers its kinda binary if the funnel is good or not

If you get one less aoe the funnel is good, but if it dies right after its aoe

Its practically the same as it living 15s longer

[dusk stone]

sub also just melts whatever mob it wants faster than the funnel right

[hazy breach]

Compared to something like halls of atonement right where the funnel mobs have insane hp

[dusk stone]

its just that you cant consistently do that

[hazy breach]

About the same yes

[misty condor]

Is there any significant difference between cold blood vs tea? Feels about the same

[hazy breach]

Nop

[misty condor]

thx

[hazy breach]

For aoe that is

For ST cb better

[misty condor]

I'm mostly concerned with aoe performance, thank you

[jade urchin]

i mean ive only done 10s this season for gear but i think assa is just gonna shoot way ahead in like 2-3 key levels more in all keys

[stoic valve]

I swapped ass to try the difference and it was an effortless 1.5m dps minimum on pulls

[hazy breach]

Im not saying sub is better than assa

Assa dunks on literally every spec in keys

Like its gonna get nerfed op

[spice lichen]

I really liked playing sin last season but my ST felt so useless I might as well have afk'd

[fallow nimbus]

1.5m dps isn't much, if you mean extra on top then sure

[stoic valve]

It’s a lot when ur doing 3.1m

[hazy breach]

But ye sub is good, just assa is completely insane

[jade urchin]

ahh i get the point now, sorry misunderstood thought u meant with current balancing

not damage profiles in general

mb mb

[warm marlin]

insane overall + insane funnel

[hazy breach]

My guilds arcane mage crashing out

[stoic valve]

The four piece looks like a golden chest just waiting for a few number tweaks to the basekit to be fully realized by the avg player

[hazy breach]

He copes about his funnel and thats why his overall is low

[runic trail]

Mages are always in various stages of crashing out though

[hazy breach]

Then assa goes and does more funnel and insane overall

[runic trail]

That's just natural

[hazy breach]

[warm marlin]

mages when they aren't giga omega S tier for 1.2 nanopicoseconds

[stoic valve]

Blizzard tries to gentle parent them for a week and they go ballistic

They ain’t really bout it

They ain’t in the trenches

[runic trail]

The last mage who left our guild ended up saying "this isn't a serious guild, doesn't respect bis lists"

[hazy breach]

Bruh

[runic trail]

Yup

[stoic valve]

Yea that was happening yesterday

Same exact situation

He was sitting on tier set in his inventory unequipped so he would get pref for tier and trink

[runic trail]

The dude got benched on one fight due to being shit, crashed out, then spent weeks harassing any guild member he could contact

[stoic valve]

True mage

[runic trail]

Then I checked his wowprogress and found that his average time spent in any one guild was less than a month

Fully unhinged

[stoic valve]

Not like us composed

Scholarly sub players

Who never complain

[steady dune]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[fiery grove]

There’s few things I hate in wow if I had to give a list it’d be

1. Arcane mage
   2.Frost mage
   3.Fire mage

[tight sparrow]

do you macro prism with blades aswell or

[hazy breach]

You can

But i wouldnt

Because sometimes you would want to double it and give it to the next guy

Aka use a 18 stack on your next blades since theres a damage amp or an important add spawning or whatever

[haughty mural]

That’s why double on use is a good one

So none of your blades are empty

[hazy breach]

But neither of your blades are full either, youre getting all 75%ers

[haughty mural]

Wdym?

[hazy breach]

When you are using your maxxed prism as a double on-use

Your second trinket is forge

Which does almost nothing

Whereas if you have antenna you'll have atleast a fuckton of extra agi and most likely a buff or two with crit

[haughty mural]

oh no i get what you meant

[empty canyon]

A lot of speccs can be added to that list though, but I have realized, it's the angry fotm rerollers that give the speccs a bad name

[haughty mural]

yea absolutely !

or whatever passive you got

[remote shuttle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[remote shuttle]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[fiery grove]

I just hate mages, they’ve been one of if not the best specs in the game since vanilla and they never shut up about it. Mage privilege is real and it harms us all

[empty canyon]

I agree

[steady dune]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steady dune]

So if i am understanding the guide correctly, during SD in aoe situations, we never use SS as a builder right? Just used to not waste an unseen blade proc?

[plush roost]

Man why didnt we do thiz when sub was below aug evoker last tier

What a crashout lmao

Poor ret mains

[empty canyon]

I never feel bad for ret

Cant voice why

[misty condor]

Because this is a totally ineffectual and flaccid response to a non-issue. Blizzard is not paying attention to what is happening in a community discord server, and even if they were, Paladin has enough going for it that it doesn't need to be a top-dps spec. A class that has rez, brez, group defensives, invincibilty, mobility, and healing

[runic trail]

If any ret mentions it, just say its the hybrid tax to piss them off.

Refuse to elaborate

[misty condor]

I genuinely don't know how they can ask for more, they have so much utility that it's always nice to have

[high eagle]

I've always said if you wanna cheat in WoW play ret. You get to be a DPS, healer, and tank all in one spec. 🤣

[plush roost]

Yeah im joking lmao

[misty condor]

I get it, I'm just annoyed with the paladin discord for supporting this. We're three days into the season and they're melting down

[gaunt bluff]

is it me or antenna is actually sim bait?

u have to go collect all the orbs for max dps no?

also would dark brew instead of another talent be better if im playing with a DH in party?

[runic trail]

Are they in support? Not like they can do owt if its one mod with control

Like if fuu shut down this channel in protest for example, its like, what would any of us be able to do

[latent finch]

We could invade the Assa/Outlaw channels and be so annyoing that the other mods will open the channel in i would say 10 min or so?

[runic trail]

We'd invade the outlaw channel before realising that we can't hope to match their level of unhingedness

Before quietly slinking away

[steady dune]

wait so they are mad they are bottom tier or something and they decide to close the community discord channel?

seems no so smart

[runic trail]

One mod did anyhow

[runic trail]

They're ret pallies, I'm shocked they typed in full sentences. (Though it was probably chatGPT'd)

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that’s a pretty insane move ngl

[limpid sage]

I like how many put the clown emoji

Prob not the response they were looking for

[swift tinsel]

Put it in slow mode if there’s too much dooming

Don’t close the channels

Or idk

Grow up?

[steady dune]

No doom in the sub chat, only copium

https://tenor.com/view/copium-cat-gif-27161395

[alpine wraith]

we love all of our fellow dozens of sub friends

[keen dome]

We do

they are all precious

[dusk stone]

its the mentality behind that spec. It's why i criticize it so much. When you give people a sense of entitlment by making them the easiest class in game and also the best, you're gonna get dumpster fires like this, because its just a race to the bottom

[plush roost]

There always has to he a "worst spec"

[alpine wraith]

at least bm got snapped

[dusk stone]

BM lacks a lot of things ret doesnt

[warm marlin]

Ret isn’t even the worst spec either

[plush roost]

Tho ret is quite downbad lmao, i was beating our main ret with 7 ilvls on me as my havoc split alt

[dusk stone]

oh he has to be a sub rogue for a day, pity him

[warm marlin]

That title belongs to arms warrior quite certain

[plush roost]

True

[swift tinsel]

Lol ours posted in disc this morning about hoping for ret buffs before I even saw the Bolas post

[dusk stone]

arms warrior doesnt deserve its warcrime of a tuning

[warm marlin]

Babies sit in top 3 for 4 months straight and the second they’re in bottom 3rd crying for buffs

[swift tinsel]

Right lmao I have zero sympathy

[dusk stone]

the worst part is blizzard likely does know of this and is gonna cater to them

i would bet money

[swift tinsel]

Hekili ass spec

[dusk stone]

i got my 2k rating done... but i dont have the hero piece for tier

also screwed up my cata and cata'd shoulders not checking if it had haste sadge

[swift tinsel]

I need to farm hero pieces this weekend, still sitting on a bunch of last season and baby champ gear

Pulled the trigger on dagger bc loomithar was stingy af

[plush roost]

Shouldnt get too ahead of ourselves, that may be assa rogue in a few days with how well its performing

Hehe

[dusk stone]

yeah i just did dagger too

[swift tinsel]

Yeah if sin doesn’t catch any nerfs I’ll be astounded

[dusk stone]

i was thinking it would make a larger diff but i had champ dagger

sadge

[plush roost]

Also had 9 zenith tokens and prism and araz drop on my dh split and 2 zenith and no trinkets drop on my rogue split ama

Dw got my 4 piece!

[dusk stone]

flood and priory are good m+ farms for hero gear

i am legit still on circes

[warm marlin]

Prism also dropped not in my split

[plush roost]

Poggies

[warm marlin]

I’ve done 30 10s since reset

Good times

[lone linden]

my guild dont do splits, im 698 with 4set, prism and sigil ama

its so dumb how quick we get loot these days

[plush roost]

Dw all 2 dimensious curios go to me and we cata

[lone linden]

majority of people gonna have 4set on reset

[warm marlin]

Damn no tier in vault either?

[plush roost]

Nop

[warm marlin]

turbo bricked character ngl

[plush roost]

Its joever we go next week

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that’s a reroll rogue for new GUID angle

[crystal bone]

[dusk stone]

did you get no tier so far?

2p + 2p is better than 4p s2

[plush roost]

Dw my vault will have myth tier copium

[plush roost]

🙂

[dusk stone]

thank you for your service sir

[warm marlin]

you got a plan for tazavesh hm char

[swift tinsel]

I need a fuckin dungeon group to stay alive on the last boss so we time for once

[plush roost]

Ye

[warm marlin]

bit afraid with the bugs

[plush roost]

Play with a priest or evoker or both

[dusk stone]

its legit the best way to get hero head piece by doing m+?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[dusk stone]

there's not anything else?

[plush roost]

So if u get package bug u can get gripped/rescued to the mail shoot

[warm marlin]

we have the incredible comp of brew mw spriest warlock rogue

destined for great things

[dusk stone]

it sounds like your shaman is the wrong color

[plush roost]

Well u dont need to be in a rush its like a 10 in hp

And damahe

Its just do mech and w key

[warm marlin]

Ya just a lot of strats rely a bit on burning bosses

[dusk stone]

we have the mega dungeon this week too

its not timed right

[plush roost]

Yeah mail and menagerie are bit of a dps race

[dusk stone]

i mean im doing 8's comfortably but i suppose 10's are a step up

still should be fine with OK gear and going slow otherwise?

[keen dome]

10's are pretty chill, imo

[warm marlin]

Meh we will all be like 704 with pot lust

[plush roost]

Also grats on wf soulbinder topkek

[warm marlin]

[plush roost]

Was it that easy?

[warm marlin]

ty

yes

[dusk stone]

and you're still worried? people been telling me its the equivalent to a 10

yeah, grats on that bro

[plush roost]

Guess loomithar is a next week angle

[dusk stone]

out here making us rogues look good

[warm marlin]

The bosses have extra mechanics in hardmode and if anyone dies once you don’t get the myth piece

[dusk stone]

oh it has extra mechs too

gross

[keen dome]

Do you think Soulbinder'll be easily puggable?

[warm marlin]

Yeah probably

[plush roost]

Later yeah

[keen dome]

Loom def won't be, so I'm thinking it'll be Plexus -> Soulbinder

[warm marlin]

half our guild didn’t even know what the mythic mechanic was until our first pull

[keen dome]

Haha

[plush roost]

Idk if loom and araz will be so it may just be another first 2 tier

[keen dome]

Yeah I think Loom and Arax will be unpuggable by a majority.

Araz esp

[warm marlin]

Loom I think will get crushed by ilvl

I haven’t watched too much

[plush roost]

Maybe later if araz catches a nerf

[warm marlin]

Araz probably doomed

[keen dome]

I think the mechanics on Araz just limit it, unless a WA + nerf can solve.

Too much precision needed (If I'm understanding it)

[plush roost]

Yeah trusting pugs to put orbs behind a blackhole

Glgl

[keen dome]

Yep

Whereas Soulbinder just looks to be Heroic+

[plush roost]

Or tanks moving boss

[keen dome]

And it's a big cleave zug zug fight

[warm marlin]

But soulbinder is fr just stack and walk around the room and cleave boss

[keen dome]

Yep

[plush roost]

Its very fun to zugzug

[keen dome]

Loom having the pylon, being pretty damage intense, needing more coordination makes me think it's never happening.

[plush roost]

Real question is, do we actually play bleed on soulhunters mythic

[keen dome]

But Plexus -> Soulbinder should be doable which makes me happy.

[plush roost]

I was preeeety good on heroic ngl

[warm marlin]

turbo boost will come too

[keen dome]

Yeah, absolutely

But knowing pugs as well as I do.....

[warm marlin]

I think it’ll explode past .5

[keen dome]

How many people do you think you'd need to handle Loom's mechanics. 6 on Mythic?

[plush roost]

8 if u get all 4 pylons

[keen dome]

Yeah, that's a huge ask for a mythic pug. Maybe though, if you can WA it.

[plush roost]

But i havent looked too deeply if 4 pylons will be a thing

[keen dome]

If it's 6 then MAYBE it's doable

[plush roost]

With ilvl 4 people is probably enough

[keen dome]

True, yeah

Any fight where you can reduce mechanic responbility down to a handful of people is super nice for pugging.

[warm marlin]

we added an extra day first week of the tier this time so I will report back monday

[keen dome]

🫡 godspeed

[plush roost]

Yeah we go mythic on monday as well

Just did splits and m+ tue-thur

Tho looks like going first 2 mythic may have been the play xdd

[warm marlin]

If your raid is geared first 2 should die fast

Plexus is maybe a couple pulls to learn the route and soulbinder is honestly even easier

[sick jackal]

It seems rets and fire mages closed the spec parts in their class discord, do we close here until deathstalker actually exists?

[runic trail]

We close it if it begins existing

[warm marlin]

why would we want deathstalker to exist

[lone linden]

trickster is fun

[runic trail]

Wait, mages closed it as well?

[tepid trellis]

wtb skyfury

[sick jackal]

Imagine they give deathstalker caustic spatter for shadow dmg like flurry from trickster

[sick jackal]

Its a good theme

[hazy breach]

We are considering splitting mythic too this week

For more antennas

[plush roost]

Idk loom is lookin a bit

Tight

[warm marlin]

Splitting loom may be rough

[sick jackal]

I have a dsm next to my name only played normal kyveza as ds so far this expencion

[hazy breach]

Ye might be too rough

[plush roost]

And if u split and find out you grief mains who split off on plexus from loot

[oak grotto]

Can you go both CB and Tea? Or is Deeper Stratagem needed

[vale pine]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/sub.webp

[alpine wraith]

i never stopped believing

tbh i dont mind tornado to get cdr

[tepid trellis]

im not playing nado

[alpine wraith]

that also is fine

[tepid trellis]

just been playing around with this

[alpine wraith]

oh nice

[solid lily]

I've read through the guides and I'm having trouble understanding the interactions that make Shadowstrike a better builder then Shuriken Storm in AOE while in dance. Is it strictly that nibble flurry hits 7 targets?

[tepid trellis]

nimble flurry

and to proc unseen blade

storm doesent trigger it

[solid lily]

Ok so storm just doesn't interact with the hero talents that much at all so it gets the boot. Thanks!

[gaunt bluff]

does assa sim similar to sub for u guys too in dslice?

i wonder if its because of my gear or assa is really better in keys

[tepid trellis]

assa is does a good bit more dmg in keys

Dslice doesent reflect actual m+ dmg

dslice is just gearing tool for dungeons

[gaunt bluff]

i see

[dusk stone]

storm is used in the rotation though. You use it to spread FW with TR if you're running that build. You use it as a gap closer sometimes, you use it inbetween coups for 4p effect, so there's a lot of uses

[warped zodiac]

do we symbols for Coup proc with tier set?

or still just symbols for Secret Tech

[dusk stone]

what are these conduit things i am seeing in halls of atonement loot

[warm marlin]

stuff from when SL was current if you put loot to mythic it shouldn’t be there

[real panther]

yes no ok, i've deleted my message but i'm still not sure. Is the tornado build better on sims but not in real life compared to final dance? is that why the sim in your sheet does not have the same talents than the build "play this" on your wowhead guide?

[dusk stone]

any of the builds are really viable. the brew one sims the best but i think a lot of us just learned the other ones more I could be wrong though

[solid lily]

Outside of the 4 set stuff it seems like Shuriken Storm is only used outside of dance for the MT rotation according to the Wowhead article. You're saying you would use it in dance some some to spread FW?

[dusk stone]

your question was about aoe though. I mean regardless even in ST you can still use it as a guaranteed means to get FW on a target, or all of them in MT

so backstab is bad, strike is good but they are both melee distance attacks, if this is keys sometimes you don't get to be in 5m all the time

but yes you use it to spread FW if/when its necessary

symbols makes your next two builders crit and when those crit they debuff find weakness with the capstone talent the rotten

which a lot of rogues prefer even if it doesnt sim the best

[solid lily]

Thats a great explanation, thank you. Sub has a lot of situational components and inteactions. I appreciate the explanation!

[dusk stone]

rogue has a very diverse kit and all the pieces generally do something, except backstab, everyone hates that ability

[cursive vapor]

why is backstab as first builder after dance a little bit better than strike?

[sick jackal]

For macabre stack If i remember correctly but i just ignore it

[misty condor]

Danse Macabre stacks

[sick jackal]

Doing fine so far

[dusk stone]

for premeditation and for dance macabre

it max combo points which means you automatically get to go into sectec

[cursive vapor]

isnt that the same with strike?

[dusk stone]

the reason then would be if premed doesn't matter for DM yes

[abstract pollen]

hey all, been a while since I played this spec, wanna ask Im a bit confused with teh coup de grace mechanic in aoe situations

do I still shadowstrike in dance window to get stacks for it or just use shurikens in 4+ situations

[dusk stone]

strike afaik

[tight sparrow]

should slightly better in aoe

[dusk stone]

isnt perforated veins giga bad?

[alpine wraith]

you need to take PV if you want rotten

[split rain]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[dusk stone]

my build wrong then?

[vale pine]

would not say need

but ye

[limber dirge]

with the extra cdr from 4p, is at least 2 shadow dances between every big cds sustainable now?

[hazy breach]

No

[dusk stone]

having done more keys sub definetely feels better this season dont even have 4p yet

[crystal bone]

i always feel like im in a situation where i need to prio something

so im not really BP'ing lol

but yea i prefer it more than sin for a few of the dungeons

just want that 4 pc power spike

[dusk stone]

stealthi got an 8m on fg

[alpine wraith]

he also has replicating and 1 in finality

if you want those you cant have rotten

[crystal bone]

so far streets is cancer for sin

[dusk stone]

yeah thats actually cracked

[crystal bone]

love it for sub

[dusk stone]

finality is something we always want but can never have in m+

[alpine wraith]

i play rn with 2 in finality

black powder goes brrr

[dusk stone]

what are you giving up

[alpine wraith]

likley some st from not having DD and inev

[dusk stone]

tornado spread rupture right

[alpine wraith]

or use bp as cdr

i end up using a little trick that is quite good

use sec tech alone then tornado to get cdr then go into dance again when sec tech is 10 secs

if pull is big enough you enter with like 10 sht

of course trying to not overcap dance stacks and SoD

[dusk stone]

how much st loss

[alpine wraith]

no idea

[dusk stone]

bosses still look good?

[alpine wraith]

i dont have 4p or prism so they are whatever

[still quartz]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

regardless seems good for aoe dungeons

[void hound]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[shell willow]

Do we think sub gets a buff? WE really aren't that far from the rets and augs.

[pulsar hemlock]

Sub gains quite a bit from 4pc also, so we will see once more people have tier

[alpine wraith]

after you get 4p and good trinkets it will be quite better

problem is that might be weeks away for some

[tepid trellis]

sub wont be good for single target, but it might be okay for stuff like Araz and Nexus king

[alpine wraith]

nexus king will be kinda good yea

can full prism the dragon's ass

and you get a triple dance

on HC at least on M maybe a bit diff

[strange chasm]

sin fb goes so insane on nexus tho

[shell willow]

So Araz, Nexus King and Dimensius

[rancid crow]

Hi I’m new here

[alpine wraith]

im quite sad that dimensius is going to be an assa fight likely

you get many execute phases

on boss + add then add again

then amp on boss then execute

[shell willow]

Oh good pt

[alpine wraith]

gotta remind me why only assa has execute

[strange chasm]

but sub is still giga fun to play

just needs maybe a slight bump on ST

[shell willow]

Damn wtf I thought this tier would be a sub tier

[alpine wraith]

yea that wont be taken from us

[rancid crow]

I play sub, but have been messing around with assa. What execute does it have? Sudden demise?

[alpine wraith]

zoldyck

[shell willow]

I love the rotation and gameplay the lows are possibly a bit too low. I guess tier makes up for that a bit.

[alpine wraith]

when we had even better burst

[strange chasm]

They should give sub execute too. The lower hp the boss is the more shadow clones come from Sectech.

[alpine wraith]

they decided NO

mastery named executioner

where execute??¿¿

[shell willow]

Hachadino which trinkets are we aiming for? Forge and Prism?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[graceful osprey]

12.0 surely

[alpine wraith]

but likely we will settle for any on use and a passive

[cunning notch]

yo gang is Sin still marginally better in m+ than sub or is it just a small % ?

[alpine wraith]

sub with 4p and good on uses is also good

but baseline assa is very good

[swift tinsel]

Massively ahead

[shell willow]

Yeah it hurts my soul i'll likely stay sin until i get 4pc and trinkets

[swift tinsel]

Sin is one of the best m+ specs in the game

[rancid crow]

I simmed 2.6 with sin, 2.4 with sub

[swift tinsel]

If not the best

[shell willow]

thank god they share gearsets for the most part

[cunning notch]

[swift tinsel]

Sub is still good but sin is just better

[cunning notch]

Allright allright

tnx for the feedback

[swift tinsel]

You’re not griefing playing sub if that’s what you’re worried about, you def carry your own weight

[shell willow]

I'm too much of a boomer to play outlaw at a high level.

[cunning notch]

yeye, i just really dont understand Sin ST with the bleed build it feels like i'm missing a button or two

and Sub feels like Casino right now idk what to commit to

[swift tinsel]

Sub is even better than sin in a few keys

[shell willow]

Anytime there is no funnel onto a boss I cry. It is really rough

[swift tinsel]

You pretty much just keep up bleeds and shiv

Deathmark etc

[rancid crow]

Which keys?

[swift tinsel]

Dawnbreaker and Streets

[cunning notch]

I pray we get exang back

[rancid crow]

Thx

[swift tinsel]

But any fight you can pull adds into bosses assassination blows up

Like a lot

[rancid crow]

I just started maining this class late last season, and I’ve gotten my rotation generally down, I just came here to learn a little bit more of the technical side for better decision making

[cunning notch]

Garotte fok fok fok, rupture, crimson, exang bim boom number go up

[rancid crow]

wtf did you say? 😭

[cunning notch]

Bfa sin 😔

[rancid crow]

I played sin in bfa

That was a long time ago tho. I didn’t play for long because blizzard borked pvp.

I came back in tww for the delves and just decided I don’t want pvp anymore

[cunning notch]

ah never played pvp, too complicated

always loved the sets tho

[rancid crow]

Back then if you did keys you dominated in PvP, but I hated doing keys so I always got stomped. I quit for two expansions after that lol

[vale pine]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/sub.webp

[sand minnow]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[graceful osprey]

Which assassination build is best for swapping over with sub gear?

[tulip gorge]

Is sub undertuned in raid or is it a case of all the players gravitating towards assa?

[tepid trellis]

both

[static maple]

Hey y'all. I need help. 😅 I switched to sub from frost mage (played for 20 years lol) for this season and was very much vibing with it. But my parses in raid are AWFUL and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I've read all the guides, set up my UI, downloaded weak auras, etc. Where can I go to figure out what I'm doing wrong?

[lethal gale]

drop the logs

[hollow spear]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hollow spear]

Check your logs by going through this list. If you feel like you're doing that right, you can post a log for review. If not, back to the dummy 😄

[static maple]

Thank you!

[lilac stag]

Outside of everything else posted, the less logs for a spec the worse they can look. The difference between pink and blue can be very little when there are not many logs posted.

[hollow spear]

I parsed a 70 on dimensius and noticed that I forgot to macro my trinket

And what scath said. Sub has a small player base that's full of tryhards and known unethical padders.

[alpine wraith]

i got a green log on king and i was like no way i did quite decent tho

looked at the logs

full of people with 4p or 2p or tier set

XDDD

[rancid crow]

Oh shit, so we don’t open with shadowstrike?????

[static maple]

I parsed grey, but had no tier pieces. Still didn't feel great about it.

[hollow spear]

If your parse is grey it's probably more than just gear

[static maple]

My thoughts exactly.

[hollow spear]

Wdym, where does it say that

[rancid crow]

The photo in the second link of this command

[hollow spear]

90%+ of the time it's a problem with your burst window

Or with you spending too many of your dances between, which moves your burst window back

[rancid crow]

What do you mean spending too many dances between? Like between flag and shadow blades?

[hollow spear]

Seems like it cut off strike as first global because it's meant to also cover every burst window afterwards

If you spend too many dances between flag windows, you won't have enough two dance back to back

[rancid crow]

Ah, I see. I had just been sending them as they came up lol

[hollow spear]

That's pretty cursed

[rancid crow]

Well I just came back to sub 3 months ago since cata so…

[carmine portal]

Pretty much the number one thing: be patient. It's always better to just wait and reserve as much as you can for your CDs. You'll notice a higher average DPS in dungeons when you do the same

Which is why I like tornado, feels like i can afford a free shadowdance for smaller packs where i dont want to waste CDs

[rancid crow]

I didn't realize it did that much damage

[carmine portal]

Your CD window?

[rancid crow]

tornado

[jagged rover]

tornado just gives a lot of combo points, which lets you reset dances faster

[carmine portal]

Oh, it doesnt really, but its one button press that gives a lot of max CPs in the right packs

CP spending reduces shadowdance CD

[swift tinsel]

Hoping our next Dimensius kill I don’t get shadowstrike teleported to my death as soon as he hits the vuln phase

[carmine portal]

So nado is a cheap and easy way to farm CD

[swift tinsel]

Still malding about that

[rancid crow]

theres so many places where shadteleport kills you in that raid

[jagged rover]

on heroic dimensius attempts I was playing fb sin, the amount of boss damage it does is silly even without 2pc

[rancid crow]

I died on the first boss because I tped into the purple kill zone

[swift tinsel]

They gotta fix that and his hitbox

[static maple]

I've been macroing flag and blades together. Seems like that's a bad call?

[hollow spear]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

You can barely hit him when soaking in p1

[jagged rover]

we yelled at the range carrying gravity orbs to move forward every attempt

until they started standing in melee range for us

or I'd grab an orb and force my side to the front

[swift tinsel]

Yeah we had a few issues with that too, was hard to get uptime

[rancid crow]

Its always the ranged that screws up that fight lmfao

[jagged rover]

luckily I basically get to funnel the boss, caustic cleave the add, and step our dk on knocks so I never have to move really

[hollow spear]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[rancid crow]

I'm running out of keys haha

[hollow spear]

Welcome to sub rogue!

[rancid crow]

my keybinds for sub

[hollow spear]

Playing piano for 8-16 seconds at a time and then going afk

[jagged rover]

I haven't put prism on its own key yet because I'm so low on keys to comfortably use

[alpine wraith]

ROFL didnt think about that one

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I had to mute myself

Hahaha

I was so mad

Had everything primed for big bongo burst

[jagged rover]

I still think sub needs a single target buff, but unfortunately buffing our single target buffs our aoe which so far in raid has felt pretty good

[swift tinsel]

Nah give us a hefty evisc buff

[alpine wraith]

they could buff evis or rupture

[swift tinsel]

Then we either lean more into nimble or cleave bigger coups

[rancid crow]

they could just buff single targert and proportionately nerf nible flurry, no?

[alpine wraith]

wont change our aoe much

[swift tinsel]

They wouldn’t have to nerf nimble imo

[alpine wraith]

as we begin bping quite early

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

that speaks for the weakness of evis

[swift tinsel]

Evisc buff might move to needle on how many targets which would be healthy

[hollow spear]

It's still quite close on like 5ish targets

[swift tinsel]

Bc not eviscing up to 8 targets is a design/tuning fail

With nimble

[hollow spear]

And the cleave fights don't have much more than that

So I'm not sure if that's true

That evis buff won't buff our aoe quite a lot

[swift tinsel]

Give us like a 60% buff on it

Sounds wild but not really

Gives a baseline and burst buff

Win/win

[vale pine]

i swear, therea re only 2 dungeons in the key pool

haha

[bright sundial]

question on soul hunters do we bp or evis if all 3 are together?

[swift tinsel]

I see floodgate wayyyyy more than others

And if all 3 have fw BP

[alpine wraith]

i can live without gambit

thx

[bright sundial]

ty for info

[vale pine]

floodgate and echo dome

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it’s like 60% floodgate 30% eco dome and 10% anything else

[bright sundial]

and no mas ver dags from either 🙁

[swift tinsel]

I gotta farm hero rings not looking forward to that, thankfully Dawnbreaker is prime sub dungeon

[vale pine]

i just crafted a dagger

[swift tinsel]

Plus possible dagger

[vale pine]

and offhand is whatever

[swift tinsel]

Same, went with the craft after no loomithar dagger drop

[rancid crow]

anybody else missing textures today? Or do I just need to start trouble shooting?

[jagged rover]

it depends on find weakness. If they all have FW, then bp, if they don't evis

[bright sundial]

o7

[remote shuttle]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[void ocean]

lmao im realm 33rd sub rogue with less than 1.3k rio

[keen dome]

Haha

I was realm 11 last time I checked with 1.4k

It's very silly

[rancid crow]

I'm 23 on my realm with 931 score lol

[void ocean]

and my realm is one of the biggest in EU

(Silvermoon)

[keen dome]

Argent Dawn here, so similar hhaa

[rancid crow]

Stormscale, so not the biggest

[void ocean]

i guess Im 1 timed 10 away from R1 😄

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

haha, I'm 12 as both Sub and Assa right now

[void ocean]

874. all regions

[vivid cobalt]

how is sub looking in m+ this patch?

[void ocean]

depends what u want

[hazy breach]

Good

[void ocean]

tho with 4pc I believe even super high keys will be doable

[vivid cobalt]

do we like trickster or deathstalker now

[hazy breach]

Never deathstalke

[void ocean]

theres no or

[hazy breach]

There is only trickster

[vivid cobalt]

perfect

[void ocean]

i have no tier pieces and so far i competed in dps in every key i did

and i did keys with ele shamans, retris, warlocks

[jagged rover]

assassination is nearly unplayable on streets, so I'm at least playing sub in that key

[void ocean]

what do u mean

[jagged rover]

oasis encounter is completed fucked for deathstalker

can't stealth, you lose marks because no enemies die, etc

[void ocean]

ehm... what 😄

[lucid jackal]

The music boss mobs don't die or let u stealth

[void ocean]

what do u mean u lose mark

[lucid jackal]

So for 2 trash packs you don't have mark

[sand minnow]

kind of a weird question, but does anyone have any weak auras that play a sound if I do something wrong rotationally?

[void ocean]

ye but i wouldnt go that far calling it unplayable

or nearly unplayable

[hazy breach]

Idk you dont get a hero talent for 2/3s of the fight

[jagged rover]

that key is already incredibly tight to time as well

[hazy breach]

Thats pretty bad

Ye streets is stupid

They could unironically add like 4 minutes to that timer

[jagged rover]

it was 38 mins in SL

32 mins now

[hazy breach]

But they dont want keys that long, so ideally they just cut down on the RP, reduce count needed or reduce health

but

[jagged rover]

need to nerf the mini boss otherwise its a guaranteed skip for groups and also reduce RP would help

so much time waiting around in there

[remote eagle]

what are you guys playing with 2x2 tier set? old build?

[void ocean]

funny thing, first day of the season id get almost an instant invite to anything i applied for, i timed 8 with full pugs on Wednesday, atm cant get an invite to +5

[jagged rover]

I'm just going with guildies as much as possible because getting into 10s is stupid right now because I spent some time raiding

[void ocean]

no, new one

[keen dome]

Put up a group with +10 in the title for any key and watch the people apply. it is really funny how many people are trying to apply atm

[jagged rover]

should get 2k tonight, and if I can get chest/legs/gloves/shoulders to drop I'll get 2pc and 4pc (have helm and a curio)

[keen dome]

A comical degree

I've had a few really nasty whispers from declining people / not inviting people. And some really comical ones.

[remote eagle]

to me old rotten build feels a lot better

[jagged rover]

I've been running then build without rotten w/ tornado, feels fine to me

[shadow thunder]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[jagged rover]

generally if I shuriken storm once there is enough FW targets to bp anyway

[rancid crow]

dude I got declined from an m0 as a 690 assassin rogue. I whispered "?" and he replied "need lust" like okayyy buddyyyy

[jagged rover]

need lust so the boss can die in 30 seconds instead of 45 seconds

[rancid crow]

wihle he spent prolly half an hour looking for the perfect person lol

[jagged rover]

people are so weird. Even when I'm filling 10s I'm just looking for competent people and occasionally a specific amount of range players depending on the key

[keen dome]

yeah

[jagged rover]

like I don't need perfect phys comp for every farm key I'm doing

[keen dome]

I try to think a little about it but more than anything I want people who've done similar content

[jagged rover]

Yep. Don't die, maybe give me some buffs because I know I'll be carrying damage in 95% of keys anyway

[remote eagle]

i like when you que up for a key with phys classes and they take arcane instead of you

[rancid crow]

my whole goal for getting fully geared and enchanted is because I want to carry people in timewalking for free lol. Screw those lvl 11 warriors and monks twinks

[jagged rover]

once I get 4pc I'm going to run sub in more keys. Played bleed build in dawnbreaker last night and did 27 mil dps on 2nd pull in there, when I usually play that key as sub lol

[fiery grove]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[rancid crow]

I'm sorry, wut

27 mil??????

[keen dome]

Ye, same. Once I get 4p I'll run sub again

[graceful osprey]

So my blues and low purple parses are not that bad then?

[hollow spear]

No

[keen dome]

I hit like 25m on some pulls in FG

[rancid crow]

I thought I was doing great with 10 mil.... how tf are you guys doing that?

[graceful osprey]

Haha man and I thought I was just garbonzo

[keen dome]

Think about it like this, too. it's a 0 - 100 scale with 0 being the worst, 100 being the best. 50 is the median so if you parse 70 then that's already above average. But then you gotta consider the amount of people parsing. If there's only 40 parses...

[remote eagle]

like, these numbers are at the end of the pull? or just top number reached?

[keen dome]

Peak

[remote eagle]

ah then i'm pumping lol

[rancid crow]

whats your overall?

[jagged rover]

Yeah, we lusted the pack because its scary and I had cds up. Bleed build pumps

[keen dome]

It depends on key but as Ass I'm ending most around 6 - 7m. Some 5.5m or something

[remote eagle]

hit 38 as sub in fg

on 1st pull

[keen dome]

Huuuge

[remote eagle]

but yea overall is about 6,7-7

[jagged rover]

I didn't see what I peaked at, probably above 30 mil

[rancid crow]

bleed build meaning all cleave + arterial precision?

[keen dome]

Bleed build owns

[jagged rover]

yeah, no kingsbane full bleed

[keen dome]

Continues to be so much fun

[fiery grove]

can someone help me out with changing the colour of fuus WA

it was blue yesterday and now its green

[graceful osprey]

True

[fiery grove]

i think its green atleast

[rancid crow]

blizz messed up addons in todays update

[jagged rover]

I run bleed build for most keys, with sub on some specific ones right now. I like sub a lot but if the pulls aren't perfect then sometimes you do nothing on a pull and it feels bad

[rancid crow]

my textures are green too

[fiery grove]

ahh wonderful, jus what someone with green yellow colourblindness needs

[keen dome]

ye, same. It's easier to just play Assa and carry damage which makes keys smoother

[rancid crow]

I left my first key ever yesterday because the tank went on an ego trip when I asked him if he would let me stealth between pulls lol

[keen dome]

It's pretty whatever though

[graceful osprey]

Bleed build for assassination better with sub stat prio? I don’t want to farm gear for both assassination and sub

[rancid crow]

he started looking me up on logs and stuff and was just flaming me for like 5 minutes wihtout pullin

[keen dome]

lmao

[jagged rover]

I just have a neck/ring swap that has some haste on it

but it plays fine with sub stats

[rancid crow]

anybody else play with controller?

[keen dome]

Stats don't matter. Like Izzi said, you can just swap a ring or neck and blast

Or just not, it doesn't matter a whole lot

Are my Assa stats. I'm using a neck from S2 that's crit/mast instead of my Sub versa/mast one and that it's.

It just doesn't maaaaatter

[graceful osprey]

Huh interesting, I thought I was going to scuff myself by having sub gear as assassination

[keen dome]

nah

[jagged rover]

at this point I just want sub to be better in raid because I have prism and gearing with sub in mind, though I'll probably play assassination more. Sub gearing really helps the guild as a whole because I'm one less person fight for forgeweaver trinket (even though sin really wants it)

[keen dome]

I wanted to push to 2.5k today but it's too warm. The weather is out to get me.

[jagged rover]

having ilvl and playing well is the large majority of your throughput. Stats is pretty small, we're not outlaw that has a minimum haste req to function

[keen dome]

Ye

[knotty depot]

I just got 2.5k

Streets 10 was an absolute nightmare

timed it after a really good run with 20s left

[jagged rover]

we ran a streets 11 last night

[knotty depot]

this is just too tight

[jagged rover]

safe to say we did not time

[knotty depot]

2m on the timer would not feel overkill

Halls 11 and Eco 11 were piss easy to time next to streets 10

[jagged rover]

I also pugged an 8 streets and it was obvious a lot of them had never been in there before lol

all my old knowledge carrying me

[knotty depot]

Yeah

Also I really wonder if having someone playing a ST build would not help massively

that can do big ST Pump

Cause most time is ST bosses

[jagged rover]

thats my reasoning for playing sub in there, though its not the biggest single target spec

[knotty depot]

Yeah

[rancid crow]

theres mine right now

[jagged rover]

also sub cds didn't line up well on oasis shield with our kill time

[knotty depot]

I think I mighg try the sin ST build when I get 4p there

[keen dome]

I like your diagram addon. you've made a shield shape

[knotty depot]

with a team of AoE pumpers

[keen dome]

or a kite

[rancid crow]

oops, thats for sin, hold on

[rancid crow]

oh it didn't change

I thought it would have, I'm dumb

I thought it was changing because I was swapping gear so much haha

[jagged rover]

I will say that even though sin is looking to be the better raid spec, sub felt AMAZING on nexus-king last night

that fight is sick as hell

[rancid crow]

is that Sadhair or whatever

the second to last boss?

[jagged rover]

yeah

[keen dome]

Nexus-King Saladham

[rancid crow]

I agree, it was really fun in that fight.

[jagged rover]

you get 2 cd sets in the first phase, cd on the big add to burn it down so I carry my side, then get to open onto the dragon burn with another cd set

next time I'm holding prism for the dragon burn instead of using on each cd set

and just not using a trinket on the platform

[rancid crow]

Theres like 4 fights in that raid where burst damage is really needed, and sub shines in those.

Except maybe the forgeweaver, sin might be more fun in that fight

[jagged rover]

once I changed my opener, sub felt really good on forgeweaver

sin is probably still better, but it didn't feel bad

[rancid crow]

how did you change it?

[jagged rover]

open with ss > rup > dance + symbols, hold flag+blades to 30~ seconds

[rancid crow]

also would sub be better in ara kara for the free cheapshots on the sentrys?

[jagged rover]

then use on cd, after the 3:30 set hold to 6 min for lust and burn

[rancid crow]

smart, I'll have to try that

[lethal thorn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lethal thorn]

hmm why does the sheet say FirstDance in ST ?

[rancid crow]

all the guides I've seen for s3 have been saying that too. I don't understand it

[keen dome]

Better value than WM

Because WM is just really fucking bad

[jagged rover]

I was considering taking WM on nexus-king because its so long

[lethal thorn]

would master of shadows just be better i mean extra 4sec on first dance with no real way to reset it

[valid vault]

do we not run CB in m+

[chrome palm]

you can but tea probably better

[valid vault]

is there any rotation difference apart from just not pressing cb?

[chrome palm]

just use this

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[valid vault]

ty

[naive zodiac]

summoning fuu

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-alarm-cat-alert-cat-meme-cat-police-gif-14279528307590232605

any recent race sims

[hazy breach]

Should still be maghar

But dwarf is fine

I checked like a week or two ago

[naive zodiac]

just gna play whatever is best for the dagger specs, figured it was still maghar ty

[idle aurora]

Eleem can I ask a rotation question

I’m trying to get back into sub and I’m co fused about the 4pc

So with like 10 seconds before flag comes off cooldown I want to stop using finishers? And when coup procs I want to shriuken storm and then coup again?

[kind bluff]

What's the reason for stopping spending finishers?

[grave mango]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[idle aurora]

I’m trying to find again where I read that

It said hold finishers for 10 seconds to build up something

But I can’t figure out what now lol

[hollow spear]

@warm marlin 🤨

[rapid torrent]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[merry agate]

We all traitors fr

[jagged rover]

you build up shadow tech stacks, so that you get more finishers in your burst window

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/mel-brooks-everythings-so-green-gif-16559114

me logging in today

[chrome palm]

didnt the sigil of the cosmic hunt have a scythe animation on ptr?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[chrome palm]

its just like an orb now

[jagged rover]

the stop using finishers thing is even without 4pc, to build up shadow tech stacks going into our cds. The coup > storm > coup is only during blades (since it gives full cp during it)

[swift tinsel]

it had a Scythe of the Unmaker animation

thats so fucking lame

[chrome palm]

yeah lmao

[swift tinsel]

also

please never get to this point

[jagged rover]

my details name is 'buff rogue' right now

[maiden oar]

i hope they give ret a very minor aura nerf itd be so funny

[swift tinsel]

omg that would be the funniest dunk ever

[maiden oar]

like 0.25 or something

tbh if we did that when we were below aug and they gave us a minor nerf i wouldnt even be mad

id feel like i deserved it in that position

[shadow lance]

At least, we get a spot for King fight

[idle aurora]

Do I have to hold coup for big burst?

[crystal bone]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[alpine wraith]

you hold coup if you proc it

before cds

[honest yacht]

How bad is haste for us? All of my ilvl upgrades are always haste items lol.

[shadow lance]

Bad

Very bad

[idle aurora]

So I would black powder if I had to

To save

[hazy breach]

No

You just dont

[idle aurora]

Oh

[hazy breach]

Just sit backstabbing

On aoe you'd bp ofc

[honest yacht]

Aight. Then that really is my issue. Got almost 30% haste with highest ilvl equipped 😂 sims 30% lower than sin and outlaw on St lol

[alpine wraith]

yea haste is quite bad

[shadow lance]

Kekw

Just sim before equipping stuff

[honest yacht]

Haha, almost everything has still been a DPS increase when the difference is like 20-25 ilvls

[hollow spear]

#buff sub when?

Eleem, please melt down for us

Appreciated!

[pallid inlet]

If rogue discord acted like that it'd never be open

[idle aurora]

Man do I need to actually play slower and learn when coup is coming up during big burst window to put storm in got it lol from 6 months to now a lot has changed lol

[tepid trellis]

you should def track coup

[sturdy heron]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1404829981074526238/sub.webp

[hollow spear]

Perfecto has a combination between le's ub and the standard eb tracker

I kinda vibe with that one

I still hate that you can't track ub reliably

[warm marlin]

[vernal drift]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

Why have you forsaken us?

Kinda tragic that sin seems to outperform sub on that boss

How do you feel about Araz?

[warm marlin]

I played sub for all of normal and heroic up to fractilius and then I did it on nexus king too

The single target is just too tragic for a fight like plexus

And soulbinder is a funnel fight

[hollow spear]

Yeah, kinda unjustifiable to play sub on plexus and loomithar

[spice matrix]

Frac is another ST fight

[warm marlin]

I actually think you could argue sub on loom

The tangle things are kinda tuned omega high rn

Assa is worthless for them

[hollow spear]

Sub for on demand burst?

[spice matrix]

mhmm

Web Buster

[warm marlin]

ye

[hollow spear]

Makes sense

Yeah, that's where we shine ig

[warm marlin]

also that fight kind of hurts a lot from what I remember in heroic and the extra dr might be nice

[hollow spear]

I could see it being quite the fight against space denial

Haven't watched it on mythic yet

[chrome palm]

are people just wiping to enrage rn or

not even getting there?

[warm marlin]

The pulls I watched I think they all wiped to people dying or tangles not dying

[alpine wraith]

BIG MOMMY comes home

[winged prawn]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[warm marlin]

Also plexus would be a sub fight if assa didn’t steal our 90s niche

[hollow spear]

Yeah our dhs kinda pumped

[warm marlin]

Shield timings are real good for 90s

[alpine wraith]

ngl

forge guy might be a tornado fight

you can get so much cdr

though about it after killing it on hc

[maiden oar]

please officers i need prism and ritual forge all for me

[idle aurora]

I will look this up. I am finding that I do better with visuals than with numbers

I got a champ prism from time walking ;D

[hollow spear]

It didn't even drop for us

So they couldn't deny it from me

It sims higher for our mm hunter

[jagged rover]

definitely track it, but once you get used to a fight, coup is pretty consistent. The only adjustments I made was holding coup going into cds occasionally if it was up in the 10-15~ second window of where I was going to be building shadow tech stacks anyway

[left ledge]

Coup is not consistent with new tier

Get used to reacting to it

[jagged rover]

I got our first prism, but it was on normal. hunter got the heroic prism that dropped lol

[left ledge]

You can start a dance with 2 ub, get a coup before you even sectec

Then you can double proc tier after sectec

You can proc it only once

You might have thousand cuts proc it

[jagged rover]

outside cds your really only reacting by putting coup inside dance right? the storm optimization is only during blades so outside of that its just business as usual putting coup into dances. Which I guess youll do a lot more than currently

[maiden oar]

idk how to tell how many combo points the sim has but it seems to be sending coup outside of dance at low cps

[left ledge]

Yes the storm is only during blades

[maiden oar]

rather than building to 6+

[left ledge]

This should only occur if you proc coup right after a dance and can’t dance for a while

[maiden oar]

i see

[jagged rover]

yeah I think its only at low cp outside of dance to not waste the 4pc proc

[maiden oar]

is it not to not risk munching escalating also

like should i be doing it at high cp outside of dance if its alot of backstabs and the risk of munching is high

[jagged rover]

I think so? I forget what all feeds what, but avoids wasting stacks sicne you cant build while coup is active

[maiden oar]

ah ok

[chrome palm]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[spice matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/he-cant-keep-getting-away-with-it-gif-19335672

[orchid nest]

if i understand correctly, BP in aoe at 4+targets even if playing trickster?

[jagged rover]

Yeah 4 targets is safe. Technically 3+ Find Weakness targets, but you can safely ignore it and just BP at 4+

[tight sapphire]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[round latch]

thats one s@xy neck

[jagged rover]

oh man, jealous of that neck

I finally got to take my vault item