subtlety

[tepid trellis]

cuz the spec has to be convulted af

for no reason

cuz streamlining a spec is too hard

[chrome palm]

Just don’t make us purple ret paladin 😭

[vale pine]

you can macro some things like:

• Shadow Dance with Tea and backstab
• Secret technique with cold blood (even tho only if you have a regular secret macro too if you want to optimze the use)
• Shadow blades with cooldowns

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hearty mango]

The window to get in 2nd secret technique during CDs is quite rough

[vale pine]

^ so things like this work

[hearty mango]

!mistake

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hearty mango]

Is there a picture for correct order at 35 sec and 55 sec?

[vale pine]

think you missunderstand it

the 2nd secret is only during your 90 sec cooldowns

so flagellation and shadow blades

and you use it typically in your second shadow dance cast

which is not rough

[hearty mango]

That makes way more sense

Sub is definitely not easier than Sin at all, but definitely seems structured

Which I can work with

This seems to be like memorizing specific button sequences every time

[vale pine]

you will still use secret first dance

just the cold blood 2nd one

i personally would maybe use a modifier for cold blood + secret

so you can use the same key

[tepid trellis]

it shouldnt be

[short radish]

sub is really wack in how it works until it makes sense

then its kinda comfy

[hearty mango]

Wait a minute

[short radish]

you do the same sequence every time

[bleak night]

ye learning sub was like a brick wall but then you get over the wall and its just chill

[bleak night]

im also dumb though so maybe it isnt a brick wall to smart people

[hearty mango]

My M+ build has no cold blood

So that only raid thing sorry forgot to say only do M+

I was wondering why my UI didn't track coldblood

[vale pine]

cold blood is better in low target and cleave situations

mainly because secret technique is soft target capped at 5

(which rly should be 8)

[hearty mango]

Is there a better buiild than what's on wowhead? Or is wowhead more for beginner build?

[slate nest]

question, based on sims how much does sub perform better or worse than sin in m+? will it be still "trolling" as some people regarded back in s1-2 to play sub or are we back?

[hearty mango]

I assume high end M+ uses cold blood?

[vale pine]

There are variations of the builds, tea is not a beginner talent but better with higher target counts

[ember lintel]

what's the difference between in and out of shadow dance for aoe that makes black powder only worth casting without flawless form up out of dance?

[vale pine]

some players prefere to play rotten in m+ still, which is fine if you want to gurantee find weakness uptime during cooldowns

[hearty mango]

I also don't see an area on which poisons to use on wowhead or method

[vale pine]

instant poinson

and on the 2nd slot

atrophic most of the time

[hearty mango]

Ok so differnt from Sin I was told Numbing so my tanks don't die

[vale pine]

numbing is fine

it typically ends like this:

• If you do your regular keys, you play numbing
• If you do higher keys, the damage reduction of atrophic can be more efficient

but you can't go wrong, either is good

[tepid trellis]

to explain the difference in the two poisons

Numbing reduces tank dmg by a good bit
Atro reduces group dmg by a tiny bit

[slate nest]

so numbing +12=> and +12< is antropic?

[vale pine]

I would put numbing in pugs and weekly +10 with guild

and atrophic if i want to push higher keys

[hearty mango]

How bad is Mastery > Crit for Sub Rogue?

If we wanted to be flexible in future lets say 8 weeks down line I become a real Sub Rogue and flex other specs

[slate nest]

okay so, back to my original question, how likely is it that I'll have a bad time in pugs with sub compared to sin?

[hearty mango]

Vers is generally just damage done doesn't change up pace of rotation right?

[graceful rock]

Well what’s a bad time?

[burnt dawn]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tepid trellis]

no stats does that for us

[vale pine]

this is for raid/single target, but the blue graph shows how stats are spread on optimized gear

[tepid trellis]

so yeah

[vale pine]

when gearing, basically take any piece with crit/vers/mastery

[hearty mango]

Interesting

[vale pine]

avoid haste

[slate nest]

like s1-2 you were doing okay dmg but if the tank was chain pulling you'd have your dmg down massively

Like not having time to restealth really reduced your dmg

[graceful rock]

I’d say sub is the least affected by chain pulling

[tepid trellis]

didn't really have anything to do with chain pulling persay, more so that you had 0 dmg outside of flag windows

[vale pine]

chain pulling is fine for subtlety, as long as you manage cooldowns well

[hearty mango]

Is this realistic for M+? If we sub for Black Powder/Shuriken Storm?

Still do backstab/shadowstrike once for Dance

[tepid trellis]

as trickster

you strike during dance

on AoE

[hearty mango]

So don't want to Shuriken Storm or Black Powder for Dance Macab stacks?

[vale pine]

The reason people avoid subtlety is that its very easy to do a lot higher numbers on assassination, and even a good played subtlety can't compete in non burst scenarios due to poor tuning

[tepid trellis]

blackpowder is used at certain target counts

over eviscerate

[slate nest]

With recent changes tho, is our dmg more consistent?

[tepid trellis]

with new tier yes

[hearty mango]

So we don't want to use as many unique abilities just to get stacks up

[tepid trellis]

we do have more outside of flag window dmg

[vale pine]

no

we only use backstab as a non standard ability

and well

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hearty mango]

Only thing that changes with that picture is Black Powder over Eviscrerate at 4 targets

[vale pine]

storm if you rly want to min/max

during the new 4 set proc

[proven plover]

Macabre is a nice bonus but should not be the focus for deciding your actions

[hearty mango]

Ok I plan to practice that opener for a couple hours

[slate nest]

I feel like the biggest reason to play sin over sub is the aoe silence on garrote

[hearty mango]

So that picture I can do it exactly like that for M+ except sub in Black Powder?

[tepid trellis]

which the bleed build doesent even play xD

[hearty mango]

If it's 6+ I don't even need to eviscerate once for "unique" ability?

[tepid trellis]

bleed build assa just does a metric fuck load of AoE dmg

[hearty mango]

I just want to make sure before I practice my buttons lol

[tepid trellis]

u do not no

[hearty mango]

Ok thank you plan to practice it exactly like that except add black powder

[slate nest]

I play the standard poison/bleed build with aoe silence bcs dmg isn't really an issue for that aswell, so bleed is better yes but still not that worth if you lose the silence

[proven plover]

You still press evis for coup tho

[tepid trellis]

yes do consume coup whenever its up

shit hits hard

[hearty mango]

Yeah I do plan to coup

[slate nest]

So wait, we do bp most of the times and only evis on coup?

[tepid trellis]

at 4 or more targets yes

[hearty mango]

@slate nest I was referring to this except replace evis with BP

[slate nest]

shuriken storm bp outside dance and strike bp in dance?

[tepid trellis]

pretty much yeah

[hearty mango]

Is there a WA that gives a visual for the Sub Rotation in-game? I remember seeing one back in Shadowlands

[slate nest]

Also I saw tornado also being talented, when do I use that? Or is it total troll and I should just do something else?

[tepid trellis]

you mean rotation helpers?

[slate nest]

hekili with custom rotation profile

[tepid trellis]

Tornado is kinda just used whenever

mostly used in the sim to spread ruptures

inbetween dances and for like the initial burst on pull

[slate nest]

Also ruptures I wanted to know, do I just tab rupture on max combo?

[swift tinsel]

I find a mouse over macro is nice for that

[tepid trellis]

w/e makes it comfortable to do

[slate nest]

Idk how to use mouseover macros, I am used to tabbing

[tepid trellis]

mouseover the mob you want to rupture

[swift tinsel]

#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover,harm,nodead][] Rupture

[tepid trellis]

press rupture

[slate nest]

So used that I didn't use mousover in my 13 years of wow xd

[tepid trellis]

i barely do it either

[swift tinsel]

They’re quite useful for different things

[slate nest]

I only use @cursor macros

For dh sigils or blizzard on mage

I even started to use @target for sigils

[swift tinsel]

I think I have garrote, rupture, kidney and maybe blind macro’d like that

Didn’t really start until frost strike with shattered blade on dk

[slate nest]

Question, does mouseover prio targets that don't have the debuff? Idk I have overlapping healthbars and I can't reliably mouseover on all targets

[tepid trellis]

nah

it aint smart

[swift tinsel]

^

[tepid trellis]

it will rupture what you are hovering over

[hearty mango]

Is there a pic sequence for abilities used in this order?

When is SecTech in those windows?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah so you have to be a bit mindful

[hearty mango]

We obviously want them juiced

[tepid trellis]

1st/2nd finisher

if coup rdy + target fazed its coup into sectech
if not then sectech first

[hearty mango]

Ok so Dance + Symbol > Sec Tech most of time

I keep worrying about these Dance Stacks

[tepid trellis]

yes

[hearty mango]

If I should hit backstab and stuff

[tepid trellis]

dont think about them

its just a passive

its not like WW mastery

where you actively play around it

[slate nest]

Ok so, I was mostly a pvp sub player most my life, and blasting out my CDs in succession for dps is how I used to play, I need to learn how to hold my CDs xd

Long road ahead it seems

But I might play sub in pve like I wanted to for this xpac

Finally sub is at least not giga weak in pve

[hearty mango]

Thanks friends

Tbh I wish this game had "phased dummies"

It really lags a lot in Dornogal

I guess I can practice on dummies in other areas right

I am just practicing rotation only anyways, but Dorn freezes a lot

[swift tinsel]

The one by the old brawlers guild in org is my go-to

[hearty mango]

Yeah I never thought about it until now, but with how strict this rotation is

I can't be freezing up

[zenith prism]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[upper narwhal]

Sub was the go to raid spec for like three tiers in a row and was godly in amirdrasil

[hearty mango]

What is best Rogue spec for Single Button for Raid only?

I also noticed a LOT of people queue for Epic Battlegrounds any idea why?

[slate nest]

I meant m+

[bleak night]

epic bgs are cool

[vale pine]

Think DF was weird

[upper narwhal]

Assa is the best one button spec but mainly because the others suck

[vale pine]

because in both s1/s3 sub was mainly good because the other rogue specs got nerfs

[slate nest]

weekly pvp quest is that

[vale pine]

s2 is kinda whatever, because ... rogue was shit

[slate nest]

1500 honor in epic bgs

[vale pine]

but sub was also e.g. not good for:

• 4/5 tiers in Legion
• The entirety of BfA

[haughty mural]

Tomb made up for it

[vale pine]

and even this xpac, i would not argue subtlety did eat that well

sure, you saw sub played in the wfr

[hearty mango]

Final Question maybe

Is there a command for Sub Rogue Streamers to watch

!streams

[wicked jolt]

No entry found for this user, type !stream your_twitch_name.

[vale pine]

but all seasons quickly ended up very assassiantion favored and subtlety was as bad as being the worse dps in terms of statistical output

[hearty mango]

!stream fuu

[vale pine]

XD

i don't stream

[hearty mango]

!stream stealthi

[wicked jolt]

No active stream found for stealthi.

[slate nest]

I started to play pvp more during that time bcs I was not gonna play sin xd

[hearty mango]

So they stream cause command worked?

[vale pine]

the !stream command is for #rogue-streamers <- this channel

[haughty mural]

There is a channel

[vale pine]

and only if you want to get yoruself posted

[hearty mango]

Who do we recommend? Can DM if not allowed say here

[vale pine]

wdym recommend?

[hearty mango]

Self-Promo can get people banned I know that much

Sub Rogue Streamers to watch

[slate nest]

Shindigg

[hearty mango]

Shindigg is Sin

[slate nest]

Overall rogue guy

[hearty mango]

Whispyr is Sin

[haughty mural]

There are not many sub streamer

[slate nest]

Casual I think went to Outlaw

But idk

[hearty mango]

So I can create a niche for Sub one day 😮

[vale pine]

kush play sub too, stealthi might stream doing keys or progress

[hearty mango]

But that is long day from now cause I am confused with my first dance xD

[vale pine]

hachadino might stream

casual might play some sub rogue

[haughty mural]

Kush would be my first bet atm

[tepid trellis]

i do stream all of prog, i just dont on farm cuz im lazy af

[hearty mango]

Is it just named Kush?

[slate nest]

Casual I think will play sub if it will play well

[hearty mango]

@tepid trellis What about keys?

[vale pine]

^ there you have it, stealthi is the best racoon to watch

[hearty mango]

Ok what full handle Stealthi?

[slate nest]

/stealthi

tw.tv

[hearty mango]

Ok he plays some DH too

I am all for that

[slate nest]

I will also probably stream once I actually get the hang of things again xd

[bleak night]

[hearty mango]

Stealthi has played a "side of DH" for as long as he has remembered

[vale pine]

https://www.twitch.tv/stealthi

[hearty mango]

Just followed excited to see

[tepid trellis]

used to be my main alt

right now its shaman tho

for splits this tier

[slate nest]

my main alt is a shadow priest but I am leaning more into veng dh rn, very fun tank to play and a nice change of pace xd

[tepid trellis]

im very much going back to DH alt after tier is over, shaman is too meh

[bleak night]

void dh stealthi gameplay

[slate nest]

No void dh sadly, I'd probably play that if it was real

[vale pine]

i mean he needs to, after confirming it yesterday

[proper eagle]

I have question guys.
If rupture has long duration and flag is up.
I used to set at least 6 cp before flag then should I combo like this?
Flag -> Sod, SD, Eviscerate and other combo remains same as opening?
Or I refill rupture like opener does.

[tepid trellis]

if rupture will last the two dances, then just straight into dance

[short radish]

something like if rupture is less than 20 seconds you rerupture

[proper eagle]

Then if I have enough cp before flag use eviscerate instead of rupture then SoD + SD + Backstab and goes on?

Or am I understanding mechanism too complex

[tepid trellis]

you can just go straight into dance+sod+sectech

if rupture will last though all of it

[proper eagle]

aha no eviscerate just go straight to first dance+sod+sectech and shadow blades.

I thought it was better use dance+sod+eviscerate then shadow blades + sectech in this case

[tepid trellis]

want that sectech on cd as fast as possible

[proper eagle]

I think i was too focusd on keeping opening sequence guided.

you know dance+sod+backstab -> SB+sectech

[hearty mango]

This means it empowers your "next 2 finishers" right

[tepid trellis]

yes

[hearty mango]

Thank you no questions are too dumb better to ask than assume 🙂

I am feeling inspired this feels fun

[bleak night]

they really shouldve just wrote next two finishers for that but they wanted to keep the theme er had

[hearty mango]

Why would we not rupture with Shadow Dance during "Non-CDs"

[half comet]

what about when we get new 4p would we coup twice

[tepid trellis]

in a regular dance yeh

[frigid prawn]

@tepid trellis I got a fw tracker few days ago, but that isnt important anyway when bp at 4 targets?

[hearty mango]

So regular dance we still rupture everything

SecTech > Shadowstrike > Rupture

[tepid trellis]

dont rupture during dance

rupture doesent snapshot

so its just dead global

[tepid trellis]

kinda

[hearty mango]

What makes Black Powder so much stronger during dance?

Am I missing a talent

[tepid trellis]

just scales with targets better than nimble evis does

[hearty mango]

So BP scales better than Evis/Rupture during Dance/Symbols

Thank you

[tepid trellis]

no during dance

in general

dance is just a dmg multiplier

[hearty mango]

During Dance finishers are always BP / Evis (based on target) never rupture and immediately rupture things outside dance (before next SecTech)

I think I got that right now

[proper eagle]

I do eviscerate for danse macabre while AoE though.

[hearty mango]

If only Shadow Dance had a Pandemic Window

[hollow spear]

You can just spam it during blades

[hearty mango]

Oh that makes sense so u use it ASAP once it's done

[tribal blade]

on nexus king do we not use cds on the 3 min platform adds

and hold for the dmg amp

[warm marlin]

isnt his amp timer health based

[hearty mango]

I am trying to read up rotation during "Flawless Form" see if that changes the rotation at all

[warm marlin]

probably gonna depend on ilvl and your raid

[bleak night]

sounds like its time to hold damage

[warm marlin]

yep

[bright sundial]

hey guys i need some advice been trying to main sub for the last 2 tiers but cant being myself to, somhow I always ditch it for fdk or surv any advice on the matter or inspiration

[warm marlin]

perfect time to stack sht!

[hearty mango]

Kinda surprised we use BP on 4+ targets even with Nimble Flurry with Eviscerate

[bleak night]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl3DgJ7e5Gg

[tepid trellis]

flawless form just makes Eviscerate-strike-backstab-auto cleave

[tribal blade]

oh is it? ah ok

[hearty mango]

@tepid trellis BP on 4+ targets is stronger than Eviscerate? So our rotation effectively does not change whether FF is up or down than

[tepid trellis]

pretty much yeh

FF just gives you some extra finisher dmg

[hearty mango]

Ok thank you it seemed to cover a lot of damage on Dummies so wanted to clarify

[tepid trellis]

and makes strike hurt like a mfer

on AoE

[hearty mango]

Sub is fun be different and impress people with something they don't always see! Today is my first day and I recrafted all my Sin Gear 🙂

[bright sundial]

I just something deep down every tier week 1 says no go play fdk or surv I dont know why is it my gut, am I getting in my own head about this prob?

[bleak night]

i mean this is probably not the tier to ditch fdk for sub lmao

but sub is fun

[bright sundial]

like we have no rogues in the guild and being one and topping would feels like i own the world but idk

[bleak night]

so go for it

[bright sundial]

yk you right ima go do all my devles and shit and fukin ball out tuesday

[hearty mango]

If you don't like Sub at least you can go for some Ass

[bright sundial]

ty @bleak night @hearty mango

[hearty mango]

It's a different feel, but still fun

[bright sundial]

well i hate dots classes so maybe no ass

[hearty mango]

You still spread rupture as Sub 😛

Ass only does Garrote during vanish and main target

[normal compass]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[bright sundial]

lmao true just I like instant dmg yk cant really explain it

[hollow spear]

Not Dr Atnos calling rogues aggressively mid

[hearty mango]

Number 1: You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.

What abilities do we press exactly in this window?

[glacial kraken]

dots r very fun, affliction good times

[sinful zenith]

Quick question. How much am I throwing if I play undead? Im not new to rogue I hit 3k as outlaw last season but wanted to play sub this season. Im wondering if it's worth rerolling to a different race or not

[tepid trellis]

like 1.3% dmg

[tribal blade]

oh sorry i misread what ou wrote

[hearty mango]

Oh so basically means save SecTech

Got it smart 🙂

[tepid trellis]

it means

press absolutely nothing

[tribal blade]

you can just afk

[tepid trellis]

but backstab

[tight sparrow]

Hello do we have chart of which boss which spec we playing ?

[tepid trellis]

you hold onto coup and build up shadow technique stacks

[tepid trellis]

no

[hearty mango]

[tight sparrow]

do we have to wait for na logs to choose spec for bosses ? @tepid trellis

[hearty mango]

Unless he serious lol

[tepid trellis]

im serious

[hearty mango]

He is a Shadowblade after all

Why would we press nothing for 10 seconds? Curious on reasons for that

[vale pine]

sub all bosses ofc

[keen dome]

It's the optimal posting moment. To throw a good pun into raid chat. To drop a hot take about ravoli.

[tribal blade]

i suspect sub will be good on all bosses

[tepid trellis]

you basically just sit at full combo points for 10 sec

before doing into cds

[vale pine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hearty mango]

So that tip is only for new 4p

So only thing we would cast that maintenance would be rupture

[warm marlin]

assa fractilius seems likely

[tribal blade]

i have yet to even practice fb sin

[warm marlin]

not much to practice

[tribal blade]

don't have ptr set up and no new tier yet 🙂

[tepid trellis]

nah, you can guestimate, like you do some fight research and make a guess.
a part of prep work u know, like i do a ton of it myself a week or so before raid opens and i yap with some very very good players

[tribal blade]

haha true

[warm marlin]

its just ds sin without any nuance and a cold blood vanish kb macro

[tribal blade]

mm i should get that macro

[tight sparrow]

which st talent tree we play on st ? New in the pins or the old one with finality @tepid trellis

[warm marlin]

pressing shiv before dm did take some muscle memory relearning though

[tepid trellis]

this is why we make friends with top raiders to pick their brains

[tribal blade]

yeah i'm so used to DM>shiv right now

[tepid trellis]

CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM2mBAAAAAALjZWmGzsMGzYMMMzMzwY2mlZMjtZmxMzMGwysNAAAAmZwAYMbGGYgZRL0iNYA

[chrome palm]

i noticed apl only does that on opener but im gonna assume that is apl shenanigans

[tepid trellis]

(takent straight from fuu's sheet)

[tribal blade]

any idea on the % difference of not shiving before DM on fb

[tight sparrow]

yes but this is with new tierset or it doesnt matter ? Can we use this with old set ?

[tepid trellis]

probably, or you just do talent combination sim before going into raid

[vale pine]

two things i assume are overlooked many times in the new tier:
#1 we usually run PE, so our baseline crit is higher during cooldowns
#2 we will use critical strike on gear, so our baseline crit chance will be high

the combination makes rotten less potent

[tribal blade]

you're only swapping 2 talents so i assume it's not a huge difference

[vale pine]

haha ye

[tribal blade]

hey you should tell people to run warning signs 😉

[tepid trellis]

prolly better off asking whispyr that

[tribal blade]

fair!

[slate nest]

so stat prio is mast=vers>crit?

[tribal blade]

i'm scared of red chat sometimes

[tribal blade]

yes

[cursive vapor]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste

[slate nest]

Ight, I said on wednesday last week that Im rerolling sin bcs I cba, now after reading changes and reading this chat I'm reverting that decision

[short radish]

vers my beloved

[vale pine]

haha yes, its also in the pin

[slate nest]

oh yeah I should read pin sometime lol

[vale pine]

^^

all fine

pins in discord especially on mobile suck

[short radish]

they do make it hard to get to

[slate nest]

Also I am very happy to see every rogue player I talk to say that sub is finally not a waste of a spot in m+

[tight sparrow]

so is this how its gonna look like mid tier or what ?

[vale pine]

probably not

[slate nest]

Ye I'm at work and I didn't even know until I looked for where to find pins xd Mobile discord is not BiS

[vale pine]

the bis gear sim lists are somewhat irrelevant

because there is tuning

[tepid trellis]

fights arent 5 min target dummies

[vale pine]

^ that too

[tepid trellis]

its not somewhat irellevant
just irellevant

[hearty mango]

When we get to DR for Mastery/Vers are we going for Crit or going past DR usually? I will still sim it when I get up just trying to get a feel on how people are gearing

[slate nest]

Also sims in general aren't a good benchmark bcs you will never have that perfect scenario, moving around and having to use gcd on movement will change your outcone

[vale pine]

Idk, i think any information is good

more information = better

well presented information = bis

[tepid trellis]

no info is better than bad info

[slate nest]

^^^

[vale pine]

fair

[warm marlin]

there are some conclusions we can make from the sims that are almost certainly true

fdk/warlocks are demigods

enh/arms seem to be turbo doom

[leaden prairie]

outlaw bad

[bleak night]

we dont need sims to know that

[vale pine]

XD

[warm marlin]

the second i saw people hop start flying around on an important 2nd last boss i knew that

[tepid trellis]

new that 4 expansions ago

knew*

[leaden prairie]

outlaw middle of the pack in sims need i say more

[daring marlin]

Where is this from

[slate nest]

at least OL sims over Arms and Cement

[leaden prairie]

wtf is cement

[slate nest]

enhancement

[bleak night]

fuck cement man

[slate nest]

Im weird I use cement for enhancement instead of enha and sin for assassination instead of assa

Sounds cooler

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/chicken-cement-ruined-paved-concrete-animal-gif-12698593

[short radish]

enhance is now a zdps spec

[slate nest]

fucking finally

[random hare]

every sub rogue needs enh to be good to play with them in m+

and ur completely the opposite

[dreamy badger]

just get a resto shaman?

[slate nest]

^^

[random hare]

xdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

[keen dome]

that poor chicken.

[dreamy badger]

if you pick a tanky class instead of enha you dont need the best healer class

ez

[slate nest]

or just don't have a shaman you'll be fine, you ain't pushing +25 man xd

[dreamy badger]

i am pushing 30s next season

trust

[slate nest]

Trusting

[dreamy badger]

ty

[slate nest]

do it with ds

[dreamy badger]

ok idk about that

[slate nest]

lowest sim hero

I think fckin cement sims higher than ds sub xd

[short radish]

good

delete DS sub

[slate nest]

ds sub is goated in pvp tho

Exactly where it belongs

But sadly the worst part about sub, we can't be buffed

We'd decimate sims in raid

And overall we'd be giga strong there

But I wouldn't mind higher dps outside of burst windows

[tribal blade]

let sub be strong again

it's been long enough of being shat on by the devs

although i guess you could say sub has still been good sometimes on early prog

[short radish]

no do not ask for strength

ask to be above average

[tribal blade]

truee

[short radish]

so that way we fly under any nerf bats

[tribal blade]

yeah the curse of overcorrection is very real in wow

[slate nest]

I remember df, I didn't want to play pve so I was playing pvp, it was so bad, sub was reduced to being a stunbot and we had no dmg

[short radish]

sub has always been a stun bot in pvp

thats why it's not allowed to do damage

[misty dome]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[slate nest]

first week of df was fun, we oneshot in one cheapshot xd

[misty dome]

hmm i was looking for the spreadsheet

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[misty dome]

there we go

[short radish]

then gets nerf'd to the ground

the assi sepsis cheese was kinda fun

[bleak night]

early shadowlands sub one shotting with er

[slate nest]

Ye we did less dps than a hunter pet xd

[hearty mango]

So do Sub Rogues run any Cold Blood in M+ Keys?

[slate nest]

that was also happening first week of DF

[slate nest]

I don't think so, I want tea more than CB

also I want overcharge even more

So you can't really choose cold blood

Unless you don't mind losing energy xd

[hearty mango]

Thank you

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[slate nest]

Ah this will help

I need to hire someone to scream at me during rotations, just totally degrade me if I make a mistake xd So I improve better

[empty canyon]

Does this !mistakes thing also exist for ass?

[slate nest]

Try in that channel

Maybe it's channel specifi

[empty canyon]

Well guess not

[slate nest]

gg it's nothing

But I mean sin is super easy, just open with double garrote into double rupture, FoK until max combo and then tempest, then you just FoK envenon on main target (this is aoe and I don't remember st)

I think 3 or less targets you mutilate instead of FoK

But I mean just check wowhead or icy for rotation and openers and you are gucci

Maybe even method

[empty canyon]

I am not that bothered about rotation

But that was a very good review of ways to find ym mistakes

So I was hoping that existed for other speccs as well, but I am happy to just have it for sub

[slate nest]

Yeah, idk tho I don't think sin has many mistakes

[empty canyon]

Ill find a way to do it

[slate nest]

Maybe the only thing I can think of is, you garotte while outside of vanish then you vanish and have no aoe garotte

for 6 sec

But during that you can still fan into rupture

then gar asap

Idk about bleed sin tho

Might be easier to make mistakes

how big of a diff is dark brew vs shadowcraft?

in m+?

[vale pine]

its not too big

but i would not use it in dungeons with lower pulls

so its more of a option for aoe heavy ones

[slate nest]

Im thinking, dawnbreaker is the only low pull dungeon this season no?

Maybe the new one

Aswell

but all the others are big pulls

I think

But I think sticking with shadowcraft is okayge

Now the other big one, tornado vs replicating

[vale pine]

idk dawnbreaker, streets and floodgate seem mixed

would probably not play dark brew there

[slate nest]

well it all depends on the tank

[vale pine]

oh absolutely

[lusty epoch]

So with the new tier, the first point is changed from like 20 to 10 seconds before using shadow blades?

So it's not that important to gain as many shadow technique stacks because we don't have winning streak anymore?

Like before we had shadow tec and winning streak, now we have only shatec

[hearty mango]

Question if during CD Window we can line up SecTech under 10 sec when Dance falls off we can cast Dance + Symbols same time right?

[slate nest]

You can use dance symbols same time

usually people even macro them

[hearty mango]

I noticed that it always is under 10 sec on dummy

[slate nest]

I don't even like having symbols on keybins bcs I'd just press it for energy if no tea xd

[hearty mango]

Before Dance falls off

[keen dome]

Noo, don't macro them. We don't push them at the same time during burst.

[slate nest]

Okay so when symbols?

Before sectech?

[keen dome]

You want to have supercharged combies ready for SecTec, yes.

[slate nest]

Okay

So

Sectec macro /cast symbols /cas sectec

[steel zinc]

when will the sim support first dance?

[vale pine]

it does support it, it just only gets benefits once in dungeon slice

[lusty epoch]

Why do you want to macro everything? That is a terrible macro

[slate nest]

I don't like having symbols on keybind bcs then I just use it for bs

Idk Im dented

[keen dome]

Why would you use it for BS?

[lusty epoch]

It all depends on the situation when you use symbols

[keen dome]

Backstab does zero damage.

[slate nest]

like bullshit not backstab

[lusty epoch]

You want to use it together with first dance in cd windows, then you want to refrdsh it with 2 seconds left

And sometimes you want to use it only with sectec outside dance

[slate nest]

So it's unreliable for macros

[lusty epoch]

Depends on your stacks and cds of dance/flag

[keen dome]

I feel like you might be overthinking it. Sub doesn't need energy outside our cooldowns because we do no damage. So we combine it all for proper usage during cooldowns, where we do actual damage.

[neon walrus]

whenever im out of cd's just backstabbing things for 20 dmg, I just think of all u guys going through the same shti and it makes me feel baaaarely better

[lusty epoch]

Yes, you should not macro it imo

[keen dome]

it's optimal posting time. Throw a pun into party chat.

[neon walrus]

I hope you guys all get comments like "you okay? what happened? your brother playing? did you go afk? - etc

[neon walrus]

It's so true, I've thought this too, it should be in the wowhead guide - 'play with toys, chat to your party, make a coffee'

[keen dome]

This coming reset is excellent for pun prisons. Remember: they are stuck in that +10 weekly with you and your puns. They can't leave.

[hearty mango]

How come M+ Weapon enchants is Oath/Council and not Double Oath?

[slate nest]

during sub downtime I'll just have a macro to say "dmg loading please don't turn off your PC during this process"

[neon walrus]

I also yell at the team to kill the boss faster so I look better, watching ppl catch up to you is sad

[keen dome]

haha

[hearty mango]

I am so confused

[neon walrus]

That being said - I played surrender to madness back in the day aaaand that's probably worse.... I think... for the first 6 mins of the boss fight it's much worse.

[hearty mango]

Method / Wowhead / Icyveins all give different weapon enchants

[slate nest]

surrender to madness mentioned! best talent!!

[hard sail]

i want ED back...

[hearty mango]

So confused which one to actually use lol

[slate nest]

do what your heart tells you

It will be in gods hands

[hearty mango]

I am being serious bro lol

I don't have a ton of gold

[keen dome]

Just sim the different combos

[odd pasture]

The cheapest then

[keen dome]

See which is better for you

[slate nest]

Ah, ye idk, you have the enchants based on content

If you wanna combine

Just do double oath

[keen dome]

I'm using radiant power but we'll probably have so much agi in S3 that secondaries win out so I guess I'll sim those later, easypeasy

[slate nest]

And you just blast

But you won't be enchanting first week I think xd

[neon walrus]

Yeah ima be real it is a little confusing looking at wowhead - but yeah save enchants for when you get a good wep

[keen dome]

If in doubt with enchants: sim yourself

It's very easy to do and will give you a pretty good answer for your specific gearset and situation.

[tepid trellis]

if in doubt, sim it out

[keen dome]

That's a good mantra

and it rhymes

[slate nest]

Im in doubt always, Idk how to use sims properly so I just do what "feels right"

[tepid trellis]

you should probably learn it

[keen dome]

They're pretty simple, it's def worth learning. Top gear -> play with options.

[slate nest]

So unless I'm close to 100% mastery I won't be happy

[keen dome]

Get the simc addon and import via that.

[slate nest]

I have simc

[hearty mango]

OK we hitting 10m on dummies

I think that's good for burst lol

[slate nest]

10m aoe?

[hearty mango]

Ya

[slate nest]

Okay

That's

[hearty mango]

On these guys

[slate nest]

What ur ilvl?

And stats?

[hearty mango]

681 no tier

[tepid trellis]

was that your peak burst?

or after cds

was done

[hearty mango]

After CDs over but not always of course

[tepid trellis]

lets see what we get

[keen dome]

Someday I'll catch up to your iLevel..

[hearty mango]

NOT ALWAYS was all time high lol

[slate nest]

I got to 681 from 620 at start of patch

[hearty mango]

@tepid trellis How come ur crit is so high?

[neon walrus]

i got 22% at 680 - so ima guess cause last season we favoured crit over vers

[tepid trellis]

nah

[neon walrus]

so some of us still in crit gear - or we have ass gear from last season

[slate nest]

Over 100 mastery I love that

[tepid trellis]

i can go less crit but i was doing some Assa testing so ive got a lil extra crit

[hearty mango]

@tepid trellis On dummies during CD Window I almost always have SecTech up when Dance falls off

[slate nest]

Im scared to see my stats once home

[hearty mango]

Oh damn

[glacial kraken]

doing damage is bad actually

[leaden prairie]

wtf you are full geared.. i got 4 chests dude

[tepid trellis]

we did do m0 splits

[leaden prairie]

thats cooked my guy

[hearty mango]

No Tier sadly

[tepid trellis]

we were bored

[leaden prairie]

happy for you tho

[hearty mango]

Just 675 crafted + mythic 0s

[slate nest]

Imma need some coaching xd

[keen dome]

Just play the spec and practice

[tepid trellis]

tbf the splits werent for me, but for our healers

that actually wants specifics

[hearty mango]

not ranked high, but I really like this trinket

[leaden prairie]

i see

[tepid trellis]

and will even use m0 versions over some raid items

[leaden prairie]

still cooked bro

[tepid trellis]

i only did 2 splits

they did 5

[leaden prairie]

cooked still

you cant yap your way out of it

[tepid trellis]

i wont

i hate splits

[leaden prairie]

i like splits

free gear

[tepid trellis]

wish they were banned

[leaden prairie]

m0 splits tho?

[keen dome]

m0 splits seem pretty fun to just blast and yap with the lads

[leaden prairie]

idk

i hate gear rng

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[leaden prairie]

splits let you have 4 set on everyone

and mostly low rng

its cool

you dont feel like you get cucked a tier

[tepid trellis]

we did that without splits

[slate nest]

I'm helping friends guild with splits, I get hc prog in vault they get items we're happy

well once raid is out

[leaden prairie]

what 4 set week 1 ?

with old system maybe

with like curio + 2k

eh

even then idk

you still need to loot 2 per person

thats impossible

[keen dome]

I miss the old 2k system. They should bring it back but also kept the current one.

[leaden prairie]

week 1

[tepid trellis]

right now the only way to gurantee it week 1 is alot of splits

[leaden prairie]

i guess day 1 week 2

[tepid trellis]

you can gurantee it week 2 with 1 splits

[neon walrus]

ive never done splits (nerds) but as funny as it is, it does just make sense surely

[leaden prairie]

We do 3 splits (3 chars)

[neon walrus]

(i really wanna do splits)

[tepid trellis]

or with some gaming without splits

[leaden prairie]

And we mostly always have all 4p

Idk

I think

[tepid trellis]

account wide mythic lockouts soonTM

[leaden prairie]

Lol

[tepid trellis]

xD

[leaden prairie]

That would be crazy

I mean tbf stealthin

I Wich I could just have one guy

And Respec to another class

If I wanted to

[keen dome]

Hell yes

[leaden prairie]

Keep the gear and shit

[keen dome]

FF14 system would go so hard

[spark crystal]

Can someone link sub s2 raid talents please ?

[keen dome]

Lemme play all classes on my one guy

[slate nest]

play ascension

[keen dome]

no

[slate nest]

jk

that's worse

[daring raptor]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[void hound]

id be pogging

maybe heroic lockout too for the first weeks

[hearty mango]

If we use Black Powder on 4+ targets why does this say otherwise

Picture Rotation + Text are different unless I am looking at something wrong

I am looking at Fuus wowhead one

[north schooner]

the sequence picture hasn't been updated I believe

[hearty mango]

So the text is correct at this time? Picture is wrong?

I will have to ask Fuu in Morning it would be bit extra to ping at this hour

[north schooner]

yes 4+ targets is the current threshold for BP (until they buff BP again )

[floral hemlock]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[tepid trellis]

its morning for him

ping away

or rather its almost "noon"

[hearty mango]

@vale pine we had that question above

[hearty mango]

This thing from wowhead

[vale pine]

sorry whats the question

[clever delta]

@fuu

[hearty mango]

We deduced this as the answer

[vale pine]

oh, i forgot to change the image

ye its now 4+ instead of 7+

nothing else changes tho

[hearty mango]

Thank you

Ok I am all set now and ready to put this in real practice

[vale osprey]

Do we really play "The First Dance" in ST as the wowhead talents suggest? Seems odd to lose weaponmaster for it

[hazy breach]

If the fight is shorter than 6-7 minutes yes play the first dance

Weaponmaster is atrocious

[vale osprey]

Alright, good to know!

[hazy breach]

And If theres ever much aoe then youd play first dance too

Because weaponmaster doesnt interact with storm nor does its extra shadowstrike hits cleave, so its useless on aoe

[hearty mango]

Which talent causes our finisher not to consume CP?

[tepid trellis]

it refunds

not make em free

its called shadowcraft

it just consumes your shadow tech staccks

for a full refresh

[hearty mango]

Ok I was reading that talent didn't understand how it works

Oh I see now

I should maybe get a WA for tracking that

[tepid trellis]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

whats the pvp trinket called?

[tepid trellis]

there is sound trigger

[hearty mango]

Perfect!

[keen dome]

astral gladiator's badge of ferocity iirc, @vale pine

[hearty mango]

I use that taget range one too

[vale pine]

thanks

[vale osprey]

Someone convince me to play Sub in raid over Assa (I'm bad)

[hazy breach]

If you like sub, play sub

[hidden spade]

is there any difference during cds between using symbols with dance before backstab, or after backstab with blades?

[carmine portal]

@keen dome can u show me what ur talent/curio setup is for kyveza, gna give it another few gos soon and want to see what others are using

[keen dome]

Just the raid talents with vigor + tea.

I felt it gave me a little more freedom.

[hazy breach]

Im not sure i understand your question

[carmine portal]

yeah vigor+tea is nice, the extra energy feels nice so I don't starve and can't feint

[keen dome]

That's pretty much it, yeah.

It's the setup I have had the best luck with, entering the first invoke with her below 75%, etc.

[hazy breach]

If you are asking about delaying your dances then no thats not ideal

[keen dome]

Also WM 'cos TFD doesn't really add much with how long the fight is imo.

[carmine portal]

I think im dropping WM for Ephemeral blood

I assume Ephemeral works for brann potts

[north schooner]

I think they are asking about whether the backstab should be in symbols or not

[carmine portal]

and Numbing over Atrophic?

[keen dome]

Yeah, I feel like slower white hits is going to be more impactful than 3.6% dr when everything one-shots.

[carmine portal]

didn't think about her white hits tbh

[hearty mango]

For some reason shadowcraft WA not hearing a sound

[hidden spade]

sorry i just mean the cast sequence during cds where ive always used symbols and dance at the same time but ive seen some people do dance before backstab and then symbols after - was just wondering if there was a reason?

[carmine portal]

ty, fingers crossed

[hazy breach]

You always want to supercharge sectech

[keen dome]

It's feelycraft than anything more substanial though. It just felt 'better' to me.

[hazy breach]

So often during blades if you do dance+symbols immediately after your first dance ends, sectech is not one of your next 2 finishers because its still on cooldown for more than 10 seconds

[short radish]

If you cannot defeat Kyveza, do not bother showing up to raid. This boss is a baseline mechanics check. If you cannot handle mechanics while maintaining a strong DPS or HPS rotation, you will only drag the group down on the harder fights ahead.

This is not optional. This is not "just a warm-up boss." This is the fight that tells us whether you can balance your gameplay fundamentals aka: awareness, movement, uptime, and performance but all at once. If you fail here, you will fail later.

If you can't be bothered to put in the hours to grind this fight, you are disrespecting the other 26 players on this roster who are putting in the work. This is a preparatory fight for a multi-week raid, and it requires commitment. If you can't commit now, you won't commit later.

You all said you wanted to improve as a raid and get a better ranking. That doesn't start with someone else carrying you, it starts with you improving your own gameplay. If you can't do that, you're dead weight. And yes, I'm talking to you, you slug.

And before anyone even thinks about saying, "my class isn't designed for this encounter" fucking save it. I've seen hundreds of Chinese VODs of Kyveza beaten on every single spec and every single hero talent combination possible. The fight is beatable. The capability exists. The only difference between them and you is execution and effort.

So here's the bottom line: Beat Kyveza before raid night, or don't show up.

also if youre a monkey like me, press cloak on pull

[carmine portal]

yeah it does make sense tho, im trying to avoid the mental block of "i've done 50 pulls with this build I'll just keep running it"

[short radish]

and defs go numbing. you go from taking 700k melee swings every 1 second, to every 1.2 seconds

[carmine portal]

im cloaking into burst from the start, feels easier

[short radish]

the amount i've pressed shadowstrike -> flag -> run over by a dagger frontal

is higher than i'd care to admit

[carmine portal]

yeah same dw about it

which is why i'mannoyed leaving/entering the delve doesn't reset CD's fully

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/apes-together-strong-0p1sf-gif-20906166

yeah

[carmine portal]

I think that's the most annoying bit for me, I just want to GO AGAIN

I played HC WoW enough JUST LET ME RUN INTO THE WALL

ONE HEADSMASH WILL BREAK IT EVENTUALLY

[keen dome]

I love it

[short radish]

oh one trick i learnt was when you have the clones. backpedel on each one

so you know which way youre facing

[keen dome]

Yeah, I found just moving a bit made them 99% successful

and 1% me dying 'cos brain

[solemn lodge]

currently HEAVILY considering maining sub rogue this season, how many aura points do i lose if i use hekili?

[hidden spade]

awesome ty!

[short radish]

at least 3

[solemn lodge]

cause lowkey im getting confused by the rotation

[keen dome]

I'm consistently doing 60% every pull now but i'm just not downing it this week hha

[short radish]

thats okay you can learn

which part confuses you

[solemn lodge]

or is it just a lot of yap and essentially easy?

[warm marlin]

not bad

[short radish]

it's really really confusing until it clicks

then its comfy af

[warm marlin]

fun fight except when brann decides its time to end himself

dance dropping all threat is so wack smh

[short radish]

but sub is not that intuitive

[solemn lodge]

mos confusing part is hekili telling me to use powder but i thought its supposed to be 7+

[short radish]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[keen dome]

Hellll yeah

[short radish]

get tracker. if number says 4 press bp. if number says 3, press evis

[solemn lodge]

do we have a % increase to going from no piece to 4p

[solemn lodge]

thanks

is hekili rotation accurate? or is there any changes ive got to make to the prio?

[short radish]

30%

[solemn lodge]

im not sure if all classes are up to dare

or even accurate for that matter

wanna make sure i dont mega rely on it

cause i think that will mess my thought process up after i drop it

[short radish]

then dont use it

go hit dummies

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

read the fuu opener

and press those exact buttons

in that order

then read why you need to press those buttons

[gilded jungle]

I have a question on the netherprism are we just using that every dance? Or are we holding it for every 90sec damage window?

[hazy breach]

With blades

[gilded jungle]

Thank you for the info.

[iron fjord]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[glacial stirrup]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[steel zinc]

its very good early on

[fringe island]

quick question on flagellation, should I focus back on the target that I use flagellation on after I spread some ruptures?

[hazy breach]

Literally doesnt matter, targetting your flag target doesnt do anything special

[slate nest]

you like bursts? you like seeing your character jump around doing cool attacks? you like BIG BURSTS? well I have the spec for you my friend, Subtlety Rogue! Imagine, your friend is play assassination, slaving away applying dots and having the dots do your damage instead of you, weak mindset, you instead summon 5 shadow clones (like Naruto) to strike your target with you, and you do your damage yourself not some weak poisons or bleeds! Subtlety Rogue, the only way to feel like you are doing combos

[fringe island]

thanks! so its just a buff like after casting it?

[hazy breach]

Yes and a small debuff on a target, but the damage to that target is based on cp spent

Not finishers cast on that target

So you dont need to target anything specific

[fringe island]

Thanks been stressing about this for a while haha

[slate nest]

didn't know that, was always scared bcs I couldn't find my target and I thought I needed to hit them to actually do more dps, W info

[rare shell]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tulip gorge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[empty canyon]

I wanna play sub less now, due to the comparison to naruto

[slate nest]

fuck, uhhh, then what about Zed from league of legends?

He sumons shadow clones

or how about this
"Once you go sub, you never go scrub"? idk trying to convince people is hard, you either like the spec or you hate it no in between

But one thing I can guarantee, once you learn sub you'll fall in love! Doing the combos feels right and your cooldowns actually matter so managing them feels engaging

[fallen crescent]

Why play sub or sin when you can play outlaw

[slate nest]

No burst windows, your dps at start of fight is your dps whole fight

[carmine portal]

@keen dome Consistently getting to 58% now

my dps is rlly low tho it feels like

[keen dome]

It's not a DPS race, so I wouldn't worry

[swift tinsel]

Did sleeping on it help?

[carmine portal]

it's not but it feels harder and harder to survive with the stacking debuff

[keen dome]

Consistently getting it to 60% or so every attempt but then fumbling. I'm just gonna come back to it haha

[pallid prawn]

if sub would be like zed it would make the spec so much better lol

[swift tinsel]

Haha fair!

All it takes is one pull, I went from a PB of 38% to a bunch of 70% deaths to killing it

[keen dome]

Ye

[hazy breach]

Most peoples fights are between 8 and 10 minutes, its a really long fight when youre effectively 15-20 ilvls under the expected gear levels

[swift tinsel]

^

[carmine portal]

Feels like mine is gna be a lot longer than that lol

[lilac stag]

It kinda is as she starts to actually slap you the longer it goes.

[lone linden]

yeah i basically only did dmg to her during the suck in phase, every other phase i just afk'd to focus on the mechanics

[keen dome]

Yes, but it really isn't. You can hit 10 minutes+ and still be very survivable.

[swift tinsel]

Eh not really, I killed her in 12 mins and the damage wasn’t that bad

[keen dome]

So worrying about DPS until you really are hitting a hard enrage or absolutely unlieveable situation isn't useless.

[carmine portal]

Saw a disc priest doing it in 6 mins I think

[lilac stag]

lol

[swift tinsel]

As long as you have either cloak, evasion, health pot or Brann pots for each suck you’re fine

[lone linden]

guy in my guld took 17 mins

[lilac stag]

Guess dps brann actuall works

[carmine portal]

yeah DPS brann slaps if ur a tank/healer using AEGIS

[keen dome]

I kinda wanna try ti as a tank with DPS brann but not until I do it on rogue.

[keen dome]

lol this owns

The absolute endurance of that player

[lilac stag]

You have to do it again next week for the quest

[swift tinsel]

[keen dome]

You can do the ques ton ?, though.

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

[lilac stag]

hah another bug. ✅

I love this game.

[keen dome]

You've always been able to do the nemesis delve quest on the ? mode

[lone linden]

its kind of a great bootcamp to learn a new spec, doing this kyveza fight.

[lilac stag]

It’s not showing for me

[swift tinsel]

The quest isn’t out yet

[lilac stag]

I assumed it was season start

[keen dome]

Oh, sorry. No, I've not been clear

[lilac stag]

[keen dome]

I meant next week you can just rekill on "?" for the quest.

[swift tinsel]

Same with the seasonal Mount that you get the skin for for killing her on ??

[keen dome]

Bring back the brawlers guild

[swift tinsel]

YES plz

[keen dome]

The social aspect of it ruled.

[swift tinsel]

I still have a few grey-quality Bloodsoaked Invitations in my bank across a few toons

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[swift tinsel]

Was easily one of the best pieces of content in the game

[keen dome]

Yeah, I was thinking you could improve on it by having 4 or 5 arenas at once. So the queue is never too bad.

[swift tinsel]

Good personal challenges but also like you said being able to watch other people

The social part was so cool

[hazy breach]

If there was a few other people sure

But when youre #14 in the queue

It kinda blows

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[keen dome]

ye, that's why I think an improvement of having multiple areans in the area would've helped.

That was probably the biggest thing they could've improved on.

[swift tinsel]

Someone shared this in guild disc lol

[carmine portal]

can't be real

even for the original poster

[short radish]

the copypasta is getting around

!trinket

are we running double on use trinket now?

[hazy breach]

It sims pretty much the same as antenna yes

[swift tinsel]

Is it just forge as the other on-use or is badge/lily on the table as well

[hazy breach]

Forge

[swift tinsel]

Ah figured

Ty

[keen dome]

It really is and I'm helping it

[swift tinsel]

Imma probably be a vault forge acquirer lol

[hazy breach]

But idk im not really sold on the double on-use, since if you need to delay your cds a bit it gets super cursed

[swift tinsel]

As my name suggests I’m probably not going that route

[crystal bone]

will u guys play TFD or WM for heroic clear?

[short radish]

why? i thought with double onuse delaying cds doesnt matter

since you alwayss have one up

[swift tinsel]

Tfd personally

[crystal bone]

also in mythic u think?

or boss dependant

[swift tinsel]

Probably, unless it’s a longer fight

[crystal bone]

also, you can't do the vanish trick in raid encounters, right?

[lilac stag]

Wait a minute. Did my persistence with badge pay off?

[swift tinsel]

I’ll drop WM at the slightest hint of tfd being even 0.01% better

[steel zinc]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[crystal bone]

to get another TFD i mean

[swift tinsel]

Iirc no bc you don’t drop combat in raid fight

[crystal bone]

hmm, what about m+ boss fights?

[tepid trellis]

no

[hazy breach]

A. You do even less outside cds with double on-use since you have 2k crit instead of 8k agility passively.
B. If we assume a 30s delay to line up better for something and compare what situation you end up with you get:

• With only prism you just get more stats
• With double on-use you would have your forge ready and you would have either 12 stacks of prism or you would have 18 and 3 wasted stacks, and with 12 stacks the prism on-use would be stronger than forge so you would use that instead, which means you'll be holding your forge for the next burst, 3.5 minutes after you last used it

[hazy breach]

No badge sucks ass

Forge

[lilac stag]

blarg

guess it’s a grab forge from vault deal

[hazy breach]

So delaying your cds as double on-use means you either lose a ton of prism stacks or just sit on your forge for close to 2x its cooldown

[short radish]

kk

sounds really wack

[hazy breach]

And on longer fights it sims lower too

[daring raptor]

If you ever get the trinket

[hazy breach]

Its mostly just having an on-use for the opener

[short radish]

i'll roll bis on antenna

and prism

[wild hornet]

Why don't we just buff s2 trinkets

[hazy breach]

But yes you shouldnt take forge from your other guildies

[lilac stag]

You and everyone else

[short radish]

[hazy breach]

But also just to clarify

[lilac stag]

I’m not looking forwards to first 2-3 weeks of being on loot council

[hazy breach]

its not like double on-use is insane

Its literally just the same on 5 minute standard sims

[short radish]

yeah we have to fill out our wishlist

[lilac stag]

There’s 4 of us the are LC. Raid Dad helps if we need it

the worst part is people “wanting to wait on a normal” trinket

thinking they’ll get heroic or mythic that way

[swift tinsel]

We just do two soft reserves a season which is an interesting system

[short radish]

sounds like curios with more rng

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[lilac stag]

19/23 have forge as soft reserve. What then?

[short radish]

tbh thats a decent system

honestly

most loot doesnt matter except for trinkets and jewellery

[swift tinsel]

Yeah like last season it was all HoC, BiS, Jastor/Eye and the haste neck

[lilac stag]

in general our LC works out well. We all know enough across the different specs and roles to make best decision for raid progress, not necessarily individual.

[swift tinsel]

And then we saw one BiS and one HoC all season lol

[lilac stag]

I think it’s 4 season we’ve all been running it. Usually people are one and done and hate it. Hahah

[void hound]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[warm marlin]

is this and the other stuff u screenshot above (for 3.56) going on the fuu sheet soon

[hazy breach]

Im looking into more aoe stuff (like nado) before ill push anything

But idk fuu probably puts it on there whenever he gets around to it

[warm marlin]

Tornado