subtlety

[lucid jackal]

Yes

Well not most, but likely a few

[hazy breach]

Fatebound doesnt benefit as much from execute as you would expect since none of the coin stuff works with the execute

[lucid jackal]

Or at least, a handfull of fights will late lust

[void ocean]

god i hate not lusting on pull, im shite at matching my cds and incoming lust

[lucid jackal]

Like nexus king will probs be a late lust fight, cuz late in the fight after platforms is 2 target

[alpine wraith]

but maybe kb gets big?¿

[hazy breach]

Going by simc burst chart its only like 300k higher burst than sub

But obviously burst damage isnt everything

The sustained is way bigger

[void ocean]

so many times i end up just using regular dance

[lucid jackal]

The forge weaver? I think is the name, the boss that pulls you in during p2 has a damage amp at like 40%ish

[steady timber]

lust with 2 target cleave sounds like the assa dream

[tight sparrow]

which talents do we play on ST 1st week ? New talent tree or the old ST one ?

[alpine wraith]

you can use a higher stack prism for those amps

[lucid jackal]

And then the loomithar is probs a late lust

But who knows, it's a 2nd boss so it's probs sub 10 pulls

[steady timber]

what about fractilus?

is it worth playing around execute on lust?

given that it seems like a short boss fight that's also a dps check

[warm marlin]

no way fractilius isnt lust on pull right

[visual basalt]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lucid jackal]

Probs just lust on pull

The only reason to late lust in fights is to beat p2s

Unless u have like, 4+ literal thanos execute specs but we haven't had those in years

Like the only reason mugzee was a late lust fight was because p2 was a tight dps check and p1 u literally held damage for

But a lot of damage amps this tier are late in the fight,

[steady timber]

fair enough

[lucid jackal]

Like specs just being good in execute is rarely a good enough reason to late lust

[steady timber]

yeah, I do prefer sub on paper for most fights but good thing is it's very easy to swap to assa

[lucid jackal]

I think the only actual sin fight will be fractilus tbh

Cuz like. Even without DSM, sims target swapping is still bad, so having to swap to the pillars/boss copy on forge weaver, or adds on platform for nexus king

And sin loses st when adds are added to an encounter

[sly shore]

took about an hour

not a bad one

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[sly shore]

goes hard

[alpine wraith]

the goat

[keen dome]

Cool horse

[lucid jackal]

I think ppl forget some of the context specs exist within when hyping up sin. But we will see on this Tuesday which inches ahead

[vale pine]

👍

le's weakaura pack tries to do that

but its more an estimate than a reliable tracking method

[hollow spear]

Okay, back to brass tacks

How do we make goremaw happen?

[vale pine]

its easy

you build a time travel mashine, and zoom all the way back to legion

problem solved, goremaws is happening

[hollow spear]

Well, at least we can make double on use happen

How does prism + forge look with prepull stuff (incl. predisorienting)?

Should outperform, no?

[mighty zephyr]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mighty zephyr]

Do we have tier set sims

How much % upgrade it is

[hollow spear]

10% 2p 30% 4p

both vs. no tier

[mighty zephyr]

Tyty

[sharp lake]

I figured that might be possible, I’ll check it out ty

[vale pine]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

gotter

[carmine portal]

Gz

Had to take a break

[swift tinsel]

how can you check how many attempts

[carmine portal]

Will try again later or tomorrow

[swift tinsel]

she hit the phase with 0.87% and I nearly shat

[vale pine]

congrats!

[swift tinsel]

man that might be the most fun I've had in the game in a long time

they cooked so hard with that fight

[keen dome]

Hellllll yeah. Amazing job

[swift tinsel]

ty ty @keen dome @vale pine @carmine portal

is it details or bigwigs that tells you how many attempts you had

I wasn't keeping track

[leaden prairie]

this one of you guys

[rocky ocean]

Bald

[chrome palm]

That’s John Subtlety put some respect on his name

[keen dome]

I couldn't find it in bigwigs

[swift tinsel]

I know I did 35 today bc I started with 200 tempered pots and have 165 left

but idr how many I put in yesterday/friday

[keen dome]

Very impressive subbing

[swift tinsel]

hands finally stopped shaking lmao

was so locked in for the last 5%

I wanna try it again in a month or two and see how it is with s3 gear

[keen dome]

I'm gonna give it another few hours tomorrow

[swift tinsel]

hell yeah, you've got this!

[carmine portal]

So how are people starting? Ive been opening with full opener+cloak of shadows

[rocky ocean]

[keen dome]

I strike -> rupture. Then I BS until full, then once she drops the portal I flag and go into burst.

[swift tinsel]

I opened with flag and saved cloak/evasion for portal suck

[keen dome]

Basically playing it slow and steady.

[swift tinsel]

and saved health pot for sticky sucks that didn't have good brann pots

[carmine portal]

Just to get CDs rolling, i keep getting impatient and using stuff as she vanishes/im forced to dodge

[swift tinsel]

not even 680

should have played more turbo boost lol

[loud brook]

could someone explain to be what is the logistics behind the combo point filler spell in aoe situation? I know we use SS to apply FW and build combo point sometimes, but when is the timing using backstabd and shadowstrike?

like this sim right here,3 target sim, it is using a backstab out of nowhere, im a little bit confuse

[carmine portal]

Im 672

[loud brook]

and right here assuming that SS is applying FW to all three mobs, do we not care about FW when in out CD/small CD?

[vale pine]

likely to get flawless form up

[loud brook]

ok so if Im understanding it correctly, SS being the normal combo point builder and backstab/shadowstrike only to get flawless form up(outside cd), right

[opaque valve]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

basically:

• Backstab is used once in dance to get higher DM stacks.
• The builder during dance is Shadowstrike
• The builder outside of dance is Shuriken Storm, and under rare circumstances can be backstab to get flawless form up.
• The new tier set has one optimization to use storm in dance when the tier set buff is up to not proc unseen blades

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

^ more on the last point

[loud brook]

hm thx for the info, i just got single target figured out this is too much at once lol, i will look into it

[vale pine]

haha

then lets simplify

you can ignore some of the rules and min/maxes

[lone linden]

does anyone know how much of a loss it is to macro cold blood to Secret Technique, versus playing it correctly.

I was trying to alter to apl to see, but couldnt figure it out

[lucid jackal]

Like 1%

[vale pine]

I hope this is as simple as possible:
Rules to follow:

1. Combo Point builder:

• Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance (nothing else)
• Backstab outside of Shadow Dance on Single Target
• Shuriken Storm with more than one Target, outside of Shadow Dance

2. Finisher:

• Secret Technque --- first finisher in Shadow Dance if possible.
  Else:
• Evis --- on 1-3 targets.
• BP --- on 3+ Targets

Most optimizations are around 0.3 - 1.5% damage gain

[plush roost]

sub 8 mins

!

[swift tinsel]

was almost 12 for me bc it was the most scuffed second half ever lol

true endurance test

[ripe flame]

damn last phases must have been pretty tough with the damage amp

[swift tinsel]

I had to back-burner dps a few times just to stay alive bc things got wonky

[plush roost]

The hardest part of that fight was unironically white swings when brann wasnt throwing healing things

[swift tinsel]

one of them was a dumb flag window on my part

[plush roost]

guess ill die

[swift tinsel]

I wanna find my total pull counter

[plush roost]

32 pulls for me

[ripe flame]

brann casually strolling into a portal

[swift tinsel]

I did 35 today but idr how many I did yesterday

[ripe flame]

24 for me

[swift tinsel]

I wanna say its close to 50-60 for me total

[plush roost]

Does branns level increase the healing done?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[plush roost]

cause my brann is level 21

xd

[swift tinsel]

he gains ranks iirc

[keen dome]

helllll yes, nice work

[ripe flame]

I believe so

[plush roost]

damn that woulda been nice to have cause man was i getting shrekt

[ripe flame]

his passive thingie gets stronger with levels

[keen dome]

Yeah, rank 80 Brann and I've yet to die to her white hits

[plush roost]

Had to pop crimson vial every suck phase and use cloak/evasion when no healing thingies were out

[swift tinsel]

he did have one wildly clutch orb cast for me that legit saved my run

its also funny how little damage the suck does with evasion+feint

[keen dome]

Yeah, haha

[swift tinsel]

hp bar just does not move lol

man I kinda wanna do it again haha

[keen dome]

Also if you have it lining up, dance at the same time does wonders

EE doing work on top of all the DR lol

[swift tinsel]

oh hell yeah the 10% dr from dance is real nice too

[chrome palm]

the fight seems to line up very well as a 1:30, i was using blades during every other massacre

[plush roost]

as assa it wasnt bad either

[keen dome]

My current approach has me bursting during the succ and it fits well for me.

[chrome palm]

i had to hold kingsbane on assa

[keen dome]

I like to just focus masscre

[ripe flame]

with 2 min cds it was kinda awkward sometimes, at least the first cycles

[plush roost]

yeah intermission kb comes up

first

then you offset it on second intermission

[swift tinsel]

yeah I usually send around when the portal spawns and it lasts through the first part of massacre

[chrome palm]

i just hit the natty cold blood as assa

[plush roost]

then you have it line

[swift tinsel]

so the DR from dance helps carry through

[plush roost]

Oh i played DS lmfao

[ripe flame]

I went with FB for the lulz

[swift tinsel]

gonna try as sin fatebound when I get the tier set

and see how that fares

[plush roost]

its quite good on ptr

[chrome palm]

never ds unless i need to

[keen dome]

Fatebound pretty good already

I had some very solid 30% pulls on it, it does very good damage.

And I can't randomly lose my DM lmao

[spark crystal]

why sub st build has improve shuriken on st? we use shuriken on st?

[swift tinsel]

wait it drops your mark randomly l

[plush roost]

between coups in CDS

[swift tinsel]

yeesh

[plush roost]

I never lost my mark

intermission she remains an object for dots and stuff

so mark stays

[spark crystal]

can u explain a bit? im lost

[keen dome]

no I'm just bad

[plush roost]

with new tier set we press storm between coup because we get 2 coups now

thats it

so we dont lose an escalating blade stack

only during blades tho

regular dances you still strike

[dusk stone]

we do this because the free coup has nothing to do with ES stacks right

[ripe flame]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[keen dome]

I most likely proc'd DN, then focused mechanics too much and didn't get a 7combie envenom off.

[dusk stone]

and to use shadow strike as the builder would waste an essential stack that we're just spending anyway

[plush roost]

ye

[dusk stone]

tier set is at least intuitive

[swift tinsel]

ah yeah that's a rough go, but def understandable with how the fight goes lol

[keen dome]

It's just bad play, absolutely on me haha

[dusk stone]

yeah what that guy said and then also because if you use SS twice in a pull its a better talent pick

[swift tinsel]

had a few attempts where I decided knives was a great time to send everything and proceed to move like a dingus

[bleak night]

ngl i think a good 80% of my deaths were by dying to the very first set of daggers

[plush roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

The secret to knives was just hold left/right strafe

[swift tinsel]

lmao a favorite of mine was dying to the first set of daggers the first pull I had on ??

[plush roost]

never get hit ez

[swift tinsel]

yeah I just backpedaled and angled with my mouse

[dusk stone]

are we still placing importance on the whole supercharging sectec

[plush roost]

ye

[ripe flame]

intermission for me, I have bad eyes

[bleak night]

oldge

i only messed up intermission once

[ripe flame]

always blinked right before she jumped

[dusk stone]

ive seen lot of new prospective sub rogues in this channel lately, this normal for new patches

[swift tinsel]

if I had fucked up that last intermission where she had sub-1% hp I would have yeeted myself into the abyss

[keen dome]

Absolutely sameeee

[vale pine]

don't blame yourself, we all like to collect shiny daggers

[swift tinsel]

wish I had recorded the insta-death bc that would have made a stellar gif lol

like the vdh in RLP

https://tenor.com/view/rlp-wow-first-time-ruby-life-pools-gif-12421336083863104124

[keen dome]

I've had quite a few like that where I pull, lose focus for a second and just die

[bleak night]

yup

[swift tinsel]

yuuuup

[keen dome]

While I've had a lot of attempts, I think the vast majority are right at the start of the fight to something stupid

[bleak night]

once i focused up i went from my best pull being 48% to just killing

it really is the same 4 mechanics and defensive usage over and over

its just a long fight and one mistake insta kills you

[swift tinsel]

same, it was either boss >90% hp or below 30%

with most of them being the former lol

[proper rune]

Has the s2 tier sets been nerfed for s3? wondering whether i can lose set bonuses for 20 ilvl upgrades

[swift tinsel]

technically they nerfed it s2 by not finishing it

hehe

and we get that again with the s3 set

spoiled

[proper rune]

...so yes? 😛

[dusk stone]

they better not

we're not viable without our tier as it is

[marble turtle]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

considering we're not one of the prospective 2pc+2pc specs I doubt they nerf it

[loud brook]

is there a target ratio on how many (FW targets/total target count) are we casting blackpowder(between 3-7 target). Like for example I am aware we are casting blackpower when 3 targets and all of them have FW. What about 7 targets tho, do I only wait all 7 targets to get FW after I SS to use blackpowder?

[swift tinsel]

3 targets with fw/4 targets in general

you'll likely be applying fw to mobs as you rupture

so you get some naturally

or you can just tunnel a prio mob and let nimble nimble

depends on whatcha need for that pull

[loud brook]

lol true

[rich citrus]

and shuriken storm only 3+ with flawless form active right?

[swift tinsel]

which is why they need to fucking delete FW and let nimble be the deciding factor of when you bp

not dumb bp buffs for whatever silly reason they keep adding them

[dusk stone]

look man i just want DS sub to be good

[swift tinsel]

good luck without a full rework of the hero tree

[dusk stone]

+50% more bp and less single target

[swift tinsel]

also I'm pretty sure I saw solo link something in one of the othe channels about DN no longer being able to be cancelaura'd

[high eagle]

sub rogue noob here - What are the downsides of macroing SD + SoD together but, still having SoD by itself have it sown keybind? The way I understand is SoD has a 2-3 second pandemic window so it should be okay?

[swift tinsel]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[dusk stone]

if you insist on having sod and sd on a keybind, have a seperate keybind for both

[swift tinsel]

you'd need a sod bind, dance bind, then macro bind

[dusk stone]

there are times you want to sectec and symbols without sd

[swift tinsel]

which is kinda nonsensical

[dusk stone]

i do it, its convienient and is less mental overhead sometimes

i just layered it with doing sod and sectec later

[high eagle]

Ah, I see. So its about min-maxing the supercharge secret tech

[loud brook]

in your burst window theres a small window between the second SD and symbol, its like 2-3 seconds

from my understanding you want to greed that window

which is another reason u need 2 keybinds for them

[dusk stone]

its somewhat less important this patch because sectec is weaker and is more target capped, but last patch it was a more significant source of damage and supercharging your best finisher is always good

[swift tinsel]

idk its probably a better use of mental bandwidth to have sod and dance on binds that are comfy to press together than try and cobble a macro scenario to get it to work for you

[dusk stone]

well i do both

when im going into 2nd dance which is super big dam for us, having one keybind so i can focus on other stuff is good qol

and sectec sod is like outside of dance so i have more time to think but yeah its all muscle mem

[high eagle]

I've been playing with separate binds. I'm coming back to the macro topic and trying to fully understand it. I was tunneled in on the SoD pandemic window and thought it would be okay, but the supercharge of sec tech makes sense.

[dusk stone]

i forgot we had pandemic on that

[swift tinsel]

yeah you dance back to back in blades but send symbols when sectech is ~10sec away which is easier to track

[high eagle]

thanks!

[dusk stone]

to clarify something, can we upgrade the cloak this week or no

[bleak night]

Once, to 707

There are alt shenanigans to upgrade it higher but 707 is the intended cap

[dusk stone]

ty

sub keys are maybe fg, streets and db right

[tawny eagle]

Hey, I’ve got a question about why you shouldn’t use Shuriken Storm for DM during Shadow Blades. I looked through old messages and the guide, and the only thing I could find was that you don’t play around DM, but I haven’t found an actual explanation (maybe i just didnt find it) for it. Is it because of random Unseen Blade resets from auto attacks, Inevitability, just more dmg, or is there another reason?

Another thing I’m curious about is Thistle Tea, should you always stay above 30 energy so you don’t consume it for Shadow Dance windows?

[dusk stone]

just bind thisle yea to SD and forget about it and no we dont optimize around pooling 30 energy

i do use SS once for DM during dance but maybe thats not a thing anymore

its definitely a thing in keys because of the rotten and auto crit of SS

[loud brook]

i think the priority isnt that great for SS during any sort of burst window not only for blade

like the reason you press SS at all is more combo point/FW right? blade provides infinite combo points, you probably have FW up before the burst when apply rupture

[steel zinc]

During blades with new tier you storm between coups if blades is up.

Strike does more damage then storm with nimble

thats why you dont storm

nothing to do with dm stacks

[loud brook]

ya also theres nimble

[steel zinc]

You only storm really if you play rotten to apply with one of the rotten stacks fw to targets

[dusk stone]

you also kinda just learn the damage prio over time

[torpid silo]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[steel zinc]

highly depends on the pull but yes evis is obvs more prio then bp^^

[dusk stone]

what i mean is there's conditionals and situations where storm is appropriate

i find myself making a mental note not to do it sometimes and others its just muscle memory

[loud brook]

is sim just not consider this? I looked into 3targets/7targets sim and none of it is using SS for rotten

[young crypt]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[steel zinc]

no its better sim wise to just strike with new 4p and get more unseenblade proccs

but imo sim is shit for any form of aoe

[loud brook]

ah ok

[dusk stone]

oh ye thats right coup is better this patch so we need more strike

[torpid silo]

anyone has a macro to backstab when unstealthed and shadowstrike when stealthed/dance ?

[steel zinc]

I played quite some ptr and when you just pull a lot of mobs double digits bp is just better. So its in dance strike, bp, and use coup when procct

[torpid silo]

this doesn't work while in dance

[steel zinc]

yeah in aoe you strike to get more coup

coup > bp

[dusk stone]

hmmm

[loud brook]

#showtooltip
/cast [stealth] Shadowstrike; [stance:2] Shadowstrike; Backstab

[dusk stone]

so if like strike is hitting 8 targets with the rotten maybe we dont even do storm there anymore, no?

[torpid silo]

thanks !

[dusk stone]

oh tr doesnt work with nf

god damn sub talents

[steel zinc]

you dont storm at all really with trickster except rotten and obvs when your out of range to strike, because you play a mechanic

[torpid silo]

by strike you mean shadowstrike ?

[steel zinc]

yes

strike = shadowstrike = ss

[torpid silo]

ty

[dusk stone]

well shuriken storm might be seen as ss for newer folk so

im saying striike

[steel zinc]

shuriken storm most people here just say storm

and nado for tornado talent

[dusk stone]

even so theres so much to learn with sub if youre new its easy to get confused

[steel zinc]

thats with every spec

sub is pretty hard to learn imo easier to master

also getting used to being afk for sometimes 30 sec

you lit do less then tank outside cds

and that is correct

[dusk stone]

i think i did 300 keys or so last season

[young crypt]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[dusk stone]

i got fairly procient at it in that time so yeah easier to master maybe

learning was not fun, had to read the guide like 50 times to find more stuff

[torpid silo]

yes
it's very confusing for me atm x)

[steel zinc]

but sub is super rewarding imo. If you do it correctly your are topping. Nobody burst that much and does this much dmg in that short of time then.

[dusk stone]

for sure

[torpid silo]

not even unholy ?

[steel zinc]

nothing

[dusk stone]

you get to decide when mobs are deleted from the face of existence

[steel zinc]

in bl in s2 was evoker with pi thats it

[torpid silo]

lmaooo

i mean evoker with PI

the firestorm build

was crazy

[dusk stone]

they also get reverse execute so

[torpid silo]

oh trueee

[steel zinc]

sub ist top dps also s3 in opener and burst. The burst is the reason why sub is strong in dmg amps.

Thats been subs thing for new a couple of years.

[bleak night]

During their cds they get full mastery anyway, that reverse execute thing doesn't really matter

[dusk stone]

subs also kind of the utility of the rogue specs

[steel zinc]

Also most people dont prep their 2nd burst correctly by just autohitting and prepering a coup and shadowtech stacks.

[torpid silo]

really ?

how so

[dusk stone]

you usually play sin but sub is always optimal for certain things unless its unviable

we dont talk about last season

[steel zinc]

Thats wrong

You play sub for most of early prog except sin is broken op

[hollow spear]

Sub also likes versatility a lot and has more dr than sin

[tight sequoia]

Outlaw has highest utility

[steel zinc]

sub is the prog spec for now like 3 exp

[tight sequoia]

[dusk stone]

thats what i said tho its useful for certain things

[torpid silo]

i assume the "preparing during downtime" explanation is somewhere on wowhead guide ? haven't red it yet but it's pretty much the part that scares me the most x)

[torpid silo]

why tho ?

[steel zinc]

outlaw is dogshit for any kind of serious raid prog

[torpid silo]

and why that too ? x)

[steel zinc]

and with now all 3 specs having blade flurry niche is also gone from outlaw

[tight sequoia]

Cause its so sexy

[torpid silo]

x)

[tight sequoia]

Every rogue got blade flurry meanwhile rogue got haste requiremnt from the other rogues

[warm marlin]

its mostly just the weapon issue at this point

[tight sequoia]

Thanks guys

[zealous hedge]

Oh yeah baby

[steel zinc]

you prepare https://www.wowhead.com/spell=196912/shadow-techniques

[tight sequoia]

Yall really traded well

[tawny eagle]

To phrase my question differently. What is the reason you go for backstab in single target for a DM stack, but not for another one with Shuriken Storm when you dont have Unseen Blade procs. is it because of the chance you might get a Unseen Blade or something else? Does the Combo generator dmg matter in comparison to buffing your finisher? Assuming Shadow blades is active

[dusk stone]

with auto attacks you fill an invisible that essentially when full gives you full CP directly after a finisher is used and there is also ES blade stacks

[torpid silo]

oh ? so you can't do any finishers when not in cooldowns ?
or maybe when you're going to overcap ?

[dusk stone]

both of those things are really high level optimizations

[torpid silo]

damn

[torpid silo]

ES is the hidden blade right ? the 4 stacks for coup ?

[dusk stone]

yes, and ofc you use finishers outside of CD's because there's also CD's outside of CD's

[steel zinc]

Cause you dont lose dmg by delaying cds also are unkillable and its burst is broken for prog. 2 Sub rogues soloed fyrakk intermission.

[torpid silo]

but then how do you stack shadow technique stacks ?

[steel zinc]

thats 2% and you should do it to prep a dmg amp

[dusk stone]

idk i never do that myself but i always have a sham so i never think about it tbh

[steel zinc]

you bs because of premed

[meager whale]

So. ohm. Quick question: Sub or Sin for raiding next ID? 😂

[dusk stone]

skyfury is bis raid buff for sub rogue for that reason

[steel zinc]

Pure st sin, sub the rest. Unless you like playing with deathmark

[torpid silo]

i mean u still try to fit the most amount of cds in a fight right ?

[dusk stone]

the other thing is optimizations outside of CD's amount to very little damage cause outside of CD's we do not do much

[tawny eagle]

but you will get max combopoint anyway because of shadow blades or am i missing something?

[dusk stone]

are you learning sub for m+ or raid or what

[steel zinc]

If you have a dmg amp no. For example everyone played vexxie I assume this season on mythic. You delay cds for 2min class and lust and the dmg amp starts at 2min. So you just hold and prepare everything for that dmg amp

[meager whale]

tyvm. I like sub more, so I'm fine.

[steel zinc]

you bs for prepmed and unseenblade stacks

[zealous hedge]

Sub makes my brain twerk

[torpid silo]

I see
that's surprising to hear tbh
(from a new dps player)
i thought you guys always sent cds when you had them xd

[steel zinc]

Trickster is about building coup

[hollow spear]

Using storm for anything else than not procing unseen blades between double coup during cooldowns is a dps loss

[dusk stone]

it depends

[steel zinc]

yes you do but during prog and depending on boss fight yes. In m+ nearly always send away cds.

[torpid silo]

okayokayokay

thanks <3

[tawny eagle]

so its just because the chance to miss a free Unseenblade is bad?

[dusk stone]

even in keys depending how the tank pulls i dont send cd's on 90 and will use an extra dance or maybe 2 if desperate to wait for the routing to unfuck itself

[lucid jackal]

Because there's a talent called premeditation that causes your next generator to generate max cp

[torpid silo]

that's fair that's fair

[lucid jackal]

It's not just dm

[dusk stone]

the rule there is kind of just optimize around your cds as much as possible

[lucid jackal]

It's mostly premed

[steel zinc]

you want to build as @hollow spear said unseenblade stacks to get to coup asap

[lucid jackal]

Without pre-med we wouldn't backstab in dance windows

[tawny eagle]

thank you

[steel zinc]

yes obvs

[dusk stone]

but i like standing behind the raid boss and not getting FW

[torpid silo]

and in keys, do I have to find the back of whatever mob i'm hitting for the 20% damage on backstab ?

[hollow spear]

No

[torpid silo]

thank god

[lucid jackal]

No the reason you want to be behind the target is to apply fw

[dusk stone]

i mean kind of, its never bad to do that

[lucid jackal]

The bonus bs damage barely matters

[torpid silo]

oh okayokay

[lucid jackal]

It's also just a good habit to form in general

For any melee dps spec

[dusk stone]

but its kinda sometimes if everything else has been done right

[hollow spear]

Kind of a pointless exercise in M+ tbh

[torpid silo]

why is that ?

[hollow spear]

parry

[lucid jackal]

Because parrying exists in raid

[torpid silo]

WHAT

REALLY ?

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[hollow spear]

well not for trickster sub

[torpid silo]

that's crazy xd

i didn't know that lmao

so your abilities can randomly not hit if you're in front ?

[lucid jackal]

Correct

[dusk stone]

before now we use to have a talent or some crap that removed parrying for the whole party

[torpid silo]

that is rough

[lucid jackal]

A handfull of abilities can't be parried but yeah

[dusk stone]

and they said sub didnt bring a raid buff

[torpid silo]

damn

[zealous hedge]

ah anti parry sub

[steel zinc]

This is sub tank beats you 😄

[warm marlin]

rip the best raid buff in the game

[steel zinc]

This but rogue buff still stacks

pretty broken

[warm marlin]

the rogue buff is straight ass

[steel zinc]

lol no

yes if the guild raids world 2000

but 3.4% dr is op

[warm marlin]

3.4% dr that doesnt work on half of the abilities in the game

and on some bosses is just non functional

[steel zinc]

they fixed most of that stuff now

[dusk stone]

well if we just have 30 some rogues in raid thats 100dr right

[zealous hedge]

TRUE

[dusk stone]

prob not enough rogues in wow for that tho

[steel zinc]

tbf wont happen but yes in theory

[warm marlin]

like when rwf didnt play rogue on stix

in part because it was bad for the fight

but also atrophic didnt work on any of the damage sources

[hollow spear]

Stix was hella ass

[steel zinc]

because its the 4th boss and dmg was the issue

in week 2 gear you run over that boss

[warm marlin]

?

[steel zinc]

and yes obvs if you need dmg you drop first dr buffs

paladin would have been cut next

[warm marlin]

wdym week 2 gear you run over it

[lucid jackal]

I genuinely don't know how this narrative keeps getting parrot Ed

[warm marlin]

it was one of the hardest bosses of the raid

[lucid jackal]

Atro works on a majority of raid encounters

[steel zinc]

in week 2 you ran over the boss and wasnt a dps issue anymore like week 1

[lucid jackal]

It's RARELY not good

[warm marlin]

not true

[lucid jackal]

In most encounters its legit just an upgrade to dev aura

[warm marlin]

you would never drop any of the damage raid buffs like you would the dr ones, and in my memory more bosses have issues with atro than bosses where you would not play paladin

but i could be clueless

[west cape]

Im assuming this will be the same thing then for Forgeweaver Araz when he hits P2 intermission with 100% damage increase?

[hollow spear]

Atrophic is certainly no battle shout or arcane intellect

[steel zinc]

You play prism

[lucid jackal]

I said this yesterday two, there is zero argument of "should you drop warrior shout for atro"

Because good comp making has every buff

[steel zinc]

Prism is broken for prog. No sim can show that except maybe fractilus.

[lucid jackal]

And rogues tuning historically has never been so bad, where you drop atro

[steel zinc]

And forgeweaver went into dmg amp depending on guild etc around ~1:35-1:45

So Arcane, Sub and Fatebound Assa are pretty op for that

[warm marlin]

yes by nature of a being a raid buff it is a very good reason to be brought, but among raid buffs it isn't strong

[hollow spear]

Depends on how far back you want to go, but there were definitely fights where you dropped rogue

[warm marlin]

on occasion you do drop rogue, you never drop a damage raid buff

[lucid jackal]

The last fight I can remember where rogue was sat was stix

Where u literally needed 3+ balance and multiple casters to deal with bombs

Cuz on launch that fight was legit impossible

[warm marlin]

they still played warrior and monk though

[steel zinc]

because they are dmg buffs

again stix week one wasnt a hps check was a dps check

[warm marlin]

???

thats the whole point

[steel zinc]

Yes but not all prog is about dmg

99% of prog is about staying alive

[warm marlin]

when is the last time a damage raid buff was dropped for a dr one

[steel zinc]

rogue dr is op for staying alive

[copper vapor]

sup, whats up with pinned build aoe build ? no more cold blood ?

[steel zinc]

Your argument makes 0 sense. If you had an hps check and rogue does competitive dmg you would stack 1 more rogue. That didnt happen for years if ever. Since fights are nearly never an hps check

Thats why you nearly had for years always holy paladin in raid, but since balancing has been better you bring now a prot or ret

[hollow spear]

His argument is that dmg buffs have been more valuable than dr buffs

You're arguing against ghosts mate

[steel zinc]

yes sure but that is not the case and highly depends on the encounter. In general you want to have as much dr as possible.

[warm marlin]

so if i concoct a scenario that has not happened in "years or if ever" rogue buff is better

[hollow spear]

Nobody said atrophic poison has no value

But it has been dropped whereas others haven't been

[steel zinc]

It is the best prog raid buff, since prog is about living dmg is not that important.

[hollow spear]

Ergo it's less valuable historically

[honest dome]

no its not

xD

not even close

[steel zinc]

every endboss the last years you played with 1 or 2 rogues

[hollow spear]

That's not the argument

[steel zinc]

its not not even close.

[warm marlin]

3% dr is not saving you from most of the ways you die on prog

[plucky parrot]

You’ve also played with every other damage buff

[steel zinc]

That is the argument since you can stack the dr.

[hollow spear]

You're still arguing against strawmen

[steel zinc]

Go ask your healers what they think during prog playing without rogue and paladin. Good healer will notice

[hollow spear]

But you do you

[dusk stone]

3.6% dr tho and 3.6% * 20 people = 72% of a persons hp pool so

thats a lot of not having to heal a whole person

[swift tinsel]

that's not really how it works tho

[void hound]

whats the current read on sub vs assa for raid

[warm marlin]

atrophic healed my raid less than devo on bandit, mugzee, gally and got gapped on stix and sprocket

for our prog kills

[steel zinc]

Sin for pure st sub for anything else.

Sin is a pain with deathmark this season if you played Court as Sin with Deathmark nearly all cleave fights have the boss disapear or have target switches

[hidden jasper]

in aoe, at what target count do we opt for a shuriken storm instead of shadowstrike?

[void hound]

isnt fatebound a thing tho

[hollow spear]

Not with adds

Or cleave in general

[void hound]

[dusk stone]

ah yes the spec that self nerfs itself during aoe for m+, the aoe game mode

[lucid jackal]

Sin is still bad at target swapping even with dsm

[hollow spear]

Don't let all this distract you from warlocks not getting nerfed

[bleak night]

wdym nerf they need buffs

[dusk stone]

i for one welcome our new warlock overlords, better than that god damn uhdks

[hollow spear]

Send buffs!!!

[hollow spear]

Uhdk also seems pretty strong

[lucid jackal]

Dk and casters are broken af

[void hound]

how do we solve the rogue propaganda machine

[dusk stone]

*weak and needs buffs fixed that for you

[lucid jackal]

Everything else is a 2nd class citizen

[hollow spear]

Rwf going to be full purple and red

[void hound]

how do we compete with warlocks on this front

[hollow spear]

We don't

[sly shore]

So ready for this raid

[swift tinsel]

ddos your warlock friends

[hollow spear]

I already installed a details mod that removes all casters

[covert apex]

How's sub aoe this patch?

[dusk stone]

an awful lot of not warlock tbh

[hollow spear]

Sub will probably be better in m+ than it was in season 2

[vale pine]

looks like from a dos game

[keen dome]

Damn they made adarus look cool

[dusk stone]

there are sub keys and sin keys this season from what i have heard and the sin keys are less awful for sub

[meager whale]

Is sub only going to shine with new tier?

[dusk stone]

tier set is 17% overall dps increase over current tier

[sly shore]

they are really great

One for every boss

[loud brook]

quick small question, on like the near end of SD, like i only have 1 gcd left and im on 5/4 combo point, should I do another shadowstrike or send evis?

i feel like i face this situation a lot and its a bit awkward.

i think on 4 i do shadowstrike since finisher less than5 combo points does not get the buff

but im not sure on 5

[fringe geyser]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[barren jackal]

!MACRO

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[tepid trellis]

there is no such thing, if you mean through deeper strat, its just a passive buff to all finishers, but the answer is build if you arent at 6+

just tooltips being shit

[novel stump]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tawny eagle]

in this situation backstab is for the free DM cause is wont lose a random Unseen Blade proc and is in shadow blades, or is it that the sim is coded to do it because of premed and its coincidentally optimal to get the stack?

[loud brook]

i think you always backstab as the first build combo point spell after SD for DM stack

[hazy breach]

Backstab procs unseen blade

So not quite sure what youre asking

[lucid jackal]

The first generator in dance is backstab

In st

That's the rule

[tawny eagle]

but would there be a difference if shadowstrike is the first here and backstab the second one in this scenario?

[lucid jackal]

Yes

It has to be the first, because of premed

[flint parrot]

u need to consume your prem buff with bs

[tawny eagle]

shadowblades is up

[lucid jackal]

Premeditation it the talent that makes you want to backstab

It's not danse

[hazy breach]

In blades it doesnt really matter no

[tawny eagle]

ty

[lucid jackal]

Technically true but it seems more complicated to keep two different rulesets in mind

For literally no reason

[tawny eagle]

ye, just for my brain

[hazy breach]

Ye

[tawny eagle]

i just like to understand things

[hazy breach]

Easier to just think of it as "backstab with premed"

But ye if you accidently strike the next builder can be backstab in blades

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tawny eagle]

for a situation like this

[loud brook]

Wait actually?

[lucid jackal]

Only in blades yes

[tawny eagle]

I found that my questions got answered by fuu today. Now i feel stupid for not looking good enough.

[plain jay]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[signal moth]

How is sub going boys and gals?

Miss it

[loud brook]

In aoe we have basically no loss switching targets right?

[hazy breach]

Correct

[broken spindle]

why do we play with improved shuriken storm in st?

[hazy breach]

Because theres no other talent to take

If youre storming ever youre taking it

[loud brook]

We are like the few spec in the game have utility talents in spec talents tree for some reason lol

[lilac plume]

Why is it that no matter what I try I cannot change my talents

Everythings off CD whats going on?, spagetthi code again?

[glossy turtle]

when it comes to talents (and rotation) do we only change that once we get the tierset?

[cerulean sonnet]

wait is the ky'vezza ?? title not global for all characters? i earned it for my rogue and cannot use it cuz i did it with my warrior

[tribal blade]

yes i heard it's not account bound

for some weird reason

[cerulean sonnet]

i submitted a bug report and ticket and hope that gets solved

[sacred path]

I freaking stink need a wa pack and an hour on the dummies, which do you guys use

[swift tinsel]

its supposed to be but its bugged

ascension breaker and real deal are account-wide so I'm assuming they'll fix it at some point

[coarse agate]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[coarse agate]

There ya go salty

[sacred path]

Beauty tyvm

[upbeat folio]

how many shadow techniques stacks you need to store to get a fully combo after a finisher? is there any specific number or rule?

[quasi mantle]

enough for max combo points, which should be 7

[winged vale]

is kyveza running after anyone else's brann on opener even though he's in healer spec and im not using tricks?

really fucking up the flow of my opener

[hazy breach]

Shadow dance drops aggro

So yes

[left cradle]

hi guys, i need some thoughts about this. This season i have a m+ premade with some friends, our goal is 0'1%. We are tank war, sham heal, dk frost, dh and me. Im dubious beetwen sin and sub. I know this setup is played with sin, but i really want to play sub, now that it looks that this season is in a more ok state. Question is, how much am i griefing them for playing sub.

I ask here cause i obviously want a biased response. Ty

Is there gonna be that much lacking of prio/funneling with a sub?

[hazy breach]

Sub doesnt really funnel

Sin is the funnel

[left cradle]

yeah thats why ask

if theres gonna be a hurtful lacking of prio, given that sub doesnt funnel anymore

[hazy breach]

You have a DH already

So its fine

I feel like people are overfocusing on funnel this time around

[lucid jackal]

Just play a spec

If it doesn't look ideal
Swap specs

We aren't in legion

U can just press N and try sin if u feel sin would be better

Sin has a lot of strengths, but so does sub

Sin is probably going to have the most initial hype around it, but sub is very good too

[half comet]

is warpclaw trinket bad with more than 1 target

[lucid jackal]

Better? Idk if anybody knows for certain yet

[dusk stone]

so question, the ptr changes with +5 aura, SB fix and etc, is that stuff live now or just ptr?

like are we currently playing with last seasons tuning

[left cradle]

well yeah, but vaults tho, im already planning on trying to choose flexible items but sometimes i will have to choose one spec stat over the other

[dusk stone]

play whichever rogue spec is best for that specific key, sub has 2.5 atm

tbh tho i dont see why you cant just 1 trick sub this patch

[left cradle]

wdym 2.5

[left cradle]

this would be my ideal scenario

[dusk stone]

streets, dawnbreaker and maybe fg

[left cradle]

ah ye, i read somewhere that streets is unplayable as sin iirc

[dusk stone]

i am a sub one trick myself, but i want to push myself to play both this patch

at least 4/4 prob tbh

its not like last season at least where you can be a god and the dk still gaps you for just existing

[lucid jackal]

How would vault affect anything?

They are both dagger rogue specs that want similar stuff

There is so much inflexibility with gear anyway this tier, with boots, cloak, trinkets, weapons, embellishments all hard locked down

and for the first few weeks, u can't really be picky with vault gear

U take what U can get, even if its "bad stats"

ilvl is ilvl

and sin deosnt care about any stats

Sub doesnt like haste but thats it

[left cradle]

trinkets? versa vs crit?

[lucid jackal]

vers isn't bad for sin

trinkets are basiaclly the same tho

Both specs want "an on use" whether thats lily, prism, or forge

and then antenna

and then all the other options are kinda wahtever

U can get pacemaker, claw, crystal, ticking sack

[dusk stone]

speaking of pacemaker i have a hilarious droprate of that trinket

i got like 12 last season

figured aint no way this holds up and 1st run of fg i get champion one, exact same as last patch

[proper stone]

Hey guys n gals, can I get some help with a few qs plz? M+ questions

1. How many targa are we trying to throw rupt on whilst tank gathering and is it important to continue uptime on it with ST?
2. I’ve seen ppl saying BP is now 4+ targs is that the case for both in and out of dance, and do we rather fok or backstab OUTside of dance?

[swift tinsel]

You’ll ideally have rupture on targets that’ll live 10-12sec at least but I usually just throw 4-5 out on the bigger mobs until the tank plants and then send cds

[winged kernel]

how we lookin for 2 target cleave vs sin

[young path]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel Dratnos has my new favorite description for rogue. “Aggressively Mid”

[swift tinsel]

That’s incredibly fitting, I gotta respect it

[lilac stag]

Yep. Almost spit my drink out it landed so well.

[proper stone]

Thankyou, is BP now on 4+ targs though and SS on 4+ or do we fok?

[lilac stag]

Wrong spec to fok

[pulsar hemlock]

So are we wanting forge AND netherprism? Double on-use?

[swift tinsel]

It’s possibly on the table

[loud brook]

I think it depends on a lot things. BP is weird I’m getting different answers all over the place

[swift tinsel]

Pretty sure fuu narrowed it down to 3 FW/4 targets

Unless something changed in the last day or two

[tepid trellis]

Its just 4

[steel zinc]

4 and with blades?

[tepid trellis]

Just 4

[steel zinc]

So even with no blades always 4? How come?

[tepid trellis]

Nimble nerfed. Bp not

[short radish]

bp buffed

[swift tinsel]

Delete fw

And sf

[maiden oar]

right after you got the fw tracker put into aui?

or do you mean you still do it with 3 fws and its just 4 in and out of blades

[steel zinc]

Hey that was my idea

XD

[maiden oar]

[tepid trellis]

Neutral with 3 fw up and a gain with 4 targets

[maiden oar]

i see

[steel zinc]

I modified the atrocity weak aura to just show up when x target count is met

[swift tinsel]

BP overtaking nimble at half of nimbles cap is a complete design failure

Gg

[maiden oar]

i like the fw thingy anyway in case i have to be in front of a boss and i wanna know if i can backstab first dance global or not

[steel zinc]

It's fine you evis if you wannt to kill the prio target

[maiden oar]

buff it again

[swift tinsel]

That’s entirely not the point

[tepid trellis]

It is design failure

[maiden oar]

and i like having dance/symbols up and to the left

took some getting used to bc theyre not next to sht but its pleasant

[tepid trellis]

Ive had Them like that since season 3 dragonflight

[maiden oar]

its good

are you tracking unseen blade still

[swift tinsel]

I feel like I should

[maiden oar]

im considering adding that but i do a good job of remembering disorienting in my head

and idk if the 20s ever comes up

[swift tinsel]

I had LE’s tracker for a while but disabled after redoing a bunch of stuff

[tepid trellis]

I do not. No

[maiden oar]

oh ok ty

[swift tinsel]

I need to add it to my outlaw pack in case I ever lose enough sanity to play it

Which if that happens, shoot me

[maiden oar]

id like to play outlaw more but the gearings so restrictive

[swift tinsel]

It’s stinky

[maiden oar]

maybe i need to gear 2 rogues

idk i think its fun

well maybe less fun without 11.1 tier

[swift tinsel]

I happen upon enough haste gear to make it work stat-wise but the gameplay just isn’t there for me

[maiden oar]

its cool to roll so many buffs every time

[swift tinsel]

I don’t vibe with crackshot at all

[maiden oar]

ah ok

unlucky

[swift tinsel]

The RtB stuff isn’t that bad

[maiden oar]

yeah i think its fine i just dont like holding kir

so i like always getting a ton of buffs

[swift tinsel]

Ye I like it better when you’re cycling through buffs more often

[maiden oar]

specs fun overall i just dont ever have a reason to play it bc the gearing is incompatible and i want to play whatever the best raid spec is

[swift tinsel]

I just like sub bc it does what I like the best which is big bongo burst windows

[maiden oar]

has there ever been a tier where outlaw was the raid guy

subs my favorite too but i refuse to not play the best guy for prog

[swift tinsel]

AFAIK it usually oscillates between sub and sin

[maiden oar]

i see

[swift tinsel]

But I don’t raid at a level where spec choice matters much at all

[solemn creek]

Shadowland.. 1st tier before assa buff a few week later 😅

[maiden oar]

oh ok

thanks

[solemn creek]

Ans maybe shadowland fated raid.. it was insane

[swift tinsel]

The outlaw set that was popular with non-outlaw players but disliked by otps lol

[solemn creek]

I just play whatever is best. I like all the specs

[swift tinsel]

I liked Dust outlaw tho

[maiden oar]

yea i think every rogue spec is fun

but i have only really played the 11.1 iterations of them

[swift tinsel]

I’m learning to like sin in dungeons for next season lol

[solemn creek]

Will bounce between sub and assa.. and maybe outlaw.. gearing all of them isnt that bad

[swift tinsel]

Sub is all I’m gonna play in raid

[maiden oar]

i played for 4 weeks in df prepatch and quit to go back to xiv until 11.1 hehe

well i did delves in 11.0 but besides that i missed out on so much rogue

[solemn creek]

For prog* i will do the same

[maiden oar]

wish i got to try dust in real content

[swift tinsel]

Same I got too annoyed with animation lock coup and went mage season one

[maiden oar]

id have liked shadowdust for sure

[swift tinsel]

It was awesome

[short radish]

they made dust bearable for half a season

then they took it away

we dont realise what we truly wanted until we lose it

RIP dust my beloved

[swift tinsel]

It sucked that it was basically the fix for having flag and blades having different cooldowns

[maiden oar]

that sucks

[swift tinsel]

Bc if dust existed with 1.5min on both it would be bonkers

[tepid trellis]

mentioning shadowdust

is banable

[maiden oar]

[tepid trellis]

[swift tinsel]

As the spreadsheeter of the Old Lore, I get it

Not wanting to see it mentioned lol

[tepid trellis]

worst part is, it what just a project for myself for our fyrakk speed kills

that i just ended up making public

[swift tinsel]

Continued tradition with Rik timing

[maiden oar]

was dust miserable on really long fights because you ran out of vanishes

or was it ok in practice

[short radish]

okay once you had the stealthi spreadsheet

[maiden oar]

oh i see

[short radish]

but it was kinda aids

[tepid trellis]

i still have it in my docs account

[short radish]

you were sending naked flags at times

[tepid trellis]

and i get ptsd everytime i log into it

[short radish]

keep it for dragonflight classic

[swift tinsel]

RIP to the triple Sectech trickster opener

[maiden oar]

i have all my old xiv spreadsheets saved too

similar feeling

[swift tinsel]

I need to clear out old docs

I still have tier and trinket test sheets from df

[short radish]

its kinda fun going through your old google docs

like going memory lane

[swift tinsel]

Before whats their name programmed a bot to hit a dummy thousands of times lol

I have my old 2007 MacBook backup on there somewhere

Iirc there were BC/Wotlk screenshots on it lol

[tepid trellis]

like wtf type drugs was i on for this

i just kept trying new shit i guess

[short radish]

[tepid trellis]

TBF

the most annoying part was making them all into an MRT note

so people could use Kaze

to tell them when to cd

[maiden oar]

this looks fun

wish i played then

[short radish]

no

you do not

[bleak night]

[tepid trellis]

fun when the kill timer is what you predict it to be, not fun when it changes every single week

[maiden oar]

yea thats true

[short radish]

unironically, it was kinda okay on prog

because it was consistent

instead of having everyones random alts on each different boss

and different roster

so sometimes you kill in 4 mins instead of 5 minutes

but you didnt account for that

and now everything is fucked

season 1 of dust in TWW was good though

[tepid trellis]

snapshotting rupture in dance

[short radish]

it was just send with cooldowns

and then if the boss is lookign close to die

you send another vanish early

[maiden oar]

oh ok makes sense

tyty

[hearty mango]

Does Sub Rogue really take Cheat Death? Saw that on wowhead for M+

[short radish]

why wouldnt we?

[hearty mango]

I figure Elusiveness would be better

[short radish]

why?

you can take elusiveness if you want

but why

[tight sequoia]

@tepid trellis make sure to link me that for next raid

[hearty mango]

20% reduction on individual hits

[tight sequoia]

Ty

[short radish]

yeah but we already have like 35% passive DR from existing

[tight sequoia]

The things that wont kill you wont kill you

The one shots that kill you will kill you

[hearty mango]

That makes sense

[short radish]

you only really take elusiveness if you're doing content where you 100% need it otherwise youre dead

[tight sequoia]

Which is never

[short radish]

well

[hearty mango]

Apparently I am pretty bad at Sin, so trying to see how Sub goes

[short radish]

we had nokhud offensive

[tight sequoia]

Fuck that

[short radish]

where you took it on 3rd boss

[tight sequoia]

Disgusting

Ass

[hearty mango]

The last time I played it with Venthyr Shadowlands

[tight sequoia]

M+

dont even mention it

[lucid jackal]

You don't

[tight sequoia]

The hurricane boss

OMFG

[hearty mango]

What is best guide for Sub Rotation?

[tight sequoia]

THE HURRICANE BOSS

[short radish]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tight sequoia]

AHHHHHHHHHHH

[short radish]

pick any of them

wowhead generally pretty good though

[hearty mango]

Thank you

[tight sequoia]

https://tenor.com/view/wind-rain-gif-13511728193782177953

[hearty mango]

What is difficulty of Sub Rogue?

How important is keeping rupture on targets?

Can we skip it and just black powder?

[maiden oar]

i probably still do wow is really fun

[tight sequoia]

The difficulty comes from managing cooldowns

[maiden oar]

this game owns

[tight sequoia]

You didnt play halondrus huh

[maiden oar]

yea i wish i did

[tight sequoia]

https://tenor.com/view/david-rose-gif-3214199033367100027

Sub rogue was op back then but hell

Halondrus was so

https://tenor.com/view/tim-gunn-eww-gross-yuck-meme-disgusting-sticks-tongue-out-gif-1716626911192888665

[hearty mango]

Is there a good rule with rupture?

That what I hated is tab target dotting

[maiden oar]

[tight sequoia]

Check da guide

[hearty mango]

Ok starting with Method since that's a new source for me

[next pulsar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hearty mango]

What's that?

[tepid trellis]

sims

[hearty mango]

Why does it say Sub sims higher thjan Ass for Dungeon Slice

[tepid trellis]

cuz it does

[hearty mango]

I thought Ass was S Tier

[tepid trellis]

dslice sims has nothing to do with actual m+ performance

[hearty mango]

I was super excited to loot "Lily of Eternal Weave" seems like it's not overpowered for Sub just decent

[lucid jackal]

This game is significantly more complicated than any individal sim

[hearty mango]

Ok makes sense

I got excited for a second lol

OH SHIT

I am reading @tepid trellis guide lets goo LOL

So far so good 😄

I have to get use to using stuff at 6 CP or more seems bit high but sure I will figure out why with more reading so use to 5 being magic number

[tepid trellis]

there is no hidden secret for it 6+ is just better dmg wise than 5+ now

[hearty mango]

Is there a way to bind Shadow Blades + Flag on same GCD?

[tepid trellis]

there is but you shouldnt

[hearty mango]

Ok thank you just trying to think ahead with CDs

made me think of combining for ease

[tepid trellis]

they are used in specific sequencce

[hearty mango]

Ok thank you

[rocky ocean]

[hearty mango]

I still don't understand rule of thumb with rupture even with last line here

I assume means we keep rupture on all targets that will stay alive for 15 seconds or longer?

[tepid trellis]

yes

correct

you do it between dances

when you have nothing else to do

[hearty mango]

Ok that makes lot more sense

[tepid trellis]

tbh i prolly should merge that section with the hero talent one

cuz trickster changes alot

of it

[hearty mango]

It seems that binding Shadow Dance + Symbols is fine

Rotation is pretty much CDS > 2 sets of Dance + Symbol repeat

[tepid trellis]

not really, (has to do with the 2nd dance in your big burst window)

because of supercharger

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[tepid trellis]

nvm

not that one

[hearty mango]

made me think of macroing because of 35 sec and 55 sec

[tepid trellis]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[hearty mango]

So maybe fine to use macro for 35 & 55, but use individual ones for the CD phase

Thank you

[chrome palm]

You’re just creating another hot key for no reason

Should just press them separately

[ember lintel]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hearty mango]

My only macro right now is Shadowblades

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea
/cast Symbols of Death
/cast Shadow Blades

Which I use after Flag Rupture

[tepid trellis]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[tepid trellis]

thats pretty much all that is recommended

[ember lintel]

is it recommended to have a weakaura to track flawless form?

[chrome palm]

You are wasting premeditation when you macro dance to blades

[hearty mango]

seems to imply it's fine to macro those together

[tepid trellis]

to see if its up, yes

[ember lintel]

any recommended one or can i just pull something random from wago

[tepid trellis]

good catch thats not supposed to be there

the blades that is

[hearty mango]

I am so confused again lol

So at least this should be true fine to macero

[tepid trellis]

its basically supposed to be the same as here

but on AoE it matters less

[hearty mango]

Trinket + Shadowblades + Sectech?

Is it right there at least lol

[tepid trellis]

yes

trinket + blades

is a fine maccro

[hearty mango]

Can't we macro sec technique also with blades? Since always used together

[proven plover]

hit him with the blades before clones hit to fully confuse him

[tepid trellis]

xD

[tepid trellis]

if you never end up delaying cds then yes you could do that

[hearty mango]

If this pic is considered perfect rotation than seems OK from that

Ok thank you

[chrome palm]

Yes but

If you’re doing a key or something

You might hold blades

If you have all cds up

[hearty mango]

I only started 30 min don't want any confusion lol

[chrome palm]

And the boss has like 100mil hp

[warm marlin]

the tech there is to macro sectec to blades and not the other way around

[tepid trellis]

sub is basically an anti macro spec

there is always

[warm marlin]

but then youre not saving a keybind

[tepid trellis]

a "BUT"