subtlety

[vale pine]

you play around it on lower target counts

[torpid silo]

okayokay

but in ST for example, 1 shurkien storm isn't enough to get 6-7 combo points for the second coup no ?

[short radish]

why do people want to play with tornado so much now

[torpid silo]

my bad i didn't mean torando, i meant storm

x)

[short radish]

thank fuck.

booo tornado

[lilac stag]

Outlaw warped their brain

[short radish]

wrist and brains ruined

[torpid silo]

i mean, from a new player to the spec/class , tornado sounds pretty good no ?

[lilac stag]

wonder which went first.

[short radish]

it is... but like its such a pain to play around it

[torpid silo]

why ?

[lilac stag]

Where you think it would be good, it’s not.

[short radish]

takes up a gcd for one

youre stuck doing finishers

[lilac stag]

so you use it to farm CDR

[torpid silo]

i mean it takes up a gcd but frees 4 no ? x)

[torpid silo]

wait really ? not in dance ?

[short radish]

doesnt sync with trickster

[mighty crow]

how's sub doin against assassin?

[short radish]

it probably feels better in DS

but it's just really really awkward to play with

you can try it out in m+

and you'll see why

[torpid silo]

okayokay

thankss

[short radish]

dont be afraid to try things

except builds without flag

dont try those

[torpid silo]

xddd

tbh i'm just reading stuff and trying to understand how it all works right now

[mighty crow]

cause id love to play sub again if its on par with assassin

[torpid silo]

its very confusing

[lilac stag]

Welcome to why it should be deleted along with 12 other talents.

[torpid silo]

i've never even played dps before

[short radish]

just play it then

[torpid silo]

huhhhh

[short radish]

subs kinda confusing until everything clicks

[lilac stag]

If you’re asking it likely doesn’t mater for your content.

[short radish]

then its comfy af

[torpid silo]

I see

[mighty crow]

i try to push keys and what not its just been a while since iv played rogue

[lilac stag]

wait and see as you’re pushing then which you prefer

[stoic reef]

Guys

[lilac stag]

spoiler: ||it’s assa most likely.||

[stoic reef]

Do we no longer use the rotten talent for m+

[peak jetty]

As fuu told me. Assa is just easier to pull of in m+. If you are coming back and mainly play m+, I would start with assa and work my way up to sub ^^

[torpid silo]

is outlaw "faster" than sub ?

[short radish]

yes. dont play outlaw unless you don't value your wrist health

[torpid silo]

cause that's what i got told, but now apparently i have to press 81 different buttons in between 2 gcds

[torpid silo]

is it that bad ? lmao

[short radish]

kinda

its a bit of a meme

but outlaw is very high apm

[torpid silo]

okayokay

[short radish]

honestly should probably play assi

its the "simplest" rogue spec

not to try discourage you from sub

but it is a bit whacky

[torpid silo]

it's the one of the 3 that doesn't appeal to me

tbh

[short radish]

based

fuck assi

[torpid silo]

xdd

[steel jolt]

assination

[torpid silo]

i like the fantasy of sub
i like the idea of a high apm spec with outlaw
but nothing appeals from assa

[peak jetty]

Imho assi has a nice flow to it. You got more brain cells available for learning the new content.

[torpid silo]

it'll be an alt so I'll already know the content tbh

i'm a healer main, i just wanna pick up a dps for fun x)

[lilac stag]

Assa is way easier to just pickup for most people.

sub once you get it sorted isn’t hard, just awkward and can be a pain to recover from when you screw up cds

[torpid silo]

got it

[dry plank]

Play rogue and suggest to all your friends and relatives. We need huge playerbase )))

[torpid silo]

xddd

[mighty crow]

am i dumb or sub harder to play lol

[lilac stag]

Sub is just not intuitive for most wow players

[mighty crow]

ill figure it out i suppose

sub is one of my favorite specs so lol

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[haughty mural]

As always it’s also subjective

[void ocean]

Im also not quite sure what intuitive means in terms of wow...

[haughty mural]

Button glow Button press big boom

[short radish]

most specs youre always doing something

and pressing things off cd

sub you dont

sub has big periods (multiple seconds) of downtime

[void ocean]

you dont if u want to be optimal... i doubt many classes have optimal rotation intuitive

[short radish]

which most specs dont have

[void ocean]

unless they r rly barred of spell/talent interactions

[hazy breach]

All specs have small things like backstab in dance or cb timings yes

[void ocean]

like you could play sub by just pressing ss and evis during SD and eventually using sec tech sometimes inbetween, id call that intuitive

but thats not optimal

[hazy breach]

But very few specs do as poorly as sub if you dont know what youre doing

[void ocean]

well I like to believe ppl at least read tooltip of the spell 😄

[lilac stag]

Look how poor one button is for sub. If it was actually intuitive that would play better.

[short radish]

thats asking a bit much from people tbh

yeah sub is really really jank if you dont play optimally

youre punished way more

[lilac stag]

Why can’t I stack my CDs in a macro?

Why are they all different timings

[hazy breach]

But like if you try to just yolo play it and press whatever is glowing, youll be doing way less as sub than as ret or fury

[lilac stag]

Why can’t I press buttons out of dance?

[short radish]

why can't i macro symbols to dance

[hazy breach]

When you read up and realize that you should be doing almost nothing until you pop cds it makes more sense

[short radish]

why cant i macro blades to flag

[lilac stag]

Why can’t I just reroll mage

[torpid silo]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[void ocean]

do we know a dps loss of macroing blades and flag?

[short radish]

yes

flag lasts longer than blades

and the end of flag does more damage

which is why you flag -> rupture -> dance -> bs/ss -> sectech -> then blades

but thats not really intuitive

you're kinda ramping

i guess

[void ocean]

i know, but im questioning how bad u would do if u rly macroed

i guess it cant be more than like 5%

[hazy breach]

My guess is like 3-4%

[haughty mural]

Blades wouldn’t even cover both dances then

[void ocean]

i meant more in terms of just macroing everything together

if u fired flag, blades, sd and sod

and trinket etc

[short radish]

dunno

go sim it yourself

[void ocean]

i dunno how to change apl

[short radish]

unlugg

[void ocean]

never tinkered with it

[hazy breach]

Stuff like this is really annoying because you have to change a bunch of lines

But ye probably around 5%

[vale pine]

its whatever during questing

[wooden kernel]

what are y'all running for brann?

[vale pine]

heal bran typically

[wooden kernel]

sweet ty, any of his co nduit thinngs matter? or just whatever kinda?

[vale pine]

flag and dance is something you should not macro

but you can macro many things with litte trade offs

[void ocean]

I know 😄

[short radish]

dps bran does zdps if youre dps
tank bran pulls random shit and just dies
heal brann is the only thing that keeps you alive

[vale pine]

like dance + tea is fine

symbols with dance is not that much worse, even tho i would not recommend it its fine for delves/open world

[steel jolt]

in my experience healer Brann also pulls random shit but that seems to be a new problem in s3

[vale pine]

secret + cold blood same thing

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

backstab in dance can be skipped too, but if you want to use, the 2nd macro is helpful

[void ocean]

I was just pondering in my head how badly would a guy do, who knows a thing or two about WoW, but never ever played sub

just based on reading spell tooltips

and trying to play intuitively

turns out probably between 5-10% worse

[short radish]

about as much damage as one button rotation would do

[lilac stag]

Tank dps

[short radish]

+20% or something

[void ocean]

warrior tank? 😄

[lilac stag]

priest tank

[torpid silo]

i just downloaded a WA package
and i am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO confused as to what anything does

[void ocean]

it usually gives u info

about cooldowns, buff duration etc

[torpid silo]

no but
ALL this ?

[short radish]

press escape

and get out of the WA page

[torpid silo]

but i'm trying to understand what each thing does cause like what if a thing pops up and i don't even know why

[fleet wharf]

They don't all glow. Try doing some dummy rotation first

[lilac stag]

From guildies experience over the past couple expansions. They can fuck around on assa and be ok but they legit hate managing dots. Sub they try to look at it and just say fuck it after a week or so.

[void ocean]

gotta time that adrenaline rush with SBS

[odd knoll]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[steel jolt]

when you're learning a spec it's a good idea to read the guide thoroughly and mouseover your buffs to understand what's important

[void ocean]

blizz needs to bring lvling back

😄

just remember how we used to learn classes, u start with 2 spells, read about em, try to think how to use them... then the third spell comes etc...

by we I mean the millenials 😄

[short radish]

yeah but its a very different game now

learning by levelling doesnt accomplish much

the rotation you do while levelling is different from the rotation at end game

some core parts are the same

but when you only have half a talent tree

its kinda just moot

[sacred path]

Sub is fun and you can clear the delves and shit pretty easy to practice rot I find

[fleet wharf]

I recommend getting Harrek's Advanced tooltips if you're learning a new spec, it actually makes it a lot easier to learn/understand different interactions

[void ocean]

yea but u get to have steady absorbtion of knowledge

maybe too steady

[fleet wharf]

like it breaks down what talents affect what

[torpid silo]

anyone knows what the 3 dots are on LE's WA's ?

[limpid sage]

actually huge

[fleet wharf]

thistle tea charges

[torpid silo]

oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

makes sense

[fleet wharf]

the blue circle next to sec tech is your CB cd

[torpid silo]

great thanks

[vale pine]

you probably don't need all of that

[glad cedar]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[torpid silo]

that was for all 3 specs i'm pretty sure

[sour forum]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty mural]

Yes

[slate marlin]

In my experience, i read tslents the most while im leveling, lot of people who boost just copy builds and dont know what interactions there are

[short radish]

you're probably smarter than the average wow player

the amount of ppl who get level boosted is probably much lower than you'd think

and the average wow player is kinda garbage

[fleet wharf]

I just need more of them to step foot into mythic for me

[vale pine]

The new feature of tomb stones in m+ is funny

and ghosts

i rly like it

[steel jolt]

in delves you mean?

[vale pine]

*delves

yes

but would be fun in m+ as well ^^

[steel jolt]

agreed

[keen dome]

Haha, it would

[crystal bone]

that would be hilarious if it was in m+

[alpine wraith]

you see like 100 tombstones before the spymaster boss

hmmm

in taza vesh

[crystal bone]

[alpine wraith]

TRIANGLE CIRCLE SQUARE

someone goes wrong they die

AZsdqed2efwefearfewrf

[crystal bone]

tazavesh hardmode weekly deathless challenge is such a neat idea

i was a classic hc fan for a while

ive never done this dungeon tho, even back in SL

hope its good

[alpine wraith]

it is a good idea people will just be asses about it

and even if you fail the deathless you still get hero track

[crystal bone]

u mean from bosses or just the reward at the end?

is hero instead of myth

[still anvil]

i feel stupid for asking this, but is there any reason to run improved ss on st before having the new set?

[alpine wraith]

bosses still drop their loot

as hero track

it is tuned to be like a +10

[crystal bone]

is the reward at the end from the dungeon loot table?

or anywhere

[alpine wraith]

there are no good talents that increase st

sf is fake

saves like 10 energy every min

wooo

you can stab ONCE if fight lasts 3 or 4 mins

big win

[still anvil]

but no loss

[alpine wraith]

bosses still drop loot iirc

the end chest is just the special one like we had in the DF one

[crystal bone]

nice ok

[gaunt bluff]

do u guys think first week hardmode tazavesh sub would be good for it?

or outlaw could be better cus its more tanky?

[chrome palm]

sub burst will likely be good

for any "prog" content

also im not sure how much more tanky outlaw is in this respect

[gaunt bluff]

just meant outlaw has defensives more often

[chrome palm]

i imagine you want to run cheat death, much of outlaws survivability is from evasion CDR, which is not a factor if youre running cheat

i think sub will be fine defensively

[alpine wraith]

shadowstep can save you on some situations

but if you are good with hook it can also be fine

on postmaster hooktail and the trio from the colosseum

[vale pine]

yes

subtlety is good in m+

[gaunt bluff]

👌

[alpine wraith]

sadly we might get ignored for more tanky classes or people doing weird dungeon comps

as they want 0 risk

[gaunt bluff]

I mean i wont pug the deathless lol thatd take an entire day

[vale pine]

you can play sub perfectly fine:

• In raid
• In m+ farming
• In 11 delves
• Doing the seasonal delve challange
• Open world content

[gaunt bluff]

just making my life easier if i can

[chrome palm]

also sub has the benefit of waiting for cds before doing the pull

[clever delta]

what about delves 12

"fuu

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

what do you consider 12 delve?

[clever delta]

https://tenor.com/view/rockwelltrading-rockwell-trading-markusheitkoetter-markus-heitkoetter-funny-gif-7389217313884744929

[north schooner]

ok but what about pet battles?

[vale pine]

😭

[alpine wraith]

you can try in pvp too

just it will be interesting

[soft oriole]

Sub in pet battles is goated

[steel zinc]

@tepid trellis No German Debuff so far this season.

[mighty citrus]

We have debuffs?

[alpine wraith]

yea if you are german you just invaded our banks

also FUn Gal FollY

[keen dome]

Haha

[void ocean]

dafuq is seasonal delve challenge

[alpine wraith]

explain yourselves

[alpine wraith]

the bar you fill by doing bountifuls

maybe you're asking because you need renown 2 for maps

[void ocean]

REICH-CLICK FOR ZIE SETTINGS

[alpine wraith]

im leaving them as reiter

just so people know we got invaded

and reagenzien

[keen dome]

It can be spanish, or french, or russian, or dutch

It's hilarious

[void ocean]

what bar

delver journey?

[keen dome]

Yeah

[void ocean]

fck did i complete that in s2

i had t

what was the reward

[lilac stag]

bountiful delve things

[keen dome]

Gonna grind it like a moleman

[bleak night]

there are apparently people already with brann at lvl 100

insane moleperson hours

[keen dome]

fucking how

[lilac stag]

As soon as maintenance ends: LF Warcrate farming group.

[keen dome]

I've done a loada delves and he's not even 81!

[bleak night]

they farm the portals that spawn

[keen dome]

I would be doing the same, but I'm open palm slamming the raid on normal

[lilac stag]

I’m assuming some type of exploit. He’s not supposed to gain that much xp without bountiful

[keen dome]

Waking up. Doing campaign quest and slamming normal

[bleak night]

each portal gives him exp so you like spam t1s or some shit

i didnt look too deep into it

i prefer to avoid the moles

[lilac stag]

I leave wed, so need to be good about my time usage Tuesday. Not back til Monday night.

[keen dome]

Oh, ye, gotta be optimal then

A buddy wants to slam M+ with me so once normal is done I'm going into the dungeon mines.

Not sure when I'll begin Heroic pugging

[bleak night]

day one aotc pug

gg

[keen dome]

I wish

maybe if I convince WR people to join my pug and then they pretend to follow me RLing but instead just do the fights.

[still anvil]

I feel like lvl 100 brann healing would've made kyveza so much more relaxed, compared to <50 💀

[void ocean]

China jails 😄

[lilac stag]

Get PvP trinket and then key what I can.

[keen dome]

Day 1 720 dagger though

That's gonna go hard since it's only 60 gilded so only..

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[fervent elm]

bro how could people have brann at level 100 bro i barely have him at 81

[lilac stag]

Delves I can hopefully do from the hotel.

I have 8 keys ready

[keen dome]

8??

I've only managed to find 6

I'm slacking

[lilac stag]

renown

[keen dome]

How many gilded does a +7 give. 12?

[lilac stag]

10? Is it 12? Fuck

Idk

[keen dome]

yeah fuck if I can remember

16!

[void ocean]

damn if it wasnt for Naguura I wouldnt find out about that tailored fiber for cloak

[keen dome]

no, that's 10.

Okay it's 10 per 7 so 6 7's for a 720.

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/monica-friends-seven-geller-gif-7303089

[lilac stag]

You mean the one listed in every cloak guide?

[void ocean]

guess how many I've read so far

tho I did watch a video of obtaining cloak and upgrading it, didnt say jack shit about it

damn u Kelani

[lilac stag]

Just takes 1

[void ocean]

(I think it was Kelani)

[lilac stag]

idk he’s usually good about upgrades

[keen dome]

How many gilded do we get from Delves again? It's 30, right?

[void ocean]

21

[lilac stag]

And likely said it’s just like crests. Use any lvl mats for the work order

ask me how I know this

[keen dome]

Thanks! Okay, so 21 from delves and then 49 from M+, easy

[void ocean]

u bought max lvl

[lilac stag]

no. I had kalani’s video randomly start playing in the background and I let it go

[void ocean]

bountiful gives u a few more

[keen dome]

Ye, that's what I thought.

[void ocean]

i mean the hidden trove, sry

[keen dome]

Ye

21 from the 3 gilded, 9 from the hidden trove. Or somehing around that. So really just three or four 7's to daggertown

[void ocean]

3 or 4 timed* 🤣

[keen dome]

I'm confident.

[void ocean]

No leaving this season 🤣

[keen dome]

Super curious how that's gonna shake out

[void ocean]

Oh I forgot u r a Pug Lord

[keen dome]

ye

I'm a little worried Normal is gonna be TOO HARD for pugs, but I can't imagine it's gonna be an issue. Normal is just push W and occasionally push a defensive.

[void ocean]

Im more curious about that deathless Tazavesh HardMode

Thats gonna be a proper flaming ground

[stoic reef]

guys

[void ocean]

Imagine like 5 bosses in dying on some trash

[stoic reef]

why do we not use the rotten talent anymore

[keen dome]

Server lags on the final 10% of the final boss and someone dies.

[void ocean]

Cause Fuu said so

(should be closely related to having a lot of crit this season and other options proved stronger)

[stoic reef]

hmm

which means till we have that much crit we should play it

[void ocean]

And around here we do what Fuu says

[alpine wraith]

no it is because other talents give more

even right now

basically rotten was a kind of crutch

and after the last BP buff it is even less important to have FW up

[hollow spear]

Defensives are the literal devil to normal gameurs

[keen dome]

That's true

I have tried for many years to get people I know who are casual or less engaged to use HP potions

but alas.

[void ocean]

Snape would be furious

[wooden kernel]

we're not crafting anything til next week correct>?

[void ocean]

I mean u can, if u dont mind recrafting

Wouldnt be the end of the world

I got 2 691 daggers this week so Im fine

[hollow spear]

That reminds me that I have to get the new health potions

[grand wyvern]

idk if we really need them, i feel like the old one still full my hp

[void ocean]

Ehm

Id ask ur healer what he thinks

🤣

[grand wyvern]

he should be grateful i make him parse better >_>

[fallow nimbus]

I have 200 old hp potions and will use these first

[keen dome]

old r3 are 3.6m

new r2 are 5.3m

[void ocean]

U can sell em just sayin

[keen dome]

They are considerably better

[void ocean]

Guys its either hp or health potion

[fallow nimbus]

What's their name?

[void ocean]

Hp potion is health potion potion

[grand wyvern]

potm of the moon

[fallow nimbus]

Healthpoint potion my friend

[void ocean]

Who tf calls it like that 🤣

[keen dome]

hp potion

[grand wyvern]

its hitpoints not healthpoints btw

[keen dome]

healing power potion

[lean arrow]

How is sub this patch?

[void ocean]

Horsepower

[keen dome]

great!

purple!

[astral axle]

grape!

[void ocean]

We think, therefore we are

[lean arrow]

I like grapes too

[keen dome]

I fucking hate you Brann

[lean arrow]

Is it hard in dungeons to play?

or maybe harder in raids?

[wooden kernel]

dumb question- nimble flurry is melee range correct?

[hollow spear]

It's pretty hard in delves

[wooden kernel]

tooltip says "nearby"

[north schooner]

like 8y so a bit longer

[fallow nimbus]

Tricks brann and hope for the best

[void ocean]

Lvl 80 bran is tanky af

Did 11 today, he only died 2-3 times

His own fault tho

[keen dome]

Brann will sometimes suicide on the succ on ?? kyveza

and it's both frustrating and hilarious

[fallow nimbus]

My dh got obliterated in the first pack in the new delve on 11

[lean arrow]

So is sub hard in dungeons or raids at all?

[fallow nimbus]

The hunt and instant dead

[keen dome]

No, it's not hard. It's a complex spec to learn but it isn't hard to play once you spend time learning it's rules.

[honest void]

this was the most annoying shit

brann embraced his inner hunter to disengage into a mechanic

[keen dome]

lmao yeah

I just did another pull and he walked into one and died

[lean arrow]

I see i see 😮

[honest void]

also after killing this queen, sub defo could take some inspiration from her theme

[keen dome]

Ye

My best is 70%~ and I'm just having fun trying it unlike the other two who just.. sucked.

[opaque cairn]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[keen dome]

Blizz, for fucks sake: make Flag reset on death.

[void ocean]

just stop dying

[keen dome]

I would but Brann is throwing

Not me, I'm flawless. He's throwing every single pull

[opaque cairn]

hey got a question.
I ran a Halls of Atonement on M0 with some buds yesterday and noticed that my Flagellation was stuck at 1 Stack during 3rd Boss.
Did i just hallucinate it or is it either a new bug or a display bug?

[void ocean]

:me fighting with half the Delve for my dear life:

• bran: look, theres a treasure around here

[ivory sorrel]

Any good beginner guides for rogues

[chrome palm]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[keen dome]

here, in your trying time, enjoy this 1 piece of rank 1 bismuth ore

[ivory sorrel]

Thanks

I’m trying to get the “core” rotation down before learning all the extras

But gyat there’s so many keybinds

[vale pine]

agree

[glossy fossil]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[honest void]

ofc you do, you have good taste Fuu

always have

wonder how that inspirationw ould take form though

[tepid trellis]

by giving it to dh instead

[keen dome]

NO 😠

[vale pine]

new void dh spec confirmed, stealthi 9/8/2015

[honest void]

damn

stealthi been a prophet since way back

[soft oriole]

Going into big cds again (post opener), I often wont have a 2nd shadow dance charge in time for 2nd sectec, should I send a danceless sectec with the symbols before this or is this normal?

[warm marlin]

this means you screwed up earlier and oversent dances

[dry zodiac]

That means you used too many dances in between CDs

[soft oriole]

Interesting, I'm pairing every sectec with a symbols + dance. Is that wrong?

[fluid moth]

It can be if you don’t have enough CDR to get double dance / setech in shadow blades with full dance uptime.

I normally find myself doing 2-1-1-2 dances between blade cooldowns

If that makes sense

[soft oriole]

Yeah so you sort of hold sectec for 5-10 seconds before 2nd cds?

[warm marlin]

30 seconds is a general rule

you can go much closer if you have planned it out

[tepid trellis]

to have enough cdr on dance you usually go like this
2-1-1-2-1-0-2 then repeat from start
2s being your flag windows
1s being regular dance
0 being nothing maybe a dry symbol/sectech

[soft oriole]

Okay, I'll keep that in mind and practice some more 🙂

thanks all

[paper iron]

hello stealthi i m a big fan of you

[weak flame]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[weak flame]

for number 1 we use bp in single target ?

[warm marlin]

bp is not a maintenance finisher, so stop using it too. just backstab

[weak flame]

im sorry but i dont really get what is a maintenance finisher

[hazy breach]

Should just be any finisher really

[warm marlin]

its a fancy way to say rupture and technically slice and dice, but that should never fall off

[weak flame]

oh okay

then why we dont bp instead of bs

keep stored cp ?

[fluid moth]

Yes

[weak flame]

makes sense thx

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[weak flame]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[weak flame]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[dusk stone]

is the sim spreadsheet correct? sub tricker is ahead of DS sin by like 300k?

[weak flame]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[tepid trellis]

yes, DS sin isnt that great on single target

new tierset kinda sucks

[fluid moth]

Sin does pretty much everything except pure single target extremely well

[tame terrace]

would we still do cold blood 2nd sec tech in 2nd dance?

[dusk stone]

and dungeon slice is irrelevent? we are really ahead of DS sin there too

[tepid trellis]

dslice does not remotely show m+ power

[dusk stone]

iirc we were losing that last season though

[proven plover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[north schooner]

don't use dslice sims to compare between specs, they are better used to evaluate upgrades within one spec

[proven plover]

could someone smart tell me how I can run a sim which is not using my racial

[alpine wraith]

change the race in the input

[proven plover]

I wanna compare using vs not using

(I realised i never changed my cd macro to account for my race swap)

xdd

[alpine wraith]

you can do 2 sets in advanced then

in the second one just delete the line for the racial in the apl and copy the whole action list from there

[weak flame]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[daring marlin]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[weak flame]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[weak flame]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic poison/feint in Raid: > Click to open Sheet <

[zealous basin]

hi guys do u guys can make ST + CB macro works?

like mine is #showtooltip Technique secrète
/cast Sang froid
/cast Technique secrète

[hazy breach]

Relog

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[tepid trellis]

put it on your stealth bar

[zealous basin]

awwwwwwwww

[tepid trellis]

do both of those

[zealous basin]

thank u

[native zodiac]

honestly might be worth to make a wa to tell you to log out after swapping from assa to sub this tier

[nova cairn]

Hey tokin

@tepid trellis where do I change this fatebound coin icon

I can’t remember the thread

[native zodiac]

[vale pine]

you spelled undead wrong ^^

[nova cairn]

Dw I done it

[clever delta]

they fixing the cb bug dw guys

[slate marlin]

i feel attacked, the forsaken will rise

[vale pine]

undead is 1.5 or 1.6% behind

so well

[hidden jasper]

How much of a dps loss is it for us to not run any embellishment?

[vale pine]

1.4%

roughly

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dry plank]

If undead would have best racial for rogue no one would play other race

[vale pine]

but item level, etc play a role

[hidden jasper]

Ty!

[vale pine]

idk, people love their elves

elve, human and night elf

the most boring ass races in the agme

*game

[hollow spear]

Has anyone asked realz if he has one of these 8% buffs laying around?

[vale pine]

somehow make up for the majority of players

[void ocean]

so whats our policy on storming in the new season, is it the same? one storm during dance?

[hollow spear]

Maybe he can borrow one from the balance dev, heard they have some left over.

[hidden jasper]

He's busy working on the new dh spec

[fossil frost]

sooo would anyone know why my cold blood sec tec macro would be broken as of just today? So weird

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[fossil frost]

sick bug

[grave delta]

I'm probably blind and it's in the pins... which belt thingy do u wear for st and m+

or even easier does anyone have the string to sim it

[void ocean]

any takers? @vale pine maybe? 😛

[vale pine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

second point

is the change for storm

[void ocean]

the only change?

without 4pc proc we still strike -> bp?

[limpid sage]

Night elf is cool wdym

[vale pine]

you use bp earlier than before the patch

but you asked about storm

and storm use did only change in the above form

[slate marlin]

makes it up by being so fucking cool

[vale pine]

female undead animations are great

[slate marlin]

yep

racial is a joke but who cares

[vale pine]

i mean its funny

if you think about it, 1.5% is quite a big amount

with how picky we are often on e.g. talents or gear

[slate marlin]

its not in the level i play

[vale pine]

haha fair

[slate marlin]

dont need dwarf in 16s

[slate marlin]

ye but talents and gear you can mess around easily, imagine if you had to pay 20€ to swap a talent point

whole different story

[vale pine]

hey, don't give them ideas

[slate marlin]

As if they read this channel

[indigo drift]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tough pumice]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[loud brook]

since cold blood changes now, isnt it like a small optimization to press cold blood in between burst?

its ticking into cooldown as long as you press it right

[hollow spear]

That wasn't an issue for us with the old implementation

[loud brook]

wdym

[warm marlin]

if you properly prep your non opener flag windows your 2nd sectec will come out relatively sooner than your opener, so you need to hold flag a bit even if you cast cold blood insta on cd

[tepid trellis]

we pressed it on a finisher so the cooldown instant started for us

so it changes nothing

[loud brook]

so is pressing that extra cold blood a thing?

use it on backstab or whatever

when it come off cd

[tepid trellis]

you need to send it the same seconds it comes off cd or you have to delay your next set of cooldowns

which is why we dont really care for it

its extremely minor for something you can very well fuck up and lose you more dmg

[warm marlin]

even if you send it the same millisecond it comes up if you don't delay flag very slightly it can not come up in time for your second sectec of cds

[loud brook]

ok

[left ledge]

In short the cb change has nothing to do with sub

It’s more so a sin change

[shadow lance]

Oh, so we don't line up 3rd or 4th dance on it?

I was doing it whole last tier

[tepid trellis]

like i said you "can" do it, just dont fuck it up by delaying coldblood

[shadow lance]

Yes but gain isn't that big

As you said

[tepid trellis]

nope, its barely anything at all

[shadow lance]

So I should just put on the Blqde 2nd Sectech and stick to it to be sure not wasting

[loud brook]

i was thinking for fights like you know you are going to use certain amount of cd no matter what and there are couple seconds to maneuver around, delaying brust for some millisecond isnt really that bad

[warm marlin]

lining it up with dance was fine to do last tier, this tier raw sectec is better so it’s not worth anymore

Hard to fit in raw sectec and hold dance for cold blood

[loud brook]

i mean you dont even need to delay on anything you can just use it on any filler spell as well, cold blood has no gcd right?

[vale pine]

empowering attacks outside of cooldown

has nearly zero impact on your output

[summer badge]

Till you know your tanks pulls per dungeon it takes a min to pop off

[vale pine]

so would not rly consider doing risky things for no real gain

[fallow nimbus]

Imagine cold blood had a real duration and not just next spell

[vale pine]

could blood could be a passive

which makes your 2 next finisher crit after e.g. using dance or symbols

would solve the entire problems of macros or optimizations

[summer badge]

dont give blizz free info

we pay per year to test there game

[clever delta]

nice was running alts and dropped warbound lily for my main 😄

[vestal escarp]

Veteran bro

[clever delta]

yeah

691

[summer badge]

ara jara is the new?

[clever delta]

same as you would get champ one

[sullen hare]

he's got a point

[vale pine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fallow nimbus]

Champ is like hc because both have the max with hc crests

Nobody would use mythic crests to upgrade a hc piece to max

[wispy jasper]

To make sure I understand it correctly, BP now completely replaces Evis when there are 4+ targets now?

[lilac pendant]

I came with the same question hahha

[wild vine]

cant say noone

there clearly are people

[solemn creek]

Trinket are possibly the only item worth using gilded on. Depend on tuning and if u can get your handa on mythic version or not

[wary lodge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[viral phoenix]

for overall dam yes but make sure you're pressing coup and also if its a m+ pack where there's a prio mob and 3 shitter mobs its most likely worth eviscing anyways

[loud brook]

could someone explain to me the logistics behind this blackpowder? i thought we only use this spell to save Coup de Grace/over 7 target(this is 3 targets sim)

[shadow lance]

Read pin again

3 targets if fw up on all 3

According Fuu

[shadow lance]

I'm not sure to understand

Why would it be harder to fit sec cb in dance?

[warm marlin]

it is very difficult to both get in a raw sectec and still get it off cooldown in time to do the cold blood dance exactly when cold blood comes up. you need to farm a lot of cdr. in season 2, it was pretty much equal to either cast on cd or hold for cold blood, based on my scuffed apl work. in season 3, the tier set means that raw sectecs have a lot more value due to the unseen blade procs, so it is no longer worth it to trade the raw sectec in order to cold blood one in dance, you should just cast on cd

[shadow lance]

I think i got it

But, we still could just CB for a finisher if it comes out of cd during a dance

[loud brook]

it was not used again in the entire 5mins sim again, im sure there are other instances where fw is up on all targets tho

[warm marlin]

yes you can, in sims this scenario doesnt come up too often though

[shadow lance]

But I see what you mean now, thanks for explanation

[warm marlin]

np, I think in real gameplay with lower uptime you might lose a cast of sectec in which case holding for cold blood again is probably fine

will have to see what the bosses are like

[shadow lance]

Just saying the condition, application of FW to 3 targets is quite random

[toxic zephyr]

oi i know there are lot of sweaty gamers here, but is DS hero spec that bad? i mean it seems pretty straithforward and mostly you can spam BP then apply mark with guaranteed crit and rinse and repeat , for m-plus it seems like a good balance between aoe and single target

[shadow lance]

Thing is, the numbers of dance between cds gonna change?

[warm marlin]

maybe, it seems a bit rng

sometimes u turbo proc coups and get enough cdr for another dance sometimes u dont

[shadow lance]

I think it should tend to 2 dance between each blades

[swift tinsel]

To get the most out of DS aoe you end up moving Mark among targets to avoid proccing the capstone Darkest Night because of how weak evisc is vs BP in aoe

And it’s tuned lower than trickster and feels way worse to play

[drifting fable]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[drifting fable]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[drifting fable]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[karmic verge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hollow spear]

Has the use sectec as one of the finishers after symbols rule been removed from the APL?

Between first and second flag, the sim seems to yoink out a no-dance symbols without casting sectec as finisher 1 or 2

The one I currently see casts Rupture and Evis

[loud brook]

ya its doing that, i dont understand why

and its sending a dry sectech somewhere after second flag

[swift tinsel]

Supercharged Rupture

[warm marlin]

can you link sim

[loud brook]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qCVvRTT5yBgUvtUzrJ8uRf

[warm marlin]

afaik there is no hardcoded line to ensure that sectec is supercharged, just that it is the highest priority finisher and the trigger for symbols ensures that sectec should always be available to be supercharged

[hollow spear]

I am never 100% sure about this example rotation thingy, but this looks like I am tripping

[hazy breach]

Theres a huge disclaimer at the top saying to not use it as a guide

[hollow spear]

I am not using it as a guide

[hazy breach]

But ye for some reason adding a stricter flag check in sims isnt worth it

But

Ye im not saying you are, but some are

[hollow spear]

But why the heck does it "do" that?

[swift tinsel]

And sending blades 2 seconds after Sectech so the clones don’t get the buff

[hollow spear]

That cannot be what the APL tells it to do

[hazy breach]

It flags when blades has less than 3 secs left

[warm marlin]

this is because it cast flag without blades up

[hollow spear]

Okay, I follow that logic

Kinda crazy that it doesn't seem to affect the result in the grand scheme of things

Because that is certainly int

[warm marlin]

it uses a 30 second rule for both symbols and sectec. it cast symbols 31 seconds out from flag because sectec was going to be ready shortly, but by the time that sectec was ready flag was less than 30 seconds away so it didnt cast it

its a bit hard to implement failsafes for everything so sometimes its gonna look a little schizo

[lilac stag]

That’s seems like a fail safe you could implement though.

[hollow spear]

The sim is one of us confirmed

[lilac stag]

The blades bit that is

[hollow spear]

Sometimes you have to get the int out to be better next time

[bleak night]

real

[hollow spear]

Or, to draw false conclusions: sectec is so bad, you neither optimize around symbols anymore nor do you care about having blades ready

[icy tinsel]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

Why do I get the hard feels that this really is the synopsis for sub in general.

[warm marlin]

[lilac stag]

S2 no shits about tier.
S3 no shits about anything.

[lilac stag]

It’s not the time with flag, it’s the pairing it with Sectech

and not just the clones

[alpine wraith]

first sec tech is kinda noodle

so it moves things a bit sometimes

[warm marlin]

well in the one colo linked the issue was that it cast flag while blades was still on cooldown

it didn't come up to cast it with the clones

[lilac stag]

I understand that

[alpine wraith]

yea that is fine it got more evis in

[warm marlin]

are you suggesting it should hold sectec until blades comes up?

[alpine wraith]

more like it happened like that but it is weird for sure

like did you the 3 min triple dance with 2 SoD

that one is interesting

it also uses blades later

[lilac stag]

I’m suggesting / questioning why it would be doing that vs where we are from s2 with pairing with Sectech or right after (though even that all seeming would “break” at times).

[alpine wraith]

well you can make the check a bit more strict but the diff is not big

so it stays like that

[lilac stag]

i.e. what’s actually causing it to happen

[lilac stag]

Well if stated like that, to me that means there’s an error somewhere. Which shouldn’t be there.

[warm marlin]

i might be clueless but are you referring to the flag insta sectec that's causing the desync

instead of just the flag rupture dance symbols backstab sectec that it does on pull (since if it did that again it would indeed be synced perfectly)

[topaz crow]

what comp would you guys recomend for sub and bm for pushing m+ first week?

[lilac stag]

That picture is 92 seconds into the fight and it can’t get blades with Sectech. Something isn’t aligning.

[hazy breach]

Whatever you can get invites to

[topaz crow]

im trying to build a group with guildies

[tidal marsh]

There has never been anything as meaningless in the course of human history as "pushing m+ first week"

[lucid jackal]

A stack of leather players to trade loot

[tidal marsh]

Just get a CR and a BL and send it

[lucid jackal]

Ur never losing keys to damage n shit

[warm marlin]

the sim likes this flag insta sectec thing that desyncs blades (its in the s2 sims as well)

its a bit weird imo

[lilac stag]

And if someone did that in logs we’d be calling it wrong. So… to me that’s something that should be looked further into.

we legit have a bot command showing that it shouldn’t look like that

[warm marlin]

im pretty sure i saw some people doing it on lorrgs when i was perusing before

[lilac stag]

and in the s2 sims it usually didn’t start showing up until after 3 mins (from my memory)

[warm marlin]

its not necessarily wrong

[lilac stag]

it’s not necessarily correct

[warm marlin]

the robot suggests it is

[lilac stag]

We program the robot.

[hollow spear]

The robot is now an AI. Unfortunately it has been fed with my logs and we're all suffering the consequences.

[lilac stag]

copilot ruining wow and simc

[north schooner]

the robot does exactly as told, and when it doesn't we call sarah connor

[hollow spear]

It's the copilot from the naked gun

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/nice-beaver-naked-gun-stuffed-beaver-leslie-nielsen-frank-drebin-gif-6370297634400891100

[fallow nimbus]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[alpine wraith]

ez win

ready until antenna

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, big

[alpine wraith]

i also got edict

but it is annoying so nono

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

btw they broke human racial again

with the 2 charges of HS

with town portal

[lilac stag]

How so?

[mighty delta]

this might be a dumb question - but in the rotation when u do pre Symbols-> Strike -> Flag - > Rup -> Backstab. When i get to backstab i dont generate full combo points

are we supposed to hit backstab twice? or throw in a strike once we hit shadow dance?

[alpine wraith]

you need to dance

[fallow nimbus]

Look at the rotation picture again

[alpine wraith]

before back stab

to get premeditation

[mighty delta]

ohhh duh

[alpine wraith]

otherwise stab only generates 1 cp baseline

[mighty delta]

tysm

i wasnt using shadow dance in my backstab ofc thats why

[alpine wraith]

damn i will miss my circe

[fallow nimbus]

Damn, why do you have my gear?

[lilac stag]

Welcome to 10 million health.

[alpine wraith]

i lose 20% mastery

sad days

from 127% to 107%

[azure thicket]

i played two 12's in assa gear at 97% mastery end of season, learning

[alpine wraith]

oh after putting in gems and enchant we back to 112%

better than nothing

[shadow lance]

Do we need the windfury buff to send second sectech in first dance?

Or tier set itself allow it

[swift tinsel]

you can do it without skyfury as trickster

its notably tighter as deathstalker

oh wait you said in first dance, but yeah typically don't require skyfury

[shadow lance]

Yeah, just did it

Need to think pressing SoD faster

But timing is kinda tight

[rain stratus]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sly shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[grizzled acorn]

What's the best races for sub?

[lilac stag]

Maghar

[maiden oar]

noob down

[bleak night]

smh not even deathless

[maiden oar]

hehe

i think doing it on sub is so rage inducing

bc u press shadow dance and u lose threat and she charges at brann

and if u chase her u die

everytime u wanna burst

[hazy breach]

Ye i love when brann decided to randomly stand inside the suck circles instead of in the middle of them

When i have blades up

Thats great

[maiden oar]

yeah he did that twice on runs i almost killed him

[void ocean]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[swift tinsel]

Might give it a go as sin now that I’m less hungover lol

No way I could track dashes earlier today

[lilac stag]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[maiden oar]

did u disable anti aliasing

[swift tinsel]

Nah I meant bc my eyes and mind were slow lol

[random comet]

Mmm I need to mess with my settings before having another go

[swift tinsel]

was my best friend's birthday last night and I rarely drink so I've definitely been feeling it today lol plus I'm old so the hangovers are even more spiteful

[lilac stag]

what is that supposed to fix?

[swift tinsel]

what curios did you go with?

[hollow python]

did a sim comparing my 11.1 raid talents to the new 11.2 talent build recommendation is showing 0.8% loss with the new one, guessing its dependent on the 4pc/more crit or something?

[maiden oar]

makes the massacre clones get a red outline when theyre either the guy whos about to dash or the guy who will dash next

makes it so much easier

[maiden oar]

hat and amplifier

[lilac stag]

interesting

[hollow python]

doing some more sims...
-new 4pc only: new build better
-new 2pc only: new build better
-new 2pc+old 2pc: 11.1 build better
-old 4pc only: 11.1 build better

changeover to the new talent build seem to be when current 2 piece is gone and new 2pc is acquired

[steel horizon]

what changed in s3 that makes tea the choice over cold blood in aoe?

was it the bp buffs?

[hazy breach]

It was already close, but less power in sectech since tier doesnt buff it

[steel horizon]

ohhh

[hazy breach]

Or well, more of the damage comes from coup (ie not sectech)

[steel horizon]

so would we play it similar to CB in where we want it up for the second sectec?

[hazy breach]

No

You just macro it to dance

[steel horizon]

oh ok. ez pz

[grand wyvern]

don't you get starved on charges by macroing it?

is that ever an issue?

[hazy breach]

What

[grand wyvern]

i mean dance has lower cd than tea

[hazy breach]

Yeah

[steel horizon]

valid question i guess. if you macro it to dance then you probably dont have 2 charges up for the 90s burst window

but i guess we dont care that much

[grand wyvern]

the most annoying part for me is needing to wait for tea charges to recharge to change spec

[swift tinsel]

I turned up the brightness and gamma first but I’m gonna give that a shot bc that’s the part that was giving me trouble

[maiden oar]

[tribal blade]

yoda moved sub up interesting

saying sin isn't playable in streets and sub is better there

[hazy breach]

Turns out playing an entire area without deathstalkers mark sucks

And theres tons of ST

[tribal blade]

haha fair

[hazy breach]

where you cant pull bosses ontop of it

[tribal blade]

which area do you not have DM?

very true

[hazy breach]

The concert bit

[tribal blade]

ahhh gotcha

[hazy breach]

Because no mobs ever die

They just run away

[tribal blade]

yeah streets was always a place where the bosses were the pain points

[bleak night]

oh fuck i didnt think about that

[maiden oar]

deathstalker mark for 2nd boss of eco dome is really funny

you can play around it but it feels awful

[neon walrus]

They gotta do something about how gimped ass is when DM fucks up

Should also make it a reportable offense when tanks don’t let you restealth

Anyway - sub stuff, does pressing bp on 4 targets feel weong for anyone else?

[lilac stag]

No. They. Don’t.

[desert oasis]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[random mason]

Just play Nelf

[neon walrus]

I do XD

I mean, I play sub now so, until I feel like 11.1 reminiscing, I’ll be ok

I keep getting haste gear tho 🙁 the pirate life is calling to me

[wide kernel]

When did this happen, I see the video and apparently we just stealth'd onto a+ from b

[tribal blade]

in his last video

[wide kernel]

I check tho it was just magically there he didn't move it lol

[tribal blade]

i wouldn't put too much emphasis on it though, tier lists kinda a meme

but just found it interesting

[glass ice]

hi guys i want to ask what the best ways to farm valorstones are

[wide kernel]

It was 5 targets last patch if you paid attention to find weakness

[neon walrus]

I played pre casually but mostly played ass - do not remember reading that tech anywhere tho 0.o

One of those sneaky discord techs maybe

[rapid oasis]

wait so how do you unfuck DM? You need to go invis to ambush again right?

[tepid trellis]

Yes

[tepid trellis]

Nah. It was in the guides aswell

[mighty crow]

getting used to sub outside of shadow dance is hard lol.

[oak holly]

Hi! How is sub looking compared to assa in 11.2 for both M+ and raid? I saw most of the people are putting assa above sub but fuck me it's a pain with all the tanks chainpulling 😄

[mighty crow]

i havent done it in M+ but iv been playing BOTH sub can keep up with assassin if you know what your doing. but thats also in my pisspoor gear atm

assassin is def easier though i can tell you that

[oak holly]

Is it really? 😮 I tested both and sub felt way smoother for me but i may be missing some minmaxing tricks on sub

[tepid trellis]

overall Assa is better in m+
in raid its very fight dependant id overall say that sub looks to be better choice for raid for anything that isnt full single target (think fractilus)

[mighty crow]

it could be me cause i havent played sub in a long long time its usually been assassin or outlaw for me.

if the DPS between assassin and sub isint HUGE in m+ ill probably stiuck to sub. i like sub a whole lot but its been pretty bad untill recently at least in my opinion

[maiden oar]

is sending first coup at lower cp to not munch unseen blades post sectech worth it w/ new 4pc

or do i still builder to 6+ and just waste the escalating stack

[tepid trellis]

you still spend like normal

[maiden oar]

ok thanks

byebye escalating

[drifting fable]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tribal blade]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

i was testing out the new sin build for M+ and using it on the ST dummy

was like "sin ST is just not it"

then realized i had forgotten to put on amplifying poison

heehee

[tough mist]

Any tips for T11 Ky'veza solo in Sub? Can't go under ~60%, I drop under 10% hp after the pools and she finish me with a beautiful 80 millions

[maiden oar]

talent into exhil execution / elusiveness

feint + vial every pool

use cloak or evasion if no brann potions during suck

can feint during massacre because you arent going to be hitting her much then anyway

dont flag right away at the start because the threat drop from dance means shes just going to run at brann full speed and you will lose uptime (this will happen sometimes no matter what but holding it helps)

swap belt to vers

i used numbing poison for autos but idk if that even works could be placebo

also be very conservative with non flag dances the cdr situations grim due to no skyfury and the intermission

you naked symbols more than you would in any regular encounter bc dances are so scarce bc of the above reasons

turn anti aliasing off

use eye of kezan / weaponmaster

dont do the backstab spam thing pre flag you need to farm cdr so bad

i think thats everything

oh use hatarang/amplifier curious

[tough mist]

Thanks I'll give a try

The room is getting smaller, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to move the pools away without going into the shadows.

[maiden oar]

also if she charges brann due to shadow dance threat drop sometimes the play is to just not chase her i think id have killed her way faster if i didnt refuse to part with my dance windows, you can let the dmg buff stack up more than you think and you arent in a crazy rush to kill her

[maiden oar]

i killed her at 8:50 bc i sacced a flag window and had her go into last intermission at 2% and there wad enough room

just have to get it barely out of the big circle thing in the middle

[bleak night]

ngl it took me 9 minutes as assa and i never even realized the shadows closed in until just now

[graceful rock]

Yeah I didn’t either

What even happens in the shadows?

[rocky ocean]

[civic lava]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[keen dome]

How did you handle masscre each time? Just stand still and rotate the character model around to face it?

[tribal blade]

hey do you lose the prism stacks if you die

please say no

[bleak night]

yeah pretty much

and just pray a bit to not get really shit spawns

[keen dome]

Yeah

It's the only mechanic I'm struggling with

I second guess myself or mix up spawns

[sinful zephyr]

Yes

[bleak night]

turning off anti aliasing is op as fuck

[tribal blade]

reeeee

[bleak night]

if you havent already

[keen dome]

oh yeah I meant to

[bleak night]

it makes the current one and the next one have a red outline so its super easy to see

[keen dome]

the advice above from Hali has been really helpful too

Finding time to burst is a bit annoying but I'm mainly fitting it in after portals during masscre as it's the best 'downtime'

[bleak night]

yeah ngl

[keen dome]

Might try doing it on Assa

[bleak night]

i tried a few pulls as sub

[keen dome]

Haha yeah

Which build did you use? Just raid ST DS?

[bleak night]

but im still not comfortable enough with the burst window to do it very well during mechanics

assa i just afk

was way easier

[bleak night]

ye

[keen dome]

coo'

My best is 63% at Sub so far so I think I could do it, it's just masscre fucking me

[bleak night]

i tried fatebound a bit but vanishing fucked it up too often for my liking

[keen dome]

also flag not resetting is legit tilting me

Just fucking infuriating

[faint basalt]

you can check my pov, maybe will help some
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IABUcMGcFeo

[tough mist]

42% , bored but i'll get it

[keen dome]

good cat picture right off, starting strong

oh, duh, camera top down like that. That's re- brann just left the instance while I was afk typing this

[keen dome]

This is really helpful 🙂

[civic lava]

Hello, new sin build ?

[tribal blade]

oh the "new" one that's the old hybrid one

[civic lava]

alright :p

[tribal blade]

so not really new haha

[cursive oar]

whats the build right now for sub

[next stump]

Rushed setup