subtlety

[grand wyvern]

lmao if they do that they are evil

[lilac stag]

I crafted my dagger and when I took it out of my mail the fucking thing disappeared.

Relogged and had it on my toon. Wtf bliz

[alpine wraith]

maybe it has to do with the german bank

[lilac stag]

equipped with 3 embellishment s

[alpine wraith]

and you being able to just take the bank bags

they have something going opn with inventories

[wild vine]

And then you got banned for bugabuse

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/ice-cream-prank-trick-cone-gif-3547064

[wild vine]

Imagine

[lilac stag]

Maybe a blessing at this point.

forced into rehab

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/ice-cream-cornet-ice-cream-cone-sundae-trendizisst-gif-21970861

[tribal blade]

gear has been doing weird things, that's happened to me twice now

where i can't re equip gear i've taken off and pieces disappear from my bags

and have to relog to fix it

[lilac stag]

quality is top notch here at blizzard entertainment. You won’t find better bugs anywhere else

[vale pine]

likely based on item level gains

can run a sim later

[fiery cobalt]

So between sub and ass should I be running sub for raid? My stat prio is definitely better for sub but I’ve been trying to test both out on targeting dummies

[vale pine]

both is fine

[haughty mural]

Ah thought there would have been some already (:

[tulip gorge]

how come sub is playing with thistle tea in m+ now

[lilac stag]

Your stat priority for assa makes no difference.

[lilac stag]

Sectech dmg down. More evicerates.

tier set things

Sectech also only hits 5T

[tulip gorge]

what

was it capped recently

or is it a bug

[lilac stag]

always has been. Assumption was 8

insert assumption memes

[tulip gorge]

this is dumb

is it hard capped or soft capped?

[north schooner]

isn't it a softcap?

[lilac stag]

Play assa or outlaw then

Sectech is soft 5

[north schooner]

ok "only hits 5" is far from a softcap of 5 though

[lilac stag]

If you want aoe or funnel, you run assa.

Nimble - 8 Hard
BP - 8 Soft
Sectech - 5 Soft

Crimson Tempest - Soft 8
Arterial Precision - Hard 8
Caustic Spatter - Soft 5
Poison Bomb - Completely uncapped

[slate lantern]

That's what I am, a soft 5

[lilac stag]

Well add in the range of it and have fun.

where caustic is you and target.

back to the original question. Sectech stonks trending down with tier. Evis trending up. Master better with tea. In the end play whichever. They’re close.

[crude bridge]

How much Mastery is too much Mastery?

[tepid trellis]

when robot tells you STOP

[plucky parrot]

[lilac stag]

what is with the influx of stat questions this past week. holy moly

welcome to retail. Learn to use raidbots.

[plucky parrot]

everyone getting new gear from m0s and remembering how to gear again

[keen dome]

I don't think they're remembering anything..

[kind bluff]

Lol

How much stats will finally make me good?

[lilac stag]

that number doesn’t exist

[keen dome]

25% speed

[north schooner]

how much mastery does a sub rogue need for temperature of 23c, 69% humidity and 738m altitude?

[keen dome]

203%

[north schooner]

[warm marlin]

Pushback against the clankers

no one wants to use them anymore

[keen dome]

that's true and good

down with the robots

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-clone-wars-gif-13762346332239098640

[kind bluff]

Bahahaha

[north schooner]

sure guys you go help skynet take over the planet, I only use pen and paper to sim

[lilac stag]

Pen and Napkin noob

[kind bluff]

Someone help me, my 7 month old has become feral.

[keen dome]

Make them do Ky'veza ??

[hazy breach]

Blackboard and chalk

[hollow spear]

paint him purple

[north schooner]

marble and chisel

[tepid trellis]

il scratch it with my nails, just to piss off everybody present

[kind bluff]

Her name is.violet so that would make sense

[lilac stag]

Whip out the abacus

https://tenor.com/view/fred-flintstone-abacus-the-flintstones-bookkeeping-calculation-gif-23218851

[hollow spear]

Hell yeah

She might become a sub rogue after all

[kind bluff]

Do people even know how to use an abacus

[rigid pasture]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

Ty

[lilac stag]

How do you think Fuu does the sheet sims?

[tepid trellis]

blindfold and a dartboard

why?

[lilac stag]

Just like the devs

[kind bluff]

^

[lilac stag]

except sub doesn’t get the dartboard.

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/dart-darts-game-of-darts-miketyson-gif-5028490

[short radish]

once again this image still holds true

[lavish lark]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lavish lark]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lavish lark]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[strong ingot]

ANy reccs for fast/easy delves to do today?

[lavish lark]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[steel jolt]

Side street is pretty easy Imo

[maiden oar]

does kyveza auto u to death like the underpin and his robots did or is it manageable on current ilvl?

[swift tinsel]

? is pretty easy

[maiden oar]

oh i meant ??

[swift tinsel]

haven't tried ?? yet

[lavish lark]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[swift tinsel]

watched critcake do it as fury in like a 7min fight

I stopped delves at 8 so I gotta run those up to 10 before trying ??

[maiden oar]

i guess i could just run it on havoc

because then i would not die to autos but thats no fun

[steel jolt]

Shindig has a video doing it as sub

He made it look easy

[vale pine]

was paladin nerfed?

[steel jolt]

Notably he does tricks brann in the video

[short radish]

think so

at least comparing from last season to this season

[maiden oar]

oh neat

ok yeah as long as you dont die to autos im happy

the underpin robots hurt so i had to do it at the start of week 3

[steel jolt]

I did the new delve at tier 11 and I just ran away from the adds on last boss. Worked great

[maiden oar]

its so cool to be a coward

[steel jolt]

Better a live coward than a brave corpse

[maiden oar]

[swift tinsel]

might try and knock out ?? this weekend, looks not too bad

[keen dome]

It's really fun

My only complaint is that Masscre is sliiiightly janky and even when I'm directly looking at it, it kills me sometimes. I assume I'm just slightly off on the angle and it's enough

[swift tinsel]

yeah that's how I died the two times on ?

[keen dome]

Also dance on pull makes her fuck off and I lose so much uptime which isn't fun

[swift tinsel]

yeah I think after first pull I waited to do it until after portals

[keen dome]

Yep

[swift tinsel]

had to kill her twice to get the achiev bc it was broken when I killed her the first time lol

[keen dome]

I can do 20%~ but not consistently and I need to practice the intermission more

[keen dome]

high5

Really really good fight though

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah, arguably the best of the three

[keen dome]

Hands down, yeah

[swift tinsel]

mechanically interesting enough to be engaging but not as mechanically messy as Zekvir or mechanically shit as Underpin

[keen dome]

I wonder if there's some desync. I just pulled her, wasn't in any dagger lines, and it killed me.

Could just be my side though, not the game.

[ruby herald]

i don't understand how this is possible, im at just under 9 and that's from campaign, all world quests in kaz algar, all sidequests, all rares, the weekly dungeon quest & the weekly sparks of war quest

without some serious exploit i don't see how people are even close to 11

[steel jolt]

me neither

[wheat edge]

its not exploiting but its just legit degen alt farming over and over

[ruby herald]

its 250 per

[tropic nimbus]

You can do pvp weekly on all your alts and get rep

[ruby herald]

so to go from 9 to 11 you'd need

20 alts

i think there must be a more serious exploit at play

[steel jolt]

i think there is something unintended going on because i've seen people with rank 4 cloak

so somehow doing the campaign again rewards more stuff than intended

[ruby herald]

yeah there's a few of those going around too

i wish blizzard would actually deal with exploiters, it makes the game feel so cheap and stupid

[steel jolt]

there's nothing to do this week though so i do not think it's worth it to do the campaign over

[keen dome]

Ye. Also even if you do it's a pretty minimal increase

It's very whatever.

[maiden oar]

im at renown 7 and 2000 and i feel like i did everythign besides the contract

[ruby herald]

im bored and i enjoy minmaxxing, but i just think it feels like shit

[maiden oar]

i dont know wtf im doing wrong

[ruby herald]

when people exploit and likely wont get punished

[ruby herald]

with dmf?

[keen dome]

50 from Renown 8

[maiden oar]

yeah

i didnt do the sparks thing though

maybe i should do that

[keen dome]

oh yeah, good shout

[ruby herald]

its 16 per world quest

with contract

and there's what like, 50 you could have done maybe?

[maiden oar]

oh i thought it was just the 4 khaz algar zones

[ruby herald]

it is

[maiden oar]

if its every zone then yeah i inted

oh ok

[keen dome]

All WQ's in TWW give +15 renown with the contract

[ruby herald]

but if ur not doing them with contract

[keen dome]

So undermine too

[ruby herald]

then u dont get rep

[maiden oar]

no i havent touched any non karesh wq

[ruby herald]

16 with dmf buff

[keen dome]

I don't think the 1 extra renown is gonna matter

[ruby herald]

of course it matters :)

if u did 100 wq thats 100 rep

[maiden oar]

oh question if u did a bunch of rares did u get any pieces of the leather karesh set

i think the rare tint looks cool but i have seen 0 armor drops from any rare so far

i also heard some people got 1500 rep randomly on login

and that never happened to me

so maybe im just unlucky

[swift tinsel]

yeah I got that and have no idea why lol

[keen dome]

Everyone did who did them early. They buffed renown from the campaigns.

[swift tinsel]

is it maybe because they quests only gave 2k rep instead of 2.5k?

[keen dome]

If you didn't get it you did the quests after they buffed it

[swift tinsel]

ah

[maiden oar]

oh ok

i did the campaign day 1 but idk when in day 1 the cutoff was

[swift tinsel]

well shit then I should have gotten more bc I had DMF buff when I did them lol

rip

[keen dome]

I did it at like 6 - 8am GMT and then they buffed it like 10 or 11am

It was pretty soon after

[swift tinsel]

got to 5 tho so I can make the cloak things and new health/meld pots

[maiden oar]

i see

well i guess i wont worry about it too much

[keen dome]

ye don't

[maiden oar]

i want the rune so bad but it is what it is

[keen dome]

there's legit no reason to rush or care. The only two big things are the reusable augment but the raid gives through death ones

and then at renown 20 it's a heroic crest

[maiden oar]

can u get them from lfr

and then get more from normal

or is it like once from any difficulty

[swift tinsel]

is rune agi enough of a buff to overcome margin

bc I thought it was super negligible

[keen dome]

I assume so, it's via the renown and they drop from the """"OPTIONAL""""" Adarus Duskblaze, Dweeb encounter.

[maiden oar]

oh ok

[keen dome]

I guess there's the buyable champ piece but like eh

it's so whatever to care imo

[wild hornet]

Can we give sub a 30% dmg increase so I don't have to play assa kthx

[swift tinsel]

stratospheric burst inc

[maiden oar]

i think u will not have to play assa as is

on some bosses yea but not all of them

[swift tinsel]

might even be multiversal at that point

[keen dome]

just play sub

it's that easy

[swift tinsel]

Franklin Richards damage

[wild hornet]

Bench

[keen dome]

burst the bench down

[maiden oar]

u will be strong on every boss with adds and every boss with a damage amp except maybe loomithar but that guy does not matter

and also plexus sentinel but yea

and honestly u can just play sub on first 2 anyway and only swap for fractilus if the dps checks tight

[wild hornet]

True

[maiden oar]

tuning could change this but that is my current prediction

[wild hornet]

Which boss was loomithar

4th?

[maiden oar]

2nd

[keen dome]

the big moth

[wild hornet]

Oh yeah that one

[maiden oar]

has a dmg amp but also the dmg amp is in execute and its more or less pure st so fatebound is good there

[wild hornet]

Are the hero/talent trees gonna remain about the same?

For like raid and mplus

[maiden oar]

mild changes for sub

[wild hornet]

Because I saw something about thistle tea and a cb for keys

(thistle tea hater)

[maiden oar]

you macro it to dance

can play cb if you want but its less good in keys

in raid cb is the play

[wild hornet]

Did they give tea a buff or something

I haven't been following for the past month much

[maiden oar]

no

think if anything it has to do with the bp buff and the tier set changing from s2 to s3 but im not a theorycrafter so do not take this without a grain of salt

[tepid trellis]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[maiden oar]

also sectech doesnt aoe very well

in bigger pulls

[celest mulch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[celest mulch]

Anybody have that symbols macro handy?

[maiden oar]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[celest mulch]

tyty

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shadow lance]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shadow lance]

Damn, didn't see, I feel dumb

[strong shoal]

Hehe

[shadow lance]

Don't laugh sweetie, I had a hard day 🙁

[strong shoal]

I noticed

[shadow lance]

Was looking for the set upgrade in %, someone got something somewhere?

[loud brook]

question for these situations here, for the first example, if shadow dance being 1, is it ok to pressing shadow dance->sec tech without symbol? I would assume its ok since with 40 second left 2 charges will come back regardless of current stack being 1 or 0 on shadow dance. or is it not possible for shadow dance being 1 and symbol being 0 at the same time?

[keen carbon]

did they buffed subt?

i got one in m0 who destroyed it

[strong shoal]

Probably fuus sims

[shadow lance]

Fixed some bugged that improved AoE

[keen carbon]

good to know , is it still behind assa?

[keen dome]

Sub is very good and if you want to play it you should play it.

[tight sparrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shadow lance]

Currently, impossible to know

I would say, wait a bit

[keen carbon]

i am an outlaw main , buy tbh i'd like to change spec

just waiting to understand what to pick next

[mighty delta]

can i macro on use trinket with shadow blades?

[shadow lance]

It's okay to play sin with sub stuff, it's not okay to play sub with outlaw stuff

[shadow lance]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[keen carbon]

you mean wa?

[keen dome]

yes

[keen carbon]

or items in general?

[shadow lance]

It means, that if you wanna play sin or sub, you can easily switch one to another

[keen dome]

You might end up recrafting a neck but mostly it's whatever. Sub just doesn't want haste.

[shadow lance]

Yeah, changing a neck/ring

But you can have vers/mastery everywhere else, it won't bother a lot

[keen dome]

Since we both use double daggers, it tends to be pretty chill

[keen carbon]

ah gear is not a problem i am one of the degenererate who builded up 3 differents sets for every spec even if i can play only 1

[keen dome]

Then play all 3, imo

[shadow lance]

Building 3 full set in MM track is a lot of work ^^

But yes, just switch depending what you want

Each spec got his pros/cons

[keen carbon]

did it last season for different classes

[shadow lance]

Harder to do diff spec than diff classes

[keen carbon]

yeah i know tbh changing to outlaw from other classes was a shock

im just trying to understand what spec going into becouse i know how much effort it requires

[shadow lance]

Not in spreadsheet 🙁

[shadow lance]

Outlaw is the only one requiring a lot of knowledge

[steady solar]

Outlaw is also shit ATM

[bold loom]

outlaw is unexpectedly hard, i thought it would be easier in my monkey brain because “bigger knife do more damage” but no it’s not like that

[shadow lance]

Sub, you have 15 sec where you need to focus every 1:30

And assa, you can play it with one hand in your pant

[keen carbon]

ah so assa and sub are not hard as outlaw?

[shadow lance]

No

Assa is the easiest

[keen carbon]

nice , ok i'll go study then

[keen carbon]

yeah seams a build up class tbh

[shadow lance]

Sub, you just need to have the dance windows in mind

Outlaw is just always spamming and thinking about your rotation, it's really exhausting

But really satisfying when you pumps

[keen carbon]

real , very funny imo, but very frustating too. As outlaw i should play thinking what is about to happen

[hazy breach]

Sub also has a bunch of things that look like something you should care about, but in practice theres actually not a whole lot to track as sub

[lucid jackal]

Assa is easy ST, hard AoE
Sub is honestly pretty easy, but people like to overcomplicate it. ST and AoE is almost entirely the same
Outlaw is fairly hard, ST and AoE is almost entierly the same

[alpine wraith]

outlaw never pumps but it does do a lot of persistent flailing and that is good in its own way

[hazy breach]

I have multiple empty slots on my sub tracking compared to other rogue specs, my warrior and my feral

[alpine wraith]

having a flat dmg profile means you are also never weak

[keen carbon]

fact that you have not a real cd makes it "pump" , since you can always "open"

[shadow lance]

Guy, can you tell why hard AoE? I don't get it

[swift tinsel]

redid my fdk auras and there's literally nothing to track on cd bar anymore

[lucid jackal]

Managing bleeds, and mark, and caustic is harder than "doing your ST rotation in aoe"

[hazy breach]

Lots of things to track on mobs, confusing priorities that shift based on situations

[swift tinsel]

pillar, breath, erw, fwf

[keen carbon]

if you track it with wa you can reapply it preatty easly

[alpine wraith]

i can imagine begineers on assa struggle with setting up spatter every time they need

[lucid jackal]

Do you think its easier to "Do your ST rotation in AoE" or manage the multiple things sin has to track?

[hazy breach]

On one target yes, on 8+? Not as easy

[shadow lance]

OKay, I see what you mean

But In fact, you never need to really trac kstuff

[keen carbon]

make sense

[lucid jackal]

You don't need to track caustic?

Or deathstalker mark?

Or target select properly?

[shadow lance]

I mean, you go into pack, it dies on the initial ruptures

[lucid jackal]

Or reapply bleeds without carnage?

[jagged rover]

sin is easy in aoe until you have to start refreshing bleeds, which most people aren't going to run into because everything will be dead

thats when things get complicated

[swift tinsel]

yeah, so next week

[lucid jackal]

Would you prefer I say easy in ST medium in aoe?

[novel palm]

it starts mattering when you're pushing, on earlier stuff its irrelevant if you're playing full bleed

[hazy breach]

Its assuredly not easy because theres a deluge of questions about it at all times in assa

[lucid jackal]

This is pointlessly pedanatic. The spec is harder to play in aoe than the other 2 specs

[novel palm]

and if ur tank is not letting you restealth when ur out of vanish charges, its gg

[lucid jackal]

There is more to do in AOE compared to the other 2 specs

[shadow lance]

Yes, you're right

[lucid jackal]

Sub/Otl are the same spec on st and aoe

[novel palm]

yeah sin has the most complex aoe by far

[shadow lance]

I juste don't realize anymore

[lucid jackal]

I mean its like any spec lol

U play it a lot and it's not hard

[shadow lance]

Cuz it's not hard, just harder than others

Yeah, you prolly right

[hazy breach]

But bro i have to use BP instead of evis in aoe!! mucho complicado

[novel palm]

i also suggest getting used to using mouse over rupture/garrote for this shit, it helps a ton in raid too

[lucid jackal]

I'm so deadass in so many pulls u legit just dont

cuz more prio

[novel palm]

it feels very like old enhance where if you lost your target with flame shock, you goofed on the pull lol

[maiden oar]

also dont bind them to mb4/mb5 because then you cant mouseover boss frames to apply dots

[novel palm]

not as bad though

[lucid jackal]

Nice man you hit the lashers with black powder wahooo so good

[maiden oar]

had to rebind my garrote and rupture when i realized this and relearn my keybinds

[swift tinsel]

playing ele where you MO half your abilities for lightning rod

[alpine wraith]

funny when you still big brain using 1 bp to get more dmg on the coups and evis!

sub is fun to play around with

[keen carbon]

ok i think i lost myself

ty all anyway 🙂

[novel palm]

i had a 90 mil sudden demise proc on a boss with double on use the other day

it was "fun" 😄

[alpine wraith]

biggus

[novel palm]

i still dont know if this shit is randomly intended or that specific trinket is just bugged

[alpine wraith]

which trink

[novel palm]

observer's fetters or w/e from Shaarb

its a rare in the Oasis

also drops a mount

you can pop it with any other trinket at the same time and its like 22k primary stat

[alpine wraith]

they will likely nuke it

same as they did with others

and the delve one

lasted like 1 week

[hazy breach]

If it doesnt trigger the 20s cd with other trinkets its absolutely bugged

[novel palm]

🙁

[alpine wraith]

yep same as kiss of death

they do miss them sometimes

[novel palm]

its fun while it lasts

[alpine wraith]

yea

[novel palm]

it's rigged on sub the most i think just cus of how the spec works

[alpine wraith]

otherwise as sub it would be funny with prism at 3 mins

[novel palm]

but you can't really align 2 min with it well, its just once in an opener lo

[alpine wraith]

you would have 80k extra agi

[novel palm]

yeah its insane

[alpine wraith]

literally double your agi

[tight sapphire]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[solemn flame]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

Just my 2c, can we apply judgement equally. If subtlety can have stuff you don't rly need to track or optimizations for small improvements so do other specs. I read back and it feels like individuals like to apply this concept only to subtlety and not the other specs in comparisons.

There is a lot people are confused about on subtlety, and it is inherently one of the harder specs especially due to having cooldowns with stacks you need to be careful to use efficiently. This is something other rogue specs often don't have, inherently giving it higher complexity.

[hazy breach]

Well i said there wasnt a lot to track, not that it was easy

[vale pine]

guy did present it as easy spec

[alpine wraith]

yea sub is just complicated

not hard per se

just things to think about

and make decisions

[steel zinc]

Sub is hard since its punishing. Screw up one cd set your dmg will tank. Do that on a warrior or w/e it doesnt matter that much.

[paper iron]

Imo the only hard part of sub is trying to understand why we re doing things

[alpine wraith]

never make mistakes just be a chad

smh

[paper iron]

The how we re doing things is just muscle memory copypasta others and 99% of the job is done

[steel zinc]

True

[alpine wraith]

[vale pine]

if you want to rly complicate the discussion, find weakness is a dot and it has a positiona requirement

aoe spells have not all the same range

[alpine wraith]

with low duration

[paper iron]

FW

[vale pine]

and replicating shadows is complex

[alpine wraith]

replicating is so silly

they fixed the smart targeting

[paper iron]

How s your Day 28318 of trying to make goremaw hacha ?

[vale pine]

so for all the "omg dot spreading is so hard", subtlety has a more complex form of it

[alpine wraith]

and decided

AND NOW IT HAS 5Y

[hazy breach]

Why is replicating complex

[vale pine]

because of targeting and ranges

[alpine wraith]

range tiny so you still need to move sometimes

[hazy breach]

Its just you get 2x the ruptures

[alpine wraith]

to hit 2 targets that dont have it

but i guess most people wont notice

[vale pine]

a common mistake in certain raid fights was

[alpine wraith]

and just live with it

[vale pine]

at least in my log analysis

people positioning incorrectly, which did spread replicating to the wrong target

[alpine wraith]

remember council boss in amirdrassil?

[vale pine]

or not at all

[alpine wraith]

bear being 1mm away from puck

or the other one

sorrey

[vale pine]

all as a consequence of, well it being not super intuivive

my point is, you can easy argue for things to be complicated if thats your incentive

but if you do, please do so equally for all specs

and don't simplify it for one and not the others

[ripe flame]

As someone trying to learn the spec the hard part for me is knowing when and which parts of trickster to care about

My 2c as someone not that into the sauce of sub

[alpine wraith]

only coup and fazed matter

and fazed when you dont have it

[loud brook]

isnt it that a extremely small dps loss if you like dont care at all?

[alpine wraith]

not really sending a coup without fazed

is kinda oofers

or fw

or outside of dance if you can save it

[loud brook]

i heard in the video saying fazed is like 90 percent up time so its hard to miss, is that true?

[alpine wraith]

in dance it is not a problem because you usually sec tech before it

but other times gotta be careful

[loud brook]

ah ok

[vale pine]

like anecdotally

we had like 10 rogues in my guild

not one of them had a problem performing on assassiantion

but 8 of them had issues doing so on subtlety

[ripe flame]

I can definitely relate to that

[vale pine]

if sub is easy, and assassiantion isn't

this would not be the case

[grand wyvern]

well what you put hundreds of hours in gets easier usually

[vale pine]

most of them played funnily enough

outlaw mainly

and only switched to sin in raid

[alpine wraith]

i mean you just need to watch every time sub is overtaking assa in 1 boss hugely

like smolderon

[lucid jackal]

Sub isn't easy, its lowkey easy

[alpine wraith]

yea just complicated

[lucid jackal]

Like when U understand sub, its not hard

[alpine wraith]

and people dont like complicated things

[lucid jackal]

But understanding it, people seem to struggle to understand

[keen dome]

Easy / Hard is such a subjective term for it, though. Complexity and accessibility go better for it imo. Sub has a learnign curve, rules and stuff. It's harder to pick up and play but it isn't 'hard' in the literal sense of it. It's just.. you gotta put time in. assa is way easier to pick up and push buttons on. Outlaw too, really.

[alpine wraith]

some people just dont have the same learning capability

[keen dome]

All three get pretty complex as you play them more and try to master, but Sub has a greater barrier to entry than the other two, imo.

[vale pine]

if it comes to maximizing potential

you always get in the area of small optimizations and time sensitive inputs

e.g. think of speed running

even the simplest game can be difficult to speedrun because suddenly small factors can play a big role

I think wow aimed to simplify all specs to the point they are manageable

but subtlety with multiple cooldowns on 2/3 stacks def. has a special secret sauce which combined with cdr makes for something thats easy to play incorrectly

(besides energy still beeing a ailien concept to most non rogue players)

[sand flax]

@vale pine in which scenario you send a naked sectech ?

[vale pine]

never

[sand flax]

I saw on lorrgs that some send and other no

[vale pine]

you would at least pair it with symbols

[sand flax]

Is there a scenario where we send only symbols + sectech and no dance ?

[loud brook]

i was asking this early

isnt this the first one naked sectech and second symbol sectech?

[shadow lance]

I don't get what it is

[dire saddle]

The answer evades my memory rn, can you spam M0s for gear?

[subtle bobcat]

no, weekly lockout

[dire saddle]

Roger that

[chrome palm]

this looks like someone trying to explain when you need to hold sec tech despite it being up

[vale pine]

i have no idea of the context of the screenshot

tbh

[charred plaza]

That's funny. I did assa in PvP and outlaw in raid..

[shadow lance]

Prolly speaking about the use of cd depending of remaining cd of others

[chrome palm]

i imagine he says something like "if the image at the top is the case, dont cast sec tech"; "if the image on the bottom is the case, you can cast sec tech with symbols"

[loud brook]

2 of them he said to use it

[vale pine]

assassinaiton did raise in pvp as the go to spec

because (sorry for pvp players who listen) you just pve targets down

[alpine wraith]

right now with new 4 set you do send it sometimes

[charred plaza]

It was easier, I felt, to keep an eye on everything else.

[alpine wraith]

like after 1st set of cds you get sec tech back but SoD is still on cd so you send it and get it back by like 15 secs later to use with a dance

but it is rng

[charred plaza]

Have to think quicker and react faster. I'm more comfortable on outlaw, but the twitchiness of it was too much for me being new to rateds.

[alpine wraith]

i always find funny how they always nerf sub and outlaw if they do decent dmg in pvp

but for some reason assa can do dmg

well they are made of paper so not many play it all the time but still

[vale pine]

I am honest

i was not surprised assassiantion was doing insane damage in aoe with little effort after the 10.2 rework which focused on making it good in m+

i was surprised it was not nerfed/changed for 4 seasons tho

[tepid trellis]

this is the way it looks between cd set 1 and 2
best way i can explain when you can use a sectech with symbols without dance is between cd set 2 and 3 where you wont have the same amount of dances so lets say you remove the 0:55 one then you can send a sectech with a symbols, but this means your excess charge of symbols is now gone and you wont be able to that again unless alot of forced downtime happens during a raid fight
now if we fast forward to between cd set 4 and 5 then the same hole appears cuz you dont have enough dances to dance twice between cd sets again (it alternates if you can or cannot) then if you have enough uptime you can send a sectech completely alone.

[alpine wraith]

you can sometimes sec tech dry but need to know what you are doing

would not recommend unless you know how things work well

[vale pine]

think its in general better to not

because failure is more catastrophic

than the gain from a blank secret

[tepid trellis]

30sec until flag, and u know you have 100% uptime

then its safe

[vale pine]

ye

[alpine wraith]

also just after cds if SoD and dance are like 15-20 secs away

[vale pine]

also nice explenation

[alpine wraith]

kinda what i told people yea

for ex here it knows it has at least 20 secs to get the SoD+dance anyway so it uses it here as it just came off cd after the 1:30 full cd send

helps a lot we can play around always with 10-15 extra secs of cdr

thx to the evis with supercharger/coup

[loud brook]

thx for the explanations i think I get it now, but this looks so complicated to feel it out when is the timing in real fights lol

[alpine wraith]

it is complicated so while it can happen

[tepid trellis]

thats why its not really recommend to do

[alpine wraith]

most of the time you can err on the side of caution

and just not do it

[mighty citrus]

How much of a minmax is this dry sectec?

Like%

[alpine wraith]

not likely to be much because the situation itself depends on good rng on sht after cds

[tepid trellis]

if i had to guess

less than 1%

[alpine wraith]

less than 0.5

or around that

[mighty citrus]

Okidoki, thanks

[alpine wraith]

like stealthi said 30 secs before flag or 20 secs before an in between dance

would be a good bet

but in real fights boss may decide fuck you

at any time and everything crumbles

damn just found something interesting

it is triple dancing at 3 mins and using 2 SoDs with it

kinda genius

and just CBs third

didnt have blades for last one but got the 3 sec techs in flag

[shadow lance]

I got a question about it

I see people doing triple dance opener

[tepid trellis]

the timings arent strict

it just to show the amount you get between cds

[shadow lance]

Yes sure

And trying to fit the second/third window on the CB cd

[alpine wraith]

you can move the 0 on the ones where you have 1 extra

you only really do the thing above because of how prism works kinda

on opener even with forge it is not that worth mainly because it decays too

oh also because you can triple SoD anyway so no need to only double SoD two dances

[placid elk]

im thinking to play sub just to flex the spec at this point

[shadow lance]

I mainly followed it

But I would like to go further in spec

[vale pine]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic poison/feint in Raid: > Click to open Sheet <

[vale pine]

think i can update that now to this tier

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic poison/feint in Raid: > Click to open Sheet <

[vale pine]

perfect

[deep ferry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[round latch]

what do you think,sub or sin for ST?

honest opinion

[lilac stag]

You’ve looks at the numbers right?

one is 400k ahead and easier to play.

[tepid trellis]

pure pure single target 0 amps no nothing, assa

[loud brook]

this back to back evis at second sod and symbol is not guaranteed right? since there might not be enough stored combo point to do it. or I misplaying it?

[tepid trellis]

throw in some downtime and dmg amps

and it will be sub

[tepid trellis]

it is not 100% no

[lilac stag]

dmg Amp at 90 seconds and during execute? back to assa

Remember to reload for Cold Blood.

[tepid trellis]

afaik that aint a thing

[lilac stag]

yeah I have to see what the fights actually look like

[tepid trellis]

2nd boss has a dmg amp at 50%

so on hc yeah assa could get some execute value on it, but not on mythic

[stoic flower]

I think FB assa’s burst is also ridiculously high seeing similar numbers as Sub (at least on dummies) + execute

[lilac stag]

I didn’t look is that in the actual raid info ingame or is that just from ptr

[tepid trellis]

atleast not early weeks

[vale pine]

it will depend on procs, but you will likely see multiple back to back evis during the opener

[tepid trellis]

the bosses phases at 50%

into a dmg amp window

but it is also the "2nd" boss in the raid

[lilac stag]

yeah HC shenanigans begin

[tepid trellis]

so its kinda irellevant

[toxic ice]

hey friends, is there a clear winner on ST on sub vs assass?

[vale pine]

FB is probably rly good on pure single target, but sub has less trade offs with more targets

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure its smaller than subs still

Unless theyve fixed coins working with executes

[lilac stag]

I’m just worried about last 2/3 bosses and being prepped for those

[vale pine]

also keep in mind, your target dummy might be in perma execute

which would increase burst

[tepid trellis]

last two atleast

looks like sub fights

[vale pine]

^

[lilac stag]

Whatever wall 4 or 5 may be won’t effect me

[tepid trellis]

fractilus looks like the first wall

[stoic flower]

Ahh makes sense.

I’m planning 5/8 as sub, 3/8 fb assa

[tepid trellis]

and its pure single target

[lilac stag]

I’ll grab a 90 second trinket.

make it work on assa if need be

[tepid trellis]

and its like the only "pure" single target fight apart from 2nd boss

[stoic flower]

Would be interesting to see how things play out. Just glad I can use the same trinket lol

[tepid trellis]

there are some intermission adds on first boss but they are kinda w/e

[vale pine]

fractilus looks boring, sorry to say

[lilac stag]

everyone else going to forge fighting

[tepid trellis]

i dont think it will be fuu

[grand wyvern]

literally

[vale pine]

but def. assa boss potentially

[tepid trellis]

if its tuned right

[vale pine]

maybe i underestimate how hectic it is

[lilac stag]

Tuning really makes or breaks the “boring”

[vale pine]

thats the wall stacking boss, no?

[tepid trellis]

well yeah if he is tuned like shit

the wall mech kinda doesent do anything

[vale pine]

i could see it being fun if the stacking is hectic

but if its slow

it might be quite boring

[lilac stag]

I’m excited to see raccoon TV again.

[vale pine]

tho i don't mind a less mechanical intense fight

especially looking at the last 2

which seem

[tepid trellis]

its designed as a healing/dps check fight

[vale pine]

to have a lot of funny deigned mechanics

[tepid trellis]

so unless they get those numbers wrong

it will be bad

[lilac stag]

trust in copilot

[vale pine]

XD

[lilac stag]

Tuning will be perfect

[vale pine]

maybe they switch to r3

[lucid jackal]

Being harder to play dont matter ull just play whatever is better

I think downtime + amps + cleave makes sub such a good default pick

[tepid trellis]

the dynamic dance timings

just fit this raid quite nicely

from my research atleast

and it isnt as much "passive" cleve

but more so bursty

[vale pine]

i am with you, looking at bosses and some rough timings

it feels like s3 df

[deep ferry]

do you guys think sub will be nerfed btw?

[vale pine]

with quite good fights for us

[tepid trellis]

no

[vale pine]

nope

[lucid jackal]

Literally less than 0% chance sub gets nerfed

[vale pine]

haha

[grand wyvern]

we are one of the lowest simming spec

[lucid jackal]

I dont think anybody truely understands how broken ANY caster is, and FDK

[tepid trellis]

dont think sub is remotely good enough to warrant nerfs

[lilac stag]

bring on the fun. Hotel gaming for first week of season.

[jagged rover]

fractilus looks like a fight that is boring as a dps that I would love as a healer. Hopefully the check on it when we reach it is at least somewhat tight

[deep ferry]

ya aa friend of mine wanted to fuck my ass and told me some streamer said it. Thanks

[lucid jackal]

Like literally every caster, bar balance druid is beyond fucking broken

and FDK is literally thanos

[vale pine]

fdk migth get more nerfs, no?

[lucid jackal]

Midnight DPS

[tepid trellis]

not only frost, but unholy does an obscene amount of dmg as well

people just didn't test it

[lilac stag]

FDKs boss dmg + cleave is bananas

[lucid jackal]

Its not even like "melee is bad this tier cuz fight design" its literally just melee DPS is all undertuned

[vale pine]

kinky

[lucid jackal]

Except FDK/UDK

[astral axle]

[lucid jackal]

Like deadass every melee is garbage

[deep ferry]

not literally

metnally

[lucid jackal]

Yes literally

Oh

[deep ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-anguish-despair-gif-13915908866750092639

[lucid jackal]

Like every caster except boomkin is thanos

and every melee is ant man but without the man part except DK

MM, BM, Shadow, Aff, Destro, Demo, Dev, Ele, Arcane

All thanos

Havoc, arms, ret, fury, enhance, survival, feral, WW, all ass

[lilac stag]

Our SP swapped to Feral.

[round latch]

[tepid trellis]

its just warlock and dk comp and then you just slot in raid buffs

[chrome palm]

insane rogue raid buff

works on 3 of the bosses abilities

for the mid tier wall

[vale pine]

they removed our raid buff

😭

why

[astral axle]

dont forget speed shroud

[grand wyvern]

we are not allowed to have utility, we are not a hybrid class

[chrome palm]

specifically on the spread cleave fight

[keen dome]

We just need to find a new raid buff niche

Like a positive can-do attitude. Or non-stop puns.

[lucid jackal]

https://x.com/ForeverGuy5/status/1953610085822791796 this is just the truth tho

ForeverGuy (@ForeverGuy5)

I feel like if you aren't a ranged DPS or FDK your tier might be over.

X · Aug 8, 2025, 12:11 AM

U still play 1 rogue

But melee DPS is so ass this tier

WL + DK power hour

[pulsar hemlock]

Can't wait for Midnight launch and rogue is identical to live

[keen dome]

Nah, we'll have void talents

that don't interact with shadowed finishers

[pulsar hemlock]

And they'll be bugged

[knotty depot]

That's the one certainty

Whatever we get

it'll be bugged for 90% of the expac

[chrome palm]

idk if they tune casters early-ish for raid

it is giga melee season in m+

[lucid jackal]

Nah rogue gets a set of changes for midnight

Would be crazy to get nothing since the last set of real changes was S3 DF

[chrome palm]

it has to be a full hero talent rework for rogue in midnight

[knotty depot]

I wonder if they're just gonna keep the hero talents mostly as they are into Midnight

[chrome palm]

i could see them scrap deathstalker entirely since they havent iterated on it at all

[pulsar hemlock]

We will get nothing and like it.

[little epoch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pulsar hemlock]

And cope that The Last Titan will be different

[lucid jackal]

I mean I said it all expac but I love how rogue feels to play overall, I haven't hated the gameplay a single tier really

But it'd just be too long with "nothing changing" where midnight sort of has to do smthing

[keen dome]

Maybe they'll give us gloomblade baseline

[chrome palm]

10 months without one change to sin/sub

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/i-used-to-pray-for-times-like-this-i-used-to-pray-meek-mill-dreams-and-nightmares-dreams-and-nightmares-michael-jordan-gif-4600240804856944817

Sorry I was looking for that one for an earlier conversation and accidentally clicked it

[lucid jackal]

Warrior has more or less felt identical from expac launch to now

So has ret

[pulsar hemlock]

No changes because we are perfect (Ion told me this in a dream)

[lucid jackal]

Ret got that talent tree rework thing in 11.0.5 I think tho

Where they changed the class tree up

[astral axle]

keepin the majority of the player base happy innit

[lucid jackal]

Wdym

[astral axle]

just joking about the large number of ret paladins

[lucid jackal]

But ret has barely been changed too 🤨

I just always think theres more to "being changed" than "being popular" yk

[keen dome]

Poison toggle in Midnight. Believe.

it's gonna happen

[knotty depot]

I'm not sure Ret needs a lot of changes though

[lucid jackal]

Depends who you ask

[slate lantern]

Make sub burst a guitar hero string for 20seconds

[lucid jackal]

Ret currently has a handful of issues

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/southpark-guitar-hero-dancing-playing-gif-4850366

[lucid jackal]

Issues like templar/divine hammers hitting immune/irrelevant targets

[astral axle]

nah i agree, fwiw im just speaking out of turn and being a dumbass

[lucid jackal]

Hammer of wrath is super shit RN

Or, has been all expac

[astral axle]

a lot of people play and enjoy ret, not sure of the appeal -- it isnt really my jam

[lucid jackal]

I love ret

but it's not without its flaws

Its pretty shallow in it's core rotation

But its wide utility makes it pretty fun

[shell willow]

Nothing to it

[lucid jackal]

Its a chill alt

[shell willow]

Its fun to play dont have to think too hard

[astral axle]

thats what prot woyer is for

[keen dome]

Prot Pal is pretty fun 'cos shield go brr

[astral axle]

dont think too hard, press buttons like a maniac, feel like the hero because people don't want to tank

[lucid jackal]

But yeah idk

I want shit to get better but at least shit is chill rn imo

Excited to see what midnight ends up shaking up

It would legit be crazy to get nothing in midnight yk

Going an entire expac with very little changes overall into an expac launch with nothing again

[swift tinsel]

only thing I really would like to see besides a better baseline aoe kit is a good look at streamlining hero trees

trickster mostly fine but ds is realllll rough

[keen dome]

gloomblade though

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I mean I legit think rogue is almost perfect in its current state

[swift tinsel]

I think its like

[lucid jackal]

its just like, rough edges type shit to me

[swift tinsel]

85% there

[tiny sierra]

do you guys think sub will be played on rwf or they going with sin? my guild is doing predictions and i'm not sure tbh

[swift tinsel]

yeah agreed, the framework is nice

[lucid jackal]

Deathstalker kinda shit for sub, fatebound has issues where it loses ST damage when targets are added whihc just feels odd, too many shit ass talents for sub/otl, I also think Outlaw in general is way too overloaded with "stuff"

[swift tinsel]

I can only really speak to sub bc I haven't dug into the other two as much

but I think DS needs a pretty big do-over

[lucid jackal]

I've played all 3 specs all expac, I can't really think of an expansion I've enjoyed the class more tbh, gameplay wise

[swift tinsel]

I'm also okay if they make sub's aoe style to be some form of Blade Flurry where sub-nimble makes its way into the spec tree and it works with all of our stuff

[lucid jackal]

Nah thats like, a trickster thing

Cuz its outlaw/sub hybrid

I think its perfect

[maiden oar]

the evil red circle looks fun

[swift tinsel]

It also introduces issues unique to sub though because of it

[lucid jackal]

wdym

[swift tinsel]

so we end up with the weird blades thing we just got

it's also an extension of FW issues too tho

which needs to go

[plush roost]

Guy

Are you okay

[loud brook]

if i understand this correctly, the exact timing on 1-2 smallcd in between burst is not set exactly on 0:35 and 0:55 and can be move around a little bit right? or not

[keen dome]

Ye, FW is an archaic system that really needs to be redesigned or chucked out. There's a multitude of ways they could go about it that'd just.. make the spec play better.

[swift tinsel]

I'm still team Make Our Damage Shadow and then FW can be a Strike-only damage amp debuff

no armor shit

[keen dome]

Yeah, that'd be neat

I personally think shifting Dark Brew nearer to the top, toning it down a bit, but making it more of a central and thematic element of SUb would go hard.

[lucid jackal]

yeah fw lame

[swift tinsel]

give us baseline flurry that's also shadow dmg

[lucid jackal]

LOLOL

[swift tinsel]

honestly I think just removing FW would fix about a third of what I dislike about sub

[plush roost]

S-surely not...

[swift tinsel]

or some of the edges I consider rough lol

[lucid jackal]

Nah probs not actually

But like, I'm so fr about like

if you aren't a caster, or a DK ur tier might be over

For raid anyway

Like, its so insane how shit every melee DPS is other than DK

They are all like, mid

And every caster except balance is just overtuned AF

Hunter, Warlock, mage, shadow, dev, ele

They legit all broken af

Every melee is shit

[plush roost]

Yeah its quite cringe

[swift tinsel]

ele with the like 30% single target buff at the buzzer lol

jfc

[lucid jackal]

Its not even melee dps is bad cuz downtime blah blah

[west tide]

bro i sent ur tweet to my guild and a ranged guy said melee isnt that bad

[lucid jackal]

Its deadass just every ranged DPS is broken

[west tide]

gettin gaslit by a lock

[keen dome]

I'm sure next week'll be a comedic time and a load of people will be very angry

[plush roost]

The solution is simple

[lucid jackal]

Sent this to stealthi earlier

[plush roost]

Give every raidboss random los spots for ranged dps and constant movement

Thatll show em

[keen dome]

Give us LoS smokebomb that works on players

[swift tinsel]

hahaha

[plush roost]

And then idk take dk and shoot it

[leaden prairie]

ok thats kinda memey tbf

[swift tinsel]

shadowstep to the ranged stack, smokebomb, step back to boss

[keen dome]

Boss moves away slightly faster than they can run

[leaden prairie]

the sample size is extremely low

• no tiers etc

• bosses last 10s

[leaden prairie]

• the sample size is extremely low

its like

3 guilds

reclearing

not saying casters arent op

and melee shit

[plush roost]

Yeah but tbh warlock just gets better next week so topkek

[lucid jackal]

^

[leaden prairie]

ye

[lucid jackal]

Lock + FDK just get better when they get gear

and so does shadow/dev/ele

I mean it's just not a good melee tier next tier

For raid theres just no reason to play any melee DPS that isn't rogue, and FDK

and u dont even play rogue for rogue u play it for riad buff

[leaden prairie]

outlaw need a 20% arua buff thats right

[lucid jackal]

FDK is just thanos as a melee DPS

and any ranged DPS is also thanos

Except balance

[loud brook]

when is the last time its a melee tier lol

[lucid jackal]

But u just play warlock cuz its the most thanos

[plush roost]

Fdk on soul hunters

[lucid jackal]

The past like 10 tiers

[plush roost]

MonkaS

[lucid jackal]

in df ppl were playing 2x enhance for more WFT buffs

[plush roost]

Nerubar was insaneo melee tiwr

[lucid jackal]

Melee has been mega good for a long ass time

[keen dome]

We can still equip a gun... Maybe it's time for us to become ranged this tier, too.

[loud brook]

arent people playing like double arcane mage in nerubar tho

[lucid jackal]

this is like the first time in a long time where melee has just been undertuned af

They were also playing 2x fury 2x fdk

like wut

[loud brook]

so its a mix tier then

[plush roost]

Broodtwistwr was dominated by melee

[lucid jackal]

I mean whatever u wanna call it

mixed/melee

melee has been very good for a long time

Many fights for the past like 5 years have been hard carried by melee DPS specs

this is the first tier in a long time where melee on the whole been mid af

[plush roost]

Every tier is a mixed tier because fights are designed to have mandatory ranged mechanics

But melee is typically way stronger last few tiers

[hollow spear]

I mean there's good and there's ridiculous, but if the delta between ranged and melee is gonna be anywhere close to your screen shot

It's gonna be full riot haha

[plush roost]

I doubt it remains that bad, small tuning pass on tuesday methinks

[hollow spear]

Scratch the small

Bring the big guns

[plush roost]

Nah they wont do big till they have better raid data

[hollow spear]

Warlock has to get omega clapped

[lucid jackal]

I mean that screenshot is hella not the full picture but it's like

[hollow spear]

Ofc

[lucid jackal]

Iykyk

[hollow spear]

But it's not like sims haven't been showing locks as broken either

[plush roost]

Well theres more to game than st sims

[hollow spear]

And yes, sims aren't raid

But it's not like destro sucks on spread cleave

[plush roost]

But indeed warlocks do kinda do it all

[hollow spear]

Or demo sucks on cleave

[young mural]

???

theres no reason to play rogue in raid lol

[wicked urchin]

warlock for sure gets nerfed a bit on reset

[young mural]

wdym

[wicked urchin]

and so do we for no reason

[lucid jackal]

U play 1 rogue for buff

[plush roost]

As is tradition

[young mural]

which buff??

[wicked urchin]

debuff

[young mural]

they patched the no parry "buff" trickster had buddy

[hollow spear]

Poison

[young mural]

ah lmao

4% DR

thats hard cope

[plush roost]

I wonder which fights rogue gets dropped on

[hollow spear]

Wdym

[loud brook]

there are good days and bad days its common wow, warlock was like dog tier last 2 expansions its not like a surprise they be powerful now

[plush roost]

Theres not many environemental damage fights are there?

Like stix

[hollow spear]

Acting like 3.6% dr sucks is kinda off tbh

[young mural]

lmao

[plush roost]

Wall breaks in fractilus environmental or boss?

[lucid jackal]

Atro

[hollow spear]

It's not the greatest raid buff

[wicked urchin]

it’d be better if it applied to everything

[hollow spear]

But acting like it hasn't been a reason rogue was brought

Kinda hilarious

[young mural]

you'd rather bring a 10% attack power warrior or a rogue with 3.6% DR

[wicked urchin]

it is the reason

nobody has denied that

[plush roost]

Youd bring both

[north schooner]

why is guy being a doomer? did he swap souls with zac?

[hollow spear]

Wdym

[plush roost]

Prot war

[hollow spear]

You can bring a prot

[lucid jackal]

U wouldn't chose between warrior buff or rogue lol, ud play both buffs

[hollow spear]

There's no such thing as a rogue tank is there

[young mural]

yhea what im trying to say

but yall cant get any nuance

is

[lucid jackal]

What Ur trying to say makes no sense

[hollow spear]

Lmao

[young mural]

if you had to choose

what would you choose?

[hollow spear]

You're just making no sense

[lucid jackal]

But it's a false choice

[wicked urchin]

you are not making any sense at all

[plush roost]

Raids arent 5 man groups xd

[wicked urchin]

when is there a choice?

[young mural]

just saying what rogue brings to the table is ass compared to pretty much every other class, and thats one of the reasons its been hard to get into keys as rogue etc

[hollow spear]

You're making up a choice that doesn't exist

We're talking about raid

[lucid jackal]

There's no choice, when Ur making an ideal raid comp Ur bringing everything except like, evoker buff lol

[hollow spear]

Stop bringing up m+

[lucid jackal]

The convo is abt raid idc about key comps

[tight sequoia]

For raid comp the dr is kinda inconsistent ngl

[lucid jackal]

This isn't true

[plush roost]

Rogue isnt taken to keys because its profile wasnt required for the meta last season that is all. It does phenominal in m+ to the comps that take it. This is also about raid not m+ but i digress

[lucid jackal]

It's on average just better than ret aura

[hollow spear]

Acting like the exception is the rule

[lucid jackal]

Dev aura *

[hollow spear]

It's also a raid buff that you cannot get from tanks or healers

[tight sequoia]

Well rogue is only played because it has atrophic les be real

[young mural]

yhea i agree, but if you guys are completely lying to yourselves if youre saying 3.6% DR aura is even comparable to what other classes bring into raid

thats hard cope

[lucid jackal]

Who is saying that

Who are u arguing with

[plush roost]

Its not about a comparison tho

[lucid jackal]

Anybody in here say that?

[hollow spear]

Strawmen?

[lucid jackal]

Anybody raise their hand if they said that atro is as good as shout?

[young mural]

damage checks havent even been something in raids for a while now

[lucid jackal]

?

[plush roost]

Lll

[wicked urchin]

dude for one nobody is comparing that but 4% dr is huge

[plush roost]

Lololol

LOLLLLL

maybe not on week 8

[hollow spear]

Deadge

[lucid jackal]

Lololol

No dps checks

I'm deD

[tight sequoia]

Damage checks are returning this time around

5 minute patchwerk time

[young mural]

are you braindead??

[wheat edge]

Has rogue not been brought to a end boss since atro was introduced?

[young mural]

DPS checks a lot

[wicked urchin]

are you

sorry getting too sassy

[lucid jackal]

Ur the one that said it?

[young mural]

but healing checks exist nowadays?

[plush roost]

Yes both things exist

[tight sequoia]

Well

[hollow spear]

Ever seen Kyveza?

[keen dome]

Why wouldn't you bring a Rogue for the DR though, there's 20 spots. There's room for a Rogue most of the time. Like, it's DR, it's useful.

[tight sequoia]

I was in a top 1000 guild

[latent finch]

No dps check if you play in wr1000 like me

[lucid jackal]

Mugzee was a dps check too lol

Tf

[plush roost]

Its crazy to assume otherwise

[young mural]

sure

yhea my bad im wrong

[plush roost]

Did you prog mugzee pre nerf?

[young mural]

3.6% DR is insane, every guild doing prog should have a rogue in comp

[plush roost]

OaB attendant dps check?

[lucid jackal]

U finally figured it out