subtlety

[wheat edge]

soul hunters is still a big questionmark in my mind

[tepid trellis]

sub just deals better with add spawns

[vale pine]

!guide all guides are equally good

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[warm marlin]

assa on fractilius, maybe loomithar, rest sub imo

[tepid trellis]

almost the same single target

while being burstier

[dry plank]

Dw 1 aura buff for sin and no questions left

[wild vine]

Out of protest I will play sub on every fb sin fight and ds sin on every other

[vale pine]

Sub is in the end rly good tbh

[bleak night]

No you have to play ds sub

Try protesting now nerd

[wild vine]

Im not suicidal

[tepid trellis]

all that really matters anyway is gonna be what you play on the last 2

[stiff stirrup]

Any outlaw chances for raid?

[bleak night]

[upbeat oracle]

god forbid that

[short radish]

in the end it doesn't even matter though

[wild vine]

Dont try to bring us hell

[wild vine]

https://tenor.com/view/linkin-park-in-the-end-linkin-park-in-the-end-music-chester-bennington-gif-26242393

[short radish]

✊

[vale pine]

well we will see, as stealthi mentioned, the last fights are typically the important ones

last tier it was clearly a win for sin

because the end boss was mugzee

[short radish]

sorry if you took me seriously. i was just quoting linkin park

[bleak night]

I played sub on mugzee

Just get to the fight so late it doesn't matter what you play

[short radish]

yeah exactly

[vale pine]

this tier we have a good chance to see play

[short radish]

[tepid trellis]

only fight i see being assa, is fractilus

[keen dome]

[tepid trellis]

and even then it requires your assa set to be better than the sub set

[vale pine]

first 2 ?

[tepid trellis]

and if you are gearing thats not always possible

[tepid trellis]

i do not think so no

[keen dome]

Sub season best season. Ethereal season, too, so it's fitting. Purple stonks.

[vale pine]

interessting

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/kronk-point-debate-argument-angel-gif-17274775

[proud parcel]

im so 50/50 right now but im also only 670 with no LoU tier, some packs im pumping top dps sometimes im fighting for tank damage D:

[keen dome]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[keen dome]

That's how it be

[young roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

first boss has forced downtime and lets be real is a hc boss, but the downtime should favor burst a bit more
as for 2nd boss lomithar it just depends how much value you can get from the dmg amp and how much there is a need for swapping to the orb

[wild vine]

They gotta give sub some more attention so we finally get out of the low

[keen dome]

But the low is there so we get the high

If they buff the low they'll nerf the high

Personally I think they should buff the high more so I guess that means they disconnect us during the low or turn us into a statute or something.

[stiff stirrup]

I don’t see any more buffs for sub or assa

[wild vine]

Oh I meant low as in getting overshadowed by others

[keen dome]

Oooh, fair.

[short radish]

highs are only reserved for classes that benefit from PI

[patent moss]

so sub it is

[bleak night]

i always advocate for me to be given pi so no one feels like someone got an unfair advantage

[wild vine]

Just gotta PI the tank

[bleak night]

nah they'd get more out of it

[pearl swan]

any1 have the tier set % sheet?

[short radish]

still in production

[vale pine]

i actually wonder if you can cheese first fight with strike teleport

[short radish]

wym

[vale pine]

well you know

[short radish]

oh on mythic

when the wall comes through

[vale pine]

we had many fights a boss teleports away

[open vortex]

if you try to shadowstep through the wall it apparently kills you

[vale pine]

and if you used vanish-strike

you could, with correct timing

well follow the teleport

sooo

[vale pine]

might kill you then too, unlucky

[carmine portal]

Yeah I dont think it's about blink style abilities. I believe using the cloak gives you a buff that makes you immune

Because the cloak has a dash animation rather than an instant blink

[short radish]

yeah we've shadowstepped through mines and died on mugzee right?

[rocky ocean]

you also get debuffs from things like firebeams in mechagon

it's dumb that it's not a blink

[alpine wraith]

razageth ehehe

[short radish]

fuck mages

[topaz egret]

Shimmer/blink is also not a teleport

works the same way

if u check a wclogs replay you can see your character moving very fast

[alpine wraith]

yea there were some situations on halondrus

my man kush may remember

[haughty mural]

Ah I remember that
Thought that was a encounter specific bug back then

[alpine wraith]

it could also happen in painsmith

if you tried to blink through the spikes

[rocky ocean]

were they painful?

[vale pine]

you could step over them unless i missremember

step = shadowstep

[alpine wraith]

yea just blink had that problem sometimes

step was fine

[loud brook]

can i bind shadow dance with symbols of death

/cast shadow dance
/cast symbols of death

doesnt seem to work. and is there potential cases where this is a dps lost? i understand the part where I need some individual press of symbols of death, but I assume this is safe to be a shadow dance button

[vale pine]

you typically want dance and symbols on seperate binds

because of 90 second windows you dance back to back and might not want to symbols again early

[loud brook]

wdym symbols again early, is it that the second dance in dance back to back not covered with a symbol?

[alpine wraith]

you want to use symbols before or 1 finisher before sec tech

that can happen in the first dance even now with new 4p

so you would send a sec tech with no supercharger if you macroed it

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[short radish]

!symbols

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[short radish]

!dance

[alpine wraith]

and in ones that are not the pull ones you may use sec tech later on the second dance

not first 2 finishers

once again using sec tech without supercharger

[loud brook]

ya im too new for these sort of tips lol, im looking into it more. thx tho

[rocky ocean]

I changed like 3 guilds, and every sub player I encountered very often used sec tech as 3rd finisher

what's even funnier being a better rogue didn't help me stay in a guild

[alpine wraith]

dont worry asking is the beginning

[haughty mural]

Afaik you won’t press symbols and dance exactly together all the time

[short radish]

are you playing on a dragonflight pserver?

[rocky ocean]

no, the russian ones

[short radish]

oh theyre russian. say no more

[frigid prawn]

Actually why do we press symbols, after that a finisher and then sectec with only 1 supercharger. I thought 2 supercharger are just better? Or is it for danse macabre?

[alpine wraith]

sometimes you use symbols to get cdr to use sec tech next

actually quite often

[keen dome]

When I was doing M+ on my tank prior to season, and some M0's this week? I invited a Rogue to every group I could. WHY ARE ROGUES SO BAD, MAN??

[rocky ocean]

rogue specs punish you more for not knowing things

sub is borderline unplayable if done intuitively

[keen dome]

Sub with a mace OH and not pushing shadow dance once. Then got annoyed at me when I suggested he use shadow dance. "I don't like that ability"

[alpine wraith]

ahahaha

that is the problem of big time welfare gear

you can be 680 and be clueless

[keen dome]

On the other hand that guy is living his best life playing the game the way he wants..

[alpine wraith]

but he is having fun for sure

[rocky ocean]

[loud brook]

i feel like this class in all just punish you a lot for not knowing. you have to know a lot and execute a lot to even do baseline as other class

[keen dome]

Yeah, Rogue is very knowledge dense.

[wicked urchin]

honestly i initially found it crazy how people considered sub difficult

[alpine wraith]

sub is not difficult just complicated

you do the same things every time

[wicked urchin]

but like juce said it’s just insanely punishing

[alpine wraith]

yep now at least people's brain only need to process some cdr

at most

[keen dome]

Yeah. Sub just requires knowledge and practice. It's confusing initially, and has some hard rules you gotta follow

[haughty mural]

As long time subbers we can always say how easy sub has become/ever was

[grand wyvern]

i am aso used to sub it feels easy, until i try other classes i have no muscle memory for and remember how hard it was

[haughty mural]

But it’s so unintuitive that newer people are often really lost

[wicked urchin]

i find sub way easier than assa

not saying i think assa is difficult

[keen dome]

I always feel like easy / difficult is too subjective to describe it.

[wicked urchin]

absolutely

[haughty mural]

That’s the most important yes

[keen dome]

Complex spec with rules about pushing the fun buttons

[alpine wraith]

yea holding cds

and using them together

BUT NOT THAT ONE

NOT YET

wait

wait

now

[keen dome]

Precisely, haha

[alpine wraith]

GOOD JOB

me when coaching someone

[keen dome]

The CDR element, using the cooldowns at the right moment consistently and understanding how to have them up for the next one, too. Planning where and when to use them and shifting as needed. Understanding why we do X or Y in Y or X situation.

[wicked urchin]

when i started relearning sub last season i’d constantly use a dance charge when i shouldn’t and fuck myself

[grand wyvern]

it's particularly hard for sub to hold because you hit like a wet noodle so you feel like you have to press something

[wicked urchin]

especially if there was any downtime

[keen dome]

All the minutiae adding up

[alpine wraith]

wait until the wars for dry sec techs by calculating cdr for next dance begin

sometimes you can fit 1 or 2 dry sec techs

in a 90 s situation in between dances

[wicked urchin]

minmaxing sub was really fun though

[keen dome]

It is, I love it.

I legitimately enjoy the puzzle in M+ in a pug setting.

Figuing out the optimal time to go big and trying to figure out the tanks route beforehand

[haughty mural]

Yes

[keen dome]

And then despairing

[wicked urchin]

finding moments when you’d have to hold flag for a few seconds and then be able to comfortably be able to fit a CB sectech earlier

[keen dome]

Because he decided that it's time to pull 1 mob and then go afk

[wicked urchin]

rewarding

[haughty mural]

But still being super aggressive with cds in pug m+

[keen dome]

Yeah, haha

Being aggresive with CD's and then feeling amazing when it all lines up

[grand wyvern]

the best feeling is when you lined up every thing to blast and boss is next but the tank decides to pull another trash pack first +_+

[keen dome]

In that situation you are the tank.

It's time to pull the boss.

[wicked urchin]

i was disappointed with gally but it was super fun to optimize

[grand wyvern]

that's why they gave us tricks of the trade

[wicked urchin]

i stopped playing sub in keys because of that

i’m very optimistic with this tier will play out

[short radish]

tbh

once sub makes sense

its kinda chill

[wicked urchin]

you just blast and afk

what’s more chill than that

[short radish]

yeah

you dont react to procs

[alpine wraith]

i think more than 1 keyboard somewhere has died to coup and shadowcraft refunds

and striking just after

[keen dome]

Haha

[alpine wraith]

i even had to refilm the opener on ptr many times because of lag

[wicked urchin]

just reading this made me angry

[rocky ocean]

peak gam,e design

[wicked urchin]

is there an optimal spell queue window for that?

I haven’t touched mine in forever

[alpine wraith]

there is no solution kinda

[haughty mural]

We are the same

[alpine wraith]

because you would need to be spamming evis

i mean you can look at the sht stacks

and count every coup hit

[haughty mural]

But can’t do that every single time

Especially if other things are going on

[wicked urchin]

with a lower sqw you should be able to override it though no?

[alpine wraith]

well you will get used to spamming evis instead of strike in coups

then just use strike if last hit didnt proc shadowcraft

[wicked urchin]

yeah i do most of the time but it’s super annoying when you’re focusing on other things and it happens

i’m pretty sure with a low sqw you can override an accidental strike with an evis before the next global though

i might be wrong though

[haughty mural]

That’s one thing that would be awesome with midnight:
Coup one fucking hit

So you can avoid this stuff

[grand wyvern]

would lower sqw affect traying to chain dances?

[wicked urchin]

wont affect anything off gcd

[grand wyvern]

but i feel like dance has a queue when dance is in progress and you press dance slightly before it ends it will chain another one, am i tripping?

[rocky ocean]

I kinda got used to predicting this shit, but its far from perfect

[alpine wraith]

they made it so you cant dance while dance is up

or use stealth at all

so yes you can spam dance and it will chain

[cursive vapor]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[wicked urchin]

i’m going to assume spell queue works with dance because if it didn’t and you pressed it 1ms before the first dance was finishing it wouldn’t trigger

it’s never really mattered for me though because i usually recast it in between a global

[vale pine]

dance is off gcd

[grand wyvern]

i feel like it matters if you play the first dance and you press your second sec tec in your first dance, the shadow hits may not land in dance if you don't chain it

[wicked urchin]

i said that earlier! i just wasn’t sure if there was some sort of spell queue either way

[vale pine]

spell queue is only for gcd spells

as you need to be off the gcd to trigger them

[wicked urchin]

good to know

I was just thinking there might be a different queue window because i’ve pressed dance at the last few ms and had it still trigger but that’s probably just a feeling

[grand wyvern]

lag? 😄

[wicked urchin]

big thing in fps games with slow fire weapons where if you press early it’ll still register

definitely not lag

it’s common in all fps

[carmine portal]

Im just dense

[wicked urchin]

same

[keen dome]

same

[bleak night]

danse*

[carmine portal]

Who up dancin on they macabre

[clever delta]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[clever delta]

Nothing new 🙁

[normal lake]

can some1 explain why on 5target 3 min sometimes sim use evi sometimes black powder? what buff or debuff is active

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft, a talent

Oh wait i cant read

4 find weaknesses up the threshold for BP

[frigid prawn]

Damn so you can hold danse stacks gor 2nd shadow dance?

[hazy breach]

No

[alpine wraith]

no you just go into dance immediately

because it is off gcd

[steel zinc]

FW uptime decides the finisher

[stiff stirrup]

Is there a wa to track how many targets have find weakness?

[short radish]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dire pulsar]

What way the find weakness tracker should be used ? Evi one target without the buff if shown, and just BP if shown ? Sry if dumb but beginner here and i m kinda lost with all tracking needed in rogue. I m coming from dh, and dk tank main 🙂

[alpine wraith]

it shows which finisher to use

but idk if it was updated to new rules

you bp on 4 even with no fw conditions

[dire pulsar]

Also do we symbol + dance on cd ? just wait if big cd come soon ?

[alpine wraith]

you dont symbols and dance on cd no

it is a bit different think more about sec tech cooldown

• having enough dance and SoD for flag window

[dire pulsar]

ok ok, so i do if Sectech is up, And if i have enought for cd right ? in cd its two dance + symbol correct ?

[alpine wraith]

most general things

but there are also good guides on wowhead etc. that explain it fully too

you sec tech on cd

and depending on flag SoD and dance you do one thing or another

and if flag is close you dont sec tech too

[dire pulsar]

ok ok, i have read the guide but kinda lost a bit. thanks for clarification.

[loud brook]

where can I find this documnet?

[alpine wraith]

it is on my profile

[knotty depot]

Really the BP rules confuse me so much in practice still, that's gonna take a while

[alpine wraith]

think fuu streamlined them a lot

[knotty depot]

yeah I see something diff in wowhead guide than I've seen here

which kinda left me even more confused haha

[alpine wraith]

not really think it was 4 targets you bp 3 in blades/FW or something

let me check

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[alpine wraith]

yea 4 or more targets

that works the blades thing might be on some further optimizations

[hazy breach]

Just look at a find weakness tracker and If the number is 4 or higher you press BP. The one linked here also changes icons based on what to cast too

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[normal lake]

okay so i use shadowstrike as combo builder in shadowdance and shuriken outside shadowdance, only use backstab as 1st combo builder in shadowdance? and just use fw tracker to find what finisher use ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[normal lake]

damn I finally understood it xp

[twin surge]

When using Find weakness tracker sometimes shows flawless form icon.. what does it actually mean when its showing flawless form?

[vale pine]

you can just do 4+ targets instead of tracking find weakness

the diffrence is extremely small, and it might be easier

if you hit bp on 3 sometimes its also not bad while doing so

[rocky ocean]

Isn’t it practically more useful to eviscerate and kill big target

Talking about like 5 target pulls

[wild vine]

Oh no, the funnel propaganda

[haughty mural]

Sure if prio is needed do the prio

[haughty mural]

No one mentions funnel

[wild vine]

Prio > overall is only useful if the group struggles because of exactly that one target

[warm marlin]

you still do good prio anyway casting shadowstrike as your primary builder + coup + unseen blade, but yes the damage difference is relatively small so that's a choice you can make

[wild vine]

It overall is funnel tho

[warm marlin]

if its very important obviously you can even continue eviscerating in large target pulls but you will do a lot more damage pressing bp

[wild vine]

Maybe not in dance, but all in all

[rocky ocean]

I think they should buff bp 1 more time to eliminate that aspect

[uneven shard]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

it depends on the pull, but doing so has higher prio damage

[haughty mural]

Alright

[haughty rose]

how we feeling about sub? still on vacation but can i be excited for playing when coming home?

[clever delta]

No, it's dead

[haughty rose]

assa still >?

[clever delta]

Yes ass very pog

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

nah man sub is super good believe

we will destroy aug

they wont even see it coming

after that it depends on you

[placid elk]

i do 9 mil dmg in some pulls in m0, im destroying these people who dont even know the routes. sub rules

[vale pine]

subtlety is good, assassiantion will probably be rly good

we might see sub played in the wfr tho

[fiery grove]

Hasn’t sub been played in both races so far?

[vale pine]

yes

subtlety is typically good early on

but also if you look over the entire tier

barely played

[wicked urchin]

surely barrier to entry plays a part in that too

even when it’s mid pack it has low player counts

compared to other specs

[kindred dock]

hey all. wish u happy gearing and alot of fun in s3 / manaforge 🙂

a question aside:
in big pulls. do we want to stack danse macabre before going into shuriken storm + black powder? :X i was playing around and it feels like but i can be totally wrong

[fiery grove]

I guess it makes sense why it would be good, great burst damage even without heaps of gear would be a no brainer to play sub in the race for a boss that needs burst

[hazy breach]

No, you dont storm+bp

[prisma rain]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[kindred dock]

enlighten me pls.

[wicked urchin]

it’s pretty inherently a good rwf spec as long as we’re tuned right

[hazy breach]

In dance youd strike to build CP

[vale pine]

tuning plays the biggest impact

if you look at tiers historically its almost only depending on tuning

[wicked urchin]

absolutely

[grand wyvern]

like people saying frost dk is so fun rn just because it does big dam

[vale pine]

there are a lot of other claims about simplicity/fun/etc

but when looking at actual play rate data

i could not find any corellation

[hazy breach]

Or the people saying sub feels way better to play this season

[vale pine]

frost dk is "fun"

because it is overtuned

[fiery grove]

I honestly preferred shadow dust version of sub

[vale pine]

people lvoe playing whats overtuned

turns out if you do 20%+ more than everyone else, thats a lot more exciting than whatever rotation there is

[kindred dock]

even in big pulls? ~8+
So i storm after dance. Okay. thank you

[kindred dock]

3 button specc :D?

[vale pine]

i think, as sad as it sounds

[wicked urchin]

and if you’re equally tuned and have a lot more survivability that’s huge

[vale pine]

if its one button

[wicked urchin]

which tbf isn’t usually the case

[vale pine]

but you are guaranteed to be #1 on the meter

[wheat edge]

I saw a youtube short where the guy said that people do not care about spec design at all, so if blizzard made a change to where you gain 5% DPS by chopping off your hand in the middle of the rotation, the only thing players would do is ask "Left or right?"

[vale pine]

its still better than a carefully crafted rotation with exciting gameplay

because output is the main factor people look at

[wicked urchin]

people just wanna blast

[grand wyvern]

tuning is important but i wish people wouldn't call for spec reworks just because tuning is bad

[vale pine]

it is why you saw assassiantion so strong in m+ since s3/4 DF

its aoe and funnel is extremely high tuned

[rapid forum]

and the animations slap

just like ret

[wicked urchin]

i haven’t looked at it but i’m gonna guess that even at subs stongest points the player count didn’t reflect that compared to other classes

post zul i guess? i didn’t play then

[vale pine]

so getting good output is easy, its easy and other specs don't compete even if they play perfect

[iron whale]

I've seen latest Bellular's videos with the class data
I knew the situation with rogues was bad, but I had no idea we were going extinct lol
especially subtlety, apparently being the worst?

[rapid forum]

dude

i tried other classes

[round latch]

stopped reading on bellular's data

[kindred dock]

maybe too hard to play :X

[hazy breach]

Dont think numbers are really going down

[vale pine]

it did, i linked wcl records showing it in a wowhead post i did a while ago

[rapid forum]

it is so much easier to deal good damage compared to on rogue

[hazy breach]

Theyve just been low forever

[wicked urchin]

Could you link it? I never saw it

[round latch]

thats basicly range vs melee

[wicked urchin]

would dig myself but i’m out with friends rn

[round latch]

range just has an easier life

[north schooner]

I am sure there was thorough research done by him

[rapid forum]

even other melees, i played a lot of dks and ret last season and right now as well, they are so much less nuanced than any of the 3 rogue speccs

[round latch]

extensive,thorough lfr data

[grand wyvern]

i think its a different skillset, i find range harder cause i can't move and i am not that good at positioning

[wicked urchin]

I’ve been rogue otp since day 1 for me

[rapid forum]

same

but cant imagine starting rogue now in 2025

[wicked urchin]

This is the tier for me to learn other specs

[vale pine]

Link to article
You can search for the headline Tuning to find the section.

[wicked urchin]

especially on the hunt for HoF now

[round latch]

well rogue is prolly the hardest class to play so ye,cant argue

[wicked urchin]

Thank you!

[rapid forum]

ye and our performance doesnt really justify that imo

like we are fine

but

the work you have to put in

for avg to fine/good performance

is insane

[round latch]

ive been playing more mage than rogue since last tier DF till now

[rapid forum]

in my opinion atleast

[round latch]

mage is ridiculously easier than rogue

i watch netflix and do keys

[wicked urchin]

i tried but i couldn’t adjust the the movement stuff with playing ranged

i know i’d be fine but after like 10 years

holy

[iron whale]

Fuu btw I am a casual player and don't play much wow anymore, but everytime I land in here and I see you as a pillar of sub rogues it makes my eyes bright, because I've always loved players who devote themselves to an identity rather than just roll whatever's cool at the moment

[rapid forum]

jokes on you

fuu only here because he thinks sub is cool

[round latch]

i find mage and fire specifically more annoying because bust windows kinda weird to set up but arcane is just magi setting up and orb funneling

[wicked urchin]

rogue discord is one of if not the best class discords in all of wow

[vale pine]

thanks 🙂

[round latch]

frost is just ezlife

[wicked urchin]

cuz we have people like @vale pine

[vale pine]

[iron whale]

conceptually I love the sub rogue, he's like a dark ghost that disappears and reappears to burst the target down and vanish again

[round latch]

The best,hands down

[rapid forum]

na outlaw vanishes

[iron whale]

the only issue is the overall gameplay feeling and execution, it feels so weak in certain scenarios and it's TOO MUCH visually repetitive

spamming shadowstrike and seeing the same animation repeating itself.... idk

[grand wyvern]

even max praised rogue discord and theorycrafters in his video

[round latch]

imagine akari's soul being still a thing

[wicked urchin]

i’m sure somehow it comes from the fact that we’ve been pretty left behind when it comes to blizzard but all of the wow theorycrafters here are game changers for all of us

[vale pine]

I am honest, i have not found a spec/class with better gameaplay since legion.
And i tried: mage, shadow priest, balance druid, dh and evoker.

i am a bit sad subtlety lost some of its uniqueness

it was always fun to have some more fun things other specs did not have

[wicked urchin]

this is my fuu and whispyr simp post

[grand wyvern]

i will add eleem that has the patience of a god dealing with noobs like me

[vale pine]

e.g. shadow dance is now on all 3 spec (even tho in form of vanish on outlaw/assassiantion), we don't have higher mobility than other rogue specs anymore, we don't have no fall damage and we can't walk on water during sprint anymore.

[vale pine]

eleem, solo, koji

[fallow nimbus]

Current havoc plays ok with the less movement dependencies

[vale pine]

we have a lot of very nice people

[wicked urchin]

that wasn’t exclusive to them at all there are several people here who have made huge impacts

[wheat edge]

I am so excited to try out the 12 slash blade dance with new tier

[wicked urchin]

also feel like shindigg brought a big spotlight to rogue recently which is super cool

[vale pine]

sorry to ask

who is shindigg

[rapid forum]

fuu living under a rock

[wicked urchin]

omg poor shin

[rapid forum]

true sub main

living in the shadows 24/7

[fiery grove]

Where have I heard that name before lol

[wicked urchin]

he did that “applying to a mythic raid guild” video that went pretty viral

he’s in idiot now i think

[worldly remnant]

I read in as an there

Thought how rude

[wicked urchin]

he’s also the guy who max brought on for his class tier list thing this season

[empty canyon]

He is a pretty good rogue who seems to enjoy the specc, not sure why people immediatly hate

[wicked urchin]

i wish i didn’t have a bunch of life stuff happen the past month i missed my guild app window

[empty canyon]

Omfg, it's a guild called idiot, I am the hater

sorry

[wicked urchin]

rogue needs people like him

hahahaha

i got a response from a top 150 but i was too late

[empty canyon]

Cuz I genuinely thought he had good vibes, so no idea why people were hating, it's just me who cant read

[wicked urchin]

oh well

they told me to reach out again after they’re on farm so optimistic about next season

[empty canyon]

also yes rogue discord is the best, it's the only one I check just for entertainment

[wicked urchin]

the very best

[fiery grove]

Haha yeah that’s right I watched his video

Gave me hope in one day raiding mythic lol

I’d probably have to learn to play assassin tho sadly

[wicked urchin]

getting into mythic is just about guild hopping

which is hard

low rank guilds spec does not matter at all if they’re even remotely close

[fiery grove]

Good point

I guess you don’t need to be in the top 200 guilds to raid mythic do you

Or am I wrong

[wicked urchin]

i started shadowlands having never step foot in mythic raid

i got CE the same tier

[fiery grove]

Nice

[wicked urchin]

took a lot of cringe heroic parsing and like 4-5 guilds but

made it happen

[fiery grove]

Did you find other guilds reached out to you or does that only happen at that higher echelon

[wicked urchin]

first few were just word of mouth from pugs

CE was through an app

[fiery grove]

Oh word

[wicked urchin]

ironically the last guild i thought i’d get into

initially applied because max coaches them and then they were the best friends i’ve ever had playing wow

[fiery grove]

That’s sick

Had a similar interaction in wrath classic

[vale pine]

i do when it comes to content creators

[fiery grove]

Pugged a max where I fucking blasted and one of the guys in there asked me to join his guild

Great friends with everyone from that guild still

[sand flax]

Hey @vale pine the latest pin message prefer Weaponmaster over First dance, and the latest sims use first dance.

Will we run FD for raid ?

[vale pine]

both is about equal.
You basically decide based on:

• TfD is strong initial burst, which is good on fights up to ~5 minutes, and even better if you have more adds during that phase.
• WM is strong on longer fights (e.g. in early progress), or fights the initial damage is not that important.
  So you can switch depending on your raids environment/encounter

[sand flax]

Thanks legend

Can’t wait to start raid

[alpine wraith]

let me tell you

in raid there is no fight rn where you would take WM

[lilac stag]

fwiw Eleem said it’s closer to 6-7 mins now. I haven’t bothered checking since I just plan on running TFD

[alpine wraith]

unless mythic dimensius is like 12 mins

[lilac stag]

and there pure pstchwerk

[alpine wraith]

and even then on most fights you end up using storm

and even using storm once or twice

already tanks WM

[vale pine]

ye, maybe worth to default to tfd as heroic won't have long fights

[scenic oxide]

Can you get a 2nd First Dance off by using Vanish cause that drops combat in theory?

[lilac stag]

we’re using storm with tier

movement

[vale pine]

nope

[alpine wraith]

so even less of WM value

[lilac stag]

It all tanks WM

[alpine wraith]

basically ignore wm

we all wm

[hazy breach]

Bosses keep you in combat regardless

[lyric violet]

Hi ppl, i want to ask to you how you manage the lost rating on secondary stats if you cap one of the stats

[lilac stag]

You don’t

Just sim top gear

[hazy breach]

As long as you dont put haste on the cloak it doesnt particularly matter

[lyric violet]

So avoid haste e simply sim what remain

Okidoki

Ty

[tribal blade]

you can't stop me

[fiery grove]

Can someone enlighten me and settle a debate, do sub rogues specifically really give af about heroism

Like it’s not a nothing buff

But is it make or break for the class in certain scenarios

[hollow spear]

It's a slight dps gain, but very minor compared to what other classes get from it

[fiery grove]

Yeah thats the way I thought about it

[hollow spear]

You'd never plan your lust around a sub rogue

[fiery grove]

Thanks heaps

[void hound]

pi on sub is less gain than on a tank, so you can imagine how much of an impact bloodlust is

[lilac stag]

You’re so putting haste on cloak for your main spec

[void hound]

youre so real for this

[warm marlin]

BL is a bit less of a gain than a power potion is in a 40 second sim

Not great

[lilac stag]

he’s also not pushing keys.

[lilac stag]

If I didn’t have a WA to announce lust I’d never know it was active on sub.

[fiery grove]

So to fully sum it all up a group would never plan BL around a sub rogue but would a sub rogue ever plan the cd’s around a Bl

I assume maybe for a fight like the last boss of rookery

[warm marlin]

you are probably better off just casting things when they come up than holding for lust

on a fight like last rookery you hold for the damage amp anyway

[fiery grove]

Yeah thought so

[warm marlin]

if lust happens to overlap its cool but nbd

[lilac stag]

If you need an add to die, dmg amp or a specific reason as to why it’s being held

otherwise you focus on you

[warm marlin]

but if you start a big pack in a dungeon and lust is coming up in 10 seconds, you will probably get more value casting asap while all the mobs are still alive and starting your cooldown than holding for lust

(unless you're spreading ruptures first or whatever but thats besides the point)

[iron whale]

@vale pine ey sorry for ping, I have a question:
do you have a build that works best for open world?
I don't really do mythic or raid, but I enjoy best open world and world pvp situations...
do you have a build + hero talents for that? 😮

[tight monolith]

wowhead

[iron whale]

it only gives me m+ and raid builds tho? 😮

[tight monolith]

he sorts out the wowhead

[tight monolith]

no

[vale pine]

you can just use the delve build, but also stay with the seaosn 2 build if you like that one

[iron whale]

🫡

[vale pine]

open world is fairly chill so you don't need much and you can change more towards your preferences

[iron whale]

I tried to personally make my own but idk how much they're good honestly

[fiery grove]

One last clarification this sentiment is only true for sub or do all three specs gain little value from BL

[rapid torrent]

Hi all sorry if this has been asked a bunch but just wanted to clarify since I've seen the FW tracker thrown around for choosing when to BP. Per the wowhead guide. ot sounds like we dont need to worry about how many targets have FW anymore and just send BP based on target count?

[vale pine]

trickster is prefered

it has also shorter cooldowns

[iron whale]

ok!

I just like edgy, and DEATHSTALKER feels way edgier :x

[vale pine]

something like this

[left jungle]

This season, subt uses thistle?

[vale pine]

i like to take stillshroud

[alpine wraith]

on m+ yes

[vale pine]

and the lower shroud cooldown

[tribal blade]

you're talenting a lot of dead talents

[alpine wraith]

dont forget nightrunner

[vale pine]

because you can use shroud as a mobility cooldown in solo play

[tribal blade]

that do very little

[alpine wraith]

that is 20% ms!

smh

[vale pine]

true

[tribal blade]

also not talenting DM is kinda crazy

[alpine wraith]

master of speed brrrr

[iron whale]

no weaponmaster?

[iron whale]

dm? 😮

ah dense macabre

[tribal blade]

oh i didn't even notice it's DS too haha

that makes it even more cursed

[wheat edge]

Dont they play DS in pvp?

[tribal blade]

maybe, but this is a PVE channel

i assume that's for PVE

[hollow spear]

I am quite dense, but is that macabre?

[vale pine]

you get a lot of restalehs

*restealths

[wheat edge]

yeah he asked with open world content + world pvp in mind

[vale pine]

so you get tfd a lot

especially when moving between mobs

[tribal blade]

oh right yeah i just scrolled up

[vale pine]

wm is very weak

[young mural]

what about embellishments now, are they less than 0.5% already? lmao

[tribal blade]

honestly if you wanna do open world efficiently go bleed sin

it's WAY better in open world than sub

use 3 gcds out of stealth and you've basically killed the mob

[vale pine]

embellishments follow the exact same pattern as last season

they are low impact but you still want them

if you want to craft fast, weapon with lense is probably the best option

if your guild raids mythic, you can in theory wait for first 2 mythic kills before crafting

[tribal blade]

my arms warr alt had a 681 ascendance axe

i got a champ track wep and upgraded it to 691

[vale pine]

ascendance is fine too

[tribal blade]

was +2.2% dps

[vale pine]

ye weapon dps is huge

[tribal blade]

oh yeah

and i guess embels are just that low impact now

i didn't expect the sim to be that big a number

with an embel wep

btw i've done some testing with the contract and WQs

[young mural]

Isnt lense a bit better this season?

[tribal blade]

you can get kareshi rep from literally all WQs in TWW

[young mural]

because we already have a LOT of secondary stats

[tribal blade]

and then you can continue getting contract rep on your alt on kareshi WQs

but not non-karesh WQs

[wheat edge]

yeah u can degen ur way to like 11 renown or something

[wild vine]

Sounds like a lot of effort for small rep

[wheat edge]

theres some pvp weekly quest that u can repeat aswell for more rep

[tribal blade]

i only have 1 alt i'm playing so there's no way i'm doing more than that

[empty canyon]

Boredom is the true enemy of dgen

degen

[tribal blade]

it was like more than a 1/4 of a bar

[wild vine]

You mean friend

[tribal blade]

so not insignificant

[empty canyon]

If I could barely do the delves I doubt this will be tempting

[tribal blade]

nothing else happening right now anyways

[empty canyon]

I am sorry, I know this is very counter wow discord, but I could go out and have a beer in the sun, or sit inside and do wq's 5 times xD beer wins

[left jungle]

Do we have enough deal volume? I think we need more

[wild vine]

Id call that pretty insignificant since it might or might not save you some time to get the Rune but also just costs you your sanity

[tribal blade]

haha nah not really

you're talking to a high key pusher

this is like childsplay compared to pugging title

[wicked urchin]

brother you can do both

[empty canyon]

trueeee

[vale pine]

lense is better in both seasons

[empty canyon]

Okay? You are talking to a certified idiot

[vale pine]

but ascendence is better on assassiantion

[wild vine]

Idk imo WQs are the most boring thing you could possibly do in WoW

[vale pine]

and the diffrence is low

sooo

if you want to switch between specs

[tribal blade]

hrm

[vale pine]

its not a bad craft

also, you can recraft any time

[tribal blade]

i don't know what i did to cause you to go 0-100

but calm down

[vale pine]

you never leveld in a classic xpac ^^

[tribal blade]

that's fair

[empty canyon]

How is calling myself a certified idiot going 0-100

[tribal blade]

OH mb haha

[wild vine]

Thats true, it might not be the worst thing anyone has done

[tribal blade]

i thought you were calling me a certified idiot

hahaha

that's my bad dude ❤️

[vale pine]

would rate you 70/100 because i am not sure if your pfp is a wizzard or not

[tribal blade]

TRUEEE

[empty canyon]

It's bloodborne, sorry

[vale pine]

oh, never played it

[left jungle]

What more stats should I bring this season compared to season2? Critical?

[vale pine]

did hear its good, but people also told me dark souls is insane and i found it mid at best

[vale pine]

yes

[left jungle]

Thank you

[empty canyon]

Emh, I think it and Sekiro is way better than dark souls for gameplay, so maybe you enjoy

[vale pine]

take this wich you, a chart of stats (for patchwerk) for all 3 specs

[tribal blade]

i assume at this point we're reaching high amounts of DR on mast and vers

[keen dome]

Where do I get a certification to become an idiot, though

Asking for myself

[empty canyon]

but you do pretty much play an outlaw rogue, using a sword and a gun

[tribal blade]

RIGHT HERE this guy

i can help you with that

[keen dome]

haha

[chrome palm]

I don’t think we are Dr on vers at all

[vale pine]

(just shows how stats are distributed on all 3 specs, you still need to sim for your ideal setup)

[chrome palm]

Doesn’t Dr only start at 30%?

[tribal blade]

was just about to say prob not for vers yeah

honestly can't remember the number

[vale pine]

likely, sim takes quite a bit of crit

[empty canyon]

I make certificates for my work at times, so I just made one for myself.

[wheat edge]

Sekiro DS3 and Elden Ring are some of the greatest gaming experiences I've had

[keen dome]

hell yeah

[tribal blade]

i think esp for tea talented the robot will start really wanting crit

[carmine portal]

biggest idiot rogue on AD?

thoughts?

[keen dome]

100%

[carmine portal]

i own the name stupid tho

so

[empty canyon]

I did not enjoy Elden Ring, cuz it was too open world for me, and felt like a worse gameplay than Sekiro and BB

[carmine portal]

i think i gotta take the title

[left jungle]

Thank you, but no haste still looks deformed

[chrome palm]

DS3 is an all time great, so is DS1 but it is a lot less approachable to some people and the bosses haven’t aged as well

[empty canyon]

I still think it's a masterpiece, its just not for me

[carmine portal]

utterly based

[wheat edge]

respectable

[carmine portal]

true respect for ppl who understand something is good just not for them

[wheat edge]

ER was my first souls game tho and then I went back and played everything

[empty canyon]

Same with the new zelda's, I think I need a more curated experience, and the older souls games were just that tiny bit more streamlined where I really enjoyed it

[carmine portal]

me? i don't like souls games at all but their world-wide beloved-ness is because they are works of art both in story and gameplay

[empty canyon]

But for me Sekiro and BB was like, the natural development of the game for how I played the game, so seeing Elden Ring go back to previous designs just put me off a bit. which I am not sure I ever let go off, also BB setting is the shit

[wheat edge]

sadly I do not have a ps4/ps5 so have yet to play BB, but from the story videos I've seen I love that kinda stuff

[vale pine]

i mean we need to take some haste

because two of the tier set pieces have it

and you can't get the 4 set bonus without 4 set pieces

but outside of that, pmuch any of the other 3 stats is good

[carmine portal]

this is probably a moronic question but

how soon should we be using our first catalyst? hero+ items?

I never usually think about it but this season im actually playing from the start so

[vale pine]

it rly depends on your guild

[empty canyon]

Like the idea that you get health back, by attacking after you take dmg, makes you start mashing corpses after they die to get health, and react to attack by attacking back quickly, making you act more and more like you are bloodlusted like becoming a beast

It's literally story telling translating into gameplay

[tribal blade]

i think you save it for a myth track piece unless you need to use it to make 4set

[vale pine]

^

[empty canyon]

and that gets me going

[short radish]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[vale pine]

but if you start mythic late

[carmine portal]

right-o guess I wont be using it for a while lol

[vale pine]

you might want to use it on heric piece

because at the time you get mythic loot

[tribal blade]

yeah getting 4set asap is big

[vale pine]

you likely have charges again

[left jungle]

Tier 3+@ is pretty good

[vale pine]

tier 2p is 10%
tier 2p + 4p is 30%

so yes

[carmine portal]

Sweet-o nice, prayge for me then bcus I'm A. Guildless B. going to be doing M+ mostly

[vale pine]

tier good

we like tier

makes us do big damage

[carmine portal]

Big damage in terms of Sub or big damage in terms of all DPS specs 😉

[vale pine]

i don't have enough information for that

like... idk if frost dk was nerfed enough

because it might be that they are still a bit op

and if the best class/spec is what we compare to

well "its not frost dk" is the best answer then

[carmine portal]

worst case scenario i got the haste ring from Worldboss for resto druid

[tribal blade]

i heard it was enough to make them not mandatory

[vale pine]

but between rogue specs, the diffrence seems low

[carmine portal]

ring alone is 6000 haste it's madness

[short radish]

damn how will DKs ever survive

[tribal blade]

one of my guildies is playing an alt fdk and said it's dmg profile is similar to sub right now where it does all it's dmg in cds

[tribal blade]

t r u e

[vale pine]

one of the aug tc's did say they are still one of the profiles with the highest baseline output

[tribal blade]

although grip is still mega busted

[carmine portal]

yeah but it's CDs are every 45seconds basically

[tribal blade]

in this dungeon pool

[vale pine]

between rogue

assassiantion is slightly ahead

if we trust sim numbers

outlaw even more

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[carmine portal]

Sub but shorter cooldowns ergo more dmg uptime

Tbh FDK is rlly fun

[vale pine]

as you see

[tepid canyon]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[carmine portal]

So much glowing stuff

[vale pine]

but sim numbers have certain shortcommings

basically, outlaws damage profile is fairly flat

and many of the bosses have adds or vulnerability phases

[tribal blade]

i like how you don't even show DS sub on there

A+

[vale pine]

fatebound assassinaiton, besides looking like "woa 200k more dps"

[grand wyvern]

we don't talk about DS

[left jungle]

That sim is dealing with tier.?

[vale pine]

ds sub is like 13-15% behind iirc

[carmine portal]

it literally doesn't exist

[vale pine]

so its worse than the diffrence on other specs

[short radish]

WOAH OUTLAW IS SIMMING HUGE DAMAGE DOES THIS MEAN OUTLAW WILL BE META THIS TIER?

[tribal blade]

YES 100% UPTIME ON EVERY BOSS GUARANTEED

[vale pine]

but fatebound also has the problem of being a "pure ingle target" spec

[carmine portal]

I was legit so excited when I rolled sub season 1 bcus i love the idea of Deathstalker being like omega funnel

but it's USELESS

[vale pine]

so if you add more targets it actually becomes worse

[carmine portal]

[short radish]

its okay you cna do that as assi

[vale pine]

sub has a lower trade off talent system

[short radish]

[vale pine]

so we can do big st

or cleave

[carmine portal]

ass is BORING and SHIT and I HATE IT

[vale pine]

while keeping almost the same single targte

[carmine portal]

(it's not shadowy/magical enough)

[short radish]

based and true

[vale pine]

so all combined, makes it probably sub favored for raiding

sadly we are likely not so lucky in m+

[short radish]

fuck playing assi

[carmine portal]

100% dmg amp go brrrrrr

[short radish]

i fall asleep playing that spec

[vale pine]

there are at least 3 dungeons in m+

we could be played over assa

but assa big aoe and funnel

[short radish]

dawnbreaker my beloved

[hollow spear]

sub buffs when?

[carmine portal]

True statement there are atleast 3 dungeons in M+

[short radish]

11.3 ptr

[hollow spear]

that soon?

[carmine portal]

lol

[short radish]

maybe copium

[hollow spear]

farkin hell

[vale pine]

haha, ye

[carmine portal]

❤️

[vale pine]

i have bad news for you

[short radish]

[carmine portal]

11.3 ptr does bro know something we don't

[vale pine]

||there probably won't be a 11.3||

[short radish]

no fated?

[hollow spear]

what is more likely fuu

11.3 or sub buffs

[warm marlin]

fated got taken out back

[hollow spear]

gun to the head

[short radish]

damn what a shame

[grand wyvern]

blizz needs money faster

[short radish]

i wont have to repeat the same fucking content over and over again

[warm marlin]

midnight prepatch in december/january

[scenic oxide]

Can you convince Ulria of this so my guild takes those numbers into account instead of 10% less for 4p?😅 don't know where or how the reach Ulria but apparently that's what my guild is using

[vale pine]

the most likely is that we see a new xpac announceemnt at gamescon and alpha soon after

[short radish]

@thick quest get pinged

[vale pine]

^ forward this to him

[warm marlin]

i believe ulria is using the numbers for upgrading 4p to 4p

[grand wyvern]

i'd take 10x more bugs gladly if they didn't do any public testing at all 🙁

[warm marlin]

which is why its only 20%

[vale pine]

and he might take it into account

ye 4p is 20%

2p is 10%

together its 30%

(roughly)

[warm marlin]

but that is compared to no bonus right

[vale pine]

yes

[warm marlin]

pretty sure hes comparing it to old 4pc

[vale pine]

well our old bonus is

~13% both combined

so even 2p2p beats old 4p

[warm marlin]

so 4p -> 4p is maybe closer to 20% only as a raw gain

[vale pine]

you gain item level too

[warm marlin]

at least im pretty sure thats how he arrived at 20%

no idea where it would come from otherwise

[vale pine]

but yes, maybe thats his very rough thought

some classes have very mediocre s2 sets

[hollow spear]

11.2 starting with a banger

old vs new

[vale pine]

nice

[carmine portal]

gz

[vale pine]

i got lily

[hollow spear]

get outta here

[carmine portal]

i ALMOST got lilly

dude couldn't trade it to me by like 2ilvls

so sad

[short radish]

[carmine portal]

but I got pacemaker and the Arakara last boss 1

[thick quest]

What the

[carmine portal]

lucky fucker

[vale pine]

i mean..

[hollow spear]

What the helly

[carmine portal]

[vale pine]

^ stealthi ...

[carmine portal]

insane luck on that guy

fkn nuts

[vale pine]

got everything

[hollow spear]

Stealthi wont see a prism for 4 weeks

calling it now

[vale pine]

haha

[grand wyvern]

did you guys get funnelled loot or are just disgustingly lucky?

[hollow spear]

used all his luck on M0

[carmine portal]

lucky

[crystal bone]

i got lily but it was fuckin warbound, so veteran track

[vale pine]

like lili is not super insane

but still a good trinket

and hoc got nerfed 😭

so fuck hoc

[steel zinc]

Is this no bonus what is from old 4p to new 2p new 4p?

[grand wyvern]

i got a belt, head, shoulder (where i have tier), 2min trinket, AMA

[left jungle]

Our Vers soft cap starting 25%~ right?

[short radish]

transmitter is only 1.7% worse than mythic HoC

[keen dome]

lmao

[short radish]

that being said it is large margin of error

so could be better!

(or way worse)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qTqv2GY5RqMfHgNxAM1zLE

also why is it large margin of error for that

is it because old trinket or something

[short radish]

dont think about it

[warm marlin]

anything below a certain % is run at low precision no

[left jungle]

Transmitter, worst trinket

[warm marlin]

its just because its so bad the precision doesnt matter

[short radish]

as long as youre not wearing a green cap you're all good

[haughty mural]

Oathsworn tenacity already higher ?

[left jungle]

Okay how do i know that i am not wearing grreen cap?

[vale pine]

lol

[short radish]

you're all good bro

but yeah don't worry about stat caps

just run simc top gear

[crystal bone]

im glad there are 2 trinkets in S tier that we can farm in keys

makes me less worried about when i get a raid trinket

[left jungle]

You mean that now i know thanks

[vale pine]

the item level diffrence is simple too high so you get scuffed results

[glacial haven]

any recomendation for sub content? like youtube or streamer

[vale pine]

e.g. if i put the old pieces in

it looks like the set is not worth much

because... item level

going +40 item level is not a thing you won't notice

[steel zinc]

but equal itemlevel

whats the uplift?

[vale pine]

can you get the old tier on 720?

or why is that relevant

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[vale pine]

this would be with every tier set on 684

which is what you want i assume

[crystal bone]

thats juicy

id consider us lucky this tier

[grand wyvern]

does this mean if new set didn't exist we wouldn't break old 4p no matter ilvl?

[crystal bone]

some other classes got very unlucky xd

[grand wyvern]

i think having power in tier is not very good, means we gonna suck until we get it

[crystal bone]

id rather be not good for the first 2-4 weeks than to be not good the next 4 months

[glacial haven]

any recomendations for sub rogue content? cant barely find stuff

[lone linden]

okay, why is my shadowblades a 1.2min CD, i thought it was 90 seconds, same as flag?

what have i done

[haughty mural]

New 2pc would be higher than old 4pc

[tribal blade]

is our 4 set seriously almost 30%? my god

[haughty mural]

So we would still break current tier asap even on same ilvl

[tribal blade]

so the new 2pc is actually stronger than the entire old 4pc

[haughty mural]

[tribal blade]

ok yeah so essentially get tier asap haha

even more than before

is everyone's tier these kinds of numbers, must be right

[crystal bone]

some classes dont even get the new 2p 4p

[alpine wraith]

at least we have 2p for sure week 1

[lone linden]

any ideas anyone, ive not play sub in many tiers, im not sure why my shadowblades is a 1.2min CD now? it doesnt line up with flag

[crystal bone]

catalyst charge and?

[tribal blade]

you're in warmode

[lone linden]

AH yeah okay ty ty

[tribal blade]

you have the pvp talent reducing blades cd

[lone linden]

thanks mate

[tribal blade]

ofc!

[alpine wraith]

the 2k rating or aotc

[crystal bone]

ohh yea

i forget about that every season

[alpine wraith]

although arguably the fastest way is to get 1600 in pvp

it is 3 solo shuffles or 4

but it can be hard

[crystal bone]

3-4 wins*

xD

[alpine wraith]

no wins

you get 300 rating or so even going 2-4

[crystal bone]

oh wow

but will u get a random hero piece during that

worth using the cata on

[alpine wraith]

no you do m+ for the hero piece

pvp does not drop gear

[crystal bone]

what is 2k rating?

all 8's?

[alpine wraith]

all 10s and some 11 was it

or all 10s or less i actually dont remember

[crystal bone]

all 10s was 2.5k i thought

[alpine wraith]

yea should be all 9s and some 8s

but idk

[grand wyvern]

probably all 7/8 is enough for 2k rating

[alpine wraith]

oh wait no first week should be higher

because you only have 1 side remember

but i guess someone will do the math

maybe all 8 is fine

[haughty mural]

Do you have the gains for outlaw by any chance ?

Im curious

[wild vine]

Thats why you were close to disagreeing with me earlier

You joined the enemy

[grand wyvern]

ok strategy question: given how strong tier is in the next vault would we take a champion tier piece over a hero non-tier?

[haughty mural]

Nah im just really curious

[wild vine]

Definitely, non tier hero isnt worth anything

[haughty mural]

[alpine wraith]

correct

even normal tier is worth because you would not use the last 2 steps of hero anyway

to waste gildeds

so they end up same ilvl

until you get mythic

[wild vine]

And you get non tier hero from m+

[alpine wraith]

dream is getting tier in delve row so it is HC

then a good cata item from m+ pr raid

and maybe luck in lfr

[lilac stag]

Dream is actually blizzard allowing tier in vault week 1

[alpine wraith]

it is very likely but who knows

[lilac stag]

wait for NA beta test

[alpine wraith]

as always

[lilac stag]

[crystal bone]

[alpine wraith]

i cant wait for people opening vault at 6

and getting S2 items

because fuck you from blizz

then getting AI responses for 1 week straight

in support

[wild vine]

That would be wild