subtlety

[vestal escarp]

the infamous barrier of boss dmg in m+

[hazy breach]

Idk from what ive seen from streamers sub st isnt actually that insane, its mostly doing big damage on "random" pulls

Obviously better than assa

[plush roost]

But is it better than my cleave build no IC no scent fatebound assa cook?

Hehe

(Yes)

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/you-have-a-problem-you-should-have-yourself-checked-get-help-mike-lowrey-marcus-burnett-gif-15028302

[lilac stag]

So the big sub burst / boss dmg is a lie? 🤯

[rocky ocean]

[plush roost]

Boo!

[honest basin]

No we're huge trust

(don't tell blizz tho)

[steel zinc]

you will play sub on dawnbreaker

or hybrid on assa

you do 0 boss dps as sin without any funnel

[slate marlin]

hybrid doesnt seem that good on ptr

[vestal escarp]

dk can take care of that

[lilac stag]

Hitem with that CBKB

[steel zinc]

it isnt

[plush roost]

Lowkey and im not even joking fatebound assa does good in that key and does good boss dps.

[steel zinc]

yeah but why play assa when you can just play sub that has better boss dps and aoe?

[rocky ocean]

Because assa will get buffed 10 times

[steel zinc]

like their are some keys assa is dogshit if you cant add trash onto boss and if the bosses where you cant get funnel is greater then 50% you play sub imo

and "dogshit"

but boss dps with bleed build is a joke

which is fine you need funnel

[plush roost]

Yeah fatebound is a meme but theres potential cookery here. Anyway bleed boss dps is horrendous agree agree, and rash has no execute so its even worse

[slate marlin]

sub will better than assa in dawnbreaker with current tuning

[plush roost]

Sub key for sure me thinks

[young crypt]

does sub benefit much in the god phys comp?

[steel zinc]

yeah but sub and sin just can play in every comp

just do dmg

sin is like a baby of dk and arcane s2

[hazy breach]

Warrior and shaman are the two best buffs, monk is good but not insane as we do like 50/50 phys magic

[patent lichen]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Maybe slightly more magic

[young crypt]

so dh viable for us too

[honest basin]

Dh buff good for sub, from my damage breakdowns it always seems like 55-60% magical damage

[slate marlin]

its like 1.8% dmg increase

[young crypt]

yuge

[hazy breach]

Warrior and shaman are the most important

[slate marlin]

warrior and shaman are like 5% each

[young crypt]

noted

[hazy breach]

But obviously not needed

Its just higher numbers

[slate marlin]

well m+ has become a raid buff stacking kinda

in raid you get all of them basicaly

[honest basin]

Necessary, bigger number make brain happier

[slate marlin]

shaman makes sub more fun too

[honest basin]

All I know is, number go up, brain happy
Number go down, voices come back

[slate marlin]

sht goes brrrrrr

[hazy breach]

Ye obviously higher number = more fun but its not like you want to slice your ballsack like a burrata if youre playing without a shaman anymore

[vestal escarp]

anymore?

[young crypt]

so we are looking at something like: prot war, r sham, sub rogue, feral/ww/havoc to cheese extra damage?

[vestal escarp]

wdym

[swift tinsel]

That imagery

Holy

But also accurate

[slate marlin]

i dont think you would take havoc there

[rotund pawn]

do we play current build until we get 4p in m+? or we swap on patch day

[lilac stag]

Imagine having a shaman!

[astral axle]

[alpine wraith]

new build is fine with current set too

just almost neutral

[rotund pawn]

thank you

[alpine wraith]

just new set superbuffs coups

so the finality bug is more present

[left ledge]

Ya old sht without windfury was

A little tragic

[hazy breach]

I have some other food related metaphors but ill keep em for later

[lilac stag]

any German metaphors?

[left ledge]

Just assemble exodia for sub in m+

And you have the best spec in the game

[alpine wraith]

of course my key

my buffs

PEASANTS UP MY DAMAGE

[vestal escarp]

sorry there's another exodia without rog doindg more dmg

[alpine wraith]

shaman warrior druid monk

[left ledge]

Fake news

But nice try

[lilac stag]

Peasants leave after first trash wipe.

[left ledge]

Sub rogue on top

Blizz has our back

[vestal escarp]

we'll see

[left ledge]

If there’s anyone better than us we will see another 11% bp buff

[alpine wraith]

well we can get an easy trinket at least

[left ledge]

Then who the fuck can step to us

HUH?

[lilac stag]

We need 23% after tier nerf

[left ledge]

Make it 3 11% buffs to bp

[lilac stag]

goalpost got moved

[bleak night]

im so mad we didnt get more bp buffs

[lilac stag]

Thanks blizzard

[left ledge]

Was that nerf real

Or a typo

I didn’t check again

They actually nerfed DS?

[slate marlin]

yep, amazing nerf

[lilac stag]

I don’t know how to activate DS from sub talents.

[vestal escarp]

sub DS specifically

[slate marlin]

ds even more dead

happyness at its fullest

[left ledge]

Poor oblivious fools

Clearly they nerfed it to prepare for the 10 in a row bp buffs

Get ready for a fucking masterclass balancing performance by bl*zzard

[slate marlin]

cant wait for the 11 in a row 11% bp buffs

[vestal escarp]

the first one in s1 was 40

or 35

[slate marlin]

bp now deals 200% dmg to your main target

[plush roost]

Get ready for black powder increased by 30%, if 2 or more targets are present

Evis will never be conqured

[vestal escarp]

follow the blood?

[left ledge]

[left ledge]

It is unfortunately conquered by green evis

[plush roost]

Ftb without the blood

[vestal escarp]

green evis is the goat finisher

[lilac stag]

So assa is getting Black powder to offset Fatebound?

[vestal escarp]

all hail green evis

[left ledge]

BP now does 400% increased damage to enemies that you can hit

Got the conditional in there to justify the 400%

[slate marlin]

bp now kills any target it touches, including friends

[left ledge]

Ok no joke

[plush roost]

Bp damage increased for each purple tmog you have equipped

[left ledge]

Give bp execute damage

[plush roost]

Oh shit let him cook

Okay i got this

Check it out

New talent

"Goremaws Demise"

10% bp damage, executes

[left ledge]

Holy I’m in

[plush roost]

Boom

Assa? More like cant be assa'd

[left ledge]

Swap from evis to bp below 35%

[plush roost]

Sub more like, subservient to black powder buffs

[vestal escarp]

bp on ST after 35%

[lilac stag]

BP should spread rupture to all targets hit.

[left ledge]

Honestly I would rather that than goremaw

[plush roost]

Indiscriminate Powder

[astral axle]

[jagged rover]

give another node for nado, where each tick also uses a max cp bp

[left ledge]

Hmm not a bad idea but

What if nado also just gave you EoN

[vestal escarp]

for what? more dmg?

[left ledge]

we love dmg

[vestal escarp]

at that point just ask for another 11%

[lilac stag]

What if BP gave EoN?

[young crypt]

When/how is it best to use tea in the ptr m+ build? Or do you just let it auto do its thing

[hazy breach]

I barely speak any german

[hazy breach]

Macro with dance

[astral axle]

are you a raichu IRL or is that just your favorite pokemon

[hazy breach]

Pikachu overglazed, raichu gets a bad rap

[plush roost]

My best childhood memory is evovling my pichu with volt tackle at level 68 into pikachu and instantly into raichu cause fk pikachu

[vestal escarp]

Nah raichu is stacked, decently fast with lightning rod fake out encore nuzzle a lot of shit

[maiden oar]

i like alolan raichu 👍 🏄‍♂️ 🏄‍♀️

[hazy breach]

Im not even much into pokemon anymore, but its an Ancient meme among some of my friends that ive never swapped my profile picture on Skype (and now disc)

So the pic stays

[warm marlin]

the skype days

[vestal escarp]

🦖

[swift tinsel]

Skype, Ventrilo, Curse Voice

The classics

[hazy breach]

Mumble 💀

[lilac stag]

IRC. Fuck talking. Hahah

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, IRC

[lilac stag]

one big channel for all rogue specs.

[vale pine]

lüge!

[vale pine]

ventrollo - tell me you are old without telling me

[swift tinsel]

I still hear the push to talk sound in my nightmares

That robotic bee-boop will haunt me forever lol

[vale pine]

haha

[steel zinc]

Kann er wirklich kein Deutsch? 😄

He doesnt speak German?

[vale pine]

i was joking ^^

he is not german, unlike me or others

[slate marlin]

cursed language

[honest basin]

I'm half German but I don't know any I'm too stupid to learn other languages

[slate marlin]

you also speak based

[honest basin]

Only when I mention how much I hate dust

Dust dead and buried and it's still my biggest opp

[chrome palm]

"ich bin ein berliner" 🙆‍♂️ 🔊 🔊 🔊 🍩

[vale pine]

i would not want to elarn it

[slate marlin]

neither do i

i know english and spanish

more than enough

[steel zinc]

German is the sub Rogue of languages

[chrome palm]

german is to english what sub is to assa

[slate marlin]

sub is love, german is not

[honest basin]

So it's fun but bad? Or

[slate marlin]

german is the 11.0 m+ sub rogue of languages

[ripe flame]

And knowing spanish you can sort of understand portuguese and italian since they sound like drunk spanish

[slate marlin]

yep its not hard to understand the portuguese at all

italian depends, sometimes their accent makes it a nightmare

[chrome palm]

the same is true for germanic languages to some degree

[ripe flame]

Dutch?

[alpine wraith]

yea

i have seen that one before

[chrome palm]

unserious language tbh

[swift tinsel]

Dutch is like hearing drunk German

It’s like the textbooks we got in middle school class to learn it lol

[nocturne oriole]

Don’t forget Mumble

[iron spear]

Is there a problem with Flagellation? I was doing it on different Bosses and the animation happened but the ability did not happen and also did not went on cd.

[swift tinsel]

I actually don’t think I ever used mumble

[hazy breach]

I am somewhere where they speak german, thats why i tried to say that i wasnt home in german ^^

[hazy breach]

Never experienced anything like that

You might be out of melee range?

[iron spear]

maybe lag or desync

[chrome palm]

id imagine a parry would put it on cd

[iron spear]

It also never happend to me before, but happend multiple times in the same dungeon

[chrome palm]

gotta be desync then

[alpine wraith]

think flag cant be parried anyway

[chrome palm]

why would he lie to me like this

now i look like an idiot

[hollow spear]

That guy, unreal

[honest basin]

Me when I spread misinformation on the internet

[ripe flame]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[steel zinc]

They fixed that

same with kingsbane

like in a 0.5 patch

[honest basin]

Nah flag has never been parriable, you're just crazy

[chrome palm]

[bleak night]

[lilac stag]

Never trust streamers

[alpine wraith]

only if it is a boss but on dungeons or dummies should not happen

or maybe not even bosses

after that fix yea

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitten-cat-meme-smack-hit-gif-14682331153624420698

[steel zinc]

raid bosses it did

its fixed now ages ago

[alpine wraith]

yea flag and kingsbane had funny situations

but same happened with things like warbreaker

[slate marlin]

ye kingsbane parry were for sure fun

[steel zinc]

it was worse in S3 S4 DF. During prog when assa was bis except smolderon if you parried in lust you could just go afk

[honest basin]

Not true, and I'm not gaslighting you

Pinkie promise

Xd

[bleak night]

[drifting fable]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[distant bison]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[alpine wraith]

what has been your highest sec tech in PTR?

just did a fast full stack prism into 17m

wonder how much is it fully buffed+pot

PTR PLEASE

[runic trail]

Perfectly playable

Just plan your moves in advance

[void ocean]

ltc vs 2nd coup

[alpine wraith]

i wanted to make some clips and maybe get ready for the full guide but man

1 ability per 4 secs

if it was not becasue tier gives double coup i could explain on live xd

[steel zinc]

Guys it's over. Hopeful preparing 4 wl

If this doesn't get nerfed enjoy 4 wl this rwf

[bleak night]

[steel zinc]

Rogue needs buffs

We gotta doom again

[steel jolt]

that would be funny/sad because my main is a warlock and i am planning to play rogue in S3

[upper narwhal]

But it's only A tier? Why would he prepare an A tier spec?

[vital urchin]

you know most of us are rwf raiders right

[steel zinc]

Yes ofc. Just that's how any decent mythic raiding works these days. Copy paste what they do

Literally

[brittle plinth]

I don't even know what rwf is

[vital urchin]

world first

[brittle plinth]

And the r?

Real? Rogue?!

[upper narwhal]

race to world first, it's the competition to clear mythic raid first

[vital urchin]

race

[brittle plinth]

Ah kk dope

[steel zinc]

And the comp u run per boss if you do early mythic progress trickles down

For example stix was not really possible the first 2 weeks without boomkin

Bandit warlock spriest etc

If you see on the big stage 3-4 wl getting stacked and are the core of the raid roster it will be copied just like any m+ comp gets copied

[void ocean]

its joever

[maiden oar]

its not over the 4 warlocks need my atrophic poison

[steel zinc]

100%

[maiden oar]

[bleak night]

true

warlocks infamously squishy class

[steel zinc]

Warlock is a tank spec in some wow parallel universe

[steel zinc]

Yeah true really can't imagine 😅

[void ocean]

healthstone 2 sec cast in 11.2 confirmed

[bleak night]

[maiden oar]

they will say thank you rogue for bringing the valuable poison that keeps me alive

and ill say np

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/my-job-here-is-done-bye-done-gif-14879937

[clever delta]

there always be class like that, last race it was WW

[alpine wraith]

surely we at least get 1 rogue in!

[stable plume]

Hey there! I'm new to rogue and have been trying out subtlety recently (mostly played assassination). On my target dummy ST rotation, I'm currently doing 2M as ST Assassination and only 1.5M as ST Subtlety. I'm pretty much just following exactly what Hekili says to do to practice muscle memory on my rotation. I'm currently only 663 iLVL. Any idea why my Subtlety training dummy rotation is so far behind?

[steel jolt]

dummies are not a great way to measure dps because they are buggy and a lot of stuff just doesn't work on them

sometimes people use pvp dummies too which also give distorted results

[runic trail]

A few things -

1. Take assassination target dummy numbers with a BIG pinch of salt. The dummies tend to sit on 1% HP a bunch of the time so you'll be in perma execute range. It skews results.
2. It may be worth linking a log/recording a dummy session to link here, just so people have something to have a look over.

[stable plume]

how do i log a target dummy session?

[runic trail]

Its hard to really say why exactly its behind without being able to see casts etc.

Same as standard logging, install the warcraft logs client and go from there.

[alpine wraith]

to log dummies you need to write /combatlog

to begin then /combatlog to end it

then upload it

[steel jolt]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/how-to-use-warcraft-logs-6341

[stable plume]

kk give me a few mins

i'll do 3m target dummy

[runic trail]

But yeah, sin on dummies is skewed upwards due to the execute

So thats a big thing to keep in mind

[alpine wraith]

is it just me or is antenna rigged to proc like 2 or 3 times at a time

da fuk is this behaviour

also bro the fuk are this DK talents

you can choose between free ams every 45 secs

or like 10-20% dr

[upper narwhal]

DKs were too squishy so they needed better defensives

[alpine wraith]

and we get 5%

[shell willow]

So Rogue rework for midnight?

[alpine wraith]

if target is fazed

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[upper narwhal]

Could be worse could be fatebound “defensive”

[alpine wraith]

or DS one

[upper narwhal]

DS at least has some value

[covert storm]

!blackpowder

!bp

:^(

[bleak night]

!fart

[echo lynx]

Is sub good as assa now?

[alpine wraith]

sub is quite good

but as good as assa? depending on m+ hmm

we are quite good on bosses

[stable plume]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JRZGjPYdD81TCmgh?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=26
Sprocket LFR Kill. Lmk what i'm doing wrong and how i can improve plz!

[alpine wraith]

ok finally managed to get the opener

holy lag

[teal night]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[chrome palm]

dungeons with high pure st will favor sub over sin

so sub is just better in dawnbreaker

[alpine wraith]

getting high TFD resets is also very good now

so we will need to see actual people trying shit

plenty of places you can get a sneaky vanish even before going into flags

maybe even go for 3 min prisms for those

going into a boss with tfd and prism

and doing 14m dps for like 30 secs

🦖

[honest saddle]

Any thoughts on the random shuriken the sim is tossing in?

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ngJWW8Rqyx6sVr5viWNtDw

[tepid trellis]

u talking about this one?

[bleak night]

idk im not really into the weeb shit but its fine

[tepid trellis]

it is indeed meant to do that

[honest saddle]

Thats the one

Assume for macabre stacks but cant figure out when or why

[tepid trellis]

its to not waste unseenblade procs

its just between 2 coup casts in blades

so if you dont get a shadowcraft refund

you just storm between them

[honest saddle]

Got it

[hoary moat]

how many Ruptures should i be having out in M+

was looking at the guide on WoWHead, couldnt find the asnwer

[tepid trellis]

what ever lives long enough

and not during cds

[hoary moat]

got it

[tepid trellis]

and dont delay cds so put em up inbetween

[hoary moat]

so its just more damage than Evisc? Even with Nimble Flurry?

as long as the mob lives the whole time

[tepid trellis]

your eviscerates when you arent in shadow dances

hit like wet napkin

and the targets dont need to live the whole duration

just a good amount of time

[hoary moat]

got it. i remember you used to do more damage to targets with Rupture up. is that no longer a mechanic?

[tepid trellis]

nope

[honest saddle]

It is with assassination

[tepid trellis]

got removed with nightblade

back in bfa

[honest saddle]

Talent

[hoary moat]

thanks

[rotund urchin]

It greatly affects the use of cold blood as a macro to always use together with secret technique, or is it better to leave it separately and use it at the best times to improve its potential?

[tribal blade]

if you want to use a CB macro to sectec make sure you have it on a seperate bind along with plain sectec

so during your 2nd dance in cds you use the CB macro, all other sectecs you press plain sectec button

[rotund urchin]

I understand, I think it would be better to use it without a macro and better to use it consciously. Ty

[lilac stag]

You just macro it to Sectech and have a separate bind for Sectech only. The only conscious thought you need for CB is use on second Sectech in blades/flag window.

You’re not using CB with anything besides Sectech

[azure thicket]

hey is there a good wa for target counting?

[lilac stag]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

The FW one is what you’re likely wanting

[chrome palm]

should i bp or evis here

[civic lake]

hello sub bois are the theory crafted builds posted anywhere? im wanting to swap back to sub for raid next tier and dont wanna walk in blind

[dry plank]

What is this wa? Number of targets?

[chrome palm]

Fw count

[topaz crow]

does anyone maybe have what crafted gear is best next season?

[chrome palm]

Dagger, bracer, ring, neck, belt

[topaz crow]

and what would be the like first one i should buy?

[slate marlin]

dagger

[chrome palm]

Dagger with gilded and then use the free heroic on whatever other piece you don’t get

[fallow drift]

what sub build is it for last boss rookery

if swapping at end

[tribal blade]

the standard M+ build

[vale pine]

good morning chat, whats the topic today?

[keen dome]

Poison toggle

[vale pine]

poisons should be weapon enchants

easy fix

[grand wyvern]

i want to ask about the bs/dance macro, if i use that macro i can't spam dance when is about to finish to chain it right?

[vale pine]

also if you want to mald about something, it seems like they just reverted lingering darkness for the fixes in the patchnotes

which means....

[keen dome]

[steel zinc]

Sim update? 🙂

[vale pine]

||Secret tehcnique clone attacks are back to be ignored||

[steel zinc]

Also more dooming need buffs

[vale pine]

Think koji pushed the changed, so i can do updates today

[steel zinc]

really?

[vale pine]

^

[steel zinc]

Ohh no new bugs?

[vale pine]

without and with ^^

its a old bug

that was fixed but now returns

kinda

[steel zinc]

ignored means?

[vale pine]

it means

shadow clone attacks

do the same damage

w/e of the buff

or to word it diffrently, lingering darkness does not work on secret techniques clone attacks

[keen dome]

It's fine, we don't need to play DS anyway

[vale pine]

ye

[steel zinc]

Oh only ds

[vale pine]

also we have lingering up during not 90 sec cooldowns

yes

trickster has no access to lingering darkness

[keen dome]

this is actually good because it means we're even less likely to play DS

Solid blizz W

[vale pine]

[nova cairn]

Out of curiosity, what is our peak burst

I saw Assa around like the 10 mill mark during their windows

[steel zinc]

St?

or aoe?

[brisk onyx]

pet(clone) and shadowed damage is really a disaster for sub

[nova cairn]

I’m pretty sure ST

[runic trail]

Hi, I fell asleep and missed this

[steel zinc]

Peak now retail is like 13-14 Mil. Atleast double that on ptr

[civic lake]

@vale pine what are them 11.2 builds i ddidnt see them or get a responce to my message about them 🥲

[steel zinc]

Sub has the highest burst on a pure st

in lust some classes come close

Evoker burst isnt as crazy anymore

[grand wyvern]

what does it mean peak tho? doesn't it depend on how you sample it?

[steel zinc]

peak is the peak of your cooldowns

[nova cairn]

Our peak will be

1min 30

[grand wyvern]

yes but if you take a point every 0.1 sec you are gonna see a different number than if you take it every 0.5s

[grand wyvern]

it's a dumb metric

[steel zinc]

no hell no it isnt

Your peak in a dmg amp is the point you build up to

So your final sectech

that is important

[grand wyvern]

no you want to look at your total damage during amp, which is the integral of dps not the peak dps

[fleet wharf]

if it makes it any easier, the area under the curve is the total damage, so I do think it does matter quite a bit

[nova cairn]

Also

Are you still gonna craft dagger

When your bis dagger drops of mythic 2nd boss

[steel zinc]

Thats a typical dmg opener breakdown

and thats on pull

2nd sectech is 16% of your dmg

[grand wyvern]

so?

[nova cairn]

CB sectec?

[steel zinc]

yes imo because you will have as assa that one in the offhand

[distant bison]

thistle tea and extra energy feels way smoother in m+ compared to cold blood. if u have to feint during ur burst u ll lose globals sometimes... how much dps do i lose if i play energy/tea talents compared to cold bblood?

[steel zinc]

Tea is better for s3

[distant bison]

YES!

[nova cairn]

That’s a feels good

Don’t feel like you’re getting rng carried by drops if it goes to shit

[steel zinc]

Weapon is the biggest upgrade next to tier and prism for sub

[distant bison]

@steel zinc what abbout shuriken storm in certain dgs? like priory

[nova cairn]

Our tier is stonks tho right

[steel zinc]

As like every season you need Weapon, Tier, Trinket and the rest is just fluff

[stiff remnant]

is there a list of the best trinkets for Sub in S3 somewhere?

[keen dome]

I'm going to craft a dagger week 1 after grinding gilded, then week 2 pull the same haste / versa dagger from vault and cry.

[steel zinc]

You mean Tornado?

[distant bison]

yeah

typo loll

[nova cairn]

Mapko did a sim

[steel zinc]

yeah did that for varrios itemlevel

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3DnXbqY2d9MxSzJGD2Q8PS

here but its everything itemlevel 723

[stiff remnant]

gotcha thank you

[steel zinc]

it sims best imo I wont play it cba.

[nova cairn]

@steel zinc pvp trinket didn’t seem bad for 1st trinket if the season

Of*

[steel zinc]

yeah it is really good

its according to sim the best trinket until itemlevel 710 and pvp only goes 704

the new mastery on use trinket lilly sth is utter dogs****

[nova cairn]

I’m surprised

That missed a buff

[distant bison]

i dont raid are they gonnna have a dinar system again?

[nova cairn]

Not sure

[steel zinc]

No one knows but since Turbo boost was really well reviced you can expect so.

Also the 2nd Boss Mythic dropps everything for sub rogue

And you pug 2 Mythic np

[runic trail]

Okay, I ain't the best at sub so, take this with a pinch of salt but there's a few things I noticed.

1. on shorter fights, swap your talent point in weapon master to 'the first dancr'
2. minor optimisation but use your cold blood on the second sectec in your coolfown window
   3)your second cooldown set kind of went... Very wrong. There's 10 seconds between flag and dance, and after dance you're sending sectec without shadow blades.

I probably ain't the best person for a log review but, those were some things I noticed. If you do !log then the bot can make a thread and hopefully someone competent can look at it!

[nova cairn]

Sorry for the wack question, with the new 4p will we get another dance in between our opener and our CDs coming back at 1:30

[fleet wharf]

you can squeeze it in, but it's a damage loss to force it

Ryldd is the one who tried it out in ptr, so you can direct questions at him

[vale pine]

builds are largely unchanged

we don't play finality on single target

and there is the possibility to not play shadowcraft in m+ (tho not mandatory)

[sinful zephyr]

It is nice to have some choices again

[steel zinc]

you just go dances b2b

like you just try to get 1 dance charge bevor 20 sec bevor cds

and have 2 then for cds

Also people ask if you play sin or sub in m+ for your sanity in a pug play sub. Since tanks that just yolo pull with a mob at 10% will just make you want to jump off a cliff

[keen dome]

Also people ask if you play sin or sub in m+ for your sanity in a pug play sub all you need.

[grand wyvern]

people will invite assa, so you get invited and switch to sub

[keen dome]

People invite Sub too

[crisp karma]

is this a bug or why is my shadowstrike not giving me cps?

[nova cairn]

As in all 3 dances b2b?

[crisp karma]

ive had it happen like 10 times from just hitting dummy for 30 minutes

when dance ends

[vale pine]

looks a lot like a fixed bug

^^

but the fixed bug wa only with refunds

maybe its a odditie with the dummies

would recommend only using the ones in OG

or SW if you are alliance

[steel zinc]

Depends in aoe 100%

[bronze turret]

@vale pine sub back?

[clever delta]

Or black

[vale pine]

kinda

its basically like this:
Subtlety is 2nd in terms of raw output (assassiantion is best by quite a bit)

but subtlety has good burst and better target switching, so it might be able to see play besides the above

[bronze turret]

Why did they buff the shit out of ass rogue then?

[clever delta]

Gotta learn the fatebound ass 😄

[vale pine]

assassiantion plays fatebound

which has inverse target scaling

soo

it falls off with more targets

[vale pine]

i mean same reason they did in the other seasons besides it performing equal to other specs ^^

but basically subtlety will posisbly see play due to the lower trade offs and damage amps on encounters

[bronze turret]

So it’s pure st spec

[vale pine]

assasisantion, kinda in raiding

[clever delta]

Just buff sub again than

[bronze turret]

Makes sense, i wish i had time to play the game but lifes hectic

[vale pine]

you missed season 2

subtlety was for most of the seaosn the least played/worse performing spec in the game (even below aug on wcl)

the classic

but hey, we got palyed first 2-3 weeks of the raid and in wfr

justifies this

[chrome palm]

accidently buffed twice and dev was somehow better still

[vale pine]

well we got the buffs very late and it was accidentally twice

we would have slightly outperformed the other rogue specs with the buff

the revert just was to make sure sub stays low player base

[chrome palm]

i am very curious to see how sub does in the raid

the pure st output seems like it will still be somewhat low

[vale pine]

(i say this because buffs in the last 2 xpacs always put specs slightly ahead of others to give more incentive to switch, you saw this multiple times ona ssassination for example)

[vale pine]

think it will be fine

but blizz can always buff

[hollow spear]

Let's see what they do after rwf

I don't expect tuning for us when the raid hits. They'll probably only tune the clear outliers.

Are there up to date fatebound sims?

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[nova cairn]

We’re basically going to play Assa

For every boss

[lilac stag]

I tried to warn you

[nova cairn]

It’s joever

[lilac stag]

[sacred yarrow]

[violet palm]

Wouldn’t there be last week patch just before raid?

[hazy breach]

Theres gonna be one right before raid

And a couple of weeks after raid

[lilac stag]

The post RWF stuff usually dictates power for the majority of us

I honestly don’t recall. Was there tuning pass last time all levels released together.

[vale pine]

Will rerun Sims after eating probably but iirc there are still some apl improvements left so likely will be 2 or 3% too low

[hollow spear]

Depends on the current state of apl. If fatebound still goes for 120s, it might be more.

[vale pine]

It is a lot to check so ye

Probably not perfect yet

[clever delta]

Good for them

They will know pain of 90s trinkets

[hollow spear]

Without any manual APL overrides, it still plays it as 120 seconds

5.125m

[steel zinc]

and only 2p

4p isnt even in the assa sim

[hollow spear]

True, trying to manually insert the ones from sub

Good news is that there's even less friction between sub and sin then

[sand flax]

hey @vale pine I've checked the sims you've shared : https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ngJWW8Rqyx6sVr5viWNtDw and I have a question. Why on the first flag + shadowblades, the sims doesnt press shuriken storm (so 5-6 stacks of dance macabre) but on the second ramp Flag + SB, the sim DOES press shuriken storm (then get 7stacks of dance macabre)

Is there any scenario when we press shuriken storm in ST during our dance ramp ?

[hollow spear]

If their raid spec is fatebound, we still want a 90 second trinket

[hollow spear]

The reason it presses storm is to save an unseen blade proc, not danse macabre

[steel zinc]

its all about tierset

you storm in cds to not have the 2nd coup consume your disorienting strikes stacks

also depends on proccs

if you procc then you can just press coup b2b

[sand flax]

we do all we can to send our 2 coup de grâce during dance then ?

[little sleet]

where can i find some PTR talent trees for sub for m +

[steel zinc]

just play W/e their are a lots of builds you can play

just search m+

all play tea

[little sleet]

ok but what are the talents

[steel zinc]

you just send coups anyways you dont hold once you used it

[little sleet]

because i dont know them from the top of my head

[steel zinc]

that depends what damage profile you want

[little sleet]

aoe

ig

aoe and cleave if that exists

[steel zinc]

just aoe no st just full send big overall?

let me send it sec

This is the most balanced and what most rogues. Kush, Casual play on stream.

The most AOE is sec

No Shadowcraft full send

since you have so much cdr from the tierset

[little sleet]

can you send the import also ?

[steel zinc]

ptr bugs out

just use screenshots

[little sleet]

yeye its ok

got them already

tyvm

[steel zinc]

np

[tribal blade]

pretty cool sub is gonna be able to actually have different talent loadouts now

instead of 1

[steel zinc]

now sin just has one for m+

[tribal blade]

haha true

the sin build is now the old one from S1

p much

[sand flax]

@steel zinc is there any data how many % dmg we gain when a target has FW ?

[tribal blade]

30% more BP dmg to that one mob

so it's a lot

[steel zinc]

I would reommend reading the talents. No meme that actaully helped me understand it better

[tribal blade]

30% more evis too

but you're pretty much guaranteed to have FW on your target in ST

[sand flax]

But the armor reduction, is there any data ?

[tribal blade]

for nimble i can't remember the exact number

@hazy breach knows if he's around

[vestal escarp]

armor on npc is about 30% phys reduction

fw is 30% of that 30% bypassed

[sand flax]

Thanks guys @steel zinc @vestal escarp @tribal blade

[tribal blade]

@steel zinc so what're the main rotational differences playing no shadowcraft build

i just want to make sure, it's been a while since we've played w/o it

[vestal escarp]

gun in your mouth

[tribal blade]

LOL

true on ST

[steel zinc]

you use storm to spread rupture pre cds, when the pull is being gathered.

Thats what the robot does

[tribal blade]

mm ok

[steel zinc]

and the rest is pretty standard

[tribal blade]

and then you can send dry dances too

w/o symbols

[fathom adder]

how do you handle rupture with the shadowcraft one without replicating shadows in aoe?

[steel zinc]

the build has rs

so idk

[tribal blade]

if you play no RS build you wouldn't really spread rupture at all

except on important mobs

that need to die faster

[steel zinc]

yeah

[fathom adder]

ah okay, got one posted the other day and it didnt have it

ty

[steel zinc]

but also imo kinda troll to play without it. Rupture is the best spell

all g

[tribal blade]

it's also very strong on small target cleave

like 2-4 targets

makes sub much better

[hollow spear]

I kinda feel like these dungeon slice optimisations are super useless

[tribal blade]

also look at the tooltip for how much dmg rupture does vs every other spell 😉

[alpine wraith]

this is kinda what i recommend

but you can also play without tornado

as we get more gear that flat crit is very good

[tribal blade]

what's the sim difference between VT and nado

hopefully not much

[alpine wraith]

depends how good you are at using the cdr and ruptures

[tribal blade]

ahh gotcha

[alpine wraith]

and the kind of pulls you would go into

like if you want to do quad dances tornado is very good

or if you have a double then tornado into another

or if you begin a pull with only 1 dance stack and not much of next

and can tornado ruptures

into double dances

[fathom adder]

this is the shadowcraft one?

[alpine wraith]

kinda all rounder

wont have best st because no DD and inev

but also decent aoe/cleave with tornado and replicating

[tribal blade]

i think RS is mandatory

[alpine wraith]

same

[tribal blade]

unless you're doing pretty low keys

then it's probably w/e

[alpine wraith]

even on low keys rupture is still 10%

unless you are inting

[tribal blade]

yeah rupture does a lot

[alpine wraith]

it gets dinamically buffed too

[tribal blade]

the mobs don't need to live that long for it to be strong

[alpine wraith]

i mean it was already the most dcp

and you double it

[tribal blade]

during S2 of DF that was an optimization i figured out while pushing title

when we were playing DB

was being super aggressive with rupture spreading at the start of pulls

and doing what felt like too much spreading

but big pay off

[clever delta]

Tornado is fake

[alpine wraith]

yea it does get buffed by like 40-60% over the course of dance

tornado is not fake but annoying and skill issue

[clever delta]

They were trying out nado and they both specced off it

[terse ruin]

guys in 11.2, how much target for BP ? And how much with Flawless form active ? 🙂

[alpine wraith]

makes sense why play it

[tribal blade]

well i think nado a lot less annoying to play with vigor talented

with 100 energy it felt like dogshit

[alpine wraith]

but gotta let people know what is possible the most dmg then they can choose

[steel zinc]

you have flawless up always nearly or you screwed up your rotation in aoe.

3 during blades you bp 5 + if fw is up

also bp is not always the way evis is better on bigger prio targets

but thats comp depended

[alpine wraith]

we dont really stab for flawless anymore outside cds

[clever delta]

Rotten is better than nado

[steel zinc]

gameplay wise yes. Numbers say sth different. But cba nado

[steel zinc]

in dance you do 😄

[clever delta]

What numbers

[steel zinc]

ds sim

[clever delta]

Sims smile

[alpine wraith]

with my vers you cant go rotten but there are some that do

and it is fine

[clever delta]

Who cares about sims

[alpine wraith]

in the end you can try many of them and see which ones are better

you can only recommend

they all have cons and pros anyway

same reason i played ER and did fine

[terse ruin]

3 target BP when blades active ?

[alpine wraith]

it simmed almost the same was more annoying but was cool

[alpine wraith]

yes if FW up

[terse ruin]

but when we up Coup if we do nearly always BP ?

[alpine wraith]

you always coup if it is up

[clever delta]

You coup always

[terse ruin]

but Coup proc only with evis no ?

[alpine wraith]

actually might do a big reminder so people dont get the 4p surprise

outside dances

you need to build sht and/or energy

before using first coup

otherwise you may not be able to use the second one

[tribal blade]

is the energy you get back from casting the first coup not enough for 1 backstab and coup?

[clever delta]

But how many backstabs you need to build second

[tribal blade]

if you're drained on energy that is

[tribal blade]

iirc eleem said it's fine to do on 1 CP

but not sure

[clever delta]

Yeah

It is

Just send before it expire

[alpine wraith]

it is to not waste possible resets on unseens too

[terse ruin]

There's just one thing I don't understand: how can you proc Coup when we use BP almost all the time and it only procs on 4 ST or stab?

[alpine wraith]

the longer you take the more rng thousand cuts can cuck you

[tribal blade]

MMM ok

[alpine wraith]

imagine you have to stab 3 times and proc 2 unseens between coups

and they double hit

AAAAAaaaAAAAAAAaaAAAaA

[tribal blade]

yeah this tier set has so much waste potential it's nuts

[clever delta]

Does it matter outside dance tho

[alpine wraith]

well it builds towards next coup

[clever delta]

You are doing potato dmg anyway

[alpine wraith]

and more cdr for sec techs

[rapid forum]

What guide would you guys recommend to read up on? Last time I played sub was fated SL and early DF. Are there big gameplay/build changes for S3? Trickster stays locked I assume

[alpine wraith]

yea trickster is the play

[clever delta]

If you are not holding the coup the next cds are probably far away

[alpine wraith]

lilely fuu me and others will update the guides soon

[rapid forum]

Sounds good

[alpine wraith]

doing some tests getting the double coup into dance that has double coup can be juicy

but as always rng rng

[clever delta]

Heh

[alpine wraith]

you get like 20+ flawless

[terse ruin]

There's just one thing I don't understand: how can you proc Coup when we use BP almost all the time and it only procs on 4 ST or stab? Someone can explain to me ?

[alpine wraith]

coup procs from strikes

[vale pine]

wowhead guides come monday probably, but gameplay does not change before tier set

[alpine wraith]

and you get lots of dance cdr

[clever delta]

It's still rng

You gotta pray to 2set gods

[alpine wraith]

and to thousand cuts gods

[vale pine]

so "things as usual"

[clever delta]

Ikd I love the new tier set

[vale pine]

for the first week

[alpine wraith]

tbh gameplay does not change that much but lots of things you can kinda go aha!

[clever delta]

I think new tier set is like fresh air for spec

[rapid forum]

It's just m0 and delves anyways, but wanna warm up basics for the week after when things start to matter more

[clever delta]

Can't wait to not hold tier set stacks as I did whole s2

[rapid forum]

Have been otp ing law pretty much

[alpine wraith]

cant wait to just send sec tech on cd

and getting it back before cds

like god intended

[clever delta]

There is extra sectech now?

In-between last dance and next cds?

[tribal blade]

you didn't enjoy watching all your stacks fade away randomly right before cds

[rapid forum]

Does sub still press an ugly backstab/shuriken in dance for danse? I remember that being a thing at some point

[alpine wraith]

we do both kinda yes

[rapid forum]

[alpine wraith]

but storm only on cds

[clever delta]

But i enjoyed building up to 4 stacks in opener 😄

[alpine wraith]

between coups

[flint parrot]

we are doomed

[alpine wraith]

get to 6 stacks first 2 dances do 1 evis before third dance

all stocks gone

not going to edit that one

[clever delta]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

BOGGED

[clever delta]

Can't fucking wait

To leave this in pasg

Past

[alpine wraith]

will love getting a strong trinket week 1 anyway

[terse ruin]

And if FW isn't up, how much target we BP ? 7+ ?

[tribal blade]

yeah i immediately did not like the gamba tier set

[alpine wraith]

while everyone farms priory

i mean tier set was fine before the omeganerf

because you played around it

but if you dont play around it

it just seems like it punishes you for bad rng

[tribal blade]

i'm just not a fan of rng at all

[alpine wraith]

like look at this kid resetting stacks before cds

[tribal blade]

i like things to be in my hands

[rapid forum]

That with latest updates?

[alpine wraith]

also yday while filming the new opener i had DISASTROUS 2p rng

[tribal blade]

i dunno how MM hunters survive lol

[alpine wraith]

for like 4 straight tries

[clever delta]

Oh shit nothing outlaw season

[alpine wraith]

it is always outlaw season

for someone

somewhere

[rapid forum]

i wish

[tribal blade]

if that's simmed dps

[rapid forum]

i would spam it again 24/7

[tribal blade]

in before outlaw sims are fake

[rapid forum]

but law always sims high because its great optimized

and flat damage profile gonna suck on the raid

couple amps

[alpine wraith]

well problem with outlaw is most of the time raid mechanics

[tribal blade]

not just that, but you can't have 100% uptime

[lilac stag]

Fuu why aren’t sub sims great? It’s optimized

[alpine wraith]

it did always do well on bosses that were full st no downtime

[tribal blade]

and outlaw seriously suffers with downtime

[alpine wraith]

like stix no balls

[rapid forum]

yeye we dont like forced downtime

[alpine wraith]

and ky veza

[clever delta]

Good i geared my warlock

[rapid forum]

if not downtime law pumps

[clever delta]

I'm so ready for next season

[rapid forum]

prob smoke other speccs

and doesnt matter if pure st or cleave

but, idk, when fights are still being figured out/sometimes hectic outlaw too unreliable, just hurts too much if you loose good rolls or adr

and if fights forces you to afk anyway 🤷‍♂️

[tribal blade]

i have a feeling that sub is gonna feel big stinky with bad tier rng though

[alpine wraith]

well not really

[rapid forum]

im looking forward to progging on sub, think it will be great

[alpine wraith]

but you will feel the highs while you plauy

then look at top logs

and cry

[tribal blade]

haha trueee

[alpine wraith]

same as SL

[rapid forum]

man i miss sl tier

the quadruple shadowstrike looked so cool

[tribal blade]

that tier would honestly go super hard with sub's current tool kit

[alpine wraith]

would be nice but i hated it so much

[tribal blade]

yeah that was a super rng fiasco

[alpine wraith]

many people had fun

[steel zinc]

I expect fatebound assa to sim close to outlaw and be one of the best st specs in the game

[alpine wraith]

but i was on the low spectrum

[tribal blade]

because if you got good rng you would get more rng and it would feed on itself

get bad rng it just fed into less and less rng

[bold gate]

Why do we send shadow dance-> evis -> symbols of death -> evis -> builder -> sectec

Why not do shadow -> symbols -> sectec with cold blood right away?

[lilac stag]

Sectech on CD

[tribal blade]

that's the second dance in cds when sectec isn't ready yet

[lilac stag]

Use the evis to reduce CDR

[alpine wraith]

for mental math

you can use evis to reduce 10 secs with supercharger

[tribal blade]

you're using dance back to back there so that you can fit both dances in blades

[alpine wraith]

or coup to reduce 15 secs

[vale pine]

we can start dance with high combo points, thats why

[bold gate]

Hmmm, I thought I do my second dance when sectec is less than 10 seconds

[vale pine]

so we dance again and secret will be up later

[tribal blade]

press dance immediately as soon as 1st one ends

and then watch your sectec cd

[bold gate]

Oh… well that makes sense

[vale pine]

^ during 90 sec cooldowns you dance back to back pmuch

2 times

[tribal blade]

fitting both dances into blades is big

[vale pine]

(so dance-dance)

[bold gate]

Ty ty

So basically you dance and when the first is down you second dance right away and

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

[bold gate]

Make sure sectec is used with cold blood for giga dmg

[grand wyvern]

if you use the bs macro how do you dance back to back without gap and without throwing random backstabs?

[tribal blade]

make sure you have dance on a seperate bind

[vale pine]

the backstab macro works like this

first key press - dance
second key press - backstab

so you can control when it uses backstab

it does never use it together

so you need 2 presses w/e

if you want backstab

[grand wyvern]

ok but when i have to do the second dance in CDs i am used to spamming dance button to queue the dance up, is that wrong?

[vale pine]

it should not matter much if you delay your 2nd dance minimal

with the new tier set

[grand wyvern]

ok thanks

[vale pine]

current tier set is very sensitive

[bold gate]

Is the first global after dance a backstab or symbols? Or doesn’t matter if I do dance -symbols -stab / dance -stab-symbols?

[vale pine]

just make sure to dance again still within the next 2-3 gcds

[tribal blade]

my god that's right

you can slightly delay dance now between the 2

and not get cucked

rejoice

[twin surge]

oh yes.. that will be such a relief..

[bold gate]

What does that mean? Sorry I’m quite new

[tribal blade]

right now the big danger is if you use evis/bp outside of dance you can drop all your tier stacks

so if you delayed your 2nd dance in cds and pressed evis outside of dance, you could lose ALL your stacks

and then you go into your 2nd super juiced dance much weaker

next season that danger will be gone with the new tier set

[wary plover]

are sims updated for all 3 spec?

[vale pine]

currently updating them

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bold gate]

Tyvm

[vale pine]

but assassination needs a bit more work likely

had a lot of recent change which might end in apl optimizaions

[lilac stag]

Whispyr holding apl hostage until Monday night.

[vale pine]

^^

is he?

i dm'd him earlier for his wip version

[lilac stag]

pretty sure he said he wasn’t releasing until Monday.

[vale pine]

we will see later when he wakes up ^^

[lilac stag]

Maybe misread

[vale pine]

ahh well

unforch

[lilac stag]

At this point I think the safe assumption is FB assa going to be highest sim. 2 or 130 likely biggest question.

how that translates to raiding

[vale pine]

possible

it might not be

who knows

[nova cairn]

You think it’s gonna be an Assa tier tho

With how bosses are

[vale pine]

i don't know

[hazy breach]

Probably still 2 min, Ive heard ww is doing 2 min by delaying too

[chrome palm]

Fuu do you have the apl lines for forcing eviscerate before rupture in opener

[hazy breach]

In standard sims

(aka +-5 min with BL on pull)

[vale pine]

this was highest last time i checked

idk if apl updates change it

[lilac stag]

In the end it’s a 99% chance it’s always an assa tier.

[vale pine]

need to check if 4p is worth it now

[nova cairn]

Would the apl effect the cold blood thingy

[lilac stag]

MA goes bye bye I think.

[vale pine]

possible

[plush roost]

1/2 vv

What a time to be alive

[violet palm]

Why don’t we backstab during 2nd dance?

[vale pine]

it possibly changes

[plush roost]

MA being a thing while youre vanishing on your second cb envenom for 2x edge case is quite a counter intuitive thing

[vale pine]

whispyr is brewing

[vale pine]

we do

[plush roost]

Hey brew is our thing

Hehe

[nova cairn]

If you’re talking about wowhead thing

It’s just a lil error

[hazy breach]

Probably wont get ma if you do 90s if i had to guess

[nova cairn]

1st build in dance is always BS

[violet palm]

Ye, the picture. Was confused for a second

[plush roost]

Im thinking drop ig and ma, go 2x vv and ib/spatter if i had to guess

[hollow spear]

Is that the next stage after cooking?

[vale pine]

yes

well its combined

he is cooking and brewing at the same time

creating the perfect meal

[plush roost]

Fatebound is weird af cause you can have chains of blindside envenom blindside envenom with how the extra seal fate cp interacts

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/brewing-cases-call-team-on-call-gif-2302233487445126217

[hollow spear]

warlocks in shambles

[vale pine]

^ leaked footage

[nova cairn]

“Sleeping”

[plush roost]

I always knew whispyr was a cat

[nova cairn]

Bro is cookin up a storm

[plush roost]

If u put white monster zero in the cauldron

Hmmmm

[vale pine]

you always get the best ideas while sleeping

[nova cairn]

Very true

I’m excited to see what we play now for new season

Would be cool to mix it up on each boss

Rather than just a straight sub/assa tier

[hollow spear]

I don't mind that

Better than a spec being miles ahead

[nova cairn]

It’s never a straight outlaw tier

[hollow spear]

Outlaw might be real good on the DH fight

But as always you have the weapon problem

[toxic oracle]

it hasn't been straight assa/subtlety tier for a while now has it?

[hollow spear]

wdym

sub has been the go to bleeding edge progression spec

[vale pine]

the entire xpac was dominated by assassiantion, no?

subtlety ofc good during early progress

but if you look over the entire tier it was very one sided

[lilac stag]

which no one cares about, maybe guy.

[nova cairn]

The outlaw community

[lilac stag]

wake me up after rwf tuning

[nova cairn]

[hollow spear]

Well, I enjoy watching rwf and if sub is represented I like it even more

[toxic oracle]

I'm just thinking about what was played on prog

[hollow spear]

depends on what your definition of "prog" is

[vale pine]

sub was at one point during this patch

the last dps in the wcl statistic

it is true, that subtlety saw play during first few weeks of the patch