subtlety

[lilac stag]

wanting to play outlaw in sub channel.

[lucid jackal]

It is, but again multiple FB talents actively reduce your ST when multiple targets are introduced

[lilac stag]

I’m 100% down for rogue to top boss dmg without funnel

[lucid jackal]

If FB is "5% better on pure ST"
When you add adds to the fight, its not 5% better anymore

It might be like, 2% better

[fleet wharf]

Are there fights where we'll have to hop off of sub in the next tier? I vaguely remember someone saying we might want to play assa for the DH council fight?

[lucid jackal]

Maybe 3% better

and this is the default ST setup this tier in the fuu sheet btw, so u probably? drop VV for caustic, which is probably another what, 2%?

[chrome palm]

assa on dh fight does not sound fun

[void ocean]

are there any raid testing streams inc? by rogues preferably

[lucid jackal]

so it's not actually 5% better yk

[violet palm]

Rogues job this tier is to stack atrophy

[fleet wharf]

you need to find 2 rogues in one guild first. task level: impossible

[chrome palm]

vv cleave from caustic isnt bad though

[lucid jackal]

Okay well tell me what talent u drop from the screenshot I posted then if not VV

[steel zinc]

I think more important on pure st fights where sometimes adds spawn sub can do 90% of its "aoe" or cleave in full st. Thats the cook. Nothing weird just blast

[knotty depot]

Little optimisation question, when I have Coup de Grace up + SecTec and about to enter a dance window. What do I go for first ?

[lucid jackal]

cuz I legit dont know

[lilac stag]

Stacking atrophy and oh wait, it’s not working on 80% of the dmg sources. (Joke)

[chrome palm]

maybe ma if you desync vanish

[lucid jackal]

that sounds worse but the point still stands either way

Ur dropping a ST talent, to gain caustic

[steel zinc]

might aswell play sub or outlaw. Like that fight as sin looks hella bad. Maybe if progging mythic might have enough time to get the Mark timings down

[lucid jackal]

Which lowers ur ST output

[leaden prairie]

Max talked about it on stream yesterday

If you think that's staying

Kekw

[lucid jackal]

If the hype around FB Sin is real, probably the silkworm boss (2nd boss so it lowkey doesnt matter) and then fractilis

[hollow spear]

They must have known that for longer, no?

[fleet wharf]

depends if fazed is up. if it is, you can send coup first, if not, go sec tech into coup

[leaden prairie]

Max or blizzard devs

[lucid jackal]

Other than that, maybe the dragon boss for execute damage, but probably not imo, and then maybe the last boss but legit nobody knows

[leaden prairie]

Cause I doubt blizzard devs knew since they fixed once but it reappeared

And they are all clu less

[chrome palm]

silk worm is also damage amp in p2, when there are no more adds spawning

but also

[lucid jackal]

Oh right that boss has the orbs u have to target swap to

Yeah so probably not a sin fight

[lilac stag]

I think Whispyr said execute FB burst was 14-15 milli in sims, 12-13 normal windows.

[lucid jackal]

Idk, I think sin is giga cope next tier

thats my soul read

[chrome palm]

idk pure st damage amp

and holding prism could be ok but also

most people wont have prism on fatebound here

[lucid jackal]

Just get prism

[chrome palm]

for prog

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/american-psycho-willem-dafoe-duh-duhh-obviously-gif-16794513

[random mason]

'hey guys i wanna play assa so I'll need BOTH forge and prism please thank you '

[lilac stag]

assa can embrace the pvp trinket

watches channel melt at mention of pvp

[chrome palm]

i dont think anyone was speculating assa being strong because of cleave on cauldron

[hollow spear]

If they go 90s they can't embrace it

[lilac stag]

Forge is going to be my loot council nightmare fuel

[chrome palm]

like its just 2nd boss its gonna fall over

[lilac stag]

They can. We did to get rid of transmitter when HoC was not purchasable.

[fleet wharf]

we don't relaly need it though do we?

[lilac stag]

Sub no

Every other spec

Yes

[fleet wharf]

cool, so sounds like officers' problem lmao

[chrome palm]

ww holding 90s for FORGE*****

[hollow spear]

Huh

[chrome palm]

:^)

[hollow spear]

Ah now I got it

[lilac stag]

[hollow spear]

Prism sims worse even though you don't need to hold?

[chrome palm]

this is their punishment for being the better 1:30 melee burst spec in 11.1

curse of zul bitch

[lilac stag]

prism has no real opening value, where lust happens

just be like sub and get no value from lust

prism giga when people realize they’re holding lust on the important bosses

mages and silken 2.0

[chrome palm]

only that 2min classes cant hold it

[lilac stag]

assuming they’re not holding two mins for the 3 min burst / amp / lust

you can still move 2 mins around

[hollow spear]

I can totally see prism not dropping for three weeks straight

[chrome palm]

it might be a queen situation

there are other things to kill besides the amp

[lilac stag]

sure

It’s all just speculation.

we can then all watch a week of splits

To hear best bosses ever, followed in two weeks these bosses are all shit.

I just hope it’s a fun raid.

[chrome palm]

(so far) stix bunkjunker isnt a boss in the new raid, so its got that going for it

[fleet wharf]

it looks pretty dope, the mechanics looked fun enough? is there any legit reason to doom over the new tier?

[chrome palm]

since your class color is yellow, that means you should be dooming

[lilac stag]

personally preferences / what is fun

[chrome palm]

or if the day ends in y either/or

[lilac stag]

I enjoyed undernine

[chrome palm]

i think rogue might be p good in m+

raid tuning is whatever

[short radish]

why are people saying rogue is good in m+ now

im OOTL

[fleet wharf]

Honestly I'm glad shindig put rogue specs pretty high on the M+ tier list

[chrome palm]

because it does a lot of damage

[short radish]

oh cool

[lilac stag]

The dmg from singular focus if I recall seems to be excessively high.

[chrome palm]

sub will be blasting streets and dawny b

[short radish]

assi still > sub

[fleet wharf]

the plebs will blindly follow this tier list and we are high on it

[short radish]

i assume this is the max tier list. the most definitive tier list that is 100% accurate

[chrome palm]

if you rng the damage amp on 2nd boss streets it is mega crank time

[fleet wharf]

yupp

I can't believe MM put themselves that low lmao

[chrome palm]

shadow s mm c

hmm

[short radish]

why cant they make fatebound the m+ spec

then i wouldnt hate assi as much

[fleet wharf]

it might be playable depending on how KB fix goes

[chrome palm]

the throughput honestly isnt the worst thing but negative funnel is a rough sell

being a 1:30 is really cool (if you dont reset your cdr)

honestly the worst part about fatebound assa in keys

will be having to explain yet more rogue dogshit to your tank to NOT pull onto boss

after begging them to do it the entire last 2 seasons

[lilac stag]

It was pumping. cb + kb was poppin off

[stoic reef]

Guys is there any rotation change

[fleet wharf]

Guides should be coming out over or after weekend. I think the only major change is you storm between Coup usage while in CD

[knotty depot]

Thanks !

[stoic reef]

Ty

[knotty depot]

Why will we storm ?

[fleet wharf]

to not waste unseen blade charges

[lilac stag]

To not lose UB stacks

[chrome palm]

high change of proccing UB inside of your cds, which is wasted between coup because you cant build escalating blade between coups. storm doesnt proc coup

[lilac stag]

peek gameplay

[knotty depot]

I am missing something there I think in my understanding. Why don't we coup, get the UB use afterwards to rebuild towards another coup in CDs?

[fleet wharf]

it's in Messerknecht's reply about escalating blade

but basically, if you have 4 EB charge, you get coup, but with the implementation of the tier set, you can't gain new charges before the 2nd coup charge gets used

[lucid jackal]

Hes talking about next tier

Where the tier set is "After coup, you can coup again within 5 seconds"

So we press storm in between these coups, rather than backstab, to not waste UB procs

[lilac stag]

if you’re feeling spicy you could shuriken toss instead of storm

[hollow spear]

I think not being able to track ub is thematic, it's called unseen for a reason

[knotty depot]

Ahhhhh I understand now

I didn't have the tier set in mind so now I get the in-between Coup

Thanks lads

[lucid jackal]

This is next tiers tier set

Current one doesnt do that obviously

Unsure if ur q is this tier or next

[knotty depot]

No next

I'm catching up on assa and sub things atm since I'm taking my rogue into Mythic next season

[lucid jackal]

yer

[maiden oar]

with new tier set does the rule where you want to coup before sectech if you have both going into a non flag dance change

[hazy breach]

Nop

[maiden oar]

do i want to delay symbols to supercharge sectech or is supercharging both coups a ok

[hazy breach]

You want to supercharge sectech

But wait, you sectech before coup

Not the other way around

[maiden oar]

oh ok

i thought for dances outside of flag in current patch you couped first

maybe ive been a noob then

[vale pine]

you want flawless form stacks

so coup first

[maiden oar]

yeah

with new tier set do you have time to go coup build sectech build coup

or do you always sectech first because the 4s is too tight (idk when it counts down from) and might force you to finish at lower cp and you want supercharge on sectech

or is there a weird interaction where 2nd coup doesnt consume supercharger and it doesnt matter

[cerulean beacon]

Are we playin the same talents for s3 as for s2? I saw some glimpses of shuriken tornado and got scared

[hollow spear]

Outside of blades, you could go dance coup stab symbols coup strike sectec?

Or is that suboptimal?

[brisk onyx]

you can use the same build with s2

[fair anchor]

what's the big reason that enables DB/no shadowcraft builds in S3 ? Mostly new tier set gives us enough CDR to not care about shadowcraft ?

[fleet wharf]

While we're on the topic of rotations for the next tier, what's the rule for coup usage out of cds?

[hazy breach]

In s2 there was no difference

Like it simmed the same, so why make it more complicated

Getting sectech on cd is good so you can use more of the cdr

[hollow spear]

Yeah I was talking specifically about s3

With how flexible dances are, it could be an option

If there's adds to cleave at timers, it's obviously less flexible

[hazy breach]

Havent double checked but generally sim hates anything that wastes sectech cdr

And id think the difference would be minor anyway

[maiden oar]

ok thanks

[hazy breach]

On cd

[maiden oar]

was just curious what to supercharge with new s3 set

[hollow spear]

Ig it's pretty minor, but I envisioned using dance at around 20 seconds of sectec cd and then doing the rotation I mentioned

But probably too convoluted to actually be a thing

[fleet wharf]

sec tech because coup damage scales linearly, you don't need to supercharge them

[hollow spear]

If you come across that situation I'd wager a guess it could be optimal to use that sequence

[maiden oar]

oh yeah in my head it was more supercharge sectech first and first coup or second coup and sectech

rather than first 2 coups and not sectech

[runic trail]

Reaching levels of sandbagging thought never possible before

[maiden oar]

but glad to know to sectech first

[hazy breach]

I mean tbf they were also giga nerfed

[fleet wharf]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/775859970347761724/1401123836988100608/image.png?ex=688f21c2&is=688dd042&hm=ba5756414d5ec7846155d909adb7c51d74d92080b41776effc29ca296f6033fb&

[hazy breach]

Maybe they should be one tier higher, but its absolutely not the monster it was on early ptr

[tribal blade]

it's honestly why you pray to not be an OP spec during PTR

[runic trail]

I didn't look at the numbers, I just saw hunters taking an L and life was okay

Fuck hunters.

[tribal blade]

see what happened to sub this season

that's why

[runic trail]

Just in general I don't care where they stand in the meta

[maiden oar]

isnt transmitter / tier set being nerfed and base spec buffed also why

since we looked insane in preseason

[tribal blade]

yeah it's both those things

[maiden oar]

probably safe since 4pc is strong and prism is hard to get in preseason

ah ok

[tribal blade]

basically usually the best spot to be in is honestly underperforming on ptr

[fleet wharf]

unless you are demo, i guess

[tribal blade]

so then blizz compensation buffs you up 🙂

and nerfs the overperformers (usually)

there's been a few times when sub has looked really good on ptr and then blizz swoops in and dashes it all

one time was sepulcher ptr

our tier set was REALLY good on that ptr

and then it got gutted

and became an rng fiasco

[maiden oar]

i see

im noob so i didnt know there was a pattern

[tribal blade]

it's not a hard pattern, but it tends to happen a lot

[maiden oar]

[hollow spear]

I expect tuning on reset when the raid hits and more tuning two or three weeks after, when rwf is over.

[tribal blade]

yeah there's gonna be a lot of tuning for sure

[hazy breach]

Then one single m+ tuning week 6-7

[fleet wharf]

Don't they usually do a tuning pass once HOF closes or thereaoubt?

[hazy breach]

And then call it a day, hang up your hat and dont do anything until midnight

[maiden oar]

i just hope i can clear the tier before sin gets buffed to be better than sub this time

[hollow spear]

Most of us won't even be all too deep into progress when big changes hit

[tribal blade]

they need to do more tuning for M+

[hollow spear]

Imo

[maiden oar]

took too long in 11.1 since first season raiding but this time its a possibility

[fleet wharf]

I dont think balancing is the issue for M+. It's more of a perception issue

[hazy breach]

Either that or make the game less alt friendly

[runic trail]

I wonder what the raid difficulty this tier is gonna be like, cos I think CE guilds are nearing 2500 now.

[tribal blade]

trueee

[runic trail]

Which is a big step up from season 1

[tribal blade]

well you say that until you get into a key with an udk this season

and they just top overall by a ridiculous amount

[runic trail]

No clue if this season was an outlier or if this'll be more indicative of balance going on.

[tribal blade]

esp prenerf

[fleet wharf]

Isn't alt friendliness a good thing though? I much prefer modern wow to older versions where you have to go through the whole storyline and weeks of rep farming to even start an alt

[maiden oar]

did sin get buffed to be stronger before hof closed this tier

[hazy breach]

Theyre kinda fine now, but thats after theyve been nerfed by like 10-15% for keys

[maiden oar]

or like how far in did that happen

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

prenerf udk was out of control

[hazy breach]

A bit before that ye, 6% or so buff around week 6

[lucid jackal]

sin got buffed like, week 3-5

[maiden oar]

saw people say sub is better for early prog and then sin gets buffed as if thats whst always happens

oh ok

[hazy breach]

It doesnt always happen no

Its happened the last two tiers though

[maiden oar]

theres a chance i get to do the tier on sub then wahoo

[lucid jackal]

Sub was still better in nerubar post buff

[runic trail]

Just do it as sub anyhow

Don't let your dreams be dreams

[maiden oar]

no im trialing for a hof guild i need to frag

[fleet wharf]

didn't it flip? It was good at start, then assa was good for most ppl, and towards the end sub got good again?

[maiden oar]

i will do whatever they want

[runic trail]

Oh, okay, fair.

I'm RFWL I can turn up half drunk and still be okay

[maiden oar]

i got first ce last season in a slower guild but i had the same mentality so i swapped to sin for prog and had less fun

[hazy breach]

Well they did buff sub (deathstalker) later on in the tier

[maiden oar]

so i need to save myself from myself

[lucid jackal]

Sub did more damage where it mattered on queen

[hazy breach]

But nobody played deathstalker on the last fights anyway

[fleet wharf]

yea, iirc I think they were like neck and neck, so there wasn't much reason to play sub unless you liked playing sub

[lucid jackal]

Sin being "higher damage" didnt make queen an easier fight

[maiden oar]

what made it easier? sorry if dumb question i didnt raid in nerubar

[hazy breach]

Simglazers will say it was an Assa angle

[maiden oar]

genuinely curious

[hazy breach]

Sub burst could solo a thing

[maiden oar]

oh ok

[hazy breach]

As most other people didnt have cds

[lucid jackal]

Sub could kill webs before they nerfed webs to have no HP, sin physically couldnt

Sub also helped solo platform 1

[maiden oar]

[lucid jackal]

which most specs didnt have damage for

[hazy breach]

And by solo i mean doing like 25% of the raids damage to those mobs

[maiden oar]

thanks

[hazy breach]

Unironically

[maiden oar]

sub is so cool...

[vale pine]

the thing people forget about sub was, we could cheese things often

[lucid jackal]

Sin doing like, 3% more st doesn't matter on a fight like queen in comparison

[vale pine]

e.g. as much as output matters on queen

[fleet wharf]

but muh e-peen

[vale pine]

having vanish for the root and cooldowns made the actual hard phase easy

[hazy breach]

Ye was just gonna say, 5% probably pushing it

[maiden oar]

i am so excited for sub tier

surely no preseason incident

[hazy breach]

I can foresee sub doing similar things this tier yet assa doing higher overall on some bosses

[hollow spear]

I'd rather be a parse andy that plays the correct spec for an encounter than a details andy that just wants to look good relative to others in their group ingame

[maiden oar]

i just want to contribute to winning

[hazy breach]

Like maybe we can solo the platform right before the damage amp on nexus King so we dont have anything for the amp but everyone else can have cds, or the opposite

[lucid jackal]

This is platform 1 damage in our guild for example

[shell willow]

cant we be both

[lucid jackal]

Which like

[maiden oar]

so i played sin on almost every boss and sub on rik this tier since i could explode barrels

[lucid jackal]

Matters less on week 18 of farm or whatever

[hazy breach]

I had 22% i think

[vestal escarp]

turns out sub was the only spec that could comfortably send cds on plat 1 if they didnt have to do port 1 o 2

[lucid jackal]

This was our prog kill for example

[unkempt vector]

is there anyone who is good with wa's?

[lucid jackal]

Same deal

[hollow spear]

Stop killing my damage amp cope 😠

[lucid jackal]

Sin doing on paper 2% more ST legit doesn't matter for the fight

Queen was never dying to 2% more ST damage

This was also when sub killed webs, because webs had HP lol

[fleet wharf]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

Which lol

[maiden oar]

how many guys do u have to hit with flag to get similar value to the dmg amp

[hexed sluice]

I was sitting at 1/4th the damage to barrels during rik prog before attendance died.

[lucid jackal]

Look at this damage btw to silken tombs

I literally do 0 damage to 2 sets

[maiden oar]

i see

[lucid jackal]

U had to assign 2+ people to 1shot the 3rd set of webs since u eventually ran out of ways to nullify the mechanic

so Sub could just solo them with fury warrior

[maiden oar]

sub is the coolest rogue spec i think

[paper siren]

bro

[lucid jackal]

I just play whatever spec is fun

Sub is the most fun rn so I play sub

[paper siren]

sub is the best

[wary plover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[maiden oar]

only iteration of rogue ive seen is this one patch so i agree

i did delves with shadowdust actually i thought that was kinda cool but

never any real content so idk how it was in raid

[hazy breach]

Well the overall dps is probably gonna be way higher if you get to pad on the adds anyway so

[hollow spear]

True, especially with the blades with nimble "fix"

[lucid jackal]

i swear ppl care so much about such minor bugs

[hazy breach]

But if that fight is well tuned

[lucid jackal]

I'm glad its fixed but like

[hazy breach]

We should need some cds on the platform too

Everybody cant just hold for amps

[lucid jackal]

u talkin dragon boss?

[hazy breach]

Nexus King ye

[lucid jackal]

ya

[hollow spear]

Wdym minor? If you identify as burst class and one of your major cooldowns doesn't interact with your aoe, then I don't think it's minor

If that was intentional sure, but it wasn't

[steel zinc]

Finality and shadowed finishers not working is not really a minor bug imo

[hazy breach]

Depends on if you consider gameplay applications or numerical

Those two have minor gameplay impact, but fairly big numerical impact

[vestal escarp]

Rog is a pure dps class tho

[lilac stag]

Just a minor glitch in the copilot design and coding.

[random mason]

They forgot to say 'no mistakes'

Can happen

[dry plank]

I think guy think only gameplay bugs matter and numerical easier to fix with flat% buff or bp buff

Which I agree at some point but not addressing these bugs lead to more and more bugs in future and require more %+- tuning

[steel zinc]

I argue shadowed finishers not working is gameplay. You will then not spec in st to finality and not use that talent.

If a talent is bugged where it is in theory good but its so bugged its bad to use you will not pick it = not picking a talent because its bugged = gameplay

[clever delta]

they keep buffing nimble just so we stfu about the bugs already, i bet they dont have time to fix it so atleast they buffed it to compensate..

fuck finality when we dont even play dark brew

[chrome palm]

hey fuck you i like dark brew

ijk 😇

[clever delta]

so play it

who cares

[brisk onyx]

does anyone remember we used to play DB because it had double dip?

[swift tinsel]

looks like who does indeed care

[clever delta]

that double dip was going unfixed for some time

[tepid trellis]

it still does (on some things)

[brisk onyx]

[clever delta]

but when they fixed it they buff something else to compensate too

dont remember what it was

[chrome palm]

dark brew popping off in blades ong

nimble at 3 with dark brew in blades ?!

[clever delta]

there are always some ppl who try to make DB work before next season

[formal pollen]

!fuu

[clever delta]

it was case for both s1 and s2

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[chrome palm]

it seemed to work very well for me

but it is probably more to do with sub just being better overall this season than last in m+

[astral axle]

back to back coup cdr go brr

[clever delta]

4set bonus feels nice

[chrome palm]

i do not like going into dance with 2 escalating blade

[clever delta]

i like when i can interact with my tier set bonus in positive way

[chrome palm]

and having to wait .6s to see if my 2pc procs

that is very annoying

[tepid trellis]

all they gotta do is buff dance cdr

so extra coups actually gives us the opportunity to dance twice between each set of major cds

[clever delta]

that would be lovels

lovely

[tepid trellis]

just gotta bump it back up to like 0.7-0.8

[clever delta]

would be more intuitive if we can just dance twice between every cds and not just every other

there will be one more tunning pass

i think we wont see rogue on that list 😄

[plush roost]

I think we'll see a nerf lowkey

[shrewd monolith]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[plush roost]

Just have that vibe with rogue tuning the day before raid

[upper narwhal]

Rogue seems well balanced for next patch imo, probably upper tier compared to most but not bonkers broken compared to a few classes

[hollow spear]

Based on where other classes sit, a nerf would surprise me

Not sure what fatebound sin is cooking, but sub is fine imo

[vestal escarp]

i what regard?

[chrome palm]

i think there are some real outliers that get nerfed before sub but who knows

they nerfed deathstalker tier despite being a meme spec, so anything could happen

[hollow spear]

I am praying for some warlock nerfs

[vestal escarp]

if they're gapping they're gonna come

[hollow spear]

Destro "found" some talents and sims almost 6.4 all of a sudden

[vestal escarp]

unsure if rog is gapping other classea anywhere, keys or raid

[astral axle]

yeah i was reviewing the patch notes and sin especially... >.>

ik the ds tier isn't exactly great but that's a lot of lines of buffs on top of the 12% overall

[chrome palm]

sub gapping in keys you better believe

we crank crazy style in dawnbreaker

[astral axle]

a lotta free tfd i bet

[chrome palm]

that, sub doing well in lower target counts, and sub being (generally) good at pure st in keys

sub is also very underrated in floodgate of all places

[maiden oar]

how come floodgate

[astral axle]

ya I was giving it a whirl on live but i was unsure how to approach big momma.

[chrome palm]

probably being a 1:30 helps

[tender frost]

Damage amps and prio mobs

[astral axle]

we save flag/blades for her amp?

[chrome palm]

nah

[astral axle]

or just send send

[chrome palm]

can just dance an amp and still get good value

[tender frost]

High keys you just send cause adds dying is also a pain

[fleet wharf]

I think you want to send blades a bit earier before amp goes up because the amp isn't long enough for us to fit the whole thing inside the duration

[maiden oar]

oh ok

[plush roost]

Devs arw scared of burst and we're entering the tier at a pretty strong baseline power level. People that raid next week in undermine are going to have the tuning already implemented which includes the aura buff sub gets. This happened in Nerubar and sub dominated the inbetween week and promptly was nerfed

[astral axle]

sick, i'll give that a shot. i was prolly thinking about it too hard

[hollow spear]

Sub gets a lot of power from tier set, don't thank that will be an issue

[chrome palm]

i heard assa was stronger with current tier in 11.2 than sub

[tender frost]

Sub also had the benefit back then of having access to transmitter which was almost as good as any trinket from LoU

[warm marlin]

other specs did get a lot bigger auras though

and our new tier is insane

[astral axle]

transmitter

[plush roost]

Yeah ofc, i just have a strange feeling that there will be a kneejerk nerf even if there shouldnt be

[tender frost]

Windwalker is going to go insane next week

[warm marlin]

Stuff like WW is walking into next tier with a garbage tier set to look forward to and a 13% aura

[hollow spear]

Stop predooming!

[warm marlin]

Lmfao

[astral axle]

once bitten twice shy

[clever delta]

would not be the first time

[vestal escarp]

i think you got that backwards, sub entered .1 palace that strong because of a 10% baseline compensation after a big nerf at um tier that impacted burst, which in the end scaled poorly all season.
Also subs burst rn seems in check, raid testing altough it was many weeks and rounds of tuning ago still had many monsters above sub

the actual monster coming in undermine next wedensday is sin

[plush roost]

Yeah sin is monkaS as well

[clever delta]

sin got lot off buffs

[vestal escarp]

but i still think it's in check

the sub hammer in .1 happened before patch dropped

[chrome palm]

sec tech my beloved

[plush roost]

Well i also thought sub would catch a stray a couple weeks ago with how strong in keys i was but then they buffed it by 5% so maybe i just have low expectarions

[clever delta]

tunning is aimed at raid

they will do more balancing with m+ in mind after race

[chrome palm]

HUH

they buffed sub aoe tho

and nerfed marks

[clever delta]

there is lot of cleave in raid

did you see it?

[vestal escarp]

first days of patch he meant

[chrome palm]

i dont think the marks nerf was aimed at raid

[vestal escarp]

ptr tuning aims at mostly everything

aoe esp when raid is closed and keys are open

first days/weeks of patch tuning is always aimed at raid

[runic kraken]

Is there any mechanical benefit to tracking Flawless Form stacks? Prepping my WAs hehe.

[steel zinc]

that is when the live team has no clue what the dev team did

The funny thing is they nerfed sectech and evis and like 2 months ago we got a 5% aura buff

preseason tuning is always wack until everyone has tier

[chrome palm]

yeah you can make this face when you see 30 stack flawless form
otherwise no

[runic kraken]

Dopamine benefit, got it.

[steel zinc]

Casual binds tee to sectech not dance is that a gain?

[hollow spear]

Don't think it matters

[vale pine]

just make sure to bind it in a way to not use tea on your blank secret casts

dance is the easiest bind

[clever delta]

i just have sectech keybind and sectech cb keybind 😄 cba pressing cb alone for some reason

[vale pine]

you can macro tea to the secret + cb bind for sure

[clever delta]

i think i should just learn cb natty tho, but too much muscle memory

[vale pine]

but likely need to use tea some times extra to not waste charges

[haughty mural]

That was comedy gold

[vale pine]

the funny thing is

[haughty mural]

Cb secret is fine

As long as you have a blank secret

[vale pine]

you can use modifiers

[clever delta]

i have 4 macro and shift 4 natty sectech

but since i have two keybinds would make more sense just having cb alone

[hollow spear]

You don't really use cb anywhere else

[clever delta]

hello fatebound assa

[hollow spear]

Can't you just macro that too?

I thought you could

[clever delta]

idk i did not play it ever

[haughty mural]

I’ve never specced fatebound for the whole expansion

[clever delta]

did not look at it

[haughty mural]

So I’m free

[hollow spear]

I think I had it macrod

[steel zinc]

is transmitter now again ahead for sub since hoc got a nerf?

[runic kraken]

Sub playing tea next tier?

[haughty mural]

Transmitter in s3

[steel zinc]

m+ yeah

[steel zinc]

idk have to sim it

have to restore my transmitter then

[runic kraken]

Cool.

[haughty mural]

I would have too

Deleted it last week finally

[steel zinc]

I remember HoC mythic being an upgrade but not by much

but got a 10% nerf

[runic kraken]

What do you drop for tea?

[steel zinc]

Cold Blood

[hazy breach]

For aoe you can drop cold blood for tea

[haughty mural]

(Had a stockholm moment with transmitter)

[steel zinc]

I mean it serious

hoC and 2nd best is transmitter for sub

@hazy breach can this be true or am I going full mental?

[hazy breach]

Idk even if it sims the same i wouldnt

[steel zinc]

ofc I wouldnt

I played lockenstock with transmitter

fun times

[clever delta]

you can get just the trinket from new dungeon, it surely beat transmitter

[steel zinc]

its dogshit

like actually

723 had less mastery then pre nerf hoc

you mean the eco dom one right?

[hazy breach]

Ye but passive agility

Halls trinket probably alright too

Not better than prism ofc

But for early season

[steel zinc]

yeah true just playing sub with double passive because it sims good would be weird

yeah this is all first 2-3 weeks talk

[clever delta]

how is prism for assa

[steel zinc]

Decent

[clever delta]

than i will just scream when prism drop 😄

[hazy breach]

Think prism us slept on

[clever delta]

i never fight for gear tho

[steel zinc]

fdk and we want prism

[hazy breach]

Yes if you bl on pull and the fight is 5 min its not great

[steel zinc]

rest its not bis

[hazy breach]

But for an 8 min fight where you bl at 5 min

It would be amazing for assa too

[clever delta]

so sub is prism prison? i really disslike having no trinket at opener

[hazy breach]

Forge is fine on shorter fights

[tawny plume]

Is that void trinket going to be bis with 10% stat nerf

Still seems very good

[clever delta]

yeah but im not getting forge

unless vualt

vault

[maiden oar]

does unholy not want it

[steel zinc]

I think maybe pvp trinket early on in the season is the play

[maiden oar]

thats good

[hazy breach]

Surely lily or cursed stone idol claps pvp trinket

[clever delta]

maybe they still buff that lil trinket from eco

who knows

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[clever delta]

is that st build in fuu sheet like final?

[tawny plume]

No

Thats not updated

[clever delta]

first dance and no 1/2 finality or rotten

[tawny plume]

Thats still pre buff

[steel zinc]

Gonna sim it now at hc itemlevel 704

[clever delta]

so what is current st buiild

[tawny plume]

The build will probs be the same just more dps on that sheet

[hazy breach]

Buffs should have no effect on talents for st

[clever delta]

so no rotten

or finality

[hazy breach]

Small difference between them but yes

[tawny plume]

Isnt finality bugged still?

[clever delta]

rotten is qol with adds tho

wow we drop RS too

thats quite a change

whats the kill time treshold for tfd vs wm now?

[hollow spear]

75 minutes

[clever delta]

not bad

[warm marlin]

Tfd gang on top

[hollow spear]

It's actually quite late

Especially with pre disorienting shenanigans

[clever delta]

its still tfd withnout trinket 😄

[hollow spear]

I personally will just never use wm

[steel zinc]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2TfpPb6BvAmo6E6X5KT1AF no not really (early season Week 1 Trinkets)

[clever delta]

i respect that

[warm marlin]

it’s also WM with trinkets with no primary or secondary at all

[steel zinc]

maybe wrong talents

[warm marlin]

I.e prism

[steel zinc]

lilly is so bad even a pvp trinket is better

[clever delta]

not playing RS will get some time to get use to agian

[hollow spear]

Why

On single target it didn't matter

And in m+ you can still run it

[clever delta]

most of fights have adds

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

you can still play full st

[vocal ledge]

how do you get the hero version of the pvp trinket?

[hollow spear]

There is none

But fully upgraded champ track is 704 ilvl

[vocal ledge]

aha, i see ty

[steel zinc]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qjBRb62LdAzqXZ9bScfcXW

These are all sims for week 1 and 2 trinkets you can get pretty easy at either heroic itemlevel 704 or 691 (which anyone can get)

[maiden oar]

pvp trinket is only obtainable when the raid releases right?

[steel zinc]

yeah

its pretty easy to get

but to upgrade it you need to get two trinket from +10

and lilly is total dogshit

[maiden oar]

yeah im going to probably do crates for it

[steel zinc]

idk if the sims have the buffs and nerfs of the trinkets in. Its latest sim

[maiden oar]

theres some psycho who tracks all the crates and gets like 40 guys to swarm them

if i find one of his parties its free

[tawny plume]

I assume the wrists and weapon will be our 2 crafted slots

[steel zinc]

You can if your degen get wrist with socket

pvp wrist

like all pvp gear is really good for sub

I played PvP S2 neck until like mugzee had versa mastery

[tawny plume]

I think i got both already crafted didnt play much rogue in s2 guild needed range so i swapped

[steel zinc]

most likely you will craft with the heroic crest wrist

[tawny plume]

Yeh then weapon first myth craft

[steel zinc]

yeah even if 2nd boss dropps our bis sub weapon you will play offhand crafted dagger as assa

[carmine portal]

is this fuckass build for PVP or smth

saw another sub rogue running around with it

[steel zinc]

you play deathstalker in pvp

[carmine portal]

This guy was just runnin around Dorn with it, didn't seem like a PVPer

[maiden oar]

if i recraft a crafted wrist with the socket from s2 vault on it does the socket stay

[steel zinc]

no

[maiden oar]

oh ok

[tepid trellis]

if u craft with season 3 spark no

[maiden oar]

that makes sense but also sucks

[lilac stag]

Craft a Neck. Craft pvp bracers. Socket PvP bracers

after daggie

[maiden oar]

im getting floodgate neck from vault week 2

[lilac stag]

watches embellished neck sim higher all season

[sand flax]

This looks tasty

[steel zinc]

please just please stop with this

sample size is so bad and most top players play sub way better then a casual

this is in indicator that kush and casual played rogue on ptr

and maybe some others (me maybe)

[lilac stag]

💥🚀

[fleet wharf]

dw guys MM is in D tier

[steel zinc]

also the lower the key the better mm and sub do

[vestal escarp]

That chart is weeks old by now lmao

[steel zinc]

so in a +12 you will smoke with both specs everything

[young crypt]

regardless of damage. which rogue spec is easiest to play in m+

[steel zinc]

its old and just stupid data

[sand flax]

Assassin might be above in higher key

[steel zinc]

assa

[fleet wharf]

assa and it's not even close

[young crypt]

ty fam

[steel zinc]

spread bleeds in the opener on one target and fan of knives env

your 95% of the top dmg

[young crypt]

love that

[steel zinc]

the lats 5% make the difference but for anything week 1 timing +10s thats it

And find a prio target to use deathmark

[sand flax]

@steel zinc any update on kingsbane fix ?

[vale pine]

the pvp trinket is probably fine week one

[steel zinc]

until prism its very good

[glacial basin]

is sub the best spec in ptr right now for m+?

[steel zinc]

idk. its not live on ptr

[steel zinc]

that highly depends on key level

[glacial basin]

for example 18s or 19s which one is the best

[steel zinc]

in premade assa

you have to play around assa like you do in rn with arcane

but sub has insane st

but if assa has funnel it does more

no funnel = tank dps on st

[bright sundial]

sup guys since the huge buffs is our envis/bp target count change or nah

[steel zinc]

3 in blades 5+ if fw up you bp

if you play rotten very easy to spread fw

[bright sundial]

i meant with the new blades doesnt trickster wana do envis more now cause of that fix?

[steel zinc]

no

[tepid trellis]

did eleem or fuu re-check it?

[steel zinc]

also you evis to prio target

[bright sundial]

ok gottcha only thing I had to ask was just wandering ty

[steel zinc]

tbf no so @bright sundial has a valid point but playing it on ptr and doing some latest sims its more worth to bp

[lilac stag]

Eleem was going to, but don’t know if he did

[tepid trellis]

he isnt home

he chillin

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/parksandrec-dgaf-chill-snl-swag-gif-4715632

[hazy breach]

Ich bin nicht zu Hause.

[lilac stag]

Ich mache Urlaub

[steel zinc]

Ur german?

I think fuu is german too

[tepid trellis]

no and no

[hazy breach]

No and no

[lilac stag]

Fuu is Austrian.

[steel zinc]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nkgy8mf3YNHp7k4JP9DQ4V here is a 3target sim. Does use BP. But no clue if it needs an apl change

[steel zinc]

thats like fake Germany

thats atleast what we say here in germany 😄

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/stupid-dumb-and-dumber-idiot-australia-austria-gif-16975559

[bright sundial]

tyty

[vale pine]

i can check shb either later today or tomorrow probably

it would require apl changes to test

once the implementation is updated

[steel zinc]

yeah I cant do apl stuff I just do copy pasta stuff

[vale pine]

there is no spell data change in the hotfix so its some scripted thing, which is a bit meh

[frank path]

is that m+ build? raid cleave would just take weaponmaster yea?

[lilac stag]

No WM

[vale pine]

^

[lilac stag]

WM Garbo

[vale pine]

tfd usually

[frank path]

so the one time +4 sec on dance is better overall in 5min raid cleave?

[lilac stag]

It’s better everywhere.

[vestal escarp]

Riad cleave is built in "hero" talents

[lilac stag]

Welcome to pushing storm in ST

[frank path]

i say raid because you arent getting a restealth and 6 sec out of combat

[vale pine]

yes

tfd becomes worse on long fights

but wm is not worth much

[frank path]

ok thats what i was wondering, ty

[steel zinc]

wm is S1 thing

[vale pine]

s2 too

[lilac stag]

Time off target and pressing storm makes WM even more shiet

[vale pine]

also for single target

wm and tfd is about the same

so its fine either way

[steel zinc]

screw wm shorter fights are fun

[frank path]

ok ty, my first tier going in as sub so i'm trying to catch up on everything

[steel zinc]

Fractilus in farm will be 3min or less fight

😄

[vale pine]

one thing i did not see people talk about

is how the 2 min on use trinket has a personal dps effect too

so you lose health

[fleet wharf]

that's forge right?

[steel zinc]

yeah 15%

[hazy breach]

Well its 15% of your HP, so its pretty much nothing

Especially in raid

[vale pine]

yes

[steel zinc]

but s1 will die during prog with it

100%

[vale pine]

it does not matter in raid, in m+ might do

[hazy breach]

I mean you just get healed

[vale pine]

ye

[lilac stag]

Just use rogue leech.

[hazy breach]

It doesnt make you have 15% less max HP for the entire duration

Its just one hit

[steel zinc]

just bind healthpot to the trinket

[vale pine]

haha

[steel zinc]

gotta macro it

[vale pine]

we have a lot of nice options this season

quite nice

[steel zinc]

trinket wise?

[vale pine]

yes

[steel zinc]

I would argue forge is kinda not gonna happen some others have way better use wit hit. Also prism yes its very good but after that everything imo is pretty meh

[vale pine]

we have 2 strong on use raid trinkets, lily, the pvp trinket and if you have a mythic version hoc

[steel zinc]

Passive ones we have good options on use not really imo

but hoc got nerfed

[vale pine]

and for the 2nd slot at least 2 good trinkets from raid and 1 from m+

true

hoc on non mythic is not good w/e

[steel zinc]

yeah thats w/e anyways

Gotta check if the prism buffs did anything for other classes

because before the change it was bis just fdk and rogue thats it

[frank path]

Yeah I’m not getting that ahead of fdk for loot

[steel zinc]

we have one dps dk

the prism is already bis at same itemlevel as hoc

[frank path]

I think we are running 2

[swift tinsel]

I'm thankful we had 2 warriors and 2 monks swap so I'm not rolling against 6 other people this time for tier

[steel zinc]

you do splits?

[swift tinsel]

nah

[steel zinc]

ok then I understand

if you do one split go lfr you will get to like 85% 4p week 2

apart from healer and tanks

[swift tinsel]

ye I always hit up lfr and get gear maybe half the time

[steel zinc]

yeah same I just go in with like a couple of alts with mates and just roll on my token

worst case I just offer like 2 mill gold or so for it

never had one decline that much gold in lfr

[swift tinsel]

I usually get decently lucky with world boss loot week 1 but I haven't looked if there is one or its loot table

[spring gull]

Are there any Sub Simulations with latest hotfixes & tunings?

[steel zinc]

yeah sec I can post but its not bis profile with bis trinkets

[spring gull]

with with max gear

sry

[steel zinc]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/12Dk1ueTKdZMZ3rUortVTS

its max gear

its just missing like the new bis trinket

its like 30k more

the 2nd boss crit trinket

[spring gull]

ah ok, thx hm is there als a list of sims for all classes,? want decide my pick favorable rogue for raid

[steel sierra]

I know we're going to get a stat squish next expansion, just trying to think about what this would look like if not

[steel zinc]

if you pick your rogue from sims your doing content where you should play w/e you like playing

but you will play sin fatebound st and sub on cleave where funnel is not relevant thats my take

[shell widget]

hi mate question, i cant find the classic mop rogue server can u help me ?

[steel zinc]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/494574420854308884

[shell widget]

this is the only chan for classic mop ?

[spring gull]

so sin fatebound is the go to for ST? dont know where you find all the sims or do you do them on your own?

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

but they are a couple of days old

[spring gull]

y thats why i asked

[steel zinc]

you can rerun them yourself and the profile

just rerun the profile yourself on ptr raidbots

but the assa one is just with 2p

just wait

and dont decide from 5min sims thats kinda bad

otherwise you play 14 warlocks in the raid

[keen dome]

Just play the spec you are best at and enjoy the most

[spring gull]

i raided many times CE so y i know, but sims often a good starting point

i like rogue

no matter which specc

[steel zinc]

Most here do^^

[spring gull]

y thats why i asked you 😛

[keen dome]

play all three specs and swap depending on fit to the fight

don't need sims to figure that out

[steel zinc]

just look at the fight timings shindig has a good vod about that

4 bosses have dmg amps

boss prep is way more important then any kinda what spec should I play. You wil play sin or sub

[shell willow]

I so glad sub and sin gear overlap is extremely high this tier. Moreso than previously.

[steel zinc]

its fine for raid m+ a bit scuffed

[shell willow]

True

[valid yoke]

do we know at what ilvl we want to swap to next tier set?

[knotty depot]

I'm still torn between the two so I'm glad for the gear overlap

might go sub first though since we have a more sin leaning rogue in the group as well

So we can be the greatest rogue duo ever

Warming the bench for each other

[steel zinc]

instantly

like lfr

4p is op

[steel zinc]

just play sin and sub

you can swap with sub "stats" to sin

and it doesnt matter

[slate marlin]

goated situation to be in

[knotty depot]

for my first tier going mythic in a while it's lookin good and I love it

way too hyped for s3 start

[swift tinsel]

sub owns and poised to do well

def hype scenario

[sharp lake]

only real difference between sub and sin stats is haste isn’t absolute garbage for sin right?

[slate marlin]

mostly ye

[ripe flame]

Sin likes haste, or well likes everything really

[slate marlin]

sin just doesnt care about stats

[swift tinsel]

ye people tend to overvalue haste for sin

[slate marlin]

a bit of haste is good for bleed sin

[sharp lake]

also like, in general for stat priority this next season, should be be more even between crit, mast, and vers? or are we still stacking? following sims led me to stack a lot more crit than i thought i would

[swift tinsel]

any combination of those three is gonna be fine

the robot will be able to add more nuance to that depending on your gear progression throughout the season

aim for 4pc with off-set shoulders

[slate marlin]

ye following robot is good

obviously dont re enchant all your gear for a .1% gain

[swift tinsel]

vers/mastery safe stats for crafted gear, can add crit if you want

[sharp lake]

ah shoulders are the bad one this time ty

[swift tinsel]

yeah there's good ones for us from raid which is nice

and we get vers/mastery dagger off boss 2 iirc

[sharp lake]

ooh that’s nice

[swift tinsel]

but there's 2 viable raid daggers and at least 1 from m+

so gearing s3 will be fairly flexy until you start honing in

[jagged rover]

early daggers is great for prog

[valid yoke]

nice

[hollow spear]

Having good pieces drop from 2/8 is goated

[steel zinc]

The 2nd Boss dropps everything for sub

like every item is bis

[graceful rock]

so whats the bit with shuriken nado, what am i pressing with it?

[knotty depot]

We don't play shuriken tornado at the moment I believe

[graceful rock]

not even in ptr?

[knotty depot]

Ah maybe I wouldn't know there

I certainly hope not

[honest basin]

I also hope not that talent is #2 for me right behind dust

[graceful rock]

the sheet dungeon build has it

[brittle plinth]

Raid drop for off piece

Sucks

[honest basin]

Fuckin hate dust

[knotty depot]

Dust was a weird design but it did allow interesting things 😄

[honest basin]

Fuck dust

Me and all my homies hate dust

[swift tinsel]

its off second boss

plus there's good ones from taz too

[steel zinc]

in theory its bis on live rn and on ptr

it sims best

but sim for dungeon slice is cooked imo

play w/e you want

[knotty depot]

Learned something my bad

[steel zinc]

overdesined compared to other specs. You can play BM with 4 buttons and 2 cooldown buttons .

[knotty depot]

But god I hate this talent so much

I do think simplifying rogue a bit wouldn't hurt if that means no more bugs tbh

[steel zinc]

I am very sure we will get a rework of our hero talents

not the name or anything just a full talent rework

not now in beta

like if you watch any wow content and they talk rogue they lit say rogue hero talents are the worst

and that is 100%

[swift tinsel]

DS needs jesus for sure, trickster doesn't need a full rework

[slate marlin]

yep im expecting a hero talent rework for 12.0

fatebound needs baby jesus

[swift tinsel]

fatebound also actual troll

[steel zinc]

DS the mark is not made with sub in mind

[swift tinsel]

funnily sub has easiest time with mark

[steel zinc]

fatebound was already in beta a nothing hero talent. It has so little gameplay might aswell name it Dmg increase talent +20%

[swift tinsel]

dn is worse offender

for sub esp

[steel zinc]

my best log was with deathstalker in raid

[rotund pawn]

you dont like seeing coins dropped on ground?

[steel zinc]

So easy

must be good then

also deathstalker is a nothing talent in st

and a pain for assa

[honest basin]

DS is cringe, fatebound is worthless, trickster is the best of the bunch and even then the most fun part of it is a 6 sec cool down reduction on sectech

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

trickster without playing around fw would be a lot better

until sub gets a full aoe rework

[astral axle]

you might say it is a real pain in the assa

[slate marlin]

you mean sub would be better without fw

[astral axle]

[swift tinsel]

yep

trickster gains esp since you don't have to track fw to know when to bp, ideally you bp >9 targets

[steel zinc]

The funny thing is trickster is good because it got the most feedback. It was the hero talent where you had to feint for dmg.

[swift tinsel]

but that aint the world we live in atm

idk ds has gotten a lot of feedback too

otherwise we could still stack marks to the moon

but dn/mark bug showing up literally put a stopper on ds gameplay

and unlike sin we can't spatter our dn evisc

so the degen aoe gameplay exists

[slate marlin]

ds also has no cdr

[honest basin]

DS had a lot of feedback from what I recall because the first iteration of it was what we have now but with like 3 less damage nodes

[swift tinsel]

ye ds cd windows feel way worse too

[honest basin]

So it was just as boring and one dimensional and also added fuck all

[slate marlin]

didnt ds had a node that made your autoattacks shadow dmg or something?

[swift tinsel]

hunt them down

still exists

but plague damage

[honest basin]

DS has a node that makes your autos do plague damage, and it's like double your actual auto attack damage

[knotty depot]

My issue with Trickster is the amount of added things to track with Flawless form, Fazed and invisible UB

[swift tinsel]

and they giga buffed it early on too bc it was so laughable

but forgot to buff fatal intent

[honest basin]

Shout-out to, what is it, the mark that pops at sub 30% that does like maybe a few hundred thousand damage? XD

That's it, fatal intent

That talent is so laughably bad

[swift tinsel]

yep, stops stacking at 30% but pops at 20%

[astral axle]

ink pod at home

[swift tinsel]

hey if you game it and try to time the pop with lingering/sod it does the same damage as one UB crit

[ripe flame]

The sin DS bugfix that made the sub DS double DN window impossible is a good shout out too

[honest basin]

Yeah, sub just inherently has a lot to track. I feel like us and outlaw kinda got shafted on the "how many things do you need to track to play your class" front

[swift tinsel]

that's why we can't track UB without estimator WA's

one less thing lmao

[honest basin]

Sin also has a decent amount of stuff but literally all of it p much is applied to an enemy so any half decent nameplate/frame tracker fixes that

Just really feels like every tier blizz tries to get people to play sin for prog, and it's turbo cringe

Reminds me of the quote about demo lock in mop or whatever, "we don't want you playing this spec" lmao

[swift tinsel]

I'm hoping that's why they're leaving ds in the dust

11.2.5 rework

omega hopium

[wheat elk]

anyone by chance got a screenshot or link of the new build?

[honest basin]

There's been one floating around, p sure it's the usual with Planned Execution(?) over weapon master

I remember the name of the haste version of the choice node bc of a stupid joke someone made lmao

But always forget the crit one

[swift tinsel]

planned execution is crit

[glacial kraken]

weaponmaster is demon talent

[swift tinsel]

warning signs haste

tfd over wm

[honest basin]

Warning signs because it's warning you that you're about to take a haste talent

[hazy breach]

My recommendation is to not show these buffs constantly, but instead show if theyre not up

And for fazed specifically i have it only showing if i have coup ready and it is not up

[swift tinsel]

I have fazed on my eb/coup aura and it keeps things tidy

[hazy breach]

Brings down the clutter quite a bit, but ye sub has a lot of buffs that looks like you should track it but in practice they dont really matter

[honest basin]

Nothing matters, send that evis

[hazy breach]

Im tracking way less things on sub than on assa

I literally have 3 empty slots in my ui because ive got nothing useful to track

[swift tinsel]

I think my auras are down to sod/dance/sectech/flag/blades/rupture

eb

[honest basin]

That's fair ig. I suppose it's the feeling of "I need to track this bc it seems important" when like you said a lot of it isn't that important

[swift tinsel]

sin is bogged for sure tho

[honest basin]

Tbh I just rock a base luxthos weakaura and yolo it idk, can't be fucked with messing around with shit

It has all my damage buttons and my energy bar on it, good enough for my smooth brain

[swift tinsel]

3 bleeds, mark/dn, dm, shiv, kb(if specced)

[wheat elk]

i got a question, if we build verse and mastry, why do we take planned execution in this new build?

is 6% crit that much valuable?

[swift tinsel]

I lean on circular textures and glows for a lot of proc/buff stuff without needing to dedicate extra aura slots to them, helps a bit too

[hazy breach]

We mostly dont want haste

Crit is pretty good

[wheat elk]

true but ive seen almost everyone max verse and mastry

unless im wrong

[steel jolt]

that's because not everyone has the same gear. to know what is best for you, you should sim

[hazy breach]

Well theres no 6% vers during symbols talent either

[honest basin]

Crit value generally seems to catch up as you Dr vers and mastery

[hazy breach]

But ye vers mastery is usually slightly better, but in practice you pretty much just ignore haste

And youre good

[honest basin]

More damage bigger number more good

[ripe flame]

Big if true

[honest basin]

DW I've had a prophetic vision and in 12.0 there going to tie haste to our CDs and make us stack it

[plush roost]

That was my cook

[young crypt]

why is casual playing this in m+ vs cold blood build

[plush roost]

20% haste break point ⚠️ warning signs ⚠️ meta

[honest basin]

That's like a nightmare scenario

[swift tinsel]

haste for big Hunt Them Down value

[plush roost]

Because tea and vigor help a lot between cds and we get more cdr which means we care more about pressing our buttons between css

[swift tinsel]

tier set not affecting sectech means cb value goes down relative to the mastery from tea affecting coup

tea dance gamers

[wheat elk]

but like is this the build? or it has some tweaks

[steel zinc]

I explained earlier today why I play that build tldr. Just very good for fw spread and easy to play

I think casual has the same reason

[young crypt]

if its easier and does good dam, then why does almost nobody use it

[steel zinc]

who is nobody?

[hazy breach]

Wdym

[plush roost]

Kinda some people play darkbrew 2c finality and drop deeper daggers, inev, replicating shadowcraft rotten. Some play tornado. Its kinda all over the place for talents on ptr

[steel zinc]

wdym?

[wheat elk]

he means live

[bleak night]

wdym

[wheat elk]

probably

[young crypt]

yeah on live

[steel zinc]

live

thats like a different version try to download prepatch content

😄

[hazy breach]

Because cb is weaker when sectech is weaker

[young crypt]

okok didnt kno it changed that much stuff

[hazy breach]

And s2 tier set buffs sectech

S3 tier set does not

[young crypt]

gotcha

[wheat elk]

hopefully our beloved shadowblades will figure some next reset

surelyD:

[hazy breach]

I mean we know whats simming then highest

But m+ is famously hard to accurately sim

[wheat elk]

honestly anything that aint got tornado in it is good

[plush roost]

I mean idk, they all have their upsides and downsides. Like tornado + brew sims really well iirc. But its boss dps is lower so do you value your overall and drop shadowcraft? Maybe comp dependant

[hazy breach]

You can just not play nado

Its not a huge talent

[wheat elk]

may i ask for a calculator link of the said build plz

or a ss

[plush roost]

You just swap nado with veiltouched if you dont want nado simple as

[lilac stag]

Why are you playing sub in m+ if not for the boss dmg.

[plush roost]

Ye thats kindof the conclusion ive come to on ptr

[lilac stag]

arguably your greatest strength

and actual reason to bring the spec

[plush roost]

I think if sub is brought over assa to some keys you just route around its cds and play similar to live build rn