subtlety

[solemn lance]

Moves us up a couple spots

[clever delta]

eleem help

where do i find the race sims

[hollow spear]

We are at 5.2ish rn

[vital urchin]

are you counting the 5% posted yesterday?

[swift tinsel]

fuu's sheet has them

otherwise #tc-research message

[clever delta]

they are removed wnow

now

[swift tinsel]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qWkH7pFHsnjij9AmisyYAx

sorry sim took a while

[valid yoke]

Thinking sub is gonna be the way to go for me this season 😄

[indigo drift]

Do it friend

It's great

[steel zinc]

its like 22k more rn

200k

[swift tinsel]

just used the profile from the sheet

not likely to affect race sim too much

that's what mimiron is

[steel zinc]

ya

mb

your right

[swift tinsel]

and ran with Latest

[steel zinc]

but the sim is wrong

100%

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

it's a race sim

the point isn't absolute highest dps, its relative dps between races

[warm marlin]

it doesn't matter for the reason u stated, but it is using the old apl

[steel zinc]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jXV4r11d1KHG7fjGJXsuCP

this is the new one

200k more

[swift tinsel]

okay cool

he asked for a race sim, so the 200k isn't that impactful for that

[valid yoke]

where do I find this?

fuu's sheet?

[swift tinsel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

light version has s3 info

[valid yoke]

ah thanks

[swift tinsel]

looks like dark version has it too now

[valid yoke]

outlaw fatebound showing up highest? thats unexpected

[swift tinsel]

it often does

[valid yoke]

cos it assumes best case scenario I assume?

[warm marlin]

outlaw always sims highest

[valid yoke]

assa fatebound being better than deathstalker is wild lol

[bleak night]

assa fatebound is also normally ahead of ds in st

it just falls off a cliff as soon as you add any extra targets so it hasnt seen play

[vital urchin]

those sims don't have the tuning from yesterday

[bleak night]

this time around its much further ahead though

[valid yoke]

ahh

[vital urchin]

outlaw and sin got 4%, sub got 5%,

[valid yoke]

huge

that makes me happy cos sub looks so fun lol

[steel zinc]

its always been bis on pure st

just it has a talent that more adds are in the fight the less dmg you do

[valid yoke]

fair

how you guys feeling about sub then for next tier?

🙂

[chrome palm]

It’s really 4% after everything is taken into consideration

Fatebound got big buffs

The nimble change could be extremely impactful in raid

Like on nexus king platforms sub might obliterate those

[hazy breach]

Probably only the first one as you wont have cds for the amp right after otherwise

But maybe, who knows

[vital urchin]

What nimble change are you talking about? All I saw was a 5% nerf

[chrome palm]

Nimble 65%->60% but affected by blades

[hazy breach]

When blades is up nimble is stronger

[vital urchin]

(I truly hate how wowhead presents patch notes btw, impossible to keep tabs on what's changed)

[hazy breach]

Also worth noting that nimble is 60 on live, so its not actually a nerf

[vital urchin]

oh

[hazy breach]

Yeah thats why you dont read the datamining

But just read the notes

[vital urchin]

problem is the datamining comes out and we don't see notes for a while

[chrome palm]

But being in blades is good because you can just hold cds for adds

[upper narwhal]

Imagine if nimble was just better on 8 targets every time how blessed would sub gameplay be

[chrome palm]

And you’re not really gonna bp in raid anyways

[vital urchin]

Remember when our only AoE was BP?

[upper narwhal]

SL storm-bp spam was for sure something

[vital urchin]

I mean I enjoyed it

but I also enjoyed corruption frostscyth dk

[chrome palm]

There is a way to relive that enjoy right now!

[upper narwhal]

If they reverted storm cost it would be nice

[chrome palm]

Lovely death stalker hero talent 🥰

[vital urchin]

The simc guys gotta be teasing us

[steel zinc]

Some asked for trinket sims:
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3DnXbqY2d9MxSzJGD2Q8PS

credit to fuu I just took what he had and added the pvp trinket to max itemlevel (max is actually 704) so its probably much worse.

[knotty depot]

I'm a bit rusty on sub, and something puzzled me I don't remember how I did it before. When we get close to Flag/SB window

if SecTec is up

Is there an approximate number of when it's good to hold SecTec ?

[chrome palm]

~20s

[knotty depot]

Yeah so I overestimated a lot the cd reduction when I was running some stuff

thanks

[chrome palm]

in aoe you can potentially go lower because you can cdr it very quickly

[steel zinc]

Or new 4p

I just dance at 30 sec and only thing I am missing more symbols charges

[hollow spear]

Dry dances are a thing for sure

In m+

[chrome palm]

it feels || dirty ||

[glacial wind]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

Not updated

Scroll up

[subtle garden]

So, I'm looking through the sims for next season and comparing to builds from this season. Was there a change that made it more beneficial to take First Dance over weapon master other than our tier set lowering the value of weapon master?

[chrome palm]

tfd is better in all content right now

sometimes sims dont reflect this

[subtle garden]

so then the sims are running the correct build, it just seemed off from what other information I had looked at.

[chrome palm]

the sims are running the build that sims the highest

raid is usually pretty close in terms of sims vs what people actually use, but m+ is often very different because dungeon slice is not a very good model of an actual dungeon

[chrome lake]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stiff spear]

Why are Rogue sim numbers looking so much lower than all the other classes I keep hearing. I thought we were fine?

[tepid trellis]

sims does not =/= actual performance

[thin sinew]

I love this time of patch where people latch onto insignificant sims 🙃

[bleak night]

im glad im finally able to reroll to whatever sims highest

[tribal blade]

i kinda stopped paying attention to sim numbers when i realized how much they don't correlate to real performance

[bleak night]

[warm marlin]

It is funny to hear these people say “my spec is doomed I only sim 5.6M though”

[bleak night]

my rl posted sims and said that arms was down bad

higher than any rogue sim

sims are fun

[random mason]

Arms is worse to play than outlaw

[bleak night]

impossible

(i havent played arms a single time in my entire life)

[random mason]

I love lining up 20s, 25s, 45, 1min and 1min30s cooldowns

I think it had all of those timings

[subtle garden]

warrior no brain, warrior just smash

[bleak night]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hMqvb8QiUk

[alpine wraith]

funny that it was fury that had the hype execute

[clever delta]

well my guild think rogue is dogshit too as they look only at sims

[fleet wharf]

this so much lmao. I dunno why but i'm watching Max's tier list thing and lot of the takes are fucking ridiculous

[swift tinsel]

yeah there's some serious delusion going on

[solar geode]

no way is that shindig on maximum stream...

[tame terrace]

yea

[normal flume]

is sub hard to learn

[quaint nimbus]

no

[solar geode]

nah just press buttons

[normal flume]

hows it looking for season 3

[quaint nimbus]

Just have slightly fast fingers

[jaunty heath]

Just a steep learning curve, you get there tho

[fleet wharf]

just don't fuck up bro or you'll do healer damage

[solar geode]

its like launching a missile just wait for all your shit to be up and send it

[jaunty heath]

Learn a sequence, learn when to use it

Dumbed down

[quaint nimbus]

They look ok in raid I think

[normal flume]

is it looking good in season 3

whats the best spec for rouge in ptr currently

[quaint nimbus]

UHHHH Sin?

[fleet wharf]

oh no, the secret is out

they'll patch it out

[quaint nimbus]

I could be making shit up

[normal flume]

i was just wondering cause im looking for a new main

[thin sinew]

10 rogue rwf!

🤣

[solar geode]

you heard it here first

[rare radish]

lol

[solar geode]

or rather

there first

[rare radish]

got baned cause i said i would rather hear from whispry, fuu or eleem

my bad i guess

[quaint nimbus]

is it shindig talking rn?

[fleet wharf]

yea being baned sounds terrible. what plane did you get sent to?

[normal flume]

yea

[quaint nimbus]

My GOAT shindig

[rare radish]

in max chat

[rare radish]

yeah

[normal flume]

one more question which race is good for sub rouge or rouge in general

[rare radish]

nothing against shi btw

[upper narwhal]

For damage Maghar orc is bis

[solar geode]

i liked void elf active alot in s2 but idk how good it will be in s3

havent seen the bosses ive been sleepy

[rare radish]

every small iirc play what you like

[solar geode]

true

[drifting fable]

shindig so zased

sub rogue S tier

[warped ferry]

He’s honest I rate it

S tier tho

[drifting fable]

i agree tho

[warm marlin]

putting it where it deserves to be rather than giving in to the sandbagging

[drifting fable]

sub rogue is really good

[warm marlin]

based

[drifting fable]

for next tier

but not S tier

[smoky geyser]

he did say s tier, but changed because the rest rated theirs so low

[drifting fable]

more like A

[rare radish]

we are high a

[drifting fable]

so many dishonest sandbaggers

[rare radish]

for raid i mean

[warm marlin]

could see low s if people like the warlocks were honest

[solar geode]

this shit must be broadcasted on ITV the way its all sandbaggers

[smoky geyser]

the arcane mage guy is the worst imo lol, literally the best mythic+ spec in ptr

[rare radish]

lol

[smoky geyser]

didn't even go s tier, still said a tier, what a joke

[fleet wharf]

the sandbagging has been insane lol

[broken shadow]

mm being in dobby is wild

[merry elbow]

maybe stop listening to tier list xD its the biggest joke every single season

[solar geode]

how else will i know what fotm class to pick

[random mason]

Spin a wheel

[smoky geyser]

thats true, wild, just because they got nerfs, they still do great dmg

[broken shadow]

yea their damage is still quite good

[merry elbow]

have you tried to play whats really fun instead of fotm xD

[fleet wharf]

is demo like crazy style good right now?

[warm marlin]

yes

[rare radish]

waht we cant funnel

[warped ferry]

He’s so innocent

[tame terrace]

based

[warm marlin]

the whole tierlist got griefed by kalamazi sandbagging so now everything is like -1 tier where it should be

[smoky geyser]

sub a tier, comapred to the others... nah shindig got it wrong

[solar geode]

but how will i ruin keys by playing a new class i dont know how to play every season?

[merry elbow]

clown hahaha xD

[upper narwhal]

Sub is underrated af for m+ next tier, it’s quite solid

[violet palm]

Why are you even pay attention to the tier list place?

[upper narwhal]

It’s not gonna be wf meta spec but it’s quite good

[smoky geyser]

sub is solid, but look how bad the other dps sandbagged in the list

[rare radish]

1000%

[drifting fable]

warlocks ruining everything nothing new

[solar geode]

what can i say im a bit of a silly sausage

[rare radish]

what the hell

[tepid trellis]

correct, we kinda dont

[smoky geyser]

shindig is talking too much

[rare radish]

actually you are right

sorry after thinking

[solar geode]

dead inside wow players when a real passionate mf starts talking

[rare radish]

?

[tepid trellis]

he talking about max's face on stream atm

listening to shindig

[rare radish]

lol ok

[tepid trellis]

yappin

[rare radish]

missed that

[tame terrace]

he perked up

[fleet wharf]

it was funnier when he was leaning against the mic lol

[tame terrace]

with the s tier

[random mason]

Gotta be exhausting to listen to ppl talk for 5 hours straight

[delicate current]

dude shindig is the goat holy

[solar geode]

this is called having a job no?

[fleet wharf]

surely this means more invites for rogues

[rare radish]

fair

[smoky geyser]

not wrong about assa, especially with recent tuning, assa is killing it in m+

[rare radish]

disagree

[random mason]

A shit job yeah

[delicate current]

whuh

why

he's passionate

you can tell he cares

[half comet]

rather have something correct

:p

[rotund pawn]

he cares but think he goes way too deep into it

[warm marlin]

I think hes yapping slightly too much but info has been good so far

[rare radish]

no problem with that but not corrct on a few things and just rambling

[fleet wharf]

yea, I appreciate the passion. much rather have that than cynicism

[random mason]

Guys

Just go on the show next time instead of shin

Ez fix

[delicate current]

I mean this whole stream is a yap sesh

[rare radish]

true @random mason will stop

[solar geode]

i would love to go on stream and just yap misinfo that would be so sick

[rare radish]

lol

[shut ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/kjkeyspammingbelike-gif-20130186

[rare radish]

hahaha

[solar geode]

W shindig

[upper narwhal]

He did good

[plush roost]

such as?

[loud brook]

It’s pretty much all misinfo already honestly

[sturdy cliff]

big w

[loud brook]

Most of guests have basically zero clue what’s going on with other class specs and somehow this is a ranking comparing to other spec lol

[tepid trellis]

@long sun splendid job man

[warm marlin]

yea goated review goated tiering goated anti sandbagging

[swift tinsel]

ye those were some actually ethical rankings, W shit

[thin sinew]

Did a good job keeping us below the radar

[solar geode]

I'm guessing they haven't changed much about how sub plays for s3

[swift tinsel]

nope mostly the same

[thin sinew]

The same but slightly better feeling

It’ll have to do

[solar geode]

is the tierset any good? the s2 one seems way stronger but I could be smoking something

[swift tinsel]

yeah its quite strong

adds more rng than s2 tier but adds good damage

[solar geode]

more rng than s2 is really funny considering thematics

[tepid trellis]

u be smoking

very hard

season 3 is ALOT

stronger

and its even more rng

then the season 2 one

[left jungle]

what mean rng?

[swift tinsel]

random number generation

adds more randomness

[left jungle]

thanks for teach i'll google that words more

[tepid trellis]

basically a word used for variance in dmg pull to pull

[clever delta]

bro the current tier set

[steady dune]

ah s3 has even more rng then? I was hoping to get away from it lol

[clever delta]

is so fucking dog shit design

i love end my cds at 4 stacks

to lose them with first finisher after

[tepid trellis]

just dont track it

cant be angry at what you dont see

[warm marlin]

"boomkin might be the worst spec in the game, it sims 5.2M!" classic tettles

[clever delta]

i cant help myself

[warm marlin]

boomkin sandbag masters

[swift tinsel]

yeah dude has the worst takes on the planet

[tepid trellis]

this u right now

[clever delta]

yes

thats correct

[solar geode]

is coup just alot more damage than I'm imagining?

[tepid trellis]

it doesent only do dmg

it gives you flawless form staccks

[woven kettle]

we catching strays from tettles chat

[swift tinsel]

and 5 extra cp worth of cdr

[woven kettle]

although not wrong

[solar geode]

ohhhh right

[tepid trellis]

bro that......

[solar geode]

OK I get it now

sick

[tepid trellis]

2.5sec more cdr LETS GO PER COUP

[warm marlin]

its all about that sectec cdr

huge!

[tepid trellis]

each proc after you consume both coups will give you 10 stacks in total of flawless which is 30% finisher dmg for 12 sec

[left jungle]

Due to the thistle mechanism that assa has, I prefer sub more, but this choice shouldn't be a bad one, right?

[tepid trellis]

quite good indeed

[solar geode]

ZAMN

[long sun]

TY!!

[solar geode]

no way its shindad

[tepid trellis]

for what its worth, sub tends to be go to for progression raiding

seems to just always land that way with tuning every tier (last like 6 of em)

[left jungle]

that's good opinion thanks

[solar geode]

I'm hyped for s3 I know nothing about like 70% of the dungeons and like almost nothing about raid but I got a good feeling

[left jungle]

And by the way, doesn't it seem like there's no intention to change the thistle mechanism?

[tepid trellis]

probably not

[solar geode]

also what's the general consensus about find weakness are we still waiting for it to be shot

[swift tinsel]

FW sucks please kill it

[tepid trellis]

i have a temple for it out back that i pray to every morning

[solar geode]

they should replace it with a perfect clone that you have to micro

dota 2 style

[tepid trellis]

[solar geode]

there were many great artists who were hated by those who couldn't understand their genius

[tepid trellis]

or they were just straight cheeks at drawing

[solar geode]

I'm like the Vincent van gogh of suggesting stupid gameplay changes

[north schooner]

only if it allows you to deny low health allies

[solar geode]

SO TRUE

blowing up your friend with a dot on them with sectech would be so funny

[tribal blade]

someone i know gave up

[bleak night]

[tribal blade]

he was 3730 2 months ago so he would be way over cutoff by now

[random mason]

Old outlaw killing spree but you can transfer the delayed dmg to allies

[tribal blade]

but he said it wasn't worth his mental health

i respect it

i feels it

[ripe flame]

Pugging title for m+ doesn't sound like a good thing for a person

[tribal blade]

he got abandoned by his group

and was like "nah f this"

good for him

[left jungle]

I have watched many youtubers, but no matter how I think about it, the perspective of the youtubers who see the sub as wrong seems to be off.

[tepid trellis]

we have like 0 sub rogue content creators on youtube

Assa is the only spec thats got one and thats whispyr

[random mason]

I mean theres not a lot you can do imo

[warm marlin]

put some respect on zac's name

[random mason]

Upload key runs

Make one video guide

Maybe a video per dungeon

For like specifics

[tepid trellis]

i remember talking to guy once about maybe doing some boss guide videos, but never really came to anything more than a chat xD

[tribal blade]

!guy

bot's broken

[tepid trellis]

moroes is sleeping

[tribal blade]

until he decides to garrote me irl

i'm explaining how DS works to someone who's asking me how easy sin is to play

it's always funny explaining DS to someone who hasn't played it

[patent berry]

Stralthi youre my sub goat you should do videos about sub 🙂

[left jungle]

I just... miss smolderon

[tepid trellis]

im waaaaay to lazy to learn how to edit videos

if i need to do more than regular cuts

i tap out

[tribal blade]

can you muster up the excessive energy most youtubers use to maximize engagement

[patent berry]

Fair enough but think about it you'll get alot of views

[tribal blade]

WHAT'S UP EVERYONE

[left jungle]

Even so, I want to express my gratitude to you for your writing for sub.

[tribal blade]

BE SURE TO SMASH THE LIKE BUTTON AND HIT SUBSCRIBE

[tepid trellis]

"SUB FUCKERS"

[tribal blade]

haha

[left jungle]

i wonder casting of symbol of death before the battle, how many times can overlap before the battle?

[alpine wraith]

bro stealthi doing me dirtyt

[tepid trellis]

for supercharger?

[left jungle]

yes

[tepid trellis]

only works once

[alpine wraith]

more than 1k videos

smh

[left jungle]

once..

[tepid trellis]

dont know if it was fixed on ptr tho

[lilac stag]

I can do some of the editing if you want to get footage @tepid trellis

[tepid trellis]

ngl last i opned your channel i saw like a spree of not wow, so ive mentally erased your channel soz

[lilac stag]

slowly learning / teaching myself for my dog training stuff

[alpine wraith]

yea i also do PoE and LE

wow gets too stale

as i dont push M`+

editing can be fun

[left jungle]

I must be an idiot for just looking at the wa and pressing it multiple times.

[tepid trellis]

i do not find editing fun when davinci resolve crashed 5 times in 20 min

crashes*

[steel jolt]

skill issue

[random mason]

Set up a macro that saves every 45 seconds

[tepid trellis]

i save after everytime i change something pretty much

it just pisses me off

[lilac stag]

Free version or studio?

[tepid trellis]

once took me 3 days to do like 4 cuts in a 12min cideo

video*

cuz i got so mad

just the free version of it

[left jungle]

one can't do everything well.

[lilac stag]

studio is super stable in my experience. I’m still on 19. Have not moved to 20 yet

[tepid trellis]

and im quite okay with editing software since i use it for music still

[alpine wraith]

yea i use another PC that is for creating things

otherwise davinci loves to die

[tepid trellis]

but my god does those programs have the ability to piss me the fuck off

[lilac stag]

but I also went with a nvidia card i knew was happy with studio

A lot of the gamer cards are trash for it with 8mb of ram

also super easy to fill up HD with cache files.

that fucked my ssd one day

[alpine wraith]

4090s are kinda cheap for what they do

or even some of the older quadros

[lilac stag]

what the hell why is wow losing frame rate… oh look at that 200mb left free on the ssd.

[steel zinc]

Shindig and kush

Kush is 100% sub

[tepid trellis]

when i said content creation, i meant kinda the stuff whispyr does

[lilac stag]

we had the one eleem video

Then we never get any sub changes so it’s still current.

Pretty sure all 15 of us watched it like 20 times each

[tepid trellis]

like only thing i ever do is upload prog kills

since i dont really play all that much once im done with the tier since i dont do m+ anymore

unless sub is great

might do some boss overviews this tier

just my kill pov with me yappin or smth

[alpine wraith]

i mean i do guides and everything that happens to sub he is way more popular but it is what it is tbh

my most popular videos are LE ones XD

[shell willow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

Hachadino does it but to little following

yet!

[rocky ocean]

[hardy snow]

I wonder How does shadow damage type buff work on blade shadow damage copy of a shadow damage that is already buffed?

[chrome palm]

Shadow blades replicates 20% of any damage your abilities do, as shadow damage. Is that what you’re asking about?

[hardy snow]

If we have DB and evis shadow buffed by it and blade replicate 20%, and DB works again?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[mild brook]

I see two versions of the sub opener, one where we evic vanish rupture into cds and one where we skip the first evic + vanish to go rupture into cds, what is the ultimate difference between these two openers? Both seem to be just as good as one another

[neon walrus]

Man returning to retail / discord and forgetting all the lingo feels so bad

[steel zinc]

if you have disorienting strikes stocked up then you do the strike flag evis vanish rupture opener

and standard if you dont have them stocked up

but its like 0.6%~

eleem did some math on that correct me if I am wrong

[neon walrus]

Are Sub players happy with the kyrian+radiant spark, arcane mage-esk playstyle with requiring 15 sec of uptime to get that second big sectech off? I remember finding it quite annoying at times where you can't get it off

[mild brook]

Alrighty thank you for answering (:

[steel zinc]

Getting it off or not is the skill expression of the spec

As sub you should litterly know the fight timings and when to do dmg ahead of time

Probably in a raid setting the best person to ask about when to use cds is the arcane mage or sub rogue since they can shift cds

[rocky ocean]

Literally geometry dash

[viral phoenix]

does that logic apply the same to aoe? is vanish good to hold for the TFD bug in m+?

[neon walrus]

Except sometimes (actually quite often) it's unpredictable

[plush roost]

? Wdym

Your cds are quite literally scripted

Unless you messed up

[plucky parrot]

The only difference is on opener whether you proc a coup in your first dance or not

But the difference is just 1 extra global

[steel zinc]

not really since you will use buttons in aoe like strike, bs, storm

[steel zinc]

tfd on ptr has no bug anymore and works way better then on live. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuMEP3Qs9XM this video should help its @alpine wraith vid

[steel zinc]

that is just wrong

[bleak night]

how is getting off your sectec unpredictable

its so scripted people timed it down to the second on rik

[neon walrus]

oki XD

I'm more talking about m+

[steel zinc]

same

[neon walrus]

But I've been off retail for a bit so idk if i'll come up with examples

dont really care so much either way was just curious how ppl felt about it

[bleak night]

its still not unpredictable in m+?

like the only way you dont get it off is if the pack just fucking dies before

in which case it doesnt matter anyway

[viral phoenix]

so in aoe just to be certain its always flag rupture -> gogo? Do you flag evisc vanish rupture to get SND up on like the first pull?

[steel zinc]

thats why imo you should have a ttk next to your in combat time. You can use that from method raid tools.

[steel zinc]

Depends on pull if the pull is good to go and everything already stacked then just rupture and then go into cds. If the pull is being gathered flag and rupture most of it and then go into your cds

[plush roost]

I tend not to flag until im in cds so my flag can remain for a third dance

[steel zinc]

yeah you can do that too I guess

[hazy breach]

Sure the sectech does damage but its not like youre absolutely minmaxing just that ability. Everything you do in blades does a lot of damage

[plush roost]

Depends on how quickly i wanna get flag on cd

[steel zinc]

The bot wants to probably just rupture always everything

[viral phoenix]

so if its first pull of key proper protocal is something like rupture many targets on gather, then flag rupture pop cds and evisc on 2nd finisher in dance for Slice n Dice?

[plush roost]

But you have to also keep in mind that flag getting on cd fast but delaying sblades by spredding ruptures will still inevitably make you hold flag for a bit so its kinda w.e

[viral phoenix]

or would you do one of those evisc's on the gather outside of cds to get it up before cds

[plush roost]

In aoe snd is less important so you can just flag rup dance strike sectec

[steel zinc]

I would rupture as much as possible and use 2 ruptures in flag window and then go into cds

that also highly depended on what is pulled

[plush roost]

And if youre playing darkbrew you have no shadowcraft anyway so you have even less value with snd

[steel zinc]

This is all feelcraft btw. I know the dungeon slice just wants to flag and rupture everything and then go into cds

[viral phoenix]

whats the darkbrew use case in aoe for?

[steel zinc]

I would argu the ruptures actually do more damage then and should be with dark brew way higher in prio

[steel zinc]

Its a no shaodwcract build for S3 its really good for good aoe and consistant aoe

[neon walrus]

idk - i remember situations where (maybe no cloak up) something would happen and you get descynced pretty bad

kinda surprised to get such hostile reaction but i suppose ppl really love the spec XD

which is good to see, suppose that's what i was askign about in the first place

[plush roost]

As soon as a pack is gathered i go in sblades and stop ruptures because holding it multiple times a key will make me lose a cast

[hazy breach]

Its only slightly worse in sims to not apply ruptures on everything, and obviously if we make the fight length very specific so youd lose flag uptime its actually bad

[steel zinc]

yes totally

[bleak night]

didnt mean to seem hostile, ive just never noticed that issue

[steel zinc]

True yes

[neon walrus]

Nah yeah - at least for me, it just feels real bad if you can't get it off cause pack dies or something else

[steel zinc]

Its not hostile sorry. Just what you describe is like if I stand in fire I die and dont do damage argument imo.

[hazy breach]

Im just saying i think youre overvalueing the sectech specifically

[neon walrus]

I alt tabbed in and saw this message and was like WHATHAFUUUCK haha

[plush roost]

Eh if pack is dead in 15 globals then idc if i miss the second sec tec

Its that or never press my cds

[steel zinc]

yeah obvs but also why imo some kinda time to kill counter is important

[neon walrus]

no it's the " i have to soak / dodge during a critical moment of my rotation" arguemnt, the radiant spark/kyrian arcane mage thing if ppl know

[hazy breach]

Dont go around trying to minmax danse macabre for a bigger sectech

[steel zinc]

Then you plan cds ahead.

[neon walrus]

I mean yeah - sitting on CD"s as sub also feelsbad

[plush roost]

So the thing is, its not 15 globals either

Its 8-9 globals

[viral phoenix]

I swear there was an optimization about keeping SND up in aoe situations (specifically ones that you're using BP on) but just to clarify we can just let our coup de grace's auto take care of snd application in aoe situations and not think about it?

[plush roost]

Which means if u have to sit out for 2 seconds you can still hit the sec tec

[steel zinc]

that is actually a thing what makes the spec great. You can plan cds and shift around.

[hazy breach]

Yes coup procs your snd so its fine

[neon walrus]

now I just feel like I'm being negative XD but yeah - i love sub thouhg

[steel zinc]

In aoe when you dance you go dance strike, sectech, storm (if you want fw up), evis or bp (depends on target count and what you want to hit), strike and coup most of the time.

[steel zinc]

you hold for vexxie cds or?

Because every guild lusts around 2min mark

You hold also cds their and even better you just autoattack with a stored coup and dont do jackshit for 20 seconds

[viral phoenix]

darkbrew build is identical just drop shadowcraft for dark brew right? And its for big aoe? How much of a ST loss is it if a substantial amount?

and what changes made it so we could run this in s3?

[steel zinc]

yeah your a bit screwed in st. Its not omega bad but you lose quite a lot. I think eleem and better rouges know the number

[steel zinc]

Tier giving uns more cdr

having b2b coups gives you more dances imo then symbols charges sometimes

[viral phoenix]

ok that makes sense

how do you patch to DB here?

minus 1 symbols charge?

[steel zinc]

no premed and tornado and PV and no DD

[neon walrus]

i casually raided, haven't been M/CE in a while

just did keys until i couldn't get invited anymore despite gear/io being fine 🙁

[viral phoenix]

tornado holyyyy

[steel zinc]

yeah it sims best

its aids to play for me atleast

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/ahoklollmao-noooo-nooo-noo-no-gif-17139315586294057944

fuck tornado man

[steel zinc]

I play tea in keys though. Its op in S3 imo

[viral phoenix]

is tornado a button you wanna use before shadow dance or just not involved with dances

[steel zinc]

nah in sims it wants to spread with nado ruptures before anything

and gl doing that. For me thats a skill issue

[viral phoenix]

yeah i feel that

[steel zinc]

but take PV and remove DD and take Dark Brew

and your fine

[viral phoenix]

tea macro'd with dance easy?

[steel zinc]

yeah I have also a keybind for it

because sometimes tea comes up in dance

like 1 or 2 sec into dance

if you played DF S1 the tree above without shadowcraft plays like DF S1 just with blade flurry

[viral phoenix]

this looks dank as hell gotta respect it

any changes to raid build? I heard weaponmaster fully dead over TFD is that right

[steel zinc]

Since finality bug is now in sims this sims for me the highest

I play finality though with adds

The above can be already played live and is fuus best st sim

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

you can play that already on live

I did this week in raid

[viral phoenix]

oh interesting

[chrome palm]

you dont run premed? ive been trying this

[viral phoenix]

I havent played that planned execution talent ever this season, that better than Replicating?

[steel zinc]

I mean you can run it. Think both is possible. Premed is also huge qol

[steel zinc]

on st yes

also 6% crit chance is really good since its flat 6% and isnt influenced by dr or anything

[chrome palm]

only that youre pathing through imp sht which does nothing in aoe

[steel zinc]

That is for st

[steel zinc]

this aoe

[steel zinc]

this st

[chrome palm]

wonder if its a craft situation in db and then brew in mass aoe

[viral phoenix]

so I see dropping RS for that but 1 point in lethality / rotten is worse than planned execution in ST?

[chrome palm]

rotten gamers

or is it good

[steel zinc]

I play rotten on ptr

but thats my own cook just like playing it and applying fw

I can share sec

[viral phoenix]

is this aoe?

[steel zinc]

ya

but also doesnt lose so much st

has lots of sustain aoe

[viral phoenix]

interesting, lethality over DD

er finality

whatever that talent

[steel zinc]

ya

[viral phoenix]

so this is the non DB kinda standard sub gameplay from season 2 to season 3

spreading FW with rotten getting resets etc etc

[steel zinc]

that highly depends on the comp

like sub rogue is one of the specs that can do 90% aoe if they spec near full st

like best of both

or you go full send either and still do lots of the other

[viral phoenix]

is picking up DD for that point in finality a consideration

[steel zinc]

finality is op imo in m+

like the buff to bp is just to good

[viral phoenix]

with this DB build you're never pressing storm in dance ever right?

so are you more inclined to evisc in aoe until the target count breakpoint cause less FW spreading?

[teal prawn]

I wanna play db, most thematic talent to me

[steel zinc]

I just like after they fixed the rotten buff to after rupture do flag into cds and in dance do strike, sectech, finisher, storm and then bp into strike bp strike bp and if coup procs then coup > bp

[viral phoenix]

i wonder is it worth to try to shuriken storm once or twice on the gather to spread FW with the DB build? does shuriken tornado have a chance to apply FW?

[steel zinc]

nah you want to spread fw if possible just harder without rotten

I just play rotten because just makes everything easier

with rotten in cds if you dont screw up the rotation you always have FW up

in aoe

[viral phoenix]

yeah thats very nice

[steel zinc]

like not much thinking its a big pull you have FW up 100% just blast then aoe

might be not the best numbers wise maybe (idk) but just I can execute it the best and makes most sense to me

Did time with it higher ptr keys if that matter at all

[viral phoenix]

so like on the big paladin pull in Priory with that DB build you'd just spread rupture and try to get FW up before going into cds? and then when it falls off use shuriken storm as a builder even in dance to keep FW spread?

[steel zinc]

in db build rupture is the best spender

like no matter what

its like 3rd in dmg overall in the dungeon

[steel zinc]

I dont storm really with db

I strike because of nimble

now obvs if its like I pull half the dungeon cinderbrew might be worth

still strike is more prio dmg

and strike gives you coup proccs

so strike finisher strike finisher and with rotten spread once fw

[viral phoenix]

ok so with DB you DO avoid storming in dance cause no rotten?

that makes the most intuitive sense to me

[steel zinc]

yeah and only in rotten I do storm once to apply fw

[viral phoenix]

right right

DB sounds fun I'm just worried at the ST loss of like no shadowcraft

[steel zinc]

Rotten just makes sense to me and gives you more bp finisher

[steel zinc]

you will lose quite a bit napkin math like 12%~ st

but m+ is mostly aoe

highly depends on group comp

And if the tank chain pulls

You can sustain 10 mill + with dark brew np

[viral phoenix]

that sounds really nice tbh

[steel zinc]

I remember playing DB build eco dom and the tank pulled from 1-2nd boss b2b everything

I just like the rotten more gameplaywise since its ptr and I aint pushing just testing gonna test both

[viral phoenix]

looking at the value of running it on a dungeon like priory that has 2 ST encounters and one two target encounter does it fall of in low cleave as well like on the first priory boss?

DB that is

[steel zinc]

nah it doesnt fall off in low cleave

actually probably equal or more ahead since you dances just hit very hard

imagine you have 30% finality and then 10% more shadow damage

[viral phoenix]

right ok so priory with only 2 ST encounters then and heavy aoe seems like a good use case to deploy this build

ive gotta test that out

[steel zinc]

yeah just test it

if possible as sub rogue have a shaman

more qol

windfury op

also also sims run without tfd that is just wrong since tfd isnt really implemented well in sims

[viral phoenix]

oh yeah i was gonna double check, TFD > weaponmaster in all content right

[steel zinc]

ya

some fights that are super long wm is ahead

but idk the exact point

and its within less then 0.5%

[viral phoenix]

that sounds cool I'll just leave TFD slotted in then

and not think about it

appreciate the help, ty map

[steel zinc]

anytime good questions!

[viral phoenix]

oh wait actually 1 more question @steel zinc if you dont have premed do you use backstab in dance?

I swear if its something like you use BS with 4+ shadow technique stacks

for the DM stack

[hazy breach]

No you dont use backstab without premed

[brisk onyx]

I play this too

[steady dune]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[steel zinc]

what eleem said

[void ocean]

u guys ready for Saturday buffs

[chrome palm]

arms buff maybe

doubt we see anything

we pray for arms to be good in m+

[mint swift]

I just want Survival to be busted

[steel zinc]

doubtful sadly

if we get another 10% we busted everywhere

but not top

thats how screwed everything is

[hollow spear]

Since Blizzard listens to Max' stream, we'll get nerfed and warlock will get buffed

Unbelievable sandbagging from some classes, I physically cringed

[steel zinc]

if wl doesnt get nerfed you play 3 - 4 wl in rwf

like no meme

I think most guilds are preparing 2 if they have not

we can go 4 in our guild but then no spriest

[runic trail]

God no, please no more warlocks

[hollow spear]

Maybe there's going to be a tuning run after the m0 week

[runic trail]

I've lost enough hours in my life watching those fuckers set up the most complicated portal transit network known to man in order to forgo having to take 2 steps to the left.

[steel zinc]

also warlock sims have the correct degen stuff in

and every wl that raids mythic will do that degen stuff

its not more degen then what sub does

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sRnd2q8VuLU2GsXEv8i4v7
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4cjmrx8QAQ6udFfCETWdSV

Why is sub degen stuff with distorienting strikes 1.5% damage increase? Wasnt it 0.6% now? Or did I sim sth wrong?

[chrome palm]

it would be higher if you had predisorienting opener

[steel zinc]

Hopefully fuu can sim that

I cant to stupid I can just copy paste and add stuff

if its even more then we go brrrr

[fleet wharf]

how does pre disorienting work? just send sec tech before wipe?

[chrome palm]

yeah

[fleet wharf]

and it's like .6% dam increase if you have it?

[steel zinc]

its 1.5 with new tier and standard opener

and 0.6 now with predis opener

[fleet wharf]

I kind of want this kind of degen stuff to go away reeee

[steel zinc]

wrong spec for this

isnt even the most degen stuff rogue did

SL we did prepull talent swap stuff

with 3 macros

[chrome palm]

macro script swap

prepull is part of rogue class fantasy

[fleet wharf]

but I stopped playing lock to get away from prepull bs

[steel zinc]

I mean a warrio can still do that with its weapons. If they equip a shield and go into combat and then switch back to their main weapons they have the armor of the shield for the whole fight

[steel zinc]

I mean the symbols thing is a nothingburger and nothing degend imo

Symbols its like evo prepull for mage

or sigil for dh

[fleet wharf]

symbols thing is fine, I've been doing that, but the predisorienting is kind of on the verge of being too much

[steel zinc]

the thing is fuu said that the consistance. During prog its super annoying to stay a few sec more alive to sectech

[chrome palm]

mapko is the .5% supposed to be in standard build or tfd

that might be causing it if you arent accounting for that

[steel zinc]

good idea I have no clue I would speculate now

[chrome palm]

its prob that

[steel zinc]

Would have to run a sim without tfd

but cba doing that rn xD

its just to good imo not to do

people race change for 1.5% and thats over 100k dps

[chrome palm]

i will take the pretty velf tax for 30k dps

[shadow snow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fallow nimbus]

Velf port is goated

[haughty mural]

Like your build and agree 💯 %

Not sure about st though - haven’t had much time to test much things for myself there

[steel zinc]

It's really good St

[tribal blade]

might as well lean more into ST if you're gonna play sub in keys tbh

and just go with sub's niche

[hollow spear]

Losing boss damage to pad my overall goes against the reason I play sub for in the first place

Nothing better than beating all the funnel andies on the last boss of dawn breaker

[lilac stag]

assa and sub both have strayed, but at least Assa can claim it pumps into boss. Man I miss combo.

[hollow spear]

If you have a premade group that consistently pulls adds into boss, you can funnel well as assa

[lilac stag]

DB is an enjoyable sub dungeon. Can tolerate filling vault with it.

[hollow spear]

In a pug setting you're kinda lost

[lilac stag]

I generally pug so it’s the wild Wild West

[hollow spear]

And bleed sin prio/boss damage without funnel is atrocious compared to sub

Not that it matters for weekly keys anyway

[lilac stag]

nope

[hollow spear]

Based on ptr, it should be a cakewalk to 10s

[lilac stag]

Pug weekly’s is how much can you carry a dead dps

And it’s usually on bosses

Advantage sub ✅

[hollow spear]

We're S tier after all

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/magic-confetti-awesome-gif-11884906

[tribal blade]

i tried to fix a grammatical error on a movie's page and it got denied

am i high

[leaden prairie]

Skill issue noob

Would never happen to me

[tribal blade]

bro read this

an American sports broadcasting team must adapt to live coverage the Israeli athletes being held hostage

[keen dome]

that's terrible grammar

[tribal blade]

must adapt to live coverage OF the athletes

it's actually really weird what gets approved and denied on IMDB

as a contributor

i've done it a bunch, and sometimes some things where are 100% true and factual get denied (like that one)

i have a bunch of trivia things i added to movies and shows i'm pretty proud of though

[hollow spear]

Actual grammar national socialist

[tribal blade]

here's a good one i did recently

[hollow spear]

Haha

That's oddly specific

[tribal blade]

i know my exercise science 😉

if you haven't watched it it's a horror movie

honestly not a very good one tbh

[hollow spear]

Rabbit hasn't made its way into my workout nutrition

[tribal blade]

sorry if this is spam

but i'm having fun rereading these, i forgot i did some of them

[hollow spear]

This channel is hibernating rn anyway

Holding its breath for another doom and gloom sesh

[tribal blade]

lol trueeee

[keen dome]

We're gonna be good

[tribal blade]

ok this one is pretty funny

[hollow spear]

We could have been S tier, but Kalamazi and Azortharion ruined it

[keen dome]

We're always S tier.

[hollow spear]

In your heart maybe

We could be any tier, other specs are just F tier for me

[tribal blade]

we got the patented blizz coming in to tune sin to be the highest performing spec again 😉

honestly @lilac stag called it

[hollow spear]

Wdym?

[tribal blade]

with the latest tuning sin is looking to be the most dominant rogue spec in keys

for raid i'm guessing sub will still be the premier prog spec

because sub goes hard on dmg amps

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

Fatebound sim still treats it as 90s

Is that still the play?

Thought the changes now actually make it 90s

[steel zinc]

Yes and no

For pure st you will play sin

But that damage in mythic matters on fractilus more then 1 and 2

2nd boss is sin boss in execute 25% dmp amp

[short radish]

yeah but to be fair, that's like calling the sun will rise tomorrow

[tribal blade]

HAHAHA

fair enough 😉

[hollow spear]

Still not sure how we come to the conclusion we definitely play sin for pure st

What do we base that on?

[short radish]

didnt they get omega bugged?

[hollow spear]

Reading tea leaves?

[random mason]

Pretty sure fatebound sin is big dmg now

[hollow spear]

I keep reading that

Where does the pretty sure come from?

[random mason]

No idea about exact numbers tho

[hollow spear]

Is there some factual basis?

[short radish]

because they got a 12% buff or something

[random mason]

The buffs they got?

[fervent elm]

source: vibes

[hollow spear]

I'm not saying it can't be true

But I just don't see any sims

[brisk onyx]

?

[random mason]

Well patch is not out and i assume theres still apl cooking again

[brisk onyx]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brisk onyx]

^^

[fervent elm]

yeah i havent seen anything about the ptr other than Dimensius and the killing spree rework ngl

[hollow spear]

Have you look at the sheet who?

Or are you just linking it

[fervent elm]

but if the people who live and breathe rogue say x thing does more damage im inclined to take their word for it

[hollow spear]

It's old news

[brisk onyx]

yes i look at this and know it's a old one

[random mason]

Sim doesnt tell u how much burst fatebound or any other talents have

[hollow spear]

They kinda do if you open the html

[brisk onyx]

I mean, you can infer it from the old one, because the latest patch just buff some aura and abilities, of course, you can wait until the final version is completed

[random mason]

Also if you got sub gear you got assa gear

[hollow spear]

If they actually play it as a 90s class, it could be turbo

[lilac stag]

Gonna shit yourself when we get nerfed after heroic logs.

[tribal blade]

noooooo don't let it happen

not again

[random mason]

So its just a question of practice

[haughty mural]

Yes that’s true with that build 🙂
Just meant besides that I wasn’t able to test much ST stuff in raid builds - didn’t clarify though.. sorry

[lilac stag]

nah. They’ll buff assa once more.

[brisk onyx]

I'm pretty sure fb sin will, if you read about the cb changes

[lilac stag]

I think we just hit the same problem as s2. Get gapped in raid as dmg amps and adds are deleted

[brisk onyx]

that's all

[lilac stag]

FB assa kinda cracked.

and way easier for folks to play

I really don’t know wtf they decided to give assa another niche but here we are

[lucid jackal]

doesn't fatebound suck ass at like, even 2 targets

Ur taking at minimum, caustic on almost every fight, except maybe 2? right?

[steel zinc]

Yeah but it's playable and depending on your role you just Stick boss and blast it

[random mason]

Yeah

[lucid jackal]

I mean, even on the "St fights" this tier, or any tier, you still play caustic

[cursive island]

Zeross just Cooked a FB build in M+ lol

Wait for it

[lucid jackal]

Its like not even a 1% loss for infinite AOE damage

[lilac stag]

not from the initial playing in keys so

yes it’s negative impact on adds but they cranked it so high it’s going to slam a focus target

[random mason]

You do less dmg the more targets there are

[lucid jackal]

and fatebound actively has talents that reduce ST damage when multiple targets are added

and this sim in the sheet doesn't even include IB or caustic

We need to kill ST sims I stg

[steel zinc]

Yes but still doesn't mean you will never play it outside fracti

[hollow spear]

The problem with cranking on boss is

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I mean theres the silkworm boss, and the fracti boss too

[hollow spear]

If adds spawn next to it you're still fucked

[shadow snow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

how are you fucked. You just don’t cleave as much as DS

[hollow spear]

Your st goes down

[lilac stag]

and the ST is better

[hollow spear]

Is why

[lucid jackal]

the ST isnt better

thats the point

[fleet wharf]

your boss damage goes down, damage remains constant, no?

[lucid jackal]

This talent makes you deal less ST when theres more targets in range

[shadow snow]

The sims are not updated right?

[lucid jackal]

This talent does less damage when more targets are in range

[spiral sierra]

<---- waiting for DS build for SUB

[lucid jackal]

Even as a "ST BOT" no aoe talents, no cleave talents, no nothing, you are dealing LESS Damage when more targets are in range for FB

[leaden prairie]

bro doesnt know

if you want number outlaw fatebound loses 20% prio damage on 8 target

[lucid jackal]

obviously this doesn't matter on the PURE PURE st bosses, that have 0 adds

[leaden prairie]

idk the scaling couldnt tell you at less targets

but ye

[lucid jackal]

Like the silkworm, like fracti

[lilac stag]

and DS ST isn’t great. So yes it’ll come down to numbers. I think folks may be surprised when they sit down with it.

[lucid jackal]

But these like "Pure st no cleave talents no nothing" sims are so dumb

If u want ST and cleave, u just play trickster sub

[hollow spear]

Single target fb might be killing it

Anything else probably not

[lucid jackal]

ST fatebound is probs the best rogue has for ST

[lilac stag]

Yes they’re stupid fucking friction by our lovely design team

[lucid jackal]

But for any cleave fight, ur just gonna play sub

Friction is an important part of game design 😄

[leaden prairie]

sometimes its a bit too much guy

[random mason]

at least they're both on dagger spec

[leaden prairie]

fatebound is an example of that

[lucid jackal]

Maybe

[lilac stag]

sure it is. Excessively no.

[random mason]

imagine one of em outlaw one of em sub/assa

[leaden prairie]

when you have every spec in the game that just funnels

and then

you are there

losing 20% st in aoe

im like

ok buddy

[lilac stag]

When we run out of ideas just add friction to rogue.

[hollow spear]

For some reason I enjoyed playing fb sin more than playing ds

[lilac stag]

PERFECT

[leaden prairie]

at least the talent deals insane aoe right ?

no, it deals less aoe

[lucid jackal]

FB sin is chill

[hollow spear]

Maybe because of MA

[leaden prairie]

the friction is you just do st only

[spiral sierra]

i turned off discord for 2 min, got like 100 messages here

[lilac stag]

Zoomin

[spiral sierra]

bruh no kiddin

[lilac stag]

Welcome to the party

[lucid jackal]

But yeah I mean

[spiral sierra]

ty

[lucid jackal]

Ppl need to remember that "cleave" is probably more important than "PURE ST PATCHWORK NO CLEAVE TALENTS SIM DPS"

Its been that way for awhile now

[lilac stag]

The couple runs people did in keys as FB, the dmg was still cranked. Once it hits live we shall see

[lucid jackal]

Like in the context of sin, how many fights have been IB fights over Spatter fights.

Sikran? Nexus? Cauldron..? Sprocket?

Like 4 fights are pure ST lol

[fleet wharf]

Couldn't you get some value out of splatter on CoC?

[lucid jackal]

Sure but that isn't a "PURE ST" setup lol

[lilac stag]

they are all caustic because you forget to change talents.

[lucid jackal]

Yeah but idr if IB or Spatter was better overall

I'm sure fatebound, aoe build, will be good in keys

But Sin is very one or the other when it comes to damage profile in keys

[cursive island]

this

[lucid jackal]

U can't really get "mega aoe" and "mega ST"

u pick one or the other generally

The main point is that when u add targets, fatebound ST goes down

So just because it sims "5% higher" or whatever, doesnt mean that it's actually going to translate to 5% more boss damage on a majority of encounters

[lilac stag]

and maybe you’re not running a pure ST and still slamming for more boss dmg. That side of the dagger tree actually gets to play with talents even if they didn’t this tier.

If 90 sec is important and you can move some talents around I think that’s a win.

[haughty mural]

With delivered doom I agree but fate intertwined doenst actually loose you smth or ?
It gets a gain either way?

[lucid jackal]

Sure but in the context of raid, this is costing ST

[lilac stag]

vs DS copy pasta

[fleet wharf]

yea, having the ability to go between 2 min and 1.5 min is pretty huge

[haughty mural]

You cleave or you gain st

But I’m not smart

[lucid jackal]

What does more ST

[lilac stag]

and if those adds get deleted by Dev and MM you’re not handicapped but for a little bit

[lucid jackal]

30% duplicates to the main target

or 30% cleave

[hollow spear]

Why would you ever not play 90s? What do you gain by sticking to 120s?

[void ocean]

joins in listening to Outlaw guy teaching sub folks about assa builds 😄

[lucid jackal]

The point I'm making is that when there are NO TARGETS IN RANGE, fatebound does more damage

When you add targets, multiple damage sources are sent to aoe targets

You LOSE Prio damage when targets are added to the encounter

[haughty mural]

Yeah ok you are right

[fleet wharf]

but not necessarily raw damage lost right? just not very efficient at cleaving if you're full ST?

[lucid jackal]

Encounter design

[haughty mural]

Im stupid

[lilac stag]

imagine on OAB as melee you have to help your range kill the solo add. HELLO FB. Hahah

Oh wait our range needed help. Hahahah

[lucid jackal]

Its literally a raw damage loss. When you have 1 target in range, both delivered doom and fate interetwined do MORE damage to the main target

[random hare]

i liked fb in m+ abit in some dungs in ptr but its not good enough unless the kb fix makes it op

idk how the kb fix is gonna work

[hollow spear]

Yeah but it's not like your cooldowns get weaker if you moved to 90s or am I missing something?

[lucid jackal]

When you add a target in range, those damage sources are sent TOWARDS the adds instead of the main target

[void ocean]

they always do

melee can u pls help range to kill this barrel in narnia cause they also cleaved the boss

[hollow spear]

Isn't it just two more seconds of max stacks?

[lucid jackal]

They don't, but lets say for the sake of understanding, an encounter at 1:35 goes into a shield state where the boss takes 99% reduced damage until 25 seconds pass.

[random hare]

4 it should be but idk

[lucid jackal]

having a shorter CD doesn't actively help you

[random hare]

its mainly just nice for the reduced cd honestly

rest is w.e

[lucid jackal]

And if the margins are slim, it might even be a DPS gain

[random hare]

makes you send a kingsbane on every single pull in M+

[hollow spear]

Yeah but you could just sit on it then

[random hare]

kinda op

[lucid jackal]

Because if the sims are assuming FB is getting +1 cd usage, meanwhile DS is -1

[random hare]

fb prob gonna suck in raid ye

[hollow spear]

Yeah I follow that logic guy

[random hare]

fb m+ thing is just a overcooked cook that is unfinished yet

[lucid jackal]

Yes, but if the sims are assuming you get, lets say 3 deathmarks on DS, and 4 on FB, if you end up losing 1 on an encounter due to intermissions or whatever else, it's not "Actually" gaining a cast

[hollow spear]

My idea was just that DS is still pretty cooked for raiding purposes

[lucid jackal]

does that make sense?

I mean DS is probably bad yeah

If u want rogue cleave, u play sub/otl

If u want rogue PURE ST NO ADDS ON THE FIGHT AT ALL, u probs play sin fb

Thats my assessement

I think playing sin for "raid cleave" is just wrong

[hollow spear]

Makes sense

[lilac stag]

I think ultimately we’re saying the same thing and we are going to see some shifting as the tier goes on. While those adds maybe up for too impactful of a time for the first 3-4 weeks of prog. For the vast majority of CE type guilds as the tier goes on those adds are alive shorter and short windows. Trying to pad on Gally as sub right now is where they fuck did the adds go.

[lucid jackal]

Im just saying these pure ST sims are deceptive

[random hare]

idk i think sin has rly good cleave with coldblood

[hollow spear]

Kinda what it feels like rn. Still would like to see where the 90s fatebound sim ends up

[solar charm]

!fuu

[random hare]

it actually cranks with kb

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

Good? Maybe, better than sub/otl? I don't think so

[random hare]

better than those ye prob not

[lucid jackal]

Cuz the question always boils down to "whats the best spec for x fight"

[lilac stag]

but do you have better boss dmg while still not being useless

[chrome palm]

fatebound might crank on fractilus with 3min prism in execute

[lilac stag]

Is the question

[lucid jackal]

and if ur going to play rogue, on a fight that wants cleave, wouldnt u rather just play sub/otl?

Maybe rogues job just isn't to cleave this tier

[fleet wharf]

Isn't splatter also a pretty good cleave?

[lucid jackal]

and U just hope every add instantly expodes and u just play FB sin