subtlety

[vale pine]

4% buff

[graceful crown]

is not bad tbh

we are MM now

:o

[vale pine]

def. isn't

buffs are good

and as the top specs get nerfed

the field levels out

also assassiantion is likely to play fatebound more

even tho they kinda avoided it before

[slate marlin]

only st

[vale pine]

yes

[slate marlin]

still shit in m+

[vale pine]

fatebound is only good with low targets

[carmine portal]

idk if u saw my question earlier but what made you want to go from simply a player to a theorycrafter/class guide writer?

[slate marlin]

the one place where mark management is shit

is the place ds has no alternative

[carmine portal]

just an obsession with numbers or was there a lack of content so you filled the void?

[wheat edge]

the tierset + hero talent is cool for ST, it just still has the problem that it reverse-funnels and gets fucked as soon as a add enters the equation, so it will probably be played on first boss + the pure ST boss but otherwise its kinda fucked ye

[graceful crown]

subs sim much more at dungeon slice even without the last change of shadowblades?

didnt see this coming for s3

[vale pine]

basically, the diffrence is how interessted you are to get the best result

[stoic reef]

Whats a reverse funnel

[vale pine]

e.g. I started out just dipping my toes into simulations with minor small improvements before mid legion

[wheat edge]

it does less single target if there are adds involved

[brisk onyx]

what is "pre pull shananigan"

[vale pine]

but for those who played legion, they know that there was a bigger subtlety rework in the middle

[wheat edge]

and then also does less to the adds cause our cleave is based on the damage dealt to maintarget

[vale pine]

using symbols pre pull

[brisk onyx]

🫡

[vale pine]

so you get 2 sperchargers

no disoriented cheese

[maiden oar]

did they patch predisorient

am i freed

[stoic reef]

But for what reason does this happen

[vale pine]

would be another one with minor impact

[simple dragon]

it's me or this season balance seems to be really bad for now?

in general i mean

[maiden oar]

oh ok im not freed

[void ocean]

Its u 😝

[vale pine]

but back to the question of what made you come a TC

[graceful crown]

sadly still, even with this changes our utility is still on bias

[wheat edge]

there are 2 different talents in the hero talent tree that change if targets are nearby

[vale pine]

the mid legion rework had very specific gameplay changes which needed a lot of work to implement in the simulation

and there was nobody who would make these changes

[simple dragon]

it's there any recent dps tests that can be checked?

[stoic reef]

Oh I see

[vale pine]

so, i did start writing a new apl from scratch to implement and test out the rotation

and later merged it with the baseline apl

[carmine portal]

And you've always been focused on Sub?

[vale pine]

well yes and no

e.g. in BfA

so after legion ended, basically the next xpac

mystler and me did create the baseline apl for all 3 specs

[lilac stag]

So i was only off .1%

https://tenor.com/view/crushed-it-gif-18087987023179949748

[vale pine]

well 4.1 with cheeses

so it depends

[lilac stag]

I said .2 hah

[vale pine]

i did also untangle a lot of the aoe implementation for assassinaiton back then

we all 3 (mystler, koji, me) did optimize for exsanguinate

[lilac stag]

Still seems like we’re on the bottom end of sims but I’m also not surprised

[vale pine]

just to be clear, other TC's just joined later so me not mentioning whispyr, solo, or others is simply a fact of history

i mention it because some people did complain the last time i went over it

[north schooner]

fuu hates solo and whispyr confirmed

[carmine portal]

Love stories like this, the bridge between player and analyst (Theorycrafter or any other "numbers" roles) is so interesting to me

[vale pine]

But basically, what made me get from "helping out in discord, answering questions/etc" to Theorycrafter was the drive to know what the best rotation is and my methology was always to be open and try to involve the community as much as possible

wowhead guides came later, i got asked to take over from someone else who wrote it before

i am also happy we have more people who can contribute now

[carmine portal]

Theorycrafting is always better when the contribution is pooled, goes for any game

[vale pine]

everyone does it diffrent

so its very subjective

some classes/specs do it more hidden

[alpine wraith]

sub needs to do lots of on field testisg

[vale pine]

some have more or less contributors

[alpine wraith]

so most of us feel better being more open

[vale pine]

i don't think any class or spec is that diffrent

[alpine wraith]

because of how krangled implementations have been

[carmine portal]

good to know the story tho, there's a monk player I like who is sort of the same. Not the rank 1 brew but easily has the clearest, most concise guides and opinions informed by a devotion to improving the spec, not just their own gameplay

[steel zinc]

so supercharge right?

[steel zinc]

tomb big changes

[vale pine]

yes only supercharger, not disoriented

[hollow spear]

Probably roughly 5.2 mio with predisorienting

[vale pine]

disoriented would be another small boost

[vale pine]

yes, dfa basically

i also wrote a guide on a extrernal website back then and on ravenholdt iirc at one point

as mentioned, we now have more contributers

[alpine wraith]

disorient was like 0.8

[steel zinc]

how much roughly?

[alpine wraith]

or smth

[hollow spear]

But it's fair to not include disorienting, because it's unreliable and there will only be a miniscule amount of players who actually use that

[alpine wraith]

yea it is fair

[shadow snow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[honest yacht]

I know this season is soon over but has anyone else have the m+ build actually both sim and do more st dmg than the ST build? Because that's the case for me

[hollow spear]

Wonder how hard dks, hunters and destro lock got hit

[void ocean]

let me check

[steel zinc]

depending on the build you do 95% of your st in aoe settings

[hollow spear]

If you have to delve into their discords: good luck

[carmine portal]

Looks like it's going well !

[hollow spear]

Uhdk also got hit, no?

[void ocean]

only in DKs

[steel zinc]

need warlock nerfs

idk how they dodge them

[void ocean]

i rarely go down to uh channel 😄

[hollow spear]

They got nerfed on demo

Which was the outlier

[vale pine]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aNJMG77wW4eAEZZRi1ybiV

[lilac stag]

So still PTR DPS champs 🏆

[vale pine]

both supercharger and dissorienting are about 1% worth

[void ocean]

uh dk didnt even get pins yet

[chrome palm]

2.6% for a prepull seems like quite a bit damn

[graceful crown]

the fuck

[chrome palm]

not unexpected

[vale pine]

eleem is typically fast

[graceful crown]

like fdk is now not dealing dmg

[hollow spear]

Uhdk was outsimming fdk already before changes

[vale pine]

these patches are typically to unholy eu hours

[hazy breach]

Nah it still does a lot in aoe

[graceful crown]

yeah

i was being sarcastic

its completely playable spec

[vale pine]

so i am happy that we have someone who is awake during the unholy hours^^

[graceful crown]

and still has those graps

that gonna be really useful in m+

[hollow spear]

Eleem burning the midnight oil

[void ocean]

using raid buff in m+

[steel zinc]

What is everything?

[vale pine]

eleems pin is 3 AM my time zone

[vale pine]

both combined

[steel zinc]

I am cooked now 1+1.4 =2.4 why 2.6?

[vale pine]

so the buff + both pre pull shananigans

because stuff interacts with each other

[steel zinc]

ok

ah makes sense

imo supercharger stuff should be included

since its nothing fancy imo

lots of classes press sth prepull

[vale pine]

supercharger is easy to do

[alpine wraith]

yea

[vale pine]

so ye

[haughty mural]

Desorienting not a much

[steel zinc]

yeah but baseline without expert mode

[haughty mural]

*so

[vale pine]

disorienting is a bit finicky

so i typically don't include it

[steel zinc]

how did you implement disorienting?

[vale pine]

wdym

[steel zinc]

What line do you need to add in the header of expert mode

[vale pine]

you just add the proc before the fight starts

so you get the extra use

its very simple

[steel zinc]

how do I do that in disorienting strikes to simc?

Sorry noob

[hollow spear]

I wonder what the time cutoff between wm and tfd is if you include predisorienting

Must be 8 min +

[alpine wraith]

you add 2 unseens ready

as if sec tech was used

but it is not on cd

[vale pine]

raid_events+=/buff,buff_name=disorienting_strikes,first=0,cooldown=999999```

[alpine wraith]

there

[hollow spear]

@vale pine does your predisorienting sim include the vanish opener?

[vale pine]

no

its the regular opener

[alpine wraith]

it is a bit more but not hugely

[void ocean]

oh pls lets not go to vanish opener again

[vale pine]

but if you want to vanish in the opener, should lead to the same result

[alpine wraith]

it is a bigger gain with pre disorient

[steel zinc]

fuu said that opener is not a gain

[hazy breach]

The vanish opener is another 0.6% or so, assuming you have disorienting up

[alpine wraith]

but nothing crazy

[vale pine]

^

[alpine wraith]

dayum

[steel zinc]

w00t

[vale pine]

its not a lot

[hollow spear]

3% prepull

[chrome palm]

i will pog my champion for 3%

[alpine wraith]

the days of pre mfd dust kekw

[hazy breach]

Its only better if you have pre-disorienting

[steel zinc]

so its strike evis vanish strike flag rupture and then cds

[void ocean]

so if i manage to sec tech with my dying breathe, i gotta vanish in the opener

[hollow spear]

Predisorienting single handedly carrying our spec

[void ocean]

shouldnt flag go after first strike

[hollow spear]

I think so

[void ocean]

thats how it used to be at least

[vale pine]

its a bit of a pita to do on prorgess

[hollow spear]

Strike flag rupture vanish strike evis

[vale pine]

but the vanish opener without should still be dps neutral

so its not like you lose sth

[void ocean]

would it work if i teleport out of the raid to sec tech smth

[chrome palm]

no it resets when you change instance

[hollow spear]

Depends on how you wipe. If raid explodes immediately you're murked. If it's a slow wipe you can use defensives and pray for cdr.

[chrome palm]

BUT

prepull stonks up because we have infinite rat mobs to attack on bosses 5-6

[vale pine]

you can just secret before you whipe

so you keep it

[alpine wraith]

ahaha will be funny explaining it to people

[void ocean]

i will do my best

[alpine wraith]

so you SEE your raid going belly up?

SEC TECH MY DOGGGG

[steel zinc]

also nearly every guild needs atleast 1min of wipe recovery

[alpine wraith]

time to make some clips

[steel zinc]

so 1min cd is nothing

[vale pine]

don't overwhink it ^^

[void ocean]

alright guys wipe... luv just jump... LUV...
sir i have 15 sec cd on sec tech

[hollow spear]

Wouldn't be surprised if they removed predisorienting

[honest yacht]

Okay, well I seem to sim 101% of my St in AOE settings

[chrome palm]

they really need to but also allow us to bank 2 UBs for our opener

[alpine wraith]

ehehe

[hollow spear]

I'd like that

[hollow spear]

Which builds are you comparing?

[steel zinc]

go into detailed profile

Full Report

[hollow spear]

Maybe it's the finality bug inclusion

[carmine portal]

What mastery% are ppl at atm

[carmine portal]

whats ur ilvl?

[chrome palm]

684

[carmine portal]

wtf am i doing im at like 107%

[hollow spear]

Are you Hachadino

[carmine portal]

im only 664 tho so grain of salt

[keen dome]

I assume you are around 25%+ Versatility, Messer?

[steel zinc]

I have 20% versa

no buffs nothing

[chrome palm]

i am apparently the only crit gamer here

[keen dome]

Hell yeah crit gaming

[carmine portal]

[keen dome]

Secondaries are so whatever

[steel zinc]

Why crit

I like mastey more

[lilac stag]

Too much haste dog

[vestal escarp]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/449080055893590017/1280746470815043646/456.gif

[lilac stag]

Cursed daggie

[tepid trellis]

crit is a useless stat ong just crit 5head

[keen dome]

the only stat that matters is speed

[hollow spear]

@chrome palm You need more crit and less mastery to buff your builders more

[keen dome]

it lasted the entire season

[chrome palm]

i got the big crit neck on like my 2nd myth vault

[steel zinc]

master of desaster

[lilac stag]

I need more crit to make up for lack of CB so I can enjoy vigor

[vestal escarp]

If you get to 100% mastery you dont need crit

[chrome palm]

and it sat in my bags for weeks until i could spare the crests

[vestal escarp]

They're already doing doible dmg

[keen dome]

Just run pacemaker and have it proc at the ideal moments

it's that way

[chrome palm]

but i really like my gear its cozy

i run pacemaker too

i love crit

[steel zinc]

if you have 100% mastery you have 100% control over your character thats how this works

[keen dome]

What if you have 101%

[chrome palm]

ong im ready for tea build fam

[steel zinc]

you break the game

[hollow spear]

But only if it's exactly 100% mastery

[keen dome]

damn

[carmine portal]

[keen dome]

More versa

[carmine portal]

no

more mastery

i AM the master

[steel zinc]

See clear cheater here GM GM found him

[keen dome]

haha

[vestal escarp]

30% versa is comfy

[hollow spear]

Tea build, I'm coming for you

[void ocean]

if u have more than 100% u start mastering the mastery itself

[vale pine]

don't let yourse fool by stats like 50% crit chance, i crit every time

[keen dome]

At one point I was sitting at 29% versa and like 70% mastery lmao

[tepid trellis]

[void ocean]

u become - metamaster

[keen dome]

more speed

[carmine portal]

i am no longer the master

[chrome palm]

how do you guys have so much mastery

[steel zinc]

See he has orange color meaning he gets to have 10% more then everyone

[vestal escarp]

bro?????? The versatility rationg?????????

[carmine portal]

Gre Gus Wou enchant goes crazy on the head

[chrome palm]

if i put on two rings with 7k mastery each i am not even at 100%

[vestal escarp]

[keen dome]

Cry Rad

Cha of Lee Fan is a 6th century poet

[tepid trellis]

it knows my language too

[carmine portal]

haha

[keen dome]

Haha

[opaque valve]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

you run the crit neck

and crit hands

and crit feet

[tepid trellis]

i can get more mastery

[chrome palm]

nvm i figured it out

[tepid trellis]

ive got crit haste gems on

[keen dome]

damn

[steel zinc]

you changed gear?

[graceful crown]

im gonna go 40% crit this s3 60% mastery 2% haste 0% versa

[tepid trellis]

lemme go press flag and HoC real quick

[chrome palm]

wowhead dot com said to use mastery i recrafted a few pieces 😇

[keen dome]

legend

[iron obsidian]

Guys, would it be worth it to craft embelishments for all 3 specs before the new season starts if I have a mountain of crests?

[chrome palm]

well your crests are being turned into fairy dust on august 5

so you might as well

if you have an embellished cape

you can craft something else with an embellishment

[iron obsidian]

no im not making cape

which reminds me i need to move all my embellishments off my boots anyways

[keen dome]

Why didn't I put an embellishment on my sword.

[chrome palm]

we can go further

no mastery neck gg

[iron obsidian]

guys i might also have to start making a weap as my first craft now

[graceful crown]

messer, vers 0 or u trolling

[iron obsidian]

in a new guild with another rogue 😭

[tepid trellis]

thats just my regular ass gear

[sly shore]

It is currently 11:17 in the UK and sims haven't been updating this is very disappointing and rogue tc is getting incredibly lax you hate to see it

[hollow spear]

I'm a versatility addict

[tepid trellis]

shut it dev evoker

[drifting fable]

+1

[vale pine]

lovely gear

[drifting fable]

@tepid trellis Excited to play assa?

[tepid trellis]

am i playing assa?

news to me

[drifting fable]

ALL of us are

[graceful crown]

the less vers a sub rogue has, the more i respect him

a true ninja

[hollow spear]

Not touching assa

[native zodiac]

its a sub tier bro

[tepid trellis]

im not playing rogue next tier

[drifting fable]

wtf

[sly shore]

[drifting fable]

what are u playing

[steel zinc]

thats cool

[iron obsidian]

how many damage amps are there in the raid?

[hollow spear]

With his willie

[steel zinc]

whats so bad about it?

[sly shore]

that is my alternative character actually

[steel zinc]

4/8

[iron obsidian]

i dont get insta daggers anymore, i have to fight for them

[graceful crown]

why, its gonna be meta

[tepid trellis]

[graceful crown]

BUMMMMMMMMM

[marble sail]

our talent choices wont really change for s3, is that correct?

[iron obsidian]

it means i have to craft a weap now maybe

[steel zinc]

you craft anyways asedence dagger so idk

[sly shore]

he's gone to class worse than rogue

banter

unless...

[steel zinc]

you craft anyways since crafted offhand is really good for sin anyways

[sly shore]

He plays ele

[drifting fable]

what class bruh

[iron obsidian]

i was never crafting a dagger first because i was only rogue and i would always get the agi dagger

[hollow spear]

Who's the rogue slave then Stealthi

[steel zinc]

it has to drop you know?

Our first dagger droppt in raid like in week 4 or 5

[sly shore]

colour has a 2nd rogue

[steel zinc]

so when it was irrelevant

[iron obsidian]

i mean yeah it does, my guild was lucky

[sly shore]

i think

[steel zinc]

So your a high roller? 😄

[tepid trellis]

who is colour?

[sly shore]

oh fuck ofc

whatever guild ur playing in now

myth or myst or any other 4 letter adjective

[drifting fable]

wow i missed so much stealthi lore

holy shit

[iron obsidian]

its why i never crafted either guild killed the bosses that drop the dagger week 2

[drifting fable]

boring tho i liked watching you prog on rogue

[tepid trellis]

one of these 3 skip

[drifting fable]

jesus

thats fucking grim

LMFAO

[alpine wraith]

ehehe

[sly shore]

guess what I'm playing skip

[drifting fable]

hm

One of the broken op warlock specs that flew under the radar

[sly shore]

yeah sub rogue

[carmine portal]

[drifting fable]

Me too!

[carmine portal]

sub BROKEN news to me!

[drifting fable]

unless fury warrior is broken OP and we need a 2nd one

8D

[alpine wraith]

big sub situation

[sly shore]

atrophic applier

[graceful crown]

sub meta s3? POG (utility)

[sly shore]

damage amp abuser

[alpine wraith]

we can move dmg between phases too with prism kinda

[drifting fable]

just wait until u have to play assa on all the important fights because the game sucks

[carmine portal]

Is the Vers proc on the Disc belt any good?

[drifting fable]

8D

[alpine wraith]

crit is better for the belt

[drifting fable]

fuck i forgot i need to upgrade my belt on all my characters

god damn man

this game blows

[alpine wraith]

you can do t1

[carmine portal]

yeah it's super quick

[vale pine]

you going to play sub next season?

[tepid trellis]

probably

[vale pine]

nice

[steel zinc]

How about sin? Looking also really good on lots of fights even better then sub

[frigid prawn]

I read that sub rogue doesnt change at all to s3? So I can just practise the rotation now aswell?🤔

[steel zinc]

Yeah 99% stays the same

all 3 specs

atleast thats what I did on ptr some minor changes

[tepid trellis]

i dont see it being better

[steel zinc]

all first 3 bosses alread yin mythic

but yeah you can also play sub

[sly shore]

3rd boss has adds

can't play fatebound

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[native zodiac]

[alpine wraith]

tornado gaming boss

oh no

jk

[carmine portal]

this is a +9 btw

[alpine wraith]

damn

elite gamers over here

[hollow spear]

Some casual sexism in the morning

I love online games

[graceful crown]

they were doing +21s overnight

[drifting fable]

hey dude cold blood is a massive change

and completely shakes up the rotation

we all love MASSIVE changes.

[sly shore]

(you can press buttons 15s earlier now)

[drifting fable]

very fun that all 3 specs play the same for the whole fucking expansion

[leaden prairie]

kieroooooonnnn

[drifting fable]

awesome!

well

all 2 specs

[leaden prairie]

oh skip

hi

[drifting fable]

because i havent spec'd into outlaw

in so long

[leaden prairie]

toguht you left wow

[drifting fable]

yo

no lol

just havent been that active here

because farm sucks

and im bored

[hollow spear]

He's a sub main now

[leaden prairie]

i see

[sly shore]

farm does suck

frfr

ong

[graceful crown]

[drifting fable]

but awesome raid coming out soon!!!

[sly shore]

no kizzy

[drifting fable]

hype!!!

[leaden prairie]

i like farm ..

[drifting fable]

dreadful

[steel zinc]

ok that was like 6 hours ago

[sly shore]

hello zac

[steel zinc]

still same

[drifting fable]

I will try pushing keys next season

maybe that will reignite my love for wow

[leaden prairie]

nice !

r1 rogue fr fr !

[tepid trellis]

wdym we got the massive and innovating change of pressing storm between coups now!!!

[drifting fable]

[weak flame]

any predictions for next tier

[leaden prairie]

i missed you kieron

i forgot to unblick you yesterday

so i didnt know were you went

[drifting fable]

dude im telling you the specs are so insanely changed its so fun and not repetitive

[leaden prairie]

i was so confusion..

[leaden prairie]

ye bro

sub like every season

or ?

ping me if im wrong

[tepid trellis]

yeh it goes hard

[weak flame]

im talking about raid

[tepid trellis]

i hear outlaw is meta every season

[sly shore]

hard to not notice such a prolific yapper spamming your screen with "1 blocked message" so true

[vale pine]

XD

only during blades tho

[weak flame]

idk maybe assa will shine

[native zodiac]

Wait whats the reason for storm after coup

[dreamy badger]

One of the dagger specs for sure, quote me

[sly shore]

more coup dam

the extra dm stack is enough

to make it worth buffing the 2nd coup

[native zodiac]

Realy wtf

[sly shore]

did they fix the tier set though

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[sly shore]

they did

[alpine wraith]

what bug

the 50% on first one?

[sly shore]

buffing first coup

[alpine wraith]

instead of second

ah

yea

[tepid trellis]

To not waste unseen blade procs

[sly shore]

that too

huge rotational change incoming

[alpine wraith]

biggest change people wont expect

[graceful crown]

i want to see how this is a buff or what

[alpine wraith]

you need to sometimes pool energy/sht on coups outside dance

[graceful crown]

now thats working

[plucky parrot]

sorry potentially dumb question, is there any benefit to the vanish opener if you don't have pre-disorienting?

[alpine wraith]

to be able to coup twice

nope

you can rng a thousand cuts reset

but it is unlikely

[tepid trellis]

Just gotta wait and see if its a 20% increase to the 60 that is nimble or of its flat 20%

Thats the real question

[graceful crown]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

also how it works with armor

[plucky parrot]

ah so it's mainly for the chance of proccing another blade

[graceful crown]

im curious, can be a huge boost on cd windows or just a 2% increase

[plucky parrot]

assuming no disorienting

[alpine wraith]

also because if you have pre disorient you begin first dance with coup ready

[plucky parrot]

yeah I get it for disorienting

[alpine wraith]

almost

[leaden prairie]

ye same

sub

[native zodiac]

So you just storm until the tierset coup goes off?

[plucky parrot]

but was unsure if there was another reason if you didn't have disorienting up

[alpine wraith]

if you dont have disorient it is whatever

[tepid trellis]

Its Just during blades tokin

Coup storm coup

[native zodiac]

Ah alright, guess ill hit a dummy a bit later

[weak flame]

hmm idk there are some amp during exec

[plucky parrot]

does that rule change in aoe? like let's say you're sending a dance outside of SB and you proc coup, would you still be fine with wasting unseen procs or is there value in storm?

[tepid trellis]

if there is enough targets to get full cp from storm id storm

[plucky parrot]

yeah that's what I've been doing on ptr

but unsure whether the ub strike has more value with nimble

[tepid trellis]

well this way you get the dmg from it still

but dont waste the stack it gives

[nova cairn]

Ahh so

On law you would double coup

But sub if you have enough targets you storm then 2nd coup?

What do you do in ST

[tepid trellis]

in blades

storm

outside of blades

ignore

on single target

[nova cairn]

just double coup

or build to 6/7 then 2nd coup

[tepid trellis]

coup storm coup

[nova cairn]

Ye but outside blades

[tepid trellis]

u cant press it back2back as sub unless you get shadowcraft

you just play as normal

[plucky parrot]

yeah I was just wondering if the difference between getting it inside of blades vs not was relevant, since you delay ub by storming

[nova cairn]

ahh ye sorry

you don't have relentless

[tepid trellis]

yes we do

u dont

[nova cairn]

I mean err

Ruthlessness

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

Its a large boost to cds either way

[tepid trellis]

i know what its called

u clearly didn't ruby

fake outlaw

player

sm

h

[nova cairn]

sm

h

[north schooner]

wrong R word

[hazy breach]

But if its 72% (which is what i would expect) then its pretty much neutral, maybe slightly positive

[tepid trellis]

yeh fuck u rubert @nova cairn

[graceful crown]

yeah, after 5% nerf on nimble...

[nova cairn]

Fuckin racoon

[hazy breach]

Compared to being 65%

[graceful crown]

they needed to nerf nimble right blizz?

ofc they do

[plucky parrot]

surely it's 20%

the "matching percent" wording is so oddly specific

[lilac stag]

one does not fuck the raccoon.
the raccoon fucks you.

[nova cairn]

[graceful crown]

:grab:

[plucky parrot]

vs. "nimble flurry does 20% more damage during blades"

[graceful crown]

magic

[plucky parrot]

[lilac stag]

More reason to use BP

[graceful crown]

yep thats mega copium

[lilac stag]

idk they seem to have a hardon for BP and no clue how to fix aoe

[hazy breach]

Well its because blades is 10% in pvp

[graceful crown]

we're gonna see a new bar at details with nimble shadow damage :o

[hazy breach]

Thats probably why they worded it that way

[hazy breach]

No

[graceful crown]

F

[plucky parrot]

touche

i will remain copeful

[frail swift]

does sub have any kind of future this expo

[hazy breach]

Idk either way is good

[plucky parrot]

yeah

it's good that the damage is going into cds anyways

[north schooner]

you know, they could have cleared the confusion by saying 72/80% in PVE and 66/72% in PVP. Dunno why they left it ambiguous like that

[haughty mural]

🩹

[lilac stag]

When it doesn’t work as expected they don’t have to fix it

[north schooner]

huge brain move tbh

[lilac stag]

normal corporate gray area

[plucky parrot]

morally grey

[umbral inlet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

does this change the target count at which we BP during blades

i'm assuming evis gains a bit more value

[tepid trellis]

we do not know

need the changes to hit the server so we can check it

[alpine wraith]

yea it is 50/50

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/war-dogs-50-50-fifty-fifty-war-dogs-50-50-war-dogs-fifty-fifty-gif-213195682196877878

[slate marlin]

its so you dont waste ub stacks

you cant build them while coup buff is active

so u storm

[placid shuttle]

What trinkets will we use next season

[nova cairn]

@tepid trellis

Do you still use atrocity UI

[alpine wraith]

we will likely use prism

and then a passive one being antenna/cosmic hunter/pacemaker etc

[slate marlin]

huge w for the one guy alone that works on rogue

(sarcasm)

[tepid trellis]

yeh

[nova cairn]

Are there any WA's you use for sub that aren't included in atrocity pack

[tepid trellis]

no

well in the current version yes

but in the coming one no

[nova cairn]

Okey cool tyty

[swift tinsel]

That reminds me, I should put coup conditions in the FW one

[lilac stag]

DPS cloak stonks 📈

[alpine wraith]

i find funny they changed the boots

[lilac stag]

[alpine wraith]

so people would not froth over lfr and N etc ones

[swift tinsel]

What’d they do?

[native zodiac]

Makes sense

[lilac stag]

EoN for boots for everyone

[north schooner]

when did they fix s3 4p? yesterday?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, shadowed finishers still doesn’t work with it tho

Checked last night

[north schooner]

let's not get crazy

[swift tinsel]

Baby steps

[north schooner]

the 5s buff is still buggy unfortunately

[haughty mural]

So just standard atrocity UI ?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah was really hoping they’d change the EB temp buff

[tepid trellis]

the wa's themselves yes, they layout of them no, ive moved stuff around and changing colouring scheme

[north schooner]

I don't get what causes it to show up delayed, it doesn't seem consistent

[tepid trellis]

my guess is ptr bs

server is garbage

[swift tinsel]

^

[north schooner]

could be

[swift tinsel]

It’s the same with coup refund thing, I rarely notice it on live but on ptr it was really bad

[alpine wraith]

coup refund is kinda depending on SHT so it can happen either way

on ptr it does seem krangled a bit more because of latency

[north schooner]

even if it launches like that you have the alternative of having a timed WA show on coup cast, it's just annoying having to do these kind of hacks

[swift tinsel]

Ye I have like 16ms latency on live so I’m spoiled

So ptr has been agony lol

[alpine wraith]

best you could do is have a coup WA with 3 lines for the hits

so you know you can get a refund on those 3 ticks

maybe someone could make that one

im low brain power on WAs

[swift tinsel]

Same, been bashing my head against the wall with the double UB one and I’m scared to ask for more help in WA discord lol

[alpine wraith]

problem with UB too is that it takes a bit to know it has procced

shit buff EB can take up to 1 sec to update

aaaaaaaa

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, I had to pull the Event Trace info and that’s annoying af to read through/catch on ptr server unless I fly to Narnia

I can get the trigger state updater to accept the code Buds wrote for it but it still doesn’t trigger the sound

[lilac stag]

blizzard cd tracker will save us

[hollow spear]

Looks like it made big improvements, to be fair

[alpine wraith]

they are working on it

bigg

[vestal escarp]

Bigg work

To reinvent the wheel

[grand wyvern]

I am dumb can someone eli5 why we do coup storm coup only during blades?

[lilac stag]

yup! the fact that we need to jump through hoops for trying to track something is fucking dumb. needed more sarcasm I suppose.

[alpine wraith]

to not waste an unseen blade stack

from disorienting

or normal resets

and you are going to cap cp either way

and you get a DM stack

[hollow spear]

I understood your sarcasm to be directed at the cooldown tracker and I think it's going in the right direction

[alpine wraith]

well they make things hard to track for no reason

[lilac stag]

Yeah it’s the game abilities not the effort of the tracking

[alpine wraith]

we still cant track resets from thousand cuts

why?

[hollow spear]

The fact that unseen blades cannot be tracked is obviously dogshit, no matter which tool you're using

[lilac stag]

the tracker stuff is wins

[alpine wraith]

because f you

if they make a good baseline system to hook into it would be bis

maybe that is why they want to work on it

likely the 1 button rotation and other things are helping the investor numbers

[lilac stag]

why UB is as cooked to track as it is makes zero sense from a gameplay or implementation stand point

[alpine wraith]

so they can allocate more recourses too

i hate that UB is not just a button

and you have X charges

[lilac stag]

something something button bloat. casually looks at enhancement shaman keybinds

[swift tinsel]

Lmao dude trying to bind my enh in a way that makes sense is actually aids

[amber blaze]

yo guys,
what trinkets do u run on ptr for sub
and what talent build is lookin good now for m+?

[swift tinsel]

Prism + one of the crit passives or sigil

[lilac stag]

Reminder get your WA to actually allow you to pickup totems

[amber blaze]

and how to use trinkets?

[lilac stag]

fucking big brain dev coding there

[grand wyvern]

Ok but why don't you do it after every sec tec, is it because you generate full CP with SB?

[amber blaze]

i mean prism

[swift tinsel]

Ah yeah the cancel Surging bullshit

Too

[amber blaze]

any macro possible?

[swift tinsel]

Macro to blades but skip on opener

[alpine wraith]

with blades it is ok because of the full cp but normally you would waste shadow techniques stacks if you stormed in between coups

so you take the L and strike

or stab

[lilac stag]

You’re skipping middle no?

opener would be back up for 3min

[swift tinsel]

If you want you can, but that’s two blades with no trinket

[grand wyvern]

I see thanks

[swift tinsel]

Possible it’s worth to leverage if the fight deems it worth

[lilac stag]

pretty sure it was getting used as a 3min

[swift tinsel]

Otherwise if you play it like a 1.5min you have 8-9 stacks

[lilac stag]

Least of my worries

[alpine wraith]

rn it is used every 1:30 mins

[lilac stag]

At this point

[alpine wraith]

without using on pull

[swift tinsel]

Forge was getting played as 3min

[alpine wraith]

but you can change it a bit

very cool we can move dmg through phases now

if we cant

even if it is not as powerful as spymaster

[swift tinsel]

Reallllllly hoping for more trinket adjusting today or tomorrow

[alpine wraith]

could be possible

but unlikelyt

[lilac stag]

if we taunt them enough maybe it’ll happen

[swift tinsel]

They did delve ones yesterday

[alpine wraith]

they are more going into boss things

[swift tinsel]

Havent really touched raid

[amber blaze]

and what about belt?
is it still worth it?

or just pick any vers/mastery belt

[swift tinsel]

Belt gets replaced

The robot will tell you when

[lilac stag]

710

Ish

so don’t worry about it

[hazy breach]

No, prism is the spymaster one

Thats used with blades everytime

Forge is the 2 min one

[lilac stag]

So skipping on pull or no?

[hazy breach]

Doesnt matter

[lilac stag]

so safe to macro

[swift tinsel]

You’ll have one stack for pull so it’s better than nothing

[lilac stag]

And not confuse people.

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[lilac stag]

Then why are we telling people to skip pull?

[alpine wraith]

it just does not have any stacks sometimes

or 1

not like it is skipped

[lilac stag]

when someone asks about a macro

And you tell them to skip pull

what you think that actually comes across as?

[alpine wraith]

yea it has 1 stack so it is whatever so you can macro it i guess maybe have a separate bind just in case you want to skip soemtime

[lilac stag]

it takes what 2:30 to fully stack? 1 stack ain’t changing anything on pull

[alpine wraith]

y it is whatever most for in between moving you would want 2 binds

if you just use on cd macro is fine

what i dont like is the max stacks being so low yea

[lilac stag]

but that’s a much better explanation than just skip pull is my point.

[alpine wraith]

true

[lilac stag]

hey there’s a 3 min burn phase with an amp. Skip the 90 second use

Need a separate keybind

[alpine wraith]

our worst nightmare would be if there was an amp like 2:30 in

[fathom adder]

prism is treated as a 3 minute trinket?

[swift tinsel]

No

[alpine wraith]

not really

[swift tinsel]

Forge is

Unless there’s a fight where you want a juiced 3min flag at the expense of a smaller 1.5

[lilac stag]

I can already sense we’re gonna need trinket FAQ with pretty pictures @vale pine

[alpine wraith]

ahaha big video situation

[swift tinsel]

Flow chart time

John Madden Feral Style

[hollow fox]

question: do we ever use shiv as sub rogue whether or not we're talented into it?

DPS-wise

im assuming to dispel enrages only

[alpine wraith]

yea only to dispel enrages

[vale pine]

i can look to create some s3 graphics on the weekend maybe

[hollow spear]

Make it very simple

Very very

If sub ends up actually becoming fotm rogue (for raid) , we'll need it

[plush roost]

are the balance changes on ptr yet?

[shadow snow]

No

[swift tinsel]

Not as of last night

[plush roost]

Frigg

[vale pine]

nope, ptr is still on the old build

we might not see a new build

[swift tinsel]

Said they’ll be rolling out soonish

[vale pine]

but lets wait and see

ohh

if so, nice

[hollow spear]

SoonTM

[clever delta]

Are we playing double on use

[wheat elk]

are the changes on ptr rn?

[hollow spear]

No

[plush roost]

nah

[swift tinsel]

Hotfix style iirc

[clever delta]

Or what you guys talking about

[plush roost]

pacemaker + netherprism

probs

[hollow spear]

Yeah

[swift tinsel]

Pacemaker/Antenna/Sigil all close

[hollow spear]

Void delve trinket got executed

[clever delta]

I did not mind double with dust back than

But duck that

[alpine wraith]

funnily enough the void delve trink might still be decent

just because of the sheer amounts of procs you can get in m+

[plush roost]

they nerfed it abit tho so im kinda shy on it now

[alpine wraith]

well not a bit

they smashed it into the ground

but still 13k mastery

not that bad

[lilac stag]

I still kinda wonder if you can find use for the versa one on add fights

but I haven’t been on to play with it.

[alpine wraith]

which versa one

[swift tinsel]

The dot one?

[lilac stag]

forgot name, it procs on target deaths

shadow dmg + versa

[hollow spear]

Euh, cannot remember that one

[lilac stag]

let me see if I can find it… on mobile

[alpine wraith]

interesting

maybe for outlaw

[nova cairn]

Naa it’s not great

[alpine wraith]

at 710 it would be like 3k or smth right

not that big

[nova cairn]

What is the next trinket behind prism for you guys?

On use

[swift tinsel]

Forge

[nova cairn]

Which one is that

[swift tinsel]

The 2min

[nova cairn]

Ahh

15% hp one

[alpine wraith]

yea it is prism>forge>pvp trink

then a passive one

although silly forge and prism

is only 1 % or so behind

[nova cairn]

Ohh pvp trinket

So maybe some pvp farming in the new season then

[swift tinsel]

Unless lily gets Hail Mary buffs

[alpine wraith]

yea likely for first week

it is also champion so you can upgrade it to base +9 when you drop 2 trinks

[nova cairn]

I can’t wait to get farmed in arena

[swift tinsel]

Farm boxes

[alpine wraith]

usually with the epic bgs and seasonal quest you get the conquest

[nova cairn]

War mode boxes?

[alpine wraith]

not even need to enter an arena

[nova cairn]

Ohh good

Cus fuck arena

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

[fleet wharf]

I vaguely remember seeing a guide to farm up boxes, anyone got a link?

[random mason]

Comp stomp and epic bg is fun too

[swift tinsel]

Sadly comp stomp was last week

[nova cairn]

Is there a outlaw mallet or sim for the trinkets

[swift tinsel]

Great for pvp transmog honor marks

[nova cairn]

Bloodmallet I mean

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

Trinkets kinda in flux atm so probably not yet

[nova cairn]

What ilvl will the pvp trinket be

And it’s 1min cd right?

[swift tinsel]

Champ track so 701? Or something like that?

And yeah 1min

[keen dome]

1/8 Champ is 681 iirc so 701/704 sounds about right

[lilac stag]

Turn on WM. Join raid. /endguide

[tulip gorge]

So are there going to be any rotational changes next season?

[lilac stag]

Minimal

[swift tinsel]

Yeah looks like 704 for 8/8 champ

[nova cairn]

And it’s just conquest points

[lilac stag]

No

You have to upgrade with pve currency

[nova cairn]

Surely not

[chrome palm]

you must expend your runed crests

[lilac stag]

PvP items don’t need upgrades for PvP. They need pve currency to upgrade their use in pve.

[nova cairn]

Okay well it’s only runed crests I guess

[lilac stag]

so yes, you’re using crests and valorstones

[chrome palm]

its carved too muahahahaha

[nova cairn]

I may only upgrade to 4/8

[void ocean]

we gonna have again those free crafts

with just wethered crests and no spark

this season they were 629 ilvl

[lilac stag]

@vale pine assuming it’s still bunked. FAQ going to need a why doesn’t my Cold Blood work (after playing FB Assa)

[vale pine]

lets see if they fixed that bug

[alpine wraith]

ahaha one day

[lilac stag]

Since now there’s actually a reason to play FB assa

[void ocean]

facebook?

[alpine wraith]

we wish

[lilac stag]

FB wow is more wild than the forums.

[brittle plinth]

Which of you was playing DS that they felt they needed to nerf a spec no one plays lol

[void ocean]

we baited

its all me, i wrote several times here "DS is back, baby"

[chrome palm]

they caught on to us sandbagging DS sub this whole time

[brittle plinth]

Hahahaha

[slate marlin]

the only sub nerf im happy about

[brittle plinth]

Best psyop ever

[slate marlin]

deserved

[maiden oar]

whats behind pacemaker if you cant get a myth one?

[brittle plinth]

For s2?

[maiden oar]

s3

if they dont do dinars and your vault sucks

[void ocean]

.

[slate marlin]

well trinket tuning is still a hot mess, probably best to wait

[brittle plinth]

Why you worried right now

[vale pine]

we won't play it so whatever

[brittle plinth]

Just let it launch

[void ocean]

..

[maiden oar]

im just curious is all

[brittle plinth]

Bloodmallet does a great job of this specific ask

[alpine wraith]

time to make a joke video DS is op guys and see if they nerf the tier set again

[brittle plinth]

Just gotta wait for the data

[brittle plinth]

Bro

Big brain

But low key we lost the 5% nimble but got shadow DMG during sb + 5% baseline buff

[chrome palm]

grab the fake details weak aura

[brittle plinth]

That's not bad

[void ocean]

chatGPT, generate me a ptr Salad Bar video where ds sub tops dps for 1.5M

[brittle plinth]

I got hopium

Someone doom me down pls

[void ocean]

its joever

[slate marlin]

no time for dooming

shadowblades thing is either good, or fucking good

[void ocean]

dude, no

https://tenor.com/view/shh-trouble-lend-your-heart-quiet-dont-talk-gif-17702835

[slate marlin]

mybad mybad

its shit

its bad

[brittle plinth]

Ya wtf

[slate marlin]

we will play deathstalker

[brittle plinth]

SB buff is nonsensical

[slate marlin]

need more buffs

[runic trail]

We'll break the game and play sub fatebound

[brittle plinth]

Death talker amirite?

[void ocean]

i even set DS now on Live, in order to properly welcome such glorious build

[brittle plinth]

Lol.

Man I know I will have to learn this bullshit hero tree

We memeing but something smells off

[slate marlin]

0% chance i play ds

[void ocean]

I'll play anything that puts me above damn fotm rerollers 😄

[hazy breach]

I mean they fixed a bug which meant it was getting stronger so the nerf is probably just to offset that

Maybe deathstalker is strong for pvp, idk

[alpine wraith]

yea you play DS for pvp mainly

although now with double coup maybe trickster is also good

if only evis was not nerfed to hell and back

[wheat elk]

can you turn a mythic m+ bost to the cantrip boots for the 50% buff to cloak with catalyst charge?

if you dont mythic raid

[alpine wraith]

nope

but you can get normal or hc boots

the diff is not omegabig

[carmine portal]

Bcus the boots are not part of the tier set so

Catalyst dont work

[jaunty heath]

@fervent carbon here is the sub discussion

[haughty mural]

[void ocean]

[vale pine]

lol

[vestal escarp]

The sub DS tier nerf was quite comical

No flame just funny

[lilac stag]

BP buff wold have been better comedy

[alpine wraith]

any day they buff snd and rupture

imagine

[crystal bone]

pinned msg

....

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty mural]

[amber blaze]

is it rly actual build that simmin better then prev season build ?

[maiden oar]

is there any situation with new tea build in m+ where you try and make sure it doesnt auto proc (st only? aoe only?) or do you just macro it with dance and forget

[vale pine]

yes

[steel zinc]

Sims dont account for first dance really

like first dance is the strongest m+ talent depending on dungeon

I think fuu can explain better why but you can also vanish during trash packs and get first dance back early

[alpine wraith]

yea you will play first dance now on st too

kinda funny

how weak wm is

[hazy breach]

Nah just macro away

[maiden oar]

wahoo

i want to disable auto tea so bad

[clever delta]

Is the method guide updated for s3

[alpine wraith]

ahaha next week will be fun

you bet i post mine on monday

and they change things

[rain ingot]

time to change my Assa Talent to Sub : )

[tribal blade]

horrible choice for blizz to make tea proc at low energy

horrible

when 2 specs use it for the mastery buff

[void ocean]

imagine trying not to proc tea between dances

[clever delta]

Do we need another 5%, will we scale like shit again ?

So many questions

[void ocean]

like literally would have to move away from the pc

[tribal blade]

i think in aoe it's very unlikely you go low enough in energy to proc tea anyways

in ST much more likely

[void ocean]

between dances?

[tribal blade]

yeah since you build full CPs with storm

and then finish>get energy back

with 200 energy pool

[void ocean]

ye but if we finish with BP...