Ye
#subtlety
hazy breach
slate marlin
No replicating shadows
hollow spear
I'd bet that Charrend would have done more than 8 mio with the DB build
slate marlin
ngl tsking pv...kinda hurst
steel zinc
I'd bet that Charrend would have done more than 8 mio with the DB build
yes ofc he would
steel zinc
nope
plush roost
kk ill try it
hazy breach
Well PV is completely useless
Like unironically useless
If you manually disable it in simc you wont see any difference
slate marlin
Ye i know
hazy breach
Its only used for pathing
swift tinsel
Should swap spots with inev
hazy breach
Well PV should be redesigned/massively buffed
slate marlin
i guess you could take pv point into inetability and dark brew for deeper daggers but im going to guess dsrk brew is very strong in that build
plush roost
Eleem
how bad is it
to not have windfury
with your no shadwocraft
well guess ill find out this key LOL
hazy breach
I mean without shadowcraft the value of melees goes down
Dslice says its 4%, 8 target cleave 2.2%, so pretty similar to the regular build
plush roost
mmk
steel zinc
What is the m+ tornado build for live ?
tulip gorge
are we going to have a different build next season?
steel zinc
only some minimal adjustments
in m+ for sure or?
vale pine
for st
bright sundial
sry question whens s3 start?
vale pine
we will not paly finality
slate marlin
sry question whens s3 start?
aug 12th for na, 13th for eu
bright sundial
ok gotta ty
slate marlin
patch launches on the 5/6th tho
vale pine
sry question whens s3 start?
bright sundial
what ok im dumb that means m+ and raid doesnt start til 12th?
slate marlin
Yes sir
bright sundial
ok ty again
slate marlin
So fuu you think the dark brew build will the play in m+?
stuck linden
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
steel zinc
we will not paly finality
sad faces. So rotten it is?
or just what you simmed in the sheet
vale pine
ye
probably just that
for st
for mythic+, probably something similar to what we use now
steel zinc
I think since lots of fights have adds might rotten be more worth the PE or?
like get fw up etc
also how long has the fight to be so wm pulls ahead of first dance?
like some fights for sure will be 8min+
vale pine
wm and tfd is very close
stuck linden
I was hoping sub wouldn't need tornado :/ in m+
steel zinc
how much %?
left ledge
According to myself with no statistics to back this claim, it’s about a 1% loss
vestal escarp
About three fiddy
plush roost
Well gang, I had aug, and we wiped to the third boss of halls
but no shadowcraft
kinda does crank
sullen hare
Wait a minute are you suggesting I stop dooming for five minutes and trust the tcs? Do you hear the words coming out of your fingertips??
slate marlin
what was your overall at that point?
plush roost
like 10m before all the wiping
vestal escarp
That must feel like shit everywhere
left ledge
Well Shadowcraft is whatever in aoe
opal birch
is sub bis s3 for rogue? [bisssss]
slate marlin
it always is
warm marlin
it is weird sometimes with s3 tier just pressing 3 finishers in a row while having unseen blades ready to spend
slate marlin
until they buff assa
hazy breach
it is weird sometimes with s3 tier just pressing 3 finishers in a row while havi...
Strike with 2x unseen blade proccing actually does comparable damage to BP
In total aoe damage done that is, obviously it does a lot of prio
plush roost
How about st?
its worse but i had aug so hard to tell
hardy galleon
any ideas what rogue specc seems best for ST/raid atm? Been practicing sub but still got time to learn assa or outlaw if sub is fugged :D
sullen hare
any ideas what rogue specc seems best for ST/raid atm? Been practicing sub but s...
🔮
They're still fussing with sims but if you learn sub right now you'll be in a good position because not much is changing in the next season rotationally
hardy galleon
cant argue with that i guess :D
chrome palm
any ideas what rogue specc seems best for ST/raid atm? Been practicing sub but s...
One benefit to playing subtlety is that you won’t be playing assassination
warm marlin
They're still fussing with sims but if you learn sub right now you'll be in a go...
does he know (all rogue specs got pretty much 0 changes)
chrome palm
Sub is premium
lucid jackal
any ideas what rogue specc seems best for ST/raid atm? Been practicing sub but s...
Sub rn
hardy galleon
niice
bleak night
chrome palm
It doesn’t do that??
hazy breach
Because youre not hitting 6 or more targets
Tornado does not work with blades no
Because if it did we would use it on ST
So thats what they did
swift tinsel
plush roost
NO FUN ALLOWED
swift tinsel
had to nix that quick
chrome palm
Nevermind then I take it back
swift tinsel
functioned that way for a lil bit before the cat was out of the bag
shell willow
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
hazy breach
I dont think i have that listed as a bug
swift tinsel
nope
hazy breach
Because they explicitly made it work that way, so its the intended interaction
hazy breach
Yes
swift tinsel
five cd's in the opener
hazy breach
Nado stinky gameplay wise
swift tinsel
flag, blades, sod, dance, nado
north schooner
and 
steel zinc
flag, blades, sod, dance, nado
its piano play
tame terrace
i hate nado delayed combo points
lucid jackal
I just hate that it costs 60 energy
tame terrace
what if they made nado into a channeled ability that gave u a combo point every .3 seconds
for 5 seconds
swift tinsel
this man is a literal menace
delicate current
this man is a literal menace
tettles worse
vale pine
lol
swift tinsel
tettles at least embraces the boomkin meme, kalamazi straight delulu
delicate current
nah tettles knows boomkin isnt dogwater he's just gaslighter extraordinaire
vale pine
meanwhile we have shrödingers (subtlety) Rogue, you know its bad but nobody plays rogue so it might be good and you never know unless you test
vestal escarp
Nah we test and it's bad
faint basalt
tested it and it's good
north schooner
test or not doesn't matter because the rogue devs are busy working on a massive cook that they will announce at gamescom in a few weeks 
placid elk
some big hopium here
lucid jackal
Odds are rogue gets big changes on the new expansion. It'd be very weird for the spec to go this long with basically no changes
I think the only changes all 3 specs got all expac was what
Coup charge removal, and ks?
lucid jackal
Which I mean, I'm kinda fine with overall because I love the current state of rogue
lucid jackal
oh and Dust removal
Oh true
swift tinsel
plus supercharger
warm marlin
Supercharger
lucid jackal
Oh right supercharger too
swift tinsel
but that was super early on
faint basalt
actually about sub rogue right now - better dont change what works. It now in good state
swift tinsel
well, relatively early on
lucid jackal
Ya
Still a relatively small set of changes over an entire expac
Thankfully I love the state of rogue rn but
swift tinsel
plus hero trees almost completely untouched
lucid jackal
I'd be shocked if midnight has nothing.
warm marlin
I don’t want big changes to any of the specs really just small things and fixes
lucid jackal
We're kinda due
warm marlin
Hopefully we can get those
swift tinsel
streamline ds so it actually makes sense with our kit
north schooner
they don't need to reinvent the wheel but there are many pieces being held by duct tape right now, especially in the hero trees
left ledge
I think the only changes all 3 specs got all expac was what
For sub it’s been coup, dust, and idk if you can consider this a change, but RS doesn’t fuck your combo points anymore
Those are basically all the major sub changes
lucid jackal
Yeah mean more specifically actual changes, not bug fixes
lucid jackal
In total for rogue all 3 specs it's been what
Supercharger, dust, coup charge, and killing Spree
I think that's it
left ledge
Yeah
steel zinc
yeah thats what we got this exp after beta
but I just want the bugs fixed
actually the tierset doing what it says
north schooner
surely they fix 4p next week
runic trail
Just tweak the hero talents and I'm happy. I like rogue, the hero talents feel like somebody poured mayonnaise on top of a nice steak.
left ledge
I’d expect midnight to give rogue somewhat of an overhaul even if small
But I’m not very optimistic
Rogue hero talents have been somewhat of a failure
swift tinsel
idk I like most of trickster
swift tinsel
just like I said, the redundant buffs/debuffs
left ledge
Or deathstalker
lucid jackal
I like most of trickster, I like Deathstalker for sin
leaden plover
anyone else scared they rework sub and it does not feel the same anymore?🥲
runic trail
Deahtstalker for sin needs an easier means of moving the mark and then I'd like it. Thats my main gripe.
left ledge
If sin didn’t have target lock built into them like with caustic
I’d bet they’d hate ds too
But yeah ds is ok on sin rn
lucid jackal
Deahtstalker for sin needs an easier means of moving the mark and then I'd like ...
Sin already can't target swap effectively even without dsm
swift tinsel
ye spatter pretty much negates the worst part of dn
well, makes it more bearable compared to sub
runic trail
Sin already can't target swap effectively even without dsm
Its more for bosses like court where I hated messing around with the mark.
lucid jackal
Yer
runic trail
Sitting there not able to envenom for like, 15 seconds otherwise I wouldn't get DN back up wasn't a fun time.
Its less egregious now that sin runs VV
left ledge
Trickster imo is the only non failed one out of the three
limber dirge
is there loads of target swapping next raid? havent really seen any fights tbh
left ledge
It benefits sub and outlaw in fun ways and isn’t overly restrictive
pulsar hemlock
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
steel zinc
is there loads of target swapping next raid? havent really seen any fights tbh
for your sanity you wont play anything with deathstalker
limber dirge
obviously
steel zinc
yeah also sin no deathstalker like on council fight where the freaking boss flys away or plattform switching on nexus king etc
like the whole raid is just silken court for assa but worse
runic trail
steel zinc
I played during testing dh and they have a mark too but you can refresh it way more often and that was already a pain
steel zinc
yes its just omega poorly designed
we used to have mark for death but that had like 30 sec cd which is fine. Idm if the hero talent capstone would be an actual ability but that aint gonna happen
runic trail
Target swapping with sin is terrible as a baseline, the mark is just hell to deal with when its bosses like court where one boss just goes, 'I'm leaving and I'm taking your mark with me, good day'
runic trail
And you can play around it by holding darkest night but then you're sat there for like 10-15 seconds sometimes like, 'WELL, OKAY THEN'
limber dirge
hoping for some form of rework in midnight
steel zinc
hoping for some form of rework in midnight
Must happen they will 100% look at all the hero talents played over the exp and should work on those who had near 0 play
runic trail
Must happen they will 100% look at all the hero talents played over the exp and ...
If the fatebound 4 piece goes live as it is then...
steel zinc
like fatebound perse is not bad
its just the game is so different then fatebound
like it has 0 ability to do aoe
0
runic trail
At least fatebound can guarantee the capstone in opener with the 2pc, which removed one of my gripes with it.
Straight up doing a chunk less damage because 'lol unlucky with coins' is a bad feeling.
north schooner
I wonder what they plan to do with hero talents for the next expansion. Adding more points sounds like it would create even more bloat. We'll know soon enough 
runic trail
The tierset is great at a concept, the execution is scuffed
steel zinc
Even if whispyr will hate me I see a world where this is played on fractilus
pure st patchwork is fatebound
sullen hare
Whispyr is just cranky all the time and I can understand that
runic trail
Whispyr is just cranky all the time and I can understand that
Having seen the state of the sin channel sometimes, I can understand why
steel zinc
Its normal most alt rogues play sin because its pretty braindead in raid
clever holly
so i started playing sub 2 days ago and now i run into an issue that is when i aproach the second set of cds i sometimes get secret tec up again (third time first two i go with both dance and symbols) but got no dance charge and im not sure if i should just send it naked or with a symbols charge
or hold it
runic trail
so i started playing sub 2 days ago and now i run into an issue that is when i a...
My understanding is, if you can send it and get it back in time for your next cooldown set, then use it.
If not hold it for your cooldowns
clever holly
ahh yeah when is that xD in fuus guide it says to just hold it when your cds are around 20 sec away but watching that many things at once whilst learning a spec is puhh
north schooner
it's a very minor optimisation, if it's overwhelming for now then just save it for your CDs
sub's damage outside of its CD windows is very low
runic trail
Yeah, get your basics down, then work on optimisations is probably the better suggestion.
north schooner
better lose a potentially tiny amount than affect your CDs
clever holly
so the rule of 2 times between first cds and once between the next one "stands"
north schooner
yes 2 sectecs for your shadowblades window, and 1 for non-shadowblades dance
jaunty heath
@fervent carbon
graceful crown
they only thing i hate about sub is with bl, is nearly completely useless
sub should have a talent that transforms a % of haste into mastery
:o
lucid jackal
sub should have a talent that transforms a % of haste into mastery
And now we're a pi spec
lucid jackal
Wouldn't it be interesting to require pi to do effective damage?
No?
I don't think so lol
graceful crown
ah no, i mean
the same as now but with a talent if u want that converts haste into mastery
optional
we have talents that suck like a lot, so a change wouldnt be bad
mighty citrus
talents are overrated anyway, as everyone is only playing this one (sometimes 2) builds per season
steel zinc
remove pi
mighty citrus
its gives you the illusion of choice but in reality if you want to do good dmg, you dont really have a choice
north schooner
remove talents
graceful crown
haha
lean cradle
back to mop talents?
lucid jackal
Idk how people say this about the new talent trees
They open up specs a lot
Outlaw has had like 6 different builds and setups this expansion based on how open ended the talents are for example
Same with sin, there's like 3 different good aoe builds that all have strengths and weaknesses, and you can strip away st, for aoe at variable % levels
lucid jackal
What
vale pine
also lets stick to subtlety in the discussion
what talent variaty is there on subtlety
lucid jackal
Subtlety talents aren't ideal
vale pine
case in point
lucid jackal
There is a difference in saying "the talent system sucks because there's no diversity it's all illusion of choice" and "subs talent tree sucks because it isn't as flexible as other specs"
tepid trellis
what talent variaty is there on subtlety
as they said in lord of the rings "one ring (talents) to rule them all"
lucid jackal
These are two worlds apart
lucid jackal
its gives you the illusion of choice but in reality if you want to do good dmg, ...
Let's ask then. Do you mean sub rogue specifically or across all classes?
vale pine
makes a lot more sense if its about the spec and not a "optimal state"
as in theory, more = more variaty
but people for a good reason say that this isn't the case for most specs
slate marlin
A lot of talents are very inconsequential tho
Builds are defined by a few talents and pathing
lucid jackal
A lot of discourse on twitter for example recently has been talking about how "the new talent system sucks"
tepid trellis
my take on it since the beginning has always been that its an illusions of choice and by that i mean for the people that wanna do the absolute best, there isnt really a choice
vale pine
^
mighty citrus
my take on it since the beginning has always been that its an illusions of choic...
this is exactly what i wanted to say
lucid jackal
Yes but the open endedness of it allows for new builds to emerge much more dynamically
mighty citrus
sry for my poor english
vale pine
its lovely that you like to defend the system, but people have a good point
lucid jackal
Outlaw and sin have like 20 different builds across both specs
People have a shit point imo
random comet
My take on it is that blizzard has offered the player base more than ample choice but we as a community are so bricked up on minuscule simdps increases that WE remove any “meaningful” choice
vale pine
lets investigate this
graceful crown
its obvious that some talents are much better than others, and blizz are just ignoring the shitty ones
graceful osprey
The classic talent or the one like in legion?
lucid jackal
He means the mop ones
slate marlin
but i do also prefer the old talent system
ye i liked it more, but i ofc understand the need to make things new in wow
lean cradle
but i do also prefer the old talent system
wchich one? the 3 nodes choice?
mighty citrus
the rows with 3 choices
this was nice tbh
lucid jackal
if there is such a big variaty, lets look at the top 10 r.io outlaw rouges
There is a level of granularity that exists in the current talent system that can't exist in a mop style talent system
chrome palm
but i feel so sophisticated when i drop nightrunner and iron stomach for improved crippling poison
lucid jackal
Taking or not taking gs
Deciding for more st, and less aoe in the different sin setups
slate marlin
I would like the new tslent trees more if they iterated more on them
lucid jackal
I mean they do, just not for rogue other than supercharge
Which tbh, supercharger was fucking huge
vale pine
i was bored after this, but it turns out everyone runs the same talents
hazy breach
my take on it since the beginning has always been that its an illusions of choic...
Illusion of choice is kinda nice still
vale pine
if there are 20 valid options
tepid trellis
so gotta deal with what ive been given
vale pine
and all are good
tepid trellis
Illusion of choice is kinda nice still
yeh i dont mean it as its a bad thing
vale pine
we would see more variation, opinions will make a lot of diffrence
graceful crown
^
lean cradle
i was bored after this, but it turns out everyone runs the same talents
woah, there is a difference in chinese name guy in hero talent tree
tepid trellis
korean
vale pine
its as disengenious as telling subtelty rogues the talent system is good because there are other specs it might work out on
tepid trellis
close one
lucid jackal
Fuu do u literally not read what I type
Do we need to reinvent the English language or something because you just always read past what I'm typing
lean cradle
mb korean, my eyes tired (yes i can see difference in asian letters style) just didn’t pay much attention on phone
lucid jackal
You can think the new talent system is good, and also think that subs talent tree is bad
You can also say that the old talent system wasn't exactly great for sub either
vale pine
you can similarly say the old tree could have been good
lucid jackal
tepid trellis
MoS vs tornado was goated
vale pine
which is the same line of argument
lucid jackal
Are we pretending this was good?
vale pine
you have 3 decisions and 7 tiers
lucid jackal
I CBA
vale pine
so have a lot of variation if each talent tree is higher impact
the point you are making is how it played out, not how it could be idialized
slate marlin
Werent a lot more things baseline?
vale pine
yes
lean cradle
shit i would go back to it
tepid trellis
they were yes
swift tinsel
Yeah they had to be
lean cradle
(i can just need to go play classis)
slate marlin
i do have to agree that new talents have added some very cool talents
like crackshot
lucid jackal
The point I'm making is despite subs talent tree being shit, the system itself is better overall
And it's not like subs old talent tree was that much better for it
delicate current
Are we pretending this was good?
People shitting on the new talent system have rose colored glasses about the old talents and how you'd never change them across expansions
lucid jackal
Sectec being dogshit, alacrity being dead, mfd and vigor being shit, subterfuge being bad
mighty citrus
but having less talents ideally makes every choice more impactful no?
slate marlin
I think they had it easier to work on specs with old talents, which i also prefer
lucid jackal
but having less talents ideally makes every choice more impactful no?
No these talents were just as low impact as the ones you and other ppl complain about right now
vale pine
what makes the system better?
delicate current
but having less talents ideally makes every choice more impactful no?
If you live in a world where they get tuned/worked on sure but they didn't
lucid jackal
what makes the system better?
It allows for more granularity and the ability for new builds to emerge
vale pine
like lets look at the start of DF
tepid trellis
No these talents were just as low impact as the ones you and other ppl complain ...
just to poke hole into that, thats not true, these version fo the talents were actually quite alot stronger ( just to nitpick)
vale pine
subtlety lost mobility, defensives, utility
tepid trellis
numerically stronger
vale pine
and got about exactly what it had in terms of talents
lucid jackal
numerically stronger
Sure but many of these talents were still like, maybe 1%
vale pine
which means, the overall increase of granularity
lucid jackal
Some were legit just almost worthless
vale pine
did seem like a placebo
lucid jackal
Wasn't mos just shit? But sectec was a dps loss and tornado did nothing
tepid trellis
subterfuge and sectech was dead
vale pine
The problem with the old system was the same as with the new one
tepid trellis
MoS actually made you able to not pool for dances
vale pine
tuning and design was many times not good so you had a small amount of combinations
haughty mural
Dark shadow row
vale pine
because 3 x 7 talent combos have still a lot of unique combinations
vale pine
shadowcraft would have been baseline in the old system tho
the new sytem lead to a lot of problems too
north schooner
people went with the cookie cutter build with the original talent system, with the mop system, and now with this system 
vale pine
which was discussed in many of the podcasts from the bigger content creators
it created power creep to a massive degree
graceful crown
its much harder to balance with this talent system
vale pine
healers suddenly put out 4x the healing
graceful crown
i guess?
graceful crown
yeah
vale pine
because its the only reliable way to deal with the power creep
which is funny because blizz did move away from oneshots in the past because its a bad aproach
lean cradle
do you think we will continue with hero talents and talent tree we have rn into midnight and forward?
leaden prairie
i was bored after this, but it turns out everyone runs the same talents
ok tbf
its not that true
hazy breach
Theyve explicitly said hero talents aint going anywhere
bleak night
they've already said hero talents are going forward
leaden prairie
i change my util talents a lot in m+
hazy breach
do you think we will continue with hero talents and talent tree we have rn into ...
So yes
bleak night
they'd have to massively backtrack to change that
bleak night
maybe after the last titan
hazy breach
What do you swap to zac, ive only ever bothered to swap between short shroud and bigger slow
Whats the third one
vale pine
do you think we will continue with hero talents and talent tree we have rn into ...
we don't know, but it is likely that they stay for the near future
@leaden prairie so how many of these talents do you switch between
more than 6?
as that would be about as much as the old system offered
hazy breach
Yep
lucid jackal
This also isn't accounting for assassination being very granular in its aoe builds
leaden prairie
but i think these talents are also good for like, you get diff builds that can emerge
i think for assa for example
lucid jackal
U can play full aoe, hybrid, and then trade different levels of aoe for different levels of st
leaden prairie
its often the case
where from one tier to another you have a lot of little shitter talent that changes
idk its fun tcing at least
vale pine
i mean counter argument
if you can fine tune everything
it makes it difficult to design challanging content
leaden prairie
What do you swap to zac, ive only ever bothered to swap between short shroud and...
i dont need short shroud in the dungeons i play, but ye its bettwehn, no energy cost kidney and mega slow /anti heal iron stomach
i have had times i played short shroud but i dont need it anymore
north schooner
as that would be about as much as the old system offered
they would have to be in the same row for that work. The issue of the mop system was that you had 7 choice nodes, so some things which are possible with today's system, wouldn't be possible if they were exclusive choices in mop's system
vale pine
and if thats the norm, its even worse if specific classes or specs don't have this freedom
lucid jackal
Idk how being able to take -0.5% AoE for +0.2% st is "making it hard to make hard content"
vale pine
if the new system is designed to give everyone the 20 talent combos you mentioned
solar charm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
how many classes and specs actually reach that?
e.g. ret paladin
lets open wowhead talents
lucid jackal
Ret paladin has a lot of utility you can decide to take. Or not take
Ret paladin is also the poster boy of "easy spec"
And despite that it's class talent tree has a lot of choices
vale pine
i mean its just the first thing that came to my mind
lucid jackal
Between bop and bop cd, sac, sac cd and effect, blind, turn undead, better healing, better defensive
These all can't exist in an old talent tree system
leaden prairie
rogue could be the same
they just decided they wouldnt bother
i think the talent choices are good when its not half assed
lucid jackal
Fuu I know you aren't this dumb
You know that granular utility talents, and a general wowhead default suggestion are different right
vale pine
feral druid
seems like one
so what you are saying is
the talent tree fails outside of utility?
how much diffrence in gameplay/output does a talent need to make to count as new "build"
like is switching from wm to shadow focus
a new build?
even tho it makes 0 impact
sly shore
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
graceful crown
IMO, i would prefer a talent system that have choices like a spec (assa, rogue, sub) and subspec for each spec (idk for sub, ninja or shit) that changes your gameplay with predetermined talents for each one.
instead just talenting into your top 100 m+ guys
vale pine
i just think the new system created a lot of developement effort which does not increase the player experience.
Sure some specs got a lot more time from the dev team and might have more control and decisions, but in the end most play a very similar build with small adjustments which mostly don't do much
lucid jackal
What about the entiery theory crafting process
vale pine
a lot of the same decisions could be made with the old system if talents ended up designed well
lucid jackal
The best outlaw raid build sprung up after a week of the raid
Combining new talents, with a tier set together
With a new rotation to boot
This can't exist with an old talent system
vale pine
well
lucid jackal
Not nearly to the same degree
vale pine
if you change a talent or spell balance in any system
you can create new builds and play styles
lucid jackal
It also does increase the player experience. A huge amount of players hated the leveling experience for all classes, cuz you would go 5-10 levels literally getting nothing
Ppl like spending talent points
graceful crown
i think blizz has a lot of fear of changing a lot of useless talents because they should have to balance everything again
vale pine
almost 100% of the palyerbase hated to level rogue
lucid jackal
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ROGUE
bleak night
they shouldve kept mop talents and put the dev time into housing
lucid jackal
I'm talking about wow
vale pine
its so bad, you had massive posts multiple times
lucid jackal
The video game
vale pine
nonono
bleak night
lucid jackal
World of Warcraft
vale pine
let me finish my argument
lucid jackal
World of Warcraft
vale pine
before interrupting
lucid jackal
Then don't say stupid shit
vale pine
if blizzard would be concerned about leveling
then they would have improved rogue leveling experience
because it is the #1 thing complained about in timerunning events
lucid jackal
But every class was complaining about the leveling experience
Every class had this issue
Every class had the issue of 10 levels of nothing
vale pine
you are the social media guy
lucid jackal
Into a passive point that gives you 15% movement speed, or leech
lucid jackal
Because the rogue leveling experience is especially shit
leaden prairie
!mute @lucid jackal please keep it civil
lucid jackal
I can't believe I need to get receipts of people complaining about the leveling experience with the mop talent system
The entire reason we have this talent system now is because people hated the mop ones
Specifically when it came to leveling any class in the game
lucid jackal
Are we aware that time moves in one direction
lucid jackal
As time goes on, people learn that systems come with pros and cons
vale pine
exactly
lucid jackal
One of the cons of the mop talent system is leveling from scratch sucks ass
vale pine
and thats why they noticed that the new systems brought more problems than they solve
lucid jackal
The biggest con I hear about new talent systems is this vague allusion to "illusion of choice"
vale pine
so thats why you see complains on reddit/twitter/whatever
i mean talents might as well don't exist
golden harbor
People have complained about illusion of choice forever, mop talent system specifically. Each tier is like, Single Target talent/Aoe Talent/Random garbo
vale pine
because the main decision this xpac was hero talents
vale pine
well, baseline did see close to no change
lucid jackal
People have complained about illusion of choice forever, mop talent system speci...
People who have never tcd anything in their life: "yeah idk this talent system doesn't leave a lot of choice"
"here's a new build you can play that's 2% worse"
"yeah but why bother bro"
vale pine
i don't remember many complains about choice in the past
outside of "this talent sucks"
which, is exactly what you mention here too
tame terrace
cookie cutter was a common conplaint
lucid jackal
Illusion of choice has been a buzzword for literal decades
tame terrace
if people want choice then wed have to move to super granularity closer to POE
graceful crown
derp when u need KS for trickster as outlaw, i dont see that as a good decision tbh, hero talents should have included different gameplay styles not just more dmg if u use some skills
swift tinsel
Or they flesh out talent trees better so they’re like sin where you can build out based on the damage profile you want
Which they could do, if more dev time was given to them
near fog
Mop also unlocked a lot of the old cata talents as passives and gameplay improvements as you leveled. You can see the spell book right now. Most of those passives and feelings of improvement just kinda got removed as time went on baked into how it worked. So you still feel like you earn something in mop but feel less like you are in say shadow lands. Even with the same talent system.
graceful crown
but its normal, it would need a huge mount of time to balance
vale pine
they are already months into dept on their time budgets
graceful crown
they need to try to keep it simple as possible
near fog
I know this is a reply to a few minutes ago been speed reading to catch up
swift tinsel
New tree system should conceptually allow that better than a mop-style tree
Like fdk and breath vs sf builds
Or commander/superstrain uhdk
There’s def been winners with the new system
But it’s the exception in most cases
vale pine
most of the specs which got a lot of dev time won
swift tinsel
Yea
vale pine
but thats not sustainable
swift tinsel
Which we aren’t lol
vale pine
else we would have seen this done to every spec
swift tinsel
Not with the current approach
north schooner
well the new talent tree system is just a framework, if they don't take advantage of it you get sub's tree
vale pine
and blizz cuts jobs, so they ain't going to suddenly spend more time on things they did not do this xpac
swift tinsel
Well they’ve shown they can’t really handle it
vale pine
you see this across all the content
swift tinsel
But that’s shareholder capitalism for you
vale pine
less content is released in general, a lot more is throw away and recycle content
e.g. looking at this patch cycle
vale pine
- greedy emisary
- higher mount drop chances in old content
- visions
graceful crown
to keep it simple just watching this
graceful crown
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/latest-rogue-class-changes
or.. this one:
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/latest-demon-hunter-class-changes
you see the difference
its simple
slate marlin
Thats more bc higher ups want to shorten dev cycle once again, and once again it proves to be bad
vale pine
i just think its not good to idialize things
while its a nice positive feedback loop towards blizz
its not giving reasonable feedback for things that matter
we literally saw this in DF
where initially the feedback of rogue trees was
"BRO THEY ARE INSANE, PERFECT, SO MUCH CHOICE"
and i even got flamed for being critical of the choice
and only later once we had enough trees to compare
people realized, things sucked on rogue
vale pine
well not the feedback we had in here
people just got very excited for getting the tree
fallow nimbus
I don't think the 5 sub players were happy losing 1 step charge because dmg nodes
vale pine
neverless, this created a feedback in where the initial loop was only positive
so blizz might asusmed they would not need to spend more time on rogue
to then later need to see how they manage time
because once more comparison was there
feedback flipped 180 degree
fallow nimbus
It started with dance in the class tree. The downfall 
tepid trellis
graceful crown
zepziz
tepid trellis
the fart cloud
graceful crown
hahahahaha
chrome palm
remind me what fart cloud did
tame terrace
god that sounded awful
graceful crown
Shadow Mist: Gaining Stealth, Vanish, or Shadow Dance expels Shadow Mist nearby. Walking through Shadow Mist refreshes the cooldown of Shadowstep and Supercharges a combo point. Damaging finishing moves that consume the same number of combo points as your Supercharge function as if they consumed 7 combo points.
lucid jackal
so blizz might asusmed they would not need to spend more time on rogue
I think this literally affects it 0 btw
Ppl complained about new ks and it didn't get changed in ways ppl complained about it
vale pine
i don't know
like why did it take so long for KS to get changed
it was a beta problem
lucid jackal
I've complained about ks for literally. 2years
Do u think I needed to complain more?
vale pine
i don't know
but i now wonder
how many classes/specs the said high number of talent options have
tame terrace
it was a button u sometimes pressed but never felt integral to how outlaw worked. so it easnt as in your face as it is now. THOUGH rogues have been complaining about how it kills u forever
vale pine
because it might be that i am wrong
and its only subtlety with low amount of choice
so ill might ask more people about their class and try to get data on it
swift tinsel
Sub is def on the lowest end
bleak night
I mean it's certainly not only sub, but it's definitely one of the lower ones by far
swift tinsel
Iirc from perusing wowhead guides there’s more than a handful that can swap between hero trees between st/cleave/aoe with diff builds to go along with it
I’d have to check back for an actual list tho
hollow spear
Guy brought up sin for a reason
bleak night
Also classes that have made hyper specialized builds for specific fights
hollow spear
It has a lot of options right now
bleak night
Like boomkin and stix
swift tinsel
Sin is probably the biggest winner
hollow spear
The level of granularity sin has at this point is nowhere near what we had with the old talent system
We just got the short end of the stick again
bleak night
Like mop talents theoretically could have had a similar number of choices, but it was heavily limited by what talents were on the same row
mighty citrus
and its only subtlety with low amount of choice
the question is, do we really want choice in a system with 500 talents
imo its just overcomplicated stuff
swift tinsel
That’s a bit hyperbolic
mighty citrus
99% of players are to lazy to read the talents and make up their minds about it
so they just copy
what everyone is doing
make it easier for everyone
swift tinsel
Like imagine getting to meaningfully choose a damage profile based on fight
hollow spear
Not sure if that is a point
hollow spear
If you wanted to go down the "people are bad" or "people are lazy" route
You could just make everyone play a one button rotation and call it a day
Hyperbole à la bonne heure, but I didn't start with the hyperboles 😄
graceful crown
wouldnt be fun as a sub if u want to just do shadow damage or phys dmg? for example i mean, to adapt to your team
its like half-assed, we deal some shadow and some phys
swift tinsel
I mean personally I’d like to do all shadow damage, at least finishers
graceful crown
even with that its hard to get into some comps
swift tinsel
No split fw bullshit
graceful crown
yeah
graceful crown
we have a vdh and sham in our team, ok i change into pure shadow dmg
hollow spear
FW is just annoying as a talent, no matter which iteration of a talent tree we're talking about
graceful crown
we have warr and monk, ok phys
swift tinsel
I’d like to see fw gone but if it has to stay for whatever reason make it from Strike only, make it flat dmg% (no armor shit) and beef it up
No “BP based on X targets with fw depending on if you’re in blades or not”
Then you can play into nimble until you’re fighting 9 targets
If they’d actually make it work right
swift tinsel
I get the intention of lingering
Make you feel like you’re tapering off when dance ends
tepid trellis
its funny that those are on the same line as flag
swift tinsel
^
swift tinsel
The fact that blades nor flag are in the last gate
hollow spear
I don't even know why things like flag or shadowblades gave to be talents
hollow spear
You're never not taking them, if you're not called Lashga
hazy breach
I mean flag just doesnt make much sense, just toss it in the bin
Why do we have a 24s cd ontop of our 16s cd
With the exact same cooldown
swift tinsel
If they up the dmg or bake the mastery into blades you’d never miss it
I’d be totally fine merging them if it ends up as a 16sec buff
graceful crown
first flag should have 16s duration for blades
bleak night
The fact that blades nor flag are in the last gate
Relatively few specs actually have their main cd in the last gate tbf
graceful crown
not 12
graceful crown
idk sub talents have less logic everytime you see them
swift tinsel
Relatively few specs actually have their main cd in the last gate tbf
But most of them have talents that affect them there, if they aren’t there themselves
bleak night
Yeah but does that actually make anything better or worse
graceful crown
give a flag talent that improves duration for +4s for blades or something
like monk with sheilun
bleak night
Just remove flag
graceful crown
i mean, no
graceful crown
the first flag 16s
graceful crown
this
tepid trellis
it wold make flag 28 sec
graceful crown
but makes more sense than now, u get more buffs from mastery for the next 12s
hazy breach
What
tepid trellis
you cap it out very fast anyways
hazy breach
You get the mastery as soon as you spend any points, not after the first 12 are out
But ye it takes no time to stack it as your first sectech is 10 cp, then a coup for 15 and then your next coup is 12
So you very quickly get to 30
graceful crown
would be so op to uncap flag
stuck linden
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
lusty epoch
Yaay got CE today! 🫡 Blue log though so need to step up next tier
north schooner
I mean personally I’d like to do all shadow damage, at least finishers
make it shadowstrike (the damage type)damage and it becomes more flexible
swift tinsel
ye that works too
hazy breach
Shadow blades should make us do all shadow damage instead of adding an extra small hit
swift tinsel
absolutely agree
hazy breach
And if they also combine with with removing FW
So we can have big crits
That would be dope
swift tinsel
yeah that would be so much better than the FW hodgepodge we're saddled with atm
north schooner
ye that works too
they even did dual school damage for paladins, other traditionally mixed damage specs, and even warriors but somehow left sub out
swift tinsel
hey at least we get a poison
which should also be shadow dmg baseline or removed
or get a sub-specific one
north schooner
that's basically dark brew, it just does more things on top
hazy breach
DB is only rupture though, but ye
north schooner
it converts poison damage too though, or is it lying on the tooltip?
hazy breach
Sure, but thats negigible as fuck
north schooner
yeah all non-assa poisons are doing meme damage by design
and even DS is doing plague damage already so nothing to convert there
left ledge
if only DB converted all our damage to shadow
swift tinsel
it really is kinda criminal it isn't baked into dance and/or blades
with increased effect in blades
left ledge
you'd eliminate the need for exodia
naive zodiac
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
naive zodiac
lucid jackal
bleak night
lucid jackal
Getting ready for another sub tier
naive zodiac
outlaw tier 
lucid jackal
bleak night
swift tinsel
lucid jackal
Its kinda crazy that outlaw was able to keep up with OP specs on the cleave fights in testing
Despite outlaw ST being shit rn
chrome palm
Precise cuts is the only way this version of outlaw ever sees raid no?
lucid jackal
wdym
short radish
Precise cuts is the only way this version of outlaw ever sees raid no?
chrome palm
Precise cuts is the only way this version of outlaw ever sees raid no?
So true
random comet
You know I’ve been saying that exact thing recently
lofty path
listen all you have to do as an outlaw player is believe
and then cry when you inevitably get let down
bleak night
Precise cuts is the only way this version of outlaw ever sees raid no?
chrome palm
Outlaw has the most op button in the game wtf do you mean
By default it’s bound to “n”
Let’s you change to subtlety
hexed sluice
lofty path
outlaw is really fun until you are putting in double the effort for half the results
lucid jackal
well the fun should be the actual gameplay itself
lofty path
oh yeah 100%
idk it just feels bad I guess
don't have a good way to describe it, b/c I love playing outlaw
and I do well on it
random comet
The gameplay is gigafun to me but as with anything, can be tarnished by comparative performance
lapis hatch
well the fun should be the actual gameplay itself
Subjective
lucid jackal
Subjective
Obviously?
lapis hatch
Oh
bleak night
tidal marsh
lucid jackal
short radish
lofty path
tribal blade
Shadow blades should make us do all shadow damage instead of adding an extra sma...
i've thought this for a long time
hazy breach
Well see what they do in midnight, we just gotta rawdog this patch first
Hopefully some more buffs so i can play sub in keys too, that would be lovely
tribal blade
more BP buffs, gotcha
hazy breach
Either way surely sub is better than assa in dawnbreaker
First and last boss is just pure ST, rawdogging that as assa sounds not great
lilac stag
Either way surely sub is better than assa in dawnbreaker
Even after they add 5% nature dmg to 4p and aura buff the spec 8%
tribal blade
i wonder how impactful the sin buffs were to ST in M+ talents
hazy breach
Last i checked assa simmed like 3.6 ST in m+ talents
Which is, uh, the opposite of great really
It does go to like 6.4 with 8 adds though 
lilac stag
I wonder what MM sims in ST with m+ talents
tribal blade
yeah the damage you gain from more targets is wild as sin
civic lava
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tribal blade
sick route
mdt must have bugged out because we have no idea wtf is going on with the route lol
bleak night
idk that looks hype
hazy breach
Yes install and old version of mdt
Dont update it
Something in the update for s3 bricked old routes
And he aint fixing it
tribal blade
Something in the update for s3 bricked old routes
ahhh ok
lilac stag
no bp buffs yet
I think it’s time for a name change. Black Powder Enthusiast.
silent ruin
one button enjoyer here
flat hamlet
Is Sub good yet?
short radish
wait until 12.3
next stump
wait until 12.3
Shit we will have dragonflight classic before they rework rogue
short radish
double rogue reworks pog
lucid jackal
I think rogue sleeper decent
the damage amps are gonna be a difference maker
Ppl are gonna be doomer cuz the sims going around now 
lucid jackal
that one friend who doesnt like anything
short radish
if I doom now
i temper my expectations
and i wont be disappointed
or i'll be pleasantly surprised
supple kettle
If DF and SL are any indication, I think Sub Rogue will have a solid season. I think Sub always blasts off at the end of expansions and then when they tune season 1 they have to nerf it back down because there are only like 1,000 of us that play it competitively.
lucid jackal
How are those expansions indicitive?
short radish
well ackshully sub only popped off on the last tier of DF because of the bosses with damage amp.... oh wait a minute
supple kettle
Oh shit you’re right, I was thinking of fated. We blasted on Spechuler though.
Fated Sub was a beast.
Sub has a higher potential than most specs to kill a damage amp. Not locked to a 2 minute. It might not have the highest parse, but for prog the profile is hard to beat.
I’m just waiting for the inevitable merger of Symbols and Shadow Dance and Flagellation/Shadow Blades. I prefer them separate but in the world of killing weak auras and the death of Shadow Dust and movement DH it’s going to happen.
dry plank
Ppl are gonna be doomer cuz the sims going around now <:OMEGALUL:588187012067229...
Tune around amps is stupid as fuk thing.
hollow spear
They've buffed warrior, who had already simmed higher than we did. So there's definitely arguments for a slight buff. Let's see what happens...
median nacelle
They've buffed warrior, who had already simmed higher than we did. So there's de...
cant wait for the first part of ur name to be reality
bleak night
i cant wait for the second part to be reality
median nacelle
we need mages for the iq buff
dreamy moat
5% of 0iq is still 0iq
median nacelle
sit
hollow spear
Bel doesn't know it stands for colonoscopy
median nacelle
https://tenor.com/view/shaking-booty-gif-10111486565593044883
what the hell is even that
lucid jackal
Tune around amps is stupid as fuk thing.
Tuning around the context of raid is like, the most normal form of balancing wdym
If a raid is damage amps, why wouldnt they tune around damage amps
lucid jackal
They've buffed warrior, who had already simmed higher than we did. So there's de...
sims aren't the game
Don't forget it
hollow spear
We've had this conversation on s2 launch and it turned out that we ended up at the end of the pack like sims indicated
So while they might not be the game, they're a tool (not the be all end all) to gauge things with
We currently sim 5 mio, while most classes have at least one spec sitting at 5.5ish and others who clear 6 mio. At least to my knowledge.
I'm going to play sub anyways and acknowledge that encounters and amps might help us. But I still believe we could use a buff. I've lost hope for bug fixes at this point of the ptr cycle.
lucid jackal
having good st, and high cleave is going to be a boon on a handful of these fights
austere zodiac
is fdk the only melee that doesnt suck atm
short radish
what the hell is even that
short radish
austere zodiac
both can be true
short radish
bring back assassination being called sin rogues not ass rogues
dreamy moat
As a fight as opposed to a name?
hollow spear
Based on what I witness in their chat on a daily basis, ass is a fitting name
hollow spear
MM has already been topping most of this season
Rogue raid buff existing doesn't stop them from benching us if it's convenient
lucid jackal
Grip is also mega utility on this tier
hollow spear
Them = the cabal of evil raid leaders
lucid jackal
DK goes 1 tier without being overtuned and also grip being OP
and DK players start sneding out pings in the discord to tweet at the devs
Insane playerbase
austere zodiac
and DK players start sneding out pings in the discord to tweet at the devs
i blame the mod
insane move
hollow spear
The non insane player base is kind of the exception, no?
Pinging everyone and devs became a fashion
Eleem and Fuu should ping Realz and link the nimble bugs
runic trail
Eleem and Fuu should ping Realz and link the nimble bugs
Black powder buffed 20℅ to compensate, have a nice day
hollow spear
Maybe we'll get the dk treatment and do 20% more dps than other melee
Or dk gets the fury warrior treatment of s1. Immediate slapdown after rwf ends 
Deserved, unlike with fury
hollow spear
Black powder buffed 20℅ to compensate, have a nice day
That would free up my evis keybind so I could use tornado on a non cursed spot of my keyboard
runic trail
That would free up my evis keybind so I could use tornado on a non cursed spot o...
No because that's where you'll be putting goremaws
alpine wraith
fdk in s1 did get some slaps
hollow spear
Don't threaten me with a good time
alpine wraith
but idk how it will end up now
also for people thinking we will use tornado for anything but spreading ruptures kek
hollow spear
Good enough
alpine wraith
i mean it is useful
hollow spear
It's not good, but you get four seconds of pressing a button
Instead of waiting for the insane energy cost of storm
steel zinc
Ele went from bottom dps to top 3. The Delta between top and bottom this tier is 13% and next tier rn looking 27%. This is insane.
leaden prairie
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
plucky parrot
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
bleak night
No highrolling until after rwf nerfs go out
runic trail
I'd agree to the sandbag pact but I sandbag by default
alpine wraith
im very unlucky so next tier i will be purple man
steel zinc
im very unlucky so next tier i will be purple man
I either play dh or rogue
Both looking not good
😅
short radish
i thought DH was looking strong numbers wise
alpine wraith
first i need to find guild
tribal blade
you wanna talk about how tanky rogues are sometimes
i pushed up my 19 dfc with an outlaw
tribal blade
the healer died on last boss with no bres
alpine wraith
but we can vanish!
tribal blade
and me and the outlaw soloed like 1/4 of the last boss without heals
steel zinc
first i need to find guild
U dont have???
alpine wraith
in the process of finding one for sure rogue buffs come
steel zinc
and me and the outlaw soloed like 1/4 of the last boss without heals
Yeah rogue is a tank. Like you can even tank bosses etc
steel zinc
in the process of finding one for sure rogue buffs come
Gotta hurry
tribal blade
Yeah rogue is a tank. Like you can even tank bosses etc
yeah was unreal haha
steel zinc
Also worse case just press self heal
Also also you know a mechanic in testing is bad when u press evasion and cloak and still get hit by it
short radish
problem with that is then you get compared to a dk
dks are basically dps that can tank
i know rogues are tanky
but DK are on a whole nother level
bleak night
always tuned at least decently well, unkillable, brings one of the best raid defensives period, has grip
truly its a wonder dks ever manage to get into groups without a raid buff
hollow spear
It's the same problem as always
If people don't see them played during rwf they assume it's bad
daring raptor
Is desthstslker completely out of the question for next patch aswell. Can’t find a sheets with deathstalker sims
hollow spear
It's so out of the question
daring raptor
And in the fuu sheet. Why is the talents for the single target sim with first dance?
bleak night
first dance stonks have risen
daring raptor
Seems super weird.
And 2x finality and no rotten for aoe?
daring raptor
first dance stonks have risen
Really? Even on a raid fight 5-8 min?
bleak night
apparently
hollow spear
It's not only tfd being "good", it's WM being completely dogwater
daring raptor
And for Aoe then no first dance no rotten but 2x finality. How does that makes sense
bleak night
i havent looked at the sheet but if it says it then i trust it
hollow spear
The aoe sim is just the highest simming ds