subtlety

[alpine wraith]

sub is just kinda made wrong for m+ many weird things

and their tuning knobs are always bp and nimble

[warm marlin]

Idk server lag or something

[lilac stag]

sure. I’m talking about keys as a dps with very little to offer outside of dps

[alpine wraith]

we have an aoe cc every 60 secs

that breaks instantly

but puts a debuff on mobs!

[leaden prairie]

ok but its just a buff bar so

idk what you mean

[plush roost]

Maybe its more like 10 if i consider people that dont typically pug but would get insta invites but yeah its slim pickins. Youre fine btw never hear a bad word about you haha

[lilac stag]

Dance and cheap shot.

[tribal blade]

nice! btw i started playing a lot with executioner and elmer

[alpine wraith]

stunning secret kekw

[tribal blade]

they commented recently "we were talking in cord were wondering if you started doing something different, because your dmg is really good now"

[warm marlin]

The buff was still active in logs for another 0.3s or so after it appeared to have ended on the wa

[alpine wraith]

tell them you believe in the church of big crit now

[warm marlin]

I watched it back in 0.25x speed

[tribal blade]

i had started to fine tune my dps and stop doing bad habits

[alpine wraith]

pog

good thing now is tfd being instant will help a lot of people in m+

[plush roost]

Thatll do it haha

[alpine wraith]

the diff on getting those is big

[remote shuttle]

Really?

They fixed It? How It Is now bud?

[hazy breach]

He doesnt mean instant as in not 6 seconds

[tribal blade]

i learnt during S2 of DF during god comp the only way to get people to want to play off meta is make yourself undeniable

[steel zinc]

100% agree. Rogue is not bad just other classes gained so much utility over the last exp

[hazy breach]

Some people have said that it starts counting the 6 seconds once you leave combat

[alpine wraith]

right no on live tfd can go from like 10 to 12 secs sometimes

[hazy breach]

Instead of randomly not doing it

[alpine wraith]

depending on combat shittery

and the buff beginning

[steel zinc]

on ptr it does!

[steel zinc]

no

on ptr pack is dead

[alpine wraith]

read above

[steel zinc]

you stealth and it starts counting

ok mb

xDDD

tldr

[alpine wraith]

big stonks

also helps a lot you can vanish at the end of a pack and not reliably lose dmg to get tfd on next one

even if chain pulling

[remote shuttle]

@hazy breach @alpine wraith It doesn't restart count anymore when count Is still running and someone pull boss?

[alpine wraith]

that one i could not check but it also happened on random pulls

someone that actually did m+ needs to confirm

[remote shuttle]

But u overall feel It Better now if i got right

[alpine wraith]

it will be a very noticeable change

[lilac stag]

and how they fix that, if they care to fix it, idk

like assa has everything

[alpine wraith]

rogue has only lost things over the times

[lilac stag]

Still not amazing

[remote shuttle]

Great thing so

[steel zinc]

no it doesnt

[alpine wraith]

also for some reason we ahve had the same number of for 20 years

[steel zinc]

it just counts

[alpine wraith]

oh that is big then

[steel zinc]

its really good on ptr

[patent lichen]

What ever happened to Aoe kidney

[steel zinc]

you can also vanish if you get with vanish out of combat

that highly depends though

[spiral sierra]

general question, do we pool energy for burst or just slam the buttons?

[alpine wraith]

no need to pool

[steel zinc]

you pool coup

but only for damage amps

[lilac stag]

outlaw got it nerfed. Sub can’t have nice things. So we requested group CDR got removed.

[plush roost]

Symbols will give u infinity energy during burst

[spiral sierra]

kk

[leaden prairie]

wdym outlaw got it nerfed

[spiral sierra]

ty guys for the quick answers 😄

[lilac stag]

that’s the cannon in my head at least for aoe kidney.

[leaden prairie]

haha

[steel zinc]

I would argue in the new raid where 4/8 bosses have damage maps you build a coup for it and just blast. Like you do on vexie

[leaden prairie]

i think its nicer how they did it

class utility

instead of spec utility

spec utility sucks ass if you ask me

[plush roost]

Agre3

[patent lichen]

Of course it was the outlaws

[tribal blade]

aoe kidney when

[steel zinc]

If not we would have aoe kidney

[hazy breach]

Iron wire should be classwide

[plush roost]

I think aoe cheap shot on a cd would be way cooler

[leaden prairie]

@warm marlin its jsut a buff tracker i cant do shit if its not accurate

not my fault cuh

[tribal blade]

which ability would sub spread it with

[steel zinc]

iron wire should be class wide and a choice note with aoe kidney imo

[tribal blade]

strike?

[patent lichen]

Knowing blizz, rupture targets

[lilac stag]

I really don’t want utility interfering with dps

[tribal blade]

i like that

[lilac stag]

aoe kidney. Just adjust if for aoe

So it’s not cracked

[plush roost]

It already does idk spending 7cp is more of a loss than vanish cheapshot imo

[tribal blade]

just feelsbad watching other classes be cc machines

[leaden prairie]

kidney cost 5 cp my guy

[hazy breach]

I'd rather have kidney be singletarget still and just ignore DR

[tribal blade]

and we're like "hey i got aoe blind"

[leaden prairie]

it interf with dps just as much

[lilac stag]

How about smokebomb for aoe disorient?

[leaden prairie]

my take is that st ccs shouldnt be on the same dr

cause it make no sense

[plush roost]

Hard agree holy

[leaden prairie]

and render st cc legit useless

[alpine wraith]

used to be like that

[lilac stag]

and leave our stuns out of it

or short stun

[alpine wraith]

cheap shot kidney were on diff drs

good times

[tribal blade]

the amount of times i try to kidney a mob and it's on full dr from the vdh and shammy spamming cc

is a lot

[leaden prairie]

like i go into a pack and my goal isnt to send a good timed kidney, my goal is to send a kidney as soon as possible so its not fully dred??

and like ??

wtf man

[hazy breach]

Ye fair, but i think kidney is especially egregious since it costs multiple globals compared to stormbolt which is only one

[alpine wraith]

it was even funnier when we had the 10% dmg amp on stuns

you had to scream WAIT UNTIL I KIDNEY

[hazy breach]

Ye big stinky

[alpine wraith]

big pull tech

[plush roost]

Me when i explain for the nth time to my group that i couldnt reaction kidney cause it takes 2 globals

[tribal blade]

as sin you can't even send a kidney that fast or you fuck up your entire setup

[alpine wraith]

cheap shot strike tab kidney

or actually not even tab

[leaden prairie]

me when outlaw kidney takes litteraly 6 global if im unlucky

[alpine wraith]

cheap shot tab kidney

bit value rogue situation

[hazy breach]

Ye lemme just kidney during my 6 seconds of IC

[plush roost]

XDDDDDD

[tribal blade]

depression

[alpine wraith]

sub is the best 2 target cc spec

invite us pls

[leaden prairie]

bro i wish kidney just was baseline 5s or whatver and didnt cost cps

i hate that it cost cps

so outdated

[alpine wraith]

ignore assa gets dr on their opener

or does more dmg

[hazy breach]

At the very least they should make gouge not be on the same node as aoe blind lmao

[leaden prairie]

naaah

let gouge die man

[plush roost]

I miss gouge

[leaden prairie]

gouge is useless now lol

[alpine wraith]

maybe it is time for aoe kick too

[swift tinsel]

The duality of man

[tribal blade]

AOE GOUGE???

[leaden prairie]

idk if you guys realize

but when gouge was good

[hazy breach]

Ye i know it sucks

[leaden prairie]

casts didnt recast

now wtf is gogue

its a kick

[alpine wraith]

call it capoeira kick

[leaden prairie]

that isnt a kick

[alpine wraith]

just aoe kick

[sinful zephyr]

Let gouge Count as interrupt

[leaden prairie]

st blind

and you need to be in front

like wtf

[tribal blade]

lol i got that reference

[hazy breach]

Idk i just want something so i can feel useful in a key

[plush roost]

I feel useful cause i top the meters hehe

[alpine wraith]

our usefulness is sometimes vanishing something

[tribal blade]

i enjoy the vdh trying to put me on the cc chain before a workshop key starts for the first pull

[alpine wraith]

and making it not do anything

POG

[hazy breach]

My shaman has 3 stops with 1/3 or half the cooldown of my stops

[tribal blade]

and i have to tell him i can't

[hazy breach]

And im like YEP im helping

[vale pine]

shroud speed brrrrr

[alpine wraith]

speed shroud true

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/sonic-sonic-the-hedgehog-sega-gif-10727238677934403701

[plush roost]

Shoutout disorients not affecting mechs

[tribal blade]

yeah shammy is kinda cracked on cc/kicks right now

[patent lichen]

I'm about to have a 4 hour CPR class at work .... What if I just kidney shot the instructor, can I skip the RP?

[tribal blade]

BULLSHIT

[alpine wraith]

we can kidney literal skeletons

world is fun

[swift tinsel]

Lmao

immersion

[tribal blade]

me and some buddies started a 19 workshop key today after having done a charity 15 FG on OCE

[plush roost]

Yo guys i got it

[swift tinsel]

Not our fault our cc kit is stuck in 2006

[plush roost]

Kidney Spree

[errant ferry]

I have been screaming for years that I would like smoke bomb to work like dome or amz. Would be a really great thing for rogues.

[tribal blade]

you kidney all mobs but it's a 5 second channel?

[plush roost]

Hehe

[formal helm]

Imagine that shit...

[alpine wraith]

smoke worked in MoP

you will see the silly things

[swift tinsel]

Darkness is what smoke bomb should be

[alpine wraith]

available

[hazy breach]

Aoe lightning lasso

[alpine wraith]

let me tell you there were a lot

[vale pine]

i mean darkness is literally what smoke bomb was

[tribal blade]

LOL i forgot about that spell

[vale pine]

[errant ferry]

Yes bring it back

[formal helm]

They stole it from us
Our preciousss

[swift tinsel]

Now we can use smokebomb to spread fazed but not UB

[alpine wraith]

wonder if they will fix the klaxxi smoke exploit

[patent lichen]

What if distract was an AOE kick

[vale pine]

can't its a dh spell now

[formal helm]

?

[patent lichen]

Boom

[tribal blade]

nah distract is already useful utility

actually useful

as is

[errant ferry]

Also, give rogues a grip, call it “get over here” modeled after scorpion in mortal combat hahaha

[alpine wraith]

you could smoke bomb the mob that used an ability that spawned adds that healed him

[swift tinsel]

Ye patrol freezing quite good

[alpine wraith]

and just not kill adds and kill him

[tribal blade]

we're the only class in the game that can distract

[formal helm]

Oh
Neat

[tribal blade]

it's low key good

[runic trail]

Distracting enemies in PvP off of narrow ledges, also good

[formal helm]

Ye, that's near

Neat

[errant ferry]

Distract is low key good but so situational. Would rather have something more useful all the time

[tribal blade]

maybe, but it feels good to have a spell that does something unique like that

[latent finch]

You mean mindsooth?

[errant ferry]

Soothe is much more useful than distract imo

[tulip gorge]

don't worry, they will give mages a distract too

[patent lichen]

Ok ok you have a point

[leaden prairie]

ok but distract + shroud is better than mind soothe

[tribal blade]

i had a group today in a workshop go "HOLY SHIT that's right rogue distract" when we could walk past a mob without waiting for it to pat

[errant ferry]

Well no one plays rogue so groups don’t know how to play around distract

[patent lichen]

What if it did both

[tribal blade]

true actually

(until the priest uses fade+soothe)

[leaden prairie]

Well that's for him only

[tribal blade]

haha true

i was thinking of brackenhide cages

[leaden prairie]

Ye sure

[errant ferry]

Give me mass vanish for my party

[tribal blade]

but yeah a few instances where you can shroud+distract this season

[leaden prairie]

What for

A scuffed shroud ?

[errant ferry]

Oh we can find uses for mass vanish

[leaden prairie]

Ye they already did

It's called meld

[tribal blade]

would honestly like them to remove all power from vanish on all specs and then make it a pure utility spell and lower the cd

[leaden prairie]

And it's just a scuffed shroud

[vale pine]

i think blizz rather gets rid of stealth

than giving people more access to it

[tribal blade]

i would be so sad if we lost stealth

that would be such a crazy move

what we would get in return

[vale pine]

well it would probably be some cobat buff you can trigger

instead

[tribal blade]

ooo interesting

[vale pine]

i mean i am just wild guessing

but stealth is the biggest pain point on rogue with a lot of bugs and limitations (on sin/outlaw)

also the most hated gameplay mechanic in pvp

which is why i don't think they want to give more classes/specs access to it

[tribal blade]

true i do hear a LOT of complaints about rogues in pvp

[runic trail]

https://tenor.com/view/krunk-cartoon-emperors-new-groove-gif-7870466

New iteration of stealth confirmed

[vestal escarp]

All dfc i did in vc with ppl i had this interaction

[tribal blade]

haha yeah people are always happily surprised

(until you distract a mob at the wrong time in the wrong position)

[steel zinc]

Void-Touched Fragment looks like delve bis or? its really good in m+ compared to pacemaker

[swift tinsel]

you're kinda at the mercy of it proccing at a good time like azerokk

[hollow spear]

The most you can do is play around it with your dances

Always cursed when flag comes back up right after it proc'd

[vestal escarp]

As with all procs trinkets

Unless they have decent uptime like crystal, crab or pacemaker

[swift tinsel]

I like Sigil as a passive so I'm likely prio'ing that

[vestal escarp]

I think I'll go with crystal again

Felt very comfy s1

[swift tinsel]

also I think with how many main swaps we're having in raid I only have to compete with hunters for agi stuff

and one of them might be swapping to spriest

stonks

oh 1 dh nvm, still stonks

[steel zinc]

I think their might be some cook as sub rogue play double vanish and move out of combat to get more first dance buff uptime. But idk how much worth it is.

On ptr you just press on a trash pack vanish and pre move a bit out and you get instantly first dance countdown

[jade urchin]

sounds bit super niche cause u drop cold blood or super charger talents for it no?

[steel zinc]

yeah but cb rn in m+ is imo kinda meh

you have so much cdr and dance so much

like the tierset doesnt change really your gameplay but also the tierset does change your gameplay

like you just have more dances and that feels good and having longer dances is also really good

[jade urchin]

ye and cold blood slightly worse cause tset doesnt affect it anymore

cause no sectech buff in tset

but i think still too niche like u need a good reason to go double vanish cause else its kinda dead talent points imo

[steel zinc]

yeah it is just also highly depends on dungeon

just some cook for dungeons where you just chain a lot like halls

for dawnbreaker you have automatically tfd up for nearly every pull because of flying

[jade urchin]

i think its fun for lowkeys

but lil overcooked

[delicate slate]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[carmine portal]

Soothe 0 CD tho

[pearl charm]

Looking at the bosses for next raid, between sub and assa what are we feeling? If tuned equally of course. From my own testing sub seems super solid

[alpine wraith]

sub will be cool yea

but never count assa out

maybe there is some execute or they get buffed twice

[lilac stag]

You’ve got a long 3 weeks ahead with random ass tuning.

if you enjoy it, play it.

[slate marlin]

Lot of tuning pending ye

although it feels like they are very behind

i think whispyr said something about it earlier

[alpine wraith]

it does feel like it

but ptr vers are alrady release candidates

likely they first want to make the bosses not crash instances or some shit

[slate marlin]

Raid testing for what ive seen/heard has been good

But they need to do more tuning for sure

[alpine wraith]

i mean last boss not tested i expect it to be like spine of deathwing silly or gallywix wtf

[lilac stag]

||and just because spec is performing week 1 of raid or for rwf, doesn’t mean it’s going to be “meta” in 3 weeks.||

[alpine wraith]

hide that info

we might get another conversation

[lilac stag]

Done

[alpine wraith]

sub will blast week 1 with new weapon and using forge/prism

big 4 set situation

actually i didnt check but i think you replace belt at like 710 ilvl or something

[lavish girder]

sub will blast, get a 5% nerf, be bottom 3, get a 5% buff with 1 month left, as is tradition

[alpine wraith]

nah even with current strong tier we are not super good

although burst is big

but also some rng

[lilac stag]

🚀 📈 📉 💥

[alpine wraith]

man i kinda hate it

[lavish girder]

haha yeah, subs biggest crime is doing good in the first 2 min of a fight and getting attention

[lilac stag]

Enjoy more rng

It’ll be fine

[wraith sphinx]

we are so back it is so over we are so back it is so over we are s-

[lilac stag]

enjoy smaller sectechs

It’ll be fine

[alpine wraith]

the thing is you can get 6 coups on opener or 4

or even 8

but it is totally rng

but the thing that you can proc coup just going into dance

then stab sec tech storm coup coup strike evis strike coup coup

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-cry-one-piece-mid-mid-piece-one-mid-gif-3938984731501782050

[alpine wraith]

you will have like 24 stacks of flawwles

going into the second dance with tfd

LUL

then also comes sht rng

if you get lots in between coups that is very strong

as you dont need to storm in between

if you sim it might not be huge variance overall but you will feel it on your BONES

if you highroll or not

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/imoneyslots-gif-22603917

[warm marlin]

if we do end up playing prism at least opener matters less

on non opener flags you can just prep sht to sectec coup coup

so that one is mostly fine

[hazy breach]

They nerfed stone idol

So its definitely prism now

Unless the fight is very short

But presumably fights wont be that short for a while

[warm marlin]

ya thinking about araz for that statement

[alpine wraith]

prism is fine for the most part

[lilac stag]

how long in HoC relevant is my question.

[warm marlin]

or if they randomly buff lily or something

[hazy breach]

I mean its a shit trinket

[alpine wraith]

HoC gets outclassed week 1 by lilly

[hazy breach]

So as soon as you get prism or the 2 min one

Its gone

[alpine wraith]

just because of ilvl too

so easy to replace

even a m0 one is better

[lilac stag]

hat ilvl though. Even m0?

[alpine wraith]

or any forge/prism

[warm marlin]

isnt lily worse than hoc even like 10 ilvl up

[hollow spear]

nah

[warm marlin]

that trinket is so ass

[alpine wraith]

M0 is champion

[hollow spear]

lily sucks ass

[alpine wraith]

so it goes to like 7xx

dont remember exact number

[hazy breach]

Normal and hc gear are the same for the first 1½-2 months anyway

[alpine wraith]

yea

so silly

[hollow spear]

I am not using any crests on lily

[alpine wraith]

nah you get it from m+

[hollow spear]

yeah, but you'd have to upgrade it

[alpine wraith]

then maybe get the good raid ones

[hollow spear]

to make it worthwhile

[warm marlin]

youre just spending runed though

or if you mean gilded you get discount anyway

not the end of the world

[alpine wraith]

you will need to upgrade trinkets anyway

and yea you will likely prio using runed on trinks

or just save until reset and see what happens with the m+ gear at max ilvl base drop you can use

[hollow spear]

I just hope that we are the clear no1 for prism

[alpine wraith]

even if we are clear n1 it has to drop

[hazy breach]

Frost DKs

[alpine wraith]

im known for my good luck

[hollow spear]

well yeah

do frost dks like it?

besides being generally op

[hazy breach]

Well theyre another 90s class

So ye

[swift tinsel]

and they don't have anything like lily iirc

[lilac stag]

SV I think is 45

but it’s SV

[hollow spear]

frost dk is also 45

[hazy breach]

Ye but sv isnt fotm

[hollow spear]

so the question is whether they gain more than we do

[hazy breach]

Frost DK just got a rework so its gonna be strong either way

[hollow spear]

because we are a "true" 90s class

[alpine wraith]

meanwhile ret pala using two passives

brrrrrrrr

[hazy breach]

Warriors probably want it too but

[alpine wraith]

we are safe from hunters at least

[lilac stag]

are dps warriors even going to be in raid.

[swift tinsel]

with their 1min trueshot

[hollow spear]

Kalamazi in his video: "demonology is quite strong"

making it sound like it's not giga broken 😄

[warm marlin]

dk friend was saying araz prism double on use might be the move for them

[alpine wraith]

it is quite decent yes

[warm marlin]

since lust pull actually matters

[alpine wraith]

double on use is quite decent for us

[hollow spear]

meh

[alpine wraith]

not that behind from prism+passive

but will depend more on fight

[hollow spear]

if there's fights where the additional control matters, sure

but on damage amps it's certainly prism + passive

[swift tinsel]

it allows us a juiced 3min flag

[warm marlin]

specifically for specs that actually scale off haste having a trinket for lust pull is a bit more important

[hazy breach]

Idk i dont see the point of the 2 on-uses

[alpine wraith]

prism is already quite good to move things around

[swift tinsel]

it would purely be a fight timer thing imo

[hazy breach]

90s Prism+passive agi is stronger than the on-use from the 2 min

[swift tinsel]

like if there's a reason you need an omega window for it

[lilac stag]

Assuming 5 min fight ?

[alpine wraith]

only reason for double on use i can think is to move dmg from one phase to another without losing a lot on the first one

[hollow spear]

if two on-use trinkets are simming close to the strongest on-use plus passive

[hazy breach]

No i mean the agi you get

[warm marlin]

yes, i think its mostly the problem of not having anything on pull for stuff like mm that does a large part of their burst in lust

[lilac stag]

o

[alpine wraith]

like getting a fully stacked prism on another phase

[warm marlin]

if you're lusting elsewhere then it doesnt matter obv

[alpine wraith]

but forge lets you not get krangled on the last one

[hollow spear]

the argument is probably that you can get something more out of if if there's a juicy pad situation for the 2nd on-use

[alpine wraith]

vs just skipping an use

i mean it will be situational

but also not needed likely

not like this is a garrosh or darkfuse situation

[hazy breach]

And if you run double on-use youre wasting 1/6 of the value of your prism, assuming you are using things literally on cd

If you end up holding at any point it just gets worse

[alpine wraith]

prism+passive and skipping a use to have a bigger one in next phase might just be enough

instead of 2 on use but also gl getting a forge

anyway

it is something like if it appears on vault nice and nothing is good

but otherwise dont expect to get it for a while

[hazy breach]

Well thats also assuming the amp phases line up perfectly with 90s cds

Which is unlikely

[alpine wraith]

not even amp phases

but things like mug zee or bandit

where you can just

swoop the dmg around

even razageth etc

[cyan lava]

yes 😉

gimme that shit

[swift tinsel]

no me

[cyan lava]

but uh

every 90s class will probably want prism now

[hollow spear]

Watch me play prism + the pvp trinket for maximum flexibility

[swift tinsel]

fuck it, I'm playing no trinkets

[cyan lava]

[swift tinsel]

[hollow spear]

my point is not want

but deserve

:^)

[cyan lava]

itll go to one of the 4 frost dks in your raid

tfw 2nd class but 5th prio

[hollow spear]

I am sending emergency nerf prayers every night

one of them will certainly be heard

[swift tinsel]

Lol we did gain 2 fdk from swaps

[cyan lava]

pls no

let me get off the bench

[swift tinsel]

they gotta kneecap mm hunters first

egregious

[hollow spear]

true, hunters deserve it more

[cyan lava]

mm and demo lock

[swift tinsel]

hundy P

[jade urchin]

i havent fucked around much with ptr, does new tset change any of our rotation logic besides pressing coup twice

[alpine wraith]

actually pvp trink might be bettet than lilly

[hollow spear]

not if they don't buff bp again

[hazy breach]

Press storm inbetween your coups during blades, thats it

[alpine wraith]

yea you can gamble sometimes but not worth overall

[cyan lava]

surely sub could just use Araz's+Prism

[jade urchin]

whats the reason behind that?

[hollow spear]

do you still want to coup at max cp outside of blades or is it also a thing to just send with minimal cp?

[cyan lava]

just like all the other 90s classes that got fucked

[hazy breach]

4p locks your coup stacks to 4 still

So you cant build more stacks

[jade urchin]

ahh unseen blade

[hazy breach]

Until after youve used the 4p buff

[alpine wraith]

you dont want to waste an unseen

[jade urchin]

okay okay tyvm

[swift tinsel]

you send with as many cp as you have before the 5sec runs out

[hazy breach]

Seems a lot worse than just prism+passive

[hollow spear]

I have to google Araz, cannot even remember what that is

[swift tinsel]

Araz's Ritual Forge iirc

main stat decays over 30sec

[cyan lava]

the virgin 9k mastery vs the chad 45k mainstat

[plush roost]

Versus the gigachad 27k crit rating (rip idol)

[hollow spear]

didnt even know it has such a long name

[swift tinsel]

what'd they nerf idol down to?

[hollow spear]

in my mind it was called "Forge"

[plush roost]

7k

[cyan lava]

60% less

[swift tinsel]

oofta

[cyan lava]

so yea

[swift tinsel]

had it coming tho

[plush roost]

On heroic 1/6

[cyan lava]

not that much

they should buff it back by like 20-30% unironically

[plush roost]

Pacemaker is like 5k and passive

Idol is dead

Haha

[cyan lava]

when 90s classes are looking to ignore it completely its not great

[swift tinsel]

I mean that's how lily is gonna be

[cyan lava]

ya they should buff that too

(and put strength on it please god)

[swift tinsel]

is prism the only option for str?

as far as viable on-use goes

[cyan lava]

prism idol and araz

[hazy breach]

Idk 90s prism gives like 33k primary for 20s, which is roughly the same as forge gives across 20 seconds

[swift tinsel]

ye araz

[cyan lava]

araz is more for lust on pull typeshit

[hazy breach]

Ye but lust is irrelevant

So

[cyan lava]

oh true sub is weird

[hazy breach]

[swift tinsel]

the kiss/curse of not valuing haste much

[hazy breach]

If you need burst on pull you'd just run forge with a passive

[north schooner]

is forge's decay linear?

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure ye

[hollow spear]

somewhere around 25k mainstat when your 2nd sectec hits

on 4/6 heroic

[feral coyote]

wasnt there a pinned mesage somewhere what effect is the strongest for Sub ?

on belt

[hollow spear]

there still is

just have to scroll

[steel zinc]

@hazy breach wouldn't forget used be better on 2nd sectech with everything build up?

[teal prism]

Think I must have missed something in an update? Something has changed between yesterday and today. Died 5 times in a M+ and mobs are smacking hard. What did I miss?

[steel zinc]

Wdym ptr?

[warm marlin]

you would be missing your on use for your first half of blades

[teal prism]

Not PTR. I just seem to be suddenly sucking

[steel zinc]

Yeah but the one that actually does the whole dmg is the 2nd one

That's how we used ashes in df

[steel zinc]

Nothing changed on live.

[hazy breach]

Ye but ashes was shorter and decayed faster

[lilac stag]

Repair your gear

[steel zinc]

I bet we get fuu sims before balance tuning @vale pine

[vale pine]

stat combinations take a while, but ye soon™

tho it seems like not much changes

we still play lense 2x, still mostly mastery/vers

[crystal bone]

[steel zinc]

we are cooking

fuu the hero

[magic cliff]

Grabbed this macro from wowhead but I'm not seeing it function:
#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance

Am I missing something fuu or did they break this function?

[hollow spear]

This better be a lashga sim

Optimizing gems

[vale pine]

you need to press it twice

[hazy breach]

Theres not really much cooking to be done

[vale pine]

^

its quite boring

[magic cliff]

hm, let me see

[vale pine]

first press = dance

second press = backstab

[steel zinc]

😭

[hazy breach]

Its like which neck, ring, belt and bracers do you use in the bis profile

[magic cliff]

oh ok im a potato

ty fuu

[vale pine]

all fine

always ask if something does not work or hard to understand

[steel zinc]

I do not see a world where most class would not craft weapon first and bracers 2nd

and ring and neck imo can be get way faster if you pvp a bit and just get any neck or ring for free itemlevel upgrade

[wary plover]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-hype-kid-moves-happy-gif-16609706

[vale pine]

we will craft weapon frist probably

[steel zinc]

the pvp ones imo are really good early on

[vale pine]

wepaon dps still rly good

[steel zinc]

tbf though the 2nd boss dropps bis dagger

[hazy breach]

I mean ye but thats not relevant for the bis profile sims

[steel zinc]

like not 3rd like cauldron

[steel zinc]

yeah ofc

[vale pine]

sure but

you won't kill 2nd mythic boss first week

[shell oxide]

did i miss this weeks class changes or weren't there any?

[vale pine]

and get dagger

[hazy breach]

There hasnt been any no

[vale pine]

no changes

[shell oxide]

is that strange this close to season start or has that happened before?

[steel zinc]

0

[vale pine]

we still expect trinket tuning at one point

[hazy breach]

Idk dont think there will be any

[steel zinc]

why not?

[hazy breach]

But who knows

[hazy breach]

[vale pine]

i mean, ideally you wait for your first clear

[hazy breach]

Theyre stressed and behind their schedule as always, we have no clue what theyre gonna do and what theyre gonna leave to rot

[vale pine]

^^^ this

haha

[sullen hare]

oh, I have some ideas *looks at subtlety rogue*

[left ledge]

Buff black powder

35% buff

[sullen hare]

another 10-12% ought to do it

[vale pine]

I have one idea

rename rupture to nightblade

and change the icon

[left ledge]

That’s a good idea but you know what would make it an amazing idea

[sullen hare]

I like it, it's more purple

[left ledge]

If when they did that, they also buffed black powder

[vale pine]

or secret

buff secret

[left ledge]

I don’t like or

I like and

[hazy breach]

"Targets affected by rupture take 35% more damage from BP"

[left ledge]

[vale pine]

haha

[swift tinsel]

real sub rogues already did

[vale pine]

can we get back

[left ledge]

Don’t give them ideas

[vale pine]

"storm does 100% more damage during dance"

2x 0 is still 0 but it was cool

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean they could bring it back

They’d just need to tweak it a bit

[slate marlin]

Buff dance windows

[left ledge]

So instead of storm it’s bp

[swift tinsel]

nightblade but it siphons bp damage into 1 target

and/or sectech

[hazy breach]

Singular focus?

[swift tinsel]

yeah but we'd actually play this

[left ledge]

Rework goremaw so that it applies a funnel debuff onto an enemy, all shadow damage done by the rogue to any targets during the duration of that debuff will explode onto the target

Then then

Then buff bp

And then rework shuriken tornado

To powder tornado

Sends 10 7 cp powders in 2 seconds

[vale pine]

i want new animations

[swift tinsel]

singular focus is in the aether for us

[vale pine]

give princess animations

[left ledge]

Does she have an aoe animation with purple smoke

[swift tinsel]

nope, which is why her animation is baseline better

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/princess-peach-showtime-ninja-peach-gif-10817911714984109488

[left ledge]

They should give her one

Then give us one and buff bp

I’m so hopeful for sub

[swift tinsel]

have them pop in and out like Yiga clan members from BoW

[left ledge]

Season 3 is our season

[swift tinsel]

maybe I'm too Naruto-pilled but I'd love some really cool kunai animation like this

[vale pine]

i played that game

my gf wanted to, so we tried it

it wasn't as good as mainline mario, and some of the transformations of her ended up fairly boring

tho did play worse games (game is princes peach showtime)

tho to go back to topic a bit, i do think rogue is in need of better animations

besides a lot of qol changes

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, personally I'd like them to embrace the shadow ninja theme and add visuals related to that

[cursive vapor]

Oh yeahh

[steel zinc]

Stealthi has it to and I got a copy of his weak auras.

[swift tinsel]

the icon should just be in weakauras under manual icons

[vale pine]

you can change it in weakauras with the icon id

[brittle plinth]

Just leveled an arcane mage buds ... kind of fun class. Not quite sub but pretty nice.

[left ledge]

All my icons are black powder

I can only tell what they are based on position

[brittle plinth]

Why not Gloomblade?

[left ledge]

I’ve already accomplished that goal

We played two seasons of pressing pretty much just gloomblade

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/muppet-show-muppets-swedish-chef-bomb-explosion-gif-24958662

[steel zinc]

done cooking?

😄

[vale pine]

wdym

i do put the sim profiles on !fuu, i still sim assassiantion/outlaw (s3 tab in light mode)

so will take a while to populate

sims are slow

[swift tinsel]

gotta love the 1,100 combos it has to run

[vale pine]

more like 14M

several times

[swift tinsel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

no inev, interesting

do sims model coup the same as in-game or how it should function?

coup with finality*

[steel zinc]

oh nvm saw in the light version

5 mill

mhh seems kinda low ngl

😭

[vale pine]

i have no idea what other classes sim

so

[steel zinc]

6.2 wl

sims are all over the place

[vale pine]

expected

[steel zinc]

and frost 5.8

[swift tinsel]

hey the max is almost 6mil (ignore the 2mil range)

[abstract lantern]

How’s sub looking this season?

[brittle plinth]

top 3 rogue spec

[vale pine]

looks very similar to s2

in terms of gameplay

which i assume is what you wanted to know?

[abstract lantern]

In comparison to sin and outlaw. Wondering if it’ll be in a better spot this upcoming season.

[steel zinc]

if you have to ask your not doing content where it is relevant and just play what you enjoy most

4/8 encounters have dmg amps last 2 bosses aswell

[abstract lantern]

Or perhaps I haven’t had a moment to sit down and really do my own research, which is on me.

[steel zinc]

I can tell you it will be either sin or sub and you will play either 1 or 2 rogues

and the rest you will see week one

no one knows exactly what they will play except like top 5 teams

[vale pine]

think it will be fairly close but we will see

[wary plover]

why ur sim uses Improved SS?

[vale pine]

because shadow focus sims the same

so you just use improved storm

and have the benefits to get better multi target

but feel free to use SF instead

[wary plover]

oh ok thanks

[astral axle]

actions.build+=/shuriken_storm,if=buff.tww3_trickster_4pc.up&buff.shadow_blades.up

[vale pine]

oh yes, thats a small optimization to use storm to not waste UB procs

during blades

[astral axle]

im being dramatic; could be far worse in terms of optimizations. ezpz to follow that one :]

thanks fuu for your work as always sir

[vale pine]

its just typical subtlety

we have all the small micro optimization

you can do for more dps

but are... not that nice to play

[steel zinc]

like bs in dance

storm in blades between coups is so weird to play

gotta get used to it

[vale pine]

oh there is no finisher before cooldowns too

so hey

[steel zinc]

how long?

[vale pine]

like 10-20 sec before 90 sec cooldowns come up

[swift tinsel]

Farm those sht stacks baby

Hold dat coup

[steel zinc]

really we just farm sht stacks?

since when? 😄

[hazy breach]

11.1

[vale pine]

^

[swift tinsel]

^

[vale pine]

so ye

also cold blood 2nd finisher in dance

pre pull symbols for supercharger

and whatever some people do to game disoriented strikes

🙈

[swift tinsel]

2nd finisher as in coup or sectech?

or wym

[vale pine]

2nd secret

ye

[swift tinsel]

ah, was gonna say thats a new cook

[vale pine]

its something not super intuitive for many non sub players

there is also the "one storm in dance"

[swift tinsel]

was possible whispers of cb for 2nd coup (assuming tier set was working as intended)

[vale pine]

and other cooks

its like

[left ledge]

You can also just not give a fuck and send

I’ve done that all of farm

[vale pine]

subtlety is a soup of min/maxes

[ripe flame]

as someone trying to get better as sub, the storm part and most of the little optimizations for trickster is mostly what fucks my brain

[swift tinsel]

shadowcraft refund takes care of a good amount of coup -> 2nd coup

in blades

[left ledge]

What storm part

For next tier?

[swift tinsel]

and if you farm a lil sht for outside-dance coups it helps to not have to spam storm/toss

[vale pine]

oh ye shadowcraft

[swift tinsel]

or vanish

[slate marlin]

if you get the cds sequence down u already mastered 85% of the spec, just master that anf then slowly introduce minmaxes

[vale pine]

one of the questions i get a lot in dms

[swift tinsel]

there's a few mitigating factors to make it feel less bad

[vale pine]

"why do i get full combo points"

[ripe flame]

I think I poorly worded what I'm trying to say but yes, like this tier the don't finish before cds or saving coups and stuff like that

[vale pine]

shadowcraft is... not easy to understand

[swift tinsel]

"bc you were a good rogue, its your reward"

[left ledge]

I mean this tier you can literally spam rupture outside of cooldowns

And parse 95+

[swift tinsel]

"headpats"

ye shadowcraft is kinda wordy

[vale pine]

lol

[swift tinsel]

that's why I have my cp aura color coded

I see yellow ring around cps, I know Im getting refund

[left ledge]

It’s much easier to understand when sub falls into those conditions than trying to flat out understand them

As you play the spec

You can get a feel for when shit is gonna hit the fan in 3-4 gcds

[ripe flame]

Yea I just havent played in a long time plus a new hero spec to learn and some of the optimizations feel weird af

[vale pine]

we understand ^^

[leaden plover]

did blizzo just skip class changes this week?

[left ledge]

Forget optimizing coup for now

If you’re coming back

[vale pine]

but most of the optimizations are optional

[left ledge]

Just focus on the core cd rotation

[steel zinc]

Oh I just did it on vexxie

[left ledge]

Optimizing coup should come when you can autopilot subs baseline

And fuck this tier set btw

Clown ass rules of not being able to press anything but rupture because I have 8 stacks and my cds come up in 15 seconds

[swift tinsel]

and you get even more gamba with the next one!

yeehaw

[runic trail]

I like how all the rogue tier sets were initially met with, 'oh hey, this seems cool'

And then we saw the implementation

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

I mean I'll take it over the extra random reset chance

[runic trail]

I remember being like, 'oh, fatebound 90 seconds, cool'

Then I found out it doesn't work

[hazy breach]

Its not even the tier that made it worth, it was just worth in general

Not attacking to stack up sht before flag is worthwhile, and for aoe you just make sure you have ruptures up on all targets

[steel zinc]

but we only farm sht stacks in st?

Because in aoe that makes no much sense I guess

or?

[hazy breach]

Well in st it takes forever to build cp

In aoe you get it in a single storm

So being afk is worse, as you lose a lot more cdr

[steel zinc]

yeah ok

thought so

makes sense

[left ledge]

Yeah it’s fine to build up sht, but being locked into only pressing rupture can feel like shit in many scenarios where there isn’t only a single target available

[steel zinc]

This only works once right? So on trash in raid you just send naked sectech and after that nothing to get the unseenblade stacks faster. So if you wipe its gg

[hazy breach]

Lasts through death

So you can use it before you wipe too

[vale pine]

^

[hazy breach]

But swapping zones clears it

[warm marlin]

And also changing to the vanish opener if you specifically also did the disorient thing

[steel zinc]

holy so gotta prep the sectech during wipe

I just did it on trash

[wary plover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[merry agate]

Get ready for some more BP stonks my friends

[vale pine]

just in time

XD

jokes aside, i don't know if rogue will get that many changes

[swift tinsel]

nah they're gonna leave us with a weird set again

or they fix sectech clones winning streak bug but leave s3 4pc as-is lol

[steel zinc]

wait what? got the actual link pls?

[swift tinsel]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/psa-the-ptr-is-not-down-dornogal-is/2137094/5

[steel zinc]

tyvm

yeah you had to login to dornogal

[swift tinsel]

new build SoonTM

[dull sierra]

new build? o.0

[steel zinc]

and had 10 sec to get to the main city

[swift tinsel]

would be highly surprised to see any rogue notes or find any fixes

[merry agate]

Dunno where i saw it...Twitter?

Tier list where sub was in "Perpetual crybaby victim" tier

Hit it on the nail

[swift tinsel]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[left ledge]

More bp buffs

Thanks balance team

I know you got me covered

[swift tinsel]

add another 25% to ds 2pc

but still don't have it match Symbols duration

[merry agate]

Fatal Intent damage increased by 1000% 🙏

You gonna play DS and you gonna like it

[swift tinsel]

imagine if fatal still stacked all the way until it procs

kekw

or if the plague damage portion of the tree worked with lingering

[vale pine]

this hurts to look at

[swift tinsel]

fixed

better or worse than the will smith spaghetti ai video

[bleak night]

that was the only use of ai i will accept

outside of dancing cat gifs

https://tenor.com/view/gatinbailandoepico-gif-10319434041843185451

[spring beacon]

hey ppl been out of the sub game for awhile can someone tell me if this looks decent? this was a +12 dfc

[warm marlin]

BP pretty low

[shell willow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

BP extremely low I should say

though it kind of depends on how your tank pulled it

should be top 3 maybe even number 1

[spring beacon]

He pulled like someone whod never tanked before but i see what about the rest? Oh really i thought the nimble thing made evis do way moee

More

[hazy breach]

Blizzard just baiting you, most of the time you end up BPing anyway

BP does more damage than evis (including nimble) when you have 5 or more find weakness debuffs active

And technically (although minor) during blades its down to 3 find weakness or more

[warm marlin]

twi dev and melee are also kind of high, might not be getting enough cooldown windows in general or not maximizing them well

[spring beacon]

Oh holy moly gotta try that prio then!

Prop not i felt slow af on fingers

Been outlawing since sl s1 im way out of touch

[warm marlin]

i dont have a dfc that's more recent than may but heres a semi recent 12 floodgate for reference

bp strong

[spring beacon]

I see mhmm how many targets do u rupture?

[lapis hatch]

Just uncap trickster hero tree for nimble and blade flurry already

[warm marlin]

sorta depends on key level/how good your other dps are. i think in this one i was mostly just ripping cds after 1 or 2 casts since packs were just dying before flag even ran out

if things are dying slower u can spread it more

[spring beacon]

I see alright nice thanks for taking time explaining

[slate marlin]

imagine if assa and sub get uncapped blade flurry before outlaw

[smoky geyser]

Isn't caustic uncapped?

[hazy breach]

Its not

Softcapped at 5

[smoky geyser]

But still does some dmg to all targets, just decreases at some rate beyond 5.

[hazy breach]

It damages all targets

It just does less damage

[smoky geyser]

I thought when people talked uncapped, it was implied soft capped lol. Aren't most uncapped abilities like this?

[hazy breach]

Nah theres a bunch of literally uncapped spells

Like starfall, poison bomb, rain of fire

[bleak night]

uncapped, softcapped, and hardcapped are all specific terms

[smoky geyser]

Fair enough

[hazy breach]

Or well

Everything that does aoe is capped at 20 targets

[warm marlin]

im a personal fan of hardcapped, soft capped, uncapped, and true uncapped

[bleak night]

uncap deez

[graceful rock]

Are these BP conditions new or have I been doing this whole season wrong

[bleak night]

[warm marlin]

the 5 find weakness thing has been the case for a few months I think, though it wasn't really widespread info. the 3 fw thing in blades is newish

[graceful rock]

My weekly 12s

[alpine wraith]

btw did they fix the bug of tier affecting only first coup instead or second

[hazy breach]

Nop

[swift tinsel]

no fixes for either set

[alpine wraith]

ehehe

[swift tinsel]

maybe it comes with today's supposed new build, who knows

not holding out hope tho lol

[steel zinc]

a weekend build what could go wrong

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/trash-garbage-pile-welcome-gif-5346947976611020031

[spiral sierra]

is that new york?

[north schooner]

i get them you know, why fix something when the tier will be obsolete in like 7 months? they are just being efficient

[swift tinsel]

ptr

[spiral sierra]

even worse!

[north schooner]

just push the patch, go home for the weekend, and everything will be alright 👍 🏄‍♀️ 🏄‍♂️

[astral axle]

surely they just left out rogue by accident, right guys?

[swift tinsel]

surely they couldn't list all of the things they fixed for rogue without making everyone else jealous

https://tenor.com/view/nodding-kermit-uh-huh-gif-19083131

prayers for at least one fix when servers come back up

[steel zinc]

Cool 0 rogue notes

Now guys doom

[runic sequoia]

Yeah if they could fix everything to do with coup that would be great

[vestal escarp]

Todays build chat

Totally

[swift tinsel]

they never list anything for sub anyways, we got what, 4 bullet points in the entire cycle so far?

[vestal escarp]

Any minute now

[leaden plover]

its out, no rogue change

[swift tinsel]

iirc they didn't even list when they changed the 2pc/4pc

idr if it was when they buffed all three %'s

or went from reset to strike twice

[kind bluff]

-.- I love being a sub rogue.

[swift tinsel]

if we got literally nothing fix-wise, what the fuck

[leaden plover]

just how it is

[kind bluff]

Even our class tuning is stealthy

[runic trail]

That was just part 1 of the tuning notes

Surely

[vestal escarp]

Any minute now.

[swift tinsel]

realz on vacation last two weeks

and next two weeks

[vestal escarp]

[alpine wraith]

maybe i try some things this weekend

[vestal escarp]

Any~ ~ minute~ ~ now~~

[runic trail]

He was just going out to get milk

[slate marlin]

can we get a hunter to flare on the patch notes pls

[grizzled bobcat]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[astral axle]

[winged phoenix]

Seems like the rogue dev vanished on yall 2

[swift tinsel]

can't even get the 11.2 servers to appear lol

all the dargons are gone

[formal helm]

Ah so not even a mention...

again

[north schooner]

everyone went home and they forgot to switch the servers on

4p still bugged and benefits first cdg

[swift tinsel]

yep

eb still locked by buff

what a fucking clown fiesta

no nimble blades

[leaden prairie]

your friend is specced outlaw guys

[swift tinsel]

I'm bout to spec not-rogue

[chrome palm]

no its not true... he wouldnt do that..

[swift tinsel]

ds 2pc bugs still there too

[north schooner]

good to go until midnight

[hazy breach]

Most of the time when they fix things it shows up as something in spelldata diffs, so you generally dont really need to go through the list one-by-one

[swift tinsel]

is that indexed somewhere

[north schooner]

there is a simc PR with the spell data dump with each patch but it's not up yet

[swift tinsel]

where does that drop, the simc site/github?

[north schooner]

github

[swift tinsel]

ty ty

[errant ferry]

Crazzzzzy I just saw the notes and we were ignored completely. So sad.

[glacial wind]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[slate marlin]

cloak got giga buffed

who would have called they were going to giga buff a mandatory piece of gear that was too weak, never happened this xp

[half comet]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[trail crest]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

does the dump show the changes themselves or do you have to parse them out by comparing spell data from a previous build or something like that

[north schooner]

The PR already does a diff with the target branch, so you can see which lines have changed

however, github's interface is atrocious and sometimes fails to low diffs of large files

but the class files are smallish

[swift tinsel]

what's PR? forgive my ignorance

[random mason]

Pull request

[swift tinsel]

ah, ty

[north schooner]

pull request, it's just a collection of file changes to be merged

[swift tinsel]

you wouldn't happen to have a link, would you?

[north schooner]

it's not up yet for the new patch

[swift tinsel]

gotcha

[warm marlin]

does look like there's a new vers neck though

so at least there's that

[swift tinsel]

a second neck has hit the ptr

[north schooner]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/pull/10381/files#diff-1cb3b60d68c43655a9a3f325bc455172d174514ee239d46004ebb00ab09b4a9c it looks like this (this is from a build 3 weeks ago)

[native zodiac]

was the new neck from flood high vers or high mastery?

[north schooner]

mastery

[warm marlin]

i believe that priory one is the only reasonable high vers neck we could equip

the others have icky haste

[native zodiac]

yeah i just logged on and checked aswell

the items look p good for sub in the lootpool tbf

[hazy breach]

Even if theres none it doesnt really matter, we can always just craft one

[native zodiac]

also true, was more thinking for the first 2 weeks where we are limited by crafts

[warm marlin]

ye just nice to have an option early from dungeons or whatever

[alpine wraith]

dungeons have ok loot this time around

[chrome palm]

If boes aren’t unobtainable then random stats is good for rogue

But random stats + bop will be horrible lol

[random mason]

Is there random stat BoP?