subtlety

[swift tinsel]

Ye

Storm or toss

[hollow spear]

Toss

[swift tinsel]

Storms more damage but slightly more energy

So maybe worth to toss outside dance etc when energy is a bit tighter

Probs doesn’t matter either way

Since you can still finish on <6 bc coup scales linearly

[hollow spear]

I think I'll choose one and that's that

[swift tinsel]

And if 2nd coup isn’t buffed by tier set it matters even less

[hollow spear]

Still too funny that they couldn't even get that one right

[swift tinsel]

it's tradition

[hollow spear]

Still wondering if it being the wrong way round is beneficial or not

[swift tinsel]

if they made the 2nd coup enabling buff something unique from 4stack EB they could attribute the dmg buff to that

[swift tinsel]

2nd coup being buffed by 1st coups flawless form + damage buff from 4pc

would be nice

[hollow spear]

True

[swift tinsel]

living in funny times currently

and perpetually

[hollow spear]

Perpetuum subtile

[swift tinsel]

the urge to send the forbidden ping is real, just to ask if its on the docket

they're at least aware of it

[hollow spear]

Yeah would be good to manage expectations to a degree, but alas

[swift tinsel]

I've bug reported in game and in the ptr forum so I've done my part lol

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-cry-one-piece-mid-mid-piece-one-mid-gif-3938984731501782050

[clever delta]

its already late

gonna rock sub rogue on mop

i did get keys on ptr, my rotation is already flawless

idk what to do before season3

[vale pine]

good luck

[vestal escarp]

cata is over

bro??????????

[swift tinsel]

MoP classic isn't live yet

so its still under Cata

should be in ~2.5hrs tho

[vale pine]

but will be soon

[swift tinsel]

was in response to the 'cata is over', should have replied to it mb

[vale pine]

haha

is mop release today?

[swift tinsel]

yeah, little over two hours from now

[tawny yacht]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[ashen ibex]

Anyone has the feedback forum link?

for ptr 11.2?

[swift tinsel]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/c/in-development/ghosts-of-karesh-ptr/325

[hollow spear]

Just like all of Mafic's posts and you're gucci, Casual

[ashen ibex]

mafic is writing on cd or some shit

[swift tinsel]

its his literal life

[north schooner]

he could easily start a cult with so many fans

[runic trail]

He's gotta be in this discord somewhere

[swift tinsel]

its gotta be under a different name

I've checked lol

[runic trail]

Yeah I just tried searching for him

[carmine portal]

Who mentions mafic the most?

Eyes on the one who does

[ripe flame]

Imagine that plot twist

[swift tinsel]

there's mention of him back in 2020

the old lore

[north schooner]

he was here guys, mafic is ryukage's alter ego

[runic trail]

[carmine portal]

Are we all mafic

[keen dome]

I should start just mentioning a poison toggle in every rogue thread on there

Start my own cult of rogue changes

[swift tinsel]

he's convinced anyone who disagrees with him is @finite carbon 's alt

[runic trail]

Finish all your posts with

💜 💜 💜

Damn, how many alts does tired from work have

[swift tinsel]

probs a few dozen by now

[brittle plinth]

I missed you so much

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[north schooner]

outlaw still has this and for free

[ashen ibex]

surely reset was to fix sub bugs

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[swift tinsel]

will check after work but likely a big ol zero

[finite carbon]

you dare ping me in this unholy place

im a pirate

not a ninja

[runic trail]

Red name

[swift tinsel]

red name says what

[runic trail]

I have doubts.

[finite carbon]

sh

thats my cover

im a sneaky pirate

[swift tinsel]

Assassination alt confirmed

[finite carbon]

im in stealth

preparing my crackshotwindow

[swift tinsel]

you mean dispatch window

why roll the bones when you can roll dispatch and bte together

[finite carbon]

no rtb to rng apparently

and its the reason why bladerush is lowdam

[swift tinsel]

based

[finite carbon]

:)

[vestal escarp]

go casual write a wall of text

[swift tinsel]

only true outlaws spec blade rush

[vestal escarp]

show em

[finite carbon]

casual reading a mafic thread?

holy shit

[steel zinc]

I hope for aoe buffs

Like nimble 100% damage

and maybe bug fixes

or bp and evis buffs

[upper narwhal]

imagine if Nimble was just better on 2-8 targets like the intention 🏄‍♂️ 🏄‍♀️

bugfixes are hard tho buff it by 5%

[steel zinc]

5% aint enough

if we had actual aoe damage

[upper narwhal]

but what about another 5%?

[steel zinc]

since funnel isnt our thing anymore

I think nimble should do alteast 75%

flat 100% makes it easier

and work with blades but well

[upper narwhal]

if we buff it by 5% every tier it might be relevant in the last titan

[steel zinc]

like in raid sub is fine not great just fine

but idk mm hunter fdk doing omega dps st and aoe

[graceful crown]

and spriest

[vestal escarp]

i want sectech buffs

giga nuclear evil face

[upper narwhal]

I want my clones back give me back my clones

[swift tinsel]

and also fix its aoe scaling

[vestal escarp]

actually going by tooltip

it should just be removed

the cap

but they chicken at blizzard

🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔

clunk clunk

[swift tinsel]

truly uncapped sectech

[vestal escarp]

we truly are sandgabbed by the higher ups

[graceful crown]

uncapped sectech would make sub meta

pog

[runic trail]

Uncapped sectech in cooldowns on a big pull

[vestal escarp]

bettered baseline sub would slap so hard with DS

in keys

i mean bettered baseline talents

[swift tinsel]

and DN affecting BP

that change alone would be huge

[carmine portal]

[graceful crown]

tbh i wouldnt like sub in meta

[carmine portal]

This emote makes me laugh every time i see it

[graceful crown]

haha yeah its nice

[vestal escarp]

a lot of ppl want that

but i think it would be massive jank

you can cast storm and bp without a target

what do you mark/ub?

[swift tinsel]

current target

if you don't have one it auto-targets so mini skill expression

emphasis on mini

[vestal escarp]

erm

[swift tinsel]

plus a deathstalker should know their next target in advance

lore

[steel zinc]

imo a dream would be if each spec had two hero talents that do not share one with other specs

would just make tierset balance harder but that could actually be a feature

[swift tinsel]

I'd even settle for one fully functional smoothed out tree

without 3 redundant buffs

or pure shit aoe gameplay

[pliant topaz]

its more like 9 not 5 but yea

[swift tinsel]

can't even get a finished spec tree tho so

[steel zinc]

all trickster aoe bugs are 9%?

Thats then actually enough or just flat out buff nimble

[pliant topaz]

no nimble buff isnt 5

goin from 60 ->65 isnt a 5% buff

m,ore like 9

[steel zinc]

yeah

[north schooner]

8,3333333333333333333333333333333333333333% still very funny that it was buffed less than BP even though it's already struggling against it. Unless they are ok with it because you still CdG and build to cleave a bit

[placid crown]

Hello, i need help, as soon as i am close to an ennemy, my rogue stops his invisibility

without doing anything

[graceful crown]

when it stops his invisibility, starts autoattacking?

u re using a macro?

[placid crown]

no i just walk near ennemies

not doing anything else

and it puts myself out of invisibility

[graceful crown]

if you re very close they will see you

probablity is very high

[leaden prairie]

ok honest question to sub rogue players

you guys all hate m+ right

[west tide]

i love doing 10s for my weekly cache

[weak bridge]

I love m+

[placid crown]

no no i mean i am main sub rogue for more than one year, i am playing on an alt, it's the first time it does this to me, ennemies dont even see me, they dont attack me

[graceful crown]

oh wow

[hazy breach]

I do not

[leaden prairie]

ok but

[glacial hinge]

We love to be depressed in m+ but feel we are more raid oriented

[keen dome]

M+ is fun

[leaden prairie]

how come you guys always mega doom about m+ performance

[graceful crown]

i tried sub, but doing ruptures outside of cds is disgusting for me, i stopped playing it

[leaden prairie]

sub does mroe than outlaw and i got gaslight into thinking it was the worse spec in the game again !

who did this

[weak bridge]

It was ross

Always ross

[finite carbon]

[leaden prairie]

no some of you arent straight with me

same shit in raid

[graceful crown]

do you have an aura or something that can deal aoe dmg when an enemy is relatively close?

like a buff of that area or somethin

[leaden prairie]

but raid its ok I understand sub in raid now

[hazy breach]

Ye theres some moonkin type shit in here sometimes ye

[placid crown]

literally nothing

[smoky geyser]

Sub ptr or sub live?

[stiff spear]

Wait wait, is SUb actually blasting on PTR M+?

[hazy breach]

Compared to other rogue specs ye

[leaden prairie]

idk if i had to bet on a rogue spec

[graceful crown]

and in your main it doesnt happen? xD

[plush roost]

Sub is bad because backstab soup isnt doing the same damage as my cds smhmyhead class is DEAD

[leaden prairie]

it would be sub in m+

[hazy breach]

Compared to mm no

[smoky geyser]

Mm op in ptr

[leaden prairie]

i mean sub is always weird cause 1min30 cds but

idk

you make it work

[plush roost]

Its pretty strong on ptr lowkey

[hazy breach]

But idk assa is leaning even more heavily into its "if i dont have funnel im completely useless" arc

[placid crown]

no

[leaden prairie]

ye

idk

im unsure how much that is an issue tbf

[placid crown]

it's the 4th alt rogue i have, it's the first time i observe this

[leaden prairie]

i feel like people got used to pulling struffs on bosses now

[hazy breach]

I mean so is unholy and roughly moonkin and arcane mage too

[graceful crown]

strange behavior

[leaden prairie]

bro

unholy

if i speak

they even had an article

on wowhead

[hazy breach]

Theres some where you cant though

[leaden prairie]

about how doomed unholy was

after the changes

its littealy better than outlaw ??

it does normal spec damage

i got gaslight again

[hazy breach]

Last boss dawnbreaker gonna be fun as assa

[leaden prairie]

ye

at least assa and outlaw have that in common

dog st

[weak bridge]

Bring back ss evis buff 💪

Imagine with trickster no

[hazy breach]

Assa does like 75% more damage to the prio target if theres 8 mobs around it

Its actually kinda whack

[leaden prairie]

i have this funny one

[leaden prairie]

outlaw does like 10% less prio damage

prio spec

[hazy breach]

Cant you swap to fatebound to pump those numbers up

Make it 20%

[leaden prairie]

ye haha

bro

fb plays ks even now

its prolly more

💀

[jovial cipher]

Ptr balance is dumb they nerf some spec by 3% and buff others by 50 like tf

[hazy breach]

Well ye thats ptr

No need to follow the balance that closely, things will change

[leaden prairie]

i jut now realized

[weak bridge]

I feel like ptr is more egregious this time around because of hero talent spec tiers

[leaden prairie]

its the last season

ptr is over

[jovial cipher]

Ye but idk this one is weird

Still 3 weeks will see

[leaden prairie]

we officially went an entire expac with 0 itrations on hero talents

[hazy breach]

Yep

[leaden prairie]

cool

[graceful crown]

Hero talents in 2k25

[hazy breach]

Very cool indeed

[leaden prairie]

surely they fix them for 12.0

maybe we get a dev back

we can trade rogue dev for a mage dev

[graceful crown]

Wait: Rogue talents in 2k25

[leaden prairie]

even half a mage dev

[jovial cipher]

The frost one take it or leave it

[weak bridge]

Outlaw = 6 letters
2 hero talents
6x2 =12.0

[graceful crown]

Nostradamus :O

[jovial cipher]

Sub gonna get change in 6.0 then

Wod classic soon

Nvm Im dumb

It aint sub

It’s subtlety

[graceful crown]

Legion CLASSIK

?????

[weak bridge]

How long you think blizz keeps up the classic meme

[jovial cipher]

Everlasting loop

[weak bridge]

Like wtf they gonna do for wod

They gonna make content for it?

[placid crown]

ok so if i have this dagger on me, it puts me out of stealth when i am close to any ennemy https://www.wowhead.com/item=237787/nightfall-darkcasters-kris

[weak bridge]

big doubt

[jovial cipher]

Wod classic in 6 months so we skip it for legion classic peak gaming

[weak bridge]

[jovial cipher]

[weak bridge]

Peak rtb gameplay and legendary sub boots

I’ll play legion classic just to play dfa again

[jovial cipher]

Just get good so u drop the bis legendary first

[hazy breach]

Thats an intellect dagger

[placid crown]

yeah i saw this but idc it's just an alt to farm old raids

i mean now i do care cuz it's fukin annoying to be out of stealth for no reason

[graceful crown]

probably a bug of that passive

try to watch if you re nearby an enemy u steal intellect or something

yep, its that dagger

blizz issues

[placid crown]

nah i dont even steal anything, i mean nothing nex appears in stats or in auras

but yea.. blizz issues

[steel shard]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

Did this get posted a couple weeks back in assa?

[ripe flame]

yep

time is a flat circle

[terse ruin]

Hey mates, on PTR atm, BP at how much targets ? +5 or +7 ?

[steel zinc]

5 fw is up on them 3 when blades and fw is up

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qQV87Rn5ha6vJc5DTsUg6v guys we are doomed. Warlock simming close to 7 mill

[terse ruin]

fw ? excuse me I don't have the game in english haha

[hazy breach]

Find weakness

The top talent of the tree

[terse ruin]

Nice thx

[steel zinc]

I really hope for more tuning

[terse ruin]

and which builder in aoe with 5 target ? SS or Shuriken ?

In S2 always used SS

except in very big packs

[hazy breach]

Theres no difference at all from s2 in how you play sub rogue

You can use storm inbetween the Coups from the tier set during blades if you want as thats a minor gain, but thats the only thing

[rotund pawn]

can you please link WL sim or send in DMs

[solemn creek]

Also curious to see (even tho everything will change soon)

[terse ruin]

talents don't change in S3 ?

same build ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[random hare]

@vale pine i had a rotational change for amp windows in my key pushing a while ago this season that i’d like to discuss with you about

I’ve noticed a major dps gain but im unsure how it’ll sim

[fallow nimbus]

How much energy costs toss?

[hazy breach]

40

[steel zinc]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qpN8Pgs-VuD_ckFw3eMgASpi8uGd3h-cYAXzAjPZSzg/edit?gid=1774556142#gid=1774556142

wip

[rotund pawn]

ty

[alpine wraith]

you can post it in the #tc-research on the sub thread

[brazen steppe]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm depot]

for gally are u guys saving dances fortechnician sets?

[warm marlin]

are you progging, trying to parse, or just vibe reclearing

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach what was that copy pasta from zeroess about boomys

something chicken

wanna link it to a guildie

pig chicken?

[hazy breach]

Zerocool, not zeroes

Cant find the VOD link but it was "-90s because chicken is pig"

[frosty thunder]

Did they ever fine tune tfd on ptr or is it still jank as it is now

[steel zinc]

Kinda. You send cds right after the first kick so that the 2nd set of sectech lands on the adds or if the adds live to long send while the boss is dragged to the adds use cloak and just stand in the frontal bait.
Do that for the 1,3rd, p2 set of adds. Sub rogue on gally is to nuke adds and do medium boss dam. During prog sub nearly soloed first,3, and first p2 add set

[tribal blade]

haha classic

[warm depot]

word ty

going for worlds last ce and i got called in cuz roster boss LMFAO

[steel zinc]

In the mythic gally boosts I do I send cds on kick so 2nd sectech with cb kills them. Since dps is so high rn. But that highly depends on comp.

[steel zinc]

You literally can play any dps just have a mix of range and melee

You have ~30% more damage then rwf kill. Everyone could play one button rotation and just play mechanics and you win

[warm depot]

i’m too stubborn to ever play anything other than sub

[steel zinc]

Sub is good on gally

Like top 5 specs

[warm depot]

sick

yeah i guess i’ll see tmrw videos didn’t look all that bad

[lilac stag]

Last set of soak circles is usually the pain point in prog right now

[warm depot]

the bad overlap?

[lilac stag]

bad baits and people can’t get to them

[warm depot]

that seemed like the only part that might be aids

yeah hopefully we have 2 roars and wrt so maybe it’ll be fine

is shadowstep still bugged btw

[lilac stag]

stun rotation on p3 adds may wipe ya as well

[warm depot]

monkas

[short radish]

based

[warm depot]

my guild gives me shit for it but when i can do mechanics better and still dps who’s the real loser (still me because i play this spec)

[lilac stag]

lulz. Getting recruited in LFR on shaman.

[warm depot]

LMAO

[lilac stag]

674-678 ilvl. i'm 649 haha

@tribal blade wtf is this dmg?

[steel zinc]

aoe blind is op and you can carry. At this point adds just blow up

[lilac stag]

it's more of people DRing stuns and just being bad/learning

prog at this point in the tier is a different animal

[steel zinc]

I admire the hustle progging until the last week of the tier

I would kill myself

[vale pine]

best is to post in #1065728795455266888, can also just write here or dm me

[zenith egret]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[zenith egret]

Do we have 11.2 Sims ?

[alpine wraith]

kinda initial ones but anything can change

[vale pine]

sooon™

[steel zinc]

THEY fixed first dance

on ptr

fuuu

as soon as you leave combat now (without vanish) it instantly starts counting

[vale pine]

nice

[steel zinc]

thats big

actually now a really good talent that does not have anything clunky

should be updated in bugs

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[alpine wraith]

wait for real

[steel zinc]

yes

Just did an ara 12 on ptr

I left combat it instantly started counting

the vanish sturm macro doesnt work anymore but that is good imo

but standard leaving combat works

[alpine wraith]

oh boi

now does it reset randomly if others enter combat?

[steel zinc]

as long as your in stealth and ooc it counts

[chrome palm]

I noticed this as well

[hollow spear]

Good stuff

[steel zinc]

comapred to live you just leave combat and it instantly starts counting

[alpine wraith]

yea but i mean does it randomly reset like it does now or just keeps counting

[chrome palm]

Did you have trouble resetting with vanish on ptr

[steel zinc]

for example first boss ara dead and your running to the bridge. The boss died and it was already counting

[leaden prairie]

That's gonna be so good in ara when you leave combat a total of 2 times in the whole dungeon

[steel zinc]

it was a pug so idk worked fine I guess

[chrome palm]

Last time I did keys on ptr I had trouble resetting with vanish

[alpine wraith]

this may actually enable double vanish on some places

[steel zinc]

you cant but only did like 1 dungeon after this mornings ptr update

[alpine wraith]

to get more tfd

would be funny

ahaha

sad that it does not work on bosses tho

[steel zinc]

it doesnt work on trash I think either. But was a +12 everything died to fast to really test the vanish stuff

but doesnt matter its not working as the tooltipp says

[hollow spear]

Let's see what the next balance patches bring. Some sims seem kinda off to me if you compare them to actual ptr testing.

[steel zinc]

rn warlock sims like 7 mill and assa 4 mill and sub close to 5

so its all over the place

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qQV87Rn5ha6vJc5DTsUg6v (big grain of salt) just scaled everything to max itemlevel even crafted

[hollow spear]

I personally haven't seen that gap, neither myself nor in streams

You never know how much is going on

[chrome palm]

Last time I simmed it, shadow focus was better than imp storm even on 2t patchwerk

[hollow spear]

Uhdk also sims like 20-25% higher than what you have here. I'd understand frost dk, but uhdk?

Doesn't tfd also outsim wm by quite a bit?

[alpine wraith]

tfd is hard to put into slice or anything

for st it is close at like 4 or 3 mins but also depends on if you use forge instead of prism

with prism in raid you wont use wm mainly because that first dance does not have a strong use

[chrome palm]

I think tfd is even competitive with current gear on far longer fights when prepulling disorienting and doing Evis before rupture in opener

[alpine wraith]

yea i always play tfd

because with my mastery it is always better kinda

[chrome palm]

Wym

Are you sitting on a lot of mastery or something

[alpine wraith]

but the diff between it and wm is not huge anyway

yea i have like 31k

actually 29 unbuffed i think

because belt changed

[chrome palm]

Wm also kinda munches your shit too right?

Like sht

[alpine wraith]

it is just not that good yea

[chrome palm]

Honestly rework wm to be self-skyfury

Or a weak version

[runic trail]

Didn't hear you properly, goremaws now gives that instead.

[steel zinc]

yeah but that isnt like 500k

[chrome palm]

Goremaw increase auto attack by x % over y seconds

Holy

[steel zinc]

you sure? You do strike flag evis strike rupture and then cds?

[chrome palm]

Yeah since you proc all the UBs ahead of time

[grave shore]

I saw little bigger sim with double use trinkets

[steel zinc]

you sure? It simmed for me lower

I mean this is just all scaled up itemlevel with new trinkets and new tier

[chrome palm]

You have 2 strikes and 1 stab before sec tech so the next finisher is coup 100%

And since that is three builders with premed, you’re likely to have sht for back to back coup

So good for new tier I imagine

[grave shore]

Sure but it was very little bigger , kinda 4,85

[steel zinc]

true good point

[chrome palm]

I guess unless you proc shadow craft after sec tech now that I think about it

Kinda cursed

Well you probably get 2pc proc before then anyways

[steel zinc]

what was the simc string again for turning off and on tierset?

[steel zinc]

What trinket was it or you have the sim?

[grave shore]

Araz's Ritual Forge

This one

[steel zinc]

gl getting that

if tuning stays this way 😄

[steel zinc]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sknm6s2uGTFvKgfXiCFyvj (grain of salt)

[hollow spear]

Idk what the purpose of moaning about sims at this point is

Last tier they've tuned balancing right until raid hit

[steel zinc]

because rn tuning is omega out of wack

[hollow spear]

So what

It's always been

[steel zinc]

yeah and we got nerfed 5% and then were dogshit

[steel zinc]

nah

never this late

[hollow spear]

I remember you last tier coping about them not nerfing us

Now you're back whining about us being weak and warlock being op

[tribal blade]

is that overall???

[minor relic]

So I've been dabbling into subtlety rogue and am getting better at it day by day. Though, yesterday I tried the 3v3 arena shuffle and was pretty much just clueless at what to do.. had people tell me I should learn my spec which is why I'm here lol. What am I missing in these longer drawn out battles and what is the (sub) rogues' role?

[sick sand]

Might be better to ask in pvp channel

[fallow nimbus]

You should ask in #pvp

[alpine wraith]

sub in pvp is about coordination

every time we did some dmg alone we got hammered

[fallow nimbus]

Because you could solo teams

[minor relic]

oh sorry

[alpine wraith]

tbh i was surprised they finally offed shadowy duel after 7 years of terror

i think evis has been at most nerfed by like 40%+ and sec tech 70% or so

wonder what numbers we have rn

i havent pvped in ages

[tribal blade]

even with the removal of shadowy duel i'm guessing sub rogue is still the cc bot of every match

you just run around cheaping everyone

[minor relic]

well that doesn't sound like any fun lol

[runic trail]

Nah, I love making other people not play the game

[minor relic]

back in the days i used to be assassination rogue and bursted the shit outta people

that's what I want lol

Everywhere I've raid that it's sub rogue that is the most 'bursty'

[brisk onyx]

I remember there is a database that can query the coefficient of ability in PVP

[hazy breach]

Nah double on-use aint it

[alpine wraith]

double on use wont be better overall dps very unlikelyt

[hazy breach]

The passive agi from something like pacemaker+the 90s use of prism is fairly close to the agi you get from forge and only slightly lower than maxed prism

If you need burst on pull you most likely just play forge+passive instead of double on-use

[alpine wraith]

antenna can get silly

[brisk onyx]

which one is forge?

[alpine wraith]

the 2 min one

[brisk onyx]

got it

[steel zinc]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[minor relic]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hollow spear]

Are sims "final" or do you have things cooking still?

[brisk onyx]

Is MoD bugged in PTR? i never see it when my fok/storm crit

[steel zinc]

mod?

[north schooner]

it seems to work until you use symbols (with rotten only maybe) then it breaks

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker

[north schooner]

and then respeccing fixes it but you can just break it the same way

ion would rather we don't play DS sub (and we are ok with that)

[hazy breach]

Presumably momentum of despair

[minor relic]

How often if at all do you use shuriken storm/ black powder as deathstalker sub?

Haven't seen it in any builds

[hazy breach]

Assuming its a pvp question id recommend #pvp

[brisk onyx]

I'll use DS on delves, pull a big pack and kill them fast

[north schooner]

well I submitted a bug report with how to reproduce the bug, so anytime between tomorrow and 5 years from now they might fix it

[hazy breach]

Just like we reported blades not working with nimble on alpha

[north schooner]

they are still working on it! It's getting fixed aaaaany moment now

[steel zinc]

insane that they didnt fix that yet

they fixed tbf first dance

[hazy breach]

Took them until undermine to fix blades working with sectech so

[steel zinc]

its really good now

as soon as you are ooc on ptr the countdown starts

and counts down as long as the rogue is ooc

[hazy breach]

Not sure its numerically stronger after the fix if you cant do the vanish incombat thing

But ye neat

[north schooner]

did they confirm nimble & SB not interacting as a bug? Or is that just an assumption?

[steel zinc]

i tried is not working really

but in some dungeons its just now super goated like dawnbreaker

every pack you have a big dance

[plush roost]

It makes me feel less shit about utility vanish !

[hazy breach]

Well the assumption is that "making your attacks do 20% more damage" is gonna make my attack do 20% more damage

[north schooner]

flurry attacks are notorious about no working as you'd expect. So I wouldn't be too surprised if that's intended and just a horrible intentional (non)interaction

[hazy breach]

It also just doesnt make any sense at all for it to not work

From a gameplay pov

As it makes our cooldown effectively useless on aoe

[north schooner]

yeah and it skews more towards BP

[steel zinc]

you already bp in aoe

So idk

Blades is in aoe already a meh cd

[north schooner]

yes but with blades you BP at an even lower target count

[steel zinc]

true yes

[north schooner]

which is nonsense from a design pov

[steel zinc]

I mean kinda makes a bit sense that in cds we switch finishers

not saying it shouldnt be fixed

[hazy breach]

If there was something that explicitly said BP would do more during blades yes

But there isnt

[steel zinc]

true yes

also just shows hero talents are just slapped onto normal talents without thinking about their interaction

[north schooner]

all 3 rogue hero trees suffer from this

[hazy breach]

Dw theyll iterate on the hero talents as the expansion progresses

[lilac stag]

rogue iteration. fixing positive bugs

[steel zinc]

worse part is they will 100% stick to the names of the talents and not change the core of them

so deathstalker will forever be a pain

[north schooner]

and the re-introduce them as set bonuses

[steel zinc]

the trickster tierset is goated

that should be a capstone

[lilac stag]

we’re in Shadowlands design mode again

[north schooner]

it's still very funny even if it's a fun bonus

[hazy breach]

Idk it cant be goated with the "not being able to stack escalating during the 4p" thing

[steel zinc]

they are 100% understaffed and have a to tight schedule to fix things

I bet they are 100% of the time in crunch mode

[steel zinc]

I assume that gets fixed

😄

[lilac stag]

not my problem

[steel zinc]

[hazy breach]

Just like the undermine tierset will be fixed?

Any day now

[lilac stag]

we just suffer for it

[steel zinc]

I even forgot what was bugged

what was wrong with that again?

[hazy breach]

The shadow damage doesnt work on sectech

[steel zinc]

I remember not working on sectech sth

[steel zinc]

but that does work just 50% of the time. So gamba raid gamba dmg? 😄

[tepid trellis]

fixed next week trust

[hazy breach]

New tierset is MASSIVELY more gamba than the old one

Like 5x as much rng from the set

[north schooner]

they are focusing on housing but I don't see how that could affect class design, unless class design people are helping out with that

[tepid trellis]

im fine with a lil rng, as long as the spec doesent feel like horseshit when you get subpar rng, like sepulcher sub

here its just an extra coup cast with finisher dmg after it

[steel zinc]

w00t

[hazy breach]

I think it will be fine too

[tepid trellis]

feel doesent really change

which is the important part

imagine high rolling the dmg amps tho Eleem

[lilac stag]

stealthi enhancement main 11.2.

[steel zinc]

The set 100% inspired shadowcraft

[tepid trellis]

fck no lol

[hazy breach]

2 strikes = coup

[tepid trellis]

we have 2 shamans

in the guild

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/gamba-gif-25945486

[runic trail]

Obtain a third

Become the third

[tepid trellis]

if im ever rerolling away from rogue

its to havoc

[lilac stag]

I leveled mine this weekend since we maybe shamanless

[runic trail]

We had 4 eleshams in nerubar

Don't let your dreams be dreams

[steel zinc]

tried during farm sticking to rogue most likely 😄

[lilac stag]

button bloated but very fun

[steel zinc]

the rng of souls will kill you

[tepid trellis]

ill never like shaman

until totemic

is gone

needing a wa/addon to do more dps with totemic is fcking wild

so you can dismiss the totem

and recall it

[steel zinc]

thats 50% of all classes

[hazy breach]

Speaking of shadowcraft

[tepid trellis]

like wtf

[tepid trellis]

not remotely the same

[lilac stag]

Yeah the clear totem is funnie

[hazy breach]

There is a setup that doesnt run shadowcraft that seems to be simming alright in aoe

[tepid trellis]

to need an addon to resummon a totem

[steel zinc]

would make sense I guess it goes the dark brew route?

more bigger hits?

[lilac stag]

I’ve been just messing with it being bound to abilities

[median nacelle]

any dh mind using spectral sight on the sub rogue changes and buffs

[lilac stag]

not gonna happen

we are where we are

[median nacelle]

what if i say pls

just something

[lilac stag]

Assa has a tier set buff coming if I had to place a bet

[steel zinc]

assa looks horrible in sims

but well

[hazy breach]

Idk cant really buff it

Without it being jank ass hell in some way

[lilac stag]

when has that ever stopped anything?

[vestal escarp]

The spec was supposed to not function without shadowcraft

[alpine wraith]

shadowcraft is good but not super op in the grand scheme

with how much cp intake you have in aoe

but also tornado oh no

[vestal escarp]

The energy

[hazy breach]

Well you waste shadowcraft anyway with nado so

[steel zinc]

can u sure the build

I wanna try pls

[steel zinc]

As I thought goes dark brew route

[median nacelle]

tornado still exist, almost forgot

[alpine wraith]

as annoying as it is yea

[median nacelle]

make it no global

[hazy breach]

Nado atleast makes it so you have full coverage of FW for your first dance

[median nacelle]

ya

[hazy breach]

But idk the fw thing is just ass

[median nacelle]

fw baselined into active dance

[steel zinc]

remove fw???

[median nacelle]

or that

[alpine wraith]

fw and shadowed are the scourge

kill split dmg

FW is fine tbh just bastardized

nerfed by so much not even his mother recognizes him

[vestal escarp]

Nado PV not craft

[hazy breach]

Main reason fw is so janky is because of trickster

[vestal escarp]

Yep cursed bingo

[hazy breach]

If you play deathstalker you BP either way so

[vestal escarp]

If only we could play DS

[steel zinc]

no

[alpine wraith]

DS would be fine if mark and DN were not so ass

the mark hitting so hard feels wrong

[vestal escarp]

And if sub wasnt so ass

[alpine wraith]

i mean it is silly SoD pops 1 mark

and that is tier set worthy

[steel zinc]

gameplay wise its the most complete spec out of all 3

[haughty mural]

I’ll never play nado again with trickster not even if it’s ahead

[vestal escarp]

And yet you cant play DS because of baseline problems

Sure ok

[steel zinc]

that has more to do with ds being a hero talent that is just bad

even assa doesnt like it

its just good numbers wise

[haughty mural]

Assa also just kinda works with it

[vestal escarp]

Bro i think you're misguided

[haughty mural]

They don’t need to cancel marks and shit

[vestal escarp]

Assa will play ds for 3 tiers

Sub tried to half tier because of tuning and it was complete ass

[graceful osprey]

It’s okay, the devs will be all hands on deck to rework the entire rogue class in 12.0

[keen dome]

We'll get a tank spec

[runic trail]

Bard support spec

[keen dome]

rogue tank. So I can be the villain in keys

[north schooner]

with GH-like mechanics

[keen dome]

rush in, die, leave the key

[runic trail]

Only cos fatebound is just... Not good

[hazy breach]

Half a tier for not even half the bosses

[void ocean]

always wanted main hand Lute

[runic trail]

We don't need full reworks, the base is alright, just needs some things tweaked IMO

[north schooner]

sorry guys I only 99%ed my solo

[hazy breach]

Ye sub is really fun to play on ST

[wheat edge]

Are there any rules on holding coup if flag is like 15-20 seconds away, and whats the play instead, backstabbing on max combo points?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[wheat edge]

Bruh

[keen dome]

Just need a few tweaks. A few shifts. Delete PV. More purple. bingo winzo

[runic trail]

I think its just backstabbing but don't quote me on this

[hollow spear]

Quoted.

[void ocean]

i think rupture is also fine

[runic trail]

What the actual fuck

[keen dome]

get quote'd

[wheat edge]

Yeah I was hitting a dummy and it felt weird but if its correct then i guess

[hollow spear]

It's an option if you're not inting away your cdr

[keen dome]

What's the actual damage dif if you just send coup whenever versus holding, if that's something that's known?

[hollow spear]

Not that big afaik

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-steve-carell-michael-scott-thats-what-she-said-gif-20446601

[hollow spear]

But ig with the amount of damage amps in the raid...

[keen dome]

'cos I've just been sending it whenever

I guess in S3 it'll matter more

[void ocean]

same, i was like fck coup, it will come back

[hollow spear]

It's a grower, not a shower 😭

[void ocean]

and i was right

it always came back

[runic trail]

In my brain I know I shouldn't hit the glowy button. My heart says to hit it

[keen dome]

same

glowy button gets hit

[hollow spear]

Sounds like a trump quote

[runic trail]

[hollow spear]

At least the second part

[hazy breach]

Next tier, cant be arsed simming it for the current tier but should be slightly less, probably about 1.5% if i had to guess

[hollow spear]

Make pre disorienting baseline

[keen dome]

oh, that's good to know. thanks!

[hollow spear]

Thx bye

[keen dome]

Makes sense for next tier it's more important

[wheat edge]

Yeah I just assumed thats a bit strange since you wanna rupture after flag aswell right

[hollow spear]

Didn't expect it to be 2.6%

That's quite a lot

[void ocean]

WHAT, 1.5%?????

[tribal blade]

damn that's a lot

[keen dome]

time to practice not sending coup if flag is almost up

[tribal blade]

is that holding for every dance, or just for cds

[hollow spear]

That's way more than any Lashga gem/enchantment sim I've ever seen

[hazy breach]

That is removing my flagellation check from coup

[tepid trellis]

cant wait to storm in dance on single target as well

peak

[keen dome]

[hazy breach]

Couldnt get holding coup for dances to be worthwhile

[hollow spear]

The bot needs to try harder

[hazy breach]

Just proc shadowcraft refunds

[tribal blade]

hacha said there could be cursed tech with nado

[keen dome]

Makes sense for coup, I guess. Quicker flag stacks so more damage sooner, right?

[tribal blade]

at least in aoe

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/slv-gld-gif-18076827

[keen dome]

not coup, flag

[tribal blade]

since with nado you can get a storm between coups

[void ocean]

i mean do we care for flag dmg

[vestal escarp]

Also having all the flawless uptime in flag

[keen dome]

yeah

Packing it all in

[hollow spear]

We care for flag stacking fast

[tribal blade]

yeah it's really crazy amounts of flawless

in cds

[hazy breach]

Well the main thing is that if you dont get coup inbetween your first and second sectech your second sectech will be delayed by one finisher

[keen dome]

Right, yeah.

[alpine wraith]

yea if you dont play shadowcraft it may become a thing

sec tech coup coup then other things

kinda goes hard

[hollow spear]

But no shadowcraft won't be a thing in st

[alpine wraith]

you have 30 stacks of flag

tbh i would play shadowcraft anyway

[void ocean]

wait what

[vestal escarp]

You really cannot play without craft

Just try and untalent it

[void ocean]

im trying to figure out r u guys just missing a few commas or...

[vestal escarp]

Cant even send all dance globals

[hollow spear]

I'm missing a few braincells

[keen dome]

We're all orange cats sometimes

[alpine wraith]

problem with tornado is you also take your DD

and that one is kinda big

[vestal escarp]

For pv

[alpine wraith]

apart from krangling shadowcraft sometimes if not careful

[keen dome]

pv

[alpine wraith]

that is only if you play DB

im not a fan of db tbh

[tribal blade]

DB is a cool talent

just wish it did more

[keen dome]

delete FW, bake it into the rogue to always have regardless. Put DB as the first talent node

bam, I've fixed sub

[hollow spear]

Its cool but it's just very inconvenient

[alpine wraith]

that is kinda what i wanted from capstones i wish they did more

even shadowcraft and DM seem kinda missing something

and those are the decent ones

[tribal blade]

what if they rebuffed DM back up to 10%

[keen dome]

Why isn't Sylvanas dagger a capstone

[tribal blade]

heehee

[tribal blade]

TRUE

banshee's blight is so iconic

[alpine wraith]

i would not mind if DM was just use x diff abilities in dance then get a buff for like x secs

[keen dome]

Put DB at the FW node at the top, and put sylvanas dagger where DB is now

[alpine wraith]

instead of just a static one that last on dance

[void ocean]

smth like fdk and Pillar, u get fckton of +str buff just by doing main cd rotation

[tribal blade]

shadowcraft has way too much power in it too

[alpine wraith]

shadowcraft kinda does 3 things at the same time

[vestal escarp]

It carries the spec on its shoulders

[alpine wraith]

helps overcap gives energy and gives more sht gen

tbh i would like if we had mfd back with like 2 charges

or anticipation vs shadowcraft

[keen dome]

Anticipation would be really cool to see come back

[alpine wraith]

i dont like getting rng combo points

[keen dome]

Put it where Goremaw is

[tribal blade]

i really want anticipation back

i think it's such a cool talent

[alpine wraith]

i dont like a lot of the forced rng we have

for no reason

[keen dome]

It is and it fits Sub extremely well.

[alpine wraith]

when we were just planning then execution

[vestal escarp]

Shadow techniques and craft are the natural evolution of anticipation

[keen dome]

We're a planning burst finisher spec. Anticipation fits so well

[alpine wraith]

now it is proc this proc that

oh you didnt

you play the same but do 20% or more less dmg

[tribal blade]

anticipation is kind of what we're starting to do before cds right now

[alpine wraith]

when people play MoP sub they will open their eyes

sadly it is only decent last raid

[tribal blade]

where you afk to build up sht

[alpine wraith]

anticipation was not played that much in pve

because it was vs deeper and vigor

but now it would be so good

[vestal escarp]

Sims put it ahead since first tier

[alpine wraith]

like it was in pvp

[keen dome]

It'd make sense with modern sub though

[tribal blade]

it would work really well

[keen dome]

Also in M+

[tribal blade]

hell it would actually fix DS sub in part

[alpine wraith]

well people will try and see ehehe

[keen dome]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

because then you could strike at 6cps

and then it wouldn't go to waste

[alpine wraith]

it is not super bad but has some annoying things in many bosses

even on first tier

[vestal escarp]

Robot

[alpine wraith]

where you cant get good dances

[keen dome]

Also bring back uh

what was the talent that reset all cooldowns

Preperation?

[alpine wraith]

like the mogu guys or sha of fear

yea prep

[keen dome]

Another talent that'd fit the identiy of Sub really well imo

[wheat edge]

I think assa also got buffed for mop classic so will be interesting to see

[tribal blade]

spreadsheet gaming again

don't tell stealthi

[alpine wraith]

even the queen bug thing was super aids as sub

[keen dome]

10 minute cooldown, resets all cooldowns

[north schooner]

preparation was resetting fewer and fewer abilities each expansion

[alpine wraith]

yea prep got nerfed every time

[keen dome]

I imagine it's an absolute bullshit talent to balance around

[alpine wraith]

then deleted

[keen dome]

Since it's effectively going "The sub rogue can do their CD's twice in a row or anytime without any loss"

[alpine wraith]

well when FW was a big thing you basically had a cheat code

where you could vanish dance

and that was so much dmg

like doing 40m+ burst rn

[wheat edge]

Night elf having a 3rd FW window

[alpine wraith]

comparatively

NE was not that strong because outside dance you really didnt have the CP economy

like sure you get 1 ambush and then autos benefit from FW but at most you get 1 evis and some backstabs then evis

but also other racials were not strong anyway so idk

[wheat edge]

yeah I guess the only other racial that is kinda insane is troll during throne?

with the a lot of beast bosses and trolls doing 5% more dam to them

[tribal blade]

didn't know that was a thing, that's actually super busted

[north schooner]

just reading this is funny

[keen dome]

Hahaha

[wheat edge]

I still made both my warrior and rogue blood elves on mop

[tribal blade]

don't blame you, i went troll for a little just to try it and didn't have the best time

[alpine wraith]

it will be funny seeing people play sub in the first raids of MoP

it was not pretty

[tribal blade]

i went nelf this season, and i have to say incredible decision

meld was massive, esp as sin

[wheat edge]

yeah idk the most annoying part is the release overlap

like I level'd during pre-patch but now I kinda cba playing cause retail patch will drop after 1 reset

[tribal blade]

oh we've gotten to the point where rotations are getting complicated right

for mop classic

[wheat edge]

yeah mogushan vaults drops 1 week before retail patch

like idk why they decided on having a 3 month long pre-patch or whatever

[tribal blade]

the typical classic wow crowd is gonna have a rough time

[keen dome]

The launch cadence is real wild, yeah

[alpine wraith]

vaults was kinda easy

the hard one was terrace

but you needed to also clear the bug zone bitch zone

[keen dome]

I reclal MoP being a step up in raid difficulty, too?

[alpine wraith]

sub was good for the big bug that took extra dmg

[keen dome]

Garalooooon

[alpine wraith]

first 3 raids of mop were kinda easy

but ToT was hard

[tribal blade]

mop is the first expac with mythic raid difficulty too

[wheat edge]

have some irl friends that wanna try to make a 10 man so will hopefully try to get in on that for throne

[alpine wraith]

well i mean nowadays it wont be but cack then it was kinda

mythic on MoP was a joke

vs 25 or 10

you could 1 heal 1 tank garrosh

lul

[tribal blade]

ah ok

[keen dome]

Well, only in SoO right at the end

[tribal blade]

i legit did 1 mythic boss back then

[keen dome]

And it was busted

[alpine wraith]

it came too late

[keen dome]

My guild was the highest prog 25-man in SoO somehow

[alpine wraith]

i will never forget a legit GM entering the instance and making ThoK enrage

[keen dome]

Haha

[alpine wraith]

because people were going to just make him scream 24/7

and kill him

and they were like

NOPNONONOONO

NONO

[keen dome]

I have fond memories of MoP raiding. One of my favourites was someone joining our group on our first night on Empress. We did a pull, wiped, they said we were shit and ragequit the guild.

Then we did a second pull and killed the boss.

[alpine wraith]

rofl

that made me remember the helicopter swordsman boss

and some funny things that happened

or the amber guy

[keen dome]

Haha the amber guy was so buggy (literally and figuratively)

25-man raiding was a lot of fun

[void ocean]

guys, when u setup ptr, what folders do u copy from retail?

[alpine wraith]

cache and WTF

[void ocean]

i copied wtf, interface and cache but still my MegaMacros arent there

and ui in general is a bit fucky

[alpine wraith]

you need to copy from your char on savedvariables to the new one

also some addons may krangle

may need to update them to the ptr vers

[void ocean]

aaah you mean ptr wont recognize my settings bc its different char-realm

[alpine wraith]

yea

[void ocean]

aye, makes sense, tnx

[alpine wraith]

but ptr nowadays has a button to copy things

[void ocean]

well yea, i used it but still

i expected it will pick up

but ui is nowhere near

[deep ferry]

do we still BP at 8+ targets on ptr?

or was it 7+

idk

[alpine wraith]

5 with FW 3 with blades

[deep ferry]

ty

[tepid trellis]

outside of major cds 5 or more targets with FW up
during major cds 3 or more targets with FW up

[rigid delta]

What's FW? (Noob here)

[runic trail]

Find weakness

[keen dome]

Our nemesis.

[median nacelle]

didnt know it was 3 targets when sending cds... so first boss top we sniff the powder?

[hazy breach]

Assuming you have 3 find weaknesses and blades up yes

[median nacelle]

okay learned something new ty

[hazy breach]

But like, youre not storming in dance, so you will not be BPing all of blades anyway

Technically the play is to swap targets and strike them to proc FW but thats annoying as hell

[fallow nimbus]

No storm in dance even with the rotten?

[hazy breach]

Not according to sim no

[alpine wraith]

only if you already had FW from before entering dance kinda

[fallow nimbus]

And with new set between coups?

[hazy breach]

But like, its really annoying to have to worry about find weakness counts while in cds and doing mechanics, so in practice its usually easier and better to either just full send eviscerates or to storm once so you can for sure BP

[tender frost]

Is this for live as well?

[hazy breach]

Yes

But idk, im not really a fan of recommending it because tracking FW count like a hawk takes a lot of extra attention and its not an enormous gain

[tender frost]

What’s the gain over just evis up to 7

[hollow spear]

They fix the rotten and the robot doesn't even like it anymore

Truly a cursed timeline

[lilac stag]

fix the robot

[hazy breach]

Like 2-3%ish depending on count

[hollow spear]

Eleem, can you bribe the robot?

[hazy breach]

If anything i would bribe lizzardmen to fix it

Rather than the robot

[lilac stag]

only bribes they want are better working conditions. we can’t have that in ‘merica.

[hollow spear]

Any chance we might play the build with higher burst on bosses with an amp?

[warm marlin]

The main dmg amp I saw was 30s

Can’t triple dance without triple symbols and can’t dark brew without dropping triple symbols

[hazy breach]

ye probably not dark brew

[lilac stag]

can’t live out the shadow monk fantasy

[hazy breach]

But PE+2x death perception and 2x finality might be a thing. Not sure though finality is currently simming slightly higher than it should be

Should hopefully get adressed soonTM

Ingame finality only buffs the first hit of coup if its up when you cast coup

And only the second hit of coup if its not up when you cast it

[alpine wraith]

yea a bit sad

maybe we need to snap post its on their office about stopping splitting dmg things

to not make things harder for themselves

[hazy breach]

Every single new interaction is always bugged with FW and/or sectech

[vale pine]

subtlety is where you assume things are buggy by defualt

and get surprised every time something works

[runic trail]

So they fixed the trickster parry bug but not this

[vale pine]

haha ye

thats a funny bugfix

[void ocean]

since when did u join doom brigade 😄

[warm marlin]

they did what

[void ocean]

this sounds more like smth mr @lilac stag would say

[runic trail]

It used to make the parry thing apply to the whole raid

It now doesn't

[keen dome]

Yeah

they finally fixed it on PTR lmao

[warm marlin]

Fixed on ptr?

Gg

[leaden prairie]

They did what

[runic trail]

Yup

[leaden prairie]

They fixed my raid buff ?

[keen dome]

Kieron checked a while back and it was still up on live, but dead on ptr

[runic trail]

Yeah. Took it behind the barn and shot it

[warm marlin]

Crazy work

[vale pine]

i am not dooming, but its how i approach things when testing

[vestal escarp]

Insane