subtlety

[small juniper]

some rogue nerd tell me what spec next tier

pretty pls

[swift tinsel]

Wait does he think killing spree cd is always 3 minutes and not affected by RB

[upper narwhal]

🏄‍♂️🏄‍♀️

[north schooner]

I think he knows because he has mentioned it before

or he forgor

[swift tinsel]

Idk he brings up the 3mins all the time

[north schooner]

yeah it's pretty funny

[tepid trellis]

i do still play yeah

[swift tinsel]

Also he could have said one sentence and conveyed just as much info

Instead of six paragraphs of nothing lol

[north schooner]

it will become an ULTRA niche ability (used every 20s)

[small juniper]

what do i play

[swift tinsel]

And acting like a 20% slow is entirely crippling

[lilac stag]

not rogue

[tepid trellis]

sub

[north schooner]

you don't get it, having to commit sprint which has 80-100% uptime for outlaw is too much of a penalty 👍 🏄‍♀️ 🏄‍♂️

[small juniper]

perfect

[swift tinsel]

Man good thing we have a galaxy brain like his on the case

[vestal escarp]

Who the heck is mafic

[void ocean]

alt of ligma

[vestal escarp]

[peak trellis]

How do you do this persistently ? I can (with difficulty) got the two SD at 1:30, but there is no way I can get 2 of them at 3:00 if I keep doing 2 between Shadow Blades windows

[tepid trellis]

it shifts between 2 and 1 inbetween major cds

[peak trellis]

That make sense yeah ok, Thanks 😉

[swift tinsel]

Some chud who lives on the NA rogue forum

Has the most braindead takes imaginable

Dudes got like 22k posts

[vestal escarp]

Uuuuh based?

[swift tinsel]

He’s a Find Weakness fan

And thinks sub needs it to survive

[north schooner]

22k posts in less than 7 years btw

[swift tinsel]

What the fuck

😂

[north schooner]

about 10 posts a day average

what is there even to talk about so much that you need so many posts? 🤔 🏄‍♀️ 🏄‍♂️

[brittle plinth]

He has wild takes

[brittle plinth]

Tell him to enjoy cata

[wanton bronze]

i saw Eye of Kezan and House of Cards recommended but ik on my other chars Eye doesn't really scale well on short fights

should i pick up pacemaker for m+ instead?

[hazy breach]

Yep

[rustic raven]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[grand wyvern]

hi, in light of the recent bp buffs does anything change on when we use it over evis target number wise?

[swift tinsel]

not currently

[tribal blade]

it honestly annoys me i get this reference

i got in a few arguments with that dude until i just gave up and let him live in his own fantasy land

[lilac stag]

He’s fighting the good fight.

[tribal blade]

he's definitely fighting a fight

not sure if it's good 😉

[idle aurora]

when doing underpn ?? do you only dance at the shield or should i try to squeeze dances in

or do i spend a few days leveling up a hunter ;/

[pearl swan]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[paper siren]

I’m excited for sub next season

I just hope the aoe isn’t bad

[steel zinc]

It's roughly without tier ~4% better in aoe then rn

Still pretty bad

[north schooner]

Send full CDs on pull and always prio dealing with the adds. Spend a single dance on his follow-up shields if you have many adds. If he gets a shield and there are 0-2 adds up, you can send full CDs again

[steel zinc]

you just send cds on pull and then position the boss to the edge and kill with the bombs the adds. Then continue to dps and break the shield. Move the boss to the clockwise or counterclockwise to a new position and continue. It will take roughly 3 cds sets to kill it.

Sub is really great for that fight since you have forced downtime anyways to position the boss

[cinder steppe]

boss jumps on bran and wont move for a long while

but i did it as outlaw think sub is better

[steel zinc]

make bran healer

he will just follow you then

tank or dps is kinda weird

[bright sundial]

got a dumb question if they keep buffing bp will that somewhat nerf trickster in aoe or no?

[tribal blade]

nah it won't because trickster also uses BP

[hollow spear]

They also buffed bp and nimble

[tribal blade]

BP overtakes nimble at quite a small target count already as trickster

[bright sundial]

oh dont we use bp after 7 targets?

[tribal blade]

it's 5 if they all have FW

[hollow spear]

= 5 fw targets
= 3 fw targets during blades

[tribal blade]

DS also has so many problems where it's just not worth running

thankfully it's not keeping up with trickster

[bright sundial]

is that casue sb doesn't interact with nimble?

[hazy breach]

Yep

[bright sundial]

wow from not playing sub for 2-3 months bp is like getting giga strong now?

[hazy breach]

Always has been

Since the start of the season that is

Its just dumb that evis and nimble is weak and buggy

[bright sundial]

oh ok casue last season it was at what 10+ or something like that now 5+ or 3+ with blades damn

so if ds wasnt shit to play our aoe would be even better with the crit talent or nah

[hazy breach]

Well i mean that would depend on how they would fix

[bright sundial]

no idea couldnt even think of a way

[hazy breach]

But the current way to play deathstalker aoe is to strike a new target once your mark reaches 1 stack to reset it to 3

So you get more clear the witnesses

And dont get DN, because it doesnt do anything

[bright sundial]

oh maybe make dn buff bp?

[hazy breach]

Yep but doesnt seem to be happening

[umbral topaz]

Man that sounds cursed as fuck.... God fuck deathstalker, such a fucking shit hero tree

[bright sundial]

welp i tried sry guys

[hazy breach]

BP does move damage than DN eviscerate at 5 targets

[umbral topaz]

Once i was full of copium, maybe actual rework in s3??
Now in down to "please delete hero talents in midnight"
Prolly wont happen tho

I pray for sub trickster supremacy in s3 tho

[bright sundial]

hasnt been that way since s1?

[umbral topaz]

Well not if you also count assa being a spec

[hazy breach]

Surely they bugfix nimble

[clever delta]

they already "did"

[hazy breach]

Not quite

[clever delta]

that was the best they could offer

[idle aurora]

Ty for info @steel zinc @north schooner

[steel zinc]

they fixed a little?

Question:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ufuzq36b3uR2RYAFpFj3At

Why does the sim in an 6 target mob fight use bp in the first dance. So strike---> bp---> strike---> coup ---> strike etc. BUT
in the 2nd part of the dance in cds we just strike---> evis ----> strike ---> evis etc.?

[warm marlin]

black powder goes based off the number of targets with find weakness up, not how many there are in general

in the first dance it used rotten to spread fw

in the second it would normally also have done so but it got a bit confuzzled by symbols being pressed earlier, and backstab is higher priority as first builder of dance than 1 stack rotten shuriken storm (in the apl, prob would have rotten spread in real gameplay), so it backstabbed instead. then all the fw fell off

[steel zinc]

would it not be a dps improvement to storm then to apply fw in the 2nd dance?

Instead of bs

just pure aoe here

[warm marlin]

its a bit murky, eleem has mentioned rotten storm thing is maybe not worth it anymore and so you just black powder whenever fw is already up from storming

(i.e. from doing ruptures before cds or whatever)

but in my unsupported by data opinion ya u would want to rotten storm

[steel zinc]

Ok ty very much. ❤️

[vale pine]

good morning, what are we annoyed about today?

[steel zinc]

about find weakness being a thing

😄

[vale pine]

thats a waste of time to be annoyed about, i gave that feedback in BfA already and its now years after ^^

[steel zinc]

[nova cairn]

Keep going… we finally got killing spree changed

It’s just about a 3 expansion workaround time

[lilac stag]

the grass is green.
the sky is blue.
is perfect!

[vale pine]

which should have been reworked in 10.0

because its an active part of the tree

subtlety to a degree suffers from the issue of low priorisazion

i assume the dev team labels it as "good enough" and as such rather spends time on one of the other specs

or classes

[keen dome]

Touch of the Magi would be a cool rupture

[nova cairn]

Yeah I guess compared to KS

It doesn’t actively kill you

[vale pine]

KS is the central spell of trickster, so it being poorly designed was a very important point

[umbral topaz]

We also did trash talk deathstalker a bit 👍

[vale pine]

which comes back to the initial statement

[nova cairn]

I saw casual yesterday do a DS sub key

It looked dire

[vale pine]

it should have been redesigned during beta

not at the lets say end of the xpac

[umbral topaz]

Well most of our entire hero trees shouldnt have made it out beta tbh

Yet here we are

[vale pine]

deathstalker is in need of change the most

[keen dome]

It's fine, we've got another beta coming up soon. Maybe they'll get fixed

[vale pine]

i still find it quite amusing

that its the talent tree the team took the most time on

as it was released last

and is one of the worse designed in the game

[keen dome]

I still think the moment it went live and everyone said "yeah that can't possibly work" was funny

Seconds of testing as either spec

[umbral topaz]

Well fatebound aint exactly great in any content either.... 😅

[vale pine]

i mean, it works for assassination

kind of

[umbral topaz]

But thats not a sub issue!

[nova cairn]

Its annoying when we have hero talents in this state

And we get tier sets around them

[keen dome]

When it first went live on the alpha, Assa couldn't realistically make it work either, no?

[vale pine]

hero talents look a lot like they are designed for a specific spec

[keen dome]

100%

[vale pine]

trickster looks very sub centric

fatebound outlaw

and deathstalker assassiantion

if you disagree, keep in mind that the more seperated nature of deathmark actually fits very well in the classical assassiantion design

[keen dome]

It's funny 'cos you can tweak one or two things on trickster, and name it something else and it's extremely fitting for a void / ethereal thing.

[vale pine]

so while its annoying, it kinda is like assassinations cooldowns ended up designed for most parts

[north schooner]

the fact that assa can get locked out of the mark makes me think that either they think people don't die (in game) or DS was with sub in mind

[keen dome]

Change Nimbleflurry to Shadowflurry, change it's damage to Shadow. Change Unseenbalde to Shadowblade and call it Shadestalker.

[jaunty heath]

It’s just a way to add 10 talent points without putting them into the regular spec tree

[vale pine]

vendetta and similar spells are target centric too

it kinda fits the theme/design

[jaunty heath]

I wish deathstalker sub worked

[vale pine]

i mean it does

it just plays worse

[jaunty heath]

Ye but in a fun way

[vale pine]

as much a we hate on it

its something like 2-6% behind most of the time

[jaunty heath]

I liked DS on release

Even playing it, I had fun

[vale pine]

which is not significant enough to not play it

similarly

farebound on assassiantion is not that far behind, yet nobody touches it

[jaunty heath]

But ye then the mark thing happened and it’s just eh

[vale pine]

10.2 might make diffrences bigger

but we will see

I am fine with playing trickster, it feels the least bad

[keen dome]

Ye

Nimble sucks for a myriad of reasons but at least it's harmless and easy to play with

[vale pine]

from talking to some non rogue players who played subtlety, all of them wanted the spec to get modernized to a bigger degree. They espcially crisizize how you are energy starved in aoe and how punishing the spec is.

also the lack of strong aoe

its like

also how complicated everything is

so basically

exactly the points i asked realz to fix

haha

[north schooner]

maybe next expansion

[vale pine]

I don't know

[keen dome]

Always have hope. There is always the chance we get critical fixes

like animations

[vale pine]

looking at the first dance

its hated by any non sub main

because of how unreliable and stupid it is designed with the 6 secs

yet

thats the literal state of the art the dev team designed for the spec

and thats scary

[keen dome]

TFD is close to being a really cool talent, too.

It's just another case of it not.. quite being where it should be.

[vale pine]

if they did not add the timer

[north schooner]

my hope is that they will touch sub as a result of wanting to make specs playable without addons. The whole situation with BP vs Flurry Evis rn is atrocious.

[vale pine]

it would have been a good/liked talent

but they specifically decided to add it

which is mindblowing to me

[keen dome]

Or just a shorter timer.

4s or something

[vale pine]

you take a good concept and say "lets add something that makes this 100x worse"

[keen dome]

Yeah

[keen dome]

Ye, I think Rogue in general will get a look at, at some point.

[vale pine]

it reminds me on university

where we had a student who did put in his assignements written in cursive and dialect

[keen dome]

oh no

[vale pine]

for professors who did ask for unreasonably time consuming tasks

which basically did mean the professor needed noticable longer to decrypt

i just get the same vibes for tfd and subtlety, it feels like whoever designed it did not want to and as such added some additional annoyances

[north schooner]

the dev got ganked by sub rogues back when world pvp still existed and now they are taking revenge

I can't wait until we have to solve a wordle to do aoe damage

[keen dome]

tower of hanoi aoe mode

[hollow spear]

Doesn't tfd at least do what it says it does now?

I've heard that it does on PTR

[keen dome]

People have been saying it's better now, yeah

Which is exciting news

[steel zinc]

tbf it would be goated if it was just if you are out of combat

[keen dome]

Ye

[vale pine]

exactly

there is no reason for the timer

[lilac stag]

“They” are overly focused on “friction” for sub. Nothing can just be straightforward.

[north schooner]

what if their reasoning was that "well master of shadows is dogshit, so we have to equalise it somehow" and strapped a timer on it

[vale pine]

i think its simply

a pvp thought

[lilac stag]

yet they can just adjust it for pvp

[north schooner]

then the timer could've been pvp only though

[lilac stag]

and chose not to

[steel zinc]

then add a 2 sec timer in pve and 60 sec in pvp or w/e

like 1 or 2 second timer is w/e

[north schooner]

they already balanced it differently in pvp I think it's +3s instead of +4s

[keen dome]

Yeah

It works differently iirc

[steel zinc]

oh ok didnt know that

[hollow spear]

I feel like saying that the reason for stuff being meh is them wanting friction is simplifying it a bit too much

[grand wyvern]

sub may be one of the few specs that has more pvp players than pve

[keen dome]

It's a question I'd love to ask, amongst many. Why the specific delay on it, what was the design goal.

It'd be an interesting conversation imo

[north schooner]

you can ask it at the next rogue dev q&a

[runic trail]

I'd like to see more comments explaining the rationale behind some decisions in general

[keen dome]

My other question would be "Why are poisons still a 60 minute duration and not a toggle also why are raid buffs not a toggle in general"

[north schooner]

they could start with their balancing patches

[keen dome]

why is arcane intellect a 60m buff. Just make it a toggle

[lilac stag]

It’s the ongoing theme. They’re just sprinkling it in and not looking at the sum of everything resulting in deranged gameplay.

This is really cool, but it needs a qualifier (friction). Rinse and repeat.

[steel zinc]

they should do this imo a QnA for each class before a major patch

[vale pine]

its just my theory

i am sure there is no bad intention

but subtlety remains one if not the least played spec in the game

due to decisions like tfd design

[runic trail]

Poisons not bring on a timer would be great.

[keen dome]

See how many times I've talked about a poison toggle in here

It'd be such a huge QoL!!

[lilac stag]

they’re coded as a consumable, but one that can be added still with actual consumables. Don’t see a toggle happening.

You can’t stack wind fury and whetstones for example and wf is an hour, just like poisons, just like weapon consumables.

[keen dome]

In general, making all the raid buffs and stuff like poisons a toggle would just be good for the game. Skyfury, Arcane Intellect, Battle Shout, etc. So if you die and res, it's automatically back on.

[keen dome]

Ye, I assume behind the current vaneer it's straight up a hidden buff to the weapon itself

Which is why stuff like timewalking does weird shit to your poisons

Exactly like you say with windfury

[lilac stag]

I have a suspicion that it would be an incredible amount of code to change

[keen dome]

I imagine it'd be easier to rip it out and start again from the ground up.

But who knows what that'd cause

Poisons are probably one of those blackbox systems that nobody wants to touch.

[lilac stag]

Rogue is the black box

[keen dome]

Looking at WoW code would be really interesting

And I am eternally sad we don't get deep dives into how stuff works 'cos of the response always being so.. weird.

[lilac stag]

look at how you coded a website 20 years ago vs today.

[keen dome]

urgh don't remind me

Thinking about my web design lessons gives me psychic pain

[lilac stag]

I’m curious what percent of code from each expansion is still present in some form

[keen dome]

Same

[glacial orbit]

"gpt code me a website"

[lilac stag]

thankfully sub is perfect every patch. Just like classic. #nochanges

[steel zinc]

@vale pine why is it with the next patch not worth it to maintain fw in 5 targets? So with storm for example since we will have more crit on our gear

[north schooner]

and it will be even more perfect next patch with shuriken tosses between coups in blades

[vale pine]

wdym

[steel zinc]

This sim could apply FW again with a storm but doesnt do it

like it rather just presses evis in the 2nd dance

my question is wouldnt it make more sense to keep up fw in +5 targets

So with rotten we have 100% crit chance and can continue applying fw

[keen dome]

We're perfect so long as we remain cool and purple

[boreal otter]

What will supposedly be our first crafted item next season? (In regard to the fact that an agi dagger can be dropped on the 2nd boss)

[vale pine]

you ideally use storm once in dance with rotten so you have fw on all targets

outside of dance, its whatever

[lilac stag]

still running a dagger. Unless you can manage to clear 2nd boss mythic week 1 and force a dagger drop

[steel zinc]

the force dagger drop is the issue

we killed the 2nd boss week 1 and it took us 4 weeks to get one dagger drop for two rogues

[steel zinc]

always dagger

its like 200k dps increase

and you can force it by just doing keys and get it day one

[keen dome]

well that was anticlimatic. I guess I left it for ages so it wasn't hard

[lilac stag]

Nice. As sub or?

[keen dome]

Yeah

Took me two tries

[lilac stag]

oh damn. You a bomb expert.

[keen dome]

I just waited for him to sheild -> pop cooldowns and nuke until out of dance. Then just focus on kicking bombs and living. Rinse repeat.

[lilac stag]

I still have to run it.

[keen dome]

I kept himc lose to the wall so cronies would spawn there near bombs so I could immediately kill their spawn

He goes to like, 60% if you full burst him at the start, too

[lilac stag]

got shammy aotc done last night

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, nice job

[lilac stag]

talk about button bloat.

[keen dome]

Haha

[lilac stag]

I have to try totemic still. Just been doing storm bringer. I like the theme better.

[keen dome]

Yeah, it's cool. I like the vibe

I bounced off mage at cap. Just don't enjoy it and I remembered mages are my arch nemesis

So I rerolled my alt to the cooler mage: warlock

[lilac stag]

our current shaman asked if I’m swapping. Said um no, rogue prison is a real thing. No one in guild is going to want to swap to it and adding another melee to the roster not ideal.

especially when we have 3 dps dks.

[keen dome]

Ye

Someone has to be there to collect the daggers that drop

[lilac stag]

which is what he’s swapping to

[keen dome]

Damn

[lilac stag]

it’ll be a backup if it insane like s1

[keen dome]

Oh, I also had a level 80 Brann. Which I dunno if it makes a real difference or not 'cos he got stuck in a wall for 60% of the fight and didn't do much

[lilac stag]

would be the only reason I’d seem them taking me off rogue.

[keen dome]

Ye

[lilac stag]

I have and 80

Which talents did you use?

[keen dome]

As Sub? Raid with TFD and EE.

[lilac stag]

on Brann

sorry forgot what they call them

[keen dome]

Oh, on Brann: healer with the robot dinosaur egg and the haste on mob kill one.

Robot dinosaur egg did nothing because he kept spawning it outside the arena because he was stuck in a wall, but the haste thing went up on crony kills so I had movespeed and haste the whole fight which is.. a thing

movespeed probably the real benefit

[lilac stag]

nice

The Dinos seem to troll a bit

[keen dome]

I tried with bioprinter the first time but it didn't proc once

[lilac stag]

damn

[keen dome]

unsure if I was just unlucky

[lilac stag]

Running enhance last night made me realize I have no idea what lust timings are in raid. I have legit never noticed them as Sub.

[keen dome]

Haha

I only know them from raid leading

Most of it's just on pull these days

[lilac stag]

yeah just never thought about it for what 20 weeks? Haha

[keen dome]

Yee

I think that's all the seasonal stuff done now. Underpin, AotC, 3k .io, visions, duos, etc.

I guess the only one I'm missing is CE and that's never happening

[lilac stag]

Time to start RL prepping for Pug AOTC!

[keen dome]

Yeah, I gotta lead a pug next reset to get back into it

[runic trail]

Don't let your dreams be dreams

[keen dome]

If Blizz ever remove the Mythic ID lockout, I would absolutely be trying to do at least 4/8M haha

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403100064979091457/1396436103073890304/image.png?ex=687e13f7&is=687cc277&hm=61eb23e87d73ccbdc94a3320fedb27a4ce10ce0b43ef125f1500efddb8d61c6c& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403100064979091457/1396436397086347287/image.png?ex=687e143d&is=687cc2bd&hm=d4809c7b3f57032c1e5b7e72dbda07c03127ccbed16043018742d7f865d02a6e&

[boreal otter]

Shadow Bolt supremacy

[keen dome]

If it has shadow in the name it should do shadow damage

[boreal otter]

Physicalstrike

[steel zinc]

its a really good challange imo. but just like mage tower in legion you can outgear it. If you want a challange just dont wear a neck or so and you back to 640 😄

[keen dome]

Ye, haha

[steel zinc]

Still funny cant do it with 680 😄

[keen dome]

I should've done it aaaaaages ago

[steel zinc]

reading comments on reddit about that challange is funny

[keen dome]

Yeah, I was surprised it only took me 2 tries. Probably a considerable amount of luck.

Just good spawns and bombs not bugging

[steel zinc]

yeah the bomb spawn you can influence but also a bit lucky

tbh I like that content more as raider then mindlessly pushing m+

[keen dome]

Bring back brawlers guild

Bespoke unique puzzle fights

[steel zinc]

I like any form of solo boss content

even thorgast at the end

the boss rush thing

[keen dome]

Yeah

Brawlers in MoP and WoD was some of my favourite content in the game

Even the social aspect of waiting for your turn

It was so well thoughtout

[clever delta]

is there anything worth dwarfing in new raid

im kinda tired of orc

[hollow cobalt]

Hi new to sub

is that good dps for an floodgate +12?

i seem far away from other ppl

but they were 684 ilvl

[tepid trellis]

well

you have a 2min cd trinket equipped on a 1:30 spec

so that kinda sucks

[hollow cobalt]

yeah i know i have nothing else atm

i'm farming house of cards every week

[runic trail]

If you run LFR once you shoudl be able to buy it with dinars?

[hollow cobalt]

i played outlaw before so i fcked my dinars...

[runic trail]

Ah, RIP

[tribal blade]

you also have too much haste and not enough crit

but as you said gearing yeah

[hollow cobalt]

thats what wow logs

says

seems not that bad with my gear then

[random comet]

Seems pretty good tbh

Given ilvl and trinket sitch

[hollow cobalt]

my sims says i need more VErsaaaa haha

and crit

[tribal blade]

weird it would say you need more vers

when you have 27%

[hollow cobalt]

patchwerk

[tribal blade]

oh don't sim statweights

sim topgear

[hollow cobalt]

why not

[tribal blade]

because there's no way you have 27% vers and you need to get more when you have 15% crit

[random comet]

statweights change everytime you change stats

[hollow cobalt]

i can maybe sim a restat on my crafted gear?

if i seam crit mastery

[tribal blade]

you can yeah

[hollow cobalt]

i see if they say i can get more

Sub is so fun to play

[tribal blade]

i would be very surprised if that sim didn't tell you to recraft to crit/mast

[hollow cobalt]

i rlly want to play sub s3 but everyone say it sucks in mm+

[tribal blade]

it's not great

but unless you're pushing the tippy top keys it doesn't matter

every single spec in the game can do 10-12s easily

sub is "not great" but you can use it in most high keys still

[hollow cobalt]

i mean i don't wanna do only 12s

maybe higher keys also

but i don't pretend to do R1 keys

so i think

every spec are able to

[tepid trellis]

sub can do title keys just fine

[hollow cobalt]

push like 17

[tribal blade]

yeah sub is more than capable of that

[hollow cobalt]

vers mastery

crit versa

so they don't ask me to replace my gear for more crit

only craft the bracers i don't have

[tribal blade]

i'm not a big raidbots person, but it says there your simc is out of date

and it might not be working properly

[tepid trellis]

stats is and always will be a balancing act

which is why you dont do statweight sims

but sim the gear pieces themselves instead

[hollow cobalt]

i did a droptimizer

if a restats my boots

i loose dps

[tribal blade]

you can do this in top gear

[hollow cobalt]

but a lot of things can interact

[tepid trellis]

yeah its within margin

[hollow cobalt]

maybe its because i have a shitty trinket and no jastor

then more versa result to bigger burst window

idk

[tepid trellis]

well the way signet works

is kinda messing with stats

[hollow cobalt]

i sim patch or dungeaon?

[tepid trellis]

depends on what you wanna sim for

[hollow cobalt]

dungeon works on sub?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[tribal blade]

sub will end up being mostly the same between the 2

you can kinda just go vers/mast, get some crit and you're 95% of the way there

[hollow cobalt]

i also need to farm peacemaker i think 671 is better than Wax whistle 684

[tribal blade]

most likely yeah

pacemaker will be especially good with your current gearset because you have very low crit

[hollow cobalt]

yeah i need to sim it

i think wax whistle is maybe better in st

i mean 684 wax whistle better in st instead of peacemaker 671

[weak bridge]

Imagine if we had dfa

I long for the days

[tepid trellis]

time for your pvp adventure

[weak bridge]

I’ve tried

Good enough to easily get 1.8k and dip

Cba to have 3 keybinds one spell for 1,2,3 or w/e

[hollow cobalt]

thats what top gear said

[hollow cobalt]

whats the rule on cp in sub? 5or+ or always send at max cp?

[tepid trellis]

6+

[hollow cobalt]

if i shadowstrike i'm at 5 i shadowstrike again?

[tepid trellis]

yep

[hollow cobalt]

okok

sometimes i got refund cp

can i track this?

or its random?

i don't find any talent that talk about

[tepid trellis]

its the talent called shadowcraft

and it works off of shadow technique stacks

[hollow cobalt]

so if i have 7 stacks shadowtechniques

then next finisher is refund?

[tepid trellis]

suring symbols yes

during*

[hollow cobalt]

okay

now i understand

[lilac stag]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[lilac stag]

grab the sound trigger

[hollow cobalt]

oy yeah

nice thanks

[lilac stag]

there’s also a FW target count with BP condition floating around. Search @swift tinsel posts over the last 2 weeks.

[hazy breach]

The 5 find weaknesses thing is not related to the new season at all, its the same as it is on live. But the problem with using storm is that it does no damage and doesnt proc unseen blade.

In practice using the storm feels better imo because reacting to the amount of find weaknesses you have does not feel good at all

[lilac stag]

https://wago.io/ZpPc-YY4v

@vale pine can you add that to !wa

[brittle plinth]

It's really good

[vale pine]

sure can do

[tribal blade]

i agree, when things are super hectic you can freely use storm and know you can press BP with 0 issue

i've always found reducing mental load on your rotation in keys through whatever means usually nets more damage

[keen dome]

100%

[tribal blade]

no guess work if i walk into a pull knowing i'm gonna storm with rotten to proc FW on all targets 😉

and can use my eyes to look at other stuff

but i should still pick up that WA, looks sick

[keen dome]

Ye, same, I should slot it into my rogue stuff

[swift tinsel]

Lmk if you find any weird features with it

Tried to make it as straightforward as possible in and out of blades

[hazy breach]

They fixed storm using 2 rotten stacks on the ptr so you can use storm first builder now instead if you want

Most notable when you have coup up already

Or i guess you want to storm after coup now anyway, so its just meh

[tribal blade]

haha at least no more worrying about eating both stacks anymore

thank god

[hazy breach]

Surely they fix the nimble bugs

Its only ~20% nimble dmg thats missing and it not working with blades

[keen dome]

it looks really solid

[swift tinsel]

there was a little weirdness with the flawless form condition but it should be all fixed now

[honest yacht]

Kind of new to sub this expansion. It's feels so amazing during CD windows but feels almost like I might as well stop attacking in between. Am I doing something wrong?

[tepid trellis]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[vestal escarp]

It's gonna be better with rotten, no?

[hazy breach]

What

[vestal escarp]

Rotten fix

Storm into all the ubs you want

[swift tinsel]

[tepid trellis]

[vestal escarp]

Someone confirmed storm doesnt eat both rotten stacks

[vale pine]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Yes

[vestal escarp]

Yes

Now we can play rotten as storm into strike strike

Without it being a glorified silent storm

And screwing over disorienting strikes

[vale pine]

nice

[hazy breach]

But storm doesnt proc unseen anyway

Idk what youre trying to say

[vestal escarp]

That your not screwing disorienting strikes anymore to play around the rotten bug

You can storm as first builder before sectech

And still buff the next strike

[astral axle]

this owns ty for it

[vestal escarp]

And you're not delayign coup

And the rotten strike can actually benefit from surprising strike, cause you often times it happens you rotten strike a new trash that isnt fazed

[hazy breach]

Well surprising strike and lethality doesnt cleave anyway

[vestal escarp]

Not even the bonus from surprising?

Thats big

Bruh 50% on strike

[swift tinsel]

they could have been fixing it at any time in the last year+ but rets weren't shiny enough

[lilac stag]

Thanks

[dry plank]

Nimble bugs does not impact your gameplay just eats shit ton aoe damage while rotten does in some way impact gameplay

[hazy breach]

Well its not 50% damage, it goes from 200% damage on a crit to 270%. So both talent combined is a 35% increase on crits only, which does not get cleaved

[hazy breach]

Well if it wasnt bugged we wouldnt bother BPing

So like ye its not directly impacting the rotation, but as a result the optimal play shifts due to the bugs

[dry plank]

Oh that’s true, may be they will fix it at some point than

Are devs even aware of this bugs at all and their impact? ))

[swift tinsel]

yep

[clever delta]

I think that's why they buffed nimble

[dry plank]

Buff easier than fix ))

[clever delta]

If its for rogue, it's best they can do

[dry plank]

But there is easier fix = delete

[clever delta]

Imagine being mage thing

If it was for mage, Microsoft would lock them in their offices not allowing leave before fix

[dry plank]

Interesting why

[clever delta]

Well mage is blizzard princes with big community

[dry plank]

Is it big though?

[clever delta]

I think so

[dry plank]

Seems like not that big no? lol more than us

Little difference

[north schooner]

you are looking at all levels instead of max, and even max level isn't a very accurate indicator because of abandoned alts

this is max level for instance

[pliant topaz]

these are always so weird, becuase this is straight up order of operation issue no? like why not just come up with a smart consistant order of operation ...

[hazy breach]

Ye seems like it cleaves before those are applied

[pliant topaz]

its not only that... even things like shadowed finishers... half the time things dont work on it, becuase they are going back and adding it to the list of things to get buffed. whereas it could just be made to be a % of the physical hit + all its calculations, its easier for us to understand, and for them to implement

its less buggy etc.

but isntead every patch we gotta get mr Eleem to go in and be like surprised pikachoo face it doesnt work with shadowed finishers

[brisk onyx]

[pliant topaz]

and like whats insane to me is it takes prob very little to do this fix too... u can litearlly go ask claude 4 to go find all instances of this and fix it and document it, then spend like 3 hours reviewing the changes. then when it goes live, if therre are more bugs left, fix those in a next patch (they already do this anyways so nothing lost here_

[hazy breach]

They have more important work to do (fixing mages)

[pliant topaz]

Insanely based

[keen trellis]

Is there actually a list on all the bugs?

[swift tinsel]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[dry plank]

You are from na?

[sullen hare]

oh my god I just saw the pin

they went and did it didn't they. another buff to black powder? who asked for this!?

[keen dome]

It was me!

[sullen hare]

I mean, I jokingly say that's what they're going to do but I sure as hell hope they didn't think that's what we really want

[wraith sphinx]

i think we should all just start pretending that we love BP

this will manifest a patch note where they buff evis damage by 20%

[vale pine]

its a placebo buff

to make sub seem more competitive in m+

the change is too insignificant to matter

[pliant topaz]

yea

[leaden prairie]

@vale pine fix

[short aurora]

outlaw down bad

its dps dependant

where the channel is

[twilit phoenix]

Guys is outlaw meta in season 3

[short aurora]

[graceful crown]

Haha outlaw now rogue tier 3 spec

[sacred yarrow]

having sub channel above outlaw messes with my brain

[twilit phoenix]

Yeah this shit is crazy

[short aurora]

actually giga brain solution for all these "which spec is best" to have it sorted by channel list

nvm they will ask anyways

[twilit phoenix]

[north schooner]

fix that only assa has a cat thread? yes agreed

[tepid trellis]

fixed

[leaden prairie]

ty

[wet robin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

One of my guildmates is watching Casual in Kira’s stream and is asking me if sub is back

Must keep the propaganda going.

[keen dome]

Sub never left

[swift tinsel]

That’s what I said lol just slept on

Give prio invites to guild keys plz

[vale pine]

fix what?

[leaden prairie]

stealthi fixed it

[vale pine]

oh someone already id ^^

[leaden prairie]

ye

one of you guys accidentally dragged sub channel above outlaw channel

idk it was horrible

[graceful crown]

[leaden prairie]

almost had an hearth attack ngl

i tried going to my favorite channel

and ended up here

idk man ..

[dry plank]

Heh I knew it. You have same opinion on Claude as my US colleagues

[swift tinsel]

Yo since you’re here i can link a few trinkets rq

[leaden prairie]

What for

Am I a trinket enjoyer now

[modern sentinel]

zac just looking at the spec he playing in raid

[leaden prairie]

Ye I mean I know I'm playing sub in raid lol

[modern sentinel]

im aware

[leaden prairie]

I didn't even have to look at tuning

It's just

Every season

I'm used to it now

I very much like sub in prog tho

Hate it for reclears

[modern sentinel]

I played sub in sepulcher,just not my spec tbh

[vale pine]

i mean S is the top of each tier list, we just put it last for some reason

[pliant topaz]

at this point everyones using it and its kina really good idk

although with google making baseline gemini free, claude might be cooked depending on how good the gemini does

[dry plank]

It’s good but you guys overrate it

[pliant topaz]

what is it 1M prompt a day or somethign

[pliant topaz]

idk, for ex

my friend works at xbox

and msft is basically forcing them all to use it

and theyre monitoring their usage adnd going over it during their 1 on 1s or w/e

my other friends at amazon and same

my company doesnt use it as much because theyre a hedge fund and confidentiality and stuff but yea

[dry plank]

Latest research showed that by people feeling it increase speed of development but actual data said opposite xD

Just like feelcraft vs Simcraft xD

[pliant topaz]

do you have the research?

becuase i doubt theres any available/ public data that actually shows that

like my own personal projects have sped up too

[dry plank]

I have same feelings of speedup but only in certain tasks

In general it is not

[pliant topaz]

guess we'll see in the long run

[keen dome]

https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.09089

[pliant topaz]

yea he sent it to me. looking at it now

[keen dome]

Coo'

[pliant topaz]

but also their sample is 16...

idk

[leaden prairie]

Fake af tho, I use ai a lot at my work as a dev and it's quite obvious how much faster I have gotten

[pliant topaz]

^

also this is claude 3.5

claude 4 is like 15 times better

[leaden prairie]

• Im a noob and it helps me learning stuffs I didn't know how to do before

So I'm not as limited by my lack of experience

[pliant topaz]

its not even about being noob or not though.

like legit giga senior devs use it

all the tiem

[steel zinc]

what do we do differently with the new tierset? We just storm when we proc the 4p?

[tepid trellis]

storm between coups in blade windows

[steel zinc]

thats it right?

[jovial ingot]

You can be :3

[jovial ingot]

Better developer = better output from tools

[pliant topaz]

for sure

10x engineer -> 100x enginner type shit

[leaden prairie]

ye prolly idk

just taking from my own experience as a noobie

it helps tremendously

[jovial ingot]

Does it though?

Like sure you can build shit

But what are you missing?

What are you not learning?

[pliant topaz]

well i think the idea is nice for it

like instead of having to do the manual work of writing the code that parts done for you

and you do design

which is a more creative, interesting, and more impactful task

[jovial ingot]

Right, but you can only design a good product if you know what to cover

And how to cover

There are N ways to idk, build authentication

A lot of them are shit

Some AI suggestions are shit

And you wouldn’t know unless you had dealt with them before

[pliant topaz]

true, but youre not relying on it for the design, and to understand the design you dont really need to know syntax for example.

you need to understand concepts

[jovial ingot]

Some are good, but don’t fit your business bla bla bla

[pliant topaz]

so like, int he short run itll be bad for most junior devs cuz they get cooked because all they know is basic code and not design

but in the long term, i think a devs job just becomes creative design

which is a nicer world to live in for them imo

[jovial ingot]

Which it already is ngl

[pliant topaz]

eeh

not for junior devs

like right now in my job, i design models, and test them in python/r. but the implementation is in c/c++ by another team.

[desert bolt]

ah I see ty

[pliant topaz]

but like, do i need to know how to do their job to create a good model? not really

i dont know shit about locks and keys in c but thats fine u know wha tim saying

[jovial ingot]

Different things but yeah

Your job is designing

Their job is optimizing/zero latency type shit

[pliant topaz]

yeah exactly, but the optimization/ data integrity/ w/e is a pretty manual task that a ML model can do well

so those people will also move on towards more design jobs

eventually

not now

but yea

but yeah im lowkey giga scared and so are my friends

its just time to move on and start your own business xd

[brittle plinth]

There is always room for people to make sense of it for them

Find that happy middle ground

[foggy egret]

any recomended changes for ptr M+ talent tree from the one on live rn?

using this currently

[pliant topaz]

Eleems doing some testing with Rotten with the bugfix, he'll mention if he finds any noticable gains

[foggy egret]

kk thanks

[leaden prairie]

i know enough that i can learn from it I think, because im still from the generation that learned everything before ai

i think it might be a bit different for future/current gens tho that actually have no way of learning how to problem solve and shit

cause they were born with ai

bit different i think

[steel zinc]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[steel zinc]

Does Coup de Grace work with shadowed finishers and blades?

Wasnt that bugged too?

[hazy breach]

It works

Its finality thats bugged

And only buffs the first hit

[sick jackal]

Shadowed finishers and something works I am surprised

[hazy breach]

Well it didnt work initially

[steel zinc]

but that used to not work or?

ya

thought so

When was that fixed?

[hazy breach]

Beta

[steel zinc]

how much is the blades not working with nimble part?

aoe

[hazy breach]

Like 3% dungeon overall

[steel zinc]

so in theory they could fix it by just buffing it more I guess? Like they did this week

Which is also weird

[hazy breach]

Yes

[runic trail]

If I'm being an idiot just tell me - would there be a gain to /cancelaura'ing the finality before the back to back coups or am I cooking meth right now?

[hazy breach]

No

[runic trail]

Okay fair

[hazy breach]

If you have finality up it buffs the first hit

If you dont have finality up it buffs the second hit

[runic trail]

I thought for some reason the second coup had bonus damage to it, I'm apparently misremembering things.

[hazy breach]

Its the last hit that does the most damage

[rotund pawn]

will there be any optimizations to get 2nd coup with supercharged point consistently? is that even possible with nature of unseen blade being rng

[warm marlin]

the tier doesnt even buff the second coup it buffs the first

because tooltip lies

[hazy breach]

Sectech does more per combo point anyway

So youll be priotizing supercharging sectech no matter what

[steel zinc]

tbf

easy to fix tooltip then actually fixing it

[steel zinc]

We need god. Not even monk buff can make that up 😄

We need another 5-10% buff please

[north schooner]

I did consider the possibility that this will be their fix - if there is one at all. It would be very in line

[random hare]

Sub sucks in high keys

Its good in raid and low keys

So

That wont happen

Buffing sub will get sub nerfed because it’ll be way too op in raid

Issue with sub is spec design and idk why i have to spend an hour explaining to people who say sub is op or if its good enough for high keys

[paper iron]

hello zero, i m a big fan

[strong shoal]

https://tenor.com/view/im-a-big-fan-lewi-lewis-fan-spinning-nikocado-avacado-gif-21664606

[random hare]

casual is also bottom dps in dawnbreaker, best 1-1.5min dungeon

[random hare]

Hi im an air conditioner

[paper iron]

casual washed up gotta play aug now

same as zac

and you

time to leave rogue

[random hare]

no u

[paper iron]

you guys aint teenagers anymore

😔

[random hare]

Im 24teen

Wdym

??

[paper iron]

redbulls made you age faster

[random hare]

still not making a single mistake within my rota

Greatest rogue in the game

[paper iron]

dont call me that, imma blush

[random hare]

Every other rogues are washed up rerollers

I dont recall anyone playing rogue now

Other than me and zac

[paper iron]

casual fully rerolled dk?

james as well?

[random hare]

James and casual on dk ye

[paper iron]

what about wox / shindi and people like that

[random hare]

Idk i never saw them play on the same level no offense, cool guys

Wow is losing these top players every now and then anyways

Jpc was for sure a legend in the rogue scene same with ramfam

Ivaz was great but he isn’t playing m+ anymore

He still raids tho

Can’t think of anyone else really its sad because blizzard is treating this class like dog

[paper iron]

Imo

M+ are becomming lame

i cant say why

it just doesnt feel like it used in bfa / sl

[hollow spear]

Shindig has a higher rio than you rn, Zeross

Not sure if you can say he's not on your level

[paper iron]

and rogue is such in need of love, they just let it die whole seasons

for fun

we re not talking IO

we re talking mecanically as an individual

if he thinks so, well for him

[hollow spear]

That's hella subjective

[paper iron]

it indeed is

true

zeross fully washed up aug main now

[random hare]

Its not like i wasn’t r1 for 2 months straight then stopped pushing

[clever delta]

look at those io warriors

so funny

[paper iron]

anyway it s not about ego talk at base

i kinda join the "m+ers are ruining the game" this couple last seasons

but anyway i quitted so

idc

[random hare]

M+ isn’t about individual skill at all

[paper iron]

yea it s not at all anymore

it used to

to me

everyone goated at his specs and works route for their comp and all

[random hare]

I boosted a few ppl to 3.9k this season that ask me to hide their identity 24/7

Which i find quite funny

[paper iron]

now it s everyone the same comp the same route and deal with the same aoe cc chains

gg

[random hare]

Because alot of ppl suck up there

Even at the top 0.0001%

But none of the rogue guys are boosted anyway

Only guy i dont know is the korean one

[paper iron]

you dont play rogue if you wanna get boosted

you just reroll fotm

and buy it

[random hare]

Ya

[paper iron]

unless you re a certain war that do 2000 keys per seasons

but i wont say his name

[random hare]

U realize hes still way behind right

[clever delta]

i mean zac spend in keys more time than i do in work

[paper iron]

iykyk

yet he still does a third of what this war dude do per season

trust me

[random hare]

Ngl like

Up to the point where i stopped pushing

Im certain i played the game the most out of everyone

In return im giga burned out

[paper iron]

i was pushing 24/7 for like a month, then stop, then come back the 2 last weeks of the season

[random hare]

Our healer quit so it was gg anyways

[paper iron]

and did that every seasons

people pushing 24/7 a complete season

are madman

[leaden prairie]

Is that true, I only play after work at night

Or on weekends

[random hare]

I pushed since day 1 ptr

[paper iron]

send me ptr s3 io

please

or no invite to my +4

sorry

[leaden prairie]

I wouldn't consider myself a guy that plays that much m+ if you compare to like sjele grp for example

[random hare]

[leaden prairie]

These guys spend all day every day in keys

[lean cradle]

ahhh these kids with all their free time

[clever delta]

its fine zac

i support you

[leaden prairie]

no but im just saying

[tepid trellis]

i play 2 hours a week, + when i needed to log in to grab the dope Sword tmog from timewalking vendor

[random hare]

Hes not wrong

[clever delta]

you have team finally btw?

[leaden prairie]

yes

[random hare]

Same with us we didnt push much the last few weeks before i quit and we were ahead of most teams aswell

[clever delta]

i do not follow your m+ adventures that closely

[tepid trellis]

they go kinda hard

swords that are glaives

yes please

[random hare]

I don’t think anyone can surpass meta comp anyway

They have alot of extra util

[clever delta]

im happy that sub is ok in keys

so i dotn need to swap between specs for keys

during progg

[leaden prairie]

I'm doing the phys comp

With porsea

[clever delta]

like woxis

[leaden prairie]

Ye but the better comp

The one with all the buffs

He is playing the scuffed comp without shaman

Well his comp is probably better next tier looking at hunter tho kekw

[hazy breach]

Ye surely hunter stays like this

[hollow spear]

They better not

[clever delta]

they just reworked MM, reworked classes usually stay good longer

[hollow spear]

There's good and there's a bit too good

[warm marlin]

they rework mm every patch

[tepid trellis]

unless you are called Assa rogue in amirdrassil

[hollow spear]

MM has already been top most of this patch

At least in raid

[clever delta]

assa was kind broken for couple weeks

remember having PI too

yeah would be kinda akward if hunters be on top two tiers in row

[tepid trellis]

didn't stop them from ignoring Dev doing the same thing this patch

[random hare]

Its very good in keys it only sucks if ur doing r1 keys

[clever delta]

dev a hunters are only outlines rn i think?

[random hare]

Sub always has x amount of dmg going on no matter what

Where as sin has very good constant dmg that never changes

[clever delta]

im doing keys only to gain gear, i do lot of keys first couple weeks of season naturally

but never pushed

[warm marlin]

2 tiers

[random hare]

So if mobs get to have too much hp, u end up not being able to finish off the pack

And casual was telling me sub is good in dawnbreaker when hes bottom dps on every pack

It just sucks in high keys no matter if the cds line up or not

[clever delta]

he put too much trust into nimble

[random hare]

I keep saying sub is bad because i pushed alot on it

While literally no one did

[clever delta]

we have 3 hunter mains, so i think good for them 😄

3 hunters 3 mages 😄

[alpine wraith]

sub cds are not impactful enough for high m+

but it is kinda ok for raid because encounters are not super long

[leaden prairie]

ok you say that but casual on cds burst as high as yargi hunter

and in st he burst to like 7 mil dps

he does do lower overalls than the other 2 in the ends

but he can def one shot a pack

[proper latch]

And what if he does not one shot a pack

On high key

[leaden prairie]

well if you start a pack at 30mil dps

you wont end up at 10 by the end of it

so its alright

could be worse

But 1min30 cds is a bit weird

For keys

[hazy breach]

Whats hunter now

1 min? 2 min?

[leaden prairie]

No idea

2 min probably

[lean cradle]

so does this mean he can do impactful dmg or after all overall dmg is all that matters in the end, and the higher (even if it was padding) it’s still better? genuine question

[proper latch]

The solution is to play the spec without cds 👍

[leaden prairie]

Too many words

Nice try tho

You almost got me

[lean cradle]

read it french

[leaden prairie]

Ok I'm ngl he does the same damage or more than outlaw, but if you think it's the solution ye

[leaden prairie]

Naaah

Ok I read

Eh

I give up

[hazy breach]

But yeah hunter and dk probably gonna see further nerfs

surely they fix the nimble bugs

[chrome palm]

think they are like 1:15 or something as dark ranger

[north schooner]

sure they will bugfix

[chrome palm]

they get cdr and their tier reduces trueshot cd

[alpine wraith]

i wish i could rng to proc 3 sec techs in between my cds

like hunters do explosives

imagine

[north schooner]

you rng to proc FW to BP at an even lower target count, it's almost exactly the same

[proper latch]

Zac

Are you software engineeer?

[random hare]

Thats the biggest cope ive ever seen in my life

Holy shit

Casual is literally doing -10m dps on 1st pull arakara

Everyone is on cds

[leaden prairie]

no

im idk

a dev

[random hare]

I wouldn’t be surprised if sin does higher burst than sub even

Sub burst is so fake in m+

Its crazy

[leaden prairie]

i do unity dev for a company that does software for vr headset

and i do some web dev stuffs

[proper latch]

That's why you can do complex WAs, I see

[leaden prairie]

well that and because i dont mind putting the time in

[steel zinc]

??? It wont be op in raid if they buffed it

but sure

[leaden prairie]

you know sometimes its just about looking for stuffs

Taking the time to think about a solution

You don't have to know how to do something to do something

[steel zinc]

hunter esp

[random hare]

wow sub in cds is so good hes doing hunter dmg

just -5m dps during cds right after sectech