subtlety

[slate marlin]

would be a great thing

[hazy breach]

As in the timer doesnt get delayed as often and usually starts immediately ye

I cant confirm though as i havent played any ptr

[slate marlin]

ill take it with a grain of salt then, but good be great

[north schooner]

master of shadows

[warm marlin]

sleeping on warning signs

[north schooner]

the warning sign is about taking the talent

[lilac stag]

Shadowheart 🐐

sums up design philosophy perfectly

[summer lynx]

So what are we coping about today lads and ladies?

[sullen hare]

[gestures broadly]

[tall dagger]

guys am i sticking to assassination or am i switching to sub for patch 11.2? im not big into ptr testing news rn

[keen dome]

Which do you like more

[tall dagger]

in gerneal im leaning more to sub i think

[lilac stag]

it is!

jk play whatever you want. The chances of it actually mattering if you have to ask is very low.

if it makes you happy. That’s the best spec to play.

[hollow spear]

Sometimes, I like to put on an asmr video and play sin in raid. Ten minutes of that and I sleep like a baby.

[lusty epoch]

yeah sin feels like the polar opposite of sub... i think they kinda nailed the "feeling" of the two specs

[lilac stag]

assa shouldn’t be an envenom simulator in raid

[keen dome]

Play sub, do big burst damage

[dry plank]

I think it is worst implementation of sub and sin currently.

Hero tree sucks.

[lusty epoch]

idk i haven't played since legion so maybe i'm just happy to play wow right now lol

[warm marlin]

sub plays great in raid

[lusty epoch]

i really enjoy sub

[warm marlin]

aoe is cooked

deathstalker is also cooked

[lilac stag]

the only thing remotely right with sub is it’s doing burst windows. The dance windows are over complicated because of danse / CDR and aoe is trash.

we don’t need blade flurry.

but it’s fun for some so yay!

[opal basalt]

I’d like BP to play a bigger role too

[lusty epoch]

yeah idk.. i just press backstab first thing after dance and then use shadowstrikes, not thinking much about danse

[lilac stag]

Just wait til you add storm next patch

It’s not the thinking. It’s convoluted for no good reason.

[opal basalt]

That was always my thought about sub

[lilac stag]

timing your cds should be the thinking.

not how many different builders can I use

[lusty epoch]

i kinda like that it feels like there's always something you can do to improve.

I played ret a little bit in cata classic and felt like i had mastered the spec after 15 mins at training dummy

[lilac stag]

You would need an actual active dev for them to do something.

we don’t have that here

[slate marlin]

i like current sub a lot but it has a couple rough edges on aoe

[swift tinsel]

like its entire aoe

[tall dagger]

thx for info guys. So is sub getting a lil better in 11.2?

[slate marlin]

ye, aoe needs work

[swift tinsel]

current aoe is just a hodge-podge of bandaids

its functional-ish

[lilac stag]

It’s the same with added storm to ST rotation.

[slate marlin]

nf bugs dont help it either

[lilac stag]

So no not better. Worse if anything gameplay wise.

more rng if I remember correctly

[swift tinsel]

more than s2 set

bc you can high roll and get coup back immediately with 2 builders

[opal basalt]

i love how both specs i

wanna play next season

got barely any changes

[tall dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-gif-12597733794800309328

[lilac stag]

if it’s a rogue spec don’t ever expect changes

That ship sailed long ago

[opal basalt]

it's my first time playing rogue, soooooorryy

[swift tinsel]

Idrc about adding storm/toss tbh

[lilac stag]

It’s dumb and just shows the issues with tier/hero

[opal basalt]

wait we're gonna put shuriken toss into our rotation next season?

[swift tinsel]

par for the course

hardly anything new

[lilac stag]

Toss or Storm

[lusty epoch]

is storm part of the rotation atm? like we use backstab -> SecTec -> storm -> shadowstrike if under 6 CP, or else evis

[swift tinsel]

not in st generally

[lusty epoch]

okok gotcha

[swift tinsel]

but because it doesn't proc unseen blade it'll be used next season to build cp between coup and 2nd coup

to avoid wasting stacks

potential stacks*

[smoky geyser]

What if for sub deathstalkers mark buffed evisc OR blackpowder? The mark doesn't help sub for aoe currently like assass gets does for caustic.

[hazy breach]

Ye thats the most common suggestion

But alas, no changes

[swift tinsel]

inc DN BP thursday

[lusty epoch]

aah because melee hits has a chance to remove the hidden cooldown right?

[swift tinsel]

between thousand cuts resets and guaranteed from disorienting strikes

the 4pc gives you the 2nd coup by adding a 5sec duration buff that's just 4 stacks of escalating blade so you can't accrue them while that buff is up

so to build combo points between that first coup and 2nd you could waste stacks by casting bs or strike

[lilac stag]

Able to type that with a clear conscious saying it doesn’t bother you?

[swift tinsel]

not really, its a builder

builder x, y, z

outside dance idc

inside dance there's usually enough shadowcraft stacks where it doesn't really matter

and during blades first coup often refunds for second

is it ideal? no. is it the end of the world? no

[lusty epoch]

ok so really gotta start keeping track of coup

[patent lichen]

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-no-angry-steve-carell-michael-scott-gif-5606969

This is the darkest timeline

[swift tinsel]

people said the same thing about rupture last season

[patent lichen]

And now we have both

[swift tinsel]

except it was a total wash with the final set tuning

[lilac stag]

They were pissed, rightfully so. Set got nuked so nothing mattered. Everyone basically went back to assa.

[alpine wraith]

but sub was the raid spec for 2 weeks tho

[lilac stag]

[lilac stag]

maybe we get three weeks for s3

[alpine wraith]

i still smell the tier set krangle

[lilac stag]

[fallow nimbus]

what if blizz adds storm and toss to ub just because we are not supposed to not waste stacks

[alpine wraith]

ahaha that would be cool

[fallow nimbus]

you mean that would ruin our day and be a mean move

[alpine wraith]

would help more on aoe than bother us in st

[brittle plinth]

Thank you

[hollow spear]

Idk, I'm with Haptics

The small optimisations don't bother me much. Eventually, they become second nature. And if you're not super comfortable with sub already, you could or maybe should just not bother and accept losing 1.5% of your potential peak..

[alpine wraith]

more people will mess up other things

[chrome palm]

i havent tested this week but macro was working very well for me

[hollow spear]

Did the activation feel improved to you?

[chrome palm]

i didnt really notice that

[nova cairn]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[lean cradle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[graceful osprey]

You know what, just for more chaos, just purge what we got and go back to hemo spamming in classic

[tame terrace]

is the best roulette wheel for sub mast > vers or vers > mast

[lucid jackal]

Vers mast

[tame terrace]

huge then

just got a myth one in vault

[warm depot]

guys quick can i cloak off frostshatter boots in mugzee

i havent raided in like 3 months and got called in to sit for someone

[lucid jackal]

Don't think so

But u assign cloak for soaks don't u

[warm depot]

i am not soaking anything because im toos tupid or something

and also because im standing in xd

[tame terrace]

u cant cloak forsthsatter

it completely pierces all immunities

[warm marlin]

ratsquad wanting the alts in on cauldron pushed our kill time back to the perfect one

truly blessed

[valid yoke]

Okay so sub rogue is super fucking fun lol

im not very good at it but its fun

[chrome palm]

lock in

[warm marlin]

theres a reason i have played that boss like twice since prog

lmfao

[chrome palm]

i get to enjoy the blessing and curses of rat squad this week

[fickle mason]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

good luck, this is my last raid week of the tier

[hazy breach]

I was the rat last week

[warm marlin]

didnt grind the alt to 680 before going in? smh

[hazy breach]

I didnt even craft a weapon

[chrome palm]

tell me your secrets then 🙈

[hazy breach]

Saving crests by going straight for the best in slots

[warm marlin]

highroll

[hazy breach]

Disorienting strikes prepull

Press buttons

Dont have 4:30 kill timers

[warm marlin]

tfd on top

[hazy breach]

[warm marlin]

every boss

[chrome palm]

are you only ever doing 1 dance out of blades

and then triple dancing every blades

like overcapping dance

i guess depending on timings

[warm marlin]

triple dance opener, dance with cold blood always unless you're lining up with adds, then either symbols/sectec after flag or dance with that if its up

idk

[chrome palm]

i am definitely more traditional with my dances i think ill try this

ty

[warm marlin]

i make no claim that it is better than just sending on cd

but it is what i like better

[warm depot]

okay next question while i do this fight can i cloak the blue circles during the charge part

so i dont get stunned

[warm marlin]

vanish opener with predisorient seems to be going well this reclear

also seems to get the glorious lineup on oab opener where your cb sectec cleaves the assistant floating over the boss

[hazy breach]

Surely they buff prism this week right

I do not want to be in the position of wanting prism for long fights and the 2 min one for shorter ones

[chrome palm]

we arent actually holding blades for forge, right?

[hazy breach]

Nop

Just pretending its 3 min

(unless the fight is like 2:30 or 4:30 exactly)

The issue lies moreso in the fact that everybody else is gonna want the 2 minute one too

[warm marlin]

hopefully

[swift tinsel]

it sounds like no one is particularly thrilled about prism so I'm hopeful they look at it

[chrome palm]

i mean if it isnt bis for sub who could it be bis for

since ww and unholy really like haste

[swift tinsel]

might just end up a middle of the road trinket, depending on how hard they nerf idol

ye idk conceptually its cool but starting with nothing on pull is pretty bleh

and like eleem has said the stacking being 2:30 is butt

[warm marlin]

rate this opener @chrome palm

[chrome palm]

the more i look

[warm marlin]

cold blood kidney 💯

[chrome palm]

cold blood kidney goes HARD af

at first i was like "cold blood strike we've all been there"

[warm marlin]

the misclick actually irl stunned me so hard i walked into a mine and died immediately

[chrome palm]

its time to wipe the raid after this opener chief

[warm marlin]

like actually instantly

[hazy breach]

(assuming they nerf cursed stone idol) Its definitely bis for sub, just not if the fights are ~5 minutes or shorter

Which isnt many progress fights, but still quite a long time

[chrome palm]

with the damage amps that definitely makes it seem like itll be stronger

[hazy breach]

Unless the amps are every 2 minutes ye

[chrome palm]

im just trying to think of what other classes would like it

how strong is it for 2min classes

[hazy breach]

Frost dk, warriors, mm hunter

[chrome palm]

with more time to stack

[hazy breach]

Most things that arent 2 min

[chrome palm]

surely mm goes for the crit trinket

at least i dont have to use a transmitter until mid sprocket prog

couldnt possibly be worse than that

[swift tinsel]

I finally stopped reflex-jumping with flag a week ago

[chrome palm]

its time to see a therapist

you got ptsd (post-transmitter stress disorder)

[hazy breach]

You mean the cursed idol from halls?

[swift tinsel]

hot swap the mastery and agi on lily

[hazy breach]

That one is gonna tank like a 35% nerf to its on-use or some shit

[swift tinsel]

it's gotta

or you see them run into melee and get clapped trying to stack it lol

[hazy breach]

All of my talk about trinkets is assuming that one gets gutted

Otherwise we just use that one

But channels are cringe, and id rather use a fun trinket like prism

[swift tinsel]

idek if you can get idol on ptr atm

[hazy breach]

You can, just loot it from the dungeon

[warm depot]

forge looks hilarious

[spice matrix]

!log

[tribal blade]

yo is this the new meta

does CB make kidney last 16 seconds?

[warm marlin]

it makes it go through the monitor and hit your own kidneys

very powerful

[tribal blade]

SHEEESH

[alpine wraith]

happens

[tribal blade]

@chrome palm

apparently he got banned

[keen dome]

Who was that?

[tribal blade]

he's a vdh

PLUS i just helped some friends push up their 19 top and it turned into a 20 ml

[chrome palm]

oh that was the tank in my dfc

[tribal blade]

which was massive and i almost got to run it

but their whole team got on

i give up

[runic trail]

Why'd he get banned?

[tribal blade]

it's over

[tribal blade]

no idea

[chrome palm]

jbugchaos or neondh in your nightmare push grup

[plush roost]

Neonie in my key

brick insta

[tepid trellis]

thats quite the powerful move

[warm marlin]

ty we 0.9% wiped probably because of this int

[runic trail]

Had to be done

[chrome palm]

i kidnapped a shaman and did the cb thing. just checking, you hold sec tech in blades if it comes up before cb?

[warm marlin]

if you have to hold globals you screwed up

[chrome palm]

hm

[warm marlin]

well

not screwed up

[chrome palm]

i was hitting cb exactly when it came up out of blades

[warm marlin]

ya because of sht stacking and having coup ready and whatnot you can get screwed even if you press it the ms its up

the safe timer for cold blood for when you can press flag is 12 seconds, or 11 if you have a good amount of sht prepped

[chrome palm]

i see, ty

worse case i suppose you enjoy a few more sht while you wait

[alpine wraith]

yea you can do it with 14 secs

but 12-11 is safer

[warm marlin]

back before i was shtmaxxing 13s would lead to sectec coming up before cb fairly often

12s was always safe, then sht means its sometimes 11

[warm marlin]

if you use 14 ur gonna get griefed

[alpine wraith]

nah

[chrome palm]

symbols at 14 is verboten for me

i usually do 12 max

[alpine wraith]

remember most of the time you do flag rupture

dance stab/strike

then cb comes off cd in second dance 3rd or 4th global at most or even before

[chrome palm]

also ryldd

[warm marlin]

my sectec is usually my 2nd global of 2nd dance

[chrome palm]

i saw what you did to that dk on sprocket

[warm marlin]

almost every time

[chrome palm]

murderer

[warm marlin]

i murdered him and my gm (hpal)

lmfao

[chrome palm]

so based

[warm marlin]

there was an oopsie with walking into the knockup thing

unfortunately flagging at 3mins is a dangerous game

sometimes lives are lost

[chrome palm]

other, less important, lives

[warm marlin]

so real

[chrome palm]

its a sacrifice i am willing to make

[plush roost]

@tribal blade bro

notlikeTHIS

[tribal blade]

oh 😦

sad days

yeah i'm legit about to stop pushing tbh

it's been going real bad for me recently

[plush roost]

bruv not like this

[tribal blade]

they say i left

but they literally asked me to leave haha

[plush roost]

apparently cauli was gonna come in

but is terminally ill

[tribal blade]

yeah

[warm marlin]

[tribal blade]

it's been seriously rough going

can't push up my key

whenever i do it turns into non dfc/ml

and no invites to 20s ever

[keen dome]

😦

[plush roost]

if i have time

i run some key swith u

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-cat-cat-in-front-of-sea-gif-16930437336998530733

[tribal blade]

but enough complaining

[tribal blade]

haha no sweat

playing with me i'll test your patience and will to live

[bleak night]

next season sub will be op and people will be begging for you to come back

trust

[tribal blade]

haha nah i want this to be my last season no matter what

i'll only come back if guildies want to dabble in high keys

[warm marlin]

why did wcl merge eviscerate and cdg btw

i kind of liked them separate

much more math to look at average cast of cdg and crit rate and such now :/

[tepid trellis]

just open the drop down?

[warm marlin]

yea but then you're looking at the 6 components of it

instead of the spell as a whole

[runic trail]

You're freeing yourself

[warm marlin]

if i want to look at what % of a breakdown coup was now, I have to add all these (or subtract eviscerate itself). its not a big deal just a little annoying

[tribal blade]

i am!

that's the idea

[alpine wraith]

coup de grace

[runic trail]

Casual m+ gaming is chill times

[tepid trellis]

just like me frfr, after season 3 df

ill only every do high push

[alpine wraith]

m+ is like doing crack

[tepid trellis]

when sub is actually good

[alpine wraith]

you cant ever last long

[tribal blade]

that's the exact season i decided to initially retire from M+ too!

but i got talked into coming back by my guildie who's never gotten title

he's title caliber, but he has a big issue with burn out

he'll go super hard for the first half of the season and then want nothing to do with the game after

[tepid trellis]

can just do it the way we did

we played like 1-2 nights a week

[tribal blade]

we actually made a 4 stack group

3 guildies and 1 friend

but it dissolved a month or so ago

the issue is also at the level we play at

you need more than 1-2 nights a week

i've always been the kind of player that either doesn't make or barely makes title, so for that kind of level you have to play so much more than the really good players like yourself

[tepid trellis]

tbf resil might have made it more difficult to do this way

[tribal blade]

resil did a crazy amount of key inflation i feel

[warm marlin]

last season we got close and just spammed +2s at our leisure until we had 5 of the same io key, got our score, and logged out for the week

was incredibly chill

and now you auto get a random key and can't do the shift loot thing anymore

[clever delta]

701 is final ilvl?

[bright solstice]

right now yeah

[keen dome]

Yep, 701 is it's cap.

It doesn't go any higher.

[runic trail]

Hell yeah I don't have to do it before raid tonight

[nocturne hollow]

In keys does sub have better prio dmg than sin?

i feel like im melting prio targets

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/how-do-we-tell-him-mr-krabs-spongebob-meme-spongebob-meme-gif-24063814

[willow fulcrum]

649 in a theater is this good, no idea what dmg numbers look like nowadays

https://tenor.com/view/cat-flash-camera-flashbang-gif-14820120581461492980

2nd key this tier

[willow fulcrum]

if the question has anything to do with is sub better than

the answer is no

[nocturne hollow]

Only in terms of prio dmg I mean

[willow fulcrum]

still no

singular focus exists

more burst yea

but if the mob is dying in 10 seconds it really doesnt matter, in the grand scheme of things, sin will do more priority dmg especially the higher the target count goes

giga

[tribal blade]

sub can have good prio if you spam evis into your target

but then you're hard capping yourself

and sin does better prio while doing full aoe at the same time

[alpine wraith]

if you want prio as sub you play DS

but then you need to call the suicide hotline after

[tribal blade]

DS sub /puke

[haughty mural]

If nimble works with stuff like blades etc we could argue more about prio

But until then it is like prophet says: you are capping yourself

[carmine portal]

What does ur breakdown look like

[carmine portal]

Would sub be broken OP if Blades and Flag were a 1min cd instead?

[tribal blade]

yes

[void ocean]

no cause then they would be nerfed accordingly

[carmine portal]

Ik it's impossible to come up with a definitive number but like, how insane-o OP?

[tribal blade]

if no other tuning was done yeah sub would be pretty bonkers

[carmine portal]

Assuming no tuning

[tribal blade]

given sub does most of it's damage in cds

and you reduce sub's cds by 1/3rd

that's massive

[void ocean]

42

[carmine portal]

haha

[tepid trellis]

it would be like a 33% incrase in cd usage

so quite a fcking lot

[carmine portal]

we'd gain 42 extra dps!?

🤯

[carmine portal]

galaxybrain worked that out in 0.5gargillion picosecond

[tribal blade]

funnily enough flag used to essentially be on a ~1 min cd

because of the leggo during SL

iirc flag worked out to 1 min 10 secs with the leggo cdr

and the initial lash damage flag did also did actual damage, which was kinda cool because it gave us a bit more prio

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/shin-jimin-jimin-whip-whiplash-whipping-gif-12463359

changing flag to 45 sec cd and adding the dmg portion would be pog

[tepid trellis]

[slate marlin]

45 sec flag

[void ocean]

we'd have similar minigame like arcane mages

[tepid trellis]

bro flag

would have to have its mastery cut in half xD

[tribal blade]

yeah flag would become a nothing cd

and then sub basically starts becoming more like outlaw 😉

[tepid trellis]

if you wanted to do something with cds

it would be to remove shadowblades

and just bake it into shadow dance

[tribal blade]

i'm also a massive fan of that idea

[tepid trellis]

or flag

both could work

[tribal blade]

one "issue" would be half the sub tree would have to be reworked to account for dance generating full cps with blades

i imagine

and i dunno if the devs would be willing to do that much work

[slate marlin]

id remove flag

i like shadowblades

[tepid trellis]

could just do smth like

"during dance your mastery scaling is increased by 70%"

then u basically got flag

[slate marlin]

they should already rework half the tree lmao

[tribal blade]

this could be wild, how about put the mastery part of flag into dance

and keep flag as just the lash damage

increase it's dmg

[tepid trellis]

nah

[tribal blade]

so it becomes a prio dmg spell

[tepid trellis]

sub needs less cds

[tribal blade]

fair enough

[tepid trellis]

for the more casual playerbase

[tribal blade]

or how about have flag be a passive talent

[void ocean]

but we have one button rotta now for casuals

[tribal blade]

that adds lash dmg to dance

[valid yoke]

So, I'm brand new to sub, would anyone mind having a lil look at a log of mine? 🙂

[tribal blade]

maybe lashes initially when you press dance, then generates more lashes per finisher used

[tepid trellis]

eh just make evis stronger then xD

dont need other sources of dmg

[tribal blade]

haha true true

[tepid trellis]

when i say casuals i dont mean open world content only enjoyers

i mean HC/Normal raiders

[tribal blade]

while we're at it remove shadowed finishers

maybe make our finishers full shadow

[slate marlin]

tjen remove find weakness too

[tepid trellis]

thats what shadowed finishers just should be

make evis full shadow

[tribal blade]

that would be rad

[lilac stag]

Can we just start with making dance the actual CD and get rid of the WW monk bullshit builder rotation?

[slate marlin]

make rupture shadow, name it nightblade and change icon

[tepid trellis]

rupture is already shadow with a talent unfortunately

[slate marlin]

rework dark brew then

[lilac stag]

Remove danse as a damn talent. Just delete it. Open up dark brew and fix rotten.

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure they fixed rotten on ptr

[slate marlin]

yep

[lilac stag]

sorry Goremaw

too early

[slate marlin]

would like more power into dance

and less on flag

[lilac stag]

rotten is whatever. Goremaw should be an easy talent to tweak to actually be an option

Goremaw

Fuck me caffine where are you

[slate marlin]

lets go back to the brainstorming

[tribal blade]

the sad part is we brainstorm a lot in here and nothing ever gets done 🙂

because we aren't the devs

unfortunately

[lilac stag]

fix base spec CDR. Adjust nimble CDR to compensate. Fix DS / BP.

serviceable until 12

[slate marlin]

we brainstorm knowing very well we will get nothing

[lilac stag]

It’s just a coping mechanism.

[alpine wraith]

maybe bug fixed drop mid season like last time

[void hound]

what did they fix

[slate marlin]

storm no longer consumes all stacks

it correctly consumes 1

[void hound]

oh thats cool

one bug fix for every major patch

sub should be good at the end of the world soul saga

[lilac stag]

We’re up to 2. Apparently TFD was improved / can’t do any of the storm vanish

[void hound]

we are feasting

[tribal blade]

we're the ultimate copers

[lilac stag]

The discussion is healthy. Just need to be aware it’s a tale as old as time.

ran sub on mugzee last night. We going great until range got slammed by bombs. BDK ended up soloing the last 20 seconds. Hahah

[carmine portal]

what we need is for them to do what League of Legends did: They made a study-group of the WORST/Lowest Ranked players of a specific champion (Morgana), studied them and quizzed them and asked them what THEY wanted added/removed from that champ

And they listened 100% to them, and did everything they suggested.

[tribal blade]

are you suggesting they take the advice of lfr heroes to fix sub

[carmine portal]

yes

[tribal blade]

because that would end in utter disaster

[carmine portal]

absolutely!

yeah but SURELY they're a good sample to know what is/isn't good for their spec right guys?

Right..?

[tribal blade]

hahaaaa

it would be bad

given they probably don't know what half the spells even do

[slate marlin]

i doubt those guys know what half their tslents do

[carmine portal]

TL:DR they made her go from a possibly really interesting champ to an absolute dogshit waste of a pick for your team

[tribal blade]

ohhhhhh ok i see what you did there

[carmine portal]

GOD I wish game devs listened to devout players of their specs

[carmine portal]

Yeah all the low-shitters they asked for champion changes asked for all her ACTUAL mechanics to be removed

I believe they said "I don't want to auto-attack, it's too difficult" so they removed a part of her kit that involved doing arguably the most basic thing in League

[runic trail]

[tribal blade]

lol that's actually hilarious

[carmine portal]

And this comes DIRECTLY from the Riot employee who oversaw it

And he said this proudly

They balance the game around the top tiers of play but REFUSE to consult OTPs about changes that would actually make their champion better/more fun

[clever delta]

https://tenor.com/view/jonathan-frakes-beyond-belief-not-this-time-gif-5930409596671287558

[slate marlin]

Imagine asking iron morgana otps what they want morgana to do

[carmine portal]

That is literally exactly it

She was going to have an auto attack passive that changed as u channeled abilities

But Billy in Bronze 1 said it was too hard

he just wants to throw Q-W

[tribal blade]

this is part of the problem with blizz taking most of their feedback from the wow forums

is that you have absolute buffoons suggesting stuff

[carmine portal]

Exactly my point

[tribal blade]

i've gone through a bunch of profiles from horrible takes on there

and it's people who essentially do nothing in game

[carmine portal]

How obviously NOT monitored are the class discords.

[tribal blade]

they have a few 2s timed and like 3 lfr bosses killed

[carmine portal]

You have ppl in them that could write a PHD on why their class is good/bad and can back it up with hours of playtime and sims and maths

That's a huge portion of a devs job essentially done by someone for FREE out of passion

[tribal blade]

yeah it was quite a magical time to have realz in here regularly during the big DF rework

[alpine wraith]

still sad they ran out of time or decided to allocate resources elsewhere

every

time

but some good changes were made

at least blades is not as clown as before

[hollow spear]

I'd argue that you probably shouldn't necessarily take input from high level otps only

Because they don't pay your bills

[tribal blade]

if they could have kept up that level of upkeep on sub we'd be playing a banger spec right now

[lilac stag]

You realize one important part of the equation is a bold assumption on your end. That the devs actually want any more of guidance on the actual spec design. The design is their baby for lack of a better word. If it’s successful has way different values associated with it based on what part of the player base you talk to.

[runic trail]

👍

🏄 🏄‍♀️

[carmine portal]

It's not about ONLY taking input from OTPs

[tribal blade]

wait a second i think i figured out who you are on the wow forums

[alpine wraith]

well sometimes you just feel bad about some things

[runic trail]

God no, I ain't US

[alpine wraith]

like making subterfuge and things work with sepsis or for ass and outlaw

but if you ask as sub

[tribal blade]

oh ok

[alpine wraith]

you were told

uh sorry but no

[hollow spear]

Maybe they should take input from Lashga, he's #1 sub rogue after all

[tribal blade]

there's a rogue in the wow forums who signs every post of his with those 2 people surfing haha

but iirc he's a pvp player

[carmine portal]

🕵️‍♂️

[runic trail]

Yeah, and he has dumb takes so I was making the joke

[carmine portal]

lol

[tribal blade]

HAHAAAAA

amazing

[runic trail]

He said sub is an energy pooling spec before

[hollow spear]

Well it is

[tribal blade]

he's very argumentative

[hollow spear]

You're pooling energy for four seconds before you can backstab

[tribal blade]

he's literally in there arguing with everyone about everything rogue related

[carmine portal]

i love that emote so much

[runic trail]

Okay real

[lilac stag]

need to find the dev that did the SV to melee rework and it literally goes over they don’t care about the feedback on reworks until they actually ask for it.

[hollow spear]

Actually based

[lilac stag]

That video sums up class design to the letter

[hollow spear]

At least they were honest

[tribal blade]

my thought is why not take feedback from the TCs in here

[lilac stag]

it’s like any other design project. Artist trying to satisfy the assigned task. We’re just in their sandbox. Ion is the client. Not us.

[tribal blade]

make changes

and then they're not fully to blame if noone likes it

[hazy breach]

The issue is that people want a lot of different things for sub

[lilac stag]

They have before and that was how we ended up with backstab being important.

[tribal blade]

that's very true

[carmine portal]

Yes, that is true but I doubt the "different things" include fixing bugs or massive holes in the specs. No one is here arguing that PV is good or essential

[hazy breach]

Like a lot of people here like big burst and backstab soup

But a lot of people hate not doing damage outside cds

[north schooner]

he wishes he was that cool

[runic trail]

[lilac stag]

if some of the older purples played the game in here, my guess is most would say this version is ass

[hazy breach]

And ye you could say "then why are you playing sub?" but there has been points in time where sub didnt do 70% of its damage during its big cooldowns

[alpine wraith]

i mean times do change i know it will never become what it was short term burst

[lilac stag]

mystler and his love of the double ring build.

which was the exact opposite of what most loved with dfa

[alpine wraith]

remember our cds used to be 5 secs to 8 secs

now flag lasts 24

[swift tinsel]

There’s a name I haven’t heard in ages

[alpine wraith]

hole

[hazy breach]

Flag being 24 is silly tbf

[lilac stag]

flag existing is silly tbf

[hazy breach]

When blades and 2x dances at 16

[lilac stag]

just need 1 90 second

[alpine wraith]

still salty they made blades 16 y

they literally said ok 3 mins to 2

reduce it by 33% or 25% idk

my job here is done

see ya

[swift tinsel]

Just delete flag and bump up the % on blades

[graceful osprey]

300% mastery

[slate marlin]

Remove flag, bit more cdr on sd, and stronger sd

[vale pine]

flag and blades could be wone cd

a lot of spells don't need a target requirement that have

there is a lot of things you could do to improve things

also doing no damage outside of cd's is a bit mood

[slate marlin]

To do bug dmg on cds, u need to do less out of them

[vale pine]

because it is not a concept thats always applied correctly

[lilac stag]

damage outside would feel better just adjusting energy costs or regen on builders.

[vale pine]

e.g. assassiantion does a lot of aoe damage outside of cd's besides having still a burst centric gameplay

people wouldn't mind subtleties cd's if most of the power was shifted in the shorter cds like secret

[north schooner]

having so much of your damage on your CDs makes it harder to work on fights where the CDs misalign with when you need damage

[vale pine]

especially in aoe

[lilac stag]

It makes it easier

you have control of when you send CDs

[vale pine]

you can also add options for flexibility

we are already decently flexible with multiple charges of symbols/dance

[lilac stag]

flexibility really isn’t the issue.
People don’t want to feel like they’re casting once every 3 seconds.

on a 1 sec fixed gcd spec

[vale pine]

i mean thats just energy

[north schooner]

you do have control, but you also don't want to delay too long or you lose casts

[vale pine]

energy as a concept does not work anymore

[slate marlin]

storm costing 45 is a crime

[lilac stag]

that’s the flexibility of the spec. You can send a dance and hold the 90s

You can send a dry SoD

[swift tinsel]

It’s like mana for casters, doesn’t really exist outside one spec

[vale pine]

there is a certain irony to it because it was a suggestion one person in this discord made

the devs liked

[slate marlin]

you also have to hold your flexible cds to align properly with big cds

[lilac stag]

that’s the decision making that should be involved. Not how many different ways can I get danse stacks in my cds.

[vale pine]

and i dissliked ^^

[slate marlin]

can they just listen to you pls

i wont ever be mad at fuu

[fleet wharf]

How much did it cost before?

[slate marlin]

no one can

[vale pine]

35

[north schooner]

what was the storm cost meant to solve?

[slate marlin]

what was the reasoning for the increase?

[fleet wharf]

yea, being energy starved out of cds is really frustrating. maybe they can just change from shuriken storm to shuriken combo

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongosub-sub-rogue-world-of-warcraft-rogue-aoe-gif-27554873

The solution to avoid

Was high energy cost

[vale pine]

because the dev wanted the spec to feel slow outside of cooldowns

[lilac stag]

Kekw

[vale pine]

and one person in here did say "but we are still fast in aoe, so i think it would be way better to increase storm cost"

[swift tinsel]

Certainly achieved that

[patent lichen]

....

[vale pine]

and dev was like "what a brilliant idea, shipped"

[runic trail]

That maniac

[slate marlin]

all you do out of cds, is farm cdr

[vale pine]

i transcribe it, but that was essentially the gist of it

[slate marlin]

whats the issue on being fast on aoe if you hit like a noodle, just allow us to get cdr going

[patent lichen]

Hey dev I have an idea!!! Get rid of energy refunds

[short radish]

please tell me you banned that person

[slate marlin]

that person isnt at fault tho

[vale pine]

haha, no

i think, even tho it was not stated

[slate marlin]

we all make a lot of brainstorming here, wouldnt be our fault if devs listened to the worst ones

[vale pine]

there was also the idea

to make aoe on sin and sub feel diffrent

because both could spam in aoe

[short radish]

thank fuck lasga isnt around anymore then

[vale pine]

it felt to me like it

[slate marlin]

and they did assa aoe turbo good and sub aoe non existent

[short radish]

so the solution is "make sub not play in aoe"

[slate marlin]

very well spaced imo

[short radish]

[slate marlin]

target achieved

[swift tinsel]

Since we’re the finisher spec, I always thought it would be cool if rupture combo’d with evisc or BP

Or had an additional effect when you used either on a target with rupture up

[tribal blade]

one of the biggest complaints i hear from people trying to pick up sub is not liking the downtime outside cds

and being energy starved

[carmine portal]

When I first started playing sub (literally start of tww) I did not know what to do with myself outside of CD's, I assumed spamming SD and SoD until Blades and Flag were back up was the play

[tribal blade]

yeah the spec is wildly unintuitive

[slate marlin]

Ye but its so fun to play

in st

[tribal blade]

you could give me a million years and i wouldn't think of the correct rotation for sub haha

[carmine portal]

It just felt like the thing to do, every other spec is kinda like that. When your big CDs are over you manage your resources and other small things until you can combo again which feels fine but with sub you acidentally press one wrong SoD or SD and suddenly your next lineup is fucked

[slate marlin]

yep, holding your "flexible" cds for big cds is unintuitive af

When i started playing sub it felt ass to have sod and sd and not use them for 30 seconds

[carmine portal]

And I do agree, sub is the most fun I've had on a DPS in a long time, I still really enjoy frost Dk and spriest but

Sub feels really rewarding

[swift tinsel]

It’s the most rewarding in the game imo

[patent lichen]

The sectech dopamine hits me hard

[carmine portal]

Most rewarding dps maybe

[patent lichen]

See it crit for 10+ mil and just

[slate marlin]

Its so sexy

then u go to a pack with no cds

and cry

[carmine portal]

Most rewarding thing overall is healer imo, nothing beats pulling off what should've been a wipe in a high key bcus you managed your CDs perfectly/knew exactly what to do outside of them

[patent lichen]

LMAO big true, but at least we don't have to restealth

[tepid trellis]

tbf if played right, neither does the other 2 specs

[patent lichen]

I love when my tank apologizes for pulling bad and I go "it's k, me sub"

[patent lichen]

I mean fair lol

[swift tinsel]

I just put “pull big” in chat every 1:30 lol

[patent lichen]

Lol

[slate marlin]

assa requires non griefing tanks for that but ye

[swift tinsel]

Ah the 5% leash

[patent lichen]

Lol you mean "chain pulling"

In quotations for a reason

[tepid trellis]

we just refer to that as bad tanking

[slate marlin]

when a tank chains 4 mobs at 30% hp allowing you to go full ham at the next psck

[swift tinsel]

I’m spoiled bc the tank I play with usually used to play rogue so he knows the game

[slate marlin]

t fills mr with joy

[tepid trellis]

my tank never does it

and he has been playing with me for over 5 years

duality of man

[carmine portal]

haha

[tepid trellis]

all he hears is a loud audible sigh

[slate marlin]

Well stealthi, you should hit your friend with your claws

[tepid trellis]

then he goes "im sorry"

[carmine portal]

bro knows how you perform with his current tanking style and is fine with it

[tepid trellis]

and i go

[carmine portal]

start underperforming

[tepid trellis]

"no you are not"

[patent lichen]

I just play sub

[slate marlin]

does 5 years of audible sigh mean nothing to him? would break my heart

[tepid trellis]

tbf this season he had an excuse

cuz we played with a ret

fcking hammers

[swift tinsel]

Ew

[patent lichen]

Lol

[carmine portal]

A paladin or a low IQ fella

oh wait

[patent lichen]

Fair enough

[swift tinsel]

We gkicked one of ours lol

[carmine portal]

(no flame)

[tepid trellis]

this ret is prolly one of the best rets in the game lol

the amount of dmg that freak did

[swift tinsel]

If he used BoP once he’s in the 99.99th percentile already

[carmine portal]

thats what happens when your spec is simple tho, you can really iron out so much clunk

(you ought to be able to atleast)

[slate marlin]

my guildie ret does a bazillion dmg and uses every single piece of utility he has

sad he gets 0 invites and gets burned

[tepid trellis]

the best dps player ive played with in the game or tied with 1 other person

i raided with him for 3 years

[carmine portal]

when i was raidleading in nyalotha goddamn we had 3 rets or smth in our mythic team and they were moronically good

[slate marlin]

my ret guildie is 2nd best for me, 1st being casualaddict on his shaman carrying the fuck out of me in s1

[tepid trellis]

and im usually very

not nice

when it comes to if i think people are good or not

he was the type of person you would be lucky to have in your raid team

[carmine portal]

you can be afforded that when you are A. very good yourself or B. Extremely experienced as an analyst

[tepid trellis]

he grinds like a mfer, does all the prep in the world for the raid

he did our prep work for gallywix this tier

we banged that mfer out in 43 pulls

due to his prep

[slate marlin]

blessed to have him then

[tepid trellis]

sucks that he quit when we disbanded after gally died

[carmine portal]

Why'd the disband happen?

Just went boom?

[tepid trellis]

gm stepped down

[carmine portal]

Ah the classic

[tepid trellis]

nobody wanted to pick up the mantle

[carmine portal]

It's not easy to guidlead

[tepid trellis]

gm, RL and tank

[carmine portal]

Done it twice over the years and it always burned me out

oof

[tepid trellis]

and finding a guild at wr 50 ish level

where you can one trick ret

is not an easy task

[vale pine]

i think they consider having diffrences in design between specs

e.g. you see it with cooldown timings

90 sec on sub while it was initially 120 sec

its just a theory tho, maybe its coincidence

[slate marlin]

who knows

whats clear is that sub needs to get worked on

[short radish]

yeah but sub doesnt need a rework

[slate marlin]

but it wont happen this patch at least

[short radish]

sub just needs bug fixes

[carmine portal]

I've got a friend in a hof guild who is an absolute BLASTER when it comes to healers but he has a job, so only has 2 specs REALLY geared and 1 spec decently and the rest of the healer team are Saudi oilers who have every healing spec at max ilvl lol

[vale pine]

i think so many things in the game need to get worked on

[short radish]

i know the thing where "you cant just add devs and solve the problem"

but like....

maybe they could try

[vale pine]

keep in mind that they are very much a american company and profit oriented

[carmine portal]

we should do the DK thing and start a protest

[vale pine]

if anything i would say this xpac has shown the opposite of hireing to be the case

[carmine portal]

surely there's enough of us for them to notice

[slate marlin]

you mean the shaman on alpha and beta thing

[vale pine]

i don't think public outrage is a good tool

it incentivises bad behaviour

[slate marlin]

idk what to tell you fuu, shamans got nothing on alpha, they went absolutrly nuts and they got worked on, its not the best tool and its not the best thing to do either tho

stay small incident

[tepid trellis]

chances are that the changes was already planned just not ready for early alpha

[slate marlin]

we will never know

i dont think they said "shit shamans are rioting lets do something"

[runic trail]

What would be our version of #gripisnotaraidbuff anyhow

[tepid trellis]

if they actually listened to community outrage

parry wouldve been removed from the game

[slate marlin]

i wonder why some specs get worked less on tho

like sub or aff

[carmine portal]

Less populated

easy answer

[slate marlin]

thats a spiral, no work done, so players leave, so less players, so not worked on etc

[carmine portal]

Yup

haha

[lilac stag]

Or let them actually work on the classes and not get pulled putting out fires with poorly planned deadlines. My gut says they don’t get the time they actually need.

[slate marlin]

i agree

[lilac stag]

adding more to poor planning can make matters worse

[short radish]

but imagine if they had

one dev

per class

instead of one dev

per multiple classes

[lilac stag]

that’s what it should be

[slate marlin]

they again insisted on shorting dev cycles

it didnt go well (surprise)

[lilac stag]

they also need someone keeping those class devs on task

[carmine portal]

Nah, should be one dev per spec-type.

[lilac stag]

we’re back in SL dev cycle is what it feels like.

[slate marlin]

i do think they pull class devs off duty to work on other things

[carmine portal]

One for healer, one for tank and one for DPS

DPS players dont know how to balance tanks

[lilac stag]

tanks are usually ex dps

that got sick of waiting in a queue

[tepid trellis]

wouldnt use the word balance for this, its more so they need to design shit

balance is more a numbers thing

[slate marlin]

what i hate the most is the bscklash developers get for doing or not doing x, making them have 0 communicstion

[carmine portal]

yknow what I mean though

I wouldn't want a healer druid OTP who's the druid dev designing/working on how I play feral

[tepid trellis]

thats what happens when you have people that cronically online and dont know how to behave like a normal person

[lilac stag]

it’s not about balance

[slate marlin]

ye, basicaly

[lilac stag]

It about creative ideas to play the spec

or how the spec plays

[carmine portal]

Reworded

[tepid trellis]

thats why you have community feedback

[slate marlin]

would like for realz to be more talkative around here but i also get why he doesnt

[lilac stag]

I don’t expect my UI designer to sit there and back end code like a dev who only codes. Make cool shit conceptually and see what actually works.

[carmine portal]

Yeah but the problem is: that's wasted time, and that's money at these companies. Why get someone who's going to make poor dev decision make two changes when you could just get someone who knows the spec/role to do it in a single change

[tepid trellis]

dont think it bothers him when outlaw people throw a fit over changes ngl

id wager its more so a decision from the heigher ups

[lilac stag]

Zac will be heartbroken

[slate marlin]

well zac is more relaxed now

[fathom adder]

big bosses say fuck sub

there it is

[lilac stag]

we’ve probably put more time into coming up with reasons why things are failing then they’ve actually had time to work on sub.

[slate marlin]

i think it would bother him to go to x discord channel, say somrthing and then have people telling him they could do better snd why isnt he working on x or y

i doubt he has the freedom to work on whatever he wants to do work on

[lilac stag]

its presentation. Why am I spending my free time to listen to people bitch and moan when he isn’t going to tell us any of what’s going on behind the scenes

[tepid trellis]

he grew up on wow

i really doubt

it gets to him

xD

mans used to play pvp professionally

[slate marlin]

oh lol

[carmine portal]

Oh how the great fall

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/donald-duck-please-beg-daisy-duck-heres-a-penny-gif-9204998

This was my favorite realz gif when asked about getting any changes for sub

[slate marlin]

didnt know that

[vale pine]

i don't think one specific thing is bad, its just the sum of many annoying things

[tepid trellis]

yeah it was good

[slate marlin]

#givesubaoe

[lilac stag]

he’s for all we know a good dude. We can be upset at any number of targets. Shit rolls down the hill, not up. Blizzard is the problem.

keep paying for a subscription. You’re enabling the problem.

[short radish]

jokes on you, i havent paid for a subscription in 4 years

[tepid trellis]

dw you will get that next patch when we stop playing Coldblood in dungeons

[carmine portal]

Yeah we payin with gold these days

[tepid trellis]

and go Thistle tea

[slate marlin]

will we?

[lilac stag]

You still are with sales

[tribal blade]

the kush cook??

it's happening?

[hoary sun]

You kappin rn

[lilac stag]

I’m going to have to update the KPB why isn’t it working macro meme

[carmine portal]

If we are going thistle what're we losing for it?

[tepid trellis]

yeh, cb is loosing value due to Sectech actually being softcapped to 5 and not 8

[tribal blade]

and then we can rejoice in accidentally going below 30 energy and proccing tea outside dance

[slate marlin]

cold blood

[tepid trellis]

and the mastery from Tea

helps everything else

[tribal blade]

MMMM

[tepid trellis]

BP-evis-coup etc

[carmine portal]

one talent isn't enough to get to tea

[slate marlin]

also less energy starved out of cds

[hazy breach]

Well the CB row

Into tea row

[tribal blade]

ngl sub feels infinitely better to play with vigor talented

[carmine portal]

Ah so CB and Lethality?

[slate marlin]

will it be the play, or is it a maybe?

[lilac stag]

How? You’re using it in CDs

[hazy breach]

But ye sectech does relatively less damage

Since coup does more

[slate marlin]

vigor

[short radish]

wait so you do this instead?

[tribal blade]

it balances itself out if you get more crit, i did sims during DF

[tepid trellis]

yeh

[vale pine]

yes

[tribal blade]

should be the same

[hazy breach]

It doesnt actually matter that much

[short radish]

that... kinda makes sense?

[lilac stag]

Still low energy

[short radish]

less sectech but more damage in dance

i assume you just macro tea to sectech

[carmine portal]

yeah but i do like the idea of vigor

[hazy breach]

Both tea and cold blood kinda suck ass

[slate marlin]

you will also get it procced out of cds

[tribal blade]

would we be playing tea in pure ST too

[lilac stag]

you don’t want that

[carmine portal]

yeah it has a passive attached to it that auto-consumes

[hazy breach]

No

[swift tinsel]

just don't proc tea

[tribal blade]

damn

[tepid trellis]

you will proc it

[short radish]

just afk out of cds

[tepid trellis]

wont get away from that

[hazy breach]

People will overthink and complain about it just like they do on assa

When they proc their tea

[lilac stag]

people would need to play sub in keys through

[tribal blade]

i have to admit the feeling of being outside cds as sub w/ tea talented and being able to storm>finish without delays

does feel nice

[fathom adder]

if i could wish for small changes i would like for them to revert the energy reg nerf that came with the rework and more dance cdr

[slate marlin]

i got used to just ignoring tea

[fathom adder]

i would be happy then, its fun either way

[lilac stag]

feeling restored. We’re so back. Also why is assa doing 1 million more than us overall?

[slate marlin]

bc assa has actual aoe gameplay

(spamming envenom)

[haughty rose]

Crazy how they haven't changed tea to either manual use or auto use.

Is any other ability both like tea is?

[lilac stag]

oh wait. We’re not good in aoe because of funnel dmg.

[carmine portal]

Eh, I dont mind tea being set and forget sorta

[lilac stag]

Name checks out

[fallow nimbus]

You mean a choice node like other classes have for some abilities?

Do we even have 1 choice node?

[hazy breach]

Just macro tea to dance and dont think about it

[carmine portal]

Spriest Shadowcrash/Elesham Earthquake type beat

[vestal escarp]

We as in rog or sub?

[slate marlin]

master of shadows and the 1st dance

and the crit/haste on sod

[tribal blade]

lol so true

[hazy breach]

Night terrors

And the vanish shield ones

A couple of choice nodes, but the alternatives are not real alternatives so

[swift tinsel]

wym warning signs goated

[vestal escarp]

Bruh

[lilac stag]

tea could have had 2 brews as a choice node. One more energy (auto use) less mastery. The on use more mastery, less energy.

[tribal blade]

warning signs a truly genius idea

to give the spec that hates haste a talent to give haste

[lilac stag]

leech in stealth

[tribal blade]

deserves a nobel prize

[lilac stag]

Darwin Award more like it

[vale pine]

+1 we did that before already

[hazy breach]

Ye but not everybody was here back then

[vale pine]

good point

[lilac stag]

some of “us” made better choices than the rest of us.

jk love rogue. Best class

[vestal escarp]

[hardy snow]

it seems quite okay to just buff the first coup?

[hazy breach]

The second would generally be better, but yes its not the end of the world

Not working with shadowed finisher is expected, but sad to see

[hardy snow]

you cannot guarentee the cp and buff status for the 2nd coup in many scenarios

[hazy breach]

Its moreso the fact that the tooltip says the wrong thing about first vs second coup that feels off

[vestal escarp]

second coup is too often outside dance anyway

[void ocean]

it looks more like a fooltip to me

since it just fools around with us

https://tenor.com/view/i'll-see-myself-out-mirror-awkward-gotta-go-leaving-gif-17903140709306441465

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

Im not sure the extra coup damage is sticking around anyway, its likely to get nerfed for sub

[void ocean]

i have friends i swear

[swift tinsel]

125-130% max

would be quite surprised if it isn't nerfed

[void ocean]

why? cant be that op

[tepid trellis]

it does quite the fcking hit

[void ocean]

so

i mean, does it make us op overall

[tepid trellis]

well whats likely gonna happen is the same as this tier

tierset nerfed

baseline buffed

[swift tinsel]

hell yeah bs and rupture buff

again

[tepid trellis]

dont think they wanna have tiersets at 40% dmg

[hardy snow]

i think the first coup 50% is okay for its worth. we're not any place ahead, right?

[alpine wraith]

big shadowstrike energy

[swift tinsel]

I'd take a 15% shadowstrike buff

[slate marlin]

bp added to darkest night and buffed by 25%

[hazy breach]

Tbf its only 30%, but ye

[slate marlin]

I dont mind any tier nerf as long as arcane gets the hammer

[lilac stag]

jealousy isn’t pretty

[slate marlin]

its not jelousy dont get it wrong

its hatred towards mages

[swift tinsel]

they're fuckin swimming in intuition procs rn

[slate marlin]

they are swimming in blue posts

well they are swimming in everything

[hardy snow]

first dance fixed tho

Rogue fix and patch simply no need to be written since they're done stealthly

[swift tinsel]

their tier sets are kind of a mess rn so its valid lol

[slate marlin]

Oh no

anyway

[leaden prairie]

im quite suprised it wasnt a outlaw only thing from the get go

[hazy breach]

Ye

[willow fulcrum]

sorry bro i didnt see ur msg

sec tech nimble flurry the usual

[hazy breach]

What trinkets are outlaw looking at

[leaden prairie]

Legit no idea

Everything seems bad for outlaw

I think we are likely to play with a on use stats trinket again

Whichever is stronger r

Just cause on hit trinkets are a bit meh

[hazy breach]

Ye thats why i asked

[leaden prairie]

Idk didn't find anything that seemed incredible

I have been playing prism

And Crit from floodgate

Idk xd

Prims damage hit proc is already worth probably

In dungeons

[slate marlin]

is idol not good on outlaw?

maybe u didnt loot it

[hazy breach]

Im hoping prism gets buffed because right now it seems like for sub we'd prefer to play the 2 minute one for fights that are like 5 minute or shorter and prism for everything else

Cap the stack at 18 or 20 instead of 15 so we can skip a CD set and double it and give it to the next set

[alpine wraith]

yea having to use prism weirdly is so sad

like using it at like 3 stacks to not overcap at 3 mins

or 4 i dont remember

[swift tinsel]

usually 3

depends on if you line it up with time or 3rd dance/sectech

[torn storm]

give sub omega banger 3 min trinket pls