subtlety

[cloud rover]

25% Gloomblade dmg

[haughty mural]

[hardy galleon]

If some1 could help me a bit would be great: while im waiting for my flag/shadowblades and ready to use my minor CDs, should secret techinique always be the 1st finisher after cloak/symbols? Im wondering if my secret techinique is on like 6sec cd but i can send cloak/symbols, should i hold the cds for secret tech to come online or okey if i cloak/symbol > evi > backstab > ST?

[lilac stag]

We don’t send dance (what you’re calling cloak) with symbols together. They should be close but not always together.

[chrome palm]

yes sec tech as first finisher in dance, or coup de grace outside of blades

[lilac stag]

You can send dance evis or stab evis then symbols depending on cdr and timings

[hardy galleon]

all right thanks

did symbols supercharged buff effect two finishers or just one btw? :P

[hazy breach]

Two

[lilac stag]

The biggest thing to worry about is flag windows

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hardy galleon]

yeah i´v been practicing the flag window down pretty well, just still not 100% sure how to optimise my damage outside the main CDs

but thanks for help!

[lilac stag]

We don’t do damage outside of CDs. The single dance is hardly anything to write home about.

a lot of it is just not fucking up your next 90 second go by sending stuff you likely should have held

it’s hard to practice on a dummy as well since skyfury def helps our CDR

[hardy galleon]

ah didnt even think about skyfury, but it helps with energy gen and helps with combo points outside dance i assume?

[hazy breach]

It makes you get roughly 20% more auto attacks

And since we have a decent chunk of our combo point regen tied to auto attacks

[lilac stag]

it’s the auto attacks and sht procs

[hazy breach]

Its like ~10% more combo points overall

[graceful crown]

it should throw shurikens to get passive CPs instead autoattacks :D

passive shuriken throws to help getting passive CPs at range and dont need to autoattack

nah epic

[lilac stag]

[graceful crown]

[haughty mural]

Overcooked

[chrome palm]

Make the shurikens hit out of combat mobs and break stealth and I’m in

[lilac stag]

Getting close to paid for friends for m+ cooking

[haughty mural]

Make shuriken tornado like new ks just with shuriken and your done with overcooking

40yard range and cone obv

[chrome palm]

Who was the guy in Naruto with the giant shuriken on his back

Idk how it’ll work but I need that in my kit

[opal basalt]

I wonder when or if the button pruning will hit Sub rogue and Blizz just puts Dance/Symbols and Flag/Blades into one CD each

Not the current iterations obviously

But changed/tuned for it to properly work

[chrome palm]

Sub doesn’t even have that many abilities compared to most classes

[opal basalt]

My bars are definitely fuller than on fdk or assa

[hazy breach]

The absolute number doesnt really matter that much

Its moreso the fact that we have several buttons that do the same thing and/or is always pressed at the same time or together

Like cold blood should absolutely get the same treatment bonespike and echoing reprimand has gotten

The way it plays right now is just janky

[chrome palm]

Wish they brought back the damage that flagellation would do

I remember it being really impactful

[lilac stag]

dance should be the powerful cd. Merge blades into it

[chrome palm]

Now it’s like <1% or something

[lilac stag]

flag is just a dmg amp of sorts these days

[opal basalt]

It reminds me of that shadow ability

I don’t remember the name rn

But it got pruned

[chrome palm]

Mind games?

Which one are you talking about

[hazy breach]

They could just straight up remove flag and it wouldnt matter much

Probably the replicating shadow cd thing sub had for a little bit

[alpine wraith]

shadow reflection

was cool but more of a pvp thing

than pve

[lilac stag]

Either Flag or Blades needs to go / get worked into something else.

The amount of time we’re in dance is good, dance as the amp is just underwhelming.

[hazy breach]

Idk dance is like a 50% damage amp, its not particularly underwhelming

[chrome palm]

Think it could use a energy reduction

Feels really bad to press feint in dance

[opal basalt]

Mind games also fits what I meant but it was Disc priests schism

[distant sage]

how high should i push mastery and vers on sub what are ideal numbers for them

[opal basalt]

That you basically just pressed for the amp

[slate marlin]

My issue is dance cdr, dance is still cool af imo

[hazy breach]

Just dont get haste

[north schooner]

just sim it when it comes to stats, there are no magic numbers

[distant sage]

in my best sim my vers is higher than mastery

[hazy breach]

Ye then get that

Probably almost no difference either way

[opal basalt]

Same for me rn

The robot is always right

Unless there is some sim bait trinkets or bugs on blizzards end (rip echoing void)

[haughty mural]

I have also more vers than mastery right now

Doesn’t matter that much

I trust my sims

[haughty mural]

Agreed, dance is not that weak atm

[alpine wraith]

we just have a laot of baseline noodleness

but that is by design

[remote shuttle]

I try stay 25% vers so with dudu and vers flask It goes like 30% then i just stack mastery

[hazy breach]

Why would that matter

[north schooner]

placebo

[vestal escarp]

why would anything matter

[hidden spade]

Am I doing something wrong if I can't get my second sectec in the first dance window with TFD on dummies without BL? Im watching a sub on twitch and he seems to manage it quite often without BL

[runic trail]

Might be due to a lack of windfury maybe?

[hidden spade]

ahh yeah that must be it ty!

[vestal escarp]

mind that casting 2nd sectech as last or second to last global of yout 12s dance might make clones end up outside amplifications

[hidden spade]

would that still be the cast if you cast the second dance immediately after that sectec?

the case*

[hazy breach]

No

Its if you leave a gap inbetween them

[vestal escarp]

in that case you're resetting danse stacks

[hidden spade]

ahh ok

[hazy breach]

Ye but it doesnt matter

[vestal escarp]

which would make you question why do it in first dance anyway

[hazy breach]

So proc more flawless forms and get it on cd

[vestal escarp]

ok but it's not like sub is on a cdr race for subsequent sectechs after your flag window

[warm marlin]

If you play tfd you can chain 3 dances in the opener and carry over some of your flagellation mastery and flawless form into the 3rd

If you don’t sectec asap you grief the third dance

[hidden spade]

the player im watching sometimes does in the first 12s dance during flag/blades and sometimes doesn't, is there anything that could affect this or is this purely choice?

[warm marlin]

If they don’t have a shaman or bl it might be proc dependent to get it consistently

I don’t think there is ever a reason to delay the sectec cast

[hidden spade]

would that be shadow techniques procs?

[warm marlin]

yes

[hidden spade]

ok cool ty

[warm marlin]

if this is a key specifically they might be doing stops or something to delay it

maybe holding sectec for after a mob casts shield in ws or for footman to get stopped in priory idk

[hazy breach]

Sometimes you get to cast it with like 3/4s left of your first tfd dance

Thats when you do the blast

[haughty mural]

Probably I’m washed

[north schooner]

"of your first the first dance dance"

[hazy breach]

Well the first dance if youre specced into tfd

[charred sandal]

tfdtfd

[mental dune]

how has sub and rogue in general looked in ptr?
it seems to be concerningly untouched like last season
playstyle im assuming is the same i mean numbers*

[runic trail]

Tier set got changed yesterday which people are viewing as good

[alpine wraith]

yes but there is no real comparison to other classes apart from first looks inside raid testing

and we can be quite good

but there are crazy beasts out there rn

wildin

[hazy breach]

As is often the case practically nobody plays sub on ptr (or rogue in general tbh)

So hard to get any valueable data, but the tierset seems numerically strong

[mental dune]

to be fair nobody plays sub period
but honestly as long as 1 rogue spec is doing well im fine enough
even outlaw which i totally suck at
just would be a sign to learn

granted i imagine outlaw wont be great since there are so many damage amps this season

[tribal blade]

outlaw usually ends up in a good spot

[alpine wraith]

yea only bar i have is my own testing and some friends guilds testing

i got omegagapped

by the big bois

but also the amp boss i could see myself in top 10 at least

so likely skill issue

just mindcontrol more good players to play sub

[tribal blade]

aren't there a bunch of busted specs atm

i saw boomy doing insane dps with their 4pc

[alpine wraith]

idk man people at our lvl just are good and rogue is out there

[mental dune]

boomy is bugged for sure

[alpine wraith]

but when you have like 3 hunters 2 mm 1 bm 2 boomkins

1 ret 2 dks

1 warr 1 sham

top 10 seems a good bar

[hazy breach]

I heard they fixed a bunch of the bugged stuff

But who knows

[alpine wraith]

they will tune moonkin set and others a bit more for sure

[mental dune]

but mm/bm shadowpriest are also just REALLY strong
without any bugs to my knowledge

[alpine wraith]

they changed some dk things the other day

[tribal blade]

just pray rogue actually gets some notes

because so far it's not been looking good

[alpine wraith]

hey we got 2 lines already

[hazy breach]

Well mm got their tier halved

[alpine wraith]

that is like almost 50% of the budget

they may buff assa 1 or 2 times

[tribal blade]

they updated the 1 button rotation for sub 🙂

[alpine wraith]

maybe

[tribal blade]

that counts as sub dev time

[alpine wraith]

yea now it wont try to use deadly poison as sub

[mental dune]

oh yeah the fact that that was the only rogue note was so funny

[alpine wraith]

nice

[mental dune]

and that its strictly only poisons

[tribal blade]

yup this is the rogue life

[alpine wraith]

well it is a fast thing to fix

[hazy breach]

Unclear why they didnt include the tier change in the notes

[tribal blade]

with dev attention

[alpine wraith]

so you cant really ask them too much

maybe they want to tune the set again

after initial passing

may be too strong

[tribal blade]

yeah not sure why they didn't either

[vestal escarp]

and has to be supercharged right?

[alpine wraith]

but also if they changed it why not add it

once again version problems

let's suppose it is 2 diff people and someone forgot to put that the change was pushed

[lilac stag]

We’re just the same mid tuned dps with a slightly above avg tier

[alpine wraith]

in the doc for the person to write the update

[lilac stag]

Rogue tuning is the issue

[alpine wraith]

the day where we got double buffed

to 10% instead 5% and we were mighty top 7 dps

although many good people didnt even try sub before the fix came

so you never know

[lilac stag]

Assa only shining on execute or big funnel. ST still bad

[mental dune]

dam i wasnt insane
i popped in for raid after the buff n completely gapped everyone by a huge margin

felt way more than 5%

[alpine wraith]

yea idk about gapping

but yea it was 10% for like 1 day and a half

i was like wait i can see myself on details

something's not quite right

[lilac stag]

For pure dps we’ve got shit raid utility and bad dps. Maybe a niche for adds and amps that won’t matter when most of us get to the bosses

[north schooner]

the trick is to have "always show self" ticked

[mental dune]

we have our raid buff so the raid util can only be so bad

[vestal escarp]

game literally crumbles if billy specs are not top tier

[haughty mural]

The fact that they didn’t even bother to mention the 2p change in the bluepost is making me giggle

[north schooner]

yeah but what about that OBR change though

[mental dune]

wait so did the change go through but they forgot to mention it?

[haughty mural]

I didn’t see it in the notes

Did you ?

[vestal escarp]

[lilac stag]

They just don’t post rogue changes

We got the one button post because that’s likely not a rogue dev

[vestal escarp]

it's a blood oath

[haughty mural]

Yea as I said
They don’t even bother

[patent crystal]

Crazy

[vestal escarp]

who puts rog changes in a blue posts gets cursed for 10 weeks

[haughty mural]

„They’ll find out eventually, I guess“

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/are-you-new-here-melissa-nufo-you-must-be-new-here-is-this-your-first-time-gif-27029610

[hazy breach]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923898501529600/1390408246048718929/image.png?ex=68682616&is=6866d496&hm=f0310a8f72310896daf317c14d3f20366bd2ea0f2e0f8fbb4f849e9ab750e57f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=304&height=30

Instead of resetting the cd

[haughty mural]

Or
„They are rogues. They all will read the datamines anyway“

[vestal escarp]

weapon master in the tierset

[mental dune]

ye i saw that part was just wondering if that already went live
since it was in a "datamined changes post" so i thought we would get that in a week or something

[haughty mural]

So weaponmaster rework in the making ?

[hazy breach]

Its unironically 10x as strong as weaponmaster

[vestal escarp]

the 0 bandaids to DS so far make me think something is cooking for 12.0

i woke up delulu today

[hazy breach]

Surely

[vestal escarp]

[alpine wraith]

man wm is so bad

like shadow focus

after getting nerfed 8 times

who would have though

wm went from 10 to 8 to 6 to only builders 15%

sf from 25 to 20 to 15 to 10 to 5

[hazy breach]

Tfd, wm, replicating, improved sht and gloomblade are all having a mid-off in our tree

(SF and pv arent invited because theyre not mid, theyre margin of error)

[haughty mural]

That’s why I didn’t even bother changing to SF in st

[alpine wraith]

lingering not even in the list

it is that remarkable

[swift tinsel]

The fact that it’s still in the tree is remarkable

[alpine wraith]

at least it is not in the way like PV is

it is like that crazy guy that takes drugs a lot but he is on his house but no one cares

vs the one in the park that shits in the trashcans

[hazy breach]

Well lingering and goremaw are not competing for the same points like those first i mentioned

But yes lingering also not good, goremaw a bit better but leaves a lot to be desired

[alpine wraith]

goremaw had lots of potential

even in its dmg they nerfed it too much

although it used to have a longer cd but idk

[left ledge]

Fuck it

Bring back df s1/2 gloom/lingering

[swift tinsel]

[haughty mural]

Name checks atleast

[tepid trellis]

i hope they bring back sophic devotion for your ass

[swift tinsel]

And only him plz god

[strange chasm]

bring back sylvanas dagger

[swift tinsel]

Merge dark brew into replicating, put edge of night in finality spot and make finality capstone

[void hound]

Bring back the joy and whimsical fun from when we were young

[alpine wraith]

i would not mind hollow toxin and soul cap coming back

it was fun the evening they worked on dastardly

[north schooner]

poor MoS not even cool enough to be mentioned

[swift tinsel]

Soul cap but it collects dance damage

[opal basalt]

Just quit your job, eat hot pockets and Doritos, drink nothing but Mountain Dew and play MoP Classic @void hound

[nocturne scroll]

Soul cap with hasten ppm just to mess with our stats /s

[opal basalt]

Surely it’ll be the same as it was back in 2012

[void hound]

It’s not the same

[opal basalt]

[swift tinsel]

Ah to be 22 watching Killars stream while farming Green Tea Leaf

Or tending to my Tillers plot

[opal basalt]

Hey, I’m 23

[swift tinsel]

Just a bebe

[opal basalt]

People are looking back at my age fondly, damn

[swift tinsel]

Times were simpler lol

Had fewer bills and more hair

Jk jk still rocking a luscious mullet

[opal basalt]

Imagine one thing that could solve both problems

Oh wait there is one

[swift tinsel]

I work for a university aintnoway lol

A broke one at that

[opal basalt]

That doesn’t sound too bad actually

[alpine wraith]

just be corrupt like everyone

[opal basalt]

In IT, administration or as a teacher?

[alpine wraith]

become a rogue irl

[swift tinsel]

I work in a lab so I don’t have a union or tenure to protect me lol

[swift tinsel]

Ours was so bad the chancellor had to resign this year lmao

After driving it into the ground then firing 200 people to cover his ass

[alpine wraith]

ah classic college

[swift tinsel]

Yeah thankfully we’re covered by a federal grant bc we do NAGPRA so we’re semi-protected but not really

[opal basalt]

Oh wait a university in the US

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[opal basalt]

Nvm what I said then

You’re screwed kinda

[swift tinsel]

So it’s taken less seriously than literally anywhere on the planet lol

[opal basalt]

What I think is funny is that

I pay 72€ a semester

And my profs still earn like 5-7k a month

[swift tinsel]

Damn dude ours start at $55k a year

[opal basalt]

So where does all the money go in the states?

[swift tinsel]

Admin

100%

Their salaries are insanely bloated compared to any other position or tier of professorship

We’re at a pretty small school and the chancellor was making $350k

Plus they can expense anything from a house to their cars

[alpine wraith]

it is like sub devs you wonder wher they are

then you remember they are not really sub devs but rogue devs

or not actually

they are a team of class devs

[swift tinsel]

Dev Council

[opal basalt]

Well at least rogues know who’s their guy kinda

[alpine wraith]

but hey maybe we can see hope in some things

if the DS set stinks enough they may change it

[swift tinsel]

One of them wields void-colored glaives and a rogue helm

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!

[keen dome]

Rogue's getting glavies

[opal basalt]

I’ve never heard of who the DK or monk dev is

[swift tinsel]

I thought dk was scarizard before he moved on to items but I could be misremembering

Realz is the only one I know of that has any direct ties to any classes

[opal basalt]

Yeah

[swift tinsel]

Maybe he does priest too and they’re getting all the updates we aren’t bc I know he used to play it a fair bit way back when

Was healing tho iirc

Was like 20ish years ago

[opal basalt]

What I gathered from Max’ interviews with various Blizz devs is that blizzard doesn’t like it to be known who’s responsible for what

[swift tinsel]

Remember seeing him in Hoodrych or Reckful streams

Yeah that’s generally a good idea

Harder to make targeted threats

[tepid trellis]

i only know of two people that works on classes, realz being one of them, and other one i dont know by name but i know he works on priest

[alpine wraith]

yea it is very misterious

but also understandable

for a game known to be krangled you dont want your few devs that know how shit works to get more harrassed

[swift tinsel]

Yeah 100%

As much as I love having a direct line of communication

[alpine wraith]

from the talks we had from scari and realz code must be like the amazon forest

[opal basalt]

Didn’t the dude who “made zskarn” get literal death threats once it was public knowledge

[swift tinsel]

Probs

People on the internet are dumb as fuck

[alpine wraith]

nowdays you get death threats for anything in the internet

[swift tinsel]

I’ve been told to kms in YouTube comments bc I didn’t know a singer could also play drums in a band I listened to in high school lol

[opal basalt]

Yeah man how can you be so clueless smh my head

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-kermit-kermit-the-frog-jump-off-gif-17801028

[brittle plinth]

Did you do it?

[haughty mural]

I start believing azor himself is the hunter dev

Would explain the amount of things they get lately

[brittle plinth]

Based on how that spec is getting every wet dream improvement, me too

[swift tinsel]

Lmfao you’re kidding

[haughty mural]

Source: trust me bro

[brittle plinth]

The MM rotation had one tiny nuance which was suddenly evened out, it is a bit sus. Some hunters playing some of it as a nerf but I suspect a lot of it is making MM the 1button class of the year.

Source: Trust me bro

Source: uncle works at Nintendo

[swift tinsel]

Whoever is the hunter dev tho they’ve gotta be getting the sloppiest top on the reg with the Princess treatment they’ve been getting

Same with dev evoker

[haughty mural]

The aura buff is a good one

[left ledge]

I heard sub rogue is meta in raid and m+ next season

[vestal escarp]

Esp the latter

[haughty mural]

It always is …

….in here

[vale pine]

shrödingers meta spec

[novel vector]

meta in the first week

[north schooner]

wdym sub is top 3 spec ||on normal mode||

[midnight ledge]

if you're doing an AoE rotation on a larger pull (10+), and you come across the situation of having 2 super charged points with Sec Tech off cd, Coup Proc'd do you: 1st point Sec Tech, 2nd point Coup or black powder? or do you ignore coup till the enemy count drops down to 5-6 enemies?

Does that change if one of the enemies has insanely high health in comparison so you prio down that enemy, and you may do less aoe overall, but more important damage because prio mob is dying faster and your aoe is basically just nimble

[left ledge]

You never ignore coup

It is probably the most important thing to press esp with the upcoming tier

[solemn lance]

Makes sense. I thought it was blizzard doesn't actually know who is responsible for what

[swift tinsel]

Equally possible lol

[zenith prism]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Xw4NnHykVWFTBcmp?fight=last&type=damage-done

test sub in PTR

feels really good with double coup

[pliant topaz]

as a general rule of thumb, more resources ALWAYS feel better across all specs.

[silent ruin]

during mythic gallywick, when he he is at the center hole and adds spawn, is there a bug where sending secret technique on the boss doesn't fully register across adds and boss, and nimble flury also faces range problems ?

[bleak night]

nimble is around you so just make sure you stand on the adds

but yes sectec wont hit adds if you use it on boss

hes too far away

if you use it on adds it'll hit him though

[silent ruin]

i see

and if sec tech is hit on boss, do the shadows also hit him or just the physical one strike ?

[bleak night]

it cleaves him just like normal

and if you use it on him directly it works like normal on him

its just his model is way smaller than his hitbox, so if you use it on him the shadows spawn on his model and are too far from the adds

smarter person can correct me if im wrong on anything, this is just what ive seen said here before

[silent ruin]

ok thanks !

[hazy breach]

Nop thats correct, you need to target adds to do clone damage to them

[lilac stag]

sectech the adds. Not gally

[frail skiff]

man why is rogue so hard to play

[keen dome]

What are you struggling with?

[warm depot]

someone post the guy image

[bronze turret]

from 1 to 10

how shit is wow and how shit is sub rogue atm

[keen dome]

I'd give WoW a 7/10 and Sub rogue a 6.5/10.

[thorny rivet]

Almost maximum shit

[alpine wraith]

depends on what content you do

if you only raid and do m+ for gear

wow is like a high 8 to 9 if you like it

rogue is mid as f tho although quite fun to play

so like a 6

now if you are mental and like pushing m+ or doing pvp

[silent ruin]

thanks !

but shouldn't they fix sec tech, assa rogues can just blindly spatter off main target with spatters always landing

[bleak night]

well

assa had the exact same problem with spatter until recently

if boss hitbox was too big spatter just wouldnt hit

but yes there should be something done about sectec too

[north schooner]

they can start by removing the pet element

[bleak night]

but they'd break it if they tried

lets be real

[runic trail]

Yeah I keep forgetting to move to adds, too spatter-brained.

Also, popping cooldowns on add spawns in raid, big dopamine.

Managed to time it with some rik barrels and

[lilac stag]

The bugs are bad. Raid is ok. Sub is fine but really fucking irritating if you start dwelling on all the broken shit.

tuning for rogue is abysmal

[proper latch]

Double on use trinket might be good for sub in the next season?

This shit is too good

[steel zinc]

Nah there is for sub in the new dungeon a new house of cards

The trinket perse is good just not that good for sub

[proper latch]

I know

That's why double on use

[steel zinc]

You have spymaster for that

[proper latch]

You use new "house of cards" for your second burst

[steel zinc]

Nah spymaster is better for sub rn

[proper latch]

You mean this one?

[haughty mural]

yes

[lilac stag]

Our non flag dances aren’t that important, or not important enough for the double on use unless both trinkets are broken.

You’re basically buffing 8 seconds of ok damage.

[proper latch]

Double on use so you can have trinket for every burst

Since one of them is on 2 minutes

[lilac stag]

We only have one burst

You run UN

[proper latch]

Can't even get 15 stacks between bursts

[haughty mural]

if you play a 1.5 it is up for every burst

[swift tinsel]

You can play around it with double on-use

Use at 30sec to cap stacks for 3min flag

[haughty mural]

even if netherprism aint up for second burst it for sure is up for third

[swift tinsel]

But you can also use other on-use for on-pull burst if it makes sense for the fight

[haughty mural]

use your new budget hoc for first eg

[proper latch]

But this another on use is essentially a dead weight

[swift tinsel]

There are options for double on use or prism+passive

[haughty mural]

and play from there

its not even dead weight because it does decent dmg on the proc itself

[hollow spear]

Guess it's encounter dependant

[haughty mural]

also that

[swift tinsel]

Not if you use a 1.5min trinket on pull and at 90sec

And adjust around 3min prism

Use prism into third dance in opener

Maybe waste a single stack if you get 3rd dance extra early otherwise it lines up very well

[haughty mural]

do we already know when dimensius phases are roughly ? i guess not

[swift tinsel]

Dimensius not being tested I thought

[hollow spear]

There's quite some damage amps I think, not only dimensius

[chrome palm]

Have you tested throughout?

[bleak night]

this raid has a lot of damage amps for sure

not sure how all the timings will line up

but good potential

[swift tinsel]

Only dummy so far, I wanna run mythics this weekend

[chrome palm]

Have to imagine it’s hard to execute well outside of raid

[proper latch]

There will never be another Smolderon 😦

[swift tinsel]

I assume m+ use will be a bit more flexible which will lean into prism flexibility more so passive might be better there

Need to get a better contextual feel

[chrome palm]

Especially on ptr tanks don’t know what the hell they’re doing

So a lot of like tiny packs that don’t live and you don’t wanna blades there

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it might be something that doesn’t get solved for a bit

[haughty mural]

its not like its the first time of double on use

for us

[chrome palm]

So you end up stacking higher than otherwise

[swift tinsel]

I could see just using prism as a 1.5 being decent since you’re still getting 8-9 stacks

[warm marlin]

It’s either prism 2min or just prism imo

[haughty mural]

yuh

[swift tinsel]

Just opener is gonna be sketch always

[warm marlin]

Lily so bad

[haughty mural]

my guess is that lily is gonna get buffed a bit

since it is so bad

[swift tinsel]

Yeah the more I play it the more I think it’s just a barely-better HoC

Halls trinket looks better

But likely overturned

Hard to say bc they still don’t have it in yet afaik

[chrome palm]

It gives like the same mastery as hoc lol

Less when hoc is fully stacked I think

[swift tinsel]

Yeah 723 is what, 11k?

Wait 9k

[chrome palm]

I thought it said 9

[warm marlin]

It’s 9

[haughty mural]

yeah thats why i think it will get buffed

[chrome palm]

House can high roll 10

[swift tinsel]

Ye was thinking of prism at :30 which is 11k

Sometimes 14k

[haughty mural]

maybe we can also play pvp badge and prism

[hollow spear]

Wait, how would we line up prism + 2 min?

[swift tinsel]

Play 2min as a 3min

Or you gotta do some janky stuff

[warm marlin]

2min pull, prism 130, 2min 3min, prism 430

[swift tinsel]

Ye

Plus 2min covers triple dance since it’s 30sec long

[chrome palm]

The 2min + prism looks nice for tfd

[swift tinsel]

Unless you get unlucky with sht/tier

Ye it lines up well

Good coverage

If you can get pre-disorient too

[chrome palm]

Wait guys I actually need pi yeah I know it sims bad but look if I run this one talent and pre disorient and I have both on uses then it’s actually really good

Me in about 2 months

[swift tinsel]

I can literally just trade tempered pots to secure PI for the season lol

[chrome palm]

LOL

[swift tinsel]

I’ve got that good-good

Think I’m sitting on 700 atm lol

[haughty mural]

a 2 min that costs me 15% hp is a monka moment tho

[swift tinsel]

You get dance shield

And you’re vers-pilled to the gills

[haughty mural]

EE stonks even higher

[swift tinsel]

Plus we take no damage lol

Between fazed dr, vers, cheat, feint, should only die to stuff that kills through cheat. Or if your healers wanna watch you die to rot dmg lol

[haughty mural]

i rarely die

if so its the latter

[bleak night]

i like to die every once in a while to spice things up

keep the raid on their toes

you know

[brittle plinth]

And tricks

If we die, we usually only have one person to blame

(anyone but us)

[swift tinsel]

The -10million threat modifier on dance laughs at tricks

[runic trail]

Oh hey, we can glamour as ethereals next patch, Gestalt is gonna be loving life

[hollow spear]

Exactly, you want the healers to have you on speed dial

[lilac stag]

I like triggering cheat to remind my raid leader I’m still here.

[north schooner]

if you never proc CD, why even spec it? You must proc it to increase the value of the talent point

[upper narwhal]

Counterpoint, taking elusiveness helps the healer, and fuck healers

[lilac stag]

usually it’s on pull when the tanks are lazy and not standing close enough.

[upper narwhal]

I always get blamed for pulling when that happens even tho it’s the boomkin 99% of times

[haughty mural]

I was a long time elusiveness only enjoyer this season till eleem told in here how buggy it is

[lilac stag]

I can’t be bothered wasting a gcd on feint

[shrewd lantern]

i mean i see no reason to run elu in raid

[lilac stag]

Way more important things to be doing with my life

If 24% versatility isn’t going to save me, what are we actually doing here

[haughty mural]

You are so based for that

[valid yoke]

any good sub rogue vids or creators or watch? Every rogue I know is playing assa now and I wanna learn how to play sub (and outlaw but thats besides the point) xD

[brittle plinth]

shindig started off with sub earlier in the season and has a few great vids on the topic. Nothing has changed.

[valid yoke]

Gotcha, thanks

[shrewd lantern]

Like if you’re 3 healing any early boss this tier

what are you doing

[trail bane]

hi guys, can some1 quickly explain why we Backstab often instead of Shadowstrike in Shadow Dance windows? isnt it less dmg? I've bound Backstab/Shadowstrike to the same button, but looking into quick sim or hekili the sim "always" doing backstab instead of shadowstrike.

[north schooner]

it's for Danse Macabre stacks and you only ever do it as the first builder in SD (spending premeditation on BS)

[shrewd dove]

Hey guys new to rogue but fell in love with sub of all specs, is it looking okay for next szn or is sin / outlaw prob gonna be the go to rogue specs ?

[plush roost]

too early to say

[opal basalt]

it's a matter of tuning, timers and fight type (ST vs AoE) mostly

so just a lot of factors and then again its only like week 3 of ptr

[polar vessel]

hello for how long do supercharged points last?

[upper narwhal]

forever

[sullen hare]

Watch it literally just be the transmitter toy

[tribal blade]

any new updates to the 1 button rotation helper

since this seems to be of the utmost importance for sub

[swift tinsel]

Well now that it’s recommending the correct poisons it’s probably -24.98% damage

[opal basalt]

Is there a raid testing logs sheet already?

I know there is one floating around every season

And I’m curious to see

[chrome palm]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aPZSnwMrSNHRe2Q65XedqmFN4-8P0NlK4Bx03vaxclA/edit?gid=821173246#gid=821173246

[swift tinsel]

Good thing they nerfed mm, those logs are gnarly for them

[hollow snow]

so i started running TFD on Mugzee & notice on my 2nd dance sectech I've got full cps & it's supercharged. is it still worth bs'ing & wasting the global or is it just a full send?

[hazy breach]

Youd just send sectech the moment its ready

Even if its during your first dance

But still supercharge it

[hollow snow]

ok, ty Eleem. just didn't know if it was still worth the danse stack or not even at full cps

[hazy breach]

Getting the flawless form earlier and getting it on cd is worth more, as your third dance will have more overlap of flawless stacks

(Since youll be able to cast the third dance earlier as your sectech is ready sooner)

[hollow snow]

you're a fucking wizard, ty

[spare oar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[distant sage]

does 15k in dungeon slice make that big of a difference in overall dp(im trying to play all 3 specs and my sub will take a hit when i recraft neck for outlaw)

[tribal blade]

not really no

i'm guessing 15k in dslice will equate to roughly 0.5%

[distant sage]

oh nice with recraft my outlaw gains like+80k

[tribal blade]

yeah that would be worth it then

[distant sage]

and one more question what does m+ build sim at like 682 like towards top end of current ilvl

[tribal blade]

not sure for sub, i'm guessing somewhere around 4mil?

i haven't simmed sub in dslice in a while

[sinful zephyr]

man I´m so happy to get rid of the current tier set

[hazy breach]

Replacing a set that roleplays to be random with a set thats actually random

[bleak night]

better because i cant track it and feel bad

[sinful zephyr]

dropping the buff because of a little mis-timing was really bad

[hazy breach]

Bold of you to assume i track it

[bleak night]

based

[hazy breach]

But for reference when i checked sims we had around 3.7 std deviation without a set, 3.9 with undermine tier and 4.4 with new tier

[warm marlin]

can’t wait for more gamba

Surely the delve belt being gone will roughly normalize it right

20% uptime omega stats

[graceful crown]

outstanding rogue damage, gonna get nerfed?

seems like another range dps meta

again

[cyan gull]

I'm a Subtlety Rogue currently creating new rotations. Anyone with any suggestions?

[tribal blade]

@lilac stag timed a 19 rookery doing the zone out tech to swap to sub

THEREFORE

i am a sub rogue in M+

[clever delta]

im blind or why i dont see that 90s on use in latest wow head trinket post?

[warm marlin]

Wowhead is cooked

[clever delta]

so im not blind?

becasue they say all new trinkets and cant find it 😄

[hazy breach]

Well theres the unyielding netherprism

But ye the lily aint on the wowhead post

[hazy breach]

Ive done an entire rookery as sub

Generally wouldnt recommend though

[tribal blade]

how was it?

i feel like it would feel so bad on the trash

at least on the trash before 1st boss

[warm marlin]

@hazy breach I don’t suppose the sectec fazed thing affects casting shadowstrike vs. storm in mass aoe like it did BP

I would rather not press that button

[hazy breach]

Wdym

[warm marlin]

the change for BP targets was because fazed wasn’t working in aoe in sims and nimble isn’t gaining from fazed right

I guess I just assumed because of the timing

[hazy breach]

Thats why i checked ye

[warm marlin]

the same would technically apply to storm

[hazy breach]

As in storm would do more or what

[warm marlin]

ye

[hazy breach]

5% of zero is still zero im afraid

[warm marlin]

fk storm

[hazy breach]

And tier makes strikes better

[warm marlin]

true true

45 energy is so cringe

[tribal blade]

blizz just needs to revert stuff like storm energy cost and deepening cdr

back closer to what it was before

and that already will make sub feel infinitely better to play

[hazy breach]

Idk think it will just lead to dances without symbols in aoe

Which i would argue feels worse than symbols without dance

Probably need a different kind of solution to the problem

[hollow spear]

How does nimble actually work? Is it just choosing random targets or does it prioritise them in a way (like checking for debuffs)?

[haughty mural]

Disagree on that personally

Whereas I can see your point not having supercharge for a dance would suck

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/leonardo-dicaprio-absolutely-fucking-not-gif-4496112

[tribal blade]

🙂

[lilac stag]

Just change your role to red and embrace it.

https://tenor.com/view/darth-vader-dark-side-ride-gif-8821265

[hazy breach]

Idk being in dance and not having energy to use your globals feels way worse imo

The supercharge isnt really relevant

[haughty mural]

Good point

If just sf would do something 😁

[vestal escarp]

Even if the number on SF would not be totally useless talenting into it just to not feel like crap when casting one more non flag dance between flags is a bit silly

And the spec by designs has to hold some stuff to pool resources for cds

It's not like we're dh that gets free casts of stuff when they press their big cd

Or a totally not punishing cdr mechanic

[hollow spear]

It's time to fudge the UN numbers in sims to win against competitors

[lilac stag]

don’t worry. Whispyr will get Fatebound assa fixed as soon as he gets ATT Fiber. Then we will have the perfect rogue spec.

[hollow spear]

My RL would have to take my family hostage to make me play sin

Having to play sin is a clear class swap angle

[haughty mural]

@vestal escarp agreed

[brittle plinth]

Confirmed

[mellow gull]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[mighty citrus]

just read patchnotes and did not saw rogue. has anything been said about it will take more time or is it considered as "rogue is fine"?

[runic trail]

We got a change to our 2 piece, the trickster one

No other changes, there's still time on the PTR for things

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/first-time-meme-first-time-the-ballad-of-buster-scruggs-gif-24656975

[mighty citrus]

yeah all good

just was curious if i missed something

[runic trail]

I am trying to not doom

[frail path]

Rogue generally has less and less frequent notes from what I’ve seen over the years. Often think ”bet rogue section is missing” while scrolling past the other classes

[swift tinsel]

The fact we’ve gotten fixes to tier pretty much every week is nice, no saving it all for the end so it all gets scuffed

Though I would have liked to see hero tree iteration first then adjust tier around that but who knows what the plans are

Might throw in some Zero Calorie Doom later if EB stays as-is lol

[north schooner]

if they had planned to iterate on the trees, they would've had some changes in already

[steel zinc]

Balance wise rogue is in the worse state raid wise since df s2

Outlaw is good in m+ if you build a comp around it and assa is fine too rn

[north schooner]

so my assumption is nothing meaningful will be changed until midnight

[swift tinsel]

Maybe we see the 2pc behavior change to only allow double if current stacks =<2 so it never overcaps

Not holding my breath for that tho

[steel zinc]

Only good rn on ptr for rogue

[north schooner]

and increase the proc chance? otherwise it's just a nerf

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, I’m inclined to agree

[swift tinsel]

Tbf it might need a bit of a nerf in current state

New 2pc is quite strong

[north schooner]

for sub yes, but for outlaw it's nowhere near as good

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I only really talk in the context of sub bc I don’t play the other two, they can adjust them as needed since there’s already a difference between % and whatnot for deathstalker

30% vs 50% on the 2pc

Outlaw also interacts with UB quite differently baseline so that should get looked at

I.e. add pistol shot or any cp generators for both specs ideally

[cobalt vector]

Ye but they they need to allow overcapping. Honestly letting escalating stack to 8 would solve most issues

[swift tinsel]

Well yeah, that would be the ideal scenario

[north schooner]

this is the current tier tuning for both specs

[swift tinsel]

Because of the aforementioned difference in how UB is handled between specs I’m not surprised

And also why UB should be any casted generator

Maybe even throw Ace resets in idc

[north schooner]

I also find it weird that they are trying to tie the bonus to UB because of how differently the specs interact with it. But it's not impossible to balance it given that they are already using different values for other specs

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I’m expecting them to end up different by the time it hits live because of that disparity in play

It’s still relatively early in ptr

[north schooner]

but you can also see that even the 4p has way more impact for sub

which makes sense with how strong sub finishers are

[swift tinsel]

Well yeah but that’s also a function of the 2pc impact

Because sub is able to get to 4 stacks without having to directly play around other frequently-cast generators that don’t proc EB

[north schooner]

yup

[swift tinsel]

That’s why I would have rather seen hero tree iteration to fix that kind of thing before trying to iron out the tier sets which are only highlighting hero tree issues

Kind of a cart before the horse scenario

But our horse is Dead Blanchy

And our cart is Cabbage Guy’s cart from AtLA

[lilac stag]

my guy. How I explain this. We’re cooked until 12.0 ptr

they ain’t changing shit unless it’s a positive bug

outlaw got their KS fix. Assa will get some random fstebound fix. Rogue is saved.

[north schooner]

I don't think it's that easy to rebalance the hero trees impact both trees similarly though. Nor is it necessary. Right now they both behave slighltly differently with UB, the ability they are tied to (KS/SecTec). Just the fact that on live outlaw uses KS more often than sub uses Sectec is enough to change the balance between the two. And on PTR I think KS is used less frequently than SecTec (in casts per minute, since outlaw has a steady cadence but sub's casts are concentrated in burst windows)

so somehow they need to make that work for both specs

and on top of that they have to balance the tier set which affects the very same talents

[runic trail]

I still have some hopium

[north schooner]

if it means that the changes will be less rushed if they arrive with midnight, that would be preferable, no?

[vale pine]

they buffed the set with the tier changes indirectly

[swift tinsel]

Depending on the scope of the changes. I personally don’t think they need a massive overhaul or rework. Just adding an ability that can proc UB

And/or allowing EB to stack higher

[north schooner]

wdym by that? that 2p changes buffed 4p?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/airplane-first-time-nervous-80s-movies-gif-19769548

[vale pine]

30% to double proc instead of reset

2p

[north schooner]

you've lost me, because I think those sims are post 2p buff

[hollow spear]

I guess you're getting more ub per fight, therefore more coups, which makes 4p stronger?

[leaden prairie]

i think it would be enough if it was on ps aswell already

idk how they are gonna balance it between both specs tho

[swift tinsel]

Add PS for outlaw, storm for sub

[leaden prairie]

seems impossible

[leaden prairie]

ok but sub doesnt press storm

so

would it even change anything

[tepid trellis]

we would on AoE

if it procced it xD

[north schooner]

what will storm do in that case? aoe UB?

[leaden prairie]

ah ok

[swift tinsel]

PS can be your backstab/strike and Storm can be our SS

[leaden prairie]

ehj

so you biyuld with strike only cause ub is forcing you to ?

[swift tinsel]

Proc on main target

[leaden prairie]

i touight it was just better with numbling flrryu y

[north schooner]

and random target if no target?

[swift tinsel]

Strike is still used in dance bc it trucks

[tepid trellis]

our nimble is kinda cheeks

we wont even be Evisc'ing on 3 targets during cds anymore

[north schooner]

is zac typing with his feet rn or what

[leaden prairie]

half an hand ye sorry

[leaden prairie]

i see

time to buff trickster

[tepid trellis]

just fix nimble

to actually work with our shit

[north schooner]

nimble flurry is already different for sub, they can up it if they want to still tie it to 3 abilities

[hazy breach]

I dont think having nimble work with our main cooldown is an enormous ask

[tepid trellis]

or u know

fix fazed for outlaw

say you did so for sub

but then dont

uknow

[north schooner]

[hollow spear]

I mean, how much damage are we losing in an aoe scenario with the missing interactions and bugs?

Because to me it feels like it won't bridge the gap

[hazy breach]

Like 10% from shadow not cleaving, 5% from fazed, ~22% from blades

[tepid trellis]

quite a fcking bit

[runic trail]

Trickster just seems... weird to me. I ain't used to it but like, having fazed, unseen blade stacks and flawless form AND find weakness just seems, hard to track.

[hollow spear]

But that's only during cds, not overall?

[hazy breach]

And also strike cleaves like 30-40% less than it should too

[hollow spear]

How so?

[leaden prairie]

ye its a bit cringe ngl

[hazy breach]

Well you dont really need to track flawless or fazed

[leaden prairie]

like unseen blade has no reason to exist cause escalating is already here

fazed is annoying everytime you wanna swap target

me when my target die and i need to press coup

and i cant

cause fazed isnt up

why does fazed exist

[hollow spear]

The usual wa track fazed as part of coup. If coup doesn't show or light up, don't press it. It doesn't matter for anything else.

[runic trail]

I thought the rule of thumb was don't coup if no fazed

[swift tinsel]

Ye that’s how I set mine up

[hazy breach]

Weaponmaster, surprising Strikes&lethality benefits doesnt cleave

[swift tinsel]

Just a pixel glow around escalating but only at 4 if fazed up

[hazy breach]

Ye but youre kinda never in a situation where thats the case

[runic trail]

I need to check if the luxthos one has that.

[north schooner]

does Surprising strikes not boost cleave even on fazed targets?

[hollow spear]

That's so cringe, why can't it just cleave the actual strike damage which includes everything

[hazy breach]

The extra crit damage does not get cleaved no

[north schooner]

although I guess it makes sense because damage amps don't boost cleave

[vale pine]

they are yes

[hollow spear]

Yeah, but that's external amps

Spaghetti code ig

[swift tinsel]

But if the targets are all fazed bc Sectech fazes targets it should still boost

[hazy breach]

Not sure 2p strikes cleaves either, havent checked as im away

[tepid trellis]

keyword there is "should"

[hazy breach]

Wouldnt surprise me if they didnt

[swift tinsel]

They do

[hazy breach]

Does the +30% also get cleaved

[swift tinsel]

Lemme find the ss

[north schooner]

my assumption is that once you talent Surprising Strikes, Fazed is still the aura counting as amplifying the crit damage. So that amplification not cleaving makes sense since the cleave itself is a separate spell. This isn't too different to how Ghostly Strike or other amps don't affect cleaves

[swift tinsel]

I didn’t log since it was just a quick check but I can log later for better #’s

[hazy breach]

No it works just like lethality

[north schooner]

lethality should amp cleave yeah

[runic trail]

I need to look into it more, still learning the spec so I still don't have a full understanding of how trickster works.

[swift tinsel]

Unless you sit on coup for 10sec it should always have fazed up

Bc the UB that procced the 4th stack to allow Coup fazed the target

[hazy breach]

And If you do you should be secteching before the coup anyway

[runic trail]

Okay, that makes sense, thank you!

[hazy breach]

And tracking flawless form is fine, but you dont really need to track the amount of stacks you have. Just knowing if its up or not for evis vs BP on aoe is most of it

But thats also not super important as its up like 90%+

And were mostly casting BP in aoe anyway now

[midnight ledge]

how do you keep Find Weakness up for bp usage these days? Symbols and then Storm?

[swift tinsel]

Pretty much

[hazy breach]

Storm outside of dance usually

Or tornado

The rotten storm thing is comfy but sims dont really like it anymore since we added the fw check to BP

[lilac stag]

are the checks all pushed to simc?

[brittle plinth]

The rottern storm thing?!

What magic do you speak of

[tepid trellis]

rotten gives next builder 100% crit

so you used to do 1 strike into Storm on AoE

to apply FW to everything

[brittle plinth]

Oh that ya

The way he worded it made it sound like it was something different than FW

I got excited

[tepid trellis]

only thing im excited for is to not have to reclear undermine anymore

soonTM

[midnight ledge]

I also saw something about using black powder on 3+ targets now instead of evis. but if one of those is a high health prio target I don't see the reasoning. BP might come out numerically better overall but it feels like padding to me when those mobs will be cleaved down anyways. Logically it seems like the single target rotation would be better and just letting nimble cleave. Maybe less on damage meters but more important damage. idk

[runic trail]

But then in a few months you'll be reclearing the new raid.

Back to the mines

[lilac stag]

Back to m+ hellscape though

[runic trail]

fuck

I've not done M+ since the turboboost dropped, I don't wanna go back.

[tepid trellis]

idm that the first 2 weeks

[lilac stag]

first 2 fine. The crest farm shit after.

[runic trail]

I got capped on gilded just from the vault so, it was fine.

[brittle plinth]

It was an awful raid

I couldn't stand being in there

Why ppl enjoy goblins

[lilac stag]

raid was a banger

[brittle plinth]

I know things are subjective

[lilac stag]

Nothing is going to be fun 20 reclears later

soundtrack alone was amazing

[brittle plinth]

But I know the second I see you typing, I know I will disagree with the comment lol

[tepid trellis]

raid sucked ass

[lilac stag]

it’s ok. You admit you’re wrong with bad takes.

[tepid trellis]

most unfun raid ive had the displeasure of progressing

and farm

[runic trail]

Raid sucked less for me due to being benched on stix prog

[chrome palm]

Was not big on how most bosses were being fought in a dung heap

[tepid trellis]

thematically i hated it

[tepid trellis]

raid design

i hated it

[brittle plinth]

Same

[tepid trellis]

tuning

[brittle plinth]

It was awful

[tepid trellis]

i hated it

[leaden prairie]

new raid looks cool

[lilac stag]

you hate sub so there’s that as an underlying theme.

[brittle plinth]

So do you tho lol

[chrome palm]

I think people underestimate how important the theme is, the new raid felt like a breath of fresh air

[tepid trellis]

i do NOT care what spec i play on prog

i care about the raid being fun

[lilac stag]

outlaw it is

[leaden prairie]

the "end boss" we tested on ptr is kinda cool

[chrome palm]

That type of vibe wow does really well, reminded me a little of Antorus

Giant hallways constructs and such

[lilac stag]

I hate the lack of attention and actual fixing of what’s broke / incomplete bullshit rework it got.

[steel zinc]

anyone got any early sims btw?

[lilac stag]

rogue just mid this season in general.

Sub still the most fun of the 3, but that’s not saying a whole lot

[swift tinsel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brittle plinth]

Sin is unplayable. it's like playing lock or spriest from melee with the fun turned down.

[tepid trellis]

if it speeds up prog, sure

dont think that will ever be the case tho

[brittle plinth]

Outlaw at least you're too busy to question if it's fun or not.

[tepid trellis]

no need to question it

it just isnt a fun playstyle for me

[lilac stag]

it’s better with the ks change, fibro say no way in hell I’m playing it for 3-4 hours straight.

[brittle plinth]

Fibromyalgia?

[lilac stag]

That would be Fibro yes

[pliant topaz]

ah yes max once again saying "looking like best raid evaaaaaaa" before patch comes out. somehow its worst patch evaaaaaaa. I wonder if next patch is gonna be best raid evaaaaaaa again

[lilac stag]

every tier. People get hyped in ptr (since they’re sick of being in the current raid for 16 weeks or wherever we are) then shit on the new raid after wards.

the only fight I enjoyed last tier was princess. For me this raid was visually (especially mechanics) a big upgrade. Fight were fun overall. Mugzee bombs were the biggest issue outside of their attempt to hide gally/tuning for last boss.

Subjective fun of course.

damn raid has a working slide in it.

[ripe flame]

Second to last boss on next raid looks visually enjoyable, but who knows how it'll work on mythic

[vale pine]

For sure

[hollow spear]

I mean what is he supposed to say tho

He wants to market rwf to his viewers

[lilac stag]

sub trickster most fun since dfa… then you realize all the underlying issues

[left ledge]

What’s the last tier everyone loved anyways

Nathria?

[hollow spear]

Saying the new raid looks like ass and encounters are boring isn't really good marketing

[left ledge]

But yeah that too

It is their job

[lilac stag]

For me BoD

[vestal escarp]

if it was fun in raid it wast outside

if it was fun outside raid it wasnt in raid

the curse of sub

so the answer is: ...

[lilac stag]

CN was shrouded by way to much negative shit.

[chrome palm]

yeah but sire being fun is more important than stupid covenant shit

[lilac stag]

also lol vision issues on sire d

[hollow spear]

If their class sucks in/during a raid, people usually like it less, even though it might be a great raid for others

[swift tinsel]

Paladin dropping Ashen would shroud ground effects lol

[pliant topaz]

idk about tier, but my time playing wow only bosses I thought were actually cool were princess, fire boomie (already forgot the name), and early taros (rock dude thingy - like week 1 and 2 when it was tuned really nicely)

[swift tinsel]

Mythic hungering destroyer almost torched our guild

[ripe flame]

Tindral?

[pliant topaz]

yea

I had fun progging that boss

until around pull 500 kekw

[ripe flame]

Epic fight brings me PTSD. But somehow I have good memories too

[fallow nimbus]

It has what?

[pliant topaz]

it just was giga exciting the whole time

there was like not a single second that felt like hitting a target dummy

[ripe flame]

That is true

[lilac stag]

There is a slide in the casino you can use

[pliant topaz]

every boss has just these weird 20-30 seconds that oyu just hit a target dummy

same with princess

every second you wre doing something

dodgeing orbs, or being pulled, or dodging daggers, or ground or w/e

[fallow nimbus]

We never played that part

[pliant topaz]

every other boss I thought was really really not great

[lilac stag]

You have

[hollow spear]

I mean, what game consistently lives up to your standard, Armin?

[ripe flame]

I have the feeling Nexus King will be similar for better or worse

[fallow nimbus]

Speed pot and go

[lilac stag]

Being in melee also takes away a lot from the design aspect imo

[hollow spear]

People would probably crash out quite quickly if all encounters were high pace

[pliant topaz]

thats called bad design

"cant think of making it a way interesting for them where they can do it"

fuck it, just let em hit a target dummy

ranged do everything

nice, now i can go spend the next 7:30 hours relaxing at wokr

[lilac stag]

That’s the game though. You’re stuck with x fov which is standing up the bosses asshole 90% of the time

[pliant topaz]

not true though. the bosses i mentioned all had things for melee to do

thats what made them fun

[ripe flame]

The burnout could be crazy if we had a lot of intense fights per tier tho

[hollow spear]

Yup

[lilac stag]

Gally was nice as far as being able to be more than a dick hair away from the boss to hit it

[hollow spear]

Give us acro back

[lilac stag]

but that’s a combat design issue

[pliant topaz]

i dont really agree

[lilac stag]

you’d kill raiding

[pliant topaz]

again, i dont really agree but to each their own

[lilac stag]

push your self to top 10 raiding and let me know how those bosses feel

While programming WAs on the fly.

[pliant topaz]

what

LMFAO

[swift tinsel]

You mean having someone do that and only that

[pliant topaz]

tht made 0 sense btw. if youre imlpying top 10 wuold burn out, then that wouldnt kill raiding as you said

[swift tinsel]

Like a lot of the top guilds have

[ripe flame]

I don't know if It'd be good or bad but It'd definitely be something

[pliant topaz]

if you impluy top 10 would burn out, theyve said legit every tier they wish they had all hard bosses

but also, a lot of issue with raiding is farm is beyond awful

[lilac stag]

I’m saying you would

[pliant topaz]

idk many people who enjoy farm

[pliant topaz]

oh no! i dont enjoy it, then i wont do it

ill let those who enjoy it do it

[lilac stag]

Not some gamers getting paid to level 8 alts

[hollow spear]

The playerbase that - imo - would melt is the midcore and below

[ripe flame]

Yea probably

[pliant topaz]

maybe, it is a casual game after all

[lilac stag]

And that’s way more the 1% than not of mythic raiders

[swift tinsel]

Idk the last couple tiers felt like they just kinda fell over

As a mostly-AoTC guild

[pliant topaz]

but also, i think its more than possible to make hard stuff for people who wana do it

then nerf it

then allow people who wanna do that, to revert the nerfs in raid

idk

theres options

[hollow spear]

Yeah but heroic is not the environment Armin is talking about ig

[swift tinsel]

Or a toggle like they’ve had previously

[pliant topaz]

so people who dont wanna do the non nerfed, dont have to

not sure why the hard mode isnt there

[lilac stag]

They can’t make the current shit work bug free.

Going to expect them to maintain 2 of the same instances

[pliant topaz]

but yeah going into raid once a week and just hitting a target dummy for 3 minutes at a time until 1 boss that makes me need to do something is not my idea of paying $xx a month to have fun

[lilac stag]

Good luck

[pliant topaz]

you alreayd havea woprking version what

the intial non nerfed

u already have that

u dont need to keep and maintain something new

idk

[lilac stag]

You’re giving them way too much credit

[hollow spear]

I don't see any other game doing that in the space. WoW definitely lost in quality, but there's unfortunately not too much competition pushing the envelope...

[pliant topaz]

but yeah maybe designing bosses with hard and easy mechanics is too much work for them

[lilac stag]

Which sub thing broke this patch?!?

oh look outlaw got fixed.

[pliant topaz]

its better for them to spend their budget on max and other influencers to pretend the patch is not gonna be shit

than to spend that money to make the patch not shit

200iq move classic

[hollow spear]

It's cheaper

[pliant topaz]

idk how much tehyre paying the

m

[hollow spear]

And you don't have to pay Max much to do that

[pliant topaz]

but i dont think things are gonna get better for blizz

[hollow spear]

They have their event

Which they market

[pliant topaz]

after the recent microsoft layoffs

i have friends who are now thinking of leaving the company

(when previosuly they loved it, and wanted to stay there for their whole career)

[chrome palm]

what kinda business strategy is it when you buy out every company and then fire everyone

because it isnt very successful

[pliant topaz]

and I doubt new talent would want to join such a shit show

[swift tinsel]

Wouldn’t blame them, heard some projects that were super popular in the Xbox office got mothballed bc of the layoffs

So no sense at all of job security

[lilac stag]

Trying to bring in work visa cheaper.

[pliant topaz]

its not just them buddy

many roles are being replaced

across all levels of tech

but also bluizz didnt buy activision for wow

wow was mostly a bonus

they wanted cod and candy crush or w/e the fuck that was

[keen dome]

Yeah, the CoD stocks and King's stuff which prints a gross amount of money

And probably the huge library of old IP's and shit.

[pliant topaz]

probably yeah

its not really the game itself if u ask me

they might be thinking oooh apples doing this movie thingy and its successful for them

maybe we cna do that too with our IPs

pog

lets get the IP

[keen dome]

Consolidation of the market under them of the most popular brands (Kings stuff, CoD, etc) ye

[pliant topaz]

just a thought idk

[keen dome]

Big IP, big brands

[pliant topaz]

but tech is lowkey cooked

we'll see if it gets better